Good Morning,
In the last week, we have seen a number of strange occurrences in Scottish Football, which if taken together might just point to a very different land than the one we were lead to believe we live in just two short years ago.
First of all there was the report from a firm of well known accountants which pronounced that a significant number of Scottish Football Clubs had, in fact, sold more season tickets for this coming season than they had in the course of the last several years.
Then we had the spectacle of the National team travelling to Wembley and playing very well AND being cheered on by a very large travelling support who appear to have been full of fun and who acquitted themselves well in the big smoke.
This morning I read that today’s match at Pittodrie is a sell out — with the old stadium being packed to the rafters for the visit of Celtic. This is the first time that Aberdeen have been able to sell out the fixture for some 6 years!
Not only that, various Celtic supporting websites have lead with articles saying that the return of a strong Aberdeen and Dundee United are to be welcomed– in fact not only welcomed but positively wished for.
In contrast, stories abound about the in fighting on the Ibrox Board. There are surreptitious share dealings and all sorts of company jockeying being deployed by the rival factions who are trying to gain control of The Rangers. Further, there is the suggestion from some well informed parties that not only will Ibrox and the Albion be sold and leased back to the club to generate much needed immediate cash, but that Murray Park has been sold off completely and will no longer be available to The Rangers for any purpose whatsoever!
Clearly, there are big troubles at the club which will not assist in the stated intention of rising to the very top in Scottish Football.
In between all of this, the debate goes on about Campbell Ogilvie, Press manipulation, the correspondence between Media House and the SFA, and between The SFA and Ibrox re the relationship between Charlie Green and Craig Whyte and so on.
Standing with my business hat on, I looked at all of this and wondered what it all meant, and pretty quickly reached the conclusion that we are now in a time of supreme opportunity for some of the clubs in Scottish Football—- particularly Aberdeen FC.
There is a view abroad, that in the absence of the “Strong Rangers” that Celtic Football Club will win the SPFL title for almost evermore — or at least until they are toppled from the top spot by the rise of a strong Rangers club somewhere towards the end of this decade or early in the next– because we are assured that they will be back– in one form or another– in a rather Arnold Schwarzenegger like fashion.
That return or initial rise if you like– its timing and its manner— is dependent on a number of things– not least the exit strategy of Charlie Green and his cohorts.
If it is true that The Rangers are going to part company with Ibrox and the Albion, that they have taken on a loan of funds which attract a rate of interest that amounts to 15% per annum, and that there are set figures for buying the old ( and decaying ) stadium back any time soon, and that they have yet again hawked the season ticket money, then the already flawed Ibrox business plan is burdened even more by interest and rent payments of an additional £3M per annum and rising!
It should also be noted that the accounts for old co from the mid naughties onwards boasted that season ticket sales, merchandising, corporate hospitality and so on had reached unprecedented levels—- but—- the club still did not make an operating profit without strange internals transactions such as the repurchase of media rights which added £15M on to the P&L’s AND the sale of Jean Alain Boomsong!
Accordingly, the current position will not make for good financial reading.
So– let’s presume that in the current climate Celtic are out of sight and will always be champions for ever and a day. What do the rest of the clubs say in the absence of the Ibrox club without whom they have been told they will perish?
Well, If I were in charge of Aberdeen FC I would look out across a city with an inherent population of some 220,000 souls sitting in a county which takes the population up by another 40,000 or so. I would note that the compact city also houses two universities and a number of colleges — all of which attract visitors to the city— and that its position as the oil capital of Europe also draws in a substantial number of itinerant workers.
Further, personal knowledge shows that many who studied at Aberdeen University or Robert Gordon’s in the 80’s left the city as Aberdeen FC fans and no matter where they have ended up in life they still make the journey back to Pittodrie when they can– especially in good times!
Alas, however, Aberdeen has not enjoyed ” Good Times” of late— in fact not really since ……….. the arrival of David Murray at Ibrox!
If you cast your mind back to the pre Murray era, Aberdeen were a force not only in Scotland but Europe as the recent nostalgia re Gothenburg has reminded us.
The city has an economic micro climate which suggests that it can ride economic hardship better than most and so all things considered this current period provides a great opportunity for the Dons.
Unlike Dundee United, Hearts, and Hibs, Aberdeen FC sits in a large one team conurbation and should be on the doorstep of a populace which can fill Pittodrie every single week …… IF that fan base can be motivated.
And there lies the rub– how do you get a notoriously fickle fan base out of the armchair and into the stadium?
The late Bob Crampsey once described Pittodrie by saying ” And there are the masses of Aberdeen fans, masquerading as rows and rows of Empty seats!” yet in their heydey an Aberdeen crowd on a visit to Glasgow were among the noisiest– and to this football fans eyes — the scariest ( in a good sense ) supports to be seen.
Well, at this juncture, Derek McInnes and team need only look at every other football club in the land ( bar Celtic ) and determine that come next May those others will be below them in the league. If Aberdeen maintain a strong league run keeping everyone behind them then there is the possibility of a huge revenue swing in favour of the Dons– such a swing that would put them in an even stronger position for the following year.
Further, Aberdeen are a European name. Perhaps a European name from yesteryear and not the recent past, but the pedigree is there and as such there will be those who remember the heady European Nights both home and away. Reviving those memories and that reputation– at least to an extent– is not beyond the club, and with no disrespect to Motherwell and St Johnstone both of whom are liable to lose key players or even a manager between seasons, Aberdeen may just be of a size to consolidate each year rather than scramble to maintain the momentum of one good season which comes along every now and then.
Financial management and football rewards can go hand in hand when combined properly, and of all the clubs in Scotland who can benefit from a level playing field in terms of proper football governance, Aberdeen FC are uniquely placed in my opinion.
That is not so say that The Arabs, or the Hibees or anyone else cannot benefit– on the contrary— but the Dons are the most obvious candidates in terms of potential structure to really motor forward and regain a by gone status.
Such a situation, and the recognition of that potential, should be borne in mind by all at Celtic Football Club, as last year they struggled for a period in the league while they concentrated on their European exploits. If Celtic want to go further and further in Europe ( and why shouldn’t they ) they will have to be wary of any club which is capable of reigniting its fortunes from a lowly position or a position of having to look back at glory and potential glory rather than looking forward.
Further, with the way things are being organised at Ibrox, there is absolutely no guarantee ( some would say likelihood ) that an eventual challenge to a perceived dominance by Celtic will come from that quarter, and life in the top flight for any returning Rangers could prove very difficult if the likes of Aberdeen get their act together and start to produce the type of home grown team of old.
For now, I sense a degree of optimism about the Dons– not just on the playing front either. They have a fan base, they have a business model and a good young manager, and any comparative business exercise must conclude that they have every chance of rising above most of their rivals in the league, in terms of revenue, in terms of brand development and business expansion.
If I were an Aberdeen fan I would like to think positive and be ambitious in this climate, whilst at the same time casting an eye back to the days when they were top of the tree.
As one Aberdeen supporting ( but now Edinburgh based ) friend put it to me:
” Ah, those were the days my friend, those were the days……………”
Lord Wobbly says:
August 29, 2013 at 6:02 am
It really is galling that no-mark clubs like Arsenal and Man City are given such a helping hand
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Galling indeed your Lordship. I am surrounded by Arsenal fans and they simply deride their own side, and have done for a couple of seasons!
As for SAF’s “noisy neighbours”, the less said the better,
briggsbhoy says:
August 28, 2013 at 10:51 pm
51 0 Rate This
Celtic reaching the CL group stages is good for Scottish football because
+ it raises the profile of the game in Scotland
+ With greater interest there is more chance of sponsorship, TV deals etc
+ It gives teams in the SPFL the opportunity to test themselves against a team who is playing in CL
+ Supporters of any team want to see players who play in CL so as Celtic play away from home it should increase crowds
+ Teams in the SPFL benefit financially
+ The co-efficient improves
+ It will hopefully attract more quality player not just to Celtic but to Scotland
+ It may encourage more good Scottish players to stay in SPFL
—————
Well said Briggs. Cannot believe the guff you hear from people asking how this helps Scottish football. You’ve got to wonder about the sanity of people who tweet, text and call sports shows who cannot see how success is good. Btw, good post-match from NL. A bit controversial perhaps, but on the money. Glad he singled out ITV.
Danish Pastry says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:40 am
Well said Briggs. Cannot believe the guff you hear from people asking how this helps Scottish football. You’ve got to wonder about the sanity of people who tweet, text and call sports shows who cannot see how success is good. Btw, good post-match from NL. A bit controversial perhaps, but on the money. Glad he singled out ITV.
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Celtic fans are of course going to be delighted to be through the play-off rounds and I was happy to see them through, but there is a flip-side here. How does all the extra income to Celtic fit with BRTH’s blog – Mr Green and Opportunity Knocks— For Aberdeen? The difficulty of having a competitive league with such an imbalance of resources doesn’t go away, even if the success is honestly pursued.
Good Morning.
Blu
Celtic’s Victory last night has no effect at all on my theme.
Yes it will mean a boost in money for Celtic which is not available to the rest of the teams in Scotland, however my point was that a city and a county like Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire has a significant population which can support a top flight football club.
Compared to all the other clubs in the SPFL ( other than Celtic ) Aberdeen have the ability and the potential resources to lead the rest, get well into Europe, reinstate their European credentials and boost the overall image of Scottish football — and the image of Scottish Football in Europe away from any team from Glasgow.
Aberdeen should and will strive for that under Derek McInnes.
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To other matters but still on a somewhat Celtic theme:
There is a very good article in the Guardian this morning, reporting on last night’s match.
However, of greater interest for this forum is a comment that was posted below the article — and I repeat it verbatim below.
Apparently, it is from a Southampton fan whose words more or less speak for themselves.
It is a damning condemnation of Sports reporting and indeed editing in Scotland — and it is a very interesting view from afar.
See what you think
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You know, I never liked Celtic.
I can’t say I’ve ever paid much attention to Scottish football, but when I did I found myself generally pulling for Rangers. There’s no reason for this, nothing that either Celtic or Rangers did… it simply happened. I instinctively pulled for Oxford in the boatrace as well, so perhaps I’m biased in favour of blue. I don’t know… but regardless of the reason, the result was that I simply never really liked Celtic.
That didn’t change when Lennon became manager. All I saw from him was the aggressive photos at the top of articles about Scottish football, his face frozen in a seeming rictus of anger and rage. He looked to me to be the embodiment of the worst of Scottish football… the snarling aggression, the rampant sectarian schism. He didn’t seem to be a very likable chap.
And then I realised that that was all I saw from him.
Every article, every photo, it was always him being angry. None where he was contemplative, none where he was anything but full of rage. And I started to suspect that this wasn’t an accurate depiction (shock, horror, I know). That there was an agenda there, that Neil Lennon being angry got hits and sold copy. And that there was more to him then that. I watched some interviews. He wasn’t the Dali Lama reborn but neither was he the frothing at the mouth rage monster one might have suspected. He was a former football player and a current manager… one who was clearly passionate about his team and his job… but nothing more than one would expect from managers across the footballing world.
And then I became aware of the other things. Of him being assaulted and knocked unconscious by two Rangers fans. Of the bullets and parcel bombs sent to him. Of the fact he was attacked while on the pitch, simply for doing his job. And while ‘sympathy’ is perhaps a patronising word, I started to feel something akin to that for him and for Celtic. And a certain sense of shame that however indirectly, I had bought in to the media portrayal that made such things more likely.
Celtic are in an awkward position domestically. The lack of an effective rival means that even playing badly they should comfortably win the league. With the league almost a formality they’re likewise expected to win all the cups; little praise for doing so but heavily mocked if they don’t. What that leads to is their seasons being almost entirely defined by how they perform in Europe… and because they have to win their qualification matches, it means their entire season basically came down to these two nights. Lose and, however unfairly, it would be hard to see anything else being an anti-climax, at least to an outsider like me.
There were lots of stories to come from last years Champion’s League. Bayern making it over the final hurdle. Dortmond showing that they could transplant their domestic quality to the European level (if not maintain both at the same time). The continued travails of Manchester City. Barcelona being written off time and time again… and then finally cracking as even Messi’s injured brilliance couldn’t save them. Jose’s Real Madrid once again coming close but not quite getting over the line. Malaga making a brave last stand, refusing to go quietly into an UEFA ordered night.
But Celtic’s was the one that stood out for me. Their eventual exit, soundly outplayed and beaten by Juventus (especially with the complaining afterwards) may not have been glorious, but the journey there truly was. They may have comfortably qualified for the group stage but who expected them to get through a group containing Spartak Moscow, Benfica and the mighty Barcelona? And to do so while bloodying Barcelona’s nose and beating Spartak Moscow home and away? It was heroic, gutsy football, the sort of football that is (relatively) low on the clinical brilliance that can be so effective but uninspiring and high on the blood and guts aspect that gets the heart beating and the throats cheering.
But fairly or unfairly (and I suspect the answer is unfairly), the success of last season means expectations have been raised for this season. Not making the group stage would have been a massive disappointment. And Celtic would have to do this despite losing some of their key players, the players who can add that bit of quality and class. It could have all ended tonight… but Celtic, in that heroic, thunderous way, made sure it didn’t.
It could still all go wrong. They could lose every match in the group stage, be humiliated night in and night out, sent home with their tails between their legs. But I’m going to enjoy the journey and, seeing as I don’t support any of the teams involved, cheer for Celtic every step of the way.
I know that doesn’t mean much, and I know it means even less to people who genuinely support Celtic.
But it means something to me.
I see courtesy of Bert Kassies excellent site Scotlands Euro co efficient thanks to 8.5 points from Celtic and 2.5 from Saints is now 2.75 and 8th in Europe above Italy.
broganrogantrevinoandhogan says:
August 29, 2013 at 10:05 am
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BRTH, thanks for taking the time to respond. I enjoyed the blog you posted and agreed with the broader theme that a well-organised Aberdeen can do better. It still doesn’t mean that we’ll have a competitive league – monopoly is just as bad as duopoly to me. Interesting piece from the Guardian, thanks.
blu says:
August 29, 2013 at 9:41 am
I genuinely don’t know the answer to your query re competitiveness.
I do know what definitely isn’t the answer though. The SFA and their clingers on (and in their disgusting support of the conflicted CO I include all other 41 clubs in that ) all still seem to disagree with me. Fair do’s they can have their saturday afternoons and I will have mine.
(Sorry Blu, just read your further comment so permit me an edit). A monopoly is worse than a duoploly? Perhaps if you are one of the previous duo. More importantly, what is even worse than a Monopoly? A contrived situation to get back to the duopoly using corruption, misinformation and a rather large sum of my wages for the last 20 years or so. IMHO.
blu says:
August 29, 2013 at 9:41 am
I empathise with your comment on the imbalance of resources however as I highlighted if Celtic are doing well in CL they will attract a large travelling support and hopefully the home team will benefit financially from this. They may even sell more corporate package, advertising and bring in a larger home support to these games.
I have always been a firm believer that to create a great football team does not require vast some of money, there are plenty young Scots kids out there that have the potential to be fantastic footballers. We just need the right system and coaches to encourage and develop these kids. Unfortunately however many are are lost to the game sometimes early on because they are not encourages and supported by parents, they develop other interests or they are put off by those involved with football. Both my teenage boys play and I am out 3 or 4 times a week at present. On Tuesday past I stood shaking my head as I heard the oppositions coach scream words such as “f’n prick” on decisions that went against his team towards the referee. This was a game for 14 year olds and its at times like this you realise why some parents don’t encourage kids to play football, there are two many arseholes at the sharp end.
BRTH, it was an interesting article as spotted by a CQN poster. Glad you took his advice to C&P rather than attempt a link.
DP, I never heard the full interview by NL but I just had a listen there and I must say I agree with most of what he said.
Smugas says:
August 29, 2013 at 10:27 am
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Smugas, be clear – I don’t want a return to the previous duopoly. I’m stuck in the same position as you with regard to what can be done to create genuine competition. The American model for its major sports and soccer does look more competitive than European football. However, as you note, (at least) 41 clubs in Scotland are happy enough to support current arrangements, so there’s little prospect of revolution.
blu says:
August 29, 2013 at 9:41 am
7 3 Rate This
… The difficulty of having a competitive league with such an imbalance of resources doesn’t go away, even if the success is honestly pursued.
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Indeed, but Celtic’s current status in Scottish and European football should be a huge positive in the persuit of excellence. As briggs mentioned, an immediate benefit is for the other teams to test themselves against Champions League opposition. You can improve by playing against better opponents. In non-footballing terms, Andy Murray went to Spain to train as a 15-year-old. At the time, his pal Nadal trained with the then world number 1, Carlos Moya – Andy trained with his mother. His chance to test himself against and train with the best raised his level. Look at him now.
Celtic are currently looking at an Icelander, I believe, and also a Finn. Both small countries, in fact, Iceland’s entire population is roughly the same as Edinburgh. As has been mentioned, Scotland has talented kids waiting for opportunity. They could be going to Celtic instead of these kids from other small countries.
Financial imbalance? The whole of the Premier League needs to be open to more change. Four-times-a-year meetings are killing interest, perhaps also among the players too. The league must be enlarged. But the opposition is too poor? Well, ok, relegate three from a bigger league. New teams coming up will benefit, financially and blood youth. The imbalance needs to be addressed by all 12 top teams. No reason why Morton, Dunfermline, Hamilton, QoS, Raith, Falkirk and others don’t deserve a crack at the to top flight, if for no other reason then the financial one. The Jags are already showing us what those below the Premier League can bring to the table.
Re the article posted by BRTH above. I am always interested and intrigued by the use of pictures to accompany news stories and how they influence public opinion or perceptions of companies or individuals. Ex PM Gordon Brown was a fine example because more often than not we were always given pictures of him looking glum. If there was a headline the picture often had no connection with the story, but it fits whatever the agenda you are driving get it in there. If he was given bad news today on any given day about interest rates, quick get a picture of him looking pensive and glum and the public often believe that picture was taken at the moment he was given that news. It was the same with NL he always had to be looking like that annoying we ginger bloke.
Briggsbhoy says:
August 29, 2013 at 10:32 am
Hear what you say but without getting all ‘class stereo-typical’ the fact remains that despite the rising costs football is still a working class game and bawdy language is unfortunately still the norn.
However the problem starts right at the very top.
It is not so long people were trying to defend Neil Lennon for calling an opposition player a ‘fucking fanny’.
The view from many, including pundits and the like, was that there were more important things to worry about.
It just ‘one of those things’ we have to accept.
However the language and attitude displayed by your U14s boy’s opposition coach and the coach of our country’s representatives in the CL group stages is exactly the type of thing that has my wife saying she is not overly keen on my young lad devoting too much time to football.
IMHO whether it be a top flight coach or someone taking an U14s team the ruling authorities need to crack down on such behaviour otherwise we risk narrowing the pool of potential players even further. Many guys are doing a great job but there are unfortunately those who are developing players that will end up being more interested in getting in the ref’s face, taking men out and rolling around claiming to be injured after a tackle as opposed to developing skill, speed, strength, stamina and sportsmanship.
And I say this as a parent who continually has to hold his tongue on the sidelines at Fun 4s..
@ Briggs
I think this is the type of photograph that doesn’t match the story.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/celtic-star-mark-wilson-insists-1083289
If torrehohnbhoy is reading can he remind DK54 on the LSE site of the AIM rule 18
An AIM company must prepare a half-yearly report in respect of the six month period from
the end of the financial period for which financial information has been disclosed in its
admission document and at least every subsequent six months thereafter (apart from the
final period of six months preceding its accounting reference date for its annual audited
accounts). All such reports must be notified without delay and in any event not later than
three months after the end of the relevant period.
The information contained in a half-yearly report must include at least a balance sheet, an
income statement, a cash flow statement and must contain comparative figures for the
corresponding period in the preceding financial year. Additionally the half-yearly report
must be presented and prepared in a form consistent with that which will be adopted in the
AIM company’s annual accounts having regard to the accounting standards applicable to
such annual accounts.
Apologies as this is probably common knowledge but can someone advise of where the Rangers cash funds are kept,share cash ,season book cash ,sponsors cash and any other income ,is this all banked in the same bank or are there different accounts for each income stream and how are wages, invoices etc paid out,only asking
19. FIFA says:
August 29, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Apologies as this is probably common knowledge but can someone advise of where the Rangers cash funds are kept,share cash ,season book cash ,sponsors cash and any other income ,is this all banked in the same bank or are there different accounts for each income stream
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Thats easy, it’ll be kept in Imran’s mums account 😉
FIFA says:
August 29, 2013 at 12:34 pm
1 0 Rate This
Apologies as this is probably common knowledge but can someone advise of where the Rangers cash funds are kept,share cash ,season book cash ,sponsors cash and any other income ,is this all banked in the same bank or are there different accounts for each income stream and how are wages, invoices etc paid out,only asking
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planning a raid?
or do you have concerns about a fire in the building destroying it all?
The ‘Celtic Debt’ story ia a classic PR stunt. The purpose is to normalise errant or deviant behaviour. It’s more usually known as ‘they’re a’ at it!’
Recent examples have been a player betting on his own team, the MSM, Ally McCoist and others have been vigorously ‘naming & shaming’ (or threatening to), in order to minimise the gravity of the offence.
The SFA should demand to see ally’s list because either
Officials on the list could be described, if guilty, as match fixing
Or
Officials on the list are innocent and are being falsely accused
Or
The list is actually a blank sheaf of papers and ally mccoist could be charged with bringing the game into disrepute
I know which option my money’s on!!!!!!
davythelotion says:
August 29, 2013 at 12:48 pm
I know which option my money’s on!!!!!!
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Ah but what odds did you get ❓ 😉
davythelotion says:
August 29, 2013 at 12:48 pm
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will be interesting to hear Blacks defence and if Ally’s List will feature in that defence.
Or even if some kind of whataboutery is brought up in defence – if so, then i hope the SFA act to see this list or proof. And if not provided, then the player/manager/club should be heavily punished for this nonsense.
Someone should have a word with this club and tell them to stop acting like angst ridden teenagers – they are barely out of nappies, long way to go before they can act like that!
I have quite substantial debts, my mortgae for example is a reasonably large number. However I never miss a monthly instalment, my income is more than enough to cover the regular payments on all of my debts and the realisable value of my assets easily outweighs the debts secured against them.
I also have a fairly generous overdraft facility. My bank account runs in credit and I never actually have to use the overdraft. It’s nice to know it’s there if I ever need it though. For quick easy access to cash if the need should suddenly arise.
So substantial debts and a big overdraft facility, but I sleep the sleep of the just.
The Celtic achievement is terrific for Scottish football and I fully empathise with the Lennon rant about the criticisms of his Club.The reporting UK wide has been mean,patronising and negative.This result can only have a positive impact on our game and there are clubs,not solely Aberdeen who have stepped up to the mark of recent.ICT is the obvious one but the league in general can and will improve.
Not only a great night for Celtic,but also a great night for Scottish football.
FIFA says:
August 29, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Apologies as this is probably common knowledge but can someone advise of where the Rangers cash funds are kept,share cash ,season book cash ,sponsors cash and any other income ,is this all banked in the same bank or are there different accounts for each income stream and how are wages, invoices etc paid out, only asking.
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I have a recollection that when the story about the disappearing IPO cash broke that someone – possibly Green – said the £10 million kitty was in Brian’s safe. I remember thinking then that’s a pretty foolish thing to say in terms of security.
I hope that the alarm company for Ibrox is getting paid as it would be a great pity if someone saw an opportunity to nick the remains of the spiv swag. No doubt – like the bus – we can guess who would be blamed and what better way to save the club than another flotation to ensure the ‘enemies’ don’t succeed in their dastardly plans to destroy T’Rangers.
In the interests of fairness, clarity and getting to the route of it….
can anyone clarify exactly what the claim is about Celtic having £34M of debt to the CO-OP
and can they then clarify the situation regards that debt.
We go through the finances of RFC and Sevco acutely enough, surely the Celtic finances deserve the same scrutiny if “someone” is raising a red flag – even if only to debunk the myth.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
August 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm
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In the interests of balance I have to agree.
On the plus side the situation might not be as opaque as some.
@NTHM
I found this three-page thread on one of the Celtic forums that had an understandable breakdown of the figures:
http://www.talkceltic.net/forum/showthread.php?t=136553&page=2
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
August 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm
5 1 Rate This
In the interests of fairness, clarity and getting to the route of it….
can anyone clarify exactly what the claim is about Celtic having £34M of debt to the CO-OP
and can they then clarify the situation regards that debt.
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As I understand it, Celtic have a £34m agreed overdraft facility with Co-op bank. That is NOT a debt of £34m. It means that Celtic can, if they choose, overdraw up to that amount without prior agreement. I have no idea what Celtic’s current balance with the Co-op Bank is today, whether credit or debit. Given recent transfer activity, it is likely to be healthily in credit, but of course that’s just an educated guess on my part.
A lot of varied, interesting and thought provoking topics on TSFM over the last 24 hours: great stuff.
But it wouldn’t do if everyone agreed with each other, so here’s a few brief opinions (and they are only that) on several points raised:-
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briggsbhoy says:
Supporters of any team want to see players who play in CL so as Celtic play away from home it should increase crowds
+++++++
I think that home attendances drop when Celtic (and in the past, exRangers) are visiting on league business, due to a variety of factors, including lunch time kick offs, and the reality of being unable to win the actual league, plus some other issues which I’ll avoid on here.
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broganrogantrevinoandhogan says:
Compared to all the other clubs in the SPFL ( other than Celtic ) Aberdeen have the ability ……
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Aberdeen and their fans have seen many false dawns: to this point, this season, I see no reason that things will vastly improve for them. Many clubs, including the Dons, now appear to be wearing more sensible financial hats, and it will take a number of seasons for large debts to be serviced before any side can consistently improve. European progress for any other than Celtic is unlikely for a period of time.
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blu says:
monopoly is just as bad as duopoly to me
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Totally agree with this, but we’re stuck with it.
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Smugas says:
The SFA and their clingers on (and in their disgusting support of the conflicted CO I include all other 41 clubs in that)
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I think that many club officials are as misinformed, probably moreso, as the Scottish MSM. Speaking to those locally, most are dismissive of any imminent problems occurring at Ibrox, for example. And those who appear a bit more clued up tend to think a) they have their own financial problems to deal with first or b) leaving Ogilvie, Regan and Doncaster in position means if and when things do go wrong again, then they have to clear up their own mess or fall on the sword.
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briggsbhoy says
On Tuesday past I stood shaking my head as I heard the oppositions coach scream words such as “f’n prick” on decisions that went against his team towards the referee.
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This is an ongoing problem. My children are now grown up, but I recall one league set up in east central Scotland attempting to ban all parents from attending their children’s fixtures. Obviously, that would defeat the purpose for many families!
I know that in some leagues, the club officials have responsibility for, and pay penalties where parents/spectators step over the mark. But obviously not in your lad’s league, briggsbhoy, since it is the coach who is being abusive. However, I think that is a more workable solution, if the referee reports the club, and the club lose points or is fined.
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And quite a bit about “absurdity of UEFA’s seedings” (Lord Wobbly’s phrase).
++++++++
Yes. Again, the points/seeding system appears ‘absurd’, but it is there to protect the television companies from receiving a product they paid for which contains, in their minds, inferior ingredients: they want the most marketable sides to qualify and reach the later stages.
And in Scotland (the quintessence of football administration, as we know), a seeding system is operated in cup competitions and has been for a long number of years. Only today, the SPFL used it to avoid what they see as their ‘big guns’ clashing with each other. Dare I say it, an unofficial system of ping pong and golf balls used to keep Celtic apart from a now defunct club in cup draws. 😈 😉
Oh, and in case anyone thinks I’ve been churlish, well done to Celtic last night! 😛
28. Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
August 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm
As I understand it Celtic have a loan from the Co-op which is secured against the property at Livingstone. In addition they have an overdraft facility, which they need during periods when cash flow is an issue, for example in years without European football towards the end of the season.
There is nothing even remotely surprising or untowards about this, an issue has been made about it to deflect from other people’s financial problems.
Was on the phone to my wee maw she’s 80 now and still likes her football we discussed the Celtic win and what it meant to them and scottish football.she went on to tell me that a new tenant had just moved in to the sheltered housing complex and was happy his neighbour had invited him in to watch the game as the new tenants t.v wasn’t set up properly.it all ended in tears however as the host decided with 5 minutes to go that he wasn’t for watching anymore of this match it obviously wasn’t panning out as expected and the guest had to leave.havent heard my wee maw laugh so much since my da fell down the stairs .much like james Forrest,s 92nd winner priceless…….
Tif Finn says:
August 29, 2013 at 1:46 pm
There is nothing even remotely surprising or untowards about this, an issue has been made about it to deflect from other people’s financial problems.
===========================================================
Spot on. And if there was anything amiss then a quick look at Celtic’s audited annual accounts which have been submitted for decades without any breaks would reveal the problem.
Of course that recourse is not available for a certain team playing out of Ibrox and that should be a major concern to the deflectionists unless of course they are part of a PR exercise and not actually football fans who care deeply about the future of THEIR club.
NTHM – CFC accounts are available for all to see and pick apart here: http://www.celticfc.net/downloads/Annual%20Report%202012.pdf
Extract re. Co-op –
28 FINANCIAL INSTRUMENTS – Group and Company
…. The working capital of the Group and Company is funded largely by bank borrowings. The Group and Company has a £33.49m facility with the Co-operative Bank of which £12m is in the form of overdraft and £21.94m in long-term loans. While the nature of the overdraft results
in the application of a floating rate, the loans offer the possibility to lock into a longer-term interest rate. £10.97m (2011: £11.34m) of the loan facility is required to be drawn down for the term of the facility agreement. In 2011/12, fixed rate periods were each for three months and the average balance on the loans was £11.14m (2011: £11.53m). During the course of the year the Group had an average credit balance on the overdraft facility of £1.92m (2011: £4.93m). The average overdraft rate applicable during the year was 1.50% (2011: 1.50%) and the average loan rate 2.15 %, (2011: 2.00%). In terms of the overall risk management process, executive management liaise closely with advisers in managing the risk profile of the Group and Company. In times of interest rate volatility, executive management take advice as to the various instruments that may protect the Group and Company against increased costs, whether this be an interest rate cap, collar or other mechanism. No such mechanisms were utilised during the year nor in 2011.
Based on the average levels of debt in the year to 30 June 2012 it is estimated that a 1% increase in interest rates would result in a net increase in finance costs, and thus reduction in profit and equity of £0.11m (2011: £0.06m). The calculation in both years incorporates the terms and conditions of the agreement with the Co-operative Bank as noted above, the terms of which have not altered from 2011.
The bank loans and overdraft bear interest at LIBOR plus 1.125% and base rate plus 1.0% respectively, as was the case in the year ended 30 June 2011. The other loans of the Group and Company are interest free. It is the Group and Company policy to secure funding at the most cost-effective rates of interest available to the Group.
The maturity profile of the Group and Company’s financial liabilities at 30 June 2012 and 30 June 2011 and details of applicable interest rates on these liabilities are disclosed in Notes 24 and 25.
The Group achieves short-term liquidity flexibility through use of a bank overdraft. Of the available bank facilities of £33.94m (2011: £34.69m), of which £21.94m is represented by long-term loans and £12m by overdraft, £22.97m (2011: £23.34m) remains undrawn at the balance sheet date as follows:
Loans repayable within one year £375,000
Loans repayable between two and five years £1,500,000
Loans repayable in more than five years £9,094,000
Overdraft repayable on demand £12,000,000
Total £22,969,000
youcantbuyhistory says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:09 pm
Great to hear that your wee maw still has her sense of humour 🙂
Much better to make history rather than buy it because when you make it you can make sure it’s a history to be proud of rather than an unlucky dip rag-bag of the good, the bad and the evil 😆
Matthew Lindsay @MattLindsayET 18m
These included failure to disclose information and to provide correct information about incomes earned over a number of years.
Retweeted by Phil MacGiollaBhain
Expand
Matthew Lindsay @MattLindsayET 19m
King accepted liability in 41 counts of contravening Section 75 of the Income Tax Act in South Africa.
Retweeted by Phil MacGiollaBhain
Matthew Lindsay @MattLindsayET 15m
King will have to pay around £44 million. He said: “My experience should serve as an example to taxpayers.”
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharlotteFakes 4m
Worst administrators in the world (probably).
1. http://i.imgur.com/KvuXWnO.jpg
2. http://i.imgur.com/Q8hEWyL.jpg
3. http://i.imgur.com/xyxwwLr.jpg
Thanks Danish
that link explained it all nicely – So, Celtic have a £11M loan and they repay £1.5M a year and it is at 1.5% interest. Scary stuff. I guess selling Victor has cleared it then (if we had to!)
http://www.talkceltic.net/forum/showthread.php?t=136553&page=2
blu says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:20 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So Celtic have a loan facility of £33.94M and at the balance sheet date they had NOT used £22.969m of it and therefore owed the bank approx £11m.
The MORONS phoning onto SSB are therefore also IMBECILES. It’s a really crude attempt to create doubt about the financial position of Celtic based on nothing. JI’s better than that. Isn’t he?
blu says:
August 29, 2013 at 11:05 am
………………………………….
The only way I can see a competition becoming more competitive with a real possibility of another club winning the top division is to apply a handicap system..
Stick with me on this…
increasing revenue to other clubs does not guarantee competitive improvement.
Giving clubs a share of the revenue gained by one club from the CL will not guarantee improvement..
However…I think the following may work..
If a club wins the league by say 10 points then the following season have them start their league campaign by a deduction of between 50-100% of the winning margin….thus the league should become tighter…more competitive…more meaningful….more exciting….less predictable and…will produce different winners…
Celtic won the league by 16 points last season….starting on minus 8 or 10 or 12 this season would have made the whole league this year very interesting and every game a must win….instead of the…will we win it by April or March?
I can’t think of any other meaningful change that would inject as much interest or excitement in our top league right now?
Throwing money at it won’t work…we just don’t have enough to throw and it is unsustainable…
As a Celtic fan I don’t want to see my club win everything every year….that would become an almighty bore…and would kill Scottish football stone dead…thankfully other clubs are picking off the odd cup victory!
We need to think outside the circle to make more fans want to get out and watch the game we all love.
Drew Peacock says:
August 29, 2013 at 3:03 pm
blu says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:20 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JI’s better than that. Isn’t he?
…………………………………….
NO!
Paulmac2 says:
August 29, 2013 at 3:20 pm
Drew Peacock says:
August 29, 2013 at 3:03 pm
blu says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:20 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JI’s better than that. Isn’t he?
…………………………………….
NO!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
August 29, 2013 at 3:01 pm
Thanks Danish
that link explained it all nicely – So, Celtic have a £11M loan and they repay £1.5M a year and it is at 1.5% interest. Scary stuff. I guess selling Victor has cleared it then (if we had to!)
=============================================
That’s what’s owed out.
If you subtract what’s due in from debtors then the net debt is around £200k.I believe.
Grant Russell @STVGrant 12m
Neil Doncaster, Jul 25: “SPFL has created certainty for potential sponsors”. Aug 29: Admits uncertainty. http://bit.ly/142i3La
Drew Peacock says:
August 29, 2013 at 3:03 pm
I am sure that SSB are savvy enough not to give this Celtic in £34m DEBT nonsense much credence as if they were to promote a truly false picture of Celtic’s accounts (a plc), so this could get them a lawyers letter, as in theory the share price can be impacted by negative tripe like this.
Paulmac2 says:
August 29, 2013 at 3:07 pm
The only way I can see a competition becoming more competitive with a real possibility of another club winning the top division is to apply a handicap system..
Stick with me on this…
increasing revenue to other clubs does not guarantee competitive improvement.
Giving clubs a share of the revenue gained by one club from the CL will not guarantee improvement..
However…I think the following may work..
If a club wins the league by say 10 points then the following season have them start their league campaign by a deduction of between 50-100% of the winning margin….thus the league should become tighter…more competitive…more meaningful….more exciting….less predictable and…will produce different winners…
Celtic won the league by 16 points last season….starting on minus 8 or 10 or 12 this season would have made the whole league this year very interesting and every game a must win….instead of the…will we win it by April or March?
I can’t think of any other meaningful change that would inject as much interest or excitement in our top league right now?
Throwing money at it won’t work…we just don’t have enough to throw and it is unsustainable…
As a Celtic fan I don’t want to see my club win everything every year….that would become an almighty bore…and would kill Scottish football stone dead…thankfully other clubs are picking off the odd cup victory!
We need to think outside the circle to make more fans want to get out and watch the game we all love.
+++++++++++++
That would make the competition less of a sporting contest, and I doubt if many fans would go for it. Also UEFA/FIFA wouldn’t be happy with that.
And, thinking it through, it might mean a less able club qualifies as Scotland’s CL representatives, and presently, no club can make inroads in Europe apart from Celtic.
But, what about going back to sharing gate money?
ecobhoy says:
August 29, 2013 at 1:09 pm
Pity CG got his marching orders “again”, this could have been his next master stroke (money maker) for rebranding……….mmmm.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2403739/Meet-Tama-cat-Japanese-station-master-helped-save-railway-bankruptcy.html
Think superally must have misheard heard him when he said, 10 million in the kitty, lol ,because it turns out they inherited the “bagpuss” of cats (for us that remember bagpuss fix and mend things).
Another oldie……..ze plane , ze plane……yes, again pure fantasy island.
In true modern style , it looks like we are going to be in for the sequel. Silly me, I was always taught to learn from my mistakes.
Celtic’s financial affairs aren’t in question, to my knowledge, so why all this distraction…………..?
Let’s not entertain this, after all Celtic’s accounts are up to date and submitted when required.
Any sensible person must surely agree that it is much better to have a credit facility with a bank paying 1.5% interest on cash drawn during periods when no other income streams are available ( ie, close season) than going hat in hand to someone like Ticketus, who look for 25% of your ST books.
Dave King: R706 million or 24 months.
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Dave-King-must-pay-R706m-or-face-prison-20130829
Fit and proper!
fara1968 says:
August 29, 2013 at 12:17 pm
22 1 Rate This
@ Briggs
I think this is the type of photograph that doesn’t match the story.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/celtic-star-mark-wilson-insists-1083289
———————————————————————-
Know doubt the Scottish press photographers corps were/are well aware that a picture of Neil Lennon with his face contorted in some way was/is a gold ticket up there with the likes of Lady Di topless or Sarah Ferguson sucking someone’s toes. Doubtless they also knew the opposite was true of Walter and Ally – a picture of composure/dignity or your photo’s not worth tuppence.
With respect to what Celtic will earn from the CL here is my proposal based on Celtic’s diificulty in signing players and getting fit enough to qualify.
a) Move the season so that it starts at the end of February and ends in mid December. The transfer windows becomes Jan to March and June to Aug. This enables players required to qualify for CL to be in place for at least three months before the qualifying games and means the qualifying team hit the ground running with a settled team. It releases those players wanted by other clubs (perhaps desperately) who really want to go without the risk to CL entry that exists if they are held on to under current arrangement but sold in the summer. It does not mean CL qualification is certain but it sure removes the factors that created the pressure on Celtic this year.
b) In return for the move the qualifying club agree to a certain percentage of the CL income being set aside to be shared by the other SPFL clubs under ceratin conditions to ensure they are used for the betterment of Scottish football.
c) One of the conditions is a complete restructuring of the SFA under different leadership that will apply without fear or favour (and be seen to be doing so) a strict FFP policy tailored to meet the needs of the Scottish game and for that restructuring to be verifiably transparent and accountable to the SPFL clubs and their shareholders/supporters..
.
This would create a game that shared the rewards more equitably thus reducing the temptation to cheat or overspend whilst improving all round domestic competition.
If I were seeking election as President of The SFA I would be putting this foward as my policy. The incumbent cannot as what we now have is the failed product of his thinking at today’s SFA, who seem intent on restoring the old failed model as soon as they can engineer it..
I note the Guardian Live Champions League site describes those in Pot 4 ,including Celtic, as ‘cannon fodder’.Oh really? This attests to my previous post.Patronising and mean.
Scottish football is being provoked.
An interesting, if somewhat skewed, view by a TRFC supporter. I don’t doubt his/ her sincerity but the sense of victimhood is clear:
http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/HenrikVegetable/media/youmadhunbro_zps4bfb5cee.png.html
ecobhoy says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:16 pm
Audited accounts? What a novel concept!. It is the kind of thing The Rangers supporters should insist on.
wottpi says:
August 29, 2013 at 12:18 pm
AIM rule 18
An AIM company must prepare a half-yearly report in respect of the six month period from
the end of the financial period for which financial information has been disclosed in its
admission document and at least every subsequent six months thereafter (apart from the
final period of six months preceding its accounting reference date for its annual audited
accounts). All such reports must be notified without delay and in any event not later than
three months after the end of the relevant period.
The information contained in a half-yearly report must include at least a balance sheet, an
income statement, a cash flow statement and must contain comparative figures for the
corresponding period in the preceding financial year. Additionally the half-yearly report
must be presented and prepared in a form consistent with that which will be adopted in the
AIM company’s annual accounts having regard to the accounting standards applicable to
such annual accounts.
==============================================================
There are some issues which I have had difficulty getting my head round in terms of accounting dates and what requires to be provided to comply with AIM and Companies House requirements and I hope those with more detailed knowledge might be able to enlighten myself and possibly others.
The accounts in the Rangers AIM Prospectus cover the period from the Incorporation of TRFCL on 29 May 2012 until 31 August 2012. So my understanding of AIM Rule 18 would be that interim accounts would require to be submitted wrt Rangers International Football Club Plc for the period 1 September 2012 to 28 February 2013 and every 6 months thereafter.
However, the interim accounts for RIFC Plc issued in March 2013 covers the 7 month period until 31 December 2012 which means it presumably began on 31 May 2012 (NB incorporation date of TRFCL is 29/05/2012). I am left wondering whether the correct end date for the interim accounts for the purpose of AIM Rules is the end of December 2012 or the end of February 2013. Obviously this would affect the 6 monthly account presentation cycle to meet AIM requirements.
There is also the problem that the preparation of accounts for the AIM Prospectus and the Interim Accounts relies on the consolidation of the TRFCL accounts into that of the public holding company viz RIFC Plc.
This creates a problem for me when considering the submission of accounts to Companies House for RIFC Plc – will those accounts still have an element of consolidation from TRFCL in them? And how does that then affect the separate submission of accounts for TRFCL?
The finalised accounts cut-off date for RIFC Plc’s initial accounts for Companies House is 16 May 2014 which is 18 months after the initial incorporation of the company on 16 November 2012 with 18 months being the maximum period allowed to a new company to prepare its initial accounts from the incorporation date.
However things are further complicated by a statement included in the half-yearly financial report for the seven months consolidated accounts ended 31 December 2012 of RIFC Plc by the auditors as follows: ‘The first annual audited financial statements will be prepared for the period to 30 June 2013.’
This date of 30/06/2013 puzzles me because the 7 months’ consolidated accounts to 31 December 2012 means they must run from 31 May 2012. The Rangers AIM Prospectus which provides financial accounts based on the 3 months to 31 August 2012 means a start date of 31 May 2012.
So we apparently, according to my reading of things, have two different initial accounting reference dates advanced for RIFC Plc. We appear to have 30 June 2013 and also 16 May 2014. Obviously I wonder whether the earlier date is because accounts must be placed before the annual general meeting of RIFC Plc when that takes place.
It is worth also looking at TRFCL in terms of its accounting requirements – not being a public company there is no AIM requirements although its accounts have been consolidated into those of RIFC Plc.
The accounting reference date for TRFCL is 30 June and the first accounts are due on 28 February 2014. The incorporation date for TRFCL was 29 May 2012 but in September 2012 the accounting reference date was altered to 30 June 2012. However a private limited company such as TRFCL must submit its initial accounts to Companies House within 21 months of its Incorporation date which takes us to 28/02/2014.
So I apologise for the wooliness I have presented the above info which is an indication of my confusion. It may well be that I am not grasping a simple fact and if I am please be kind 😳
ecobhoy says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:55 pm
The accounts in the Rangers AIM Prospectus cover the period from the Incorporation of TRFCL on 29 May 2012 until 31 August 2012. So my understanding of AIM Rule 18 would be that interim accounts would require to be submitted wrt Rangers International Football Club Plc for the period 1 September 2012 to 28 February 2013 and every 6 months thereafter.
+++++++++++++++
That is correct. I have complained to AIM that rule 18 has clearly not been complied with by RIFC P:LC. They initially tried to fob me off with a load of nonsense. When I persisted, they told me that they took the matter seriously, but could tell me no more for reasons of confidentiality. I think I posted my emails and the replies on here a few weeks ago- early July?
As regards TRFC, as a separate private company, they must submit their own accounts to Companies House by the due date of 28/02/2014.
RIFC has until 31 December 2013 to submit its first accounts under AIM rules. The audited accounts for Companies House (and presumably AIM) will have to include both figures for RIFC as an entity, and consolidated accounts for the “group”. However it would be very surprising indeed if audited accounts were not produced in advance of the AGM in early October, since part of the normal business of an AGM is the presentation of the accounts. An AGM without audited accounts would be unthinkable.
neepheid says:
An AGM without audited accounts would be unthinkable.
____________________________________________________________
I’m willing to put on a Blackie or two that there will be no audited accounts at the Sevco AGM.
If I was a real gambling man I might even be tempted to bet against there even being an AGM at all!
A small thing I noticed in the CF link http://i.imgur.com/xyxwwLr.jpg last para which states as part of a Player’s contractual personal terms: ‘The club shall pay the Player a bonus in accordance with the schedule agreed with the Team captain at the start of each season and lodged with the SFA and SPL, as applicable to all players in the First Team Squad.’
I was reminded of the Rangers FTTT Decision http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6851/TC02372.pdf and page 18 para 75 onwards. This deals with payment of the team bonus coming from EBTs. The reason I mention this is the CF document clearly shows that team bonus payments/arrangements must be lodged with the SFA and SPL.
Obviously the SFA and SPL had access to the FTTT Decision so was the ‘bonus’ in question declared and if it wasn’t why was a breach of SFA and SPL Rules ignored and not included in the LNS Inquiry by the SPL? This breach would not have been excused by the ‘Bryson Sophistry’ as it had nothing to do with player registration but was just a simple breach of rules.
If it was declared was it stated that it came from an EBT? If this was the case then would not CO have been able to explain the significance to his Hampden colleagues? Or as it dragged in a UEFA Competition was this one filed under the appropriate carpet?
The FTTT Decision is encapsulated at: ‘ 75 . . . dealing with the controversy about bonus payments relating to the UEFA Champions League in the 2005/6 season. He confirmed that a bonus structure is negotiated annually between the Club and the team captain on behalf of the players. The captain that year had made very high demands and the negotiation had proved difficult. Ultimately and on the eve of a qualifying “tie” a bonus was agreed, but on condition that the negotiated figure would be paid into trust.
’78. Mr Scarlet recollected settling the bonus for the UEFA Champions League on the eve of a qualifying match at Famagusta. Mr Black had encouraged him to settle the matter. Mr Scarlet had gone to see the captain at the pitch and the matter was concluded for a payment of £25,000, provided that it was paid into trust.’
Lennon looks ok for a man that’s just come off a defibrillator.
FIFA says:
August 29, 2013 at 12:34 pm
“Apologies as this is probably common knowledge but can someone advise of where the Rangers cash funds are kept…”
—————————
I think a relationship with MetroBank exists.
Re: Rangers funds. Last I heard they were “resting” in the account of one Father Crilly from Craggy Island!
Maybe they have so little left, they can manage to fit it in a biscuit tin?
Paulmac2 says:
August 29, 2013 at 3:07 pm
blu says:
August 29, 2013 at 11:05 am
………………………………….
The only way I can see a competition becoming more competitive with a real possibility of another club winning the top division is to apply a handicap system..
==============================================
I alluded to this some time back. It’s my belief that the famed but undisclosed 5 way agreement contains a clause to the effect that McCoist must be retained by TRFC as manager at least until they reach the Premier League. Effectively TRFC accepted a handicapping system in lieu of losing previous titles or a set points deduction each season.
At the point TRFC ever reach the Premier League (for the first time) McCoist can then become a ‘floating handicap’ allocated by our Great Administrator to whichever other team appears to have an advantage over the rest. The existing manager would then TUPE across to TRFC. I suspect CO may select Celtic which should be interesting.
There are even export opportunities here as dominant teams like Barcelona can be shackled by the simple expedient of placing McCoist in charge. 🙂
Scottish football owes Celtic a big round of applause for last night’s victory.
TallBoy Poppy says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:21 pm
Dave King: R706 million or 24 months.
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Dave-King-must-pay-R706m-or-face-prison-20130829
========================================
Incredibly this man continues to be portrayed as a man of dignity and honour, suitable to lead the club from Ibrox to the very top of Scottish Football.
The following is a post by a Sevco fan on McMurdo’s blog can any of our esteemed financial people on this blog look at it and tell me is he right?
AUGUST 29, 2013 – 4:57 PM
name removed…….
First of all my fellow bears, let me apoligise, for this long winded post, but as we are aware, the devotees of peter lawell are indoctrinated and proof after proof is always required for this sort.
anyway, some claim that celtic’s net liabilities are tax realted, mention of corporation tax!! oh dear. so lets quote from the june statement and page 10 is were this quote from mr eric riley, let us hear his own words.
No provision for corporation tax is required in respect
of the year ended 30 June 2012. The provisional tax
computation for accounts purposes provides tax losses
carried forward of approximately £33m (2011: £27m)
now some will note the losses mr riley claims they are carrying forward, but it looks like 33 million to me. now i will hear some shout, seany in particular that was last year, so just to prove to him, let us quote the accounts celtic brought out after c/l participation and a whopping 14.94 million operating profit. so as we are not unsure were i am quoting from it is under taxation march 2013 accounts.
TAXATION After taking account of unutilised tax losses brought forward, together with the projected performance for the next six months, no provision for taxation is required.
so bears take note of the statement the projected performance of the next six months from dec 2012 to june 2013. celtic expected to make losses, even after a c/l campaign. and i will explain that later.but note seany, no provision for tax is required even after a 14.94 million operating profit.
so how much are celtic in debt? well lets go to their accounts again shall we. The working capital of the Group and Company is funded largely by bank borrowings. The Group and Company has a £33.49m facility with
the Co-operative Bank of which £12m is in the form of overdraft and £21.94m in long-term loans. While the nature of the overdraft results
in the application of a floating rate, the loans offer the possibility to lock into a longer-term interest rate. £10.97m (2011: £11.34m) of the
loan facility is required to be drawn down for the term of the facility agreement.
now in there you will see the statement the company and little loss making group is largely FUNDED BY BANK BORROWINGS, note seany and all likeminded, BANK BORROWINGS. these are not my words but your own club’s words.now there seems to be some confusion of just how much this little club owe of the 21.94 million. let me clarify. 10.97 million (half exactly of the 21.94 million) is required to be drawn down in the above statement’s own words for the term of the loan facility, that my fellow bears is the loan which celtic take out for the duration of the facility, which in effect funds their working capital every season. now the other half of the 10.97 million is the, and forms part of the 21.94 million facility which they pay back a small amount over the 10 year mortgage loan period. proof yopu ask? on page 57 of their statement, there is an interest amount of 191,000 payable per year. that is the amount they pay for 10.97 million loan used for the working capital to get them through the season, which without they wouldnt make, and as you see bears not one single penny of this reduces each year, because it is needed each year. now on page 60, another 10.97 appears, which are described as loans which need to be reapid within one year, between 2 and 5 years and after 5 years, and if you add the amounts up, which are as follows, 375,000, one and a half million and 9,094 million and you get the half again of the 21.94 million or in reality the other half of the 10.97 million which make up the whole of the 21.94 million long term loans.now note what page 60 tell’s us, the little company and group is funded largely by BANK BORROWINGS, not REVENUE. now to settle it once and for all.
page 60 tells you the loans which need to be repaid in the next 1, 2-5 and after 5 years. now celtic have 4 mortgages with the co operative, for proof see here. http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/celtic and with the second loan not used for working capital they pay 375,000 p.a. for this previous drawn down loan. do you see the different amounts? one is 191,000 for the one used for the loan to fund the working capital, which is only interest and the second on page 60 is 375,000. now we know these loans are over a 10 year period, so multiply 375 by 10 and add the 1.5 million loan which needs to be repaid between 2-5 years, and you have this figure of 5.25 million. subtract that from 21.94 million and you get 16.69 million.
now have we come across that figure before? oh yes. go to page 57 of their said statement and you get these words.
These loans form part of a £21.94m
loan facility which is repayable in equal quarterly instalments from October 2009 until April 2019 and £16.69m is repayable in July 2019.
now bears i have bored you enough thus far, but be assured that the 21.94 million is drawn down, and the reason that it does not show that it is as yet drawn down on the balance sheet on page 60, is simply because their st money is in, and that means the loan is cleared for about 2 months from june till august, and then redrawn down to be used as THE FUNDING FOR WORKING CAPITAL. crafty or what bears? this second loan required to be drawn down for the duration of the facility is what keeps them going pre Christmas, and the overdraft finishes it of after Christmas.
if any celtic minded want me to prove to them even with all their billions they got for their players they are still skint i will have no problems discussing
neepheid says:
August 29, 2013 at 5:45 pm
================================================================
I think you have helped concentrate my thoughts if not my mind 😆
Interim Results for RIFC Plc (“Rangers” or the “Company”)
“Rangers International Football Club plc (AIM:RFC), the holding company for the Scottish football club ‘Rangers’, is pleased to announce interim results for the seven-month period from incorporation to 31 December 2012.”
The layers of deception seem to be the enemy of transparency at every level of the Ibrox operation. An ordinary reading of the above paragraph would lead any normal person to understand that RIFC Plc was incorporated at the end of May 2012. But it wasn’t incorporated until 16 November 2012 a mere 6 weeks before the end of the 7 month interim accounts.
Some might even think it means that Rangers is ‘incorporated’ well they are wrong because it can’t be as it doesn’t have a legal persona. What was incorporated was The Rangers Football Club Ltd and essentially it was the accounts of this private limited company, incorporated in May 2012, which was ‘consolidated’ into the interim accounts of RIFC Plc covering May to December 2012 even though RIFC Plc only legally existed for 6 weeks of that period.
So we have Rangers – the football club – now completely and seamlessly shared between TRFCL and RIFC Plc and a total blurring of accounting lines between these two companies.
Deloittes, who audited the 7 month results, stated in March this year: ‘The first annual audited financial statements for RIFC Plc will be prepared for the period to 30 June 2013.’
Under AIM Rule 19: ‘An AIM company must publish annual audited accounts which must be sent to its
shareholders without delay and in any event not later than six months after the end of the financial year to which they relate.’
This means that annual audited accounts would need to be distributed by 30 December 2013 at the latest but I think if they weren’t available for Bears by the up-coming General Meeting then there truly would be trouble at mill 🙄
The Thumbsdowners are out early tonight.
chancer67 says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:17 pm
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The following is a post by a Sevco fan on McMurdo’s blog can any of our esteemed financial people on this blog look at it and tell me is he right?
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I’ll just comment on the Corporation Tax point.
Firstly, it is very difficult to compare taxable profits or losses with the profit or loss shown in the accounts. A lot of that is because of tax allowances which companies can claim in respect of expenditure on the ground, and differences between the way transfer dealings are dealt with for tax and accountancy purposes, for example. It is quite possible for a company to make a commercial profit of £15m and yet have a tax loss of £6m.
Secondly, if there is a single football club currently paying Corporation Tax in the UK, I’ll be very surprised. If either Celtic or old Rangers have paid any Corporation Tax in the last 20 years, I’d be even more surprised.
However I’m not really sure what point on taxation this poster is trying to make. He just seems to be a bit over-excited about something or other. Perhaps he’ll get even more excited when RIFC publish audited accounts- if such a thing ever happens.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
August 29, 2013 at 1:12 pm
In the interests of fairness, clarity and getting to the route of it….
can anyone clarify exactly what the claim is about Celtic having £34M of debt to the CO-OP
and can they then clarify the situation regards that debt.
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The question, surely, is not whether Celtic have debt, or how much the debt is, rather than is the club solvent or not.
Rangers were liquidated not because they had debt, but because they were insolvent, and my suspicion is that questioning Celtic’s debt, if any, is just another attempt at deflection.
Carntyne says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:43 pm
It’s even sillier than that, and more obvious. It’s softening people up for the Rangers’ results to come out.
It’s whataboutery.
It’s the latest ridiculous comparison, not as bad as likening Charles Green to Fergus McCann but getting there.
ecobhoy says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:21 pm
Deloittes, who audited the 7 month results, stated in March this year: ‘The first annual audited financial statements for RIFC Plc will be prepared for the period to 30 June 2013.’
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Just a minor point- the 7 month results were prepared by Deloittes, but were not audited. From the interim results here- http://www.investegate.co.uk/rangers-int-f.c.-plc/rns/interim-results/201303040700100856Z/
“Scope of review
We conducted our review in accordance with International Standard on Review Engagements (UK and Ireland) 2410 “Review of Interim Financial Information Performed by the Independent Auditor of the Entity” issued by the Auditing Practices Board for use in the United Kingdom. A review of interim financial information consists of making inquiries, primarily of persons responsible for financial and accounting matters, and applying analytical and other review procedures. A review is substantially less in scope than an audit conducted in accordance with International Standards on Auditing (UK and Ireland) and consequently does not enable us to obtain assurance that we would become aware of all significant matters that might be identified in an audit. Accordingly, we do not express an audit opinion.”
Dearie dearie me, if only i had known that if I hadn’t paid the bills on my home and had lost my home due to it, I should have cracked up with the neighbour and demanded he show me his mortgage statement to make sure he was paying it !! I mean it should have been the first thing on my mind, making sure everyone else gets tarnished with the debt brush, never mind I can’t run my ain hoose. “I’M THE MAN, it should be youz that are gettin it, no me. It’s no ma fault, IT’S YOURSSSSSSSSSSSSS…….” Sorry need to go, that’s Habitat at the door lookin for there furniture back, cheerio !!!!
neepheid says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:56 pm
ecobhoy says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:21 pm
Deloittes, who audited the 7 month results, stated in March this year: ‘The first annual audited financial statements for RIFC Plc will be prepared for the period to 30 June 2013.’
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Just a minor point- the 7 month results were prepared by Deloittes, but were not audited. From the interim results here- http://www.investegate.co.uk/rangers-int-f.c.-plc/rns/interim-results/201303040700100856Z/
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Totally correct neepheid – somewhere in my brain I knew that but had obviously forgotten it 😳
Bangordub says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:43 pm
An interesting, if somewhat skewed, view by a TRFC supporter. I don’t doubt his/ her sincerity but the sense of victimhood is clear:
http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/HenrikVegetable/media/youmadhunbro_zps4bfb5cee.png.html
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Alice-in-Wonderland makes more sense…