Naming the Rose

ByTrisidium

Naming the Rose

We spend an inordinate amount of time on this blog arguing about what the re-emergent Rangers should be called. It is a rather circular debate with no way of finding any consensus. The dispute between Rangers (“The Rangerists”) or The Rangers or Sevco (“The Sevconians”) and its claim to be the club that was formed in the 19th century is spurious. Whichever way you look at it, the continuity of the “brand” is undeniable and as long those who wish to keep buying that package are satisfied that the wrapping is authentic – where’s the harm?

The red herring in the argument is that “history” is important. To the average football fan, it is nothing of the kind. As a Celtic fan myself, and a bit of a student of the history of the club, I am constantly dismayed by the Thousand Yard Stare I get from your average Celtic fan who is confronted with the names of people who contributed significantly to the club’s identity. Key figures like Sandy McMahon, Jimmy Delaney, Jimmy McGrory and (God help us) John Thomson rarely elicit recognition.

Modern football fans who live in the instant gratification society of the the WWW and mobile communications may pay lip service to their clubs’ history, but that’s not what gives the modern football fan wears as his badge of honour. That is a commodity often erroneously confused with history – the bragging rights associated with the trophy haul.

The ability to claim that “we have more titles than you” is far more valuable to a supporter than which 19th century attacking centre-back won the Scottish Cup with a last minute header; and the value of said cup wins is heavily weighted in favour of the most recent (save for the honourable exception of the European successes).

The maintenance of that illusion of superiority is crucial if Rangers fans are to believe that their club is still Rangers. Perhaps in time they may even come to fully believe it themselves, but the cataract of column inches devoted to propagating that myth, both from the MSM and from information outlets controlled by Charles Green’s organisation, betrays a lack of total belief by the chief Bear-existentialists. Protesting too much may not be subtle, but that never put off your average fitba’ man either.

The upshot though is this. There is a belief – or at least a hope – amongst Rangerists that the continuity argument holds. They will call the new club Rangers. Fans of other clubs who make up the vast majority of the Sevconian tendency, believe nothing of the kind. They will call it something else.

Many will remind Rangerists that the old club died, and this is factually correct (or at least will be very soon). Rangerists will counter that the Rangers ethos lives on at Ibrox, and despite the worrying overtones (for some) contained in that statement, that is also factually correct.

Rangerists will also point out, as Rangers fans on this blog already have, that the SPL bent over backwards to assist the continuity of the club in order to minimise the financial consequences for Scottish football, and that the SFL too, have agreed that they are the same club.

Why? Simply because Scottish Football thinks it needs to help perpetrate they illusion of continuity to avoid the loss of thousands of paying customers to the game altogether.

So round one has gone to the Rangerists, with the Sevconians pretty much taking an eight-count.

So is the name thing important? I don’t think it is of critical importance. The name in itself doesn’t matter, but to merely agree that everything is as before is to join forces with the MSM, SFA & SPL who have sought to give RFC and their tax theft a pass.

Whatever happens in the future though, the illusion hasn’t worked completely. The Sevconians’ wish to call the new club by a different name was for the purpose of making it synonymous with tax evasion, however the name Rangers now evokes exactly that response. There is now a discernible pause when people mention Rangers. A pause that reflects on the dis-service they did to the country, and to the game of football in Scotland.

Which brings us to the really important point. Throughout this saga rules have been bent. Conflicted individuals, alleged to have been involved in the tax and registration scam and its subsequent cover-up, have remained in positions of authority and power, despite being under a cloud throughout. The media have been complicit, except in rare cases, in allowing the wrong-doing to go unquestioned, actively campaigning for rules not to be applied.

What we have been saying all along is this. Please play the game by the rules, and do not manufacture special cases for the financially powerful.

Call Rangers whatever you wish, but deal with their transgressions appropriately in the spirit of sporting fairness, and within the framework of the existing rules. That is the least – and most – we expect. We don’t ask for much. Just give us back some pride in our sport .

About the author

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

2,065 Comments so far

ObserverPosted on11:57 pm - Oct 13, 2012


bogsdollox says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 22:57

Not really. This is the problem with clever people in this country they always try to be clever by demonstrating their knowledge of Greek/Roman mythology

—————-
You are right. These “intellectuals” are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Slightly OT, but did you know that the expression ‘Cloud Cuckoo Land’ was invented by the Athenian dramatist Aristophanes in 414 bc to ridicule the philosopher Socrates?

It is in his play “Birds” which failed to win the prize for comedy in that years’ Athenian drama competition.

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TSFMPosted on12:07 am - Oct 14, 2012


john clarke

We can but hope that perhaps ND’s latest comments are the first glimpses of dawn in this regard. The thought of Armageddon never crossed the minds of anyone willing to do the sums. It was the province of those whose thoughts were forever to remain inside a very confined box.

Scottish football fans appear to have voted with their feet and hopefully lifted the lid on that box to allow a bit of light in. In the process it appears they have laughed in the face of Traynor and his ilk, who at the beginning of the season assured us that the “loud-mouth bloggers” would not put their money where their mouths are by supporting their clubs at the turnstiles.

Sporting integrity AND a bigger haul at the gate? Surely not Jim.

I do have one last prediction. Cue JT’s leader in the DR on Monday assuring us that he always said attendances would rise.

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ObserverPosted on12:12 am - Oct 14, 2012


angus1983 says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 23:29

Pegasus, meanwhile, ended up working for Zeus carting thunderbolts around and stuff. When his time was up, Zeus turned him into a star constellation. So that was nice.

——————————–

These are coded references indicating the people who are really behind Charles Green’s consortium?

Right??

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john clarkePosted on12:13 am - Oct 14, 2012


TSFM says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 00:07

‘Sporting integrity AND a bigger haul at the gate? Surely not Jim
—–
Let’s hope there will be plenty more evidence that the two concepts are indeed not mutually exclusive!

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Lamp Post SanniesPosted on12:17 am - Oct 14, 2012


Observer says:

Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 23:57

Not only that but 1 hr and 6 mins in Pisthetaerus can clearly be heard saying “I hope”
(Sorry, couldn’t resist that)

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john clarkePosted on12:17 am - Oct 14, 2012


angus1983 says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 23:29
‘Zeus turned him into a star constellation.’

5 star?

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john clarkePosted on12:20 am - Oct 14, 2012


gie’s a gonk says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 00:17
‘Not only that but 1 hr and 6 mins in Pisthetaerus can clearly be heard saying “I hope”’

Now you’re taking the piss, Thetaerus!

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ObserverPosted on12:27 am - Oct 14, 2012


Can anyone with a classical education remember how near the sun Greek hero Ticketus got before his wax wings melted?

(I believe Greek legend recounts that he tried it twice…)

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willmacufreePosted on12:30 am - Oct 14, 2012


Humble Pie says: Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 18:55
willmacufree says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 18:15
Fair point will, however the affiliations of the editor are irrelevant. Media and marketing are all about ‘perception’. Both sets of the old ‘Old Firm’ supporters perceive the tabloids as being biased against them ….and they are both right.
———————
Agreed. I was trying to highlight that the tabloid editor whose name I unfortunately can’t remember, was acting from the best of motives, which none of this current crew seem able even to understand, never mind act from.

I also thought it was interesting that within the week after telling Murray where to go, he was clearing his desk. (Phil MacGiollaBhain, “Downfall…..”)

You’re right that both sets of exOld Firm supporters see the tabloids as being against them, but for diametrically opposite reasons.

Sorry to take so long to respond. I’m an infrequent poster, lurker more like.

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bogsdolloxPosted on12:44 am - Oct 14, 2012


Observer says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 23:57

bogsdollox says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 22:57

Not really. This is the problem with clever people in this country they always try to be clever by demonstrating their knowledge of Greek/Roman mythology

—————-
You are right. These “intellectuals” are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Slightly OT, but did you know that the expression ‘Cloud Cuckoo Land’ was invented by the Athenian dramatist Aristophanes in 414 bc to ridicule the philosopher Socrates?

It is in his play “Birds” which failed to win the prize for comedy in that years’ Athenian drama competition.
__________________________________________________________________________

My only point was that if you are going to write about football why dress it up as prose derived from some ancient mythology. Let’s deal in facts and language we all understand. There is a place for the classics – in my opinion this isn’t it. People who write in that style are actually failed intellectuals because the only ever communicate with the “elite”.

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Lamp Post SanniesPosted on12:48 am - Oct 14, 2012


The reported average gates so far for SPL clubs are obviously reassuring that the oft-forecast armageddon seems to be the myth we mostly suspected it was, at least for the SPL.

I’ve contacted both the SFA and SFL for confirmation that the business plan Rangers presented to them before being granted membership did not include a mid-season working capital injection via a public share issue, or, if it did, why were Rangers not asked to post a Livingston style bond just in case this share issue was not a success. I’ve also asked them what their plan is now if indeed they were presented with a plan that omitted a share issue for raising working capital, what recourse do they have if it turns out the plan they were given wasn’t accurate.

No-one on here will be shocked to hear I have had no response from either body, not even to say this information is confidential and we can’t discuss it with you. Their scant disregard for the genuine concerns of the fans never ceases to surprise/dismay me. I wouldn’t be as worried if I was an isolated nutter but my concerns are also shared by the SFL clubs. I have it on good authority that they have, as yet, received no information from either body and are just as much in the dark as the fans are. “Worrying” is the term I was quoted.

There is something far wrong in our current set-up when even the member clubs are kept un-informed about the arrangements made with one of their counterparts. Even after all that has happened, why are Rangers still being treated as a special case?

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goosyPosted on12:57 am - Oct 14, 2012


Once upon a time there were 3 Bears
MurrayBear
Craigie Bear
and
Charlie Bear

Along came the Strathclyde Polis Bear with a big bag of porridge

He looked at Craigie Bear and said

“You can have the wee bowl because you stole £14m ”

The he looked at Murray Bear and said

“You can have the middle bowl because you stole £94m ”

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Then he looked at Charlie Bear and said

“If any of my traffic cops buy shares in Sevco you`re getting that much porridge your weans will have to move tae Riddrie”

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Humble PiePosted on1:09 am - Oct 14, 2012


willmacufree says:

Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 00:30

No worries mate,

In an earlier post, I alluded to the importance of demographics to the tabloid industry. This story, however, serves as a great example of the law of unintended consequences. Regardless of their motivation, the Scottish football media, by appearing to revel in the potential demise of Celtic and repeatedly highlighting the specific weaknesses of the Kelly dynasty during the mid-nineties, actually acted as a catalyst and succeeded in uniting the Celtic support against the poor management of their club. Conversely, whilst appearing to be ‘sooking up’ to the larger demographic of the Rangers and ignoring the obvious failings of their management, the MSM have actually done the Rangers supporters a major disservice, by not settings alarms ringing at an earlier stage in their downfall, thus giving their fans a chance of doing something to save their club……..and so it continues.

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ObserverPosted on1:16 am - Oct 14, 2012


Ave, Domine bogsdolloxus!

Ego te multum respecto, sed tu es uno minimo pedanticus!

Ergo, uppo teum arsum shovite.

Offensus non granta (Intentionabile)

””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””’

Augustus per imperator!

Roma per aeterna!

Cluba Celta per trebla Scotlica et Europa Cuppa (runna respectabile perhapsita…)

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Humble PiePosted on1:21 am - Oct 14, 2012


Observer says:

Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 01:16

Language Timothy ! (with apologies to Ronnie Corbett)

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john clarkePosted on1:22 am - Oct 14, 2012


gie’s a gonk says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 00:48
‘….There is something far wrong in our current set-up when even the member clubs are kept un-informed..’
—–
It must be a case of ‘who’ll bell the cat?’

No club seems to want to be the one who tries to force the issue of asserting the rights of each and every member of the SFA to be kept up-to-speed with what their elected/appointed officers are doing at any given time.

I can’t think of a parallel in any other ‘trade’ organisation, where the constituent members are happy to let their executive adopt ‘favouritism’ of one illegitimate member.at the potential risk of damage to other members.

Quite extraordinary.

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ObserverPosted on1:54 am - Oct 14, 2012


Just a contribution….

TSFM is always alert to ways to make this blog more important. So, in light of recent discussions, what about this?

All discussions on the blog have to be conducted in either Greek or Latin!

Yes: initially usership will drop off, but eventually – as the profs from Harvard,The Sorbonne & Heidlberg move in – this will become the most popular Scottish football/Greek & Latin philosophy Forum on the Web.

The Neds from Dennistoun wull probably slope off, which is to be regretted. But sadly they do not pack the internet dollar that Greek/Latin speakers at All Souls College do & our watchword is “TSFM must stay solvent”.

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Humble PiePosted on2:13 am - Oct 14, 2012


Observer says:

Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 01:54

In the interest of inclusivity, could we also include the branch of Swahili spoken in darkest Drumchapel, or, as we call it, the Glesga Bantu.

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RayCharlezPosted on2:17 am - Oct 14, 2012


I think it is possible to tie the Classics and Chick Murray neatly together.

As Chick once said when using the old Scots vernacular:

A sleekit brig the braw frae fielte, licht nicht nae noo not bright tae kielty.

I think Chick’s wise words can yield lessons.

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Parson St. BhoyPosted on2:36 am - Oct 14, 2012


http://soundcloud.com/dingwall-exposed/ding-dong-the-dingwalls-dead

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redlichtiePosted on2:42 am - Oct 14, 2012


bogsdollox says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 22:57

Not really. This is the problem with clever people in this country they always try to be clever by demonstrating their knowledge of Greek/Roman mythology

angus1983 says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 23:29

Yes – according to Iron Maiden, from whom I learned my ancient history and mythology almost exclusively..

————————————————————————————————————————-

The Ironing Maiden is a laundry service in Arbroath! 😉

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Parson St. BhoyPosted on2:58 am - Oct 14, 2012


doontheslope says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 22:24
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Kofia. (Chapeau)

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Lord WobblyPosted on4:50 am - Oct 14, 2012


“A few words on Rangers, perhaps? Souness appears to shudder as the probability of another awkward conversation presents itself. It’s best we don’t go there.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/graeme-souness-interview-disarmed-combatant.19121290

“It’s best we don’t go there”?

JESUS WEPT!

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Lord WobblyPosted on5:04 am - Oct 14, 2012


Tom English remembers how to be a journalist

http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-east-stirlingshire-online-is-the-future-says-green-let-s-see-if-the-500-million-buy-into-it-1-2575529

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Long Time LurkerPosted on7:00 am - Oct 14, 2012


TSFM says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 23:20

Yes, Charles does bring much comedy to the radio of an afternoon and on occasion during the evening. I remember fondly his description of a game of football between a team of journalists and MSPs, when one MSP put in a particularly heavy tackle.

From the Daily Record:

“”Ten minutes before half-time, Chick was clattered by John Park. He was writhing in agony and got carried off.

“The ref sent John off, although he let us bring on a sub as it was a friendly. But three or four sports guys took exception and there was a bit of handbags at 20 paces.

“John went to apologise after the match but Chick told him to f***off.”

Chick said: “John Park did me. I’ve got six stud marks down my leg. I’m still limping.”

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/exclusive-msps-friendly-football-match-995569

Returning to the importance of having a Rangers in the SPL to some in the MSM. The seeds of a (new?) strategy were being mooted by Messers Young, Traynor, Forsyth and English – the TV money won’t be the same, without Rangers there will be less money on the table.

It may be interesting to revisit the analysis that was posted on RTC noting that Scottish football was paid comparatively less than other domestic leagues, indicating that the SPL had not secured the best possible deal. I would argue that as the entertainment value of the SPL is improving – we are getting a more competitive league, that in itself presents a case for the SPL when negotiating and securing a new TV deal.

The suggestion on Radio Scotland yesterday was that the Clubs to date have not received all of the TV monies due to them from the SPL, as the SPL are short of cash at the moment. Perhaps this needs more attention from the MSM and internet bampots.

If the SPL are short of cash I offer this simple solution for consideration. As TRFC are cash rich, debt free and about to secure £20M from a share issue (to rebuild the club etc.) If Rangers are found to have deliberately put in place dual contracts with out passing all of the necessary details to the SFA and players are found to have been illegally registered, given the recent statements from Mr Green, it is clear that his Club would be in a position to pay a monetary penalty in line with the serious and disruptive nature of the offence? The fine could be the punishment – where the loss of titles would be the consequence of the action.

Should be an interesting month – 4 weeks to the dual contracts investigation formally sits to consider that matter. Hopefully a FTTT decision on MIH v HMRC. Should be plenty of material for Mr Young – hopefully we will hear more of his comic genius in the weeks to come 🙂

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creepylurkerPosted on8:13 am - Oct 14, 2012


A bit ot here, but does anyone here know when the next meeting of the spl clubs is due? I’d like to know when they are going to change the voting structure to a 75% majority making the league a fairer place for all. Untill this happens it doesn’t matter what kind of league restructuring takes place, the spl setup will still be flawed.

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doontheslopePosted on8:27 am - Oct 14, 2012


500 million world wide fan base?

Revenue streams of between £100 and £200 mllion?

I remember talking to a group of infants at school. When I asked them what age they thought I was, one hand shot up immediately and the child said confidently, “14.”

I was so thrilled. It did my ego the world of good. I obviously look much younger than my actual age, I thought.

I was a wee bit deflated later when a teacher pointed out that 14 was actually the highest number the child knew.

In defense of the child, she was only five.

The truth is, I’m 50. Charles, on the other hand is nearly 60.

Maybe we all need to grow up and start acting our age.

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scottyjimboPosted on9:40 am - Oct 14, 2012


Lord Wobbly says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 05:04

Tom English remembers how to be a journalist

http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-east-stirlingshire-online-is-the-future-says-green-let-s-see-if-the-500-million-buy-into-it-1-2575529

Maybe some editors/journalists don’t like Charlie’s suggestion that the succulent lamb might be going off the menu in the future. That’s unless, of course, your willing to phone Ally at £2/min to get the latest hot news, that “There’s light at the end of the tunnel”. The latest hardening of attitude from the media might be a wee reminder to Charlie that they’re still sitting at the table and expect to be fed. Can Charlie shut the kitchen door at this delicate juncture in his share issue? We shall see.

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arabest1Posted on9:42 am - Oct 14, 2012


TSFM, I have made several infrequent attempts to register and contribute over the last few weeks and never get past a ‘test’ in moderation. Am I being kept out or is it my technological inadequacies catching up on me.

[Nope: You are in! Welcome :mrgreen: ]

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wottpiPosted on10:18 am - Oct 14, 2012


Just a week bag of the fag packet calculation.

Looking at the 2009 and 2010 accounts it appears that excluding income from Europe (£16m in 2010) Rangers turnover was around £40m for both years.

Operating expenditure was in the region of £44m. (£48m in 2009)

Now we are told the wage bill has been cut from £30m to £6m therefore a saving of £24m on the operating expenditure.

44-24 = £20m.

We are told that the £6m salary bill represents 30% of turnover, so turnover must be around £20m.

So the club must be looking to break even?

If they have made cuts elsewhere and brought in extra revenue, then being debt free, they must be looking to be in profit?

They can’t sign anyone for a while yet so why the rush to get the share issue sorted before Christmas?

Where is this additional £20m going to go?

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jonnyodPosted on10:29 am - Oct 14, 2012


wottpi says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 10:18
====================================================================
Looking at your figures everything would seem to be Ticketusboo with their books this term ,so I don’t know where the 20m will be going .
Sorry for the typo should have been ticketyboo ,
IMO though I would guess they will be looking at an 8m loss this term ,just a hunch

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neepheidPosted on10:29 am - Oct 14, 2012


wottpi says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 10:18

They can’t sign anyone for a while yet so why the rush to get the share issue sorted before Christmas?

Where is this additional £20m going to go?
===================
Why the rush? Green’s version- war looming in the middle east. My version- Green & Co want out fast.

Where will the £20m go? Green’s version- investment in the future of the club. My version- Repay investors plus Green’s pension fund and ticket to Monte Carlo.

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Danish PastryPosted on10:40 am - Oct 14, 2012


jmaclure says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 09:19
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

I,m all for that, TSFM.

Does that include the stereotyping of Rangers Supporters, because, to be brutally honest, it is rife on here?
—————————–

It is rife among certain posters, but that said, it’s not altogether unjustified. I get the feeling that issues mentioned in AT’s latest blog http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/ could, in part, be a reason for some of the stereotyping.

I thought this post by HP was a good read otherwise

Humble Pie says:
Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 17:46

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AgrajagPosted on10:42 am - Oct 14, 2012


wottpi says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 10:18

Do you believe that the salary bill is £6m and that represents 30% of turnover.

Bearing in mind that anyone, player management and staff, who moved over under the TUPE regulations was entitled to the same terms and conditions as they had in the old business / club.

And also, assuming 36,000 season tickets at £300 (remember there are concessions in the total figure) that comes to £10.8m, but that includes VAT, so the club gets £9m.

Assume another 5,000 at all home games, 18 I think, at £20 that’s £1.8m, take away the VAT and that gives you £1.5m

That’s the “guaranteed” income from league football, something like £10.5m.

The other £9.5m has to come from cups, merchandising, sponsorship, catering etc. I just don’t see it. I do not see Rangers, in the 4th division, with the number of staff and the expenses on property etc as being a break even operation.

If they were why would there be this rush to sell the business on the stock exchange, they cannot spend the money on players anyway. I believe they need the money for day to day operations, and that they have been spending season ticket money in order to keep the business running.

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SouthernExilePosted on10:47 am - Oct 14, 2012


Charles’ behaviour reminds me of an old joke about Gordon Brown.

In a situation requiring fiscal rectitude, all we got was rectal fistitude…..

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jonnyodPosted on11:00 am - Oct 14, 2012


IMO there are two reasons why CG is launching his donation issue now
1. They need the money
2. He needs the sevco fans to buy and the best way of ensuring they do without asking any serious questions is to tell them everyone is out to destroy them .

No.2 takes me back to when CG said live on TV that the SPL have an agenda against them and have already agreed to strip Ragers of titles,this is of course utter nonsense and he most likely knows that stripped titles would be the least Ragers could expect for 10 yrs of systematic cheating.
He said they are desperate to strip us of titles and we will see if I am proved right .IMO this was to set his assault on the sevco fans savings books .Ragers will be found guilty of dual contracts
and the SPL will be obliged to award any opponents a 0-3 win in all games any of the ineligible players played ,meaning they could not retain the titles .CG will whip up a firestorm about the verdict ,reminding the Sevco fans of what he said months earlier as proof of the SPLs agenda .
He will declare he will not except the verdict and will fight tooth and nail on the Sevco fans behalf and ask for their backing (shares bought ),no questions asked .

I have always maintained that the Ragers fans would be the ones that would finance any new club ,as lets face it there are no sugar daddies going to come into Scottish football .What I would say to them is ,CG stated that any shares not bought by the fans he will buy ,well why don’t you take him at his word .Start saving your money and invest in the club when CG and his unknown consortium has sold up and moved on ,just my opinion but I think the next buyers will have the club at heart and will no doubt need your money more than whoever is behind CG .

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angus1983Posted on11:10 am - Oct 14, 2012


Observer says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 00:27

Can anyone with a classical education remember how near the sun Greek hero Ticketus got before his wax wings melted?
——

With all due respect to yourself, and apologies to bogsdollox, you appear to be a little confused here. Ticketus is certainly not a Greek name.

Ticketus was a Roman historian, known in part for making one of the few Bible-external references to Jesus’ crucifiction, and possibly for offering a free bag of otters’ noses with the price of admission to same.

bogsdollox: gie’s a break. It takes all sorts. Scotland is well known for the average man in the street being able to expound at length on all manner of subjects.

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auchinstarryPosted on11:23 am - Oct 14, 2012


TSFM, dunnman.

Unreserved Apologies.

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timabhouyPosted on11:24 am - Oct 14, 2012


Ahem !!!!! well writen and remeber icarus flew to close to the sun
And if you look into medusas eyes it will turn you all into sarcastic smart asses

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TSFMPosted on11:31 am - Oct 14, 2012


wottpi says:

Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 10:18(Edit)

Just a week bag of the fag packet calculation.

Looking at the 2009 and 2010 accounts it appears that excluding income from Europe (£16m in 2010) Rangers turnover was around £40m for both years.

Operating expenditure was in the region of £44m. (£48m in 2009)

Now we are told the wage bill has been cut from £30m to £6m therefore a saving of £24m on the operating expenditure.

44-24 = £20m.

We are told that the £6m salary bill represents 30% of turnover, so turnover must be around £20m.

So the club must be looking to break even?
__________________________________________________________________________

Those historic overheads would have included some debt repayment and interest. Given that the club is “debt-free”, and extending your rationale to include that, I would have thought another £1m-2m would be shaved off the top line of operating costs.

That would suggest the club is in profit already. Therefore, why the rush to floatation, and specifically to find some extra working capital? If working capital is needed, what is Green not telling the fans?

One promising sign for Rangers fans is that there is no universal acclaim for Green’s plan amongst the RFC support. There are some fans asking these questions right now, and I wonder what the attitude to the RST will be now that they appear to have been pushed aside?

I think Green is in big trouble here if he expects to make a killing out of this, and even bigger trouble if the end game has been as many suspected, to rescue Ticketus’s position.

Green has bitten off more than he can comfortably suck on (now that the SPL is closed to him and reconstruction is a very hard sell), but he has no option now other than to stay the course. I don’t see how Rangers, in whatever guise, can hope to get to where they want to be until Charlie has gone and some football minded people are put in place.

In the condition that club finds itself in, there may be an even greater danger that when Charlie goes, another opportunist may arrive to pick on the bones.

Sending Green packing now may be the quickest and most effective way of putting the Rangers on track to the top, but he won’t go quietly.

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Billy BoycePosted on11:38 am - Oct 14, 2012


Lord Wobbly says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 05:04
Tom English remembers how to be a journalist
—————————————————————

English: “There are many, many questions to ask of Green and the people behind him…”

Agreed, but Tom doesn’t tell us who should ask them. It’s all very well saying ‘we demand answers’ but, after all, he is the MSM and that’s his job. If English doesn’t do so then who will – Traynor, Jackson, Young?

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twopandaPosted on11:46 am - Oct 14, 2012


This from 11 Oct – update for interest

http://www.thelawyer.com/ffw-and-travers-smith-score-roles-on-rangers-20m-ipo/1014851.article

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campsiejoePosted on12:02 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Tommy @ 11:38

None of them will ask Charlie any of the questions that need to be asked, for two reasons

1 They don’t want to
2 Charlie waxes lyrical on generalities, and keeps very quiet on specifics

As long as Charlie stays away from the specifics, then the MSM don’t need to get involved in real journalism, and can happily reprint all of his statements, without giving them another thought

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AgrajagPosted on12:03 pm - Oct 14, 2012


TSFM says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 11:31

I still haven’t seen anything to suggest that Charles Green is doing anything to benefit Ticketus.

Why would he, his business does not owe them any money. They are an unsecured creditor in the Rangers administration, soon to be liquidation.

As to the new business being “debt free”, I very much doubt it but we should see as and when the prospectus comes out.

Rangers were “debt free” when Craig Whyte took over apparently.

View Comment

paulmac2Posted on12:04 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Quick question…was Charles green’s son not involved with Cenkos? if so…would that draw questions as to their choice of FFW?

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AgrajagPosted on12:05 pm - Oct 14, 2012


campsiejoe says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 12:02

==========================

Don’t you think he is currently trying to antagonise them as well just now. With the talk of no-one speaking to anyone, and everything going through Rangers Media.

Ramp up the “everyone is against us” campaign, and get those shares sold.

View Comment

campsiejoePosted on12:19 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Agrajag @ 12:05

There is no doubt that he is looking to go to war with everyone at this time, as the siege mentality is one of his best marketing tools
Up until now though he has not declared war on the MSM, but I am sure that won’t last for too much longer
Until he actually turns on the MSM, and starts to criticise them openly, they will continue to tread the path with which we are all familiar

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AgrajagPosted on12:24 pm - Oct 14, 2012


campsiejoe says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 12:19

==============================

What he has rather cleverly done is created a mentality where any attack on him is an attack on the club, anyone questioning him or his motives is attacking the club. Where loyalty to the club is demonstrated by loyalty to him, where support of the club is shown by giving him money.

Not bad for someone who was viewed with massive scepticism not log ago. It is unfortunate how he acted to get the turnaround under way.

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campsiejoePosted on12:36 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Agrajag @ 12:24

It’s an age old ploy though, which will always be a short term fix, as you can only play the persecution card for so long
As for the tactics he has employed since June/July, they are hardly surprising
He had persuaded backers to part with an undisclosed sum to purchase the assets, and within days it looked like it was all going to fall apart
He had no option but to revert to the only message that he knew could save his project, and the rest as they say is history

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AgrajagPosted on12:42 pm - Oct 14, 2012


campsiejoe says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 12:36

There’s a fair chance he doesn’t want or need to use it for very long. Just long enough to bring in as much money as possible from the share issue.

One suspects that after that he will be off. Or if he stays then he will be having “peace talks” with all and sundry.

For the good of the game obviously.

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Stifler’s MomPosted on1:00 pm - Oct 14, 2012


They can’t handle the truth……..

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/comments-suspended-on-football-articles-1374220

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HirsutePursuitPosted on1:08 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Agrajag says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 12:03
1 0 Rate This
TSFM says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 11:31

I still haven’t seen anything to suggest that Charles Green is doing anything to benefit Ticketus.

Why would he, his business does not owe them any money. They are an unsecured creditor in the Rangers administration, soon to be liquidation.

=======================================================
http://www.rangers.co.uk/images/staticcontent/documents/administratorsinformation/RFC_2012_PLC_(Formerly_The_Rangers_Football_Club_plc)_Final_Progress_Report_to_Creditors.pdf

Ticketus
13.9 The Joint Administrators have continued to investigate the claims made by Ticketus in the
administration. The evidence available to the Joint Administrators suggests that the claims made by Ticketus against the Company are unenforceable. The Joint Administrators have taken advice from both solicitors and counsel in both England and Scotland on the validity or otherwise of the claims. The advice received is to the effect that there are a number of grounds on which the claims can be disputed in full. Following the legal advice received, the Joint Administrators consider that the claims made by Ticketus should be rejected in full for voting purposes. Ticketus have been given notice of this decision.

Ticketus, are considered not to have an enforceable claim against The Rangers Football Club plc (RFC2012 plc) – for unspecified legal reasons.

Lord Hodge ruled that D&P could refuse to honour the Ticketus contract; but that only Ticketus could “accept that as a repudiation, rescind the contract, and claim damages.”
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2012csoh55.html

I have posted on this issue many times; but there is no evidence that Ticketus ever claimed damages against Rangers FC plc for breach of contract. Their claim, as far as I am aware, has always been focused on CW, The Rangers Group (Wavetower) and Liberty.

D&P’s deal to sell the business & assets for £5.5m to Charles Green will only stand if it can be shown to have benefited the shareholders as a whole. Taking £27m out of the creditors claim can be argued to have been a good deal.

It would make absolute sense for Ticketus to surrender control of the CW floating charge in return for the purchase of the RFC(IA) assets at (an apparent) undervalue. If this is correct, and BDO undo the sale, Ticketus claim the floating charge and the unsecured creditors get nothing.

You are probably right that Green is not doing anything to benefit [the corporate entity] Ticketus. But, if using common language – where “Ticketus” is shorthand for the Ticketus investors – it is a considerable leap of faith to preclude the notion that those Ticketus investors are also Sevco investors.

Certainly, it is speculation either way; but, on the balance of probabilities, it seems much more likely to me, that everything Charles Green is doing, is for the benefit of Ticketus,

View Comment

wottpiPosted on1:28 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Agragjag / TSFM

I don’t thinkthat the total wage bill is £6m.
Just using what Mr Charles is saying along with known historical figures.

As TSFM says they won’t have interest etc to pay on the previous debt so they should be in a better position that I state.

I am sure it will all become clear when our friends who have registred interest in the shares receive their prospectus in the post.

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wottpiPosted on1:36 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Are we all assuming that Capita have access to T’Rangers list of season ticket holders, previous shareholder info, subscribers to other T’Rangers products etc so they can weed out those who have registed merely to get a look at the info and at least make an accurate stab at how many notices of interest may be genuine?

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smartie1947Posted on2:13 pm - Oct 14, 2012


RM seems to have crashed at the moment.
That’s what can happen when 500m fans, too excited to wait for next months live feed of the East Stirling game, all try to register for the share issue at the same time.
C’mon Mr Salmond, pour some more public money into improving broadband facilities. Not in the Western Isles, but in Glasgow G51, where there is clearly a need.

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spanishceltPosted on2:17 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Ive just registered my “interest” in Charlie boy’s share offer and I am number 80.* * * I then registered my son at a different email address and got the exact same ref no. so I then registered another interest for myself with different email address and again got the same ref no.
I got three separate emails to three different email address’s confirming the registration of interest but all with the same number.

Why would that happen ??????????????????????????????

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AgrajagPosted on2:19 pm - Oct 14, 2012


HirsutePursuit says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 13:08

==============================

The claims were rejected for voting purposes, which didn’t really matter as HMRC had so much anyway.

The bottom line though, whether they are owed money by Rangers or Craig Whyte, or indeed anyone else, is what business is it of Sevco or Charles Green.

” it is a considerable leap of faith to preclude the notion that those Ticketus investors are also Sevco investors.”

Charles would be proud of that level of double speak. It requires no leap of faith whatsoever to take things on face value. There is no evidence that I have seen to suggest that Sevco and Charles Green are working for or to the benefit of Ticketus.

I’m not saying it isn’t true, just that it is speculation. I could equally speculate that Charles Green and Craig Whyte are and were acting under the instruction of Sir David Murray and that this is the only way he could see to get “Rangers” out of the mess he had put it in. New company, new club, no debt, playing in the SPL.

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AgrajagPosted on2:21 pm - Oct 14, 2012


wottpi says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 13:28

=====================

No need to register, it will be available on-line.

It will all be there for the World to see if it goes ahead.

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AgrajagPosted on2:23 pm - Oct 14, 2012


@HP

Just one other thing, if you don’t mind. Something I have never grasped.

If Ticketus are not owed anything then what use is a floating charge to them. It would be a security over no debt.

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TallBoy Poppy (@TallBoyPoppy)Posted on2:27 pm - Oct 14, 2012


paulmac2 says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 12:04
——————————————————————————————————————————
From the KDS archives on 5July:
…….. corsica (r.i.p) mentions the Morpheus group of companies. If you recall the link made to Giles Green (possibly the son of Charles…to be confirmed). Anyway, at the same address as Morpheus in Archadia House Southampton is a company called Cheval Developments Limited, director – G. Green.
Cheval Developments Limited appear to be one of many similar companies called Cheval with huge portfolio of Properties. I’m not 100% certain all of them are linked but I’m pretty sure they’re all linked in one way or another. A Mr Brian Arthur Chard and the name Helix is also cropping up.
They are linked, in the sense that Morpheus Developments Limited changed it’s name to Cheval Developments Limited on 26/04/2010
Arcadia House is the address of BDO in Southampton, so they must be providing company secretarial services to these entities……..

and………..

Alessandro Celano is a director of 1508 London ltd, which has connections with a company called Morpheus Developements, a property development firm albeit in the luxury end of the market. However on of 1508 London’s directors, Alexandra de Blonay, is also a director of a firm called Morpheus 1508. Who have a Giles Alexander Green listed as a director. Not 100% sure he’s the son of Charles Alexander Green but it’s a fair bet…………..

That was in response to Corsica’s original post:
“Suggest that you focus on Formation Group (which bought Paul Stretford’s group, not the other way round), Morpheus and Alessandro Celano.
Charles Green was chair at Formation Group until February. It is run by an Irish (Limerick?) family which seems to have substantial private, offshore wealth (not sure how much) and has diversified and contracted quite alarmingly over past five years or so whilst Green was in charge. It also now is little more than a project management company based out of the back end of Hackney and is involved in a complex and stalled property development just east of the City. I checked out their registered office ages ago and it is in a new-build block (I wondered if they built it) on Hackney Road that looked residential. I could not see any presence of Formation.

Morpheus is interesting because Ellis has mentioned them a few times in other contexts – I can’t recall if he knows them or is involved or just wanted to get in on their act. They are a secretive little company set up to refurbish and interior design houses and flats in London for the uber-rich Arab world. Sort of Essex meets Egypt. I seem to recall them doing some work for Al Fayed.”

No mention of Cenkos, Paul. Hope this is some help.

View Comment

Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on2:55 pm - Oct 14, 2012


spanishcelt says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 14:17
5 0 Rate This
Ive just registered my “interest” in Charlie boy’s share offer and I am number 80.* * * I then registered my son at a different email address and got the exact same ref no. so I then registered another interest for myself with different email address and again got the same ref no.
I got three separate emails to three different email address’s confirming the registration of interest but all with the same number.

Why would that happen ??????????????????????????????

===================================

i had exactly the same experience last night

View Comment

Lamp Post SanniesPosted on2:59 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Maybe the registration system is logging the i.p. addresses as well as noting e-mails.
This could be a way of filtering out mass fake registrations from the one computer.

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loamfeetPosted on3:07 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Not that I would wish to encourage this disgraceful duplicitousness but if you didn’t close your browser and clear your cookie cache the web site may have recognised you from cookies it set the first time you applied.

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jmaclurePosted on3:15 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Honestly, do you think that Celtic supporters registering for a Rangers share offer and then posting it on here somehow enhances the inclusitivity of TSFM?

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ordinaryfanPosted on3:22 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Regarding the attendances, the way I see it is that when RFC were an SPL club they held back the entire league.
They cheated to stay at the top of the pile, if they lived within their means other Clubs over the past decade or so would would have had better chances of finishing higher or winning the Cup competitions. Successful clubs bring in supporters, the SPL has had to function with an gigantic anchor around its neck.
Of course Clubs are struggling, they had been long before the death of RFC. It will take time, dedication and hard work to clean up the horrific mess RFC has left behind. But that’s the point, one Club has corrupted the game in Scotland. As far as I’m concerned, without them at least Scottish Football stands a fighting chance.

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briggsbhoyPosted on3:22 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Goosygoosy @ 00:57 Sat 13th
The 3 Bears

Never mind the porridge who stole the money for the tax man and the other debtors?

View Comment

briggsbhoyPosted on3:24 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Goosygoosy @ 00:57 Sat 13th
The 3 Bears

Never mind the porridge who stole the money for Hector and the other debtors?

View Comment

AgrajagPosted on3:26 pm - Oct 14, 2012


ordinaryfan says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 15:22

=========================

Indeed, a level playing field and everyone being treated the same can only be good for the game.

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ordinaryfanPosted on3:30 pm - Oct 14, 2012


giesagonk: That is common practice. If I was to do it I would just use my laptop and the 3 internet accessible mobile phones in my house.

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TSFMPosted on3:46 pm - Oct 14, 2012


jmaclure says:

Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 15:15(Edit)

Honestly, do you think that Celtic supporters registering for a Rangers share offer and then posting it on here somehow enhances the inclusitivity of TSFM?

____________________________________________________________________

Not if you’ve made your mind up in advance that we (TSFM) are the enemy – and it hasn’t prevented you from trolling time after time.

If you have a comment on the politics of the blog, please direct it to TSFM at the contacts page. If you have anything worthwhile or constructive to say, you are more than welcome to join in.

For the record, we are not the enemy – the people who have destroyed your club are.

And I don’t see how registration for information on the share issue makes us exclusive. The natural scepticism of non Rangers fans might even be of some help.

View Comment

angus1983Posted on3:57 pm - Oct 14, 2012


jmaclure says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 15:15

Honestly, do you think that Celtic supporters registering for a Rangers share offer and then posting it on here somehow enhances the inclusitivity of TSFM?

——

Of course not. That’s why the Aberdeen, Hearts and other supporters did it too. Far more inclusive.

Hope that puts your mind at rest. 🙂

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AgrajagPosted on4:12 pm - Oct 14, 2012


There may even have been some Rangers fans applying.

Maybe even to get a copy of the prospectus, with a view to deciding whether or not they thought it was a good idea to put their money into the business.

Or some people who don’t support a Scottish football team, but are interested in the investment opportunity, but have to see some actual details before deciding.

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ExiledCeltPosted on4:21 pm - Oct 14, 2012


JMCLure – I am one of these Far East Investors CG is telling you lot about that has an urgent need to pour money in a Glasgow football team that is not shown on the TV over here and never is in the newspaper, despite cheating the Govt out of taxes to the tun of 78 million quid. Mind you, many Myanmar and Indonesians bankers have doen similar things – I beleive one of them may well be one of CG’s investors. So if he can make a mint out of this, why not me I thought….

By the way – I applied on Thursday and am still waiting for my email of confirmation – seems my Far East IP may have been discriminated against – I hope not – as I heard the Generals from Myanmar were applying as well. Not offten you can double the money of the country you have looted 🙂

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HirsutePursuitPosted on4:55 pm - Oct 14, 2012


Agrajag says:
Sunday, October 14, 2012 at 14:23
2 0 Rate This
@HP

Just one other thing, if you don’t mind. Something I have never grasped.

If Ticketus are not owed anything then what use is a floating charge to them. It would be a security over no debt.
=================================================
D&P sought creditor claims for a CVA – which, of course, ultimately failed.

I have seen no evidence (in fact, quite the opposite) that Ticketus made a claim – as an unsecured creditor – for the purposes of that CVA.

In theory (if not in practical terms) Ticketus still have a valid contract with RFC(IA) that should see them paid according to the agreed schedule. Of course, they won’t be paid – but, as it stands, they appear to have no CURRENT debt with RFC(IA).

It is only if/when Ticketus accept non-performance “as a repudiation, rescind the contract, and claim damages”, that the debt becomes something that the administrators or liquidators can deal with. Without a valid claim for damages, they cannot disadvantage the other creditors by allowing debt that is merely assumed. As I say, to my knowledge, Ticketus have not yet pressed that button.

So the very big question is why??

We know that CW kept the floating charge alive when the HB0S debt was repaid and assigned it to Wavetower. This is a known fact.

CW/ Wavetower have no valid debt associated with that floating charge. This has been asserted, on a number of occasion by D&P and is not really disputed.

We are told (by both CW & Ticketus) that CW gave commercial & personal guarantees to Ticketus. We have no real reason to think this is not true.

We are told that Ticketus have started legal proceedings against CW and Liberty. We can, I think, agree this is a reasonable action in the circumstances.

We know that a floating charge was placed over the assets of Ranger Group (Wavetower) to the benefit of Liberty. This was registered some time ago and, again is not at issue.

We know then, with a fairly high degree of certainty, that Liberty are the ultimate beneficiaries of the RFC(IA) floating charge (but have no associated debt) and that Ticketus have a potential claim against both Liberty and RFC(IA).

From all of the aforementioned, and without too much speculation, we can deduce that Ticketus (with the acquiescence of CW) could convert their potential (as it stands at the moment) RFC(IA) debt of circa £27m to a debt secured by a perfectly valid and enforceable floating charge.

Perhaps CW is playing hard-ball and Ticketus do not yet have control of the floating charge. Maybe he is looking for some pay-off before signing control over… perhaps.

But, on the other hand, even with an enforceable floating charge, Ticketus will only see £1m – 2m of their £27m on the basis of the sale of assets at £5.5m.

And lets look at that £5.5m sale.

The current rateable value of Murray Park is £600k – for Ibrox it is £1.9m.
http://www.saa.gov.uk/

What is rateable value?

The Scottish Assessors give all non-domestic property in Scotland a rateable value, which is a legally-defined valuation of a property, broadly based on an analysis of annual rental values.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Government/local-government/17999/11199/brief-guide

So, we have two properties – with legally-defined valuations that say they should command around £2.5m in annual rent. Say that £2.5m is too high. Say, to be conservative, it should be £2m. Say, you’re looking for a generous 20% gross return on your investment. If the annual rent is £2m, the property value is around £10m. In reality, £15m – £20m should be achievable in an open sale. So why were the properties sold for £1.5m?

Charles sold £10m of STs and is looking to raise another £20m on the strength of the Rangers FC brand. It appears to me that the Rangers FC brand – and the other trademarks – have a value running into high seven figures.Why was the brand sold for £1 along with all the other aspects of “goodwill”?

Why did they continue trading and the administration allowed to run a £4m loss?

The only answer, that makes any sense to me, is that the administrators can “write-off” a larger amount of debt than they cost the creditors by trading at a loss and selling under-value. While everyone was fixating on the possibility of HMRC going against policy and agreeing a CVA, the real deal, I think, was done with Ticketus.

It seems common sense, that the Ticketus investors were in a strong position to negotiate a deal with D&P that would see them get the assets cheaply by allowing the unsecured creditors to pick up some scraps.

If I am correct, Ticketus will never make a claim against RFC(IA) if the sale to Sevco stands. If BDO threaten to undo the sale, Ticketus will threaten to make a floating charge claim against RFC(IA). If that claim stands up (and I see no reason it would not) Ticketus get everything up to £27m and the unsecured creditors get nothing. As this would be a worse result for creditors as a whole, BDO would not, in those circumstances, undo the sale.

IMO, if D&P don’t have some “get-out”, they are on an extremely sticky wicket – both professionally and legally. I can see no other explanation for any of the apparently baffling events and decisions, than that the “confidential” part of the Sevco sale was that Ticketus would not claim on the CVA.

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m8dreamerPosted on5:10 pm - Oct 14, 2012


M8Dreamer

The forthcoming Rangers Tribute Act Share Offer is of little importance to Scottish Football supporters with the exception of any deluded RTA supporters, who wish to participate in this modern day Robin Hood of robbing the poor to pay the rich.
It is essential that the TSFM Blog concentrates soley on the bigger picture of ensuring that all guilty parties in the demise of Rangers Football Club and the subsequent media/football authority
cover up/conspiracy are identified and dealt with appropriately.
This is the largest fraud, corruption and cheating scandal that has been perpetretted within British Sport and should be treated as such and not swept under the carpet like so many would prefer.
The Internet Bampots and the few honourable members of the MSM must continue in their efforts to ensure that Sporting Integrity is upheld by everyone within the sport that we love.

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