We spend an inordinate amount of time on this blog arguing about what the re-emergent Rangers should be called. It is a rather circular debate with no way of finding any consensus. The dispute between Rangers (“The Rangerists”) or The Rangers or Sevco (“The Sevconians”) and its claim to be the club that was formed in the 19th century is spurious. Whichever way you look at it, the continuity of the “brand” is undeniable and as long those who wish to keep buying that package are satisfied that the wrapping is authentic – where’s the harm?
The red herring in the argument is that “history” is important. To the average football fan, it is nothing of the kind. As a Celtic fan myself, and a bit of a student of the history of the club, I am constantly dismayed by the Thousand Yard Stare I get from your average Celtic fan who is confronted with the names of people who contributed significantly to the club’s identity. Key figures like Sandy McMahon, Jimmy Delaney, Jimmy McGrory and (God help us) John Thomson rarely elicit recognition.
Modern football fans who live in the instant gratification society of the the WWW and mobile communications may pay lip service to their clubs’ history, but that’s not what gives the modern football fan wears as his badge of honour. That is a commodity often erroneously confused with history – the bragging rights associated with the trophy haul.
The ability to claim that “we have more titles than you” is far more valuable to a supporter than which 19th century attacking centre-back won the Scottish Cup with a last minute header; and the value of said cup wins is heavily weighted in favour of the most recent (save for the honourable exception of the European successes).
The maintenance of that illusion of superiority is crucial if Rangers fans are to believe that their club is still Rangers. Perhaps in time they may even come to fully believe it themselves, but the cataract of column inches devoted to propagating that myth, both from the MSM and from information outlets controlled by Charles Green’s organisation, betrays a lack of total belief by the chief Bear-existentialists. Protesting too much may not be subtle, but that never put off your average fitba’ man either.
The upshot though is this. There is a belief – or at least a hope – amongst Rangerists that the continuity argument holds. They will call the new club Rangers. Fans of other clubs who make up the vast majority of the Sevconian tendency, believe nothing of the kind. They will call it something else.
Many will remind Rangerists that the old club died, and this is factually correct (or at least will be very soon). Rangerists will counter that the Rangers ethos lives on at Ibrox, and despite the worrying overtones (for some) contained in that statement, that is also factually correct.
Rangerists will also point out, as Rangers fans on this blog already have, that the SPL bent over backwards to assist the continuity of the club in order to minimise the financial consequences for Scottish football, and that the SFL too, have agreed that they are the same club.
Why? Simply because Scottish Football thinks it needs to help perpetrate they illusion of continuity to avoid the loss of thousands of paying customers to the game altogether.
So round one has gone to the Rangerists, with the Sevconians pretty much taking an eight-count.
So is the name thing important? I don’t think it is of critical importance. The name in itself doesn’t matter, but to merely agree that everything is as before is to join forces with the MSM, SFA & SPL who have sought to give RFC and their tax theft a pass.
Whatever happens in the future though, the illusion hasn’t worked completely. The Sevconians’ wish to call the new club by a different name was for the purpose of making it synonymous with tax evasion, however the name Rangers now evokes exactly that response. There is now a discernible pause when people mention Rangers. A pause that reflects on the dis-service they did to the country, and to the game of football in Scotland.
Which brings us to the really important point. Throughout this saga rules have been bent. Conflicted individuals, alleged to have been involved in the tax and registration scam and its subsequent cover-up, have remained in positions of authority and power, despite being under a cloud throughout. The media have been complicit, except in rare cases, in allowing the wrong-doing to go unquestioned, actively campaigning for rules not to be applied.
What we have been saying all along is this. Please play the game by the rules, and do not manufacture special cases for the financially powerful.
Call Rangers whatever you wish, but deal with their transgressions appropriately in the spirit of sporting fairness, and within the framework of the existing rules. That is the least – and most – we expect. We don’t ask for much. Just give us back some pride in our sport .
TSFM says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 20:45
1 0 Rate This
I agree. Which is why I would have thought that anyone attempting to restore the brand’s integrity would have gone about their business in a more conciliatory way than CG has.
========================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism
Standard practice, I’m afraid. 🙁
dl2068 says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 20:53
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Investor?…I was asking who the OWNERS of Ibrox stadium are?
As long as the history is reflected in the record books, Rangers can call themselves what ever they choose. They can’t have it both ways . They would like to maintain all the “good” parts and disassociate themselves with the atrocities “in the footballing sense” they have carried out over the years.
When history is recorded, it must be factual , so once we have the results delivered from all the hearings / tribunals / court cases , it will become fact and recorded as such. That said I can’t believe in this day and age , we don’t have any editors / journalists with the courage to ask and keep asking the questions everyone in Scotland (apart from Rangers) would like answered. I don’t buy any papers now because of this , the majority just quote the propaganda being fed “like feeding babies” with very little or no response at all, just like MSM , pathetic really.
[SFM Edit]
I’ve no doubt Naqvi is AN investor but the real controllers are Octopus/Ticketus, whose interests are being assiduously looked after by their pals at Zeus Capital, who control the operations of Sevco.
And the craven nature of the Scottish newspapers’ acquiescence in this charade strongly suggests to me that Murray still has his grubby paws in there too.
Green is just a thuggish rabble-rouser, there to wind up the gullible hordes and divert attention away from the real scam.
That may fool the majority of old Rangers fans but it won’t persuade any serious investors to part with cash.
We live in interesting times.
paulmac2 says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 21:00
dl2068 says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 20:53
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Investor?…I was asking who the OWNERS of Ibrox stadium are?
==============================================================
For what it’s worth,Paulmac,I think Ibrox is owned by Sevco 5088.
Here’s my theory,probably wrong but here it is,step by step:
1.Sevco 5088 buy the assets of RFC(IA).
2.CG then sets up Sevco Scotland on the premise that you need to be registered in Scotland to play here.Announces that Sevco Scotland have transferred “Certain Assets” from Sevco 5088.
3.I think these “certain Assets” may be the players,staff etc and the tangible assets have been left with Sevco 5088.
4.CG can now arrange for Sevco Scotland to pay rent,reported to be as much as £4.89m p/a to Sevco 5088,both companies are owned by his consortium.
5.He securitises the rent against the season tickets.thus guaranteeing his consortium their cash,knowing that:
6.If the slurry hits the air conditioning,he can always sell up,either to a genuine RFC consortium(if such a thing exists) or sell the site for development.
For CG,it’s win win.
If you believe that Ticketus are CGs employers and Whyte is still in the frame,then,if everything goes pear shaped,sell the site,get your cash,pay Whyte a couple of million in lieu of the floating charge and everyone ‘s happy(unless you’re an RFC fan,you’re screwed,again).
Just a theory from an amateur sleuth.Fell free to shoot it down.
Eloquently said as usual JC.
Maybe if we can all move on and accept that the club is a continuation, then maybe we wont look to deeply at the governance of the game, and the way the journalists have conducted themselves during minty’s tenure through whyte and onto greens rabble rousing group.
Who benefits if we dont examine where the faults lay.
The current sfa presidente, and a major figure at the countries biggest newspaper who happens to have a bbc soapbox to boot.
Like you, i also have no desire to leave such untrustworthy souls in positions of unquestioned influence.
Ok, It’s Sunday night, start of a new week.
Can we have a list of 1 sentence questions that you would ask in an interview with “Champaign (monte) Carlo Charlie, given the opportunity?
To start the ball rolling……….
1. Charles, what does your company own?
2. Charles, why did you just lie?
bangordub says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 21:34
I’m posting on behalf of my good friend Bomber, so my question to Charlie is
2. “Whaurs the deeds? “
“You reeeeee….ally want all of the history?”
Charles, will you be paying Ticketus – in money or tickets?
1.Charles, Who are you working for.
2.Charles What do you know about SFA officials that allows you to say or do as you wish without fear of any consequences
Charlie…I know whatever I ask..you’ll just feed me horsesh!t…so can I have a look at the deeds!
Charlie lets cut to the chase…do you get many Jimmy Jewel look-a-like gigs?
AMcC doesn’t do walking away, paying taxes nor embarrassment.
Charles.
A few months ago you stated that it was your intention to be out of Ibrox within a short period, a year if I remember correctly. More recently you stated that in your time The Rangers would never play in the SPL. If your first statement was true then obviously your second one is also true. My point however is this. Should The Rangers eventually reach a position where they have progressed through the leagues and are able to move on up to the SPL, or there is league reconstruction which would put them in a similar position, are you honestly asking me to believe that you would still decline entry into the SPL?
Charles, do you only have the one suit?
dl2068 says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 20:36
Green’s consortium own Ibrox and Murray Park ( seen by SFA and RFFF.
——————————————————————————————————————-
I don’t believe that for one moment. The RFFF Committee consists of
Walter Smith
Ally McCoist
Sandy Jardine
Jim Hannah
Andy McCormick
Robert Roddie
William Montgomery
Mark Dingwall
Andrew Smillie
Andrew Kerr
David McCutcheon
John McKee
Jim Riddell
Quite a few of them would be shouting it from the rooftops if Green’s consortium owned either of the above and had been shown evidence.
Questions Chazza Green:
What is the information you have on Walter Smith that has kept him quiet?
What is the information you have on Vladimir Romanov that has kept him quiet?
Come to think of it has Sandy Jardine not gone awfy quiet recently? Not even a wee photie. What does he do anyway?
wjohnston1 says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 23:00
‘..Charles.
A few months ago you stated that it was your intention to be out of Ibrox within a short period, a year if I remember correctly. More recently you stated that in your time The Rangers would never play in the SPL. If your first statement was true then obviously your second one is also true. My point however is this. Should The Rangers eventually reach a position where they have progressed through the leagues and are able to move on up to the SPL, or there is league reconstruction which would put them in a similar position, are you honestly asking me to believe that you would still decline entry into the SPL?’
——–
It may be a trifle fanciful, but I tie in Charles’ assertion that he would never play in the SPL with Ogilvie’s re-emergence publicly to state that he wants to talk to said Charles.
I am ready to believe that plans are afoot, pushed hard by Ogilvie, to get a restructuring in place for next season, sufficient financial inducements to the SFL being promised.
I believe, further, that this plan has been put to CG, who will have given it the nod with an evil grin as he sees the propaganda value of being able to assert that he will never play in the SPL while knowing that he has been promised a place in the ‘top flight’, which, of course, will not be called ‘SPL’
Duplicity is such second nature to some!
And it’s made so much easier when there is a compliant press and radio.
The puzzling thing to me is the apparent readiness of The Rangers ‘ support to accept CG’s willingness to deny them access to Europe.
How can they be so ready to lose all aspiration?
“How can they be so ready to lose all aspiration?”
Confusion, obsufication, desperation.
in the spirit of the thing, my question to Charles:
‘ Charles Bucknall Green, do you think your mammy would be proud of what you made of your life?
Shyster, huckler, ranting rabble rouser, stooge of others, metaphorically hunted as a chancer, failed del-boy and all round snake-oil salesman?’
john clarke says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 23:44
Glorious !
Chuckles. Is the offer of a 25 year deal for A McC still on the table?
Rank and file supporters stopped the scam from taking place last close season
When the Establishment mount their next assault on integrity, will the combined supporters of Scottish clubs be up for it again?
wjohnston1 says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 23:26
‘.Come to think of it has Sandy Jardine not gone awfy quiet recently? …’
—
No one was more surprised than I when Sandy sort of lost it.
We both drank of a Thursday evening in the Liberton Inn.
Not together, of course, but sometimes at adjacent tables in the civilised surroundings that that pub provided, in the ’80s, and would exchange the ordinary civilities of ‘regulars’.
I am happy for him that he has clearly realised that the club he loved, and was prepared to fight for , is actually no more.
The Glasgow Rangers that he loved is gone.
And working to make money for the likes of CG’s consortium is not going to bring it back.
As one who nearly saw the extinction of my own club at the hands of that b….Kelly, and who looked desperately for a saviour ( and what a blessing Fergus turned out to be!), I have great sympathy for those who fought to save their club.
But who were let down by their ‘money men’, whose interest was not in saving the club but in making money from its carcass.
Give me the Sandys and the’ Bombers’ any day: they are at least utterly honest in their convictions, however questionable those may be.
And their contempt for SDM ,whose stupid arrogance they would have seen as solid reassurance that their club was in good hands, is beyond measure, albeit tinged by embarrassment that they should have been so taken in!
History, schmistory!
Anyone who believes, after formal liquidation (important point that!) that ~Sevco Scotland’s, The Rangers are the old Rangers should think on.
If successful in claiming the club is distinct from the corporate entity then every ‘club’ (of any nature) can effectively write off any debts on it books (not only it’s tax debts), as many times as they so desire, so long as the debts are accrued in the name of the corporate entity and not the club.
That would include other football clubs (such as my favourite, Kilmarnock), golf clubs, bowling clubs, ice hockey clubs, bingo clubs, social clubs, political clubs, O.A.P. clubs, community clubs, etc., etc., etc., etc.,
In fact, all any business need do is proclaim it operates on a not-for-profit basis (excluding administration fees and expenses of course!), with the operational arm being a social/environmental/charitable/community club and hey presto! Taxes no more!!!!
There are rules against pheonix companies for a very particular reason. If HMRC sanction the illusion of Sevco Scotland’s The Rangers as what was formerly Rangers, what signal will that send out?
One they can’t afford to allow I would bet.
Observer says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 20:47
Observer! I fully expected you to reply and you have every right to do so and I’m sure that steam was coming out your ears as it was when I first read your comments to my post re SSB, hence my reply. In your initial response to me your comment “guys like you” I must admit got my back up and annoyed me immensely, overall I felt it was dismissive and discourteous, an attack as you call it. In basic terms it was as bit like you saying piss aff ya twat, people like you are irrelevant. For someone with a thick skin and a brass neck I may have been a bit oversensitive. If you thought that response was lengthy I can tell you that my original intended response was an epic of BHRT proportions, you got the shortened version.
I’m not sure if I have anything to apologise for because I have never called you a liar or inferred that you were and it was never my intention to do so. I simply stated that “I believe you misquoted Mr Guidi”. I had to listen to that recording a few times to assure myself what was actually said. If you look back at the old posts when it was first raised there was debate on what was said, hence I feel you misquoted and I’m not saying you did so purposely.
The words that I highlighted were “I hope” which in my opinion were not said, maybe a few of the guys on here can give their independent opinion on that! You state.
Graham Bryce is MD of Bauer media and effectively in charge of Radio Clyde. On 24th September I put to him in an email that the following was a true transcript of the SuperScoreBoard of 18th Sept:
Jim Delahunt: “… if they do strip (Rangers of) titles, what do you think will be the reaction of supporters on the ground?”
Mark Guidi: “The Rangers fan’s will be up in arms and I hope it’ll kick off.”
Jim Delahunt: “Civil war, isn’t it?”
Mark Guidi: “Yeah”.
You can see from Mr Bryce’s reply to me below that he does not dispute that this is a true record of the broadcast.
More – he says that there is no disputing my transcript AFTER he met with Guidi & Delahunt to hear their explanation of this broadcast.
Ie: neither Guidi nor Delahunt disputed with their boss that they said what I averred that they had said.
As I said my argument with you was regarding the words “I hope” as it changed the emphasis on the alleged statement and as you can see I have highlighted your comment that Mr Bryce does not dispute that this is a true record of the broadcast. I may have missed it but I have cut and pasted directly from the responses to you;
“His intention in the comment that fans will be “up in arms” and it will “kick-off” was to say that there would be a significant reaction to such a sanction”
“I do not agree that terms like “kick-off” imply a violent reaction, but merely a significant reaction”
I don’t see the words “I hope” used by Mr Bryce do you? I may be pedantic but I think those two words are important
I spent over 25 years of my career as a manager in customer sales/service and when issues arose my staff knew they better have their facts right when I came calling. I used to constantly enforce that when they were dealing with customer, suppliers or any third party you CYA (cover your arse), take notes, get names, seek confirmation, because if they didn’t the consequences could be severe. The introduction of recorded calls did make life a bit easier let me tell you, so listening to recordings of telephone calls could be an almost weekly occurrence. My tenacity was both a failing and a positive in that part of my career and it sometimes blinkered me when I had the bit between my teeth. In some respects I can see that you to are tenacious looking at a number of your posts and in your correspondence with Mr Bryce, you go for it. Sometimes however one needs to step back and take stock and see what’s acyually being said. Never thought there was anything in this Guidi & Delahunt thing and I am still of that opinion and you and many on here will disagree, that’s fine.
So did I call you a liar? I don’t think so but let me tell you I called you a few other things. Hopefully this is where we draw the line because we are on the same team but if I was the manager you’d be on the subs bench.
Bangordub
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 21:34
Ok, It’s Sunday night, start of a new week.
Can we have a list of 1 sentence questions that you would ask in an interview with “Champaign (monte) Carlo Charlie, given the opportunity?
To start the ball rolling……….
1. Charles, what does your company own?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How happy do you think Fat Sally is with the 3 dummies you signed without him seeing them play and how much do you stand to make from that overall?
Rangers the football team will continue as long as their fans want it to and it will always be Rangers to the fans and I think that is fair enough.
Even after Charles has taken the money and done a moonlight they will come again and we should help them
The rangers supporters need a rangers and it’s a human thing that would apply to all the top teams
I abhor how they got finagled into the league three years too soon and ahead of diddy clubs who should have had a chance
I hope the Campbell invented criteria gets the history it deserves.
I am saddened that just because they are a club with “harmony” and the SFA’s team of choice that they get treatment different to Spartans and I hate the corruption endemic in our wee country
And wee Alex with his refusal to tell us what he did and asked is disgraceful to any fair minded voter
I also hate the NI nonsense that is being cranked up by the current Ticketus consortium for the basest commercial reasons and think this is playing with fire and will lead to real human beings being hurt. – I personally have never seen what Red Hands have to do with Scottish Football (nor do I see what Tricolours add to our national game (and I have proud Irish roots)
If I was an NI voter I’d ask robinson why he isn’t spending his time on his own teams!
I do however prefer the idea of a proud resurgent Rangers with Teuchter roots rather than then sad and forlorn supremacy Ulster baggage that the club acquired many years after its proud Teuchter origins and I’d like to see the cheating years acknowledged as such and removed from the claims and bragging rights of Sevco.
Rant over
Questions to Charlie;
Do you manage to sleep at night?
Are you proud of your own behaviour in recent weeks ?
Do you love money over everything – and everyone else ?
Do you think you will end your days as a wealthy – but lonely individual?
Do you believe in Karma? 😉
Etc…
As I posted yesterday the results of TRFC in SFL3 are inconsequential to me – there is no impact on my team for their results and as for good nature banter, that has died a death with CG and his rabbel rousing – so if you are not affected by their results and your TRFC mates/family members take the hump at any banter, then there is no point in even bothering. More bother than its worth.
For the fans piling money into Ibrox coffers – I am split 50-50 – I know if I was in their shoes, I would be desperate to keep my club. Back in the last share issue, no one from the fans to the board cared since Murray was supposed to be able to bail them out at any time he wanted. Now this is their first time they are needed and I have no doubt much like the ST sales, the shares will be lapped up.
Having seen CW walked away having destroyed them, I would think many would be a bit reticent to part with money. Over in RM it is now Mr Green this and Mr Green that – he has emerged as the epitomy of a spiv master and has them eating out of his hand currently.
My sympathies are now exhausted – part of me know that many of these families cannot afford to spend 500 quid on some worthless shares and will be the ones going into debt to “help the club” but it won’t be. I have given up trying to discuss this with my family (all TRFC fans) as anytime I try to discuss, I get told I am obsessed and mind my own business.
My fear is that at the end of it all – TRFC will be going down the same path as RFC – to the knackers yard.
And then there will be the ramifications of what we were told this summer that supposedly this could never occur – with the speeches of social unrest and armageddon etc.
The SFA/Scottish Govt in their haste to avoid the loss of the fabric of Scottish society handed the chalice to a spiv meister – they have no idea what a stupid decision that will turn out to be – now what the impact will be when he runs off to BVI, heaven only knows………..
Charlie are you Sevco Jekyll or Sevco Hyde?
Who do you want to be remembered by in future history ?
There can only be one.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/zero-hour-for-rangers-amid-frustration-of-forthbank-blank.19077292
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/rangers-chairman-in-horns-of-a-dilemma-after-latest-setback.19077177
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/stirling-albion-1-0-rangers-monumental-albion-win-sees-rangers-at-new-low-1-2565277
Observer
Maybe misquote is the the right word or should it be misunderstood, misheard or mistook, that is of course if you agree with with my version of what was heard
briggsbhoy says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 02:05
I know the last thing we need here is in fighting on this site but feel I must offer a degree of support to yourself.
When listening to the ‘original’ SSB rewind of the show I too found it hard to hear the word ‘hope’. Even after a few listens to my ear it was a stutter or a bit of glut in Guidi’ throat that made him garble that part of his sentence.
This was a football programme so the use of ‘kick off’ in meaning to start something isn’t a big deal. Delahunts use of ‘civil war’ was perhaps not the best choice of words but the terms is used by sports reporters and bloggers alike.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17467025
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-288814227.html – Daily Record Headline
http://www.scottishfootballblog.co.uk/2011/01/sfa-hit-neil-lennon-for-six.html
As for Observers e-mails to Mr Bryce, I agree that the Clyde man appears to be oblivious to the concern of the word ‘hope’ being used as it is not stressed in the same manner as being argued on these pages.
Mr Bryce seems to be more than willing to answer questions so perhaps Observer should go back with a more direct question on the ‘hope’ aspect of what was being said given that Guidi is supposed to be an impartial contributor. In other words why was Guidi ‘hoping’ that things would kick off?
The simple answer (if he did say hope) could of course be that as a man wanting to sell newspapers the stripping of titles means an easy few weeks filling columns to gain ones salary and bonuses.
stunney says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 07:31
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/rangers-chairman-in-horns-of-a-dilemma-after-latest-setback.19077177
Ok here’s where we have a problem.
I open the link with two things in my mind. Has Rangers Chairman Malcolm Murray emerged from the same cave Campbell Ogilvie was hiding in or has the Herald given Mr Charles the wrong title.
The first line of the piece confirms the latter by talking about Green being the ‘owner’. Just to make it clear Charles Green is neither Chairman, as per the headline implies, or the owner of Rangers. He is the Chief Executive Officer of the club and the ‘front’ for the consortium who owns the club. Thats consortium appears to be made up of a number of named investors who it has been reported have various percentages of ‘share’ ownership.
A word search of the article indicates no mention whatsoever of Malcolm Murray (the real Chairman).
Therefore I haven’t even read the article.
I was going to say that from his picture Grameme Macpherson looks like a young lad so lets give him a chance.
However on looking at his linkedin page not only does he hold a BAHons he also has a Post Grad Diploma in Journalism.
To make matters even worse he lists his previous employment as being a reporter for 5 years at, you guessed it, Rangers Football Club.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/graeme-macpherson/27/3a/a09.
If, with all these qualifications and ten years experience in reporting on football, (five with the club the article is about) someone can not distinguish between owners, chairmen and CEO’s then what hope do we have?
wottpi – Malcolm who? Has he gone fishing with Sandy Jardine? Good pick up tho – CG is now the embodiment of the whole package – if I made mistakes liek this in my line of work I would be fired or at least put to my correct grade – makes you wonder if it is deliberate.
or am I paranoid?
From the super, soar away sun,
ALLY McCOIST is poised to punish the flops who shamed Rangers with defeat at Stirling — by dumping them in the RESERVES tonight.
SunSport understands livid McCoist could field up to NINE of the side that lost 1-0 at Forthbank on Saturday in the SFL reserve league game against Airdrie United at the Excelsior Stadium.
Anything to do with a wee payback to the Airdie chairman, surely not?
wjohnston1 says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 23:26
Come to think of it has Sandy Jardine not gone awfy quiet recently? Not even a wee photie. What does he do anyway?
—–
I’ll tell you what he does. Walking away. 🙂
Meantime, can we drop the “I hope” thing? Anyone whose lugs have recently been cleaned out will confirm that, even if sonic enhancement is desperatly applied to the clip, there is simply no way the words “I hope” are uttered at any stage. This is not my opinion – it is plain to hear.
I have heard it said that people who look older than their years must have had a ‘hard paper-round’. Well, stunney must look about 437 because every morning without fail, I find he has yet again managed to deliver stateside.
I too took exception to the Macpherson piece, so much so that I posted my first ever comment on the Herald site. It is currently in moderation and likely to remain there, though it was basically just a 3 line comment along very similar lines to wottpi’s post here at 8:58.
Absolutely shocking that any journalist can get such basic details wrong, unless it is deliberate of course though why it would be, god knows.
Listen, it is Rangers, discussion over!
They got beat 1-0 by Stirling Albion, bottom of the Third Division, not won for 5 games, their manager missed it because he was getting married.
I would say the worst result in our history, with probably a few more to come.
C’est la vie!
Yes, it is definitely Rangers, why would so many people want to let me know about it?
🙂
More thoughts on this old new club thing…..
I used to hate Airdrie – I did not like them at all. The main reason was that everytime I went there in the late 70’s ealry 80’s there was always a battle with some locals – this led to my one and only time I was hammered for wearing a Celtic scarf. Had a few near misses at other places including Ibrox – but this was different. Groups of folks were running up and down the main street – I being a young non violent person (some would say coward, others mature) stood in a shop doorway watching the battle not able to get to safety. Someone smacked me – did not see it coming as it came from the side. As I fell some boots came in – I scrambled to me feet and ran after getting a few more blows.
Anyway – after that kicking – I hated Airdrie. Their awful strips – that stupid pavilion – and their fans especially and their hero Sandy Clark. Hated them all.
Then they departed the top divisions and I never saw them much thereafter.
Next time was at their new ground in a League Cup – at Excelsior Stadium – it was not the same club I hated all those years before but seeing those strips brought the feelings back again.
Now they are Airdire United – and no longer the club that had supporters that kcked the daylights out of me.
The referee Bobby Davidson came from Airdire, which was another reason I disliked the place.
In the summer, we found out that Jim Ballantyne owned shares in the old RFC despite being on the board of Airdrie – another reason to wonder…..
I see from the website that tonights game is now open to the public
RESERVE MATCH v RANGERS
4th October 2012
Due to unforeseen demand for this Monday’s Reserve league match between Airdrie and Rangers, it will now be an open door event.
Kick off is 8.00pm, Adults £4.00 entry and a child goes free as long as accompanied by a paying adult. Our apologies for the confusion.
For some reason I cannot get over my dislike of Airdire – even thought the club is not the same one that played when I went to see them and had my head used as a football…………
Not sure why that can be when its not the same club that plays at the same ground that I used to have a phobia about – but definitely strange when people argue that its only because they play at Ibrox they are the same team.
It is a mindset.
And not logical to any legal definition.
Sincere apologies to any Airdire fans – unless you were one of the ones that smacked a young fan in a butchers doorway while he was eating a bag oif chips!
wottpi says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 08:01
Thanks for taking the time to review, much appreciated, as you say and I alluded to there is a milli second where he changes his words at the start of his sentence. I have no doubt that Observer having put out a fair degree of effort in chasing Clyde for comment and took umbrage at my light dimissal of what he saw as a fight worth fighting. Unfortunately the manner in which he did it, got my back up. I believe that if Guidi had said ” I hope it kicks off” then he should have been taken to task but at the time the disputed comments were made Rangers had lost no titles or cups and still haven’t. So I felt at that time that they were meaningless and would be long forgotten (maybe not) by the time matters re titles came to a head. If he had said such on the week or day that this actually happened then the complaint should not have been just to Offcom but to Strathclyde Police. Observer would have got my full support if that was the case.
jmaclure says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 09:58
Could it be that a brand new club have outspent all their rivals in the division and are still pants?
Elbows gets more money in 1 week than the entire Binos team do for the month.
The Stirling manager could not afford to lose his deposit on his wedding – and it was not in hello magazine.
We all love an underdog. We all hate the establishments favourites.
Nothing to do with whom you pretend to be – it is what you ar ecurrently.
An over confident full time team with internationalists overpaid for their work getting beat by joiners and firemen and kids
That could be why so many folks are yanking your chain……
wottpi,
Sloppy journalism on your part – Graeme Macpherson does not refer to Green as chairman. He says “chief executive”. The “chairman” reference is the work of the hapless sub editor who put the headline on the piece, and is ultimately the responsibility of the Sports Editor who approved the headline before the page went to print.
Macpherson does refer to Green as “owner”, though, which is simply wishful thinking on behalf of what is clearly a Rangers fan who refuses to believe that his hero is just a frontman for spivs and chancers.
Truth is, sadly, that The Herald is now just a broadsheet version of the Evening Times.
dl2068 says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 20:36
Green’s consortium own Ibrox and Murray Park ( seen by SFA and RFFF.
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When the term “TRFC” is replaced by the term “Greens Consortium” it can only mean one thing
Greens Consortium and TRFC are two different legal entities
ie
Sevco Scotland have a have a debt of some description to a separate legal entity for the use of Ibrox or MP
Either
a rent
perhaps zero for an initial period
Or
interest on a purchase price
perhaps zero for an initial period
Both would enable Green to claim TRFC were debt free on the date he said they were debt free
I have mentioned this on here before and, if you follow me on twitter you’ll be aware of what this post will pertain to.
I’ve been writing a book entitled “The Death of Scottish Football”. The problem being that I finished it and it simply isn’t long enough for me to feel comfortable demanding people pay to read it.
Not that it’s not long. it’s just under 33k words, making it longer even than your average BRTH epic. Hence I came to decision that it’s going up online for free. Today.
The prelude post is available at http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/33150788610/the-death-of-scottish-football-prelude and the rest will be going up a little later so I can split it into parts.
The greatest hit for my blog ever is 1800 views for one post. With everyone’s help, I hope to smash that as, in my own extremely biased, just wrote a massive thing opinion, it’s something that deserves to get out there to everyone interested in Scottish football. And I know full well that the people on here, who have travelled from CQN, RTC, etc are the people most interested in ways to find wellbeing for our national game.
In terms of the naming issue of the subject of this particular post – History, they say, is written by the winners. This is only half true. Anyone who has been to the former Confederate States of America know full well that history there is written by the romanticism of failure. The great generals and the great sacrifices that happened 150 years ago (for example, at the Battle of Perryfield, 150 years ago today, one of the great turning points of the American Civil War) are still venerated in those parts. Old Walter is the Robert E Lee of Govan and Rangers are the Confederacy – people know the association with the tainted past yet still romanticise about the great days. We may have planted the Stars and Stripes on the marble staircase at Ibrox, but the Stars and Bars still live on in the hearts of Bears and that is something no-one can ever take away from them
I’ve noticed, with some disappointment, an argument going on regarding the Mark Guidi comment on Radio Clyde. I’ve no wish to enter the argument but feel compelled to defend Observer, though not to say anyone else is wrong.
I didn’t hear the original broadcast when it was aired on Radio Clyde, but noticed the comments on here shortly after. Some were saying he did say ‘hope’, some were saying he didn’t and some were saying it was unclear. The debate went on for a while until someone said they’d listened to the podcast earlier and it had clearly said ‘hope’ but when they listened to the podcast again some time later it was less clear. Later, someone posted a link to the original podcast and I clicked on it and clearly heard someone, I wouldn’t recognise Mark Guidi’s voice, say ‘I hope it kicks off’.
I cannot say that the clip I heard was not ‘doctored’, I don’t know if this is possible or not by someone from outwith the studio, but if it is the clip Observer is basing his argument on, then he definitely heard Guidi say ‘hope’.
I’m not wanting to prolong the argument, I hope the guys can patch it up and shake hands, I just want to point out that there are two versions out there (or there was) of the podcast and it’s up to everyone to decide for themselves which one is the doctored one!
droid says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 20:38
paulmac2 says:
history will demonstrate how Dr John Reid and Mr Peter Lawell publicly held documents and promised to publish them if proper reform did not take place.
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Intrigued …can you expand on this please?
Today’s Scottish Sun, no direct quote but Derek McGregor writes: “ALLY McCOIST is poised to punish the flops who shamed Rangers with defeat at Stirling — by dumping them in the RESERVES tonight.”
SHAMED Rangers with defeat at Stirling? Hardly respectful to the opposition. And here was me thinking The Tribute Act were aiming to make friends.
Stirling Albion 1 – Zombies FC 0
Am i the only one to be dissapointed by all the negative press after the game
at Forthbank on saturday. ? I cannot find too many reports that actually praise
the efforts of the ” Sons of Rock ” for that historical result against these overpaid
newcomers to the 4th tier of Scottish football.
.
Well done the Albion and congratulations to the new Mr & Mrs Greig McDonald.
.
Binos on Toast all round.
I was reading a post on here earlier, someone was talking about certain assets being moved to Greens Sevco Scotland company. So does that mean there is more than 1 company that actually owns The Tribute Act? Is this normal in football if that is the case? If more than one company owns The Tribute Act and the “Club” is an entirely independent entity according to Green, what would a share be buying into? Which company?
Richard, looking forward to reading your book, though it might take me some time to finish it as I am limited in my available time online. I’ll let you know if I disagree with anything you say, and also anything I am strongly in accord with. I hope you get the response such an effort deserves. 🙂
“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”
inappropriate in that I’m not sure theres anything sweet smelling about any of the incarnations of the club but the meaning of it applies.
the name is by far the least important of the issues at hand.
i’m neither surprised or disappointed by the press reaction to Saturday’s result. One of the joys of ceasing to care what the MSM write or broadcast is that you can’t be upset by it.
Nitpicking point – but isn’t Dumbarton the ‘Sons of the Rock’ in Scottish Football folklore?
ordinaryfan says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 11:27
I was reading a post on here earlier, someone was talking about certain assets being moved to Greens Sevco Scotland company. So does that mean there is more than 1 company that actually owns The Tribute Act? Is this normal in football if that is the case? If more than one company owns The Tribute Act and the “Club” is an entirely independent entity according to Green, what would a share be buying into? Which company?
—————————————————————————————————————————-
Post was probably mine,Ordinaryfan.
Just speculation using info we know.
CG buys the assets from D&D using Sevco5088,registered in England.
Then moves “certain assets”(I’m speculating the players,staff,etc) to Sevco Scotland,leaving the properties with Sevco5088.
He could now rent Ibrox to Sevco Scotland for whatever he likes,using the ST money as security.
I’d assume that this would be perfectly legal provided the players are properly registers,IE the company that holds their contracts pays their wages.
If,as reported,Ticketus are backing Green(not proven,though) they can recoup their cash through Sevco Scotland knowing that if it all goes belly-up,sevco5088 can sell the assets.they,in effect own both.
Just speculation though.
There was a rumour that CW was given a FC over Murray Park as his cut.I bon’t know if that’s true or how it would work though.
If anyone wants to shoot down my theory,please feel free.
Nitpicking point – but isn’t Dumbarton the ‘Sons of the Rock’ in Scottish Football folklore?
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
You are correct. 😉
“properly registered”
johnboy5088 says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 10:14
wottpi,
Macpherson does refer to Green as “owner”, though, which is simply wishful thinking on behalf of what is clearly a Rangers fan who refuses to believe that his hero is just a frontman for spivs and chancers.
…………………………………………………………………………………..
FWIW, I am pretty sure that MacPherson is not just a Buddie but a Saints fan.
Thanks Torrejohnbhoy.
Naming of the rose got me pondering about CO who should have been looking after his roses in the summer months (maybe he is at present doing just that) I would hedge my bets on that.. If he couldnae dae his joab over the past 6 months, can any one from Rangers IASTBL or Hearts verify that he ever fulfilled his role in the past.
Why is this man still in the corridors of power in our national game? Maybe that is a question Mr Green may be able to answer.
“Rangers chief executive Charles Green has given team manager Ally McCoist his “100% support”, despite the “unacceptable” loss on Saturday to Stirling Albion. (The Sun)”
Dreaded vote of confidence etc. 🙂
Allyjambo 8 oct at 10.58am
I have no wish to prolong this and I would hope Observer is now of the same opinion. Re the recording having been doctored, interesting thought but the only one I got to listen to was the one provided by Observer, hence my stance.
Re your post on 7 Oct at 14.10 I have a similar story involving pat stanton. I took my nephew, my son who are both celtic daft along with a mate who is a hibbee to some corporate entertaining for a Hibs V Celtic match last season. Sat at the table next to us was Pat Stanton and when I spoke to him I had to then explain to my son and nephew that he previously played with celtic and had been a great player for both clubs. My old mate of course (long retired) who is a former sports journalist with the Herald and worked in TV sports programme production knew instantly who he was. We are obviosly showing our age and old celtic players to them would be the ones who played in the late 90’s and early noughties
In follow up to my earlier post – here is “The Death of Scottish Football”
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/33152452626/the-death-of-scottish-football-complete
Unsurprisingly, considering that it’s nearly 33k words long, I have split it into parts as well, with all the links in the post linked above. I hope that you all enjoy it and are interested by what it contains. Please share it around as much as you can: the more it gets out there, the more people we get interested in and thinking about what is best for the overall well being of Scottish football.
1.ordinaryfan says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 11:27
I was reading a post on here earlier, someone was talking about certain assets being moved to Greens Sevco Scotland company. So does that mean there is more than 1 company that actually owns The Tribute Act? Is this normal in football if that is the case? If more than one company owns The Tribute Act and the “Club” is an entirely independent entity according to Green, what would a share be buying into? Which company?
,,,,,,,,,,,,
ordinaryfan
With many ex RFC fans swallowing everything Green says I reckon there are 3 options under consideration
1 Selling shares in TRFC which would be the normal way to raise capital.This would require a stock market listing and compliance with all the normal stock market rules and disclosures
2 Selling “shares” in the ethereal “brand” or “club” called TRFC( not sure if this is legal but no doubt Green does). This would confer a paper certificate that cannot be traded on any market. It would effectively be a donation to the Green consortium
3 Advance purchase of next seasons STs at a price which would be significantly higher than warranted perhaps at SPL prices with no commitment to spend the funds on buying players. This would also be a donation to the Green consortium. however this option requires a much higher level of performance on the park that TRFC have delivered to date
bect67
.
The Rock that i refer to in Stirling is the one that the best looking castle in Scotland
stands upon. My Father grew up in the Raploch estate in Stirling in the shadow of
the castle & he always called himself ” A Son of the Rock ”
No offence intended to our friends elswhere who claim the title.
Lets look at some facts
Rangers FC never lost to Stirling Albion or drew at Annan Athletic or needed last minute equalisers at Peterhead nor indeed played in any other division than the top flight of Scottish football for their entire existance.
Some/most Rangers fans want to conflate Rangers Football Club with Charles Green’s The Rangers Football Club but perhaps they would be better admitting that their club did die and preserve their memories, chievements and dignity that their club didn’t lose or draw or scrape results with the bottom feeding minnows of Scottish fitba like Green & McCoist’s The Rangers are doing on a weekly basis.
For those that believe in Karma then results like Saturdays are simply the natural consequences of the actions of Murray, McClelland, Bain, Ogilvie, Whyte, G.Smith etc.
Rangers / The Rangers are suffering such humiliations because of these men’s actions, inactions and decisions made.
John Clarke Says
Thanks JC ,Etna is very quiet ,thankfully,but it sounds like there are likely to be big eruptions from Govan way,question[s] for Charles.
On your recent fund raisng tour of North America,did no one actualy give you a check for the cause ,this would be very unusual in any fund raising tour as there is normaly one keen punter that donates ,and if there was this one [at least] who did they make the cheque out to and where was it banked .
Was there any cash donations also.
Brenda are you still taking deep breaths
yourhavingalaugh @ 13:01
I’m perfectly calm now 🙂 thank you, just watching and waiting!!!
goosygoosy says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 12:33
2 Selling “shares” in the ethereal “brand” or “club” called TRFC( not sure if this is legal but no doubt Green does). This would confer a paper certificate that cannot be traded on any market. It would effectively be a donation to the Green consortium
——
It would seem that this is the most likely scenario. I’m quite sure Mr Charles will easily manage to keep it all legal and above board via the wording of the offer, although if I was a potential donator I’d be reading the small print VERY closely indeed. If there is any.
I should imagine that any certificates issued would prominently feature the RFC logo, and not mention any company names at all. After all, the “Club” is apparently an ethereal entity, so buying a “share” of it – rather than a share of any “holding company” – is kind of like buying a “bottle of Scottish air” off eBay. What you’d be paying for would be effectively Mr Charles’s autograph at the bottom. He may even throw in a discount on the next season ticket (if you buy it at the same time!). 🙂
Having said that, perhaps there are TRFC fans who would cough a few quid simply to maintain the illusion for a while longer.
goosygoosy says:
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 12:33
ordinaryfan
With many ex RFC fans swallowing everything Green says I reckon there are 3 options under consideration
1 Selling shares in TRFC which would be the normal way to raise capital.This would require a stock market listing and compliance with all the normal stock market rules and disclosures
2 Selling “shares” in the ethereal “brand” or “club” called TRFC( not sure if this is legal but no doubt Green does). This would confer a paper certificate that cannot be traded on any market. It would effectively be a donation to the Green consortium
3 Advance purchase of next seasons STs at a price which would be significantly higher than warranted perhaps at SPL prices with no commitment to spend the funds on buying players. This would also be a donation to the Green consortium. however this option requires a much higher level of performance on the park that TRFC have delivered to date
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Goosy – Thanks for that.
Is the sale of debentures a fourth route? Would this require a share certificate type scheme or is it just another form of donations to the Green consortium?
I’m sure Roddy is keen to know 🙂