Of Assets and Liabilities

Bystevensanph

Of Assets and Liabilities

Much has been written on this blog, and previously on RangersTaxCase.com regarding the assets and liabilities of the former Rangers football club – however little has been done to look at the rest of the SPL and Scottish Football as a whole.  Was it just Rangers making ridiculous ‘asset’ valuations or is there other clubs in real danger of following RFC to the grave?

Before we get started a quick explanation on the figures.  They were all taken from the latest accounts as appearing on Duedil.com, so some are from 2010’s figures.  I have also ‘tidied’ them up a little so that they are easily understandable, removing things such as minor stock holdings.

The big story in the Rangers case was how over valued their ‘assets’ were, and especially the freehold property.  To remind you Rangers Balance sheet in 2010 was as below:

While on paper the net assets look very healthy, we all now know that the 130m of Fixed assets was in fact worth just 5.5m in the real world.  If we change that 130m to the real life figure their balance sheet would have looked like this…

So, how do the rest of the SPL compare?  This is a list of ‘fixed assets’ for each club as noted in their last accounts.

Predictably, Celtic lead the way, but a quick scout through the notes reveals the freehold properties are valued at 45m.  Dundee prop up the table, but with no freehold properties to their name, this is not so surprising.   One thing to note is the difference in value of the assets held by Aberdeen and Kilmarnock compared to clubs like Dundee Utd and St.Johnstone – this is important when we look at their balance sheets.

As you can see above, I have broken the balance sheet down into a few categories.  We have the fixed assets we just discussed, followed by the cash in bank.  Next is the debtors (money owed to the club within the next year) and then the creditors (money the club owes to others within the next year).  A crude calculation gives us the Net Current assets or liabilities.  A red number means that club owes more money in the next 12 months than they have in the bank, or are owed.

We then move on to long term creditors (money that is owed but not immediately – more than 1 year away) which will constitute loans from banks, or from shareholders.  In the case of Hearts, who have the highest amount of long term debt in the SPL, 98% of this debt is owed to the parent company UAB, controlled by Romanov.  This debt attracts a further 4.5% interest a year, while UAB also hold a floating charge over the clubs assets.

The final column gives us the Net assets or liabilities, taking into account the fixed assets of the company.  As we saw earlier, Rangers had posted Net assets of 70m, only achieved by their ridiculous freehold property valuation.  Are Hearts and Aberdeen doing the same?  In the case of Hearts they include in their fixed assets 159,000 worth of ‘Memorabilia’…  in addition to 15m of freehold property, while Aberdeen state in their accounts that the valuation of Pittodrie is a ‘rebuild’ value rather than a likely realistic sale price.

By declaring such high values on their balance sheets though, it produces a net asset figure, rather than a large liability that, in reality, is the case.  Kilmarnock and Hibs to a lesser extent would also see their figures turn red with asset valuations downgraded.

What is heartening to see though, is two clubs with net current assets, in St.Johnstone and Motherwell.  Saints were rescued from near bankruptcy in the 80’s by Geoff Brown and have lived within their means ever since.  Motherwell likewise have been in financial trouble in recent times, but the club appears to have stabilized and is now living within their means on and off the park.

If another insolvency event hits an SPL club, the MSM will blame it on the demise of Rangers.  What can be clearly seen here though is the damage was done years ago to clubs like Hearts, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen – it will be a battle to get back to the kind of financial position that clubs such as St.Johnstone currently enjoy.  However, the message that Saints are currently sending out is that its possible to have a competitive team without breaking the bank, as long as others aren’t artificially inflating wage demands.

The accounts I used to get the above figures are downloadable here:  I was unable to find for Inverness – if anyone can find please let me know and I can add them to the table.  When time permits I will extend this to include SFL clubs as well.

Aberdeen Celtic  | Dundee Utd | Hearts  | Hibs | Kilmarnock | Ross County | St.Mirren | St.Johnstone

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1,119 Comments so far

mrgreenwhytebrownPosted on11:38 pm - Nov 3, 2012


twopanda says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 22:15

But the Bears don’t care!!! (to understand). No logical argument will ever find a logical ear!! They won’t stop!! They will, however, self destruct!! So worry ye not and sleep till FTT!!

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essexbeancounterPosted on11:42 pm - Nov 3, 2012


john clarke says:

Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 22:34

Sad, that, because there used to be a team here that ran up and down sand dunes. Wonder what happened to them?
=========================================================================

JC…pure dead wicked…!

I remember a Bud Neil cartoon from that era, wherein one of those players was seen to say, on his return from the “Gullane Dunes” to the Albion training ground…”…hey boss, whit is this spikey green stuff…?”

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essexbeancounterPosted on11:55 pm - Nov 3, 2012


john clarke says:

Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 22:42

timtim says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 22:09
‘.As for the US bringing home the futility and immorality of discrimination on any basis
I dont think I’ll even go there , I’ll just say I disagree.’
—–
There was a superb wee programme on radio 4 earlier today, about the 100,000 African American GIs in ( mostly) England and N’orn Ireland) during the 2nd World War.

One 90-year-old GI interviewee summed it up, in saying that they came across to Europe to fight the Germans, but had to fight the Yanks first.
=======================================================================
JC…I think this blog must adopt a new name to address you…!

Is there no area of knowledge, artificial or otherwise, upon which you are unable to draw?

I used to defer to you as the “Scribe of the Blog” in RTC days…now I can only wonder…”…if only I could think like John Clark(e), things would be so much clearer, if not simpler…!”

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john clarkePosted on12:19 am - Nov 4, 2012


twopanda says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 22:15
—-
I may be misreading you entirely,twopanda, but from what you say, I infer that you think that the original conspiracy ( speaking entirely fictionally, of course, about a wholly imaginary situation that has no parallel in real life) involved the SFA Board away back last year..

That is, that the guy who wanted out from under the massive debts concocted a plan with very influential people on the SFA board, and with CW ,

a) to get shot of the debts by going into administration

b) to ensure that certain Administrators were appointed to run the administration process in such way that any CVA proposal would not be accepted, thus allowing a party to the conspiracy to pick up the assets ( including all the admin staff at Ibrox and elsewhere AND the playing staff,at fire-sale prices), then liquidate to make absolutely sure that the new owner would escape the taxman because the club was a brand new club entirely,

BUT in the confident expectation that , thanks to their fellow conspirators in the SFA, they would have a football club playing in the SPL, debt free, history intact and so on,

because they had been previously assured by people on the SFA board that that could be arranged.

Is that your theory?

Could be you’re right.

But. while I don’t doubt that certain members of the SFA board would have been ready to support a conspiracy of that kind, I do doubt that the majority, including Regan, would have been party to it, even if they had been approached.

That there was indeed a conspiracy from the outset, I’m certain.

But, I think, the ‘complicity’ of Regan and the general SFA board in the ‘conspiracy’ only began AFTER the deed, when they were leaned on, and in something of a panic, to try to find a legitimate way to keep the dead club in the SPL or at least get them into the SFL first division, or in desperation, into the third!

The criticism I have of the SFA board is not that they were part of any conspiracy in partnership with SDM or CW or CO before ‘Administration’ day.

No, it’s simply that they did not deal with a failed club under the rules which they had ,not all that long before, applied to other clubs.

And, worse, that they themselves actually broke the rules by an unjustified use, for unacceptable reasons ,of a supposed discretionary power.

That was a shabby piece of work.

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Palacio67Posted on12:25 am - Nov 4, 2012


Update on todays earlier poll

5 miss the Glasgow derby Fixture
156 Do not.

Quite a gap!

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m8dreamerPosted on12:40 am - Nov 4, 2012


M8Dreamer

While most SPL clubs will see a reduction of income this year from the demise of Rangers FC, this is more than compensated by the return of Dundee to the SPL and SPL Clubs not being subjected to Rangers supporters singing “folk songs” and behaving generally like neandertalls from the 20th century.
Football supporters can now follow their team with enjoyment, without being subjected to the unacceptable behaviour of the 99% minority of Rangers supporters when they visit other football grounds.
This is a small price to pay for having a Rangers free SPL.

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john clarkePosted on12:41 am - Nov 4, 2012


essexbeancounter says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 23:55
‘..I remember a Bud Neil cartoon from that era, ..’

Now you’ve done it, Ebc.

Waves of nostalgia piling in over my head.

Oh! Rank Bajin! Oh! Fairy Nuff,! Oh!The Auchenshuggle caur! And , especially, Oh! dear, dear Elfie, my long-suffering, faithful steed!

Gone,alas,all gone!

Like the football club that said Rank Bajin (allegedly) was partial to.

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Martin Hutchison (@Squire_67)Posted on12:53 am - Nov 4, 2012


twopanda says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 22:15

Anyone up for some wild preposterous piece of conspiratorial nonsense to pass a quiet Saturday?

____________________________________________________________________________

Really enjoyed that one TP, cheers.

I know it’s a ‘conspiratorial nonsense’ piece, but answer me this…

Knowing that the license transfer could be challenged in court, is it likely to be?

Not holding breath.

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blantyreexilePosted on1:35 am - Nov 4, 2012


Interesting listening to the Radio Clyde SSB programme posted by Agrajag a page back where Phil Mac Giolla Bhain makes an appearence talking about the BTC. I don’t know when this was first broadcast but I would imagine it must have been at least 18 month ago. About 2 minutes in Phil claims that this will ‘finally…finally play our between October and November 2012’. The interesting bit for me is that for about the past 12 months I have read, in various places, that the result of the BTC would be a announced, well anytime between January 2012 and now!

So even 18 month ago there was someone suggesting that the BTC wouldn’t be announced until late 2012. I wonder why, therefore, we are surprised that it has taken this long?

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Danish PastryPosted on6:26 am - Nov 4, 2012


Palacio67 says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 00:25
6 0 Rate This
Update on todays earlier poll

5 miss the Glasgow derby Fixture
156 Do not.

Quite a gap!
———-

Oops, make that 4/157, I pressed TU by mistake.

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Danish PastryPosted on6:32 am - Nov 4, 2012


Flocculent Apoidea says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 20:28
8 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 20:08

Bravo, nice one. Flocculent, are you old enough to remember Dick State?

_______________________________________

Afraid not, DP. I note from P&B that you fondly remember him, though ….
————

Well spotted. I’ve no idea if he was a miserable teacher as tomahawkid says. But it would take more than a footballer to ruin Keats 🙂

He was a hero for some though. He’s referenced here by ‘Texas Clyde’: http://www.clyde-exiles.com/members.html

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Long Time LurkerPosted on6:52 am - Nov 4, 2012


blantyreexile says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 01:35

I think that in his radio piece Phil had assumed that the outcome of the FTTT would go to appeal by one of the parties and ultimately the whole process would have concluded by Oct/Nov 2012.

That aside its still quite a piece of investigative journalism.

I was interested to read on Phil’s book Downfall, that SSB have not inited Phil back to speak on the show and that they continue to decline his calls when he tries to get onto the show.

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ExiledCeltPosted on6:58 am - Nov 4, 2012


finloch says:

Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 14:19

There were many great posts on RTC but the one that made the biggest impact on me was this ..
…………………………………………………….
corsica says:
20/07/2012 at 11:07 pm

Well that’s that, I have now officially retired and all thanks to this blog! Right, enough moping…

Wee question for you all: what do Charles Green, Craig Whyte, Dave King and Andrew Ellis all have in common? That’s right they all own property and have investments in the Republic of South Africa. What a coincidence, eh?

What’s that I hear? You would like another coincidence? Well, okay, how about they have all at various times threatened to sue each other and other players in this farce but curiously not a single writ has been delivered. Ask your uncle Max (Clifford) about that little deflection trick…

Another coincidence? How about they were all in Switzerland this week?

As my grandson’s favourite comedian would say “what are the chances of that?”
……………………………………………………

I look forward to hearing more of Craig’s recordings because having invested in the technology why would he not use it on his wee trip to Switzerland.

*********************

I have posted before that in my view the role of Dave King is going to be pivotal in connecting the dots. He is the connection between the old and the new – he was the only one person that put in recently a bunch of money into the old regime. King joined Rangers Board of Director’s as a non-executive director on 30 March 2000.- according to wiki he then invested £20 million of his own fortune into the club.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_King_(businessman)

He was the only director from the old regime still on the board when it went under. He was also getting he says financial reports from CW

On Feb 22, he arrives in Glasgow….

*****
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9099276/Rangers-director-Dave-King-makes-Ibrox-visit-as-Ally-McCoist-talks-to-administrators.html

South Africa-based King, the only survivor from the Sir David Murray era on the board, left Ibrox in the same car as McCoist this afternoon.

King has previously admitted he considered launching his own takeover bid before Murray sold his shares to Craig Whyte for £1. He was put off by the demands of Lloyds Banking Group.

The Glasgow-born businessman was also linked with another potential bid from director Paul Murray, who quickly expressed interest in forming a takeover consortium after Rangers went into administration on Valentine’s Day.

King, who has been involved in a long-running dispute with the South African tax authorities, was reported to be on the verge of being removed from his position just before the club appointed administrators. However, he remains on the board as a non-executive director.

Here on March 7th, DK states liquidation is probable and declares he will sue SDM

Interestingly he states

I intend to remain involved with the club, at least on my present basis, post-reconstruction if that is at all possible under the new ownership structure

And also that he has spken to SFA about being a fit and proper person which the SFA acknowledged.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17283440

He then urged on June 8th for Rangers fans (not creditors!) to reject the CVA – to which CG famously said this would ensure Rangers history would be lost

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2156231/Dave-King-urges-Rangers-fans-reject-Charles-Greens-proposals-CVA.html

The most telling one may be this one – when he flew in June 18

Mr King’s ability to get involved in any investment in the newco Rangers is limited by the fact that Sars took out a restraint order against him, preventing him from dealing in “realisable property”. The Crown Office has previously confirmed the order is also in effect in Scotland.

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/106688-rangers-crisis-dave-king-flies-into-glasgow-to-hold-talks-over-newco-club/

The next day he has the following to say about CG

“It’s going to be impossible for Rangers to run on two different business models,” he continued.

“If you’ve got some investors coming in who want to subsidise the club for a number of years and you have others who want to make money out of it, they are inconsistent.

“One of them must just get on with it.

“Charles has a commercial plan and he’s outlined what he thinks he can do. I think some of that is ambitious.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18510128

On 20th May, Dave King was again in the news claiming he had first dibs on CW’s shares and the reasons he was still director…

King claims to have come to an agreement with Whyte in Glasgow on 29 September last year and, when told of Whyte’s denial, he added: “It was verbally agreed over lunch but is legally valid.

“It suited him at the time and I will hold him to it.

“I have first option on [his] shares and would not forgo this unless I was absolutely certain that any proposed transaction, that excluded me, was in the best interests of the club,” he added.

“I have yet to see such a proposal.”

King, who is Rangers’ second largest shareholder, continued: “I stayed on because I also had my investment and those of the other minority shareholders to protect and I believe that my presence on the board prevented Whyte from getting away with more than he even did.

“The ultimate problem was that he knowingly lied to me and blocked my ability to validate some of his contentions with the club’s financial controller.

“I believed that the financial controller had a fiduciary obligation to supply me with information even though it transpired that Whyte had told him not to.

“I was also alert to the fact that Whyte would run out of time and felt that it was better that at least one independent director would be there to protect the interests of the minority shareholders and the fans.

“If I had resigned Whyte would have had carte blanche. The minorities, in my firm view, were defrauded in the initial transaction by Whyte and I intend to seek recourse in that regard once I have access to the Duff & Phelps investigation of the company’s affairs.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18137913

Now questions on a quick fire round….

(1) Who was the only director to be in both camps – SDM and CW?
(2) Who seems to have copious amounts of money that no one really can trace that he likes to invest?
(3) Who may have had the funds to give to Ticketus last year in March when a sudden investment of 20 million was made?
(4) Who was always flying in to Ibrox to smooth things over after admin, pre CVA and post CVA?
(5) Who is the only person that has threatened to sue SDM but has not and at the same time threatened to sue CW but hasn’t?
(6) Who is the only person meeting in Switzerland that is the connection to SDM?

Why iS DK asking SFA in March if he can be involved in New Co? SFA agreed the inquiry was made…..

Instead of asking if CW is still involved, should we be asking if Dave King is involved as an investor in CG?

I may be wrong but something is shady here with Dave King…………..Corisca evidently thought so too…………..

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ExiledCeltPosted on7:06 am - Nov 4, 2012


And on EBTs, who is the only person to say sorry……….

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2161850/Rangers-crisis-Dave-King-apologises.html

I think we should be sorry – and I certainly am sorry,’ King told Sportsmail. ‘We owe both the Rangers fans and the Scottish footballing public an apology.

‘Some of the representations made have betrayed more of a victim status. But I think somebody needs to apologise.

‘Clearly, that is not for Charles Green to do. But I am happy to say that I really believe we should be saying sorry and I think there is something to be sorry about.

‘And as a former director when these things were going on, I am minded to do so.

‘With regard to EBTs, I was on the board so I have to take some responsibility.

‘And I follow the logic of the argument that if we lose the tax case then we probably gained some competitive advantage.

‘I believe that, on behalf of myself and most of the board members who were with me and probably agree with me, that we should apologise for that.

‘I know that the Murray Group might not say that, because it might be tantamount to admitting it.

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Long Time LurkerPosted on7:22 am - Nov 4, 2012


Did anyone else notice Jim Traynor deflecting the line of argument made by Stewart Cosgrove yesterday on Your Call, towards the end of the show?

Stewart introduced the latest tax investigation concerning Richard Hughes of Zeus Capital as reported in the Times on Friday (although he did not name M Hughes, noting that the taxation issue affected a significant shareholder in the Club.)

Jim attempted to downplay the potential seriousness of that tax investigation, apologies for paraphrasing his [Traynor’s] argument was: most people have problems with the tax man who then goes onto pull people up for those errors, ergo it is likely that this tax matter is not serious.

I could accept that as an argument if Jim was not aware of the issue as reported in the Times. However, given that Charles Green was referred to in the article as were other matters on Rangers, I think that it is unlikely that (a) Jim was not aware of the article in the Times and (b) in any event, if there was/is background chatter on that story before publication it is more likely than not that Mr Traynor would have been aware of the investigation into Richard Hughes, and importantly the nature of that investigation.

Where Jim is aware of the investigation, then his rebuttal of Stewart’s comments on a public broadcast are difficult to defend. The tax investigation in question is a criminal inquiry, where an attempt to defraud the exchequer is being alleged. Such criminal investigations are at the opposite end of the spectrum, when compared to the every day errors made in a tax return to HMRC, which Jim offered as a rebuttal.

Criminal taxation matters it could be argued have no place within Your Call. However, the issue is who owns the Club and are they fit and proper persons to do so. Jim cannot argue that that is not a matter worthy of discussion, given the MSM’s probity of Craig Whyte as to whether he was/is fit and proper to hold office in Scottish football.

Stewart, if you are looking in – could you raise the above with Mr Traynor?

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doontheslopePosted on7:31 am - Nov 4, 2012


JC

I hope you had a ‘pleasant’ night of ‘making up.’

I respect your views on what has been going on down Ibrox way, but I would also listen to the views of Turnbull Hutton, a man who stands head and shoulders over many in Scottish football today.

With reference to Scottish football authorities, Mr Hutton was quite candid in his appraisal of them:

“THEY ARE CORRUPT.”

They themselves didn’t counter that position because…. it was true.

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Long Time LurkerPosted on7:35 am - Nov 4, 2012


Long Time Lurker says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 07:22

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nph0w

Apologies, just downloaded the Your Call episode from yesterday. At 56 mins 28 seconds Jim Traynor does mention by name Richard Hughes, thus he must be aware that Stewart Cosgrove was talking about a criminal tax investigation effecting a majority shareholder in Rangers.

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torrejohnbhoyPosted on7:56 am - Nov 4, 2012


Morning all.
I see there was just over 25k at ibrox yesterday.to be fair,that’s not a bad crowd for a game against Alloa.If recent “world record” attendances are correct then around 20k walked away yesterday.
Say an average of £12 yesterday,allowing for concessions,total income is circa £300k.
Deduct VAT and match costs totalling say £100k then split the balance between the 2 sides.
£100k to Alloa probably makes their season.
To TRFC however,it hardly makes a dent in their running costs.They’ve played 2 home cup ties this week and will be lucky to have made £250k
November is the last month for ST payments so from next month the bulk of income will come from gate receipts.Even allowing for crowds of 45k,that’s only 8k paying around £100k per game.If you average 2 home games per month thats £200k less VAT and expenses.income then probably in the region of £100k per month.If you believe Charlies figure for players wages only of £6m per annum(and I don’t)then from December to May there’s a shortfall of approximately £2.4m.this does not include other staff wages,coaching staff,rates,utilities etc.Unless Charlie and the boys are willing to subsidise TRFC then I don’t see how they can survive.
Willing to be corrected though.

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doontheslopePosted on8:20 am - Nov 4, 2012


Torrejohnbhoy

I hope Alloa do get a big pay day. A few years back, they drew Rangers in the Scottish Cup at Ibrox. They got walloped 6-0 but they built a new Stand from the money they received.

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Famous songPosted on8:47 am - Nov 4, 2012


…sorry to spoil a good story, ‘slope, but we built the stand two years before the ’94 cup tie. As for £100k ‘making our season’, speaking entirely for myself, a draw in a properly contested Scottish Cup would have done me. As it was, we played the remains of the team whose adherence to the rules in the previous twelve competitions is, ahem, yet to be established. A team whose manager and chief executive make no bones of the fact that the rules, as far as they are concerned, don’t apply. And a team who, I’m pretty damn certain, didn’t mention their requirement for an emergency working capital injection, in their licence application. And, loath as I am to impugn the bona fides of a set of fine upstanding capitalists such as the Sevco board, it isn’t £100k until it’s in the bank. And the clock’s ticking.

Sour grapes? You betcha.

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FIFAPosted on8:55 am - Nov 4, 2012


Makes you wonder about the big crowds for the league games as we have heard of tickets for these games been given away in their thousands [alledgedly] but they cannot give them away for cup games as this would count in the split of gate receipts ,we should be told Charles.
League games =European record for attendances for a 4th tier club
Cup games = World record walking away attendances for a 4th tier club

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SeniorPosted on9:53 am - Nov 4, 2012


Doontheslope

THEY ARE CORRUPT.”

They themselves didn’t counter that position because…. it was true
___________________________________________________________

If anything demonstrates the corruptness of the SFA it is their refusal to challenge the above fact..

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neepheidPosted on10:00 am - Nov 4, 2012


john clarke says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 00:19

And, worse, that they themselves actually broke the rules by an unjustified use, for unacceptable reasons ,of a supposed discretionary power.

That was a shabby piece of work.
=========================================================
I agree that the transfer of the SFA membership was a shabby piece of work, not least because of the secrecy surrounding the final form of the five way agreement, but how can the exercise by the Board of a discretion enshrined in the rules be a breach of those rules?

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Robert CoylePosted on10:09 am - Nov 4, 2012


Fairly decent article from Tom English.

Tom English: ‘Despite times of austerity with drains on finances, supporters are coming out in greater numbers’

SFA chief executive Stewart Regan, who has delayed a decision on Craig Levein, predicted doom and gloom for the SPL without Rangers. Photograph: Craig Watson/SNS
By Tom English
Published on Sunday 4 November 2012 01:18

IF ONLY Stewart Regan was as decisive in his pronouncement on Craig Levein’s future as Scotland manager as he was in the summer when predicting Armageddon for the domestic game in the post-Rangers age.

Still we wait for news of Levein’s fate, a prevarication that is both needless and deeply unfair on the man in the middle of this malaise.

Whatever you think about Levein, he doesn’t deserve to be cast into this pitiful situation where some of the blazerati at Hampden fumble about in the dark apparently looking for more information when all the relevant information is staring them in the face. In terms of football administration this is the equivalent of 4-6-0 in Prague. Hesitant, afraid to commit, embarrassing.

On Tuesday, somebody is going to be naming a Scotland squad for the forthcoming friendly with Luxembourg and the fact that we won’t know – or more to the point, Levein won’t know – who that somebody is going to be until 24 hours beforehand is a joke to beat all jokes. Either back him and try to pull off a miracle in justifying such a decision, or sack him and move on.

Regan came up with one of the phrases of the summer but, if there’s a slow and lingering death going on right now, then it has more to do with the man charged with the task of taking the nation to the World Cup in Brazil in two years’ time rather than any financial catastrophe in the SPL, as Regan predicted.

These are tough times for the SFA’s chief executive. Those words of his – including a vision of social unrest in an apocalyptic SPL future if Rangers were not allowed back in – have not been forgotten and they’re not likely to be so long as his forecast proves so wide of the mark.

Nobody is saying that things are dandy in the SPL without Rangers, but Armageddon it most definitely is not. There is less money about, of course. Sky won’t be stumping up the same amount that they did when Rangers were around and clubs are going to feel the pinch as a consequence, no question.

But here’s the thing. In the summer there were forecasts of attendances falling away to half-nothing in the wake of Rangers’ demise, but they have not. Supporters at most clubs have actually rallied round. During the week, if you looked at the paltry crowds at some of the League Cup quarter-finals, you might have concluded that the prophets of doom were right all along but the League Cup has never been an accurate indication of supporter interest. Many see it as an expense too far in these troubling economic times. The SPL is the testing ground and, if you crunch the numbers, you find some pretty interesting things.

Compare the attendances of the ten clubs – excluding Ross County and Dundee who weren’t in the league last year – and seven of them are showing increased crowds, with only Celtic (down 7.46 per cent), St Mirren (down 6.7 per cent) and Hearts (down 15.5 per cent) showing a fall. And there are mitigating circumstances in two of those cases. Celtic fans now have the glamour, and the cost, of the Champions League to think about. It’s no surprise that some of their number are prioritising Barcelona, Moscow and Benfica over some of the domestic fare.

Hearts are down over 2,000 fans per game but you have to look at what is going on there, too. Last season, Hearts’ first six home games included matches against Hibs, Rangers, Celtic, Dundee United and Aberdeen. This season, their first six visitors to Tynecastle in the SPL have been St Johnstone, Inverness, Dundee, Kilmarnock, Motherwell and Ross County. Their bumper gates have yet to come.

Elsewhere, the numbers are good, albeit at a very early stage in the season. Club chairmen and chief executives asked their people to back them in the summer when Rangers exited the league and they have done. Hibs are up nearly 9 per cent, Aberdeen and Inverness are up more than 10 per cent, St Johnstone are up 14 per cent, Kilmarnock are up 16.6 per cent and Dundee United are up 22.6 per cent. Of course, some of these attendances are rising from an extremely low base but that’s not the point.

The point is that, despite living in a time of great austerity with so many drains on the family finances, supporters are coming out in greater numbers than they did last season. That is a hell of an achievement. Never mind that St Johnstone’s 14 per cent equates to just 565 more fans per game or that Inverness’s increase means that only another 404 punters are coming through the gate every second week. The point is not that they are rising in small digits but that they are rising at all.

This was supposed to be a slow and lingering death, remember?

Some figures jump out. In their Highland derby with Ross County, Inverness drew a crowd of 6,766, which was more than attended their first home fixture with Rangers last season.

In their Dundee derby, United got an attendance of 13,538, three thousand more than turned up for their home match with Rangers at the beginning of last season.

This is not to say that the league is thriving without Rangers but there is a certain energy about its early months.

Celtic have been outstanding in Europe, which makes them an even greater target for their challengers, some of whom have met that challenge brilliantly.

St Johnstone have beaten them in Perth. Hibs came from behind twice to get a draw in Glasgow.

Last weekend, Kilmarnock beat them at Celtic Park for the first time in 57 years.

The battle for second place in the SPL is real and it is interesting and any one of four or five clubs could grab it. More clubs feel that they have more to play for. More fans, too.

Given the SFA’s feeble uncertainty on the Levein situation you have to wonder if anybody at Hampden really knows what a slow and lingering death actually looks like.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/tom-english-despite-times-of-austerity-with-drains-on-finances-supporters-are-coming-out-in-greater-numbers-1-2613685

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scottyjimboPosted on10:16 am - Nov 4, 2012


exiledcelt says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 06:58

Well reminded. You could have also added,

Who received R200m (circa £17.5 million) “income” from Rangers Football Club according to an overseas tax enquiry, years 1990 – 2001? Especially considering this person was just “appointed a director of Rangers Football Club in March 2000 (Wikipedia)” . All undoubtedly legal and above board.

http://www.bdlive.co.za/articles/2008/11/11/king-s-tax-assessment-valid—sars

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/dave-king-and-rangers-ebts-and-sars-guest-post-by-jim/

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albabhoyPosted on10:42 am - Nov 4, 2012


Scottyjimbo – that’s an interesting link. A South African paper suggesting that Dave King received R200m from Rangers..

What’s the chances of the Scottish media following that up!?

Can’t help but wonder if King is (one of) the investor behind the scenes. If he is, might that be why the identities of the those who bought Rangers continue to be kept secret?

View Comment

twopandaPosted on10:55 am - Nov 4, 2012


twopanda says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 22:15
Try 3 in one – apols if not clear
____________

mrgreenwhytebrown says:
Saturday, November 3, 2012 at 23:38
But the Bears don’t care!!! (to understand). No logical argument will ever find a logical ear!! They won’t stop!! They will, however, self-destruct!! So worry ye not and sleep till FTT!!
____

Yep – Know only too well reasoning is futile and where that`ll lead – Kinda becoming sympathetic to those on the inside who’ve had to deal with this. – On the FTT I`ll admit now if they can hold it up as long as they have – another 1-2-3-4 months? – Then I stop waiting – and not play to their rules.
________________________________________

john clarke says: at 00:19

The thing was definitely planned yes – you would expect so with so much money and reputations at stake. On the football side we are aware BM had some sort of talks with the SPL – so would assume the original plan was SPL – CL and so on. That SPL could even still have worked if the Scottish Supporters hadn`t almost unanimously protested so vigorously obliging the SPL Teams to vote against. If SPL was planned and happened the SFA status would remain unchanged so highly doubtful the SFA or SR or anyone on that side involved. Ironically if they had stayed in the SPL with a 20m+ wage bill – they would failed financially again I venture

So I completely agree with you JC that the SFA were not in at the beginning – maybe certain members would be sympathetic – but no more at that time

But AFTER as you say – the rules and indeed the sanctions were negotiated even played with to suit. We don`t know the `external pressure` they were under – and with the MSM baying – so sort of open minded a bit – but sticking to the rules and publically defend the statutes might have helped. But it degenerated to the 5-way thing – that again agree was a shabby underhand piece of work – indeed corrupt by all parties – but in end effect will work against those who exerted unguided pressure.

The main point – in admittedly a Saturday evening longish essay – was to look behind the conspiracy theories and establish as much reasoned interpretation as one can. This started with bees in bonnets that LH some involved to enable SFA transfer – and to be fair no-one was answering a straightforward honest question on that – and neepheid had asked several times without reply. I didn`t know myself how to answer at the beginning so looked into it with help to add to the story. NHs suspicion of corruption is correct – I just didn`t think it was LH and tried to point the way to help.
____________

Martin Hutchison (@Squire_67) says: at 00:53
Knowing that the license transfer could be challenged in court, is it likely to be? -Not holding breath.
_____

Cheers – I suppose they could regularise all this in future – probably not need a Court – but it to me doesn’t matter as after the main event – that being the SFA timeline is gone – there is no continuity of association – and they have no-one else to blame – not saying they won`t try though. The crazy thing is that this and other points were raised and discussed widely over on RTC and as mrgreenwhytebrown accurately notes is that they don`t care to understand, reason logically and will SD. That`s been true all the way so far and we don`t expect to change.

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bect67Posted on11:09 am - Nov 4, 2012


John Clarke says @ 00.41:-

Just catching up. Off topic but, out of respect, I think we should refer to Lobey Dosser’s faithful steed by his (?) full title –

El Fideldo

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Danish PastryPosted on12:16 pm - Nov 4, 2012


exiledcelt says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 07:06
20 1 Rate This

And on EBTs, who is the only person to say sorry……….

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2161850/Rangers-crisis-Dave-King-apologises.html
—————

Couple of very interesting posts there exiled. DK is a kind joker in pack and operates very much under the radar. Had never read his apology. No matter what his motives were for speaking out like that, it’s commendable.

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essexbeancounterPosted on12:31 pm - Nov 4, 2012


bect67 says:

Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 11:09

John Clarke says @ 00.41:-

Just catching up. Off topic but, out of respect, I think we should refer to Lobey Dosser’s faithful steed by his (?) full title –

El Fideldo
==========================================================================
Bect67…”Lobby Dosser” .this was a favourite expression of my late father’s…and I did not even know where it came from…many thanks for that.

JC…thanks for the “Rank Bajin” memory jogger…!

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TSFMPosted on12:47 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Statue of Lobey, Rank Badyin and El Fideldo in Woodlands Road
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lobey_Dosser_1.jpg

Some pics
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lobey+dosser&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1WOWUO_pKYLM0QWL3YHIDg&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=633

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Danish PastryPosted on12:55 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Edit: “DK is a kind of joker in the pack ….”

Subtle difference. I’ve no idea whether he’s kind or not 😉

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doontheslopePosted on12:56 pm - Nov 4, 2012


famousong

I am well aware of when the Stand at Alloa was built. I sat in it often enough watching my buddy, Keith McCulloch (known as “Solid” to the fans.) But when was it paid for? According to Keith, that cup tie at Ibrox paid for it. Although, in your argument’s favour, Keith wasn’t at Alloa because of his accountancy skills.

I agree with you totally though on the chances of Alloa getting paid this time.

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tomtomPosted on1:53 pm - Nov 4, 2012


I always thought the term “lobby dosser” referred to a person of no fixed abode like a tramp. Could be wrong though.

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bobferrisPosted on1:58 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Did East Fife, Falkirk and QoS get their cheques for their trips to Ibrox? Any of their supporters frequent this site? I bet Forres have sent their cheque to Ibrox.

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scapaflow14Posted on2:00 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Danish

That would be Sir Richard Staite, a genuine Knight of the Realm rather than a wannabe like Sir Walter d’EBT

http://www.midlothianadvertiser.co.uk/news/local-headlines/beeslack-headmaster-knighted-1-184975

I have it on good authority that his staff nicknamed him Dictatorial Staite 😉

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tomahawkidPosted on2:13 pm - Nov 4, 2012


That is indeed the gentleman. From his days at Currie high. That knighthood makes him a right royal prick now.

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andyPosted on2:52 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Charles Green yesterday
CG spoke for 40 minutes yesterday in Ibrox, here are some of of his comments.

1 – He met with Sky last week and refuses to sign up to the new sky deal which ends in two years !

2 – Rangers only receive approx 700k from TV money at present.

3 – All footballing debt have been paid apart from the 31k to Dundee Utd which he has a letter confirming would be paid by the SPL.

4 – They have agreed a fee of £1.3 million with Loyds for the purchase of the Albion carpark therefore canceling the lease which ran till 2025 at over 300k a year.

5 – The management team are currently looking at a list of players who will be out of contract next summer but would be availabe as free agents from Sept 1st 2013, CG plans to sign them up on a pre contract agreements next year.

6 – Rangers owed hearts the remainder of the Lee Wallace fee, Hearts were so desperate for the money eventually offering a 100k discount if we paid the cash two weeks ago.Thats why the couldn’t pay the wages.

7 – Projected turnover for this year is 20 million. Next year 40 million.

8 – Share issue prospectus to be made public in a 21 page document end of this coming week or just after.

9 – Over 20 pension fund groups have an intrest in the share issue.
Corporate roadshow to start this week re share issue Glasgow, Edinburgh
and then London for seven days.

10 – He once again stated that we have no debts and are cash rich at the
moment and expecting to make a 6 million profit from the retail arm now
JJB are out the way.

11 – Hinted at League reconstruction being masterminded by the SFL not the
SPL as he predicts the SPL will go bust without the Sky deal which he
refused to sign.

12 – Soon to be another bust up with SPL over Rangers tv broadcasts.
Doncaster says we need their permission which will undoubtably mean
money to those c***s.

13 – CG stated he thinks SFA will declare him not a fit and proper person to
be CEO of Rangers because of his constant war with them.

14 – CG insists there is a potential to make a 100% profit on shares for all
new share holders.

15 – SFA and SFL not interested in stripping of titles only the tarriers at the
SPL pushing for it. He will fight it all the way.

16 – He is considering taking legal action against the SPL and SFA over the
agreement to allow us a Liscense to continue playing football.
Decision was taken under duress he says at 9.30pm before Brechin
game
___________________

ROll up Roll up Roll up shares for sale double your money 🙂

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highlandjaggyPosted on3:01 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Just spoke to my accountant who is a staunch bluenose and I asked him if he was going to buy any sevco shares and his response was “are you insane”.

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scapaflow14Posted on3:02 pm - Nov 4, 2012


“13 – CG stated he thinks SFA will declare him not a fit and proper person to
be CEO of Rangers because of his constant war with them.”

No Mr Green, if they do it will because of tax issues. I think they call this getting your excuses in early!

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andyPosted on3:06 pm - Nov 4, 2012


scapaflow14 says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 15:02
0 0 Rate This
“13 – CG stated he thinks SFA will declare him not a fit and proper person to
be CEO of Rangers because of his constant war with them.”

No Mr Green, if they do it will because of tax issues. I think they call this getting your excuses in early!
________________
he will fool most of them with the early strike
he knows his audience well now

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61patrickPosted on3:07 pm - Nov 4, 2012


andy says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 14:52
Does 10 not contradict 6

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AgrajagPosted on3:14 pm - Nov 4, 2012


£6m profit from the retail arm is fantastic. I think Celtic only made £4.5m in the last accounts.

Increasing turnover from £20m to £40m in one season will however be absolutely staggering. I can’t begin to imagine how he will be able to do that. Maybe he expects to be playing in the CL group stages.

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campsiejoePosted on3:22 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Where on earth do you start with that steaming pile of bullshit
Just a few thoughts for now

20 Pension funds are interested in investing
Sorry Charlie, but I can’t see a single pension fund throwing cash in your direction, as they are by nature cautious about what they do with their client’s money, and I don’t think Sevco would be that attractive for them

£20 million t/o this year and £40 million next year
Are you asking everyone to believe that by possibly moving up one division, t/o will double
Historically, as far as I can remember, without Europe RFC(IL) barely managed a £40 million t/o in the SPL
And by the way, t/o means very little, but profit means a lot

Potential to make a 100% profit on shares
What is your next trick Charlie, turning water into wine

I could go on, but I’ve got work to do ahead of tomorrow, which is more important than dissecting a pile of nonsense from another Walter Mitty character

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ecobhoyPosted on3:25 pm - Nov 4, 2012


tomtomaswell says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 13:53

I always thought the term “lobby dosser” referred to a person of no fixed abode like a tramp. Could be wrong though.
——————————————————————————————————————

A ‘lobby dosser’ was someone who would sleep in the small hallways in the old Glasgow tenements which were mainly demolished in the early 1950s. The hallways got created when larger flats were spilt into single-ends and one bedroom apartments which was a way for landlords to increase rental.

Shared toilets were outside on the landings between floors and a lot of the ‘lobby dossers’ were also ‘jaikies’ who used the water out of the toilet bowls to dilute the methylated spirits that was the drink of choice. A lot of these guys were basically casualties of the 1930s Great Depression and WWII when little was done for returning soldiers whose brains had been fired by their experiences.

Ah, the good old days 🙂

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john clarkePosted on3:43 pm - Nov 4, 2012


tomtomaswell says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 13:53

No, you’re right.
The Glasgwegian pronunciation is as in the cartoon strip- ‘lobey’.
And a lobey-dosser was a general kind of city vagrant, chancer of a con-man who pitched his ‘tent’ where gullible folk let him,and was apt to drink your pint when you left it unattended at the bar. Street-wise, and plausible. Sometimes had the initials CG.

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whispererPosted on4:06 pm - Nov 4, 2012


could it be “spiv-speak” for … you stick 20M in for the shares … plus 10M for ST-12/13 … AND 10M for ST-13/14 (which the gullible shall pay in THIS financial year !!!) ……… and me an me spiv-chinas TURN YOU OVER for the 40M smackerooneees !!! …. maybees aye maybees naw ??

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andyPosted on4:20 pm - Nov 4, 2012


4 – They have agreed a fee of £1.3 million with Loyds for the purchase of the Albion carpark therefore canceling the lease which ran till 2025 at over 300k a year.
____________
doesnt sound right either 13 years at over 300k but sell it for 4 years worth

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andyPosted on4:24 pm - Nov 4, 2012


whisperer18 says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 16:06
0 0 Rate This
could it be “spiv-speak” for … you stick 20M in for the shares … plus 10M for ST-12/13 … AND 10M for ST-13/14 (which the gullible shall pay in THIS financial year !!!) ……… and me an me spiv-chinas TURN YOU OVER for the 40M smackerooneees !!! …. maybees aye maybees naw ??
_____________
and the next year the turnover goes from 40m to 5m 🙂

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AgrajagPosted on4:24 pm - Nov 4, 2012


campsiejoe says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 15:22

If they sell £20m worth of shares and that is roughly half of the club then the market capitalization would be about £40m.

If the shares double in value that would make it £80m.

The last time I looked Celtic’s was around £35m.

One is an SFL3 club, with no prospect of European income for 3-4 years. The other is an SPL club playing Barca in the CL group stages on Wednesday.

Guess which is which.

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killiemadPosted on4:35 pm - Nov 4, 2012


4 – They have agreed a fee of £1.3 million with Loyds for the purchase of the Albion carpark therefore canceling the lease which ran till 2025 at over 300k a year.

—————————————–

Why are Lloyds selling the car parks? Surely they can’t still own assets when they were they only ones to get their money back? Do we really think CW would not buy everything in his agreement?

I keep remembering Green’s first pronouncements when he walked into Ibrox. “The one thing yyou’ll get from me is the truth.” To me, when I hear someone make this kind of statement I think “you can’t believe a word this man says.” My mantra holds firm with this guy.

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AgrajagPosted on4:44 pm - Nov 4, 2012


killiemad says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 16:35

1

0

Rate This

4 – They have agreed a fee of £1.3 million with Loyds for the purchase of the Albion carpark therefore canceling the lease which ran till 2025 at over 300k a year.

—————————————–

Why are Lloyds selling the car parks? Surely they can’t still own assets when they were they only ones to get their money back? Do we really think CW would not buy everything in his agreement?

======================

He was buying the assets from Rangers.

If Lloyds owned the car park then that wasn’t one of the assets.

Presumably he took on the lease, but has now bought the car park itself. One wonders who bought it though, was it actually Rangers. Or does someone else own it and is leasing it to them. In which case how much are they charging.

Who, as a madman once said, holds the title.

View Comment

Lamp Post SanniesPosted on4:55 pm - Nov 4, 2012


I wonder who’ll be getting a copy of the prospectus sent to them. All of us potential investors who registered our interest or only the institutional investors and the members of the Rangers family?

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AgrajagPosted on5:08 pm - Nov 4, 2012


gie’s a gonk says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 16:55

================================

I believe it’s going to be published online.

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neepheidPosted on5:10 pm - Nov 4, 2012


4 – They have agreed a fee of £1.3 million with Loyds for the purchase of the Albion carpark therefore canceling the lease which ran till 2025 at over 300k a year.

Was this a sale and leaseback to Lloyds, at a rent of £300k? If so, when did it happen? And now I think we are being told that TRFC have paid £1.3m to buy back the freehold from Lloyds. Why would Lloyds accept just over 4 years rent with over 12 years left on the lease? Can anyone help?

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bangordubPosted on5:20 pm - Nov 4, 2012


neepheid says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 17:10

Sounds like a good deal to me. From Lloyds viewpoint, if true.
What would the value of a carpark be if the CG’s entity don’t survive?

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andyPosted on5:24 pm - Nov 4, 2012


from statement made on 28th of june

Murray sought to allay fears by stressing that Ibrox Stadium, the Murray Park training ground and the Albion car park were all the property of The Rangers Football Club, “which at present is registered as Sevco Scotland Ltd until a name change is given formal approval”.

View Comment

andyPosted on5:25 pm - Nov 4, 2012


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18635527

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rangerstaxcasePosted on5:57 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Money Laundering Debate Returns (Long message- apologies)

Many of us will recall the lengthy discussions on RTC about money laundering. We ran around in circles and got nowhere.

Initially I was drawn to that subject from a source who just provided ‘Deepthroat” style information that only made sense after the fact. As a source for this story, he was usually pretty useless, but it is clear after the fact that he did have access to a lot of information. That was probably his sole objective. He often said that there was more to the story of how Whyte funded the purchase of Rangers and was surprised that we were not pursuing that subject as aggressively as we should. We know in retrospect that he was pointing us back to the Ticketus deal, but I was directed towards looking into mysterious backers and many on here wanted to focus on the potential for a money laundering angle.

In the money laundering discussions, I would point us back time and again to “please explain how it would work in detail”- how does money come in and go out. (Money laundering – meaning processing illegally obtained funds such that they appear to be the proceeds of a legitimate business). Such laundered funds can then be used to buy flashy goods like cars and houses to allow criminals to live well in the public view. Usually money laundering involves cash businesses where it is difficult to prove how much money they are taking in. Ice cream vans and taxis are great businesses for this- it is difficult for the SFO to count every cone sold or prove that a driver did not just get lucky with a hire to London and back every day). My central argument was that football is a poor business to attempt money laundering. You have countable seats in a stadium. It is difficult to declare that you have more people attending than you really have.
Many times I urged caution on the discussion on the basis that not only did we not have a shred of evidence, we did not even have a mechanism for how it would work.

Then a poster came forward with a simple enough theory. (I will try again to find this post- my first efforts at searching failed). The idea was that attendances were starting to fall quite quickly in Scotland. With stadia no longer full, there was now a laundering opportunity- declare a crowd that is about 2,000 people per game more than were really there and over a season you might be able to declare about £1.5m per year of revenue as legitimate.
At the time, I acknowledged that this was a possibility, but it seemed like small beer for all the trouble to which Craig Whyte was going. Fast forward almost a year.

Imagine if a football club was able to disguise how many paying customers it actually had by handing out thousands of free tickets for every game. It would become difficult to determine how many people really paid to get in. You could declare a very high turnover for the season, let’s say £20m (when you only had £7m in season ticket sales) and unless someone was paying close attention, it would be difficult to track where this came from or prove that the difference was not made up from paying customers to each game.

This is of course a theoretical story on money laundering in football and is in no way an attempt to link such goings on with any specific football club or any individuals.

Discuss?

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Danish PastryPosted on5:57 pm - Nov 4, 2012


From the twittersphere:

@rangerstaxcase
C. Green reported to think SFA will declare him not fit & proper due to his views. Nothing to do with his financial history? 😉
5:19pm – 4 Nov 12

@DrShermanCottle
@rangerstaxcase is this the start of his retreat from Scottish football? Using the SFA to save face?
6:04pm – 4 Nov 12

@rangerstaxcase
@DrShermanCottle Conveniently, he can ask fans for cash for his backers’ shares to allow him to leave to avoid damaging the club he loves.
6:06pm – 4 Nov 12

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rangerstaxcasePosted on6:03 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Admin- any change of you tidying up my spelling errors in the post above?
(I feel exposed not being able to correct my many typos on here! :D)

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Danish PastryPosted on6:07 pm - Nov 4, 2012


rangerstaxcase says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 17:57
1 0 Rate This
Money Laundering Debate Returns (Lonf message- apologies)

Many of us will recall the lengthy discussions on RTC about money laundering. We ran around in circles and got nowhere…
———

If I’d known you’d turn up in person at 17.57 I wouldn’t have posted your tweets at 17.57! Honour to have you back.

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andyPosted on6:08 pm - Nov 4, 2012


is green just another glib and shameless liar to turn up at the door of ibrox

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rangerstaxcasePosted on6:09 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Danish Pastry says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 18:07
_____________________________________
Thanks Danish Pastry.

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jonnyodPosted on6:25 pm - Nov 4, 2012


RTC ,I’ve read posts regarding free tickets and I must say it is hard to believe that CG could be handing out thousands of free tickets to sevco fans without the rest of the sevco fans kicking up a storm .
It’s interesting what you infer but surely someone would complain about paying 260 for a ST whilst thousands around them were getting in for free .
Also if thousands were getting in for free then that would have to work through the supporters clubs and they would surely smell a rat

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andyPosted on6:28 pm - Nov 4, 2012


they have never smelled any rats before

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61patrickPosted on6:32 pm - Nov 4, 2012


jonnyod says:
———————–
Froma poster on RM
I was a season ticket holder for many years but due to working away from home and funds tight I had to make a hard choice and not renew. i arrived back home the day of the montrose game and had a letter asking me to consider renewing and gave me five free tickets for that game as a gesture. The tickets had no price on them.

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rangerstaxcasePosted on6:32 pm - Nov 4, 2012


jonnyod says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 18:25
________________________________
I’ve seen a few grumbles on FF about people getting in for free, but it is usually overtaken by rejoicing at a press release about a new world record with some arcane criteria like “fourth tier games outside of a major city”.

Are you doubting that they do give away a lot of free tickets? I must admit that I have taken this from the interwebs rather than seen proof. So I guess I should ask first of all- what is the proof that Green is giving away lots of tickets?

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AgrajagPosted on6:36 pm - Nov 4, 2012


rangerstaxcase says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 17:57

What you are talking about is the explanation of where the illegitimate funds came from, the justification in effect.

However the difficult bit would be placement of the funds.

For an ice cream van or taxi driver it’s quite simple. Primarily because they are cash businesses, you simply put the additional cash into the bank along with your legitimate takings. As there really isn’t another record then no problem. Alternately (for the ice cream van) you lodge all legitimate sales, but buy supplies from the cash you are laundering. Either way you get it into the system

However with a football club the cash would really need to tie in with the recorded sales. Presumably via an automatic ticket system. Basically cash received has to equal tickets sold (as opposed to bums on seats). I think I mentioned this before, you would have to be able to manipulate the ticket sales in order to really use this way of laundering.

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ikiPosted on6:38 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Does anyone on here know of someone who has received a free ticket?

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bect67Posted on6:42 pm - Nov 4, 2012


tomaswell says @ 13.53

How dare you tomaswell – far from being a tramp, our revered Lobey Dosser was the Sheriff of Calton Creek!!

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scottyjimboPosted on6:45 pm - Nov 4, 2012


andy says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 16:20

“ …. 4 – They have agreed a fee of £1.3 million with Loyds for the purchase of the Albion carpark therefore canceling the lease which ran till 2025 at over 300k a year.
____________
doesnt sound right either 13 years at over 300k but sell it for 4 years worth …..”

Sounds like to me he is making sure he owns all of the land around Ibrox. Remember he said a couple of weeks ago that he had just bought Edmiston House from Minty. Now he’s apparently confirmed the car park. We assume(?) he has the stadium. Seems to me he’s making sure of his exit strategy if the share issue bombs. Wimpy Homes anyone?

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abcottPosted on6:52 pm - Nov 4, 2012


Alternative scenario;

You declare 30,000 paid and 10,000 got freebies, when really 40,000 all paid.

Therefore you only have to pay tax on 30,000. The other 10,000 goes wherever you want it (owner’s entertainment fund, players’ undeclared bonuses, bribes, etc etc).

Just a thought.

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jonnyodPosted on6:53 pm - Nov 4, 2012


RTC
I was more or less questioning the numbers that were being reported and for such numbers they would have to be distributed on a social rather than personal scale .
I can see the need for CG to create a high interest in fans attending games for his own ends but if he was doing this through supporters clubs he would have to tell them it was for the benefit of sevco and against their enemies ,that would be plausible if there was not a share issue on the cards ,surely the sevco fans are not THAT stupid
Although the post from 61partick would go some way to explaining the free ticket scenario ,one lapsed ST holder getting 5 free tickets through the post but I cannot see how these fans can think stunts like this is good for their new club ,why are they not screaming from the rooftops about what is going on .
The bottom line is that any tribute act that appears they are going top pay for anyway ,so why are they not taking the bull by the horns and making sure that they back a credible source

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angus1983Posted on7:02 pm - Nov 4, 2012


jonnyod says:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 at 18:53

Although the post from 61partick would go some way to explaining the free ticket scenario ,one lapsed ST holder getting 5 free tickets through the post …
——

Nebulous guesswork:

Relying on psychology, possibly. You’re not going to stand next to paying fans and say “I got free tickets for me and my mates – none of us paid to get in!”, are you? Neither are a lot of other people. The very “paying” fans you’re next to quite possibly got in on freebies themselves!

Couple of thousand lapsed ST holders at 5 tickets each means 10K free entries.

These tickets – I did see a scan of one of them somewhere – could be run through the system and printed with £0.00 on them, but recorded as tickets “sold” in a total figure.

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