Past the Event Horizon

ByBig Pink

Past the Event Horizon

On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.

The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.

I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.

There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.

That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.

That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.

Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.

The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.

The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.

If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.

About the author

Big Pink administrator

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

3,926 Comments so far

andygraham.66Posted on1:20 pm - Dec 3, 2013


The back five pages of the Sun are all about Celtic drawing Rangers (the new one)

Even although they didn’t 👿

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jimlarkinPosted on1:26 pm - Dec 3, 2013


blu says: (466)
December 3, 2013 at 1:06 pm
1 0 Rate This

jimlarkin says: (673)
December 3, 2013 at 12:39 pm
today’s scottish football news Sevco fan – throws flare onto Falkirk’s pitch.
the flare causes fire damage to the artificial pitch. Thousands of pounds worth of damage.
SFA compliance officer – Vincent Lunny to Punish Falkirk !!!!!!!!!
WTF ?

Jim, where’s this coming from? I’ve seen reports that the SFA has written to all six clubs involved in matches where flares were on display at the weekend, nothing specifically saying that the Compliance Officer has decided to punish Falkirk.
=============================

Daily express.

Says that the offence = Falkirk failed to control fans at their home ground

I’m not sure if it’s a ”Bryson” type SFA interpretation of the rules

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jimlarkinPosted on1:28 pm - Dec 3, 2013


andygraham.66 says: (75)
December 3, 2013 at 1:20 pm
0 0 Rate This

The back five pages of the Sun are all about Celtic drawing Rangers (the new one)

Even although they didn’t

==========================

And they couldn’t or ever will

Rangers are Dead !

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AuldheidPosted on1:36 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Got this from CQN who lead on internecine strife which presumably is what prompted the lead item.

Rangers fan group threatens to boycott club merchandise in new bid to oust Board

Derek Miller

Tuesday 3 December 2013

A RANGERS supporters group has said it may stop buying merchandise and season tickets if changes are not made at the annual general meeting.

The threat comes ahead of a meeting on December 19 when the incumbent board seeks to repel moves by a group of requisitioners to make changes into how the club is run and by who.

The Sons of Struth yesterday emailed Rangers shareholders, including Mike Ashley with whose company the club has signed a retail agreement, to “make clear that if all existing board members are not removed at the AGM we will use fan power to stop buying Rangers products, including strips and other products”.

Mr Ashley’s Sports Direct company agreed a deal with the club, under the then leadership of Charles Green, to sell merchandise at his stores.

The Sons of Struth, named after the legendary Rangers manager Bill, will also protest before tonight’s league match with Forfar Athletic at Ibrox.

A statement from the group stated it was still not happy “with the corporate governance, business acumen or trustworthiness of the current board of directors”. It added: “We can not support them or their aims.”

The group, which claims it has strong support from other fan organisations, says it will continue its campaign up until the agm and added: “If after the current board are still in place then we could as customers stop buying season tickets, match day hospitality, club merchandise, match day catering and match day magazines. We have faith in the shareholders to do the right thing at the agm.”

The statement lists the Rangers Supporters Assembly, Rangers Supporters’ Association and the Rangers Supporters’ Trust as among the bodies “who agree with the aims of the Sons of Struth”.

However, any boycott would be a significant escalation of protest and it is unclear how fully that would be supported by fans.

The requisitioners, led by Jim McColl of Clyde Blowers, seek to have four nominated businessmen elected to the Ibrox board at the agm and are specifically urging the removal of finance director Brian Stockbridge.

Ally McCoist, the Rangers manager, has appealed to fans over setting off flares at matches after the pitch at Falkirk was damaged on Saturday.

The Scottish Football Association has called for an investigation after the synthetic surface was burned by a flare launched from the stands after the final whistle of the Scottish Cup fourth-round tie, a game Rangers won 2-0.

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AuldheidPosted on1:37 pm - Dec 3, 2013


The above prompted this

The situation at RIFCland is every bit as confusing as who was on the right and the left in the Spanish Civil War.

Is this protest against folk who are going to run the club with other people’s money, but pocket more than their share of it?

and

is it for those folk who want to run the club with other people’s money but not pocket their wad?

Is their anyone standing on a platform of running the club with their own money on a sustainable basis, that might mean they will be a lot less successful than anyone running their club on the same platform as the two previous parties?

Do they really know what they are all involved in?

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AuldheidPosted on1:42 pm - Dec 3, 2013


The way things are going in RIFCland, it will not be so much are they alive or dead but can a zombie commit suicide.

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BawsmanPosted on1:43 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Auldheid says: (1067)
December 3, 2013 at 1:37 pm
==============================

“Is their anyone standing on a platform of running the club with their own money on a sustainable basis”?

That’s the elephant in the room.

I’m assuming that with the emergence of 3rd Rangers from the current doomed incarnation is when they may take this drastic (and the only feasable) course of action.

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AuldheidPosted on1:48 pm - Dec 3, 2013


To be more serious on the revolt.

Although some of the parties might be questionable in terms of civility, this is exactly what the Rangers support need to do to stop themselves being milked.

However it might mean losing Ibrox, but I have consistently said this is an attachment that gives others a hold over them.

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easyJamboPosted on2:06 pm - Dec 3, 2013


I finally got to see the Hearts CVA proposal today. I should have seen it before the Shareholders meeting on Friday past, but that’s another story.

Here’s an extract from BDO on SPFL and SFA membership.

6 SPFL and SFA Membership
6.1 The regulations of the SPFL and the SFA allow for changes in ownership of their members without affecting the rights to membership. The rights to membership however belong to the legal entity and are not capable of transfer except in possibly a solvent reconstruction of a group.

Just as well for RFC fans that HMRC didn’t get their choice of administrators (BDO) in Feb 2012.

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billyj1Posted on2:18 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Easyjambo.
Thanks for the BDO extract.
Could the more learned please explain that in laymen’s terms please. What exactly does it mean. Cheers.

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SmugasPosted on2:19 pm - Dec 3, 2013


To be fair the SoS have gone about it in the right way. Mike Ashley will be able to confirm categorically that not buying the merchandise will make no difference to TRFC revenues whatsoever!

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SmugasPosted on2:24 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Billy

My reading FWIW. Ownership can be changed internally without requirement to reapply a la Marlboro to Murray, Murray to worthington. Slight problem – owner has to be solvent to do it. And before you or anyone else 😉 starts the word liquidation does not lend itself to solvency.

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billyj1Posted on2:27 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Smugas.
Thanks for that.

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AuldheidPosted on2:30 pm - Dec 3, 2013


easyJambo says: (598)

December 3, 2013 at 2:06 pm

” a solvent reconstruction of a group.”

Now is liquidation a solvent reconstruction?

Cue Bryceee.

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AuldheidPosted on2:33 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Bawsman says: (238)

December 3, 2013 at 1:43 pm

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Auldheid says: (1067)
December 3, 2013 at 1:37 pm
==============================

“Is their anyone standing on a platform of running the club with their own money on a sustainable basis”?

That’s the elephant in the room.

I’m assuming that with the emergence of 3rd Rangers from the current doomed incarnation is when they may take this drastic (and the only feasable) course of action.
===========================
The elephant in the room.

The nettle that will not be grasped.

The fart in a torn space suit at an astronauts convention. 🙂

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tomtomPosted on2:50 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Auldheid says: (1071)
December 3, 2013 at 2:30 pm
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easyJambo says: (598)

December 3, 2013 at 2:06 pm

” a solvent reconstruction of a group.”

Now is liquidation a solvent reconstruction?

Cue Bryceee.
================
As most solvents come in a liquid form (depending on viscosity etc) Sandy Bryson could make that clause whatever he wanted it to be 😆

I just wish I had as much room for ambiguity in my business. Would certainly make my life a lot easier.

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jean7brodiePosted on3:19 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Not The Huddle Malcontent says: (1047)
December 3, 2013 at 9:49 am

…and it shames the sevco support that they show no remorse at all.
—————————————————————————————————–

NTHM, they will never feel remorse nor forgive those they, mistakenly, blame for what has happened.

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”
― Mahatma Gandhi, All Men are Brothers: Autobiographical Reflections

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bluPosted on3:28 pm - Dec 3, 2013


jimlarkin says: (675)
December 3, 2013 at 1:26 pm
Daily express.
Says that the offence = Falkirk failed to control fans at their home ground
I’m not sure if it’s a ”Bryson” type SFA interpretation of the rules

It seems to me that your interest is only in one offender but this is clearly of wider interest in Scottish football as the use of flares and smoke bombs seems to be increasing. I’m won’t give Dirty Desmond’s rag’s website a hit but can you tell me whether Hearts and Albion Rovers (or would it be Hamilton?) are also to be called to account on the same basis as Falkirk?

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Angus1983Posted on3:41 pm - Dec 3, 2013


easyJambo says:
December 3, 2013 at 2:06 pm

6 SPFL and SFA Membership
6.1 The regulations of the SPFL and the SFA allow for changes in ownership of their members without affecting the rights to membership. The rights to membership however belong to the legal entity and are not capable of transfer except in possibly a solvent reconstruction of a group.
——

Let me get this right … in this interpretation, the rights to SPFL/SFA membership belonged to the legal entity – RFC 2012 plc as is – and cannot be transferred. Unless in the case where an existing company reorganises its assets, sub-companies, etc.

How exactly did the RFC 2012 plc membership get transferred to an entirely new company, Sevco Scotland, then?

Or am I missing the point? It wouldn’t be the first time. 🙂

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StevieBCPosted on3:42 pm - Dec 3, 2013


cosmichaggis says: (68)
December 3, 2013 at 12:44 pm

The cynic in me is already thinking that the old SFA cold ball/hot ball routine for Sevco and Celtic in the Cup draw will continue until the final. Look out for lots more sending offs and penalties in the next few rounds in the Sevco matches…
=========================
And this lack of trust in the SFA is another significant cost for accommodating TRFC.

As Auldheid has been banging on for a long time now, the SFA has lost fans’ trust.

Consider if TRFC get to play say Dundee United in the semi-final of the Scottish Cup.
And let’s just say it’s 1-1 with 5 minutes to go.
The ref awards a ‘soft’ penalty to TRFC, e.g. the ‘foul’ was outside the box and/or there was no contact at all. TRFC score the penalty and progress to the final.

Now, without wishing to incur the wrath of TSFM for talking about ‘dodgy refereeing decisions of the past’ 😉 we know that refs make mistakes every week: it’s part of the game and they’re only human after all.

But in the above scenario I would suggest that the majority of non-TRFC fans would view such a late ref decision as highly suspicious.
That might be unfair on the ref – but that’s exactly where we are today.
The SFA has lost so much trust and credibility amongst the fans over the last couple of years in particular, that the average fan might indeed think that ‘anything is possible’ wrt to TRFC and the assistance it receives from the SFA.

And that’s yet another reason why Ogilvie should have left long before now.
Ogilvie personifies that lack of trust in the SFA…and yet he was at the draw on Monday !

And another worrying scenario to consider.
Following on from the dodgy penalty above, TRFC meet Celtic in the final.
In the run up to the game there would be lots of discussion, [certainly on t’interweb if not in the MSM], about the perceived refereeing favour(s) given to TRFC in the semi.

And in the final, what do you think would happen if a Celtic player e.g. got harshly sent off in the first half, or if TRFC where awarded another soft penalty early in the game ?

This is what the untrustworthy SFA – and Ogilvie – is potentially building up for their ‘showpiece’ final game of the season… 🙄

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jean7brodiePosted on3:49 pm - Dec 3, 2013


StevieBC says: (918)
December 3, 2013 at 3:42 pm

I feel the need to mobilize the fans of all clubs on this very point. What do we do? 😡

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bryce9aPosted on3:52 pm - Dec 3, 2013


easyJambo says: (598)
December 3, 2013 at 2:06 pm

I finally got to see the Hearts CVA proposal today.
Here’s an extract from BDO on SPFL and SFA membership.

6 SPFL and SFA Membership
6.1 The regulations of the SPFL and the SFA allow for changes in ownership of their members without affecting the rights to membership. The rights to membership however belong to the legal entity and are not capable of transfer except in possibly a solvent reconstruction of a group.

Just as well for RFC fans that HMRC didn’t get their choice of administrators (BDO) in Feb 2012.

Interesting, thanks for posting, a few points here…

1. The phrase “change of ownership of their members”, if the erudite HirsuitPursuit’s “member = the company” principle is to be accepted, then that phrase CANNOT be referring to a transfer of membership, of any kind, at all, but rather a change in the stakeholding/ownership of shares within that member company. Therefore that sentence is of no interest to the OCNC debate as, we all accept, in our scenario there was no transfer in shares, but in assets.

2. The “rights of membership belongs to the legal entity” is uncontroversial, I accept it is the company which is the club’s legal representative and so holds the contracts, including in this case membership of league/association.

3. Now for the interesting bit: ” [membership is] not capable of transfer except in possibly a solvent reconstruction of a group.”
Bombshell. So what happened a matter of months ago, a transfer of full membership out with a solvent reconstruction of a group, apparently couldn’t have happened – the membership was “not capable of transfer”. How odd, is that what they meant?

This can only be interpreted a few ways – so here goes….

A. The transfer of membership Rangers apparently got didn’t happen at all.
B. The transfer of membership Rangers got was a case of the SFA breaching their own rules – a remarkable and possibly slanderous allegation to make, especially so considering the “at the board’s discretion” line that appears to permit open season on such transfers as the SFA board sees fit.
C. BDO are playing with words trying to give the false impression that Hearts SFA membership couldn’t be transferred in any circumstances (when in fact the rules permit it) in order to make the requirement for the CVA’s approval (this is a CVA proposal after all) all the more pressing in order to “save the club”.

Have I missed one out? Would be interested to know.

Personally I’d go with scenario “C”. The first one seems impossible given the statements that have been made, the second one seems impossible given the wording of the rules, therefore – process of elimination – I’d go with the latter. Therefore, although something new and of interest, this little extract makes no substantive difference to the Rangers OCNC debate, as it’s BDO playing games to get their CVA through and not a reliable representation of the rules over transfer of membership.

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scottcPosted on3:57 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Smugas says: (596)
December 3, 2013 at 12:56 pm

EDIT: Just on the winter break thing. I don’t actually see what the problem is tbh. If celtic want to have one then fine. If they want to use it to play somewhere else, then still fine as long as no-one is put out by the rearrangement.

They already did, didn’t they? Did Celtic not play Liverpool on August 10th instead of playing the scheduled league match? Is that not, in reality, why the ‘rule’ was introduced?

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jockybhoyPosted on4:00 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Smugas says: (596) December 3, 2013 at 10:05 am
“What is to stop another club creating a situation that titles are artificially ‘won’ to add to a historic collection… “ let me stop you there Smugas.

I am loving the precedent of buying “history” and am poised, along with a select group of like-minded indivduals, for when NewGers goes bust again to buy their bought history and add those titles to that of my Bhoys, making an unbeatable “World Record” of titles. Even if we have to give a few honours (sic) back to the teams that actually deserved them, we’ll still have an unassailable record.

No Gers. None of their history. Celtic World Record. As you say, “there’s no downside”!

.
.
.
.
.
Caution: for the avoidance of doubt (RIP Paul) the above post was using irony and in no way should represent l’actualité. Much Like NewGers “history”.

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jockybhoyPosted on4:05 pm - Dec 3, 2013


scottc says: (378) December 3, 2013 at 3:57 pm
They already did, didn’t they? Did Celtic not play Liverpool on August 10th instead of playing the scheduled league match? Is that not, in reality, why the ‘rule’ was introduced?

My understanding was the rule was introduced at short notice and a number of clubs had made prior contractual commitments. TBH I thought that was a short-term issue though, didn’t realise it was now enshrined…

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Para HandyPosted on4:16 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Madbhoy24941 says: (328)
December 3, 2013 at 9:26 am
13 0 Rate This

Para Handy says: (19)
December 3, 2013 at 9:07 am
———————————
Not a good idea in the environment we currently operate in, there are idiots out there that would see this as an opportunity to influence results. I don’t believe this is the best solution.
========================
I agree that this could be that opportunity, however, other than the introduction of either airport style security scanners or 100% CCTV coverage (which can still be inconclusive) what else can be done? Fines and playing behind closed doors don’t seem to work (and indeed can punish innocent “clubs” whose fans don’t get to support them).

I think the penalty award would make this self policing anyway as other fans who currently watch this happen would stop it and any abuse for score manipulation (presumably for betting purposes?) would be difficult and not as certain as the big syndicates want.

Anyway, thanks for the response and I would be interested in what methods could be used as currently, the normal punishments don’t seem to work…

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willmacufreePosted on4:20 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Smugas says: (596)
December 3, 2013 at 12:39 pm
4 0 Rate This

willmacufree says: (244)
December 3, 2013 at 11:47 am
—————————-
I think you’re giving me too much credit, but I’ll take it!

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BarcabhoyPosted on4:27 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Concerned about slandering The SFA but not at all concerned about slandering BDO !!

The hypocrisy continues at full pace.

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StevieBCPosted on4:27 pm - Dec 3, 2013


jean7brodie says: (378)
December 3, 2013 at 3:49 pm

StevieBC says: (918)
December 3, 2013 at 3:42 pm

I feel the need to mobilize the fans of all clubs on this very point. What do we do? 😡
============================
Not sure j7b – but what I am certain about wrt Ogilvie is that he is not going anywhere soon.
And there is no apparent motivation amongst the 42 member clubs to even query Ogilvie’s position.

It would seem that – again – there has to be a fans’ revolt, similar to the one which stopped TRFC being dropped into the SPL / SFL1.

Boycotting Scotland matches would achieve an immediate reaction from the SFA, IMO – but understandably this might not be widely supported amongst fans, and could be unfair on the national team.

I had suggested a while back that a co-ordinated email / postal campaign to the SFA, SMSM and other stakeholders could be effective – but IIRC on this site it was commented that this action could actually be viewed as potentially ‘intimidating’ behaviour. [?] I still sent off my own communications – without any replies of course.

What actually did produce a direct reaction from the authorities last year was the ‘SPL Fans’ Survey’.
Again, IIRC about 15K fans voted, and the results where presented / discussed with Doncaster.
[The follow-up with Doncaster was ineffective – and confidential ! – but it at least caught the attention of the SPL hierarchy.]

Would another fans’ survey be worthwhile – this time focussed on Ogilvie’s position and the fans’ perception of the SFA – but with a proper, public follow-up ?
[The survey questions posed wouldn’t even have to relate to TRFC specifically either.]

Perhaps the questions could be aligned with the SFA’s own ‘2020 Vision’ objectives – and specifically with the stated performance indicator measure of being “Respected and Trusted to Lead” ? [Don’t laugh !]

Shirley, the SFA couldn’t just ignore constructive, independent feedback from a significant number of Scottish football fans ? But if they did, then maybe the fans could canvass their own clubs with the survey results ?

Just a thought…

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scapaflowPosted on4:31 pm - Dec 3, 2013


If anyone wants a real giggle to brighten up a driech day, have a peruse at Mr McMurdo’s latest offering of

“But the brutal reality right now is that year on year Celtic are getting weaker while Rangers are getting stronger.”

It really is priceless alternate reality stuff, oh, also fan power is bad, and it looks like fans on the board (another of Mr Green’s promises) won’t be happening any time soon

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StevieBCPosted on4:36 pm - Dec 3, 2013


The search for the 5 Way Agreement at Hampden is getting serious !
Plagiarised from PMcG twitter. 😉

https://twitter.com/NickPLittlewood/status/407840079198289921/photo/1

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Reilly1926Posted on4:38 pm - Dec 3, 2013


bryce9a says: (78)
December 3, 2013 at 3:52 pm

C. BDO are playing with words trying to give the false impression that Hearts SFA membership couldn’t be transferred in any circumstances (when in fact the rules permit it) in order to make the requirement for the CVA’s approval (this is a CVA proposal after all) all the more pressing in order to “save the club”.
_________________________

“Playing with words” ? I sniggered at the irony of your comment there.

When do we get to the part when Sevconians mock laughter and say that they knew you were a new club all the time and it was one big wind up ? You surely can’t keep up the sad pretence much longer.

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AllyjamboPosted on4:42 pm - Dec 3, 2013


I see that people like Charles Green, Jim Traynor, Chick Young and most of the MSM are to be believed ahead of Bryan Jackson of BDO. Now it may be alright for people such as Charles Green to say one thing one day, and the exact opposite the next, his business model doesn’t make that unacceptable. Bryan Jackson, on the other hand, doesn’t have that luxury. His reputation IS his fortune. Although important to BDO, and Bryan Jackson, in terms of letting the football world see they can perform successful administrations, the Hearts are small time to them in their overall business. Does anyone really believe they would dare use the Green tactic of blatant lying, just to get a result? Besides, who would he be fooling? Me, the Hearts support, my sister, easyjambo, or just the administrators of Ukio Bankas and UBIG? Yeh, they’d fall for that line, wouldn’t they? I mean, they’re just ordinary punters without a legal brain between them.

The business world might be full of charlatans like David Murray, Craig Whyte and Charles Green, all with lies as their modus operandi, but not all businessmen are liars and cheats and some (maybe not many) are honourable, even if just for the sake of their own reputation.

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bryce9aPosted on4:49 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Allyjambo,

Either you accept my interpretation, or you genuinely believe BDO are claiming either:

1. The SFA lied when they said Rangers’ newco received a transfer of membership from oldco.
Or…
2. The SFA broke their own rules within their Articles of Association in allowing said transfer to occur.

Excuse me for believing BDO doing a bit of spin to get their CVA through is more likely than them claiming to be a greater authority on the processes and articles of the SFA than the SFA themselves.

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TartanwulverPosted on4:50 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Reilly1926 says: (199)
December 3, 2013 at 4:38 pm

When do we get to the part when Sevconians mock laughter and say that they knew you were a new club all the time and it was one big wind up ?
———————————————————-
maybe they are saving it up for a big announcement next 1 April?

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Madbhoy24941Posted on4:50 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Para Handy says: (20)

December 3, 2013 at 4:16 pm

0

0

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Madbhoy24941 says: (328)
December 3, 2013 at 9:26 am
13 0 Rate This

Para Handy says: (19)
December 3, 2013 at 9:07 am
———————————
Not a good idea in the environment we currently operate in, there are idiots out there that would see this as an opportunity to influence results. I don’t believe this is the best solution.
========================
I agree that this could be that opportunity, however, other than the introduction of either airport style security scanners or 100% CCTV coverage (which can still be inconclusive) what else can be done?

—————————-

The solution is simple, 5 years in prison for any individual caught in possession! There are now more than enough cameras now on the crowd to help identify who is throwing or holding these hazards, time to get tough on the imbeciles!

I would have absolutely no sympathy for anyone caught and punished in a severe manner, even if it was one of my brothers.

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Danish PastryPosted on4:50 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Interesting call at the start of yesterday’s SSB. Gist of it was bemoaning Scottish football’s high-profile association with betting. Great call actually, first time I’ve heard that on air from a caller.

Derek Johnston was not impressed by the idea and quickly mentioned something about what happens if we take booze off the shirts too. The call was cut short because the caller made what was described as a personal attack on DJ by bringing up a drink driving episode in DJs past. Lots of outrage.

A very good call from one of the Ibrox faithful too. Question the style of play, signings, etc. Molto outrage from DJ. Marc Guidi backed the caller.

Then there was good old Kenny Shiels talking about an OF mafia when it came managerial appointments (On Sportsound)

Nothing like feather rufflers.

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AllyjamboPosted on4:58 pm - Dec 3, 2013


My God, there’s someone on here thinks the people who run Scottish football are honest. Who would have thunk it 🙄

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Exiled CeltPosted on5:26 pm - Dec 3, 2013


That Armageddon is a real bitch eh!

Matthew Elder ‏@mattelder_ffp 14m
Raith Rovers announce profit of £81,350 for for the year ended June 30, 2013. Club is heading in the right direction on and off the park.

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jockybhoyPosted on5:32 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Well done to Raith Rovers.

Armageddon ma’ Archie…. 😀 😀 😀

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Danish PastryPosted on5:35 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Exiled Celt says: (829)
December 3, 2013 at 5:26 pm
2 0 Rate This

That Armageddon is a real bitch eh!

Matthew Elder ‏@mattelder_ffp 14m
Raith Rovers announce profit of £81,350 for for the year ended June 30, 2013. Club is heading in the right direction on and off the park.
————

Great upside to the RFC story is finding out how thoroughly decent and well run most clubs are compared to them, both the current and former.

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Blindsummit63Posted on5:43 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Many congratulations to Raith Rovers. A well run, honest, community club, run by a man with morals and scruples. And REAL dignity!

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Paulmac2Posted on5:45 pm - Dec 3, 2013


bryce9a says: (80)
December 3, 2013 at 5:09pm
duplesis says: (70)
December 3, 2013 at 5:01 pm

Exactly. Are we really supposed to believe that BDO have some new understanding of that particular rule…
………………………………………
That sums up the SEVCO problem…”do they expect us to believe”…opinions no…but legal facts YES!

BDO have stated what they believe to be correct…why are they any different to you?

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symptomlessPosted on6:14 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Reading through from last night about the transfer of “Golden shares” from the Football League from and to oldcos and newcos for English clubs in financial strife.

I’m sure the Rangers SPL share was transferred to Dundee.

http://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spl-press-release–share-transfer-approved-2012-08-03/
At eight minutes past ten this morning, the member clubs unanimously approved the transfer of Rangers’ SPL share to Dundee Football Club.

Dundee FC is now a member of the SPL.

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Reilly1926Posted on6:14 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Anyway all this OCNC stuff is just a diversion away from the fact that TRFC are in abject turmoil and are likely to enter their first administration event in their short history.

Sale and lease back is the way ahead. A guaranteed £2m rental each and every year is exceptional business for the spivs who have made a miraculous recovery from Rangeritis.

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scapaflowPosted on6:37 pm - Dec 3, 2013


symptomless says: (6)
December 3, 2013 at 6:14 pm

Stop confusing Bryce with facts, he’s going to have to go and see if there is an approved MH answer to that one on RM….

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Danish PastryPosted on6:50 pm - Dec 3, 2013


jean7brodie says: (382)
December 3, 2013 at 6:41 pm
1 0 Rate This

Danish Pastry says: (1755)
December 3, 2013 at 6:15 pm

And after the ellipsis you were going to say… the Sevconians
———-

Possibly, I left it open-ended 🙂

You know, I would admire followers of the newco if they called themselves Sevconians. Just imagine if a supporters group had the humour to make fun of themselves and their critics. It would disarm a lot of people. But it’s not really part of the landscape. Pity.

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TSFMPosted on7:18 pm - Dec 3, 2013


I have created a new thread for this OCNC stuff. It is sucking us into a vortex of nihilistic tit-for-tat, giving grist to the mill of those who indulge in sarcasm, mockery and abuse.

For the record the overwhelming consensus of this blog is that the new club is a New Club. No amount of argument will change that in the foreseeable future, and no justification or argument/counter-argument is necessary, unless your aim is to derail the blog.

If you still feel the need to either troll – or to feed them – fill your boots, but movement to the new thread will be swift.

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neepheidPosted on7:23 pm - Dec 3, 2013


TSFM says: (564)
December 3, 2013 at 7:18 pm
2 0 Rate This

I have created a new thread for this OCNC stuff.

=========================
Thank you, TSFM, you have probably saved my sanity.

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scapaflowPosted on7:23 pm - Dec 3, 2013


TSFM says: (564)
December 3, 2013 at 7:18 pm

Good move

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TSFMPosted on7:28 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Could we point out that the OP is not concerned with the minutiae of the OCNC debate. It is concerned with the fall-out from the SFA’s failure to bring clarity to the issue, and the subsequent damaging effect (which the OP infers is irreparable) on fan-fan relations and fan-club relations.

Can we also make it clear that we have no problem with people pushing an agenda on behalf of football clubs on here. TRFC are not the only “entity” to have done so, and I am sure the more astute readers of the blog will have identified examples.

What we do have a problem with is when co-ordinated posts and registrations begin to appear, designed to take us off the road. (Our old friend Enkafid for example has been banging on the door (to deaf ears) from round about the time the current thread went awry:-) )

Whilst ever reluctant to bang the TSFM drum myself, I am somewhat flattered on your behalf that we appear to be worth what is a not inconsiderable effort of will and manpower in order to pull us off-course. It may be explained by the fact that our figures are still climbing, as our readership and participation levels increase.

We may be doing something right after all. My personal sense of pride at how this blog has evolved is mainly due to what privateland had in mind when he took up the reins from RTC – to keep a cross-partisan community together in friendship and respect, even through disagreement.

I think that as a community we have lived up to that in spades, backslapping or not. The mods can’t allow that to be dismantled by pedantry and insult.

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jean7brodiePosted on7:38 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1756)
December 3, 2013 at 6:50 pm

Thanks for the courteous reply DP.
Don’t know why my post was removed as it was tongue in cheek. ❓

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scapaflowPosted on7:39 pm - Dec 3, 2013


TSFM says: (565)
December 3, 2013 at 7:28 pm

Most folk get that, & I don’t think anyone aside from young Bryce disagrees with it. The SFA could clear this up, one way or the other with a short, simple, clear & unambiguous statement. It is telling that so far, they have gone to great lengths to avoid doing that, its almost as if they want to stoke the controversy with all the adverse consequences the OP highlights.

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TSFMPosted on7:48 pm - Dec 3, 2013


scapaflow says: (1230)

December 3, 2013 at 7:39 pm (Edit)

Most folk get that, & I don’t think anyone aside from young Bryce disagrees with it. The SFA could clear this up, one way or the other with a short, simple, clear & unambiguous statement. It is telling that so far, they have gone to great lengths to avoid doing that, its almost as if they want to stoke the controversy with all the adverse consequences the OP highlights.
_______________________________________________________________

Thus my earlier remark about OCNC being the biggest squirrel of all.

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scapaflowPosted on7:50 pm - Dec 3, 2013


“who indulge in sarcasm”

From the sublime Pratchett

“Lord Vetinari wouldn’t stop at sarcasm,” . “He might use … irony.”

see also

“Mad’s when you froth at the mouth. He’s insane, that’s when you froth at the brain”

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campsiejoePosted on7:53 pm - Dec 3, 2013


scapaflow says: (1230)
December 3, 2013 at 7:39 pm

SFA will never clear it up
If they say they are the same, they will then be seen to be in breach of their own rules, and at odds with insolvency law
If they say they are new, then they expose themselves to all of the forces Sevconia can muster against them, and we know what those are like
A Catch 22 of the SFA’s own making

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on7:57 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Allyjambo says: (694)
December 3, 2013 at 4:58 pm
39 0 Rate This

My God, there’s someone on here thinks the people who run Scottish football are honest. Who would have thunk it 🙄
===========

Only another member of the SFA would say that.

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StevieBCPosted on8:01 pm - Dec 3, 2013


TSFM says: (566)
December 3, 2013 at 7:28 pm

My personal sense of pride at how this blog has evolved is mainly due to what privateland had in mind when he took up the reins from TRFC…
===============================
Must be a typo shirley…? 😉

You haven’t forgotten RTC already ?!

[damn initialisms! fixed. TSFM]

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billyj1Posted on8:01 pm - Dec 3, 2013


I have just had the great misfortune of listening for a few moments to what is called a radio phone in programme on Clyde. It was purely accidental as I returned from delivering my eldest Grandson to his parents, a short 10 minute drive. What I listened to was nothing less than a party political broadcast on behalf of the latest reincarnation of Rangers in general, and Super Ally in particular.
The only voice I recognised, unfortunately, was that of Mr Keevins, who within less than a few minutes denied that McCoist had a million shares, and stated that at the AGM McCoist would not cast his vote and wait to see who his boss was at the end of the meeting. Another panelist then went on to sing the praises of Ally, a superman who has done great good for the club.
Not a mention of his million shares at 1p, his ridiculous salary, his spending and signing policy. They then went on to praise the current Rangers(sic) and the new world record they would break when they beat Forfar tonight.
Honest to goodness all of this within less than 10 minutes.
My ears are nippin, ma brain is bursting.
God help deliver us from this insanity.

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Exiled CeltPosted on8:06 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Think James has been reading Bryce09’s ramblings on here…..

James Forrest ‏@LaytonBhoy 1h
Weary http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/?p=1134 weary of hearing about sevco, weary of fans in denial, weary of people blaming everyone else for what happened

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smallchangePosted on8:30 pm - Dec 3, 2013


jean7brodie says: (383)
December 3, 2013 at 7:38 pm
—————————————-

Mine also, guess I’m destined to be forever a lurker. Ah well… back on task then. 🙂

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helpmaboabPosted on8:44 pm - Dec 3, 2013


I echo James Forest’s sentiments .I am weary.We are all weary.I am weary of our football authority’s complicity in favouring a bunch of cheats,fraudsters,and imposters.The question is,what do we do about it?
Yes,we can post our opposition and disgust on blogs like this at everything they have done over the period.But do they listen,do they even care?We are talking here of ‘The Establishment’ defending their own.This has been the way of it for longer than I have been following football and that’s quite a while.
I am proud to be an internet bampot.However,at 66 years of age,I do not wish to become a caricature constantly being dismissed and sniggered at by intellectual pygmies such as Keevins,Jackson,Traynor et al.
I want to know how we can be more proactive outwith this blog.Gimme the leaflets or whatever.I live very near Hampden, it’s no problem.I read and occasionally contribute to TSFM. I enjoy it .However I will inevitably tire of being a member of The Popular People’s Front. (Monty Python’s Life Of Brian acknowledged)

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SquigglePosted on8:49 pm - Dec 3, 2013


TSFM on December 3, 2013 at 7:28 pm

Many thanks for hopefully averting a OCNC swamp from which whoever knows what would have emerged.

Well done to all on TSFM if concerted efforts are and have been made to bring a particular message to our attention. As the establishment have done with the MSM, they will try to here as well. The tactic really is one of obfuscation, creeping revisionism and startling diversion. We lose track of what is being said here and elsewhere each time these agents turn up. That’s their aim. Well done TSFM for keeping the drawbridge and our standards up.

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bluPosted on8:52 pm - Dec 3, 2013


Paulmac2 says: (806)
December 3, 2013 at 5:45 pm

bryce9a says: (80)
December 3, 2013 at 5:09pm
duplesis says: (70)
December 3, 2013 at 5:01 pm

Exactly. Are we really supposed to believe that BDO have some new understanding of that particular rule…
………………………………………
That sums up the SEVCO problem…”do they expect us to believe”…opinions no…but legal facts YES!

BDO have stated what they believe to be correct…why are they any different to you?

Good question. The answer is that BDO is a court appointed Administrator and its professionalism and reputation is its whole business. You’ll have made your own mind up about bryce.

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jean7brodiePosted on8:53 pm - Dec 3, 2013


smallchange says: (9)
December 3, 2013 at 8:30 pm

We must be Nigels cos that’s what the weans in school call somebody shunned 😉
Haven’t even had an explanation and that is just bad manners and don’t know where to find it if there is one!
Lurkers of the world unite!

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fergusslayedthebluesPosted on8:58 pm - Dec 3, 2013


helpmaboab
Fear not ,decisions have been taken and actions been perpetrated in the last two years by the peepil in charge ,that IMO have discarded all pretence of fairness for all clubs and sporting integrity and as such they can never be undone .
I believe that in the fullness of time this saga will be exposed as the most despicable abuse of office and distasteful era in the history of our game and I sincerely hope that all involved in it are exposed and are given no hiding place or dignified garden leave deals.

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scapaflowPosted on9:08 pm - Dec 3, 2013


campsiejoe says: (605)
December 3, 2013 at 7:53 pm

I agree. I think all the managers who sit around the Hampden boardrooms, must have taken a sickie when the “Owning your Decisions” seminar was held on their management 101 course….

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scapaflowPosted on9:23 pm - Dec 3, 2013


TSFM

We are in a holding pattern at the moment.

The Hearts situation is evolving in accordance with the rules, with the real bright spot being the demeanour of the Hearts’ fans – an example to us all.

As predicted the requistioners, have resolved to dissolve. The only measurable result of their activities has been the tarnishing of Jim McColl’s reputation. Mr Paul Murray is back where he started, impotent, frustrated & powerless to influence events, much less shape them.

The AGM will be entertaining for all concerned but will not bring any clarity to anything.

The new “Sons of Struth” initiative is interesting, if their “Boycott Season Books & Merchandising” campaign gets some momentum it may bring things to a head. The articulate Rangers men still prefer to argue over relative trivia than deal with the real question – Rangers survived this season because their parent company got a one off £20 million pound injection, with no credit line, no significant new investment available, how is next season going to be funded?

As for the SFA, well, they continue to do what they do best, sit tight and pray that events or somebody, anybody, else will deal with the nasty issues lurking in the bulging in trays.

2012 was an Annus Horribilis for Scottish Football, 2013 wasn’t much of an improvement, 2014 looks like being as bad as 2012, only this time the eyes of the world will be focussed on Scottish sport as a result of the Commonwealth Games.

Does anyone really believe that the small men who sit on the SFA board are up to the task?

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upthehoopsPosted on9:30 pm - Dec 3, 2013


I just read an article in the Herald where Lee McCulloch is heavily quoted. Assuming he is being quoted correctly, the arrogance is oozing from his every word. The truth is if Referees actually had the guts, this player could be sent off in every game he plays, for two yellow card offences, some of which should be for diving. Unfortunately Referees don’t have the guts.

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paulsatimPosted on9:32 pm - Dec 3, 2013


StevieBC says: (921)
December 3, 2013 at 4:36 pm
32 0 Rate This

The search for the 5 Way Agreement at Hampden is getting serious !
Plagiarised from PMcG twitter. 😉

https://twitter.com/NickPLittlewood/status/407840079198289921/photo/1

==========================================================

Maybe they’ll find the Pinsent Mason report too!

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paulsatimPosted on9:35 pm - Dec 3, 2013


upthehoops says: (695)
December 3, 2013 at 9:30 pm

Heard him on the radio this morning saying how much the team has improved this season, no mention, of course, that they now have more SPL players this season!

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scapaflowPosted on9:41 pm - Dec 3, 2013


upthehoops says: (695)
December 3, 2013 at 9:30 pm

It’s partly guts and partly the knowledge that they will get feck all support, and lots of grief from their line managers if they were to do that.

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StevieBCPosted on9:42 pm - Dec 3, 2013


scapaflow says: (1233)
December 3, 2013 at 9:23 pm

As predicted the requistioners, have resolved to dissolve. The only measurable result of their activities has been the tarnishing of Jim McColl’s reputation…
======================================
That is one angle of the TRFC shambles which I still don’t understand.

Nobody can deny that McColl is a smart, driven guy.
Probably not a sterling billionaire, but a pretty wealthy multi-millionaire all the same.

I was surprised that a ‘cash rich / time poor’ sort of guy would show any interest at all in TRFC.
I was even more surprised that whilst he publicly declared that TRFC/RIFC could be a great investment , he would not be investing any of his – or other people’s money – in this particular ‘dog with fleas’.

I don’t believe that McColl is the sort of character who would be affected by ‘Rangersitis’.
I also don’t believe it’s just a massive error of judgement on his part to risk his reputation on TRFC.
It just doesn’t stack up.
There must be more behind his initial decision to get so publicly involved ?

Just another curious thread of the long running Govan club saga… 🙄

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scapaflowPosted on9:46 pm - Dec 3, 2013


StevieBC says: (922)
December 3, 2013 at 9:42 pm

It feels more like a reprise of the Bill Miller situation. Potential opportunity spotted, a little due diligence done resulting in a “WTF, get me out of here” moment,

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FIFAPosted on9:48 pm - Dec 3, 2013


billyj1
Keevins is only mentioned on this blog for his lack of knowledge ,about anything,he has bluffed his way over the years to where he is now,the bottom of the snake pitt that is the media spouted out and a total contempt of their readership, they know they are idiots but they need to continue the charade while they dine at the same table ,for fear of someone ordering a different dish, I have a lot of tales to tell ,but now is not the time .Patience is a virtue.

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