Past the Event Horizon

ByBig Pink

Past the Event Horizon

On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.

The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.

I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.

There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.

That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.

That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.

Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.

The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.

The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.

If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.

About the author

Big Pink administrator

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

3,926 Comments so far

jockybhoyPosted on9:54 am - Dec 11, 2013


ptd1978 says: (108) December 10, 2013 at 5:43 pm

Are you seriously suggesting we put ScotPlod in a position that their “opinion” can affect the results of Celtic (or any other team’s) matches?

Or that clubs are simultaneously fined and blocked from having supporters at away games (double whammy)?

Celtic play plenty of night games (Champions League for example) without bother and plenty of early kickoffs, usually in the Highlands, which is no fun for fans.

IMO what happened last week was an aberration, not a precedent, and Celtic have made a rapid and visible response to it.

Final thought – you obviously have better access to data for the Friday night games than me as I really was unaware of any skewing to or away from any teams. As these games are really at the behest of the TV company, and there will undoubtedly be lower viewing figures on a Friday night than a weekend, might it not be that the TV company wants to ensure biggest numbers by having certain teams on the weekend?

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upthehoopsPosted on9:54 am - Dec 11, 2013


A glance around various MSM sites and back pages this morning shows a recurring theme, which is the big, bad, nasty, evil, Brian Stockbridge must hand back his ill deserved bonus or it’s curtains. Compare that to the sympathetic coverage given to McCoist at the weekend amidst his enduring struggle to give up half his £800K+ salary. Ally’s plight would bring a tear to a glass eye, yet a simple donation to charity would work wonders until the suits get round to sorting out this great social injustice!

On a wider note if Stockbridge’s bonus is undeserved did McCoist and his coaching team receive one for winning the league last season? It was akin to shooting fish in a barrel after all, yet at times they made a right ham fisted attempt at it.

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Danish PastryPosted on10:10 am - Dec 11, 2013


ringostar says: (12)
December 11, 2013 at 8:16 am
4 0 Rate This

Watch out Governance approaching!
———-

Sounds as though it’s internal governance. Same faces, different hats.

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jean7brodiePosted on10:20 am - Dec 11, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1783)
December 11, 2013 at 10:10 am

Yip. Deckchairs and Titanic.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on10:23 am - Dec 11, 2013


The spivs’ business plan, as presened to and tacitly approved by the SFA

http://www.wspa-international.org/wspaswork/bears/bearfarming/insidebearfarms.aspx

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ForresDeePosted on11:09 am - Dec 11, 2013


Twitter news from Angela Haggerty:

Lord Haggerty ‏@AngelaHaggerty 32m
ASA rules in favour of #Rangers FC in advertising dispute following appeal http://po.st/ryJFRZ

Now, that is a really interesting fudge, separate histories, but can use the claim to be the same. Someone has thought very hard how to stay clear of phoenixing claims!

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FIFAPosted on11:17 am - Dec 11, 2013


I think if McCoist was seriously concerned about the financial plight of his club he would set up a direct debit into an account to be returned to his club when an agreement is reached ,[WHEN] ,giving a donation to charity ,all be it welcome ,is not what the pay cut is about ,its about helping his skint club out,if he was setting aside 30% of his top line per month at the moment ,what would be the actual loss to him from his net pay,he is missing a great oppertunity to make himself a real rangers man with the bears,why ,its obvious ,he has a key to the bunker.

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FIFAPosted on11:29 am - Dec 11, 2013


ASA decision ,pray do tell who the SFA comment came from ,we should be told,hope it was not from “its a decision for the fans man”

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chancer67Posted on11:33 am - Dec 11, 2013


When Craig Whyte bought Rangers from DM did the SFA transfer the membership from the previous owner to the new owner, as I can’t recall anything in the press at the time.

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normanbatesmumfcPosted on11:37 am - Dec 11, 2013


“We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football ‘club’ varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner”

Another epic failure/fudge by the SFA, if indeed they made this statement. What they forgot to add to the above quote is;
“However in the case of RFC the club was not a separate entity and it is now in liquidation. However in the case of the new club TRFC, should this club be sold by the club’s corporate owner, (RIFC) then the club would continue its illustrious 18 month history”

The truth hurts

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cowanpetePosted on11:37 am - Dec 11, 2013


Fisiani says: (44)
December 10, 2013 at 11:55 pm
I do actually feel sorry for the honest fans who valiantly support the team that plays at Ibrox.

====================
You’re clearly a better man than me then.
Sometimes we forget, it’s JUST a football team.
Most things in life are more important than whether a football team exists or ceases to exist.
I would not waste one moment of emotion for any fan whose team disappears.
I hope that doesn’t make me a “bad person”.

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ForresDeePosted on11:42 am - Dec 11, 2013


bryce9a says: (94)
December 11, 2013 at 11:22 am

ASA consider the matter closed.

This has the same hallmarks as a lot of decisions made regarding the ibrox outfit, strange that.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on11:49 am - Dec 11, 2013


Word of the Day: Debenture

de•ben•ture (d -b n ch r)
verb. orig. old french
1. To remove a seat or bench from the ownership or usage of another
Typical usage “You’ve been debentured, it’s not your seat anymore, now p#ss off”

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Tic 6709Posted on11:53 am - Dec 11, 2013


In a fresh adjudication, the ASA said it was confident that consumers would understand the claim was in reference to the history of Rangers Football Club, but did accept that that the club’s history was “separate to that of Newco”.
=====================
Well, 54 and died.There will be no 55.
Now i’m away out Christmas shopping,see if I can buy some history.

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Danish PastryPosted on12:22 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Somebody needs to get the message across to Dunfermline and Hearts, pronto, that liquidation is only a change of corporate structure. Nae bother.

“We consulted with UEFA, which explained that its rules allowed for the recognition of the ‘sporting continuity’ of a club’s match record, even if that club’s corporate structure had changed,” the ruling stated.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on12:33 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Re: ASA judgement
My sympathy goes out to those of you who still trust in the “authorities” to act with objectivity, drawing on the tenets of truth, fairness and courage at the core of their being. At best, most such bodies are populated by career men who wish to avoid conflict and prefer Strictly Come Dancing to Ultimate Cage Fighting. With the greatest respect may I suggest you are as deluded as, though much better company than, those who see a bright future for the team playing at Ibrox in the colours of Rangers.

But whilst those appointed by faceless suits to protect us from the vile and venal are mincing words and dodging issues, the basic laws of economics and natural selection are quietly at work. No number of bent rules or fudged judgements will keep a flawed business plan from the doors of oblivion. They can merely delay the inevitable. Likewise, nature dictates that no spiv will ever give a sucker an even break while there is still a pound in his pocket.

So if you are looking for natural justice and the demise of the TheRangers and are dismayed by the ASA findings – may I suggest that you may be simply looking in the wrong place and thinking on the wrong timescale.

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Matteo GalyPosted on12:39 pm - Dec 11, 2013


I never understood why anyone would complain to the ASA about a company or club’s false advertising. They all do it!
Does anyone believe, for example, that Irn Bru really is made from girders?!
If Celtic were to advertise that they were Scotland’s most successful club, there is nothing stopping them. After all, with a European Cup win on their honours list, they would make a better candidate than RFC (deceased).
Maybe the fact that they haven’t done so means that they think it’s pretty meaningless.
Sevco’s claims are ridiculous, but the ASA allow a lot worse to carry on, which is why any complaint was always doomed to fail.

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ptd1978Posted on12:48 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Jockybhoy
Are you seriously suggesting we put ScotPlod in a position that their “opinion” can affect the results of Celtic (or any other team’s) matches?
____________________
The police already get to do this. If they refuse to allow a team to play after a certain time. That game can’t go ahead.

I really hope you’re right that last Friday is an exception to their otherwise pretty good behaviour and Celtic’s actions to it have been great.
My point is that there has been discussion about Celtic no longer playing games on a Friday after what happened at Fir Park and I fear that other clubs’ supporters might see the removal of Friday night games as a reward and a position to aspire to.
Any Friday game to or indeed for ICT, Aberdeen or Ross County means a substantial journey, much reduced support for the team. It is crucial that Celtic’s schedule next year has a Friday night game to avoid causing trouble with other supporters who don’t want Friday games either.
I would also think there’s an obvious difference between a game on a school night and a game on a Friday when many more fans can drink much more heavily. In the last two and a half seasons (when Friday night football restarted) the shortest distance a team has had to travel to play the game has been from Edinburgh to Perth. No derbies, no teams even from similar areas, no Celtic or (old) Rangers. I think someone was already concerned about trouble on a Friday night. There is only one left this year and – surprise – Aberdeen get to travel 2 hours to play at Easter Road.
SPFL.co.uk has archives if you want the information of dates and teams.

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Danish PastryPosted on12:48 pm - Dec 11, 2013


m.c.f.c. says: (7)
December 11, 2013 at 12:33 pm
1 0 Rate This
———-

I think you might be right about that @m.c.f.c

I was re-reading an interview with Craig Whyte from October last year.

From his initial meeting with David Murray in Antibes in 2010 (Whyte’s account) he has, in many ways, lived up to his role as the saviour. The huge financial burdens have been cleverly removed and the whole organization has effectively phoenixed, with the tacit approval of all and sundry.

One thing Whyte did mention though was the £10m hole in the accounts:

“What caused Rangers woes was the catastrophic EBT scheme. If it hadn’t been for that the club wouldn’t have been sold for £1 and it would have been able to attract funding to pay the outstanding tax liabilities. The club also had running cost of £10m per year more than income so it was never run as a sustainable business.”

Never run as a sustainable business Mr Ogilvie & Regan, and it still isn’t. That must mean ‘non-sustainable’.

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justbecauseyoureparanoidPosted on12:50 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Matteo Galy says: (45)
December 11, 2013 at 12:39 pm
3 0 Rate This

I never understood why anyone would complain to the ASA about a company or club’s false advertising. They all do it!
Does anyone believe, for example, that Irn Bru really is made from girders?!

Advertising regs have a specific allowance for humorous claims like the Irn Bru one – as no sane person would actually believe it they don’t consider the advert to be misleading.

Hang on a minute, maybe I’m on to something here……………………

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EstebanPosted on12:52 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Matteo Galy says: (45)
December 11, 2013 at 12:39 pm

“People were naive. They used to believe that a product was good just because the company that made it said it was good, and kept on saying so.”

Jorge Luis Borges

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ForresDeePosted on12:52 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Matteo Galy says: (45)
December 11, 2013 at 12:39 pm

I never understood why anyone would complain to the ASA about a company or club’s false advertising. They all do it!
Does anyone believe, for example, that Irn Bru really is made from girders?!

===================

Irn Bru had to change from Iron Brew and dropped the girders adverts for exactly that reason. The same reason the Opal fruits (contained no fruit) are now called Starbursts.

History lesson over.

The ASA stuff should now really belong in the Bonkers OCNC thread.

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rantinrobinPosted on12:57 pm - Dec 11, 2013


The ASA statement is a fudge and something of an irrelevance.
The SFA fudge with all the dissembling involving the wrongful transfer of membership isn’t.

Wrong decision,wrong outcome and wrong staff membership.

SFA = Small-minded Football Association.

‘Probably the best small -minded football association in the world’

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Angus1983Posted on1:00 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Matteo Galy says: (45)
December 11, 2013 at 12:39 pm

If Celtic were to advertise that they were Scotland’s most successful club, there is nothing stopping them. After all, with a European Cup win on their honours list, they would make a better candidate than RFC (deceased).
——
Or at least equally acceptable, even if defined differently.

Having won a single honour which is perceived to be the highest in European club football, I believe it would be fair to describe them as the “most successful Scottish club”.

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Danish PastryPosted on1:17 pm - Dec 11, 2013


A pot of gold?

From The Record:

“The only admission we’ve had from Stockbridge is there is a £50m pot of gold at the end of the rainbow from Blue Pitch Holdings – a company whose directors are still unknown.

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FIFAPosted on1:23 pm - Dec 11, 2013


ptd1978
You are a few San Miguels too late with your suggestion ,TRIFC have just introduced various boards to carry out the suggestion you have just made,I would say lets give this a chance and use it as the role model.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on1:25 pm - Dec 11, 2013


@Danish

To lose one £50m pot of gold may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.

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Tif FinnPosted on1:26 pm - Dec 11, 2013


If you want to look on the demise of Rangers it’s really important the direction you look in, that direction is backwards.

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GeronimosCadillacPosted on1:33 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Tif Finn says: (993)
December 11, 2013 at 1:26 pm

If you want to look on the demise of Rangers it’s really important the direction you look in, that direction is backwards.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yep. One day the true story of how Agent Sir Dave went deep undercover to bring down an almost impregnable instituition using cunning and rubbish business methods will be told

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GeronimosCadillacPosted on1:35 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1786)
December 11, 2013 at 1:17 pm

A pot of gold?

From The Record:

“The only admission we’ve had from Stockbridge is there is a £50m pot of gold at the end of the rainbow from Blue Pitch Holdings – a company whose directors are still unknown.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Another massive MSM fail. Even I know Rainbows have no end.

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bobcobb74Posted on1:38 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Am I the only one that can find no reference to any of this on the ASA website?

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Tif FinnPosted on1:41 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Thing about this AGM, it’s likely to be a load of fans giving the board pelters. However will it be any more than that.

The real business will already have been done and the votes will have been cast. It is likely to be a meaningless exercise simply complying with a legal requirement.

Cast your mind back to the previous club, Donald Muir sat on the board. There was a vote on whether or not he should be re-elected. The room said no, in an overwhelming manner. So they added in the other shareholders’ votes. It transpired that around 90% of the vote actually wanted him re-elected. Quelle Surprise.

Is this going to be any different. Yes there will be an actual meeting and yes representatives of the board will be there, however will any actual decisions be made, or will that already be done and dusted via postal votes or proxies.

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Danish PastryPosted on1:43 pm - Dec 11, 2013


GeronimosCadillac says: (121)
December 11, 2013 at 1:35 pm
4 0 Rate This

Danish Pastry says: (1786)
December 11, 2013 at 1:17 pm

A pot of gold?

From The Record:

“The only admission we’ve had from Stockbridge is there is a £50m pot of gold at the end of the rainbow from Blue Pitch Holdings – a company whose directors are still unknown.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Another massive MSM fail. Even I know Rainbows have no end.
——–

To be fair, they were quoting one of fans groups spokesmen, who was quoting Stockbridge … on rainbows 😆

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/battle-rangers-fan-behind-sons-2913943

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GeronimosCadillacPosted on1:46 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1787)
December 11, 2013 at 1:43 pm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

True enough but 30 seconds on Google would have alerted them to the FACT that Rainbows have no end. They just get lazier and lazier.

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GeronimosCadillacPosted on1:49 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Tif Finn says: (994)
December 11, 2013 at 1:41 pm

Thing about this AGM, it’s likely to be a load of fans giving the board pelters. However will it be any more than that.

The real business will already have been done and the votes will have been cast. It is likely to be a meaningless exercise simply complying with a legal requirement.

Cast your mind back to the previous club, Donald Muir sat on the board. There was a vote on whether or not he should be re-elected. The room said no, in an overwhelming manner. So they added in the other shareholders’ votes. It transpired that around 90% of the vote actually wanted him re-elected. Quelle Surprise.

Is this going to be any different. Yes there will be an actual meeting and yes representatives of the board will be there, however will any actual decisions be made, or will that already be done and dusted via postal votes or proxies.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Democracy will have been seen to be done once the votes have been cast. No decisions will be made other than to approve the accounts and re-elect the spivs. Job done. The new Board don’t like to do their work in full view of the public.

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smartie1947Posted on1:53 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Tic 6709 says: (566)

December 11, 2013 at 11:53 am

26

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In a fresh adjudication, the ASA said it was confident that consumers would understand the claim was in reference to the history of Rangers Football Club, but did accept that that the club’s history was “separate to that of Newco”.
=====================
Well, 54 and died.There will be no 55.
Now i’m away out Christmas shopping, see if I can buy some history.

======================================================

Poundland has some on sale and they are throwing in a football club.

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Tif FinnPosted on1:55 pm - Dec 11, 2013


From the Daily Record article

“For years now the Rangers fans have been labelled as fractious.”

How very true, they still are really.

They are factious as well, but that’s another story.

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Tif FinnPosted on1:59 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Again from the same Daily record article, quoting Mr Houston.

=====================================

“The Sons of Struth have three main aims.

“The first is to keep the stadium in the club’s name, which we believe is vitally important to the financial stability of Rangers.

“The second is to have a clear and clean set of accounts.

“And the last aim is to have a board to be proud of.

==================================

I would have thought a sustainable busness model to secure the clubs future would have been in the top three, however to each their own. Owning the stadium you play in, meeting legal requirements re accounts, and pride in the people who sit on your board are clearly more important if you suffer from Rangersitis.

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GeronimosCadillacPosted on2:02 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Tif Finn says: (996)
December 11, 2013 at 1:59 pm

0

0

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Again from the same Daily record article, quoting Mr Houston.

=====================================

“The Sons of Struth have three main aims.

“The first is to keep the stadium in the club’s name, which we believe is vitally important to the financial stability of Rangers.

“The second is to have a clear and clean set of accounts.

“And the last aim is to have a board to be proud of.

==================================

I would have thought a sustainable busness model to secure the clubs future would have been in the top three, however to each their own. Owning the stadium you play in, meeting legal requirements re accounts, and pride in the people who sit on your board are clearly more important if you suffer from Rangersitis.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Where on the list is the demand for the first team to wear Orange Taps? These guys are pale imitations of Rangers fans if they cannot see what the peepil want.

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rantinrobinPosted on2:13 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Rainbows? Pots of Gold ?

‘Probably the greatest Rangers re-incarnation ever made’ have shares dropping to 37:5 p

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bluPosted on2:24 pm - Dec 11, 2013


bobcobb74 says: (21)
December 11, 2013 at 1:38 pm
Am I the only one that can find no reference to any of this on the ASA website?

Bob, rulings are made availalbe to journalists on Monday each week, hence Angela Haggerty reporting earlier, and published on the ASA website on Wednesdays. Although described as a ruling, this one was initially resolved informally (after complaints in June) and Rangers agreed to change content on their website. I suspect the update may not be a formal ruling either.

Informally Resolved Cases (3)
After consideration by the ASA of complaints received, the following companies and organisations agreed to amend or withdraw advertising without the need for a formal investigation:

Advertiser Date Number of Complaints Media Sector
The Rangers Football Club Ltd 26 June 2013 2 Internet (sales promotion) Leisure

In itself it doesn’t mean much but the quotes from the SFA reported by Angela Haggerty may lead somewhere interesting.

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bryce9aPosted on2:35 pm - Dec 11, 2013


blu says: (474)
December 11, 2013 at 2:24 pm

There were two entirely unrelated ASA cases regarding Rangers.

One was the “most successful club” one, which the ASA have ruled in favour of.

The other was in regard to an internet/email advert referring to some claim about 50 million fans or something absurd. That was hooked, which is what that “informally resolved cases” bit refers to.

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bluPosted on2:41 pm - Dec 11, 2013


bryce9a says: (95)
December 11, 2013 at 2:35 pm
===============================
Thanks bryce, you’re obviously a better source for bobcobb. You’ll have the direct links to the rulings on the ASA site that he asks for?

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bobcobb74Posted on2:48 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Thanks, blu. I had already seen that particular comments but I also know that has been available to view for quite some time now. I don’t doubt Ms Haggerty; I just find myself wondering about the…oddness of the whole process. And the vagueness of the “official” statements. My main gripe throughout this whole saga has been the actions of the SFA and the lack of accountability therein. So I’ll leave it there as I really dont want to re-ignite the OC/NC debate on this thread.

I’m a very, very occassional poster on this site (as I was on RTC) although I am an avid reader and I find myself continually staggered by the level of forensic analysis – both financial and legal – on this site.

(ps For what it’s worth, I’m an accountant working in an office with lots of other accountants. The general consensus among us is that the OC/NC debate will become even more irrelevant as events unfold in the weeks to come.)

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bryce9aPosted on2:50 pm - Dec 11, 2013


blu says: (475)
December 11, 2013 at 2:41 pm

Thanks bryce, you’re obviously a better source for bobcobb. You’ll have the direct links to the rulings on the ASA site that he asks for?
+++++++++++++++++
Can’t find either on that site at the moment.

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Gym TrainerPosted on3:26 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Perhaps these alluded to pots of gold are off the radar? (Given the lack of a rainbow’s end, it would be out of radar range…)

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AllyjamboPosted on3:59 pm - Dec 11, 2013


I’ve been expecting an uprising of bears condemning, threatening retribution and closing accounts at Lloyds TSB since the announcement of the settlement between the bank and Kilmarnock (though I’m not sure it’s a done deal yet). After all, they have been blaming said bank to a far, far greater level than they have done the man who took their club to deaths door; just because they wanted their money back. I wonder, too, why David Murray and the rest of RFC’s second last board haven’t been making noises either. Why didn’t Lloyds strike a similar deal with the world’s most successful football club?

I have a few theories why Murray didn’t seek such a deal, and why Lloyds TSB didn’t offer it. In no order of most likely, they are:

a) David Murray’s ego wouldn’t allow him to be seen as unable to shore up Rangers.
b) MIH board wouldn’t allow him to highlight the troubles they were in.
c) By allowing so much of the RFC debt to be shipped to MIH already, where it would remain unsettled, Lloyds considered they’d already fulfilled the ‘community gesture’ that they no doubt see the Killie deal as, in part, being.
d) Lloyds knew a far greater disaster (EBTs) was just around the corner and wanted to rid themselves of all connection with a high visibility, toxic company.
e) Murray just wanted out before the EBTs hit and he didn’t want Lloyds TSB making an offer he couldn’t refuse!
f-z) Any combination of the above and quite a few more that the people at Rangers, at the time, wouldn’t want in the public domain.

In the meantime the bears don’t raise a stink because:

a) They need a leader banging a drum before they’ll act.
b) David Murray still has clout with their leaders and so no one is banging the drum.
c) No one has thought about it yet.
d) Everyone, including the ex directors, do not want to create a situation whereby Lloyds must defend their actions in public! (within the rules of confidentiality, of course)

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on4:12 pm - Dec 11, 2013


@Allyjambo
Brilliant post.
Chapeau

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FIFAPosted on4:14 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Gym Trainer
I know its been a while but lest we forget ,all wealth associated with said club has always been off the radar,aplogies as I forget who is the author of said phrase.

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paulsatimPosted on4:52 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Allyjambo says: (709)
December 11, 2013 at 3:59 pm

In. A. Nutshell.

SUPERB!!!

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paulsatimPosted on4:54 pm - Dec 11, 2013


bobcobb74 says: (22)
December 11, 2013 at 2:48 pm
(ps For what it’s worth, I’m an accountant working in an office with lots of other accountants. The general consensus among us is that the OC/NC debate will become even more irrelevant as events unfold in the weeks to come.)
====================================
Will it then become an OC/NC/Third Rangers debate?

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AllyjamboPosted on5:00 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Phil and paulsatim, thanks for the acknowledgements. I had something in my head as I’ve been expecting an outpouring of rage, but wasn’t sure I could get it across properly. Seems that I did 🙂

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wottpiPosted on5:03 pm - Dec 11, 2013


For share watchers – not a lot of volume but we are now down to 37p.

36 point something tomorrow?

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ptd1978Posted on5:11 pm - Dec 11, 2013


FIFA
———–
Good point, but I’m suggesting the gamekeepers reorganise like that not the poachers.

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valentinesclownPosted on5:16 pm - Dec 11, 2013


From Rangers official website
THE Advertising Standards Authority will later this month confirm it has ruled in favour of Rangers Football Club in its investigation into a recent advertising campaign.

The ASA received complaints regarding a series of adverts featuring the slogan “Scotland’s most successful club”.
The advertising watchdog did not uphold those complaints and although they opened a new investigation after their decision was appealed, the Club has been informed that their original decision stands.
The ASA backs a number of other high profile organisations in recognising the long and rich history which the Club enjoys.
Their ruling will follow similar recognition, from the game’s governing bodies and a series of independent panels, of the Club’s long and continued success which has seen a haul of 115 major honours in a 141-year history

———————————————————————————

The fans of Sevco think they are still the same team, nothing has changed in their opinion. Still play in blue still at Govan, can still sing what they want still the same name . In their deluded minds will be back in PL and challenging in the CL very shortly. Arrogance fueled by inaction of SFA and MSM who feed then only what they want to here, as individual reasoning and ability to decide themselves is beyond them ( or maybe the thought of their real plight and future will spoil their Christmas and years beyond).
All of the above is used by the spivs to make money from them, every new group of spivs get an early Christmas thanks to the WATP attitude of the Govan club fans. History is everything to football fans and they are it seems above all in society. History of Govan club means absolutely nothing to spivs and history will prove that.
As spivs money is all, the Govan team means money, not loyalty, not future trophies. When financial reality strikes Sevco again the spivs will walk away crying, crying that they cannot make any more money from this carcass, but onto the next easy money adventure with pockets bulging (but this one will take some beating, easy money beyond belief).
What will plan B be for the Sevco fans if at the AGM the current board prevails and NO Surrender Murray, I cut Rangers debt P Murray (from the old board) no laughing and I am not spending money in Rangers McColl fail . The answer my Sevco friends is with the DR. Unless you wake up and try save your club yourselves. What are the odds for a Whyte Christmas?.

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martin cPosted on5:21 pm - Dec 11, 2013


wottpi says: (1316)
December 11, 2013 at 5:03 pm
1 0 Rate This

For share watchers – not a lot of volume but we are now down to 37p.

36 point something tomorrow?

=================================================================================

Speaks volumes in that less than a year the club has halved in value and my prediction is that as in the new year it will be about 10p a share (mid feb).

The shorters will be out in force!

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m.c.f.c.Posted on5:23 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Will the UTT outcome be another false dawn for those awaiting natural justice? I ask because it would seem that HMRC have the precedent they need in the Aberdeen Asset Management case and the RFC UTT judgement will be nice confirmation is respect of football clubs – but far from essential in order to fry bigger fish.

In practical terms, there’s no money to recover from RFC (IL) and much of it went to foreign nationals now long gone. If HMRC do pursue individuals, confidentiality will ensure that the only clues we may get are a few personal bankruptcies. SMSM and MH will surely dismiss it as a technical travesty besmirching the portion of the old clumpany history that Charles Green didn’t buy. The SFA and SPFL will see no reason to re-visit LNS and so another shameful episode will slip unnoticed into history for future generations to explore only when the participants are beyond reach.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

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ptd1978Posted on5:25 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Allyjambo. Cracking post!

There’s another couple of possibilities. Maybe Murray was offered such a deal and either declined due to knowledge of EBTs.
Maybe Lloyds realised that with any deal for only Rangers, Murray would just take cash out of MIH and pay them with their own money, so it could only ever be all or nothing.
Maybe they can just see a potentially workable business model at Kilmarnock, but not at Rangers.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on5:42 pm - Dec 11, 2013


BDO and Nelson Mandela

The passing of Nelson Mandela prompted me to re-read Joel Carlsons’s excellent No Neutral Ground. As a young white lawyer defending blacks against the apartheid regime he felt the full force of a mendacious, quixotic and cruel establishment. The pertinent incident for me was when his third floor office was raked with machine gun fire from a building across the street in broad daylight. He and several staff avoided injury by pure good fortune. He reported the incident and the Police duly arrived to diligently search the street below for shell casings. Finding nothing, they filed their report that there was no evidence of the incident and so it required no further investigation. The obvious evidence of the bullet riddled office and the possibility of numerous eye witnesses did not impinge upon the official account. I offer this as a metaphor for BDO’s long awaited report, its likely revelations and the dramatic meting out of justice that will follow.

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Galling fiverPosted on6:17 pm - Dec 11, 2013


MCFC . Cracking point about AAM precedent, will that mean it will also be easier to proceed against thems? Where have you been all this time, some very good input.

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ForresDeePosted on6:20 pm - Dec 11, 2013


m.c.f.c. says: (10)
December 11, 2013 at 5:42 pm

BDO and Nelson Mandela
…..
… I offer this as a metaphor for BDO’s long awaited report, its likely revelations and the dramatic meting out of justice that will follow.

=================

Those waiting for justice from BDO are deluding themselves, BDO are only interested in prolonging the agony and to maximise fees for themselves.

I’ve said it before, the only thing that will kill Sevco is the inability to control it’s spending.

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Tic 6709Posted on6:31 pm - Dec 11, 2013


valentinesclown @ 5.16pm.
‘What are the odds for a Whyte Christmas?.’
===================
You must be right,even the shares are heading south.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on6:31 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Galling fiver says: (55)
December 11, 2013 at 6:17 pm

thanks for the kind words – I’ve been studying at the feet of the late and sadly missed Paul McConville over on Random Thoughts – but i’ve always been an avid reader here.

A UTT win for HMRC will open the door for them to pursue individuals EBTers and possibly directors for dodgy deeds – but I can’t see that impacting the TheRangers story any time soon – if at all.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on6:32 pm - Dec 11, 2013


@Allyjambo

😉

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m.c.f.c.Posted on6:36 pm - Dec 11, 2013


ForresDee says: (136)
December 11, 2013 at 6:20 pm

I’ve said it before, the only thing that will kill Sevco is the inability to control it’s spending.

==================================================================
ForresDee

Keep saying it – because the Bears don’t know any other way and they are destined to repeat their mistakes of the past – accelerated by an infestation of spivs.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on7:08 pm - Dec 11, 2013


@m.c.f.c.
@ForresDee

There is clearly something cultural going on at Ibrox that I don’t get.
In the absence of a Sugar Daddy showering them with love and cash they must cut costs or face the prospect of insolvency.
A controlled Administration (controlled by the incumbent regime) would allow them to chainsaw costs and strengthen their grip on the clumpany through a debt for equity swap.
It’s the smart move in 2014.
First though they have to swat away the requisitioners.

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Exiled CeltPosted on7:10 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Understand that this is a Scottish Football forum and so slightly OT, but it appears on Twitterland a lot of trouble at Milan v Ajax in the streets before the game. Seems a common thread here!

Tancredi Palmeri ‏@tancredipalmeri 3m
Around 100 Ajax fans taken under police control. Reports that the 3 stabbing have been organized as revenge for today’s assault

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Flocculent ApoideaPosted on7:31 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Tif Finn says: (996)
December 11, 2013 at 1:55 pm

From the Daily Record article
“For years now the Rangers fans have been labelled as fractious.”

How very true, they still are really.
They are factious as well, but that’s another story.

About 500 million of them are fictitious. Is that what they meant?

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paulonotiniPosted on7:43 pm - Dec 11, 2013


BDO(Cohen) on behalf of RFC 2012 plc & Others v Collyer Bristow in Chancery Division Courts tomorrow

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/court-lists/list-chancery-judges

COURT 26
Before MR JUSTICE NEWEY
Thursday, 12 December 2013
At half past 11
GENERAL LIST
2003 of 2012 Cohen & anr v Collyer Bristow LLP & ors
INTERIM HEARINGS LIST
HC12E01526 RFC 2012 Plc v Collyer Bristow LLP & anr
Same v Same
Same v Same
Same v Same
Same v Same

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Tif FinnPosted on7:54 pm - Dec 11, 2013


http://www.ftadviser.com/2013/10/30/regulation/regulators/aberdeen-am-tax-avoiding-bonus-scheme-shut-by-hmrc-YooLt3n4xEFcu5FByr1sWO/article.html

The Scottish Court of Session last week backed HM Revenue and Customs’ argument that pay as you earn (PAYE) and NICs should be paid on the bonuses, which were converted into shares under the complex scheme.

===================================================

That is too fundamental a difference to the Rangers case to mean that HMRC will not see the Rangers case through to the end and get a precedent set.

As I understand it Rangers paid the money into the sub trust, the sub trust then made “loans” to the players. That was cash loans not shares.

In addition, were the bonuses contractual or discretionary for AAM.

On the “loans” received, those could always be converted to payments, by the recipient paying the proper tax and NIC. If it is ruled they were not loans then HMRC may chase the player / manager / coach. They are not all foreign based as some people seem to think.

Alex McLeish – £1.7m – side letter seen

Barry Ferguson – £2.5m – side letter seen

Nach Novo – £1.2m – side letter seen

etc.

That is to say nothing of action eventually being taken to recover money from the individuals behind this.

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Tif FinnPosted on8:03 pm - Dec 11, 2013


And also.

Rangers are in liquidation, their holding company at the time the EBTs were running (and whose EBT scheme and foreign trust it was) is not.

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killiemadPosted on8:25 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Allyjambo says: (710)

December 11, 2013 at 3:59 pm

I think there is a fundamental difference in the Killie and Rangers cases regarding their treatment by banks. I often recall Alastair Johnston, often regarded as the “decent” face of Rangers, saying to the BBC that he felt his hands were tied in dealing with the bank because the bank had placed a man on the board. This struck me then, and continues to strike me as implicit that they were not minded to deal openly and honestly with the bank.

Michael Johnston, for all his faults in dealing with his customers, maintains an excellent relationship with his bankers. this is evidenced by the fact that virtually the entire League Cup winning squad of less than two years ago has gone and the wage bill slashed.

I suggest that Lloyds TSB’s “kinder” dealings with Kilmarnock if this comes to pass, has come about through some trust between the parties which I strongly suspect was missing at Ibrox.

As a footnote, I think you are spot on regarding the rangers support waiting to be led by some benefactor authorising their outrage.

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briggsbhoyPosted on8:39 pm - Dec 11, 2013


killiemad says: (62)
December 11, 2013 at 8:25 pm
“I suggest that Lloyds TSB’s “kinder” dealings with Kilmarnock if this comes to pass, has come about through some trust between the parties which I strongly suspect was missing at Ibrox.”

A good point, all comes down to trust and respect.

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Tif FinnPosted on8:39 pm - Dec 11, 2013


The fundamental difference between Rangers and Kilmarnock is that Rangers was effectively owned by a holding company.

That holding company at one point owed Lloyds the best part of £1,000,000,000 but there was a debt for equity swap. They reduced it down to a much more manageable £750,000,000 pounds.

I do not think Lloyds saw or treated Rangers as a separate entity in and of itself. It was just a tiny part of a massive problem.

When they were offered a way to clear all of Rangers debt they must have bee laughing all the way to the …

Oh and that’s without even considering the fact that Rangers already had arrestments put in place by HMRC, owed HMRC around £14m with the potential for tens of millions more, had loads of other creditors etc.

The Rangers and Kilmarnock situations are not analogous, no matter how many Rangers fans may want to think they are.

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essexbeancounterPosted on8:46 pm - Dec 11, 2013


Allyjambo says: (710)

I have a few theories why Murray didn’t seek such a deal, and why Lloyds TSB didn’t offer it. In no order of most likely, they are:
=================================================================================
Allyjambo….superb, succinct post, fully deserving the accolades and TUs accorded to it.

I have two questions, however:
1) Where were you when I was a CA apprentice?…based on your post, I would have learnt so much more in this area
2) On the basis of your probing questions, effectively into the mindset of David Murray, all as yet unanswered, would you please apply the same rigorous examination into the mindset of my fellow (supposedly!) CA, Paul Murray…aka one of the “requisitioners” at the forthcoming RIFC AGM?
From what is left of my diminishing intellect, I simply cannot fathom his motivation(s).

…or as my old mate Terry Wogan would say…”….is it me…?”

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