Past the Event Horizon

On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.

The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.

I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.

There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.

That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.

That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.

Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.

The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.

The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.

If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.

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John Cole

About Big Pink

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

3,926 thoughts on “Past the Event Horizon


  1. It will turn out that PL has a third cousin removed who had a pint with a bloke who new the main man at Lloyd’s TSB and so it was a Timmy conspiracy that did the deal for Killie. πŸ˜†


  2. PhilMacGiollaBhain says: (186)
    December 11, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    @m.c.f.c.
    @ForresDee

    There is clearly something cultural going on at Ibrox that I don’t get.
    In the absence of a Sugar Daddy showering them with love and cash they must cut costs or face the prospect of insolvency.
    A controlled Administration (controlled by the incumbent regime) would allow them to chainsaw costs and strengthen their grip on the clumpany through a debt for equity swap.
    It’s the smart move in 2014.
    First though they have to swat away the requisitioners.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I’m confused by the reference to debt. I was under the impression they had the world record breaking lowest level of debt since records began.


  3. briggsbhoy says: (764)

    December 11, 2013 at 8:47 pm
    It will turn out that PL has a third cousin removed who had a pint with a bloke who new the main man at Lloyd’s TSB and so it was a Timmy conspiracy that did the deal for Killie. πŸ˜†
    ==============================================================================
    Briggsbhoy….more relevant is how a relatively small provincial solicitor, but “majority/controlling” shareholder, Michael Johnston, IIRC, can negotiate such a deal.
    Naturally, the intimate details of the “re-negotiation” process will never be revealed, which as ever leads to so many more unanswered questions….!

    Tin hat(s) on….!


  4. killiemad says: (62)

    December 11, 2013 at 8:25 pm

    The point you make is more or less what I was leaving to others to consider. Clearly Killie, while getting into a disastrous financial mess (not the only ones), have clearly done so in the full view of the bank, and with the bank’s blessing, without hiding anything from HMRC or anyone else they owe honesty to. I’d hazard a guess that Lloyds TSB would have been open to a similar debt write-off with Rangers if they were as sure everything was as above board at Ibrox as at Rugby Park. While hiding the true nature of the EBT scheme from the SFA they will have done the same, officially at least, to Bank of Scotland, with only a select few, or maybe just one, but probably none, of the Bank’s hierarchy aware that something might be amiss. I am sure David Murray, and all the rest of those involved with him at Ibrox, will be fully aware of why the option did not exist for Rangers. The supporters won’t be, though, but hopefully one day they will realise that a man reviled by so many at Kilmarnock, Michael Johnston, has pulled off something that will save his club, while David Murray, their god, failed spectacularly to do the same for them. Maybe they will ask why? Probably they won’t!


  5. Essex, Johnston obviously spoke to PL who spoke to the bank on his behalf surely πŸ˜† On a more serious note, yes you are correct.


  6. Celts getting humped tonight, just goes to show that the great form in past two games domestically means he haw. It should be more about how poor competition is in the SPL. I reckon they would have gone into the game heads down knowing it was a pointless game.


  7. essexbeancounter says: (331)

    December 11, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    Hi Essex πŸ˜€

    1) Where were you when I was a CA apprentice?…based on your post, I would have learnt so much more in this area? Answer: probably making a pigs ear of a career in banking 😯

    2) On the basis of your probing questions, effectively into the mindset of David Murray, all as yet unanswered, would you please apply the same rigorous examination into the mindset of my fellow (supposedly!) CA, Paul Murray…aka one of the β€œrequisitioners” at the forthcoming RIFC AGM?
    From what is left of my diminishing intellect, I simply cannot fathom his motivation(s). Answer: Come on geeze a brek! The name’s Allyjambo, not Sigmund Freud! But I would suggest the man has the mindset of a bear, with ambitions to be the monkey that finally writes all the works of Shakespeare – using 500million typewriters πŸ™‚


  8. briggsbhoy says: (766)
    December 11, 2013 at 9:18 pm

    Celts getting humped tonight, just goes to show that the great form in past two games domestically means he haw.
    ——
    I don’t think so. It means Celtic played very well in their last two games, whilst handing out hidings to the teams they played. Wouldn’t surprise me if they play very well in their next one, too.

    I’m sure it won’t – and shouldn’t – do Celtic and their fans any harm to be on the receiving rather than the giving end of an utter doing for a change.


  9. Let me be the 1st to say it….before it is the back page headline in every rag tomorrow

    CELTIC NEED A STRONG SEVCO

    Clearly!!


  10. Allyjambo says: (712)

    December 11, 2013 at 9:22 pm

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    essexbeancounter says: (331)

    December 11, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    Hi Essex πŸ˜€
    =====================================================================
    AJ….you so underestimate yourself…!
    Enjoying your post/riposte/reposte…so typical of the quality contributions on this glorious blog!


  11. briggsbhoy says: (766)

    December 11, 2013 at 9:11 pm

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    Essex, Johnston obviously spoke to PL who spoke to the bank on his behalf surely πŸ˜† On a more serious note, yes you are correct.
    ===========================================================================
    Briggsbhoy…your “conspiracy theories” really require some further rigorous examination in the Crow Tavern, but not tonight!


  12. The ASA decision notice today, UEFA and the SFA’s parts in this are clearly no surprise but does it not just hammer home how much contempt they treat the majority of Scottish football fans with. The truth plays no part in anything going on. Mr Regan’s civil unrest statement really echoes down the weeks and months now. What a clever play by the establishment. Its not what the ASA have said that bothers me, or the SFA. Its just at times the full picture is revealed as they change the scenery between the acts yet to be played out. I don’t think i want to know about any of this anymore. It is their ball. We are here at their sufferance, we should be grateful. I’m out.


  13. Tif Finn says: (999)

    The fundamental difference between Rangers and Kilmarnock is that Rangers was effectively owned by a holding company.
    ===========================================================================
    Tif…your post is perfectly lucid and clear, but to someone who really should know better and who won a prize (no laughing at the back!) in his CA exams many moons ago, I simply cannot grasp the concept of the holding company/subsidiary company in this scenario.
    My understanding of group accounts, please no laughing at the back, precludes all the nonsense/omnishambles/spiverry I have observed since the IPO became reality.
    Perhaps I should write to that nice Mr Stockbridge and ask him for an explanation, in words of one syllable which I can understand.


  14. essexbeancounter says: (334)
    December 11, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    Definitely not the Crow tonight, up at 5am tomorrow, nae drink fir me. πŸ˜†


  15. briggsbhoy says: (767)

    Definitely not the Crow tonight, up at 5am tomorrow, nae drink fir me. πŸ˜†
    =============================================================================
    Nite nite then!

    Sorry fellow bloggers…no more OT comments!


  16. Angus1983 says: (1287)
    December 11, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    It will give the team a sense of reality I suppose and appreciate the feeling of utter deflation.


  17. Squiggle says: (127)
    December 11, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    Don’t be daft. Stay and fight ‘The Establishment’

    “There’s no reason for the establishment to fear me. But it has every right to fear the people collectively – I am one with the people.”


  18. Without wishing to be placed ‘on the naughty step’ for referring to old / new Rangers…

    I’m quite comfortable now with either opinion on whether the Govan club is almost 2 years old – or 141 years old.

    In the great scheme of things it’s arguably irrelevant.

    It’s a club that is ‘absolutely’ financially b*ggered for the long-term.

    And any claimed list of ‘top’ honours is essentially frozen in time – IMO.


  19. Can I just point out that Celtic fielded the company tonight……….so that didn’t just happen. 😎


  20. m.c.f.c. says: (12)

    December 11, 2013 at 5:23 pm

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    Will the UTT outcome be another false dawn for those awaiting natural justice? I ask because it would seem that HMRC have the precedent they need in the Aberdeen Asset Management case and the RFC UTT judgement will be nice confirmation is respect of football clubs – but far from essential in order to fry bigger fish.

    In practical terms, there’s no money to recover from RFC (IL) and much of it went to foreign nationals now long gone. If HMRC do pursue individuals, confidentiality will ensure that the only clues we may get are a few personal bankruptcies. SMSM and MH will surely dismiss it as a technical travesty besmirching the portion of the old clumpany history that Charles Green didn’t buy. The SFA and SPFL will see no reason to re-visit LNS and so another shameful episode will slip unnoticed into history for future generations to explore only when the participants are beyond reach.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    LNS was misled by Rangers Administrators and Campbell Ogilvie.

    The evidence is inarguable. In fact LNS admonished Rangers Administrators for doing it.

    Thing is no one knew what had been withheld, but we do now and it suggests that not only did Rangers embark on a risky policy, they did so knowingly and deliberately. In fact their QC told them not to appeal it was so obvious.

    LNS was already questionable, what it did not cover because it was misled, will render it invalid.


  21. Galling fiver says: (56)

    December 11, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    It wasn’t the holding company though. We couldn’t hold the ball for more than a minute. πŸ™‚


  22. PhilMacGiollaBhain says: (186)
    December 11, 2013 at 7:08 pm
    21 2 Rate This

    @m.c.f.c.
    @ForresDee

    There is clearly something cultural going on at Ibrox that I don’t get

    ——————————————————————————————–

    Phil

    My instinct is that the shareholders have an abject fear that the fans will wake up and think for themselves unless there is a constant stream of good news. We saw Green testing the boundaries with incredulity but the spivs probably don,t have the balls for that. Like us they are at a loss to fully understand the bear thought process so the only safe approach is massive overspending to maintain the lazarus levitation illusion. Of course this can,t be maintained indefinitely but promotion to tier two and the next ST sale represent a clear watershed and another milestone away from the scene of the crime with sufficient PR fog obscuring the view back. The next challenge for the spivs is to more accurately calibrate the gullibility of the mob to maximise the cash extraction potential. The ultimate destination is clear but the exact entertainment value of the steps along the way remain as exquisitely intriguing as ever.


  23. Allyjambo says: (712)
    December 11, 2013 at 3:59 pm
    126 0 Rate This

    I’ve been expecting an uprising of bears condemning, threatening retribution and closing accounts at Lloyds TSB since the announcement of the settlement between the bank and Kilmarnock (though I’m not sure it’s a done deal yet). After all, they have been blaming said bank to a far, far greater level than they have done the man who took their club to deaths door; just because they wanted their money back. I wonder, too, why David Murray and the rest of RFC’s second last board haven’t been making noises either. Why didn’t Lloyds strike a similar deal with the world’s most successful football club?

    I have a few theories why Murray didn’t seek such a deal, and why Lloyds TSB didn’t offer it. In no order of most likely, they are:

    a) David Murray’s ego wouldn’t allow him to be seen as unable to shore up Rangers.
    b) MIH board wouldn’t allow him to highlight the troubles they were in.
    c) By allowing so much of the RFC debt to be shipped to MIH already, where it would remain unsettled, Lloyds considered they’d already fulfilled the β€˜community gesture’ that they no doubt see the Killie deal as, in part, being.
    d) Lloyds knew a far greater disaster (EBTs) was just around the corner and wanted to rid themselves of all connection with a high visibility, toxic company.
    e) Murray just wanted out before the EBTs hit and he didn’t want Lloyds TSB making an offer he couldn’t refuse!
    f-z) Any combination of the above and quite a few more that the people at Rangers, at the time, wouldn’t want in the public domain.

    In the meantime the bears don’t raise a stink because:

    a) They need a leader banging a drum before they’ll act.
    b) David Murray still has clout with their leaders and so no one is banging the drum.
    c) No one has thought about it yet.
    d) Everyone, including the ex directors, do not want to create a situation whereby Lloyds must defend their actions in public! (within the rules of confidentiality, of course)

    Very good post allyjambo!

    I may be so bold with an observation following on from the sunday post and killiemad bringing this subject up.

    That is that no-one knows what the deal is between lloyds bank and kilmarnock FC.

    In particular a concern that the Park Hotel may well leave Kilmarnock FC as part of the deal. I believe the Park Hotel runs as at a profit.

    So in comparison to RFC(IL) what asset worth a sizable proportion of the debt was available?

    And I think the only answer was Ibrox itself!! SDM had already sold off everything else!

    Only a thought, need to see the full details of the deal proposed.

    Buddy


  24. Auldheid says: (1089)
    December 11, 2013 at 11:09 pm
    4 0 Rate This
    ——————–
    Auldheid

    I can,t disagree but the SFA has bet the farm on restoring the status quo and have lost on every front. TRFC who ought to be the grateful establishment club restored to the fold is now a spiv riddled mutant that they cannot predict let alone call upon to play the dutiful brother. They have exposed themselves to simple logical attack as a weak and corrupt old boys club. They make Gerald Ratner and Bernie Madoff look like masters of the universe. The last thing on earth they will do now is revisit their previous actions such as LNS. Their only choice is to push forward with all the smoke and mirrors they can muster – nothing to see here – move along.


  25. m.c.f.c. says: (15)

    December 11, 2013 at 11:46 pm

    Of course they will. So lets create a gale to blow it away. Contact me via PM


  26. As the sevco board prepare to close out the rebels, thereby avoiding nasty questions about money, jack has stepped up the propaganda war with his poodles. Stockbridge has variously, agreed, been forced or volunteered to ‘give back’ a Β£200 000 contractual bonus.
    Imagine how awash with cash sevco could be if only those who took loans out of the holding company, before it liquidated, decided to pay them back. After all, unlike the terminator, did they not understand that they were getting a loan?


  27. Auldheid,

    I’m prepared to accept that there may be info sufficient to show that LNS was a deliberate crock of sh*t and there are those in the SFA who were complicit in covering up/enabling.

    But, when we have a compliant media and possibly even compliance other in loftier positions.

    Just who do you expect to pull the trigger on this and what do you think will be the outcome?


  28. I regret to say that the distaff side required to be in Glasgow this morning, which requirement necessarily involved me.

    I did not make it to Court as I had hoped to do, even though it was only a procedural hearing and nothing of substance would have been discussed.

    I hope to do better when the proper hearings take place.

    Separately, what with ASA and BBC Complaints responses, I am reminded of a chap called Lot, who kept bargaining to save a city from destruction if he could find a handful of honest men in the city.

    He could not find as many as ten.

    We should be so lucky to find as many as one, when it comes to looking for honest men squaring up to the bastard club and the sulphurous reek of corruption emanating from the unjust Football Authorities, lying Press and BBC men, and other venal purveyors and propagators of the Big Lie.

    Pass the salt, please.


  29. Angus1983 says: (1287)
    December 11, 2013 at 9:42 pm
    46 3 Rate This

    briggsbhoy says: (766)
    December 11, 2013 at 9:18 pm

    Celts getting humped tonight, just goes to show that the great form in past two games domestically means he haw.
    β€”β€”
    I don’t think so. It means Celtic played very well in their last two games, whilst handing out hidings to the teams they played. Wouldn’t surprise me if they play very well in their next one, too.

    I’m sure it won’t – and shouldn’t – do Celtic and their fans any harm to be on the receiving rather than the giving end of an utter doing for a change.
    ===================================================
    What it means is they are way ahead domestically and woefully short at CL level. While getting beat in the Camp Nou in itself is no disgrace, it is by a margin I don’t think anyone really expected, and it hurts. It will mean yet another few days of the media kicking the club at every turn and will be made out to be the worst disaster possible, but in reality it changes little in the great scheme of things. There will almost certainly be another crack at the CL next season, although qualifiers may yet prove prohibitive. Lennon knows recruitment between now and then needs to be better than this season.

    On a wider note Armageddon will continue on Saturday as yet another healthy away support rolls into Celtic Park – I’m expecting HIbs to bring about 2,000. It is noticeable just how increased in numbers the away support has been every game. The recent game against Aberdeen being a case in point. On the 21st I expect to see a sizeable number of Jambos arrive, despite the early kick off and Christmas distractions.

    Going back to Celtic’s Barca defeat the media may stop portraying it as the end of Celtic as we know it just in time for the Ibrox AGM. Then we may see what a club in trouble really is!


  30. The most significant aspect of the ASA ruling as reported is the SFA comment on the same membership being transferred. This is simply a breach of the stated rule that Membership is non- transferrable to a separate legal entity. It is thus crystal clear that the 5 way agreement acknowledged RFC and Sevco as two legal entities. The decision to transfer membership was thus ultra vires. The SFA board here is in breach of its own rules. They have the audacity to employ a compliance officer while they fail to comply with their own articles of association. Corrupt to the point of illegitimate I am afraid.


  31. paulonotini says: (48)
    December 11, 2013 at 7:43 pm
    15 1 Rate This

    BDO(Cohen) on behalf of RFC 2012 plc & Others v Collyer Bristow in Chancery Division Courts tomorrow

    http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/court-lists/list-chancery-judges

    COURT 26
    Before MR JUSTICE NEWEY
    Thursday, 12 December 2013
    At half past 11
    GENERAL LIST
    2003 of 2012 Cohen & anr v Collyer Bristow LLP & ors
    INTERIM HEARINGS LIST
    HC12E01526 RFC 2012 Plc v Collyer Bristow LLP & anr
    Same v Same
    Same v Same
    Same v Same
    Same v Same
    ————-

    Morning all,
    Is the above another day in court to arrange yet another day in court, as the fees increase? Or will something significant be discussed?

    Any legal eagles in the know?


  32. Another day another SSN Jim White exclusive with a rebel, sorry requisitioner

    Coming up Jim goes for a walk in the park with wavy haired Paul Murray

    He thinks Chuck & Craig are still involved, last throw of the dice pre AGM


  33. RIFC shares taking a battering today – down 3p / 8% so far. Is there something in the wind?


  34. beatipacificiscotia says: (205)
    December 12, 2013 at 8:36 am

    more sellers than buyers…………………….Alistair????????


  35. beatipacificiscotia says: (205)

    December 12, 2013 at 8:36 am

    RIFC shares taking a battering today – down 3p / 8% so far. Is there something in the wind?
    ________________________________-

    Looks like Auldheid’s got his gale together to blow away the smoke. Now all we need to do is crack the mirrors πŸ˜† Or turn them towards the SFA!


  36. beatipacificiscotia says: (205)
    December 12, 2013 at 8:36 am
    5 0 Rate This

    RIFC shares taking a battering today – down 3p / 8% so far. Is there something in the wind?
    ==================================
    Many posters who are financially and legally savvy have opined an insolvency event prior to the AGM might be a good move. At the end of the day I know nothing except my team lost six goals last night for the first time since Killie took six off them in the 60’s. Incidentally the Celtic Manager was Jock Stein and several future Lisbon Lions played. Killie were a right good team them as well. Were they reigning champions? I can’t remember much about it as I was still in nappies!


  37. iceman63 says: (311)
    December 12, 2013 at 7:28 am
    56 0 Rate This

    The most significant aspect of the ASA ruling as reported is the SFA comment on the same membership being transferred. This is simply a breach of the stated rule that Membership is non- transferrable to a separate legal entity. It is thus crystal clear that the 5 way agreement acknowledged RFC and Sevco as two legal entities. The decision to transfer membership was thus ultra vires. The SFA board here is in breach of its own rules. They have the audacity to employ a compliance officer while they fail to comply with their own articles of association. Corrupt to the point of illegitimate I am afraid.
    _____________________________________
    It may be what people want to believe, but that is incorrect, I’m afraid. The rule which forbids transfers of membership is qualified by the following rule, which gives the SFA Board absolute discretion to transfer membership between legal entities. I’m away from my vast collection of documents right now, but I will post the relevant rules in full later.

    This subject was discussed on here extensively a while back, involving Ecobhoy and Auldheid from memory, and their conclusion was that the SFA had the power to transfer a membership within the rules..


  38. Just watched that interview, sorry, PR exercise, where Jim Whyte gave Paul Murray a real grilling on SSN, by asking the questions Murray wanted to answer.

    So Murray thinks Green and Whyte might still be behind the board! I wonder where he read that?

    Another pre-AGM opportunity to put forward their plans to make TRFC financially viable lost! It’s almost as if they don’t have any financial strategy in mind, or even believe one is required. I bet they’d sh1t themselves if they actually get into the Ibrox boardroom πŸ˜•


  39. Other than reading his blog I didn’t know the Paul McConville or his family but my thoughts are with them this morning as his funeral will be underway.

    Funny how the web can connect you with people in ways you wouldn’t have thought possible when many of us were just wee lads.


  40. ptd1978 says: (112)
    December 11, 2013 at 12:48 pm
    ____________________
    My point is that there has been discussion about Celtic no longer playing games on a Friday after what happened at Fir Park and I fear that other clubs’ supporters might see the removal of Friday night games as a reward and a position to aspire to.
    ____________________

    I get where you’re coming from but I’m pretty sure you give the brain donors responsible for this type of behaviour too much credit in terms of IQ whatever the team


  41. Allyjambo says: (714)
    December 12, 2013 at 9:45 am

    I bet they’d sh1t themselves if they actually get into the Ibrox boardroom
    ====================

    Oh no. High fives all the way up the marble stairs. Its when they see the pile of red letters, the January VAT report and the bank statement, that’s when the butterflies start. And then there’s that funny lawyers letter. Something to do with conveyance??? It’ll be like holding in water in a sieve.

    Never mind, at least there’s a queue of clubs waiting to buy the playing staff by matching their wages…..anyone….anyone at all?


  42. Lots of activity on AIM today

    Somebody getting the jitters – making sure they don’t wait ’til the last minute, incase their internet connection
    Is ”sabotaged” ?

    n’est–ce pas?


  43. beatipacificiscotia says: (205)
    December 12, 2013 at 8:36 am

    RIFC shares taking a battering today – down 3p / 8% so far. Is there something in the wind?
    ——
    New low of 33.2p reached for a sale this morning, against the 52-week high of 94.0p.

    Most recent sale pushed it back up to 35.38p. There do seem to be a few more sales/purchases today than recently – 44K sold, 26K bought so far in 15 trades this morning.


  44. Looks like fans think the Gang of Four have no chance at the AGM and want to get some cash back for Xmas before the spivs get a mandate to strip the assets. Who can blame them.

    btw Wallace’s denials of Mini Murray’s claims about Green and Whyte are about as convincing as a Lib Dem manifesto promise.


  45. Courts freezin, couple dudes way bad hair…… Sorry Paul Murray and a brief just walked past, been asked to leave and remove my face paint.

    Only kidding, is JC or anyone attending?


  46. Danish Pastry

    paulonotini says: (48)
    December 11, 2013 at 7:43 pm
    15 1 Rate This

    BDO(Cohen) on behalf of RFC 2012 plc & Others v Collyer Bristow in Chancery Division Courts tomorrow

    http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/court-lists/list-chancery-judges

    COURT 26
    Before MR JUSTICE NEWEY
    Thursday, 12 December 2013
    At half past 11
    GENERAL LIST
    2003 of 2012 Cohen & anr v Collyer Bristow LLP & ors
    INTERIM HEARINGS LIST
    HC12E01526 RFC 2012 Plc v Collyer Bristow LLP & anr
    Same v Same
    Same v Same
    Same v Same
    Same v Same
    β€”β€”β€”β€”-

    Morning all,
    Is the above another day in court to arrange yet another day in court, as the fees increase? Or will something significant be discussed?

    Any legal eagles in the know?

    ,……………..

    According to report from Jan 2013 the case was expected late 2013 & indicated 5-10 days so would assume this would be the main case,but I’m no legal so don’t quote me on that,lol.
    Potentially complex case with Β£25m claim by BDO against Collyer Bristow.
    Plus others including Jerome Pension Fund(the possibly unauthorized loan of Β£2.9m which was to be loaned to old club),Merchant Turnaround,HMRC who are making claims on the funds(Β£3.6m I think) held in Collyer Bristow Client account of behalf of RFC PLC 2012(IL)

    http://m.thelawyer.com/1016288.article?mobilesite=enabled


  47. Galling fiver says: (58)
    December 12, 2013 at 11:47 am
    Courts freezin, couple dudes way bad hair……

    =============================================

    Donald Trump’s there? About the only character not so far named as a possible saviour. Wealth & hair completely off the radar.

    Scottish Football will need a strong hair glue….

    “I’m dreaming of a Whyte Christmas
    Just like the ones we used to know
    Where the floodlights glisten,
    and bampots listen
    To hear stories of no dough…”


  48. Naw trumps got wan o they ear hair comb overs, saves on wax I suppose, money folk always tight as *edit sorry.


  49. paulonotini says: (49)
    December 12, 2013 at 11:52 am
    1 0 Rate This
    ——–

    Thanks paulo. Cannae keep up masel πŸ™‚

    A few quid at stake here then.


  50. Allyjambo says: (714)

    December 12, 2013 at 9:13 am

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    beatipacificiscotia says: (205)

    December 12, 2013 at 8:36 am

    RIFC shares taking a battering today – down 3p / 8% so far. Is there something in the wind?
    ________________________________-

    Looks like Auldheid’s got his gale together to blow away the smoke. Now all we need to do is crack the mirrors πŸ˜† Or turn them towards the SFA!
    ————————————————–
    Reality wins – always – because everything else is smoke and mirrors. πŸ™‚

    But even if a charge of corruption fails for burying the evidence, SFA incompetence is self evident.


  51. neepheid says: (925)

    December 12, 2013 at 9:42 am

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    iceman63 says: (311)
    December 12, 2013 at 7:28 am
    56 0 Rate This

    The most significant aspect of the ASA ruling as reported is the SFA comment on the same membership being transferred. This is simply a breach of the stated rule that Membership is non- transferrable to a separate legal entity. It is thus crystal clear that the 5 way agreement acknowledged RFC and Sevco as two legal entities. The decision to transfer membership was thus ultra vires. The SFA board here is in breach of its own rules. They have the audacity to employ a compliance officer while they fail to comply with their own articles of association. Corrupt to the point of illegitimate I am afraid.
    _____________________________________
    It may be what people want to believe, but that is incorrect, I’m afraid. The rule which forbids transfers of membership is qualified by the following rule, which gives the SFA Board absolute discretion to transfer membership between legal entities. I’m away from my vast collection of documents right now, but I will post the relevant rules in full later.

    This subject was discussed on here extensively a while back, involving Ecobhoy and Auldheid from memory, and their conclusion was that the SFA had the power to transfer a membership within the rules..
    ==============================
    I’m still going from memory but I remember concluding (and complaining) that licensing depended on written criteria whilst membership was discretionary.

    This to my mind is the core reason for the game going under. Membership should be conditional on licensing criteria being met and since licensing is annual, whilst membership a one off, it keeps clubs in line.

    It is yet another example of the stupidity of the football business in Scotland and the incompetence of the SFA/UEFA to allow such stupidity to continue.


  52. Auldheid says: (1091)

    December 12, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    Reality wins – always – because everything else is smoke and mirrors. πŸ™‚

    But even if a charge of corruption fails for burying the evidence, SFA incompetence is self evident.
    ___________________________________________

    I’m afraid the SFA’s incompetence is self evident to everyone but themselves. It would take that other panto mirror for Regan, Ogilvie and co to see that for themselves:-

    Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all’

    ‘No you ya cheatin barstewards! And it’sno Whyte either.’

    OK A’ll getma Santa outfit πŸ˜‰


  53. ForresDee says: (137)

    December 12, 2013 at 12:33 am

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    Auldheid,

    I’m prepared to accept that there may be info sufficient to show that LNS was a deliberate crock of sh*t and there are those in the SFA who were complicit in covering up/enabling.

    But, when we have a compliant media and possibly even compliance other in loftier positions.

    Just who do you expect to pull the trigger on this and what do you think will be the outcome?
    ===========================================
    A story.

    A wee boy is walking along a beach picking up shellfish washed above the tide mark and throwing them back into the water.

    An old guy is watching the laddie pick up shellfish after shellfish and launch it seaward.

    After 10 minutes he approaches the lad and says
    “Listen son, there are thousands of shellfish washed up, you cannot make a difference”

    “Well I just made a difference to him” says the lad as he launches another shellfish into the sea.

    Well if enough folk launch the evidence out there who knows which one will have the effect of pulling the trigger?

    The outcome? Depends on how many supporters are willing to accept incompetence and corruption in our game, but a change of SFA culture and a better defined relationship in terms of purpose with SPFL is what is desirable and will be essential if enough turn their back on the game.


  54. Not from a business background so apologies if this is a silly question 😐 but what would happen if the AGM didn’t happen??? I know an AGM is compulsory, but I thought filing audited accounts and paying tax was too but oldco didn’t bother with these minor details πŸ˜‰


  55. Auldheid says: (1093)

    December 12, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    Couldn’t agree more, Auldheid. I think, too, that it is important that we keep all the issues in the public domain, and we must never move on until we know that the wreck they have turned Scottish football into has been fully repaired. I’ll probably be posting here for the rest of my life then!


  56. Allyjambo says: (716)
    December 12, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    Any a discernible change in the direction of travel would be a welcome start, but it’s the same old stuff: Scottish football, run by Realrangersmen for Realrangersmen. The SFA needs deep-cleaning.


  57. Allyjambo says: (716)

    December 12, 2013 at 9:45 am
    So Murray thinks Green and Whyte might still be behind the board!
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Hope So
    Craig`s a rascal
    but he`s great entertaiment


  58. GoosyGoosy says: (488)
    December 12, 2013 at 1:35 pm
    Allyjambo says: (716)

    December 12, 2013 at 9:45 am
    So Murray thinks Green and Whyte might still be behind the board!
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Hope So
    Craig`s a rascal
    but he`s great entertaiment
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I know I’m not the only one who will be terribly disappointed if he isn’t still involved.


  59. So the main public mouthpiece for the requistioners does not rule out Craig Whyte still being involved. Yet despite the SFA refusing to go public on much, they have, as far as I recall, made it clear a licence was dependent on Whyte not being involved. It’s amazing that someone like Paul Murray has no issues whatsover in publicly speaking about Whyte, as surely it puts the licence at risk!

    Well, It’s not amazing at all really because Murray knows as well as everyone else that NOTHING could put their licence at risk.


  60. Brenda good question concerning if AGM does not take place. Also how low have the shares got to drop for panic to really set in?
    I’m dreaming of a Whyte Christmas
    Just like the ones I used to know
    With Green in Govan hanging up the holly
    And us internet bambots forever so jolly
    And the rich spivs singing ho ho ho


  61. Inactivist Bears

    It’s always interesting to put yourself in someone else’s shoes and imagine how you’d react and behave. If the football club I’ve supported for decades became a laughing stock, accused of everything from low cunning to serious fraud and league fixing I’d be furious. I mean really furious. I’d be looking for every opportunity to restore its good name, persecute the offenders and protect it for the future. I’d be organizing, agitating, protesting and educating myself on corporate governance and shareholder rights, I’d be boning up on media strategies and past campaigns that have turned the little guy into a whip for the board room numpties. Did I say furious ? Yes efin jefin furious.

    So what are the Bear up to:
    β€’ 12% share ownership – good start
    β€’ some red cards – nice PR
    β€’ talks with rebel group who own zero% shares – really – why
    β€’ meeting with activist investors – erm well ok.

    To summarize – not the actions of an intelligent, organized, indignant, single-minded and furious support after two years of hell – is it ?

    What about a 10,000 man sit down protest on Edminston Drive DURING every home match

    What about shareholder activism – 5% shareholding gives the right to call EGMs – even 100 shareholders with only Β£100 each have significant rights – the basis of most activism – ask Laxey
    β€’ http://www.taylorwessing.com/uploads/tx_siruplawyermanagement/Shareholder_activism_-_Guide_to_shareholder_rights.pdf
    β€’ http://www.burges-salmon.com/Practices/corporate/Publications/Shareholder_activism_in_UK_responding_to_challenges_from_shareholder_activists.pdf

    What about progressing Mr McCoist’s cleansing agenda by forcing publication of key documents that either prove the club’s innocence or identify those you have acted against its good reputation. Let’s start with the 5-Way Agreement, Pinsent Mason Report and of course the Deeds. Hey board – no docs – no cash and frequent EGMs – your call.

    Bloody hell – this method acting really gets inside your head – I’m off to Ibrox now to make a start I’ll flesh out the To Do list on the train – investor lists, press contacts, tv documentary strands, newspaper ads, press conference, celebrity fans, debenture holders ( we could sit them all outside each home match with an old telly) . β€œHello is that Mark Thomas – look I’m planning a flash mob at Glasgow Central – can you give me a few tips”, β€œBilly – I need a good protest song – something like β€˜which side are you on boys’ – well you know what I mean”, β€œ Michael Moore ? – hi Mike – I’ve got some stupid white men that need a rocket – any ideas?”, β€œIan Hislop – love the show – yeah Merton is a bit crap – look what about a new cartoon strip in Private Eye β€œ. β€œClive Stafford Smith – look Clive do you need a break from all that death row stuff – I’ve got a great little project for you – Mike Mansfield already signed up”

    Come on Bears it’s time to stop hiding and hibernating and start showing that you give a damn. The spivs are watching whether you can organise and cause them problems. So far they are laughing at your flaccid efforts. It’s their club not yours – unless you get off your erse.


  62. youcantbuyhistory says: (46)

    December 12, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    If whyte is still involved in collusion with green and has been from the start.we must then assume the pinsent masonics earned their million pound fee deliberating on evidence fed to them by green. I’m sure when this is all out in the wash and whytes links are revealed the s.f.a will rule without fear nor favour and strip sevco of their solitary title and banish them forever.the media will of course after exposing this evidence will then lead the way and explain to the masses it’s the only option as after all rules are rules.

    *********

    You missed the part where CF showed that NO ONE – neither CG, IA, CW nor Easley brothers – in fact not one person connected with the investigation actually replied to them.

    No one fed them anything other than their own imagination that everything was kosher!

    And for that they charged them and refused to let Malcolm in the Muddle read the report, we are led to believe from him………yet CF showed an email where he clearly has read it………..

    And SFA have this as integral part of 5 way agmt……..

    As Mr Hardy would say, “Its another fine mess….”


  63. m.c.f.c.
    ‘Come on Bears it’s time to stop hiding and hibernating and start showing that you give a damn. The spivs are watching whether you can organise and cause them problems. So far they are laughing at your flaccid efforts. It’s their club not yours – unless you get off your erse.’
    ======================
    How about we stop giving advice to a bunch of people who don’t deserve it.
    They have threatened clubs with boycotts,journalists with bodily harm,sent bombs and bullets to a football manager and a lawyer also a female politician.
    Help them , I don’t feckin think so.


  64. Tic 6709 says: (568)
    December 12, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    How about we stop giving advice to a bunch of people who don’t deserve it.

    ——————————————————————————————————————–
    Tic

    Fair point – but It was directed at the reasonable fans who would probably prefer to have a club that is legal, honest and decent. It wasn’t directed at that thugs and morons you describe – who would probably not understand it as advise anyway.


  65. Oh look, a squirrel!

    With Auldheid’s gale blowing away the smoke surrounding RIFC/TRFC, someone’s whistling down the wind πŸ™„ I wonder how long till he says something about the real issues that RIFC/TRFC face in the coming week; like what are the chances the rebels will get in, and what are the chances they’ll make the least bit difference if they do?


  66. Flogging a Dead Squirrel

    There must be some by-law against flagellating deceased rodents in public – Bryce – give it a rest man.


  67. m.c.f.c.
    I understood what your post meant.
    The way I look at it is quite simple ,the so called decent fans have stood by and allowed the bigots and spivs be their voice.
    There has been no concerted effort of any kind ,look at Dunfermline and Hearts,that is called supporting your club without blaming all and sundry.
    Sevco fans think everyone is against them,in that they are correct.


  68. m.c.f.c. says: (18)

    December 12, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    Tic 6709 says: (568)
    December 12, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    How about we stop giving advice to a bunch of people who don’t deserve it.

    ——————————————————————————————————————–
    Tic

    Fair point – but It was directed at the reasonable fans who would probably prefer to have a club that is legal, honest and decent.
    ______________________________

    I take it you know them all personally, mcfc! πŸ˜‰

    The evidence so far this afternoon (on here at least) is that they are more interested in convincing the world that TRFC = RFC rather than facing up to the financial mess they are in. It’s a bit like leaving a bag holding all your money in your garden over night then wondering why it’s gone in the morning. Then waiting for someone else to come along and give you more than you lost. In the meantime you argue with your neighbour over what colour you are going to paint the fence.


  69. AllyJambo

    an absolute belter … ah nearly p1ssed masel !!!

    It’s a bit like leaving a bag holding all your money in your garden over night then wondering why it’s gone in the morning. Then waiting for someone else to come along and give you more than you lost. In the meantime you argue with your neighbour over what colour you are going to paint the fence.


  70. bryce9a says: (97)

    December 12, 2013 at 3:02 pm
    ———————————————–

    Completely different circumstances and that is the whole problem, this is not a change from one business to another, from one club name to another, this is about a new company/club assuming the name and background of another that ceased to exist. The new company/club did not change the name, they borrowed it from another who subsequently had to change theirs so they could let Sevco use it…. And here is the rub, the newly named old club still exists……….

    How can you even compare that?


  71. Allyjambo says: (718)
    December 12, 2013 at 3:36 pm

    I take it you know them all personally, mcfc!

    ——————————————————————————————————————————

    Ally

    It amazes me that the decent Bears – and there must be some – have walked away from this shambles – the doctors, teachers, lawyers. churchmen and church goers– where are they all ? What are they doing as the spivs wind-up the nutters and bigots.

    The best outcome for everyone – except the spivs and nutters – is a fresh start with the mass support demanding that wrong doing by agents of the club is exposed and dealt with honourably.

    If no-one is prepared to lead that then they don’t deserve a club that they can take their children and grand-children to. If that happened to City there’d be a big whole in my enjoyment of life and a life-long embarrassment if I hadn’t tried my utmost to help. As a neutral I’d like to encourage anyone who wants to work towards that – but as you say – there’s precious little evidence of anyone standing up to lead the task.


  72. Was IamRangers not in court yesterday? Anyone know how that went?

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