On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.
The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.
I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.
There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.
That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.
That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.
Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.
The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.
The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.
If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.
JimBhoy says: (4)
December 12, 2013 at 4:35 pm
Was IamRangers not in court yesterday? Anyone know how that went?
+++++++++++++++++++++
Beat me to it by 3mins – I had the very same question. Anyone?
Does Shockbridge have to pay his £200k back before the AGM? Or will he do a fat Sally and stall? I think Shockbridge could find himself voted out, the last of Chico Pyro pants spivs to get their pay off wedge, it would be daft of him to pay up before the AGM imo…
Good to see some posters on here from Paul McConville’s site, does anyone know how the funeral went? A 5,30am callout meant I missed that unfortunately.. RIP Big man…
bryce9a says: (99)
December 12, 2013 at 4:32 pm
I’d go along with what you are saying apart from the fact that group of individuals you refer to don’t have a pot to piss in, appear to be quite happy to be filmed laughing along with paedo jokes ( then see one of them deny it) and nearly bursting into a chorus of a certain songs. The potential sugar daddy amongst them has given fair warning he is doing a runner leaving four whose business reputation is hardly stellar. These guys are then supported by a range of factions who really are just waking up with sleep in their eyes and are nothing more than the the blind leading the blind.
I feel Johnny and Deniece may be right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM39yIKoSo4
EDIT
PS To be fair Paul Murray, with support from Brian Kennedy, warned all the groups you mention about D&P making a mistake handing ‘the club’ over to Green &Co and you know what? Nearly all of the groups waving red cards last weekend laid down the red carpet for the Spivs. They better watch a strong gust doesn’t come along to make them change their minds once again 😉
@MCFC howdy mate, good to see you posting… What a fatastic result for your boys the other night there…
I see wee Lenny still thinks Ambrose is a defender..! 🙁
@JimBhoy – howdy mate – couldn’t quite believe that we came from 2-0 down – and AWAY from home – lots of changes – that must be Pellegrini’s new Away line-up !
Sorry about your boys last night – not nice – but will focus them on the league – and the cups in case they come up against some up-start diddy team with ideas above their bank balance 🙂
m.c.f.c
Did you mean up-start or start-up?
bryce9a
Simple question.
If there are a load of intelligent and decent bears out there, why has it taken so long for them to open their eyes after years and years of getting shafted?
bailemeanach says: (132)
December 12, 2013 at 5:15 pm
m.c.f.c
Did you mean up-start or start-up?
———————————————————-
LOL
MCFC
I was responding to your post of 4.09pm, which appears to contradict your earlier offering from an hour earlier (which I hadn’t earlier read) the content of which indicates that you do in fact recognise…
– Rangers fans haven’t “walked away from this shambles”,
– that there are folk “prepared to lead”
– and that there is in fact evidence of fans “standing up” to lead the task
…albeit you think the efforts shown so far are insufficent. Fine, a valid perspective. If you’d transmitted those sentiments in the later post then I wouldn’t have felt obliged to respond.
If the 500 in attendance at the requisitioners meeting are deemed as decent bears then Sevco are in a worse state than I thought .
All I saw were a bunch of peepil angry that spivs now seem to be stealing from them .I bet if you asked every one of them in attendance if they thought the six titles the old club won whilst the EBTs were in existence were tainted then you would be guaranteed a unanimous result .
The fact that THEY were stealing from US at the time would never enter their tiny minds .
IMO this is another bi product of the SFAs disgraceful handling of this whole episode ,before this debacle a lot of Scottish football fans were of the opinion that there were plenty of decent Rangers Football fans (although the zealots hogged the limelight ) but now I fear that may have changed ,I know it has for me .
PS ,don’t get me started on the WTC
bryce9a says: (102)
December 12, 2013 at 5:30 pm
MCFC
I was responding to your post of 4.09pm, which appears to contradict your earlier offering from an hour earlier (which I hadn’t earlier read) the content of which indicates that you do in fact recognise…
– Rangers fans haven’t “walked away from this shambles”,
– that there are folk “prepared to lead”
– and that there is in fact evidence of fans “standing up” to lead the task
——————————————————————————————————————————
Bryce
The efforts so far are truly laughable – people with zero% shares and complicit in the last failure talking platitudes and dodging the most basic questions in a room of people who own more shares than they do. Do me a favour – if this is your idea of activism then you’re doomed – you hear me – doomed, doomed
JimBhoy says: (6)
December 12, 2013 at 5:02 pm
@MCFC howdy mate, good to see you posting… What a fatastic result for your boys the other night there…
I see wee Lenny still thinks Ambrose is a defender..! 🙁
……………………………………………….
IAmbrose….what a Custard….as for defending…he couldnay spell it…never mind play it!
For those wondering about Laxeys involvement with TRIC you may wish an insight into a report (pasted for info) on their performance relative to their shareholding in property company QED. I think the vital phrase here is property company. These guys are serious players and if they take your shares you are going to suffer. They are certainly not interested in football although I can see Chico selling them on a good property deal. Its the only show in town at the moment.
Yes, QED’s NAV collapsed by about 80% – I’m glad I didn’t have to suffer through that… But I don’t think this is necessarily an indictment of their property skills, what really put the boot in was too much confidence, too much leverage and (most of all) a massively dilutive rights issue to set their finances straight. Situations like this (whether it’s property or not) can present an amazing opportunity after the event – financial risk’s been eliminated, asset values and/or goodwill have been slashed, and yet the share price is still cratered because people have grown to hate the stock so much.
Now Quintain management seems suitably chastened, and more risk averse. They’ve set a transparent list of targets, and are actively tracking against them. Balance sheet values have been marked down significantly in the past few years, and QED trades at a massive 66% discount to NAV (averaging the latest NAVs). Recent progress/activity appears to confirm the latent value now embedded in the portfolio. With leverage now under control (and further news flow), there’s no reason decent returns can’t be extracted simply from discount compression alone.
Net LTV is around 51% (up from 41%). This bears monitoring, but appears a natural consequence of their new approach to phased development. If I understand correctly, and they’re consistent in their new approach, we should expect to see Net LTV move within a range. In the past year, it’s cycled up as they progress development – we should then see it drop back down as they realize value from completed phase(s). And repeat. Cash coverage is often ignored with developers, as they’re constantly buying and selling things, but I estimate QED has about 1.3 years of cash on hand to cover annual expenses. Put all this together, and QED certainly appears a cheap (medium risk) property stock.
And now the catalyst: Laxey Partners! I’ve written about them in previous Catalyst posts – they’re a pretty aggressive/successful fund manager, focused mostly on closing asset discounts. They’ve been involved in some pretty high-profile, and acrimonious, shareholder/takeover battles. Property’s a sector they’re fond of, evidenced by their activist property vehicle, Terra Catalyst (TCF:LN). Between TCF and other funds, they now have an (increasing) 13.1% stake in QED (Taube Hodson Stonex (and here), another respected investor, also have a 4.9% stake). QED now appears to be Laxey’s largest listed property investment.
Despite appearances, Laxey are relatively conservative, so we can be sure they’ll be actively monitoring QED’s leverage. Early last summer, it looked like the market was ready to recognize QED’s fundamentals, Laxey’s significant presence, and rumours of a possible takeover bid. The share price rallied sharply from the mid-30s to the mid-60s, and was then overwhelmed by the EU Winter of Our Discontent. Now, it looks like we could see the same trajectory again – if not, expect Laxey to become impatient before too long and push for a sale, or wind-down strategy. In fact, Laxey could scare enough capital/support to launch a bid itself, as it’s done a number of times before. These bids included a successful bid for Spazio, which had almost EUR 800 mio in property assets at the time (and is making excellent progress with a wind-down strategy since).
Bryce
ra peepil seem to be for electing the 4 “requisitioners”
on what basis can they support the election of Malcolm Murray who was largely involved in this omnishambles
He sat through it, he hasn’t broken ranks on what the murky dealings were – other than “they were bad people” (not peepil you’ll note)
He was appointed by the spivs, oversaw the emptying of the coffers and said nothing – until they disposed of him.
IS THAT REALLY WHAT YOU WANT ON YOUR BOARD? a yes man?
Then there is Paul Murray – same situation, different owner.
These are the guys you are pinning your hopes on?
WHY?
considering NONE of them are going to put in their OWN money, why don’t the Rangers support (12% shareholders) call their own EGM and propose their OWN reps on the board. Push for their OWN CEO who can run the company and their own directors who can raise the much needed finances that will be required (soon) to keep the show on the road
Why are you (the wider support, not you personally) so beholden to these guys? What have they done for Rangers?
m.c.f.c. says: (26)
December 12, 2013 at 4:09 pm
It certainly amazes me, and I’m sure a great many others, that there’s been no alternative view or plan put forward by the more sensible and intelligent Rangers supporters. Joking apart, there must be a fair few of them, but, truth be told, even those seemingly high level businessmen, who’ve come to the fore in the hour of need, show a distinct lack of; well, let’s just say, common sense (so much more I could have said, along with things they don’t lack, but should). It is one of the saddest things about this whole saga, that no person, or body, has come forward showing any of the contrition, nor qualities of leadership and genuine dignity, that most felt necessary to create a truly new Rangers, prepared to work hard to build a team/club more suited to the 21st century, rather than the 19th. They really all do appear to believe they ‘are the people’, regardless of their personal level of intelligence or place in society.
On a roll post wise at the moment Allyjambo, keep it going son 😆
Allyjambo says: (719)
December 12, 2013 at 6:19 pm
——————————————-
Ally, by the looks of it, the overheads of running “A” rangers at Ibrox, with Murray Park in tow is simply unaffordable (at least in a sustainable/traditional means)
Even when they were in the CL and playing in SPL with higher ticket prices, they didn’t run at a profit.
the cost base is too high
so, what is an alternative plan for the ibrox club?
Even without any players, the costs outstrip income – so it’s not as simple as playing youngsters/part time players – the infrastructure needs overhauled – HOW?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says: (1060)
December 12, 2013 at 6:43 pm
Even without any players, the costs outstrip income – so it’s not as simple as playing youngsters/part time players – the infrastructure needs overhauled – HOW?
++++++++
That is the question some would hope nobody has the answer for 🙂
Allyjambo
They will always have the attitude of WATP as this is enforced at every level in our society. They have always had ex directors in the higher echelons of the SFA and the MSM souls in their back pockets. Even BOS bent over backwards to aid Mr Murray. So contrition to who, as they in their opinion are the people. This is a monster that is classed as a fabric of our society. Created by our society.
Can they change? More important will society in our country want them to change. Do we really think a day will come when their traditions will not be alive and kicking in Govan,
Not The Huddle Malcontent says: (1060)
December 12, 2013 at 6:43 pm
I think it’s the lack of contrition and understanding of their position (in so many ways) that amazes so many. Add that to their need to be BIG, BIGGER, BIGGEST and they were never going to be a sustainable business. They think a budget is spending money. They needed to be able to think small, then grow. Instead, they thought they were still big, and they did the opposite of grow (just look at the share price). They are all so full of their own pomposity that they were an easy target for spivs, who only had to promise them the earth and they were made. They are still so desperate to be big, they aren’t even wondering how the ‘requesitioners’ are going to finance the club if they get on the board, or how they are going to influence matters without genuine power.
I’ve listened to a little of the radio coverage after Celtic’s mauling in Barcelona last night. The guy on Talk Sport suggested that the Champions of Scotland should not be allowed into the Champions League because in his words “they are never going to win it”.
I wonder what his thoughts are on the FA Cup?
Should the top teams in England only compete in this tournament because lets face it Burnley, MK Dons, Northampton etc are never going to win it. No offence meant to the clubs mentioned but as football currently stands they, and a host of other clubs in England, are not going to win the FA Cup.
He further went on to say that good teams such as Everton and Spurs should be allowed into the Champions League. So the thinking there must be that they have a REAL chance of winning it then.
Utter clown of a broadcaster!!!
Let’s have a look at the EPL?
They are teams who are playthings of billionaires and who sold their corporate soul a long time ago. Virtually every club loses money and heaven forbid if you are unlucky ever to be relegated because a financial abyss awaits.
Perhaps, if the Talk Sport guy was really interested in the sport, he would be asking for a better distribution of Champions League money instead of retaining money within the top five leagues.
Fast forward an hour or two and we have the great Scottish press debating the result on BBC Scotland and, hey ho, it’s because there is no competition because ‘The Rangers’ are absent. Well we all saw that coming.
Another tube said that Celtic should buy a £6M pound striker because they can afford it. Well there goes financial stability straight out the window. To buy a player for £6M your probably going to have to pay him over £40K a week. That’s £8M on one player over a four year contract.
These fools just don’t get it.
The days of a Scottish club buying players for £6M pounds are gone and they simply are not coming back just to allow them to sell copy!
However what the top league in this country desperately needs is a team losing £10M a year because that will give us competition.
Do these guys live in a parallel universe with fantasy economics or what?
If the AGM happens, then on the 19th there could be a rather high profile display of ‘TRFC dignity’…both inside and outside Ibrox.
I wonder what plans Jack has in place to manage this potential PR disaster in the making, for the ‘Rangers brand’ ?
And if it does kick off, will it be reported at all in the SMSM ?
If the AGM happens then I think the board will be there by video link.
justshatered says: (269)
December 12, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Very good post, justshatered. They also conveniently forget that Rangers needed to cheat to stay competitive at home and in Europe in the past. They gonna do it again?
Still, if playing in an uncompetitive league can make Celtic uncompetitive in Europe, just think how well they’ll do if they have to compete against a cheating club again! I’d hazard a guess that those suggesting Celtic ‘need’ a Rangers said it in a way that would suggest TRFC should be fast-tracked to the Premiership, for Celtic’s good, of course.
Still, playing against Lee McCulloch, Ian Black, John Daly and numerous other 3rd tier giants would really prepare Celtic for another tilt at the Champions League!
StevieBC says: (938)
December 12, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Could be a world record number of black eyes for an AGM!
justshatered says: (269)
December 12, 2013 at 7:51 pm
I’ve listened to a little of the radio coverage after Celtic’s mauling in Barcelona last night. The guy on Talk Sport suggested that the Champions of Scotland should not be allowed into the Champions League because in his words “they are never going to win it”.
I wonder what his thoughts are on the FA Cup?
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If you find yourself listening to Talksport as they discuss Scottish football (and I had the misfortune to turn on my radio for the show you mention, just as A. Durham launched into one of his ‘I-am-a-caricature-of-a-football-journalist’ opinions) just use the ‘do not feed the troll’ advice, and change to another station until they’ve had a chance to calm down. Just goes to show that it’s not just the Scottish media that can be thick and uninformed.
Tic 6709 says: (571)
December 12, 2013 at 7:56 pm
If the AGM happens then I think the board will be there by video link.
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Presumably the AGM had to keep being postponed until the builders could guarantee to the board that the bunker would be finished.
Adrian Durham declared a couple of weeks ago that Liverpool deserved to win the league this year because of hillsborough
In other news about 10 days ago he had a book signing night arranged in Liverpool
Allyjambo says: (722)
December 12, 2013 at 8:08 pm
…
I’d hazard a guess that those suggesting Celtic ‘need’ a Rangers said it in a way that would suggest TRFC should be fast-tracked to the Premiership, for Celtic’s good, of course…
=========================
You just know that suggestion is coming eventually…perhaps Ogilvie’s ‘last hurrah’ before slithering off to tend his garden ?
So by Durham’s logic only potential winners should be in the CL
Well that narrows the field down to about 6 clubs
Feckin idiot
justshatered says: (269)
December 12, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Another tube said that Celtic should buy a £6M pound striker because they can afford it. Well there goes financial stability straight out the window. To buy a player for £6M your probably going to have to pay him over £40K a week. That’s £8M on one player over a four year contract.
These fools just don’t get it.
——————–
My answer to that would be can celtic keep afford to be buying duds? Since 2007/08 Celtic have signed 16 strikers at a combined cost of 19,857,200 this has yielded a return of 237 goals from 636 games in the league. However 4 players Hooper,McDonald, Stokes and Samaras have contributed 196 of these goals. For a combined cost of roughly 5.9 million pounds. This means the remaining 12 players who cost almost 14 million contributed 41 goals. In my opinion surely that is a bigger waste of money than investing in a proven goal scorer who will provide a return on the park as well as a substantial return in the transfer market.
JackBauer says: (2)
December 12, 2013 at 8:39 pm
Good point however you could spend the whole £19M on one player who would still not be guaranteed to score goals in the Champions League. What kind of wages would you be paying a £19M player?
That is scary money.
The fact is even £6M players are a gamble in todays market of over inflated prices and may be no better than guys from your own, or some one else’s, youth system..
campsiejoe says: (612)
December 12, 2013 at 8:37 pm
5 0 Rate This
So by Durham’s logic only potential winners should be in the CL
Well that narrows the field down to about 6 clubs
Feckin idiot
===========================
And all but the top 6 in Europe will be hoping and praying they can qualify for the group stages next year, or even make it through to that stage every now and then. Nae news there. Might not do Celtic any harm to be on the receiving end of a gubbing.
On all commercial radio talk sport, clyde etc,., the panel/mouthpieces are aid to be shock sport jocks.
The panel/mouthpieces opine inconsistently on any subject with the only objective of keeping people listening to the next commercial, their views are utterly irrelevant.
The press and commercial television are no better!
The BBC unfortunately are paid for by the tax payers to be non-commercial, unfortunately the BBC fall into the error of trying to be commercial.
Result of all this is your sanity is maintained better by listening to none of them, or if you have to be aware of their agendas.
In reality at the moment there are approximately 12 possible winners of the Champions League, Bayern, Chelsea, Arsenal, PSG, MAn CIty, Man U, Real MAdrid, Barcelona, AC milan, Inter, Juventus. Dortmund and Athletico madrid are trying to push in. Its simply down to money!
In the EPL it is actually worse over the previous few years, MAn U, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, agin only simply down to money!
Every club in CL or EPL or SPFL or anywhere else, must run their club as best they can make, attempting to compete as high as they can, balancing risks and rewards, budgets and players.
But that good running of a club will not sell papers, air-time or adverts for commercial media companies.
Buddy
Again were looking at the wrong event.
AGMs a waste of money mini Murray and co are done.
The games in London in court with Bdo (oldco) v Collyers (Withey) v Wavetower (Craigie). V the duped pension fund.
If I can and its continued, I’ll be there and see if its all over for MBB or ?
Anyone got access to Fridays sittings?
😎
I never met Paul McConville and have never even spoke to him but today I attended his funeral – might seem strange but any regular reader of his scotslawthoughts blog would easily understand why.
The church was packed with standing room only in what was a deeply emotional service even to someone like myself who lost their faith many years ago.
I didn’t go to the actual burial or the gathering afterwards but headed-off down the road to get the bus back to Hamilton town centre and was joined at the bus stop by someone who had obviously been at the funeral service and we chatted and and headed into the town centre.
We arrived a few minutes after opening time and went for a pint which led to a few more followed by a train trip to Glasgow and a few more pints.
Two strangers brought together by a total stranger to both – I don’t need to use any sugary sentiments to praise what Paul’s contribution to the blogosphere and Scotland actually was and today I truly experienced it first hand.
Us two strangers spoke of many things today but there was little emphasis on Rangers other than a mutual agreement that it was a tragedy that many of their support exhibited – at least in the early stages – by dismissing Paul as a Rangers Hater when he was actually a pathfinder to resolving many of the financial pitfalls which lay ahead.
However on a day like today the fate of the Bears mean little as we think of the sorrow and loss suffered by Paul’s wife, his daughters, family and friends.
Paul you were a remarkable man and will be remembered as such because you touched so many lives including those of strangers like myself.
Thanks Eco and any other who managed to attend. I kind of hope you represented us in spirit as it were.
Allyjambo says: (722)
December 12, 2013 at 8:08 pm
Very good post, justshatered. They also conveniently forget that Rangers needed to cheat to stay competitive at home and in Europe in the past. They gonna do it again?
=======================================
The environment Rangers operate in is perfect for ‘cheating’, if they can find a way to do it. For years what was actually a £80M overdraft was portrayed in the media as Rangers simply being a cash rich club, which they simply were not. Then the very suggestion that HMRC were on their case was dismissed as the fantasy of bampots. Whyte rolled in with his off the radar wealth then used our taxes to put his players on £25K a week contracts with no questions asked. If Rangers arrive in the top league and spend £25M on players right away it will be applauded, not questioned. If they can find a way of getting money from any source, they have a free reign to operate as they please.
@eco – bravo
ianagain says: (51)
December 12, 2013 at 8:55 pm
Again were looking at the wrong event.
AGMs a waste of money mini Murray and co are done.
The games in London in court with Bdo (oldco) v Collyers (Withey) v Wavetower (Craigie). V the duped pension fund.
If I can and its continued, I’ll be there and see if its all over for MBB or ?
Anyone got access to Fridays sittings?
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Far as i can tell nothing tomorrow and i note that the hearing today was listed as an “interim hearing” so looks as though the main event still to come.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/court-lists/list-chancery-judges
Your bang on re the importance of this case compared with the circus in Govan on the 19th though and with any luck it might just clear up some of the murkier aspects of the MBB’s funding for his takeover at Ibrox.
The link below is to a short piece that Paul McConville put in Scotzine back in April 2012 wrt this case
http://www.scotzine.com/2012/04/rangers-v-collyer-bristow-more-questions-than-answers/
justshatered says: (270)
December 12, 2013 at 8:48 pm
I totally agree spending big on a player is certainly no guarantee of getting goals and I’m definitely not advocating spending anything like 19m on a player!!! However you can’t keep continually gambling on potential either not at some of the prices Celtic have been paying.
Tartanwulver says: (468)
December 12, 2013 at 8:14 pm
%%%%%%%
The only good thing on talk sport is hawkesby & Jacobs, clips of the week.
All the rest is 11 pm bar talk. Aidrian Durham is particularly thick. As for Grey & that other gobsh1te!……
Eco, well said.
Exiled Celt says: (864)
December 12, 2013 at 3:01 pm
32 0 Rate This
youcantbuyhistory says: (46)
December 12, 2013 at 2:46 pm
If whyte is still involved in collusion with green and has been from the start.we must then assume the pinsent masonics earned their million pound fee deliberating on evidence fed to them by green. I’m sure when this is all out in the wash and whytes links are revealed the s.f.a will rule without fear nor favour and strip sevco of their solitary title and banish them forever.the media will of course after exposing this evidence will then lead the way and explain to the masses it’s the only option as after all rules are rules.
*********
You missed the part where CF showed that NO ONE – neither CG, IA, CW nor Easley brothers – in fact not one person connected with the investigation actually replied to them.
No one fed them anything other than their own imagination that everything was kosher!
And for that they charged them and refused to let Malcolm in the Muddle read the report, we are led to believe from him………yet CF showed an email where he clearly has read it………..
And SFA have this as integral part of 5 way agmt……..
As Mr Hardy would say, “Its another fine mess….”…………………………………exactly exiled Celt but why did the s.f.a not appoint an alternative to pinsent masonics and do their own investigation?
Partimearab
Remember this article by Paul well and its one of the reasons I’ve been banging on about its importance for nigh on a year. i
I note as he does the totally different arguments employed in public in Glasgow vv those in court in London by the administrators.
This is the “in” to the off mentioned early days and possibly the banks links with Minty and how come Craigy?
ianagain says: (52)
December 12, 2013 at 9:44 pm
This is the in to the off mentioned early days and possibly the banks links with Minty and how come Craigy?
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Agreed. My suspicion is that the reason for going down the Craig Whyte route was his agreement that Rangers would take on any liability arising from the BTC. What are the chances they would have managed a successful £25m share issue with a potential £30m plus liability hanging over them – nil one would suppose.
I’m not pinning too much hope on this court case and the Ticketus v Whyte case unravelling what went on…but there is a chance that they might.
I see there is still talk of the lack of contrition being shown by any version of Rangers or fans thereof.
Here is the news: There will be no contrition. The company now operating of Ibrox have got far enough down the line to regard past events as a part of the “history” which their company did not buy.
They genuinely see no point at all in expressing, or any reason at all to express, any regret to the past behaviour of what they insist is the same club (but a bit different).
The fans have a “debt-free” (ha ha) club which is cutting swathes through the lower leagues. They have entirely forgotten the dubious means by which their “club” previously secured success. The old Rangers is now just a part of their perceived “history”, and any bad bits are to be laid at the door of Craig Whyte. It was not their fault, it was not Rangers’ fault. They see no need to humble themselves.
They feel that they are the wronged party.
Angus1983 says: (1290)
December 12, 2013 at 9:59 pm
1
They feel that they are the wronged party.
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You only have to read Rangers media for 5 minutes to see how ‘wronged’ they feel.
Punished enough etc
Can’t wait to get back to take revenge blah blah blah
Angus I have repeatedly expressed regret at the conduct of Rangers in many situations. Therefore I feel hard done by on a personal level when you say no rangers fans have shown any contrition. I understand also that you were replying to another post and did not make the initial statement. In addition, I understand that people posting here are not going to qualify such statements by “no rangers fans (except poor sweet dear little Ryan) have shown contrition” but I still feel the need to stand up for myself! 🙂
JackBauer says: (3)
December 12, 2013 at 9:34 pm
I agree but if you buy three or four guys at £2M and one of them you sell on for £5M or £6M then your losses are off set where as if you buy one at £6M and, for whatever reason, it doesn’t work out then your stuffed.
Either way you are gambling but one way your spread betting and the other placing all your money on one horse. I personally don’t know what the correct path is but whatever choice you make you have to balance the books.
That old devil called economics will always have the last say.
Ryan has been punished enough imho 😀
ecobhoy says: (2077)
December 12, 2013 at 9:04 pm
79 0 Rate This
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A very moving, personal tribute ecobhoy.
Ryan – I think the point is you and other like you would be run out of town by the others who have permarage on Chris Graham’s blog or any of the other multitude who want to be the leaders of all the different sects. They all seem to want to out do each other in who can be the biggest fawning idiot to people who quite frankly have done nothing to deserve such fan worship. Neither Easdales nor The Murrays have shown any plan to demonstrate they could run a pub pool tournament never mind a club that purports to be the Fabric of Scottish Society. None of these clowns would have any support without promises made to Chris, McMurdo etc of a promise of brogues, who then do exactly what they criticse Jack Irvine for doing – spin stories for their own purposes.
Hearts and Pars fans found very articulate fans to lead their causes with no focus on anything but the matter in hand – to save their clubs from liquidation.
The Rangers Franchise fans would rather argue about trivial matters like whether Baltimore Colts becoming Indianapolis Colts means they can argue that its the same team.
You are in the minority – I think that is the point.
http://www.tsfm.org.uk/2013/11/past-the-event-horizon/comment-page-45/#comment-77422
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I think at least it will reveal the extent of collusion between the law companies and Craigie and the initial investors. I mean what was the pension fund doing? Following a punt? Don’t get it.
Exiled Celt thanks, fair point. Hearts and pars fans did find such people I guess, but there are very vocal rangers supporters groups who shout down sensible talk all too easily. Most of my rangers supporting friends are frustrated by them, but they run the forums etc. and there’s limits in time and ability in what we can do. Minority is not a term I’m sure I’d agree with – I may be wrong and may be convinced otherwise – but as I’ve said before, I will certainly agree that when it comes to vocal fans of rangers then yes I express minority views.
Bryce, with regards to contrition, rangers committed tax crimes through the DOS scheme and without doubt, while the EBT scheme was at the time of writing technically legal, it was surely not something that could be considered moral or even a good idea. That is the starting point , for me, for which I express regret.
bryce9a says: (103)
December 12, 2013 at 10:46 pm
Bryce, that is nonsense. A more sensible RFC* fan (Ryan) will recall our exchange (before you were hired, probably) about my own personal feelings as an ex-RBS employee now left feeling, if not guilty, at least awkward and embarrassed about having enjoyed the good times and having taken pride in being part of what was seen as a successful business. That’s how most people react to subsequently finding out they were being fed a lie and realising they shouldn’t have bought into it.
Most RFC* fans are like you, however, and don’t see anything to be embarrassed or apologetic about. Like you/them, there was nothing I could have done about it, so I don’t feel guilty, but it is embarrassing and I deserve to have friends make fun of me (nicely) for occasionally having been over-proud of being part of a (perceived) successful business. You should try it – people would like you more!
ecobhoy says: (2077)
December 12, 2013 at 9:04 pm
‘…Two strangers brought together by a total stranger to both – I don’t need to use any sugary sentiments to praise what Paul’s contribution to the blogosphere and Scotland actually was and today I truly experienced it first hand…’
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I wish I had been there to make it three, ecobhoy.
Paul’s influence on me was actually quite profound.
His approach forced me to try to stay clear in my mind that unreasoned passion is best kept in check, and that what people would wish to be the case is best subordinated to attempts to try to establish what IS the case.
In other, more enlightened societies, those attempts would be made by journalists, and pursued to conclusion.
In this country, the football supporter was kept absolutely in the dark, because there was no MSM journalist on any newspaper or any radio programme with balls enough to dig deep behind the mountains of self-aggrandising crap that was fed out successively by SDM, CW, CG, the SFA and the rest.
It was only the persistence of RTC, Phil McG, and some of the early posters on RTC, that led eventually to the initially bold Daly TV documentary ( what has happened since?).
Print and radio hacks right up until very recent times, when Cosgrove, Spence, English began to voice some questions, stayed solidly schtum, clearly following either a cross-media party line or the line of physical or social self-protection.
The continuing existence of TSFM has ensured that the SFA cannot, as in times past, act secretly and without accountability.
We KNOW that there was dirty work at the cross-roads in
– the whole matter of SFA involvement in the scandal of undeclared players’ earnings,
– in the Bryson selling- of- the- disciplinary- pass with an absurd, unprecedented ‘interpretation’ which he was unauthorised to make, and the LNS tribunal’s readiness( with an all too evident sigh of relief) to accede to that interpretation
-in the utterly bizarre 5-way agreement struck to try to lend ‘legitimacy’ to a shameful act in which the ‘Authorities’ weakly and all too readily gave way to a blustering, hectoring liar to maintain the fiction that a dead club was still alive
-in the kid-glove treatment of crooked gamblers, dog-whistling managers, convicted criminals etc etc…
When the cold, clinical, objective facts are laid out, the response has to be a cold, calculated campaign to oust the deceivers and the cheats and those running- dog jackals of Press and radio who have abandoned any sense of journalistic duty in order to pander to the mob.
It wasPaul Mcconville’s-as it was Cicero’s- approach: What does the ‘law’ say in relation to the facts? Find the facts, apply the law.Fairly, objectively, and truthfully.
And as some have commented, if only that had been the desire of the supporters of the dead club, and now the supporters of the illegitimate club- a desire for fairness, and truth, and protection from the scavenging spivs- the whole spirit of Scottish Football would have been hugely uplifted and we could all have got on in truth and reconciliation to better days..
I thank Paul McConville .
40. ianagain says: (53)
December 12, 2013 at 10:51 pm
I mean what was the pension fund doing? Following a punt? Don’t get it.
———————————————————————————————————————————————–That’s one way of putting it……if your not familiar with this part of the story (and apologies if you are)…here’s a little more light reading on the Jerome pension fund trustess ….er punt?
http://action4equalityscotland.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/planet-football.html
Bryce it’s an act I had no responsibility for in the sense that I didn’t commit the act, but I encouraged it by buying tickets and merchandise and generally being happy with the behaviour. And beyond that, I feel bad because the club I call my own and profess admiration for behaved in a way that I don’t feel was admirable.
You get a rough time on here, which I can empathise with, and I don’t want to get on your back at all, but it think the time for rangers fans to shrug their shoulders and say our club did nothing wrong, if there ever was such a time, has long since passed.
Allow me to be clear; I was and am still a Rangers fan, whatever any entity anyone reading this holds that to be. Old and new they are the team I support, and there’s little I enjoy more than going to Ibrox for a game. Like all other clubs we have our problems, some shared and some unique to us. Like few clubs, our mistakes have been under the microscope but that doesn’t change our own culpability for our own actions. There are many rangers haters, there are many online bloggers who are only interested in truth and justice in the game, but neither of these groups have any bearing on the responsibility of rangers for their own actions. If we’d been squeaky clean for 140 years nobody could have brought about the events of the last one / two / three / ten / fourteen years,
RyanGosling says: (129)
December 12, 2013 at 11:25 pm
4 0 Rate This
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Well said Ryan.
Bryce09 – do you include as innocent Ken Overman who was in charge of paying PAYE while CW was there? Or the lady who worked in payroll who knew full well the payments she made in 2009 no longer were being made? Or the folks like Martin Bain who requested shredding of documents? Or the folks who complied and shredded them so HMRC could not get the documentation they had requested? Or any directors like Paul Murray who never mentioned any issues he had with not being listened to by a dictator? Or any fans who roared their approval at the spend 10 for every 5 statement? Or the fans at AGM who never questioned how they could spend 30 million in one summer?
Or the fans who denigrated Hugh Adams who tried to warn RFC-NIL supports of the train wreck upcoming if they continued to support SDM’s financial madness – and got denigrated as a senile old man by the very folks he tried to help.
Or decry folks as failed social workers or corrupt lawyers when their message went against the SDM party line of invincibility? Or is it easier to say a bad man done it and ran away?
Innocent bystanders or enablers?
Bryce i would be interested to see evidence of anyone “demanding” that Rangers fans accept personal culpability for the actions of the club.
I think you are confusing this with the expectation that Rangers fans might acknowledge that their club acted inappropritely in their usage of remuneration schemes and willingly did not comply with player registration requirements.
Bryce I really do understand where you’re coming from, and I’ve wrestled these exact questions with myself. And you’re correct, I didn’t realise the EBT scheme was going on until I read an article Ina paper about the RTC blog and then looked up the blog to see what the article was about. And I also agree that I didn’t encourage the EBT scheme by buying tickets.
But as far as contrition goes, I return to my previous point. I call the club my own, and I want to be proud of them. They’ve done things I don’t like, and yet I claim them to be mine, in the fan sense of the word. Thus I feel vicarious contrition for their actions. If you don’t understand my feeling, and if you don’t agree with it, then fair enough. That is my point of view, and you’re totally entitled to yours. But I’d suggest we take this to PM if you want to discuss further, rather than hogging the blog. And please do message me if you wish, as I think it would do us both good to be on the same page here! It is, after all, a Celtic blog. 😉
Right I’ve googled it and everything and I’m fed up seeing it on here all the time and not knowing what “chapeau” means – SOMEBODY ENLIGHTEN ME BEFORE I SELF COMBUST
RyanGosling says: (131)
December 12, 2013 at 11:57 pm
Comes from Tour de France – Cycling etc
Chapeau
A wonderful French term which is frequently used by cyclists to indicate respect for another’s achievements. By saying “chapeau”, which literally means “hat”, the rider is doffing his cap to a colleague for a good day’s riding.
Ryan : It is, after all, a Celtic blog. 😉
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Wrong! It’s an Arbroath blog that we graciously let all you diddy teams comtribute to from time to time. 😉
Scottish Football needs strong diddy teams.
@Eco Well said mate.. PMcC was 1 in a million and I will miss him and his posts dearly… Best wishes to his family.. HH
Redlichtie- many thanks for that! I’m going to bed laughing! As Kevin Bridges would say, that’s good chaat!
I’m considering submitting a guest blog to TSFM for consideration on the perspectives of a Rangers fan on the debacle of the last few years. Would this be something people would be interested in? Thumbs up for yes, thumbs down for no. If over 50% yes I’ll get to work and see if TSFM considers it worthwhile.
@bryce9a
Now that you are fully aware of Rangers’ history of amoral governance over the last couple of decades, do you now feel that Rangers 1872 should be stripped of some titles or do you still celebrate the memories?
The former wouldn’t be tantamount to contrition, but it would go a long way to having fans of other clubs believe that Rangers fans like yourself acknowledge the wrongdoing done in your club’s name and would like to move on from what was a shameful period in your …err history
bryce9a says: (104)
December 12, 2013 at 11:17 pm
RyanGosling says: (128)
December 12, 2013 at 11:03 pm
If you’re looking back at the EBT scheme and thinking “I wish they hadn’t done that”, that’s a position I share.
That’s not contrition though.
What appears to be demanded of Rangers fans is that we look back and personally express guilt/remorse for acts we quite obviously had no responsibility for (I’m obviously rejecting the “it was our fault because we’re all arrogant right-wing supremacists” notion here, I presume you do to) – if that is where you are at, I find that quite baffling to be honest.
Your conscience must be like a lead weight around your neck if it carries the burdens of crimes you didn’t even commit!
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Bryce
If Rangers did no wrong to others clubs then why do supporters of the other clubs FEEL so wronged and feel wronged not just by the CLUB that you and fellow supporters fervently claim is the same one, but by the self same supporters making that continuity claim who think responsibility for the wrong we felt can be shrugged off like the debt burden?
You cannot have it all ways but that is what it feels like.
Shed debt, deny guilt, deny hurting others.
As a Celtic fan our club was torn almost in two from 2009 to 2011 trying to compete in a financially sustainable fashion whilst Rangers with a support (and that means YOU Bryce) demanded superiority of the men in charge whom you are now putting the blame on.
I cite as a witness Walter Smith
Smith added: “Rangers have 45,000 people coming to watch them and I used to say to the board not to tell people you can’t afford to do something.
“You have to find the money to do it. You can do that if you get into the Champions League because that’s the place where you make money.”
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/435348/Walter-Smith-wants-end-to-Ibrox-board-games
Maybe SDM started it with his for every fiver quote but anyone who questioned it (like Hugh Adams) was ridiculed by most of your support who demanded success at any cost, or more accurately at anyone else’s cost. So was Walter Smith wrong about the 45,000 support and their role in what has happened?
Then there was the Rangers directed media in the year of honest (hah) mistakes. I remember a whole week of Twilight Zone music on The Real Radio phone in to mock Celtic supporters for their paranoia at the establishment (the one that thinks Rangers are part of the fabric of Scottish football). That same station lined up to kick us in the chops after that Poppy Banner, whilst Traynor,( aye how innocent was he?), put the knife in and mocked our protests at the Famine Song..
The only excuse I can make for you Bryce is that having never experienced stuff like that and never being on the receiving end, you can have no idea how that felt like at the time and over a number of years, whilst all the time as we now know we were being cheated by deliberate concealment of irregular payments under the wee tax case and the jury is still out on the irregularity in the big tax cases and are being cheated of the truth still.
Well you have an idea of what that hurt feels like now, but appear afraid to lean into the pain, probably because in your heart of hearts you know that the pain was self inflicted and fear the consequences of admitting the extent and depth of the wrong done to others and so you eschew contrition.
That is a pity because you will never feel the healing powers that follow any contrition that decent folk are looking to see demonstrated.
Contrition is not an absolute condition for forgiveness, but admission that a serious wrong took place is. No wrong doing =nothing to be forgiven.
Once that admission, that acceptance of responsibility is made then decent folk doing so will feel contrite and the decent folk who have been wronged become more ready to forgive and re engage with the wrong doer.
There is nothing to fear from contrition unless you think the only consequence is the never ending guilt you think Ryan is doomed to carry. That is an unfounded fear.
The antidote to guilt is forgiveness, but before its healing power can be experienced wrong and responsibility for doing it has to be admitted, followed by contrition then forgiveness and (for those with a truly saintly nature) reconciliation.
Me? I want rivalry without the poison, but the antidote has to be taken willingly by the guilty, it cannot be forced.
Gibran had it right
” Much of your pain is self-chosen.
It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self.”
Fascinating Auldheid.
My question therefore is, am I forgiven? I hope so. Are the Rangers support forgiven? I hope not, because few have expressed what I consider to be the right approach. Can they be forgiven? Unfortunately that’s not a question you or I can answer I fear, because of this; the vocal rangers fans you hear from will say all that you and I despise. A number, on which I can’t put a figure, will share my view. So where is the reconciliation for Scottish football? I’d suggest it will come when it becomes , like drink driving, socially unacceptable to exist any more. That time is coming, when we can hate each other for purely football reasons. It may take time, but I hope, and genuinely believe, it’s coming.
I like to argue with my friends about why my football team is better than theirs. I like to argue with my friends about how my religion is better than theirs, Muslim, catholic and all the rest. We generally have some stimulating conversations that educate us all, about our own religions, each other’s religions and the meaning of tolerance. And I dearly long for the day when I can do both, completely separately, for one has nothing to do with the other. One day Scottish football will work that out, if it lasts long enough.
bryce9a says: (107)
December 12, 2013 at 11:46 pm
…………………………..
And there in lies the issue…
On one hand we have one fan simply expressing regret that the club he supported did what they did…which created the castrophy we all know today.
And then we have Bryce criticising him for expressing such regret…
You just don’t get it Bryce…expressing regret is not a sign of weakness…it is not a sign of defeat…
It is merely a fan saying the club I supported cheated…and it was wrong…simple.
Standing back with the…nothing to do with us mantra would suggest…cheating is acceptable on the industrial scale it was committed…cheating is acceptable to win things…NO IT IS NOT!
The point is we now know the levels of dishonest cheating that took place…and to date there has been very little if any condemnation of this from the club itself or the fans of that club. Instead there has been a growing manufactured opinion that it was everyone else’s fault as to what happened and if the waters are muddied enough..over time the truth will be lost.
No one is expecting supporters to be marched through the city centre as some sort of show of shame…but neither do we expect those same fans to be talking as though some great victory had been achieved in a typically defiant way when in fact industrial levels of dishonesty..cheating and criminality took place…which was all of that clubs own doing.
Having just re read my last post, I realise I may have said some things about religion that were inflammatory. To be very clear, I am not saying any religion is better than another, I was just trying to give context to some arguments / discussions that I’ve had with friends on separate topics of football and religion. I considered it appropriate in the context of recent discussion. I trust if I’ve been wrong to do so that TSFM will remove my post. If he does not, I beg you to take my comments in the spirit in which whey were meant and not in any negative context.
Ah, Bryce, you have re-joined us, and surprise, surprise you’ve found a new subject. Sadly, though, you are choosing one word of many to try to find something to use to discredit, in some small way at least, the posters on this blog.
You have suggested that we here are DEMANDING contrition from Rangers, TRFC or their supporters, but no one has ‘demanded’ any such thing. It was I who introduced the concept today in a post that mentioned the word once, see below, and one or two others took it up, though no one, but you, has turned it into a major issue.
The point I was trying to make, and no doubt it passed you by in your haste to chastise us, was that this lack of contrition, amongst other things, has helped to create the situation where the spivs job, to milk the Rangers support (and sundry others) has been made so much easier by blinding you all to what was going on. This lack of contrition, and the other undesirable traits unique to Rangers, TRFC and their supporters, has prevented those who would be leaders from seeing the wood from the trees, time and time again.
No one is looking for sackcloth and ashes. No one is looking for an apology from anyone other than those in power at Rangers, and also those complicit at the SFA and SPL. Just an acknowledgement from a few that bad deeds have been done, and not just the BTC and WTC, by a large number of people within Ibrox, that you revere. By not acknowledging guilt (of the club) further vile actions have taken place by men representing your club, blind to what all those who live outside a world of ‘Rangersness’ consider decent and honourable, because they ‘are the people’, and are unable to conceive a world in which they are not lord and master of everyone else. Believe me, the time for contrition is well and truly gone, and the opportunity lost. The same character faults, that led to this lack of contrition, led to Rangers Downfall. You are not learning.
Part of the post referred to:-
‘It is one of the saddest things about this whole saga, that no person, or body, has come forward showing any of the contrition, nor qualities of leadership and genuine dignity, that most felt necessary to create a truly new Rangers, prepared to work hard to build a team/club more suited to the 21st century, rather than the 19th.’
Allyjambo says: (723)
December 13, 2013 at 1:11 am
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Well said. Now go away Bryce and stop being so disruptive. There must be other better paid jobs out there.