Past the Event Horizon

Avatar ByBig Pink

Past the Event Horizon

On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.

The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.

I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.

There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.

That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.

That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.

Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.

The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.

The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.

If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.

About the author

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Big Pink administrator

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

3,926 Comments so far

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davythelotionPosted on12:02 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Why was the AGM held outside? Where was the rangers man who offered to pay for the Hydro? Now that the dust is beginning to settle on 120 days of inactivity it becomes ever clearer that the two most significant things are:
The board retained the services of Stockbridge, despite his less than useless performance to date.
The shareholders don’t trust the board with a further share issue.
Who in the press is willing to ask questions about sevco?

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100BJDPosted on12:04 pm - Dec 21, 2013


neepheid says: (942)

December 21, 2013 at 9:11 am

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From the Scotsman-
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/majority-of-rangers-support-back-board-somers-1-3241022

Here’s a wee excerpt that made me smile-

“Somers, whose position was made permanent last month after he was given the chairmanship on an interim period, dismissed the fans’ red card display at the last home game against Ayr United.

In the 18th and 72nd minutes of the match, the majority of the 45,227 crowd held up cards which had written on them ‘get out of our club’ and ‘vote out the current board’.

“I wasn’t at that particular one but I have had several emails from people who said they were led to believe that the red card display was about apartheid so there seems to be some confusion among the fans as to what they were displaying,” said Somers.

I think that Somers is not yet culturally acclimatised to all things Rangers. He may be in for a bit of a shock.
—————————————————————————————————————————————–
Neep,

As I have commented before Martin Lampshire of Daniel Stewart is Charles Greens mate and has featured in all his deals. He is operating Greens instructions from the inside….really obvious…google Green…check his deals and see who was behind them. They even worked together at Hichens.

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weescotsman

weescotsmanPosted on12:17 pm - Dec 21, 2013


toby says: (95)
December 21, 2013 at 11:05 am
7 2 Rate This

Tis the season to be jolly…
So for the festivities, a cocktail…..

Jim Traynor seems to have been airbrushed out all together, wasn’t he away to write a book or something, or is that now canned as part of his “leaving agreement..” ?

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Tic 6709Posted on12:44 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Toby cocktail…..Dignity with a twist.

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Caveat Emptor

Caveat EmptorPosted on12:50 pm - Dec 21, 2013


theoldshed says: (51)
December 21, 2013 at 11:28 am
8 0 Rate This

Can anyone remember who currently owns the club’s history?
***************************************
Mr. Charles owns the history. He bought it!!
On the South Africa / Ticketus connection, plausible. Very plausible.
As for the cocktail, it’s gotta be The Blue Phoenix! Available at a bar near you, but don’t haud back, it may run out of fizz in the near future,

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Tic 6709Posted on12:57 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Caveat Emptor says: (95)

December 21, 2013 at 12:50 pm
=========================
The Winner.
A Blue Phoenix…with a Dignity chaser.

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Caveat Emptor

Caveat EmptorPosted on1:15 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Or for the more dignified quaffer, The Brown Brogue!
For our teetotal chums, howzabout The Paul Murray. Looks like the real thing but has no substance.
In the less salubrious hostelries (on PRW), the usual haunts of your average berr, a sure-fire winner would be The Ally Swally. Expensive, doesn’t deliver what it promises, but, what the hell! It’s the greatest, bestest ever drink in the history of ……. well, everything! Geeza double pal!

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GeronimosCadillacPosted on1:31 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Angus1983 says: (1302)
December 21, 2013 at 9:55 am
neepheid says:
December 21, 2013 at 9:11 am

“I wasn’t at that particular one but I have had several emails from people who said they were led to believe that the red card display was about apartheid so there seems to be some confusion among the fans as to what they were displaying,” said Somers.
——
… and Mr Somers quoth thus whilst his face was straight?

Now, I realise that South Africa may still have related problems, but a protest against apartheid 20 years after it was abolished? Mr Somers, thy neck is truly brass.

Alfie Conn – in my mind, he was a Celtic player. First post-WWII plaar to play for both cheeks, says Wikipedia. I had him down for Hearts too, but that was apparently his dad. 🙂

He also played for Motherwell from 81-84. I think it was after he left Celtic. We used to get some decent Celtic veterans in those days with a few years left in them. Wilson, Davidson but not Edvaldsson.

I’m currently liking the King/Ticketus connection theory.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on1:32 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Chapeau Monsieur Verde

This time last year the biggest puzzle for me was how would Charles “The Gob” Green manage to leave Ibrox after the lock-in period with all the cash and having shafted the followers – without employing a string of safe houses across the globe. Well he did it so skillfully that few have even noticed how skillfully he did it. Chapeau Monsieur Verde.

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Greenock JackPosted on1:40 pm - Dec 21, 2013


100bjd
Yes, DS have links with Green.
On top of what you talk about there are more links and working relationships been established between the two over the past years, eg. Nova Resources.
Then have a look at the dates when Green was appointed as a consultant and when DS were appointed as brokers, when Green’s notifiable stake was declared no more and when DS came in as Nomad.

Then you come to the links DS have with Imran Ahmad via Adam Wilson.

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100BJDPosted on1:46 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Jack

Charles Green’s “point man” on many of his city deals has been Martin Lampshire………now Head of Corporate Broking of Daniel Stewart Securities since December 2008, and now nomad to TRIFC and reputed to be the appointee of their new independent directors. Mr. Lampshire joined Daniel Stewart from Religare Hichens Harrison, Plc where he was Head of Corporate Broking and Sales. He was the nomad for Chico on the ill fated Panceltica PLC disaster, and prior to this was a colleague with Chico at Religare Hichens (then just Hichens).
Chico first came across Martin in his Medical Solutions PLC days in the late 1990’s when Martin was at their nomad Teather and Greenwood. In 2001 again with Martin at Teather and Greenwood Chico floated Proactive Sports Management PLC. In 2004 Chico, now back at Medical Solutions raised cash by a rights issue. The nomad was Martin Lampshire who had by now moved to Charles Stanley.
The point here is that Chico and Martin Lampshire are allies. Let us not forget that Chico was also associated with the much debated Nova Resources Ltd whose nomad is………Martin Lampshire! So when I saw neepheads post on the TRIFC director selection it was pretty easy to see that Charles Green is still running the show.

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Angus1983Posted on1:56 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Caveat Emptor says: (96)
December 21, 2013 at 12:50 pm

Can anyone remember who currently owns the club’s history?
***************************************
Mr. Charles owns the history. He bought it!!
——

10:25 in, i.e. right at the end. Mr Green owns the history, because he says so.

The rest of it is quite entertaiing too, though. I miss Mr Green and the bollocks he talks.

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Tic 6709Posted on2:15 pm - Dec 21, 2013


GeronimosCadillac

December 21, 2013 at 1:31 pm
==============================
I said some time ago on here that I thought D King was behind the Ticketus deal.
There is something at the back of my mind about the deal.I think the money was paid into the Ticketus account a day or two before the MBB finalised the takeover.
I.m nearly sure the info was posted on RTC.The sum was £ 20 million.
=============
100BJD. But who exactly is at the back of Yorkie ?

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m.c.f.c.Posted on2:18 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Angus – that’s an absolute classic – essential viewing for every follower and bampot alike – seems so long ago now – those were the good old days 🙂

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Greenock JackPosted on2:19 pm - Dec 21, 2013


100bjd

Yes, I was aware of that and the Somers revelation that DS recommended his appointment helps explain his words and actions at Ibrox up until now. The revelation has come now, post AGM.
Attention is on ‘Apartheid’ when it should be on this.

Green re-joined as consultant 2/8/13 and DS got the gig as Brokers a couple of days later.
An annoucement about Green no longer having a notifiable interest came the same day DS took over from Cenkos.

For Ahmad/Wilson/DS, take a read of these

http://www.growthcompany.co.uk/features/1609633/in-the-hotseat-by-miles-nolan.thtml

http://www.cityam.com/article/city-veteran-adam-wilson-takes-helm-daniel-stewart

http://www.danielstewart.co.uk/Home/Investor_relations/DSS_plc_-_AIM_Rule_26/default.aspx

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Tif FinnPosted on2:20 pm - Dec 21, 2013


This tells you a lot of what you need to know about attitudes.

There is a thread on follow follow with regard how people feel about what is happening to their club, particularly the people who own it, who are running it and where it is going. Basically asking people how they feel about it all.

A reply from someone with over 13,000 posts starts …

“I felt worse when we signed Mojo.”.

It got me to thinking about the protests when a high profile player, of a certain tradition signed. I can assure you the protests were much more vocal and public than they are just now.

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ekt1m

ekt1mPosted on2:28 pm - Dec 21, 2013


The post by Timomouse at 9.00am of “Football Life” is a very good analysis of the aftermath of the AGM, Well worthy of being a new blog in my opinion. Edit- To be clear, I mean to take over from “Past the Event Horizon” as there is much to be debated on the outcome.

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Broadswordcallingdannybhoy

BroadswordcallingdannybhoyPosted on2:37 pm - Dec 21, 2013


bad capt madman says: (301)
December 21, 2013 at 11:29 am
======================================

A slow uncomfortable blue screw?

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neepheidPosted on3:34 pm - Dec 21, 2013


100BJD says: (112)
December 21, 2013 at 12:04 pm

Neep,

As I have commented before Martin Lampshire of Daniel Stewart is Charles Greens mate and has featured in all his deals. He is operating Greens instructions from the inside….really obvious…google Green…check his deals and see who was behind them. They even worked together at Hichens.
==========================

I don’t need any convincing that all the actors in this panto, from Whyte to Green to Stockbridge to Somers, and all points in between (remember Ahmed, anyone?) belong to a close knit community of experienced asset strippers. You and others on here have done some exceptional research into the individuals involved and the links between them.

My current fixation is in the genesis of this, Sir David Murray, who after (no doubt expensive) due diligence, handed RFC to Whyte for one pound, only to find out afterwards that Whyte had been disqualified as a director in the UK. Some due diligence, given that a cursory google search was all that was required to establish the facts.

So SDM was “duped”. Oh really? Well, the band played “believe it if you like”, but the real joke is that 99% of “Ra Peepil” really do believe it.

Back to my world, then, in which SDM knew exactly who he was handing the keys to Ibrox to. It is quite clear that the Ticketus deal was in place before the keys were handed over. SDM must have been involved in that in my opinion, as that deal was essential, because Whyte was not bringing a red cent to the table, and the bank had to be paid off before anything went ahead.

Clearly, Whyte was SDM’s man, and clearly Green was Whyte’s man. Everyone since has been Green’s man. Does that mean they are also Whyte’s men, and does that not mean that they are also, all of them, SDM’s men?

I suppose that depends on whether you believe that Green really shafted Whyte on the big switcheroo to Sevco Scotland, and whether you believe that Whye duped SDM. The last one really does take a bit of believing, in my opinion. As regards Green shafting Whyte, I’d be more convinced if Whyte actually got a case into court, rather than just issuing warning letters. Funding really shouldn’t be an issue- surely some law firm would take this on as a no win/ no fee job?

And then to Ticketus. I see that Dave King is in the frame as being the funder. But I thought it was established here or on RTC over a year back, that Ticketus is just an arm of Octopus, which puts millions or billions of rich individuals’ money into tax-efficient products? Ticketus have actually acted in the courts to try to get their money back from Whyte. That is what I would expect from a normal commercial organisation. Yes, they screwed up on a Scots Law point, but they are trying to get their investors’ money back. I don’t see Dave King in there, to be honest.

I’m happy to be corrected on any of this, I have been told on here before that there is no way that SDM is still involved in any of this. Maybe it’s Green, maybe it’s Whyte, maybe it’s even SDM, Will we ever find out? Only if a criminal case involving one of the players ever goes to trial, I guess.

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LUGOSI99

LUGOSI99Posted on3:37 pm - Dec 21, 2013


A cocktail containing white rum, golden rum, 151-proof rum, apricot brandy, pineapple juice, lime juice and garnished with a cherry is called a Zombie.
Just saying.
Seemingly its alternative name is a Skull-puncher. That would explain a lot of the actings and utterances over the last year and a bit. I don’t know what the explanation is for before then.

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100BJDPosted on3:58 pm - Dec 21, 2013


neepheid says: (943)

December 21, 2013 at 3:34 pm

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100BJD says: (112)
December 21, 2013 at 12:04 pm

Neep,

As I have commented before Martin Lampshire of Daniel Stewart is Charles Greens mate and has featured in all his deals. He is operating Greens instructions from the inside….really obvious…google Green…check his deals and see who was behind them. They even worked together at Hichens.
==========================

I don’t need any convincing that all the actors in this panto, from Whyte to Green to Stockbridge to Somers, and all points in between (remember Ahmed, anyone?) belong to a close knit community of experienced asset strippers. You and others on here have done some exceptional research into the individuals involved and the links between them.
—————————————————————————————————————————————
I remember Ahmad very well……I also totally believe that SDM knew exactly how this would work..If you remember Charlotte gave us sight of an investigative due diligence report commissioned by AlistairJohnston. This document shredded Whyte although when discussed at the board meeting SDM used his block vote to disregard it. Johnson then tried his plan B which was to ring fence the debtor book as part of the deal. The debtor book on this deal was the season ticket money. Alistair Johnston and Paul Murray knew exactly what was going down…they just could not stop it and I presume had no alternative solution, as with the big tax case on the horizon there was no alternatives out there. I would bet that SDM had been trying for years to offload. SDM is no dupe….he was complicit! On the Whyte deal I think he got shafted by Ahmad……Green is not that clever technically although very ruthless. Lots more to come yet although as I said yesterday how is Mr Wallace going to keep the ship afloat?

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Madbhoy24941Posted on4:18 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Tif Finn says: (1053)

December 21, 2013 at 2:20 pm

———————–

Wouldn’t you love to see those guys doing an honest (free from fear) send up of the last 2 years of Scottish football…..

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theoldshedPosted on4:41 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Angus – that’s an absolute classic – essential viewing for every follower and bampot alike – seems so long ago now – those were the good old days
——————————–
Brilliant, what a poker face Mr G has..a robotic lack of self consciousness
The closing stages of the interview stands as a memorial to investigative journalism MSM style:

“Do you think the titles will leave Ibrox?”
“Well they won;t leave while I’m there, I bought them, I own them..”
“Charles Green, thanks very much for joining us this evening”

So, does this mean the titles are now safely stowed away in a chateau in France?

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on5:01 pm - Dec 21, 2013


I can attest to this having sampled it a few weeks ago.
In the American bar in the Savoy in London one of he most famous cocktails is:

The Corpse Reviver number 2

Disnae work/ better with an egg piece and a pint of lager.

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Caveat Emptor

Caveat EmptorPosted on5:19 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Angus1983 says: (1303)
December 21, 2013 at 1:56 pm
14 0 Rate This
I miss Mr Green and the bollocks he talks.
*******************************************************8
Whit? You mean he was fibbing!? You have to admit though, he was pure quality.
Apple iBrox.
Dallas Cowboys (I’ll show you t’e-mail).
The SPL stole our money.
The history’s mine, I bought it.
Imaginary line on the pavement (berrs actually looking down!).
War chest.
Let’s compare balance sheets.
Champion’s League music.
Grandkids will inherit my shares.
Unique interpretation of French.
3 or 4 billionaires.
Raised billions on AIM.
Race relations.
Fastest centre forward ever, with the biggest ‘ands!
Somewhere in his ramblings he upfront admitted that he conned CW and the berrs, MSM & SFA actually feted this guy! Unbelievable!
I must admit, if I ever met Charles, I would buy him a drink. Probably end up being left with his tab but it would be worth it.

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Danish PastryPosted on5:58 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Caveat Emptor says: (97)
December 21, 2013 at 5:19 pm
3 0 Rate This
———

I still believe his exit was manufactured, as was Imran’s. They must have made enough by then for Charles to start seriously chateau hunting in France. Be funny if he turned up with the lovely Jasmin on Home and Away sometime.

So who owns the titles, history and goodwill now? RIFC or TRFC?

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Paulmac2Posted on6:28 pm - Dec 21, 2013


100BJD says: (114)
December 21, 2013 at 3:58 pm
…………………………………………….

The very same David Murray who gave this interview to our very own Hugh Keevins on the 18th of August 2008…

By Hugh Keevins
I was hours away from selling Rangers, reveals Sir David Murray
18 Aug 2008 00:00

SIR DAVID MURRAY has revealed he was hours away from selling Rangers … but defended himself against the Ibrox fans who say it’s time he got out of the club.

The chairman was in talks with a group of businessmen a year ago and legal documents for the sale of the club had been drawn up.

But Murray pulled back from the brink of selling up because he didn’t feel Rangers would be falling into the right hands.

He said: “We were all ready to go. Everything was pretty much agreed until I said, ‘Look gentleman, how are you going to run this club?’

“I’m sitting there with all the legal documents in front of me and they say, ‘We’ll carve this up and we’ll sell that off’.

“I said, ‘Enough, we’re not doing the deal’ and walked out.

“It wasn’t for Rangers because they didn’t want to take the club forward in a football way. They saw property angles.”

Ironically, it’s Murray who has been accused of being an asset stripper since the defeat from Kaunas in the Champions League and the sale of Carlos Cuellar.

But the chairman has figures to prove his reunion with Walter Smith has destroyed that argument.

A total of s25million to spend on transfers and signing-on fees has brought in 25 players.

And Murray has also detailed the ones that got away and others that were never on the cards. He said: “James McFadden was meant to be signing from Birmingham City. He’s on s32,000 a week and would cost s6m to buy.

“We don’t do s32,000 a week and s6m deals. It’s total rubbish.

“I didn’t want to sell Cuellar but the deal is 5m euros up front and 5m Euros in 12 months’ time. I didn’t want to sell him but I had to.

“The fans must look at the financial underpinning the Murray Group has done at Rangers.

“Let’s be under no illusions, it’s cost us s100m. Unless this club is backed by proper cash, Rangers will have to downsize. There’s an economic crisis out there.

“People should take a minute to sit down and reflect.”
………………………………….

Instead he sold it to Craig Whyte furrra pound…no questions asked no background checks…just a hand shake and a pound….and sat back and watched him destroy the club till it died…

David (am gonna have a crack at Lumley) Murray and Dave King….2 peas in a pod…glib and shameless.

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Lord WobblyPosted on7:28 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Toby’s cocktail(s):

Green disnae Sharetruths (Chartreuse)?
Threadbear Blue Blazer?
Orange Sunset?

Unfortunately the blue pitcher was unavailable.

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Danish PastryPosted on8:00 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Away from all things Ibrox, cracking banner among Crystal Palace fans today. It read:

“£55 for Chelsea away – 9 hours minimum wage – Is this the working man’s game?”

Good question.

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on8:09 pm - Dec 21, 2013


And he thinks Faddys on 32k a week He He He He

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Lord WobblyPosted on8:10 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Angus1983 says: (1303)
December 21, 2013 at 1:56 pm
22 0 Rate This

I miss Mr Green and the bollocks he talks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There has been a seemingly never ending conveyor belt of nonsensical proclamations from numerous Ibrox sources spanning both clubs. My ‘favourite’ is McCoist (one of the few that has actually been a part of both clubs!). The way he swishes and sways with whichever way the wind is blowing is a wonder to behold. And yet the fans of the new club seem to love him just as much as the last lot. Jack Irvine could learn a lot from McCoist.

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ecobhoyPosted on8:23 pm - Dec 21, 2013


I noticed a mention of Green’s early days and Medical Solutions and what seems like a long time ago I did this piece on his early days.

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/could-charlie-greens-rangers-float-turn-into-a-lead-lifebelt-by-ecojon/

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Lord WobblyPosted on8:27 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1823)
December 21, 2013 at 8:00 pm
3 0 Rate This
Away from all things Ibrox, cracking banner among Crystal Palace fans today. It read:
“£55 for Chelsea away – 9 hours minimum wage – Is this the working man’s game?”
Good question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is an excellent question Danish. One that many people have been asking for years. Another good question would be ‘Who cares?’. Club boards? Some have shown cognisance of the problem, but not enough to bring prices down to an acceptable level, even when the terraces have huge gaps between supporters.

Alas, it is not confined to football.

But the biggest problem is that there are still people prepared to pay preposterous amounts of money to turn up. Usually to be treated like sh!t when they get there.

Having spoken with a number of friends and acquaintances in Scotland, a growing number are totally disillusioned with football. The pricing is certainly part of the reason. However, the obvious disdain that the authorities have for common decency and what is right and wrong is, overwhelmingly, the overriding factor.

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theoldshedPosted on8:59 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Something that surprises me is that a rival Rangers has not yet been established, free from the shackles of RIFC, and the mystery figures who control it. All it would take would be for Walter to take the lead, Ally to jump ship, and a rent free period at Hampden arranged by CO. A reason to revoke the existing licence of the club currently playing at Ibrox would surely soon be found if a Real Rangers was launched. I would predict that such a club, even starting afresh in the 4th tier next season (or even the season after that), would have 30,000 season ticket holders. The continuation of the history point would have to be side-stepped initially, no doubt followed by a “claim” on the history to be made and endorsed by the authorities at a later date. I can only conclude that the the spivs know too much about too many of the likely leaders/facilitators of a “Real Rangers” for this to happen.

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Danish PastryPosted on9:02 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Lord Wobbly says: (987)
December 21, 2013 at 8:27 pm
5 0 Rate This
———-
Aye, there’s a lot of discontent under the surface of English football. You can’t help thinking the EPL is a bubble waiting to burst. Listening to the phone-ins there are often calls from fans who want a return to sanity. What’s going on north of the border with top clubs cutting back is a path you feel many English clubs may have tread in years to come.

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Bill1903

Bill1903Posted on9:22 pm - Dec 21, 2013


theoldshed says: (53)
December 21, 2013 at 8:59 pm
4 0 Rate This

Something that surprises me is that a rival Rangers has not yet been established, free from the shackles of RIFC, and the mystery figures who control it. All it would take would be for Walter to take the lead, Ally to jump ship, and a rent free period at Hampden arranged by CO. A reason to revoke the existing licence of the club currently playing at Ibrox would surely soon be found if a Real Rangers was launched. I would predict that such a club, even starting afresh in the 4th tier next season (or even the season after that), would have 30,000 season ticket holders. The continuation of the history point would have to be side-stepped initially, no doubt followed by a “claim” on the history to be made and endorsed by the authorities at a later date. I can only conclude that the the spivs know too much about too many of the likely leaders/facilitators of a “Real Rangers” for this to happen.
————————————–
Not a chance of this happening
Ibrox and the 140 year history means everything to them.
There’s no appetite among the Rangers support to start a new clean club without the baggage

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Angus1983Posted on9:22 pm - Dec 21, 2013


OT …

Lord Wobbly says:
December 21, 2013 at 8:27 pm

Alas, it is not confined to football. But the biggest problem is that there are still people prepared to pay preposterous amounts of money to turn up. Usually to be treated like sh!t when they get there.
——

cf. £70-odd to see Rush at the SECC. Bad enough if you live in Glasgow, but anyone else has travelling and possibly accommodation costs on top of that.

For financial reasons (i.e. a missus with a distinctly non-rock’n’roll outlook on life … “Why don’t you just listen to the CD?” 🙄 ), it was with a heavy heart that I didn’t go the last two times. 🙁

Wait til she notices out how many new bass guitars have appeared upstairs since she last looked. I’ll be for the high jump then. As long as I keep getting black ones, I’ve more chance of getting away with it. 🙂

But yes, it seems that prices for entertainment options are being pushed towards the maximum possible. Even the pictures cost £20 for me and the bairn the other day (though the 3-D MIckey Mouse short that preceded “Frozen” was almost worth the price of admission by itself, I have to say).

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Lord WobblyPosted on9:56 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Angus1983 says: (1304)
December 21, 2013 at 9:22 pm
3 0 Rate This
OT …
Lord Wobbly says:
December 21, 2013 at 8:27 pm
Alas, it is not confined to football. But the biggest problem is that there are still people prepared to pay preposterous amounts of money to turn up. Usually to be treated like sh!t when they get there.
——
cf. £70-odd to see Rush at the SECC. Bad enough if you live in Glasgow, but anyone else has travelling and possibly accommodation costs on top of that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I paid £5 to see them at Ingliston in both ’81 and ’83 (both nights!).

http://www.edinburghgigarchive.com/page10.htm

I also spent £17.50 to go to the Reading Festival in ’83. For the entire weekend. Including camping.

1983 must have been a quiet year football-wise!

😀

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jimlarkinPosted on9:59 pm - Dec 21, 2013


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/video-bt-sport-coverage-2013-2949503?

According to the ever accurate Daily Record, the event on the 19th
…was the CLUB’s – AGM.

You learn something new everyday !

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justshatered

justshateredPosted on9:59 pm - Dec 21, 2013


theoldshed says: (53)
December 21, 2013 at 8:59 pm
4 0 Rate This

……. soon be found if a Real Rangers was launched. I would predict that such a club, even starting afresh in the 4th tier next season (or even the season after that), would have 30,000 season ticket holders. ……

And there is the rub. They can’t start in the 4th tier. Did not part of the league reconstruction involve a pyramid system where teams are now demoted out of the 4th tier and replaced.
If that is the case where do ‘The The Rangers’ start.
Still I’m sure the next creation will make even more friends on the their journey…………………………………… aye right.

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Lord WobblyPosted on10:05 pm - Dec 21, 2013


jimlarkin says: (710)
December 21, 2013 at 9:59 pm
1 0 Rate This
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/video-bt-sport-
coverage-2013-2949503 ?
According to the ever accurate Daily Record, the event on the 19th
…was the CLUB’s – AGM.
You learn something new everyday !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So all of the voting was a nonsense then (a statement, not a question!).

Do you think anyone should be told? 😉

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fergussingsthebluesPosted on10:39 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Lord Wobbly says:
December 21, 2013 at 9:56 pm

Angus1983 says:
December 21, 2013 at 9:22 pm
3 0 Rate This
OT …
Lord Wobbly says:
December 21, 2013 at 8:27 pm
Alas, it is not confined to football. But the biggest problem is that there are still people prepared to pay preposterous amounts of money to turn up. Usually to be treated like sh!t when they get there.
——
cf. £70-odd to see Rush at the SECC. Bad enough if you live in Glasgow, but anyone else has travelling and possibly accommodation costs on top of that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I paid £5 to see them at Ingliston in both ’81 and ’83 (both nights!).

http://www.edinburghgigarchive.com/page10.htm

I also spent £17.50 to go to the Reading Festival in ’83. For the entire weekend. Including camping.

1983 must have been a quiet year football-wise!

===========================================

LW,

Ah! 1983! Apart from the obvious wind up to Angus and Aberdeens most glorious and most well deserved night ever in Gothenburg, I think you know it was far from quiet!

It was also the year of:

Bob Paisley retiring with a League and League Cup double for liverpool

Jim McLean won the Scottish Premier League for Dundee Utd

Kenny Dalglish was voted both England’s Writers and Players Player of the Year

Charlie Nicholas was voted both Scotland’s Writers and Players Player of the Year

Lutther Blisset being top goalscorer in England

Aston Villa won the European Super Cup beating Barcelona 3-1 on aggregate

And more importantly, it was the Year of:

“And Smith must Score!!!!!!!!!!!”

Ah! 1983! I remember it well!

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Lord WobblyPosted on10:46 pm - Dec 21, 2013


fergussingstheblues says: (119)
December 21, 2013 at 10:39 pm
0 0 Rate This
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Forgive me. I’d forgotten about Luther!

😯

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fergussingsthebluesPosted on11:24 pm - Dec 21, 2013


Lord Wobbly says:
December 21, 2013 at 10:46 pm

fergussingstheblues says: (119)
December 21, 2013 at 10:39 pm
0 0 Rate This
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Forgive me. I’d forgotten about Luther!

====================================

He was a good player, scoring 27 goals that year. Lineker was 2nd with 26.

As long as you didn’t forget your wife’s Birthday in 1983, as I did, your forgiven!

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weescotsman

weescotsmanPosted on12:17 am - Dec 22, 2013


====================================

He was a good player, scoring 27 goals that year. Lineker was 2nd with 26.

As long as you didn’t forget your wife’s Birthday in 1983, as I did, your forgiven!

Blimy…… have you been reminded every year since then ?

Most memorable thing for me in 1983 was starting my first proper full time job instead of crappy training schemes. For a huge wage of £80 a week which was double what I’d been getting on the training so I was rich…….

p.s. long time reader both here and Scots Law Thoughts but not much of a poster…..

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on12:50 am - Dec 22, 2013


weescotsman says: (3)
December 22, 2013 at 12:17 am

Well, did she forgive you???????

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peterjung

peterjungPosted on12:50 am - Dec 22, 2013


jimlarkin says: (710)
December 21, 2013 at 9:59 pm
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/video-bt-sport-coverage-2013-2949503?
According to the ever accurate Daily Record, the event on the 19th
…was the CLUB’s – AGM.
You learn something new everyday !
____________________________________________________________________________________
Jimlarkin the link is no longer working…..

However when perusing the Daily Record website I did catch the following listed as an opinion piece:

“Hugh Keevins on the Celtic boards problems”

.. . unbelievable…..
😯

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Paulmac2Posted on2:39 am - Dec 22, 2013


jimlarkin says: (710)
December 21, 2013 at 9:59 pm
………………………..

To be honest Jim..there are a number of STV debates from 2012 that discuss such things…there is even one where Neil Patey states that the new club would be a pheonix creation…so I guess it must be difficult for a paper to keep track of whether the AGM is being held by the club or the holding Company?

Why would anyone challenge the club’s directors at an AGM on it’s finances…when allegedly it has no finances….oh what a tangled web…

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Danish PastryPosted on7:52 am - Dec 22, 2013


jimlarkin says: (710)
December 21, 2013 at 9:59 pm
12 1 Rate This

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/video-bt-sport-coverage-2013-2949503?

According to the ever accurate Daily Record, the event on the 19th
…was the CLUB’s – AGM.

You learn something new everyday !
————-

The DR need look no further than RIFC’s website:

http://rangers.g3dhosting.com/regulatory_news_article/363

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Danish PastryPosted on8:23 am - Dec 22, 2013


There’s a post-AGM interview with Graham Wallace via an RTV link on the page below. He comes across as the benign face of the company. An affable man but says surprising little over 10-plus minutes. I suppose he relies on the facts and figures given to him by Stockbridge & Co. He’s obviously paid to be upbeat and optimistic, however, you wonder if he’s looked ‘under the bonnet’ for himself yet, or just been told what’s there.

http://www.rangersinternationalfootballclub.com

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Danish PastryPosted on9:11 am - Dec 22, 2013


Good question @carlisle. Are TRFC the only club in Scotland with this kind of corporate structure?

Traditionally, we’ve all taken It for granted that the club and the business running the club were one and the same thing, bigger clubs having just morphed into more complex sports businesses.

Otherwise, a few interestingly cautious articles about Wallace in The Scotsman viz a viz his ability to rein in the overspending-for-success-come-what-may culture ingrained at Ibrox. Here’s a quote from one of them:

Supporters may think they like the idea of Wallace because he hasn’t had time to do much wrong, but they might not be so taken by him if he does right by the club. As a rule, Rangers chief executives don’t do walking away from overspend or grandiose pronouncements. Wallace appears to be intent on doing both.

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Cygnus X-1Posted on9:47 am - Dec 22, 2013


Re Angus & Lord Wobbly
Finally this blog discusses something of real value & entertainment. Not that extinct, small & unimportant football team from the south side of Glasgow,but the greatest rock band in history of course:Rush

I have willingly paid more than £70 for a ticket to see this band having followed them throughout Europe & they have never under performed, while retaining their credibility, reputation & integrity within the insane & chaotic world of rock music.
Now what’s this got to do with Scottish Football I hear you ask, not a lot unless you consider that being able to retain your dignity in the face of traumatic events is the best indicator of the quality of person involved?

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theoldshedPosted on9:53 am - Dec 22, 2013


Not a chance of this happening
Ibrox and the 140 year history means everything to them.
There’s no appetite among the Rangers support to start a new clean club without the baggage
———————————-
Do you think they’d rather have a club condemned to a future in a financial strait-jacket playing out of Ibrox than one powering its way up through the leagues playing at Hampden, with Walter, Ally, and other assorted blue knights leading the way. I’m not so sure. I agree with you on the history, but according to the authorities that travels with them wherever they go so, as I mentioned a “claim” to it would no doubt me made by a club with real Rangers men at the helm, and endorsed by the authorities in due course. I could be wrong, but I still think the reason the waters aren’t even being tested for such a venture is that those with Rangers/the supporters interests at heart have possibly got too close with people who would happily hang them out to dry if they disrupted the spiv’s agenda, and formed a rival club. And regarding the pyramid system possibly preventing a new, new Rangers entering the 4th tier (or any other tier for that matter), has anyone in authority bothered too much about the rules to date?

On the subject of ownership of Ibrox (just in case this affects the strategy of any spivs or Rangers supporters) the scottish govt has recently published proposals for a Bill which would allow communities in cities to register a right to buy properties “closely connected” to local inhabitants. This would give local communities a right of first refusal to purchase properties which have a value to the community, at open market value, should the owner decide to sell. There is no indication yet when this might be introduced, but it could be within the next 2 years. Similar legislation already exists in England, and fans of premiership teams have already registered an interest to buy their club’s stadia, in the event that the owner decides to sell.

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neepheidPosted on10:10 am - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1827)
December 22, 2013 at 9:11 am
2 0 Rate This

Are TRFC the only club in Scotland with this kind of corporate structure?
==============================
Apart from Celtic, they are the only team in Scotland owned by a listed PLC (ready to be corrected, though). I believe that the Celtic PLC runs the football business directly, rather than through a subsidiary.

However I see nothing strange in the corporate structure adopted at Ibrox, in fact it is the way I would set it up if I was doing it myself. It gives clear separation between the business side and the football side, and in my view, football may be called a business, but it is more usually just a money pit. Where I would differ from the Ibrox model is the idea of leaving the properties in the football company, TRFC Ltd, rather than holding the property in a separate property subsidiary of the PLC, just as has been done with the “trading” side, which runs the retail operation.

The reason I would separate out the property side is so that a commercial rent could be charged to TRFC Ltd. This would then allow the commercial profits or losses of the football side to be properly measured and represented in the PLC accounts, and greatly simplify matters if the PLC decided to dump the football side.

By the way, TRFC Ltd is a private company, and as such is not required to hold an AGM. Since all its shares are held by the PLC, such a procedure would in any case be meaningless.

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)Posted on10:15 am - Dec 22, 2013


Morning all.
Just want to say thanks to ICT and Aberdeen.
If last nights game is an example of Armageddon then bring it on.

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Danish PastryPosted on10:30 am - Dec 22, 2013


theoldshed says: (54)
December 22, 2013 at 9:53 am
1 0 Rate This
————

You know oldshed, when liquidation became inevitable I had thought that an alternative Rangers was a real possibility. The fans of other clubs in crisis have set up alternatives that work. I confess, though, to being out of touch with the mindset on the ground, and the fact that tens of millions of supporters’ cash has been pumped into the sinking ship, instead of into a supporters’ alternative, is simply beyond comprehension.

The scenario you paint was entirely possible, and I reckon it would have been met with some goodwill from other clubs. I had also imagined that the groups who attend Ibrox with a political agenda, particularly those who turn up on ferries, would lose interest in a wee non-triumphalist club, starting from scratch.

An opportunity lost indeed, thanks also in part to the SFA rail-roading newco into position regardless of the consequences. Now Graham Wallace is talking about downsizing. Though he admits that for all his bright ideas and common sense, he can only make recommendations to a board on which he is outnumbered.

I now have serious doubts about whether such a fragmented support, containing so many groups with vastly different views and ideologies, can ever start an alternative club. Looks like Wallace’s international investors waiting for a stable TRFC to pour their money into is the only hope, either them or those pots of gold at rainbow’s end Stockbridge talks about.

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scottc

scottcPosted on10:39 am - Dec 22, 2013


Cygnus X-1 says: (7)
December 22, 2013 at 9:47 am
4 1 Rate This

Re Angus & Lord Wobbly
Finally this blog discusses something of real value & entertainment. Not that extinct, small & unimportant football team from the south side of Glasgow,but the greatest rock band in history of course:Rush

I have willingly paid more than £70 for a ticket to see this band having followed them throughout Europe & they have never under performed, while retaining their credibility, reputation & integrity within the insane & chaotic world of rock music.
Now what’s this got to do with Scottish Football I hear you ask, not a lot unless you consider that being able to retain your dignity in the face of traumatic events is the best indicator of the quality of person involved?

Well, Rush certainly provide us with a clue to getting things sorted in Scottish Football

And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones who start
To mould a new reality

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Danish PastryPosted on10:44 am - Dec 22, 2013


neepheid says: (944)
December 22, 2013 at 10:10 am
1 0 Rate This
——-

Thanks neep, enlightening as usual. Out of interest, what was the recent Celtic AGM? From the reports it seemed to be a club & company meeting.

Btw, since RIFC was set up later than TRFC, it surely wouldn’t have been able just to take the properties (the ‘main assets’ according to the Stock Exchange) of TRFC and dump them in a new company, would it?

Of course, nobody seems to know who ultimately owns the main assets, so maybe that lack of clarity is complicating matters?

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Tartanwulver

TartanwulverPosted on10:59 am - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1829)
December 22, 2013 at 8:23 am

There’s a post-AGM interview with Graham Wallace via an RTV link on the page below. He comes across as the benign face of the company. An affable man but says surprising little over 10-plus minutes. I suppose he relies on the facts and figures given to him by Stockbridge & Co. He’s obviously paid to be upbeat and optimistic, however, you wonder if he’s looked ‘under the bonnet’ for himself yet, or just been told what’s there.
—————————————————————–
You do wonder if he’s a rogue playing fast and loose with the truth, or whether, based on his statements about balancing the books and bringing forward young players, he isn’t a touch naive. If he has taken the figures offered to him at face value, he will surely end up with his reputation tarnished in the same way as the ‘no sporting advantage’ arm of the justice system. Anyone walking into the bears’ den with their eyes only half open had better beware of an imminent mauling. Claiming to be a bear too will not be of help when the other bears turn nasty.

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Big PinkPosted on11:08 am - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1828)
December 22, 2013 at 10:30 am
_______________________________________________________

A observation that leads me to a conclusion which I find curious;
There is a fear that a new start for Rangers would lead to a fragmented support breaking up with the “traditionalists” not following.
However the illusion of old club, baggage and all, still retains the loyalty of the more reasonable Rangers fans.

Conclusion? My inference is that from the money men’s POV, Rangers are only viable WITH sectarian baggage. Further extrapolation, fuelled by the other clubs’ failure to deal effectively with this piece of nonsense that has been going on, brings me to the conclusion that this POV is shared by Scottish Football as a whole.

Is that the sort of organisation and framework that I want to expose my children to? Absolutely, unequivocally NOT!

The authorities need to take control of this situation and show some moral leadership. However the bean counters at our clubs do not regard morality or sporting integrity with any significance whatsoever unless it affects their bottom line.

As I have said before, their failure to act on the SFA rules last year demonstrates at the very least that our clubs are less concerned with these matters than we are. Until their bottom line is affected by that failure to act with integrity, then they will carry on regardless with the model that sectarianism = cash registers ringing.

The MSM have shown, almost to a man (although with some honourable exceptions) that they are as corrupt as the authorities. They are not merely turning a blind eye to the rules being torn up and used as lavatory paper. They have been actively engaged in keeping the sectarian embers alive by delivering untruths on a systematic basis.

That is why this site and others like it are so important. We may be pushing a huge boulder up a mountain, but at least we have an outlet to get some truth out there. As long as we have a voice in the debate, the (alarmingly for them) declining significance of the media will see that voice increase in volume. We have to ensure that this is not shrill and indignant, but temperate and reasoned.

My belief is that the events of the past couple of years show just how deeply our society is still crippled with sectarianism, and how easy it is for imported rabble rousers like Charles Green to profit from it and walk away, pockets bulging, whilst the wound he helped inflict are festering open sores.

Maybe it’s too much too expect that we can do anything about it, but for sure, neither the football authorities, nor the clubs, nor the MSM are trying.

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Greenock JackPosted on11:12 am - Dec 22, 2013


torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)
Just want to say thanks to ICT and Aberdeen.
If last nights game is an example of Armageddon then bring it on.
————————————————————————————————-
There seems to be a tendency on here to measure entertaining football matches or lots of goals against the financial state of the game. Whilst there is an indirect connection, it isn’t significant unless it becomes the norm and supporters react by turning up in greater numbers.

As I see it, there is one case that is currently significant and that is Dundee Utd. They have a batch of exciting young players that entertain and the support is responding (although numbers are modest).
It is a good example of the business/football model that should be followed. Although I think DUtd with a track record for producing excellent players over the years have happened upon one of those moments that don’t come along very often.

The real significance of it will be that it eventually reduces the debt and secures the clubs finances for the medium term. The players that will help do that most probably won’t be around long enough for the club to have significant benefit on the pitch.

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buddy_hollyPosted on11:13 am - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1829)
December 22, 2013 at 10:44 am
0 0 Rate This

neepheid says: (944)
December 22, 2013 at 10:10 am
1 0 Rate This
——-

Thanks neep, enlightening as usual. Out of interest, what was the recent Celtic AGM? From the reports it seemed to be a club & company meeting.

Btw, since RIFC was set up later than TRFC, it surely wouldn’t have been able just to take the properties (the ‘main assets’ according to the Stock Exchange) of TRFC and dump them in a new company, would it?

Of course, nobody seems to know who ultimately owns the main assets, so maybe that lack of clarity is complicating matters?

Then even more confused by the following …. that TRFC is a fully owned subsidiary of RIFC.

TRFC have not issued accounts (as a private company they do have do don’t they? An Accountant can correct me..)

RIFC issued consolidated accounts (which include TRFC) and these included the properties as assets.

Do not think this helps….

Buddy

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buddy_hollyPosted on11:47 am - Dec 22, 2013


davythelotion says: (297)
December 21, 2013 at 12:02 pm
54 0 Rate This

Why was the AGM held outside? Where was the rangers man who offered to pay for the Hydro? Now that the dust is beginning to settle on 120 days of inactivity it becomes ever clearer that the two most significant things are:
The board retained the services of Stockbridge, despite his less than useless performance to date.
The shareholders don’t trust the board with a further share issue.
Who in the press is willing to ask questions about sevco?

Holding an AGM outside in winter in Scotland, they is the oldest trick in the book to try and limit who turns up and limit the number of awkward questions.

don’t think your summary is fully accuate, I will have a stab, but other are better, I think there is a very good post here , but may be quite old, maybe about time of AGM announcement at 26 november.
Resolution 9 allows for more shares to be issued.
Resolution 10 allows more shares to be issued without the need of the board of RIFC to offer these new shares to the current sharehoders.
I think….

Buddy

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scottc

scottcPosted on11:52 am - Dec 22, 2013


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/wallace-not-pointing-finger-over-rangers-wage-bill-1-3242287

Wallace said: “We had £19 million of top-line revenue and a £14.5m operating loss last year.

“Even if you strip out £10m in one-off items, the business was still losing £4.5m on a normalised basis. Quite clearly that is an issue for us. We have got considerable cost base in terms of staff costs, the player wage costs and, indeed, the infrastructure and running costs of the business. One of the things I am committed to do is looking at every area of the business from top to bottom, to identify what we have got now, and what we need going forward. My expectation is we will take some costs out of the business.

Hmm. Is this not a bit of revisionism? I thought there was £14m operating loss plus an additional £4m in one off costs. Seems now they are trying to say that of the £18m+ total loss, all but £4.5m weere one offs.

Strawclutchery

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Danish PastryPosted on11:53 am - Dec 22, 2013


Big Pink says: (150)
December 22, 2013 at 11:08 am
2 0 Rate This
————

On a slightly related subject, I’ve been trying to follow the recent events at Celtic, which seem to be quite a contrast to the other side of Glasgow. Is it just me, or are are Celtic quietly redefining themselves, now that they are free of the OF chains? I noticed some tweets yesterday concerning flags, and what with certain aspects of the GB’s contributions being called into question, are we seeing a sea-change in attitudes on the west coast?

If my understanding is correct Celtic ARE willing to take a financial hit in an attempt to disassociate themselves from certain parts of their traditional support.

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neepheidPosted on12:03 pm - Dec 22, 2013


buddy_holly says: (115)
December 22, 2013 at 11:13 am

==========
TRFC Ltd do have to produce annual accounts, but as a private company they are on a different deadline from RIFC PLC, although both draw up accounts to 30 June. From memory, TRFC Ltd accounts are due at Companies House by 31 March. They have to get there first, mind!

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neepheidPosted on12:06 pm - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1830)
December 22, 2013 at 10:44 am
0 0 Rate This

neepheid says: (944)
December 22, 2013 at 10:10 am
1 0 Rate This
——-

Thanks neep, enlightening as usual. Out of interest, what was the recent Celtic AGM? From the reports it seemed to be a club & company meeting.
========================
An AGM is the annual meeting of the shareholders of a PLC. It is a legal requirement for every company listed on a stock exchange. So the Celtic AGM was for shareholders of the PLC only. Fans of the club who aren’t shareholders in the PLC have no right to attend.

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jimlarkinPosted on12:10 pm - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1830)
December 22, 2013 at 11:53 am
0 0 Rate This

Big Pink says: (150)
December 22, 2013 at 11:08 am
2 0 Rate This
————

On a slightly related subject, I’ve been trying to follow the recent events at Celtic, which seem to be quite a contrast to the other side of Glasgow. Is it just me, or are are Celtic quietly redefining themselves, now that they are free of the OF chains? I noticed some tweets yesterday concerning flags, and what with certain aspects of the GB’s contributions being called into question, are we seeing a sea-change in attitudes on the west coast?

If my understanding is correct Celtic ARE willing to take a financial hit in an attempt to disassociate themselves from certain parts of their traditional support.

================================================

I would applaud this stance, however
. . . I will not be back to Celtic Park in a very long time.

Why ?

Because Celtic did not object to the rules being broken when Rangers went bust and Sevco were given a direct entry to SFL football via the SFA’s 5 way (secret) agreement, which included a licence (temporary)
Which is not even in the rules and still isn’t !

So in my book – Celtic are in on it

[to be clear – this is a separate issue from the Uefa licence / CL entry]

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EKBhoyPosted on12:18 pm - Dec 22, 2013


Removed. Abuse of another poster.
TSFM

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upthehoopsPosted on12:32 pm - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1830)
December 22, 2013 at 11:53 am

If my understanding is correct Celtic ARE willing to take a financial hit in an attempt to disassociate themselves from certain parts of their traditional support.
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I have been going to Celtic games since the 1970’s, and even in those days leaflets were handed out at the turnstiles asking fans to refrain from certain songs. Moving on there was Fergus McCann with Bhoys against Bigotry, and the current incumbents have made their stance clear in terms of certain songs. They may now be getting a little more forceful and in my opinion the majority of fans don’t have any issues with that. The club mission statement states clearly Celtic are a Scottish club with proud Irish roots and I don’t see anyone at the club changing that stance.

Where I do think it all becomes a tad murky is in terms of freedom of expression, and whether the Scottish Government and the media are coming down far harder on Celtic fans than fans of other clubs who sing material many find offensive. Personally I believe they are, but we could debate that forever. It still seems clear to me that while Celtic see the need to react in terms of positive action, Rangers fans in particular are still largely free to sing and chant what they like, and the club is coming under no pressure whatsover to do anything about it. Perhaps we will have to wait until UEFA are involved again to see the spotlight correctly being shone on the Rangers support.

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Gee69

Gee69Posted on12:53 pm - Dec 22, 2013


And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones who start
To mould a new reality
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Give it a while – say 99 years.
2112 sounds about right.

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Danish PastryPosted on12:58 pm - Dec 22, 2013


upthehoops says: (748)
December 22, 2013 at 12:32 pm
1 1 Rate This
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I was wondering if PL, with his SFA hat on, felt he needed to be seen to be acting. If he at some point wants to voice an opinion about the goings on over on the other side of Glasgow regarding songs, flags or banners, I suppose he has to have no outstanding issues there.

Otherwise, I’m a little puzzled as to what lies behind the flag ban for the St Johnstone match. Is it a one-off?

Slightly controversial, but my own view is that flags related to Ireland, it’s current or past status, have no place at Scottish football grounds — not because they in themselves are bad, but because they often used by certain supporters of the two big Glasgow clubs for political reasons — and they perpetuate, in a symbolic kind of way, some of the animosity behind ‘the troubles’ on Scottish soil. The union flag is also used solely for political reasons imo and should also be banned from Scottish football grounds.

Whatever happened to idea of club flags, using the club’s colours, that do not include a contentious foreign flag?

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Esteban

EstebanPosted on1:21 pm - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1831)
December 22, 2013 at 12:58 pm

It’s not about the flags per se, but about the potential concealment of pyrotechnics. It’s nothing to do with Ireland. Fans turning up with saltires or the flag of the Duchy of Grand Fenwick will be equally affected.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on2:07 pm - Dec 22, 2013


Supermarket Sweep

Malcolm Murray’s cash flow projection: “This thing needs an injection of roughly £10m over the next 18 months.”

Well Malcolm, if you rasie £10m and come back in 18 months you’ll be able to buy almost everything in the Tesco Extra store at Ibrox.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/rangers-need-10m-to-stay-afloat-malcolm-murray-1-3242193

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upthehoopsPosted on2:20 pm - Dec 22, 2013


Danish Pastry says: (1831)
December 22, 2013 at 12:58 pm
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It’s a debate that could go on forever. My personal view is Celtic are currently sheep dipping in terms of bans, suspensions, and flag / banner bans, to ensure there is no further bad publicity for the club. That brings me back to media reporting and why all the focus seems to be on Celtic, despite the bigot fest we hear every time Rangers play. In terms of Irish flags I can maybe see where you’re coming from, but if Scotland is as we are told ‘one country, many cultures’ then to ban the flag of a fellow European Union member from football grounds would not look too good.

In case you are wondering about me I am a Celtic fan with a distant Irish bloodline on my mothers side and I have never considered myself anything other than Scottish. Going back to flags causing issues I have a story from our local R.C Secondary School. The school has a policy of flying a multitude of different flags to mark significant events from both home and abroad. This has included the Saltire on St Andrews day, and the Union Flag at Willie and Katies wedding. There have been so many different flags flown and then they chose three years ago to fly the Irish Tricolour on St Patricks day. It was the first time ever the school received any complaints from the public about a flag it was flying. So is it the flags that are wrong in themselves or simply attitudes that need to be enlightened?

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