Peace – Not War

ByTrisidium

Peace – Not War

We normally don’t talk about on-field stuff on SFM, but given the over-optimistic coverage of the prospects of TRFC (particularly in the ESJ © The Clumpany  and DR) it is worth noting that since they beat Celtic on penalties in last year’s Scottish Cup semi final, they have played in four huge games which were real barometers of progress ;

  • Hibs in the Scottish Cup Final: 2-3
  • Celtic in the Premiership: 1-5
  • Aberdeen in the Premiership: 1-2
  • Celtic in the League Cup Semi-Final: 0-1

On each occasion, they have failed the test, not only by failing to get a result, but by being second best in most on-field departments.

The point is not one of wider Schadenfreude, or even an in-depth critique of the abilities of the team or manager, but of how the TRFC board and the MSM, in falsely inflating their side’s prospects, do a disservice to TRFC fans. Aided and abetted it seems by the manager who – even allowing for the positive spin managers need to put on things post defeat – is refusing to accept reality.

We often talk about turnover as the yardstick by which performance can be (roughly) measured. If that were the only yardstick, one would expect TRFC to be right up there with Celtic. But it is more complicated than that. For Celtic and TRFC, there are massive overheads (e.g. stadium costs) that have to be dealt with and taken out of the equation before Glasgow apples can be compared with Aberdeen and Edinburgh varieties.

Even allowing for that it seems pretty clear to me that TRFC have more disposable income (for spending on players and contracts) than Hearts or Aberdeen for example, but the gap is now not as great as raw turnover figures would suggest  – and the margins are probably slim enough that they can be easily blurred by managers at other clubs who have a good grasp of tactics, an eye for a player, and a proper understanding of football psychology.

To compound the problem for TRFC, there are two rather large eggs in the TRFC transfer basket which are now cracked or broken.  A dangerous waste of resources in fact. Whether it was Warburton or King who went to the market for Barton and Kranjčar is irrelevant. More relevant is the reason marquee signings like these were made.

Once a manager is recruited, you stay out of his domain

Yes, Barton’s signature in particular has used a huge chunk of the already scant budget, and that is a real blow to the manager’s planning, but the real problem is that the club has deliberately pushed fan expectations skyward, all of which is counter-intuitive given the rough calculations in the preceding paragraphs. More worryingly for Rangers fans, the board’s own expectations for the playing side are unrealistically high – and given the business expertise contained therein, puzzlingly so.

TRFC is a focal point for tens of thousands of people. The people who run the club are also influential opinion formers and how they set the tone for those thousands is important.

Tub-rattling, dog-whistling, and the WATP mentality have been employed almost exclusively thus far in the ‘journey’. All of which may have rallied the troops and provided a welcome injection of funds, but it also antagonised almost every football fan in the country who wasn’t a Rangers follower. And in view of how those funds (including the £21m IPO) seemingly disappeared into the ether, did it really help the club realise any ambitions going forward?

TRFC are looking up at the north face of a financial Eiger today

I can’t help feeling that had they been replaced with humility, some regret, and gratitude to those who smoothed their path into the leagues, then the view from the club deck would a lot more attractive today than it is.

The journey could have been an expansive one bent on winning friends along the way, clearly differentiating itself from the Murray era, and carrying assurances that the new Rangers would never treat the game in Scotland as shabbily as its predecessor.

Seems intuitively obvious to me that a mission statement like the following would win hearts and minds;

“The latter-day custodians of Rangers have destroyed our club and shamed its traditions of sporting integrity, fair play, and honest endeavour.

“However the ethos and identity of our club will not be allowed to slip into obscurity.

“We will build a club worthy of the traditions of sporting integrity and fair play. It will be open and accessible to people of all colours, creeds and nationalities,

“It will be a long journey, but it is one which we relish, and one which will in time restore Rangers to the upper echelons of the game“

Managing expectations realistically with a ‘we are thankful to keep the Rangers name alive’ would have played better with the bears.

I don’t believe there is a football fan in the world who wouldn’t sign up to that had they found their club in the same circumstances as 2011 Rangers. I don’t believe that Rangers fans are any different either, but the problem is that their moral compass is being calibrated by people whose past records make them least qualified for the task.

Instead of a plan to win Scottish football over, we got boycotts, victim-hood, denial, and that wonderful new oxymoronic idiom, post-liquidation. Really though, it should all have been so different.

Water bills notwithstanding, TRFC are looking up at the north face of a financial Eiger today, but they chose to climb an Eiger instead of a Munro, and they sold false hope and snake oil to the fans on the way.

They have no money with which to recruit players of sufficient quality to challenge at the top. They are facing a massive bill for repairs and maintenance of a stadium that has atrophied under six or seven years of neglect. They have similar infrastructure problems at their training ground. They need to build a scouting infrastructure which currently consists of one man and several local volunteers. Their income from merchandising is non-existent due to a testicles-drawn dispute with Sports Direct. They owe several millions of pounds of soft loans which they cannot convert to equity because of that same dispute, and the people they have gone back to again and again for top-up finance have ever shortening arms and lengthening pockets.

.. we understand the value that Rangers can bring to the to the Scottish game and we want it to be realised.

Miracles of course do happen, perhaps in the shape of a magician manager who can get them access to European cash almost immediately. Unless that comes to pass, there is no way forward for Dave King and his board, other than to make peace immediately with Sports Direct and actually stump up the cash he promised two years ago; cash he promised to bridge the resources gap which is widening by the week.

A widely accepted wisdom in many football boardrooms these days is that the main recruitment priority of any board is an excellent manager. A really good manager can make a team out of ordinary players, but a poor manager will have difficulty sculpting a winning side from even very good players.  So in a club with limited resources, it makes sense to spend a major part of your budget on a very good manager.

Another widely accepted wisdom in boardrooms (even if not always followed) is that once a manager is recruited, you stay out of his domain.

The boardroom at Ibrox is not awash with wisdom it seems. First of all they put their faith in a manager with little or no experience in the game. That may well have worked out with a bit of good fortune, but does anyone really believe, after his disappearing act in the wake of the Cup Final defeat and his absence at the Barton signing conference, that Mark Warburton is master of his own domain?

If not, does the ‘come hither’ curled finger of fate attached to Jimmy Traynor’s hand at last week’s press conference convince you?

I would guess that there are at least half a dozen experienced managers with a track record of success who would relish the challenge of putting TRFC on the map at the opportunity cost of a Barton for example. Instead it seems – if the rumours are true – that Warburton’s autonomy was breached so that said Joey could be hired to boost ST sales.

No group of fans is entitled to expect success. Rangers fans, and Celtic fans, have historically come to expect that very thing. It is understandable to some extent, but it should never be confused with an actual entitlement to success – and that is what the board at Ibrox are selling to the fans in return for their cash – which as we have seen is not being converted to the promised on-field successes.

the ‘come hither’ curled finger of fate attached to Jimmy Traynor’s hand should convince us that Warburton is not his own master

To a large extent, I think some of the online comments in fan sites in the wake of the Celtic match have been sensible and mature. Reality amongst Rangers fans is at last beginning to bite, and that can only be a good thing for TRFC. Rangers fans are beginning to understand that too many liberties have been taken with their loyalty to and love of the jersey. The problem for the fans is that whilst they come to terms with what may be a realistic timetable and roadmap towards success and parity with the top clubs, the current board and their chums in the press are invested in having them believe the opposite.

Already the cheerleaders in the red tops are proclaiming their ‘gulf-denial’ credentials in the hope that enough fans will be convinced of it. The problem is that the fans know the gulf exists – and not only that does exist, but it is unrealistic to expect it not to.

The Level5 effect is wearing off. In the past five years, £21m quid in investment, £6m in loans, and five years worth of ST sales have all come and gone. Will Rangers fans really do those sums, observe that in each of the four milestone matches mentioned at the beginning of this article there is nothing to show for it, and agree that there is nothing to concern them?

Rangers fans will no doubt call us obsessed to produce an article like this – about them. But football is uniquely interdependent – we all need each other. It is a game where we benefit from the traditions, the colour and the fanaticism of rivals. The fact is that we understand the value that Rangers can bring to the to the Scottish game and we want it to be realised.

Sadly though, the current people in charge at the club are people who revel in making war on fellow clubs and business partners as well as the national broadcaster and BT Sport. They have also failed to deliver on promises of investment and success to their own fans, and escaped press scrutiny of that failure. Whilst they are there, we see only division in Scottish football with no coming together possible for generations.

I believe that the vast majority of fans who love Rangers, like the rest of us, have had enough of a war on too many fronts to count. It’s time to make peace – with everyone. Football in this country can’t be fixed until that happens.

About the author

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,368 Comments so far

scottcPosted on3:58 pm - Dec 10, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIALDECEMBER 10, 2016 at 12:07  
  A net?…..And what sized mesh would that be, 4 inch, 6 inch?   That still leaves a freefall escape for objects such as bolts, or even a rod falling in the vertical plane.  

The normal netting for that sort of purpose would, presumably, be of the sort completely sealed into plastic so that nothing can fall through. I’ve seen it used very effectively while a roof was being replaced and people were working below

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Corrupt officialPosted on4:56 pm - Dec 10, 2016


SCOTTCDECEMBER 10, 2016 at 15:58
    “The normal netting for that sort of purpose would, presumably, be of the sort completely sealed into plastic so that nothing can fall through. I’ve seen it used very effectively while a roof was being replaced and people were working below”
     ——————————————————————————————————————————-
   Thanks for that SCOTTC. I assume you are referring to the type of stuff we often see surrounding scaffold in city centres. 
I was thinking more trapeze stylee. 

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paddy malarkeyPosted on6:51 pm - Dec 10, 2016


I don’t think you would be allowed to wear a hard hat into football stadia nowadays,  but it would be worth finding out if you could to protect yourself .

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scottcPosted on8:02 pm - Dec 10, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIALDECEMBER 10, 2016 at 16:56  SCOTTC DECEMBER 10, 2016 at 15:58    “The normal netting for that sort of purpose would, presumably, be of the sort completely sealed into plastic so that nothing can fall through. I’ve seen it used very effectively while a roof was being replaced and people were working below”     ——————————————————————————————————————————-   Thanks for that SCOTTC. I assume you are referring to the type of stuff we often see surrounding scaffold in city centres. I was thinking more trapeze stylee. 

Actually, no, though the plastic is similar. This stuff is suspended under the roof to catch any debris. It is full rope like netting embedded in plastic. 

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haudyerwheeshtPosted on10:24 pm - Dec 10, 2016


Surely it would be in the best interest of CFC supporters, attending the game on Hogmanay, to take the precaution of wearing hard hats? Would certainly make a statement. Heaven forbid Police Scotland or TRFC’s security were to insist they remove the “offending item” and subsequently building material was then to fall into the stand occupied by CFC supporters.  

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Corrupt officialPosted on8:03 am - Dec 11, 2016


SCOTTCDECEMBER 10, 2016 at 20:02
    “Actually, no, though the plastic is similar. This stuff is suspended under the roof to catch any debris. It is full rope like netting embedded in plastic.”
    ——————————————————————————————————————————
    I imagine the supply and installation of such material would not come cheap. Especially for the square metres involved. I don’t imagine cable ties would pass muster, and load-bearing anchor points will be needed to secure it. 
   I notice in your first reply that you say you have seen it used successfully during roof replacement. 
  Assuming Phil has it right that netting is to be used, and playing Devil’s advocate, I suppose the netting may not actually be for safety in the way assumed, but as preparation for a programme of works to the area above. 
   

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upthehoopsPosted on8:19 am - Dec 11, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIALDECEMBER 11, 2016 at 08:03     I suppose the netting may not actually be for safety in the way assumed, but as preparation for a programme of works to the area above. 

=================================

Normally that would be credible, but where on earth would they get the millions that it would cost? Unless it is from public money, but surely that would not be credible either.

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Corrupt officialPosted on8:44 am - Dec 11, 2016


UPTHEHOOPSDECEMBER 11, 2016 at 08:19
Normally that would be credible, but where on earth would they get the millions that it would cost? Unless it is from public money, but surely that would not be credible either.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————
   Yeah I know they are pink lint, but to net a whole stand (or three),as a stop-gap solution seems like money down the pan, and if it is going ahead, they have found some money from somewhere. 
   Even if the netting were to do its job and protect spectators below, falling debris would still be an evacuation event, followed by closure, and in a roundabout way, an admission of culpability in allowing spectators into an unsafe area. 

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Paulmac2Posted on10:36 am - Dec 11, 2016


I doubt there will be any statement rom the club playing out of Ibrox regarding the roof issue.

Firstly I would assume they have no knowledge of how far the roof may have degraded since the certificate was issued. So to make any claim at this stage would be a dangerous step to take.

Secondly to respond would be to acknowledge the internet/public discussion that is taking place…which may force additional cost to counter the claims.

Added to this they will be paying for the damage to the Celtic stadium caused by their fans…and that will be paid for before Christmas…I say paid…deducted.

The fact they had partial roof failure during a match against Dumbarton that affected and placed in danger their OWN fans…they are not in any way going to give a hoot about away fans…

It is all about money…they need it…desperately…they cannot declare the roof unsafe…it would shut off the only real revenue stream they have…it would invoke a capital expenditure they do not have…it would require a rental commitment to another stadium they do not have…all this would expose the cash emergency they have…meanwhile they have outgoing transfer fees still to be settled within the next 6 months or sooner…whilst honouring their current salary demands and tax liabilities…

Who would seriously wish to invest in that?

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Paulmac2Posted on10:44 am - Dec 11, 2016


upthehoopsDecember 11, 2016 at 08:19

………………………………..

With fingers crossed…and eyes shut they are hoping to squeeze past to the end of the year to offload players for a cash return to see them stumble on to the end of the season…this does not however resolve the growing monster that will not go away…their debt…they have gone past the point of no return…there is no alternative solution…the only thing that could be a game changer…if a supporter wins the Euro lottery at a high end figure and emotionally decides to give the club most of it…

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Paulmac2Posted on10:46 am - Dec 11, 2016


it would not surprise me if the netting solution was part of an agreement insisted upon by Celtic before submitting payment for their ticket allocation.

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John ClarkPosted on12:06 pm - Dec 11, 2016


In the matter of stadium safety, there surely cannot be a local authority rash enough to dismiss out of hand the concerns of people who propose to spend some time in a stadium about the structural safety  of which there are questions.

The entire readership of SFM knows that questions have been asked.
If the City of Glasgow Council chooses to ignore that fact and refuses to make a public statement to the effect that the stadium is perfectly safe and that barring an ‘act of God’ everybody in or around it on Hogmanay will be safe from falling debris etc, the Councillors responsible will be hung out to dry in the event that anyone does indeed suffer injury because of structural failings.

Of course, if they do make such a public statement based only on what TRFC tell them, and casualties do arise, they will be crucified first,and then hung out to dry.
If my council seat and a possible culpable homicide charge were involved, I think I would be calling for a full professional structural survey to be carried out sharpish- at the expense of the new club.

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bfbpuzzledPosted on12:36 pm - Dec 11, 2016


If I were in the powers that be in a visiting club I would be extremely cautious in agreeing that netting was sufficient to guarantee my supporters safety lest I assumed some liability if it were to go wrong. In particular, I would be very wary of accepting the assurances of a known shameless liar.
this is not only a Hogmanay issue either it arises anytime the stadium is occupied.
In the long run skimping on building maintenance invariably costs more than doing it properly in the case of Stadia perhaps doubly so because roofs are exposed to the elements on both sides.

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Carfins FinestPosted on1:44 pm - Dec 11, 2016


Its  not just visiting fans health and safety that is being put at risk if reports are true. Home fans are more at risk than anyone because they visit the stadium more often. Obviously. But the point I was trying to make earlier is that BEFORE the last 2 life losing incidents at Ibrox Park, which consisted mainly of home fans the authorities within the boardroom had been informed fully of the issues and the remedial work required to address these issues. On both occasions they chose to ignore the warnings and therefore wilfully neglecting the duty of care they had to their own supporters.

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upthehoopsPosted on4:17 pm - Dec 11, 2016


I note at least one MSP has taken to Twitter to raise the issue of alleged unsafe roofs at Ibrox. Phil Mac’s article is very specific. No matter who the messenger is, these allegations need to be looked into by a higher authority. 

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neepheidPosted on4:49 pm - Dec 11, 2016


After “Watergate”, I’m more than  a bit sceptical about “Roofgate”.
The company with responsibility for Ibrox is TRFC. That company has a board of directors, including  Murray, Gilligan, Park, Robertson and Dickson.
Are all of them, each and every one,  so stupid and irresponsible as to risk criminal prosecution by encouraging large numbers of people to attend events at an unsafe stadium, owned by the company of which they are directors? 
One or two of them might be both foolhardy enough  and stupid enough to risk liberty and reputation on a punt like that. But all of them?
If netting, whatever that consists of, is a safety requirement, then it would surely be put in place tomorrow, not January, Or any sensible director would resign, if only to protect his personal position, even supposing he had no moral compass whatsoever.
I just think what I would do in their place as a responsible officer of the company. I certainly couldn’t sleep at night.
I might be wrong, and all the directors might all be totally stupid scoundrels, but on balance, I’m just not buying it.

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Charlie_KellyPosted on5:30 pm - Dec 11, 2016


For me the Nets story doesn’t pass the sniff test in the same way Phil’s story about TRFC blagging free water from a nearby church didn’t pass the test.
Phil’s livelihood relies on hits on his blog. This is fine for him when he has a genuine news story but what does he do when there’s nothing much to report? People will just stop checking his blog if there isn’t a fresh update every couple of days. So what should he do? The temptation to exaggerate or just blatantly make stuff up must be enormous. The MSM succumb to this temptation all the time so why would online bloggers be any different?
As others have pointed out, the directors at TRFC would need to be off their collective rockers to proceed with this if ibrox really was the deathtrap its being made out to be. My own tuppence worth is that its well documented that ibrox needs some maintenance work on it and these nets going up in January will most likely be in preparation for work to be carried out. Due to the winter break, rangers won’t have a home game for around 3 weeks so that’d be the ideal time to carry out some work on the roof.
So I reckon Phil is maybe half right in the sense that there will be nets getting put up but he’s over egging it to suggest that this is to prevent parts of the roof landing on Celtic fans. I mean just play it through in your mind. He’s expecting us to believe that TRFC directors are happy to let their own fans sit in that stand and risk serious injury but at the same time they are putting in place safety measures to protect Celtic fans! That makes absolutely no sense on any level.

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Cluster OnePosted on7:08 pm - Dec 11, 2016


At the end of the day i don’t want to see a similar story break here.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/nigeria-church-roof-collapse-bishop-uyo-latest-a7467851.html
now over 160 dead

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tonyPosted on7:27 pm - Dec 11, 2016


CHARLIE_KELLY

Phil’s livelihood relies on hits on his blog.
i think he makes quite a bit of money from  books and writing plays he also does work for newspapers,not sticking up for the guy but i think his blog may be the least commercial

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bfbpuzzledPosted on7:32 pm - Dec 11, 2016


Watergate was a yes no -either they did it or did not. The roof situation is not so clear cut either in principle or practice- we are into areas of judgement about the state and likely prognosis for a major part of a complicated building. There may be professional opinions on various aspects but these might use the proverbial Mibbes aye mibbes naw caveat 
If there is nothing in these stories, it would be an open goal for TRFC to say that and  simultaneously having the place to pass comment on Social media outlets- transparency was promised after all.
If there is the smell of mendacity then trust is difficult to obtain-that would affect any sniff test.

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bordersdonPosted on8:24 pm - Dec 11, 2016


CHARLIE_KELLYPhil’s livelihood relies on hits on his blog.i think he makes quite a bit of money from  books and writing plays he also does work for newspapers,not sticking up for the guy but i think his blog may be the least commercial
—————————————————————-
I think Phil’s credibility is about zero!!! So many “developing stories” “reliable sources” blah blah. Too many folk WANT to hear his latest expose (not) and he knows it surely? Dear friends10

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StevieBCPosted on9:53 pm - Dec 11, 2016


FWIW, I check various news sites to get a balanced view – including RT and Al Jazeera.

Likewise, I check SFM, Phil, and latterly John James sites for footy news.
Sites won’t always be spot on but at least I know I am aware of the topical discussion points.

…and I do check the SMSM newspaper sites – but mostly to read the reader’s comments which tend to me more accurate, and amusing.

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upthehoopsPosted on7:20 am - Dec 12, 2016


BORDERSDONDECEMBER 11, 2016 at 20:24  
I think Phil’s credibility is about zero!!! So many “developing stories” “reliable sources” blah blah. Too many folk WANT to hear his latest expose (not) and he knows it surely?

=========================

Phil has got a lot right, and just because some of his stories don’t end up in mainstream doesn’t mean there is no  truth to them. Even in 2016 I don’t think you can ever underestimate the power of the establishment to cover up stories for the benefit of the club from Ibrox. 

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Mark CPosted on9:03 am - Dec 12, 2016


STEVIEBCDECEMBER 11, 2016 at 21:53 
Likewise, I check SFM, Phil, and latterly John James sites for footy news.Sites won’t always be spot on but at least I know I am aware of the topical discussion points.

I notice JJ appears to have an extreme dislike of this site.  He has also taken to restricting questions of his blogs.  My understanding from on here is that they made losses of £18m over the 3 qualifying seasons and that main shareholders have put in £14m through unsecured loans.  If these loans are converted to equity through their rights issues, then they will meet the required rules without the need of applying for exemption.I posted that over there, but he has chosen to block it rather than debate it.

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goosygoosyPosted on9:44 am - Dec 12, 2016


BBC
John Swinney says SFA should set up inquiry into football abuse claims
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Whats the first few steps in setting up an Enquiry?
I suggest
Writing the Terms of Reference
And
Selecting someone to head the Enquiry
<<<<<<<<<
For decades
UK Governments have subverted embarassing issues by ensuring they control these first two steps  when setting up a so called “Independent” Enquiry
For the very good reason that they want to have their cake and eat it
How?
To name but two
Write the ToR so wide that the Enquiry lasts way beyond the date of the next election
Appoint cronies who  ensure the Government of the day is handed a Report framed in language that provides massive wriggle room for their paymasters (who may be out of Government by then)
,,,,,,,,,
So while John Swinney is right to call for an Independent Enquiry
He is completely wrong to suggest  the SFA should have any role in creating the Enquiry process
If I didnt` know better I could easily think Swinney is in the pocket of the SFA
Or put another way
Is Swinney and the SNP Gov part of the football establishment ?
Perfectly happy with the way in which the SFA ran the so called LNS Enquiry?

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wottpiPosted on9:48 am - Dec 12, 2016


The problem with the Ibrox roofing saga is that it doesn’t appear as anyone blogging on the subject has actually seen any structural engineering reports with regard to what exactly may be needed in way of maintenance and up-grades.

If, like the annual accounts, there was something in the public domain then Phil and/or others could get an engineering equivalent of ‘Rugger Guy’ to analysis, dissect and provide and overview.

The fact that none of that has happened makes me very skeptical with regard to pronouncements on the ‘safety’ of the roofs and the need for extensive expenditure and relocation to Hampden. 

At present  it looks like  – a friend of a mate whose uncle works in the council heard from one of the office cleaners, that cast her eye over a report left open on a desk, there was mention of a “rusty bolt”.

If there is to be a downfall of the current operation down Govan Way it will be the lack cash, not only to pay for regular maintenance but also to upgrade / replace the current squad.

However that being said one has to give credit where credit is due in that a pretty average team is sitting clear in second spot at present. Frankly the recent performances from opposition, especially Aberdeen and Hearts at Ibrox have been poor and the T’Rangers board may feel they don’t have to spend that much cash to be where they realistically want to be.

With austerity, keeping an eye on costs and hoping the rest of the Premiership keep playing in a woeful manner they could well settle in for a good few years as a strong second.

 

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Big PinkPosted on10:46 am - Dec 12, 2016


TWM 7 now out – Ally Begg, Ryan McGowan and a tribute to Hughie Maxwell –  http://tiny.cc/nq1ohy

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John ClarkPosted on10:53 am - Dec 12, 2016


Pleasantly knackered after another splendid day in Agnes Water/Town of 1770 with the 4 granweans.They’re all now abed, And we have withdrawn to our suite to give the son and d-in-law theiŕ own space. ( our days begin virtually at first light,so by about now ,,about 8.15 pm, we’re ready for a quiet refreshment, and a read: she on her kindle and me on the tablet.
And I’ve just checked the Rolls of Court for The High Court in Edinburgh, and note that the Hma  v Craig Whyte preliminary hearing continues there on 22nd December.
I think eJ already mentioned the date,but I can’t remember whether the switch from Glasgow High court was mentioned?
l’m sorry I’ll miss it,and I hope that either eJ  or James D  might be able to attend so that  if anything can be reported openly about  date of possible trial or whatever, we can hear it from a non-taiinted source.
I’m hoping of course that matters go to trial, and that any trial is scheduled for a date when I’m back home.

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John ClarkPosted on11:08 am - Dec 12, 2016


apologies: my recent post; line 3 should have read ” and we have withdrawn to our suite to give…..” 

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Big PinkPosted on11:31 am - Dec 12, 2016


John

Perfect bedtime listen 🙂 

http://tiny.cc/nq1ohy

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John ClarkPosted on12:34 pm - Dec 12, 2016


Big Pink Dec 12 2016@ 11.31
“…perfect bedtime listen.”
————-
Aye , but  the bloody cicadas or crickets or whatever are making such a racket that I would need to have the volume full blast to hear it! 
The noise is astonishing,right ootside the windaes it seems .
I’ll have a listen tomorrow, beside the pool.

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GiovanniPosted on1:09 pm - Dec 12, 2016


I see that Mr MacGiollabhain and Mr James are persisting with the Ibrox roof story despite the cynicism expressed on this and other sites. Indeed Mr James is quoting from a well known stalwart Glasgow businessman, Mr Smillie, who, I hear is a serious man, to be treated with respect.

“Andy Smilie (sic) of AS Scaffolding Ltd is telling anybody who wants to listen to that he’s had to erect £250k worth of scaffolding because “the roof is f****d”.”

 * my edit for taste reasons.

Perhaps one of our fearless Glasgow journalists could contact Mr Smillie to confirm this story.

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Charlie_KellyPosted on2:01 pm - Dec 12, 2016


I’ve no idea how much scaffolding costs but I’d assume that £250K’s worth is a lot of scaffolding! So if that is true then there is bound to be photographic evidence of this.

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wottpiPosted on2:27 pm - Dec 12, 2016


GIOVANNI
DECEMBER 12, 2016 at 13:09

Well not only AS Scaffolding Ltd could be contacted but Woolgar Hunter who JJ believes has reported to the T’Rangers board that the connectors in three of the roofs are at ‘breaking point’.

JJ appears to have first referred to Woolgar Hunter in July this year, so are we to assume it is a report from around that time he is referring to?

Therefore if the WH report said the connectors were at “breaking point”,  then they have lasted from the time of the inspection, the writing of the report and the intervening months. So most likely more 6 months and possibly longer.

Structural Engineers will allow for a degree of tolerance and built-in safety limits when reaching conclusions. Therefore I find it hard to believe they would highlight imminent structural failures, that could lead to the collapse of football stadium roofs along with the potential fatal consequences and then not speak up with regard to the obvious public safety concerns knowing that the place is full every second week.

While it is the T’Rangers board’s job make the decisions on what needs to be done with regard to roof maintenance the structural engineers code of conduct reminds practitioners shall

“have regard to the public interest as well as the interests of all those affected by their professional activities;”

The consequences for WH as a firm and any of their alleged T’Rangers leaning staff in the event of a roof failure would be unthinkable if they have somehow given a dangerous structure a clean bill of health.

There may be issues with the roofs but IMHO they are unlikely to be of a nature or extent that puts people lives at risk. 

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Corrupt officialPosted on2:54 pm - Dec 12, 2016


TOG tweeting about the Staggies

https://twitter.com/theoffshoregame

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StevieBCPosted on4:04 pm - Dec 12, 2016


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4024326/Nearly-200-footballers-facing-HMRC-probe-using-image-rights-tax-dodge-cut-bills.html

Another article querying the tax dodges of highly paid football players / managers, although in this article it appears to be legal / tax avoidance.

Most footie fans know the game has always had its fair share of dodgy characters, from shifty agents unsettling players to generate a transfer fee, to greedy managers accepting brown envelopes in motorway service stations, etc.  
It’s been an open secret for decades.

Now, especially in the EPL, there are vast amounts of cash swilling around the league from TV rights in particular.
It’s reasonable to expect that this has attracted even more dodgy characters to force their way to the trough.

But HMRC has ‘generally’ kept away – perhaps until now.
Was it previously accepted that it would not be ‘politically astute’ to chase idolised footy players, or high profile/media savvy clubs ? 

It is interesting to see that HMRC is looking more closely at the game.  
Following on from the RFC WTC, and the BTC, I’m sure many Scottish taxpayers would be happy to see some tangible results across the UK – and regardless of which team they support.
But what if a large, legitimate tax demand threatens to put their club out of business ?

Happens all the time in ‘normal’ commercial businesses, so football clubs should be treated exactly the same…you would think?

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AmFearLiathMòrPosted on5:26 pm - Dec 12, 2016


Corrupt officialDecember 12, 2016 at 14:54      i 7 Votes 
TOG tweeting about the Staggies
https://twitter.com/theoffshoregame

On first viewing, that certainly makes worrying reading for Staggies fans.  If the late filing was a simple oversight and rectified in a matter of weeks, then you could dismiss it as nothing, but given how overdue it is, combined with the murky question of ownership, then it doesn’t look good.

However, I don’t expect for a moment that the SFA or SPFL will do anything about it – that might bring the focus uncomfortably back on them as to what circumstances might lead to them actually getting off their backsides and doing something.

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Corrupt officialPosted on5:53 pm - Dec 12, 2016


AMFEARLIATHMÒRDECEMBER 12, 2016 at 17:26

    “However, I don’t expect for a moment that the SFA or SPFL will do anything about it – that might bring the focus uncomfortably back on them as to what circumstances might lead to them actually getting off their backsides and doing something.”
    ——————————————————————————————————————————–
  TOG are dead to the SFA and SPFL. They can’t just inject life into them because it suits………Errrrrrrrrr. 
But that is not to say Ross County fans can’t ask a few questions. 
Who’s next?

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Cluster OnePosted on6:13 pm - Dec 12, 2016


AMFEARLIATHMÒRDECEMBER 12, 2016 at 17:26       1 Vote 
Corrupt officialDecember 12, 2016 at 14:54      i 7 Votes TOG tweeting about the Staggieshttps://twitter.com/theoffshoregame
————————
combined with the murky question of ownership, then it doesn’t look good.
However, I don’t expect for a moment that the SFA or SPFL will do anything about it – that might bring the focus uncomfortably back on them as to what circumstances might lead to them actually getting off their backsides and doing something.
———————–
During the last couple of years with the ibrox debacle, did the SFA not demand to know who was behind Blue pitch and other companies? Were they not given a letter by charles Green telling the SFA who were behind such companies and the SFA were happy with the information given but it was not made public.
happy to be corrected on that one

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neepheidPosted on8:04 pm - Dec 12, 2016


Cluster OneDecember 12, 2016 at 18:13   During the last couple of years with the ibrox debacle, did the SFA not demand to know who was behind Blue pitch and other companies? Were they not given a letter by charles Green telling the SFA who were behind such companies and the SFA were happy with the information given but it was not made public. happy to be corrected on that one
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This the best I can find, from the Sun on 28/6/12

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/archives/news/64748/whyte-is-a-goner-your-cash-is-safe-and-charles-green-isnt-the-villain/
“As has been stated previously, a consortium of investment funds and individuals invested in the acquisition and funding of Rangers.
“The consortium includes, Zeus Capital, Chris Morgan — a UK-based businessman representing family trusts, renowned Scottish clothing company Glenmuir, Alessandro Celano of Blue Pitch Holdings, Jude Allen, Mazen Houssami, Elias Kaisar and Mr Jean Haddad.
“The provenance of all investments made in Rangers is being made now to the SFA and all directors of Rangers will be required to pass the SFA’s fit and proper persons test.

As with all things Charles Green, not very clear, but I do remember that details of ownership had to be submitted to the SFA. Here is Ecojon’s take on it, with which I fully agree- https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/who-are-the-mysterious-sevcorangers-investors-some-answers-guest-post-by-ecojon/

However, Rangers fans can relax as SFA officials, sworn to secrecy and signing a confidentiality agreement, have been shown a list of shareholders. Before you ask, I don’t know whether their trouser legs were rolled-up and breasts bared and I don’t even know if it was a page out of the Karachi telephone directory. What we need to know is whether the list revealed the actual beneficial ownership of the shareholding rather than a trust or nominee name and the amount invested.

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Corrupt officialPosted on8:24 pm - Dec 12, 2016


CLUSTER ONEDECEMBER 12, 2016 at 18:13

NEEPHEIDDECEMBER 12, 2016 at 20:04
     Wasn’t it also the case, that when resolution voting bans were dished out at last years AGM, It was apparently because they wouldn’t “declare” who was behind the shareholdings?. 

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paddy malarkeyPosted on8:53 pm - Dec 12, 2016


Maybe the start of a long queue ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-38292040

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misterlightbulbjokePosted on9:08 pm - Dec 12, 2016


I’ve always thought that the decision of Collyer Bristow, or their insurance providers, to hand over £25 million to Rangers at BDO seemed odd. They settled the claim out of court.
The claim itself apparently stemmed from the  fact that Paul Murray and other directors were persuaded not to have their own £25 million share issue , which would have we are led to believe  stabilised the club, to make way for the Craig Whyte takeover.
First of all, given that Rangers had a projected £50 million share issue around 5 years earlier which had no buyers why didn’t Collyer Bristow argue that there was no chance of anyone raising £25 mill in a Rangers share issue because nobody in their right mind would touch them with the debts hanging over them. If Collyer Bristow had wanted to call a witness to make that point specifically to the judge then to get said witness they’d only to call on one Mr Paul Murray no less , who said the following regarding buying Rangers:
The programme also heard from former Rangers director Paul Murray, who said: “I think a lot of Rangers’ issues were a direct result of the banking crisis, because the banking environment changed and every company including football clubs had difficult relationships with the bankers.”
He went on to say how important the club’s place is in Scottish society.
He said: “With an institution like Rangers we’re all custodians of a 140-year-old institution. It’s not just simply another company, there’s a wider responsibility.”
Mr Murray said he doubted Mr Whyte’s logic in taking on an unspecified tax bill.
He added: “From my experience of buying and selling companies over a 25-year period, I’ve never ever seen anyone take on a liability of that nature before.”

Yet if Murray’s share issue had been successful, being in charge of said liability was exactly where he would have been.

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bordersdonPosted on9:20 pm - Dec 12, 2016


paddy malarkeyDecember 12, 2016 at 20:53 
Maybe the start of a long queue ?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-38292040
======================================
That is an absolutely disgraceful post. The man has had a long history of problems. You make me sick using him like that!!! What do you mean???

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Big PinkPosted on11:11 pm - Dec 12, 2016


Bordersdon,

I understand the sensitivities here, but I don’t think that was Paddy’s intention. Windass’s problems are connected with HMRC issues.

For the same reason, guys like Jim Spence have been tweeting about it. I don’t think anyone is taking perverse pleasure in Windass’s troubles, but there seems little doubt that if the rumours are true, dozens of footballers with tax ‘management’ schemes which fell foul of HMRC may be in for a shock in the near future.

As you know, gratuitous mockery or folk taking perverse pleasure in the misfortune of others is not the SFM way. I am confident that is not the case here – but I am sure Paddy can speak for himself on the matter

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PortbhoyPosted on11:26 pm - Dec 12, 2016


B.P,
I was only trying lighten up things wi’ a wee joke, …

Zat me banned ??

Not at all PB. Just a wee bit too much mockery is all.

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paddy malarkeyPosted on11:59 pm - Dec 12, 2016


I read this on the way home and thought about the problems we have in Scottish fitba’ wrt pyros .

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/11/seattle-seahawks-stadium-guns-proposed-bill-firearms

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paddy malarkeyPosted on12:14 am - Dec 13, 2016


BORDERSDONDECEMBER 12, 2016 at 21:20

Disgraceful ? In what way ?  A man doesn’t pay his taxes  and is made bankrupt ?  Absolutely ( copyright A McCoist) nothing to do with his personal demons . First in a long queue of football-related bankruptcies of footballers who declined to pay their taxes and used the monies for personal pleasure . My input was “Maybe the start of a long queue “, the rest was a BBC article . I think you are trying too hard to find offence, but would be pleased to hear your justification for the word “disgraceful”.  Hopefully not playing the man here, but willing to go to the naughty step (again) if required .  I honestly would like a reply so that I can view the world through your prism .
 Peace ,love and harmony ,the Thistle way .

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paddy malarkeyPosted on12:16 am - Dec 13, 2016


PS  Cheers, BP ,but….

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fan of footballPosted on6:59 am - Dec 13, 2016


MISTERLIGHTBULBJOKEDECEMBER 12, 2016 at 21:08
I am totally with you on that one .
There are so many aspects of this whole saga that seem to defy logic 

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Big PinkPosted on7:56 am - Dec 13, 2016


Paddy/Bordersdon
I think the disagreement demonstrates the non-binary nature of the tax thing. Personally, I’m not so sure many players are culpable. In the main, those who were involved in tax management schemes were badly advised and I have sympathy for them. I wouldn’t be surprised, if Paddy’s long queue is ever formed, if an avalanche of private lawsuits against personal advisers and/or clubs is launched. Of course another plump cherry to be picked by TRFC is that in this case, they will claim different club status. Still, some agents might find themselves being pursued by HMRC AND their clients.
In the case of Dean Windass, he does deserve our sympathy on a human level. He certainly has mine.

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Big PinkPosted on8:12 am - Dec 13, 2016


I know that Hearts fans would like to move on from the Cathro controversy, but I felt that we had to say something about it on the podcast. Ryan McGowan (really lovely guy despite all the Celtic players he has kicked), was being diplomatic about the reaction to Cathro but it seemed clear to me that he was angry, not just as a Hearts man, but as a sporting professional.
There is a shiny veil of respect and professionalism that enshrouds football. Sadly the slip of envy and resentment reveals itself from time to time. In the case of Kris Boyd and Steven Craigen, the shine was completely removed, revealing something quite ugly.
I don’t know Boyd, but I have met Craigen several times, and I am really disappointed and surprised?

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wottpiPosted on8:22 am - Dec 13, 2016


Re Dean Windass

Some may view it as a clear cut issue but for some it is a grey area when personal demons are driving you to steal money in the same way a drug addict is driven to rob to fund their habit.

Yes none of us like it but it has to be recognized that being driven by an addiction and possible mental health issues is different from pure greed.

However from reports the Windass situation seems to be a similar story to Colin Hendry in that a player has been given dodgy tax avoidance advice some years ago (in Windass’ case ‘film funding scam’), Hector has caught up with him and it may be that his financial plight has not been helped by other personal issues.

 

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wottpiPosted on9:08 am - Dec 13, 2016


BIG PINKDECEMBER 13, 2016 at 08:12

The problem with football it that is was always been a closed shop (with a closed mind) and the possibility of new ideas and methods has always been laughed at from within the game and by the sports reporting media.

For an example in years gone by when teams brought in a ballet dancer or yoga teacher etc it was always used as a fun item at the end of the sports report as opposed to taking a serious look at what another discipline could bring to the game.

Despite being backward thinking for years, luckily, there is now far more acceptance of specialist coaches psychologists dietitians etc. In Scotland  ‘Non professional-playing coaches’ is just the next thing that needs to be embraced.

(People seem to forget that lesser lights in playing terms such as Roxburgh and Brown did not too bad for the national team decades ago)

I am excited by the Cathro appointment but know and accept it might not work out. He is not the Messiah and neither is he the next best coaching development  since sliced bread (we all know he resides at Govan!!) However it is worth a try.

If not Cathro, supported by MacPhee, then who else would be available to Hearts in a Scottish context?

There is not one out of work manager that excites me ( e.g Rae and Farrell – 834 senior appearances between them) and not many in a job at other clubs that would offer anything better than Neilson did and what Cathro may bring to the table. 

Just imagine where British Cycling would have been if it had said to Dave Brailsford he wasn’t getting the job because he only cycled at an amateur level and was a bike salesman!! 

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bordersdonPosted on9:11 am - Dec 13, 2016


Big PinkDecember 12, 2016 at 23:11 
Bordersdon,
I understand the sensitivities here, but I don’t think that was Paddy’s intention. Windass’s problems are connected with HMRC issues.
————————————————————
OK I will own up to a bit of overreaction on this occasion. I have great sympathy for Dean Windass (read Deano) and as WOTTPI says above I am sure he was told he was acting perfectly legally regarding his tax arrangements.

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normanbatesmumfcPosted on9:58 am - Dec 13, 2016


AMFEARLIATHMÒRDECEMBER 12, 2016 at 17:26
    “However, I don’t expect for a moment that the SFA or SPFL will do anything about it – that might bring the focus uncomfortably back on them as to what circumstances might lead to them actually getting off their backsides and doing something.”
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

I am in total agreement here. Had the tribute act been in rude financial health, I’m sure the “regulatory bodies”, (ho ho ho) would have been all over this. We know they have a penchant for coming down heavily on smaller clubs, however in this case, any challenge to the SPL’s Ross County, could lead to a Dingwall demand for answers regarding financial issues in Govan. 

Best stay in the bunker on this one…..

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easyJamboPosted on10:14 am - Dec 13, 2016


I have enormous sympathy for anyone with mental health issues, but less so when it come to those who have sought to avoid paying tax.

It’s perhaps down to my left leaning politics, but virtually all those who took advice that it was ok to invest in these schemes were already earning much more than the average Joe.  It seems to be a widely accepted mantra that the more you earn the greater the desire to avoid tax, and the greater the opportunity to do so.

Look at the latest “image rights” fiasco, which allows top players to siphon off 20% of their contractual income into an offshore company. The players won’t complain about it as it reduces their PAYE tax liability, nor do the clubs as it reduces their NIC costs.  Isn’t it simply a redirection of earnings, which was the argument used by the CoS judges in the EBT case.  Let’s hope that the Supreme Court gives a clear and unequivocal ruling on what constitutes a “redirection of earnings” in order that such loopholes are closed.

Personally, I would make all tax avoidance schemes automatically illegal, unless the companies have written approval from HMRC for their particular scheme.

The most popular (and legal) tax avoidance scheme is probably the ISA, but even that requires a substantial amount of free funds in order to take full advantage of the current £15,240 annual limit. How much free funds do people on an average annual salary of around £28,000 have after paying PAYE, NIC and all their bills? 

Other widely used means of tax avoidance (probably more accurately “evasion”) are cash in the hand payments to tradesmen that don’t go through their books. Just consider how much better off our NHS and Social Services would be if everyone just paid what they were due. 

I’ll get off my soapbox.  11

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Big PinkPosted on11:20 am - Dec 13, 2016


EJ

I couldn’t agree more with your analysis and prognosis. Players who are involved in these schemes are legally responsible for what goes on in their name.

Where I think it is rather more nuanced is in the area of moral culpability, given that they often have limited resources in terms of understanding of these matters, and put their trust in the guys who talk them into decisions based not necessarily on the player’s own best interests, but on those of the adviser. 

Further, when it all comes apart at the pointy end of Hector’s stick, they are generally more than able to pay up what they are due. There are cases which fall between the cracks of that certainty though, and I do think that Windass is one of them.

Not the only one of course, but they don’t all get caught.

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Charlie_KellyPosted on11:45 am - Dec 13, 2016


“It seems to be a widely accepted mantra that the more you earn the greater the desire to avoid tax, and the greater the opportunity to do so”
Is it really that big a surprise that most people want to keep the money that they earn? In fact the only people who don’t have a problem with a 50% tax rate are normally the kind of people who neither have the talent or the work ethic for the top tax bracket to ever be an issue for them. So they are quite happy for others to be forced to hand over half of their earnings whilst they themselves are not forced to do likewise. The tax rate should be the same for everyone across the board and until it is then I have every sympathy for people who don’t wish to hand over half their wages or hand over a greater proportion of their wages than I do. I wouldn’t be happy handing over half of my income so it would be hypocritical of me to demand that others be forced to do it or for me to attempt to claim some sort of moral high ground on the subject when I myself am not paying 50% tax.

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neepheidPosted on12:52 pm - Dec 13, 2016


Charlie_KellyDecember 13, 2016 at 11:45    The tax rate should be the same for everyone across the board and until it is then I have every sympathy for people who don’t wish to hand over half their wages or hand over a greater proportion of their wages than I do. I wouldn’t be happy handing over half of my income so it would be hypocritical of me to demand that others be forced to do it or for me to attempt to claim some sort of moral high ground on the subject when I myself am not paying 50% tax.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
It’s not a question of being “happy” with taxation. Nobody is “happy” paying tax, regardless of rates.
It is surely a question of the rule of law. We cannot pick and choose which laws we obey or disobey on the basis of our personal happiness.
A Parliament of elected representatives passes the laws which set the tax rates. If you don’t like the tax rates, see your elected representative. Or emigrate. Or campaign for your point of view. In the meantime, simply obey the law, as we all should do. Happiness doesn’t come into it.

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bfbpuzzledPosted on1:12 pm - Dec 13, 2016


An ISA might be regarded as a bank recapitalisation scheme thus allowing more investment in the economy potentially feeding into job creation.
I see no obligation beyond what is required by the provisions of the tax code -if there are schemes which pauchle that the code should be changed to cut off these possibilities. That is easier said than done, because with any law no matter how simple it may be stated it seems a law of nature for opinions on it to multiply like mushrooms.
There might be an increase in mental illness among players who earned huge amounts while young and daft and then have to adjust to life after that, I read somewhere that 60% of English Premier League footballers were bankrupt five years after retirement. 
Ps I say mental illness deliberately the term mental health issues grates with me on many levels.

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wottpiPosted on1:25 pm - Dec 13, 2016


CHARLIE_KELLYDECEMBER 13, 2016 at 11:45

Fairly simple view of a complex issue.
Lets put things in terms of football.
Plenty folk play the game. My guess is that nearly all contributors to will have kicked a ball at some point. Many will have trained and played hard. However only a few ever get to the top and play the game for a living.
Some folk may never have had the opportunity (or these days the finances) to join an organised team.
Some folk may have been doing well but then got struck down with injury and illness.
Some folk may have tried and tried but at the end of the day their natural ability just wasn’t there.
Some folk may have simply not been the right height shape etc etc.

It is the same in the world of employment. There are only so many top jobs going around.
The reasons why everyone isn’t on top dollar and in the top posts are many and varied and very rarely down to just a simple lack of talent and work ethic.
For every Dyson there are a hundred inventors struggling away on developing the next best thing.
For every person with a solid work ethic and talent, but going nowhere, someone will be able to point to a talent-less idiot who is in post due to privilege and connections. (Lets just put up the name of ex-manager McCoist for than one!)

The adult female side of our society still have the reality of having to choose between family and career as, regardless of work ethic and talent, they can still find themselves sidelined for having the audacity to start a family.

Yes we have some scroungers and lazy bones at the bottom of the pile but we also have a fair few sociopathic greed merchants at the top. 

Progressive taxation is a means of balancing out society. (The problem for me is more how our politicians spend and direct that money, but that is another debate altogether)

If we don’t have a fair and reasonable tax system either the rich sociopaths will seek to control and destroy the average Joe  or the ‘have nots’ will end up revolting. Neither are pleasant prospects in my book so I for one am happy to pay the tax I owe within the current guidance. 

While I agree with Easyjambo that folks may be struggling to put money into an ISA when on average wage, tax incentives for saving and pension planning should always be encouraged to help reduce the burden on the state in later years.

Oooh – its all gone a bit political 🙂

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Charlie_KellyPosted on3:02 pm - Dec 13, 2016


“Progressive taxation is a means of balancing out society”
Well there we have it in a nutshell. It’s this obsession with equality of outcome that is the problem.  We aren’t all born equal in terms of our physical characteristics or our IQ. So if we have a free society where everyone is free to pursue their dreams (or to sit on the sofa watching X factor if they so choose) then we will quite clearly end up with a very unequal distribution of wealth as those with higher IQ’s will tend to out perform those with lower IQ’s. Those with a strong work ethic will tend to out perform those with a lower work ethic. There will of course be exceptions along the way and random luck will play a part in it but why wouldn’t it? 
“Balancing out society” means that the we need to hold back the fastest runners and stifle the most creative minds and have speech codes in place in case the people with new ideas offend anyone….and of course we need “progressive” tax laws incase someone earns more than the guy down the road. Its all very dark and sinister in my view. 
At the end of the day, you can have “equality of opportunity” or you can have “equality of outcome” but you can’t have both. 

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neepheidPosted on3:35 pm - Dec 13, 2016


Charlie_KellyDecember 13, 2016 at 15:02    “Balancing out society” means that the we need to hold back the fastest runners and stifle the most creative minds and have speech codes in place in case the people with new ideas offend anyone….and of course we need “progressive” tax laws incase someone earns more than the guy down the road. Its all very dark and sinister in my view. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Speech codes? What’s that got to do with progressive taxation? May I suggest absolutely nothing whatsoever?
There is no known system of progressive taxation of incomes that stops anyone earning more than anyone else- unless you can point me to one.
Let’s look at numbers. Say a top rate of 50% on incomes of £500k+, and a  bottom rate of 10% on incomes under £20k. Someone on £19k takes home £17,100. Someone on £500k takes home £250k. That is not equality of outcome, not by a country mile. “Dark and sinister”? Hardly.
In my working life I came across many high earners who would spend more on trying to avoid tax than the amount of tax they could ever possibly save. Sad people totally obsessed with tax, rather than making money.
Mug punters for the tax avoidance “industry”?  Obviously. The brightest and best? Fastest runners? Ah hae ma doots. Eejits? Clearly.

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StevieBCPosted on3:37 pm - Dec 13, 2016


Think I missed the memo that SFM had now become a tax forum ? 16

A frequent observation is that the ‘beautiful game’ is rapidly racing away from its roots as the peoples’ game.

A top EPL player on GBP250K+ a week is perhaps the current market rate, due to an abundance of TV money, but the sane supporters just don’t believe this is sustainable in the long term.  It looks like an expanding bubble which will eventually burst – and probably leave the professional game in absolute tatters.

And of course the irony for the Bampots: the abundantly cash rich RFC, [courtesy of BofS], still hit the buffers as it tried to avoid/evade paying its tax.

Ever richer players / managers are still trying to avoid paying their share of taxes, and it looks like it could all come back to bite them on their bum !  Don’t think the average UK tax payer – and who can’t afford to go to all their home games these days –  will shed any tears.

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wottpiPosted on3:37 pm - Dec 13, 2016


CHARLIE_KELLYDECEMBER 13, 2016 at 15:02

Point taken.

Maybe balancing out is a bit strong. I agree we cannot all be equal and that effort and talent deserves to be rewarded.

How about just having a fair and decent society where we help others have a decent standard of living instead of shitting on each other?

You know,  like the way the award winning, talented, hard working but tax avoiding SDM did to the game we all love?

£30k was nowt to him but he chased Airdrie into admin for it.

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erniePosted on3:58 pm - Dec 13, 2016


“In fact the only people who don’t have a problem with a 50% tax rate are normally the kind of people who neither have the talent or the work ethic for the top tax bracket to ever be an issue for them.”
From my personal experience that is a load of bollox.  Higher taxation for higher earners is accepted as basic fiscal good practice. Also…..
“So they are quite happy for others to be forced to hand over half of their earnings whilst they themselves are not forced to do likewise.”
No one pays half of their earnings: there are limits whereupon 40% and 45% (£150k) kicks in.  Fitba players et al should enjoy it and stop greetin’. Dodgy tax avoidance is subsidised by the majority of us tax payers: don’t attempt to justify it.  Otherwise we’d all be congratulating SDM and the rest of the spivs.

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Kid GlovesPosted on5:10 pm - Dec 13, 2016


@CHARLIE KELLY
Paying a wee bit more and helping society if you’re doing well is the price we should be prepared to pay in order to have a fair and civilised society. Not all poor people are feckless layabouts and a lot of them will work harder than you do. I would imagine an 8 hour nightshift as cleaner for the minimum wage would not be much fun.

Nobody made it to the top on their own. Even millionaires need people to work for them, people who need to be educated, clothed, fed and kept healthy. 

It drives me crazy when we find billionaires like Philip Green keep their money in tax havens. We allow these people the privilege (and it should be seen as a privilege) of access to our population. The price should be that they put their fare share back in. We’re not asking for all of it, just enough to keep the wheels of society rolling.

Think about this. I used to work for a national newspaper. A local retailer would pay money to advertise to our readers. They would pay and in turn it kept the lights on. Hundreds of people were employed at the paper. They paid tax on their salary and bought stuff in local shops. The money was endlessly recirculated through our society and many people benefitted.

Then Google came in and the same companies started advertising with Google. The money stopped coming in to the paper and many people lost their jobs and the money trail went cold. Google takes the advertising revenue out of the country, hardly paying a penny in tax. Everyone except Google loses out. IS THIS FAIR? And the same goes for Facebook, Amazon, Starbucks etc… We just stand by and watch ourselves getting mugged.

Being allowed access to our population to trade should be seen as a privilege and paying your fair share should be seen as the price of living in a decent 21st century society.

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Big PinkPosted on5:24 pm - Dec 13, 2016


Charlie_KellyDecember 13, 2016 at 15:02 “Balancing out society” means that the we need to hold back the fastest runners and stifle the most creative minds

.

.

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No it doesn’t.


EJ
See what you’ve started? I must admit it is a bit of a shock to hear that Norman Tebbit bicycle economics is subscribed to by SFM-ers, but I am still with you on this one.

Taxation is necessary in a civilised society, the more progressive the taxation the more civilised the society. I must confess to be troubled by views which disagree with that. However, as StevieBC says, this is not a tax forum.

So we are imposing a 100% superlevy and immediate silent speech codes on the subject 21

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AllyjamboPosted on5:48 pm - Dec 13, 2016


Was going to have my tuppence(after tax) worth on taxation, but after BP’s wise words…

Anyway, I see there’s much talk about netting going up (?) at Ibrox. Well PMGB has put himself on the line again, as this will be proven one way or the other very soon, so his reputation as a blogger and journalist will come under fire if no nets are seen on the Ibrox roofs.

I, personally, will not be surprised if they do appear, for the RIFC accounts told us that £500,000 of stadium repairs were required, though no details were given. If work, even just remedial work to the tune of half a million, is required to the roofs, then I am certain safety netting would be a prerequisite of such work. That said, if minor repair work is about to begin on the roofs, why no announcement from the club? Surely it is the kind of information that should be put out at the earliest opportunity, unless the reality is more along the lines of what PMGB is suggesting, and the netting is there in lieu of a proper, more expensive, repair.

As ever, lies and deceit, along with downright criminal (in)action, are forever believable when people talk of TRFC under it’s current leadership!

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goosygoosyPosted on6:16 pm - Dec 13, 2016


BBC 13 Dec 2016
The Scottish Football Association is to set up an “independent review” of child abuse allegations in football.
Several former players have come forward to say they were abused by people in positions of authority.
The SFA said it wanted to reassure people that football was a “safe and enjoyable environment for children”.
It said the review would focus on “processes and procedures” in place both currently and historically in Scottish football
The SFA said it was “imperative that we take the necessary time and guidance” to ensure its review complemented the work of the police.
It said it has taken initial steps towards establishing an appropriate scope and terms of reference for the review.
It added: “The initial scoping phase will take place with involvement from all stakeholders into the New Year, and once established we will comment further at the appropriate time”.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
So it’s exactly like we feared it would be
Without any embarrassment whatsoever the SFA have decided that.an Independent Review can still be called “Independent” even when the Terms of Reference are not decided independently
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Don`t they understand the meaning of the word “independent”?
A 30 second Google will reveal
The word “Independent” used as an adjective
Means all of the following
1. Not influenced or controlled by others in matters of opinion, conduct, etc.
 Thinking or acting for one:
2. Not subject to another’s authority or jurisdiction; autonomous; free:
3. Not influenced by the thought or action of others
4. Not dependent; not depending or contingent upon something else for existence, operation, etc.
5. Not relying on another or others for aid or support.
6. Rejecting others’ aid or support; refusing to be under obligation to others.
7. Possessing a competency
 
So
 
Does the SFA prescribing the Terms of Reference sound like a proper
first step for a so called “Independent Review”?
Does this action agree with the definition of Independent?
 
Not in my book
 
It smells of fear
 
The next piece of fear driven effrontery will no doubt be selecting a pet “Independent Chairman” to lead the so called “Independent Review”
 
Someone who can be relied on to ignore CA evidence in the public domain that is out with the scope of the “Terms of Reference” generated by the SFA
 
……………………
SFA chief executive Stewart Regan also said: “Police Scotland has reaffirmed that it is the investigatory authority regarding reports of child sexual abuse in football.
“It is therefore crucial to draw the distinction between their on-going investigation and what lessons football can learn from historic allegations.”
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 Sounds like
The Cops have told the SFA that Police Scotland are the sole body responsible for any truly “Independent Review” into CA in football
Hopefully they made clear to the SFA that any “Review” with ToR prescribed by the SFA should not be described as “Independent”
 
I hope they did
 
If Not
 
Scottish Football is heading for a situation where the standard SFA response to questions about specific cases in the public domain will be stonewalled pending the outcome of so called “Independent Review” commissioned by the SFA
i.e.
The SFA will attempt to conflate the Police Scotland investigation with their own internal investigation when it suits them and distance the two investigation on occasions when that seems more expedient
 Or put another way
LNS hypocrisy all over again
 
 
.
 
 

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jean7brodiePosted on6:20 pm - Dec 13, 2016


wottpiDecember 13, 2016 at 13:25

…tax incentives for saving and pension planning should always be encouraged to help reduce the burden on the state in later years.
____________________________________________________
Don’t even go there. I am a WASPI woman who has paid NI contributions and Tax for 43 years+.  I planned retiring at 60, as was agreed, but my state pension has been delayed/stolen till I am 64.5 years.
I am reducing the burden on the state by having to continue working!!
Disgusting treatment of women born in the 1950’s.
Sorry BP but it had to be said.

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Big PinkPosted on6:22 pm - Dec 13, 2016


EJ

Netting is used to prevent small objects from being accidentally (or deliberately) discarded. For example below TV gantries. It is also used to prevent birds from nesting. You can see it at grounds all over the country. It certainly isn’t used to catch falling structural members or cladding. 

I would not describe anything that would stop a chunk of roof from falling on top of spectators as ‘netting’. Such a thing would need to be a whole lot more robust than netting – and would perhaps be more expensive than a repair.

There may well be an issue with the roof at Ibrox, but I don’t think it’s one with H&S implications. I cannot conceive of a situation where either the TRFC board or Glasgow District Council would consciously put themselves on the line for the civil, criminal and professional repercussions that would come their way in the event of an accident due to something they had ignored – or even if someone goes into whistleblower mode. 

I think we are swimming up the same water pipe that leads to the church on Paisley Road West.

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StevieBCPosted on8:22 pm - Dec 13, 2016


GOOSYGOOSY
DECEMBER 13, 2016 at 18:16 BBC 13 Dec 2016The Scottish Football Association is to set up an “independent review” of child abuse allegations in football…
=============================
Agreed, GG: to a blind man this would certainly not be an independent review.
And what makes the SFA think it has the ability – and expertise – to even draw up the ToR ?

Looks like the first punt into the long grass by the SFA.
The LNS nonsense took a few years, and that was a relatively straightforward investigation.
This inquiry is arguably much more complex, sensitive, and covers potentially several decades.

And presumably, the SFA will aim to ensure it did not ignore evidence, or was glaringly – but not criminally –  negligent, in order to minimise the risk of potential claims from alleged victims ?

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wottpiPosted on9:13 pm - Dec 13, 2016


Within all the talk about roof failures at Ibrox I note there has been mention of netting.

I would put forward the suggestion scenario that the netting is ‘safety arrest netting’ to protect workers from falling at height.

The company below has provided such netting for construction works at Wembley and Brighton’s ground.

http://www.highaccesssolutions.co.uk/services/temporary-safety-systems/safety-nets/

As we know some flashing on the roof came loose last season and it may be that either inspection works or maintenance is to be provided on the underside of the roofs.

If full access to the roof structure is not available from internal access points it may be that the netting is required so that a detailed survey of the external condition of the roofs can be undertaken.

Given the difficulty in reaching these external areas , some form of temporary gantry access will be required and the netting would therefore allow safe working conditions to undertake such work on non-game days and pose no problems whatsoever for fans attending games.

The winter break will give around two and a half weeks for works to be undertaken when the stadium is not being used, so maybe they are gearing up for works during that down time or planning for the off season.

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