Our First podcast features a general discussion involving our own Big Pink and Auldheid.
Since it is the first podcast there is no particular agenda save for a general chat about TSFM, the state of Scottish Football, and some few reminiscences. The chat covers a lot of ground, but establishes the ethos of the blog pretty well.
Topics discussed include FPP, Leadership, Interdependence, Scotland’s self-regard, Coaching and Nurturing of Talent, Redistribution of Income, Rangers, Forgiveness, domestic strife 🙂
The interview was conducted a couple of days before the latest round of Armageddon, when Big Pink and Auldheid felt safe and well 🙂
The link below is to the iTunes store page for our Podcasts. If you go there, you can subscribe to the podcast (on your PC or iPhone) and new episodes will automatically be sent to you.
Since we have just been approved for a spot on iTunes, the iTunes search side of things may not work properly for a day or so.
wottpi says:
February 21, 2014 at 12:46 pm
“…Charles appeared on STV saying if the fans didn’t take up their full alocation he would offer them back to the market and if nobody took then up he would but them all up himself.”
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I presume the unallocated shares must therefore now be in the possession of Charles Green’s grandchildren. Mystery solved.
arabest1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 2:15 pm
“Dundee United continue the feel good factor …”
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Whilst not wishing to diminish the wind in your sails Arabest, the following quote from Thompson alluded to a bigger picture for me.
“Scottish football continues to face challenging economic conditions and this is not anticipated to ease in the near future,”
Is this subliminal speak for ‘We need Rangers back where they belong’. I can see the logic since, as others have alluded to, the TV people might be a bit more generous if the Ancien Regime can be reinstated. Might this be a chink of light into the darkness explaining the general complicity of Scottish football in seeking out the devil they know.
Campbellsmoney says:
February 21, 2014 at 7:03 am
Thanks for that explanation, you’ve answered my question about 8 hours before I asked it 🙄
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 1:55 pm
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FWIW there were two Dunlop Streets in the Glasgow voters roll of 1913-14. The one in Tollcross subsequently became Corbett St at some later date. The earliest map reference I can find to a Dunlop Street in Tollcross is 1861. Prior to that the area would appear to have been grassland as the maps prior to 1861 do not show any roads or habitable properties in that area.
Allyjambo says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:32 pm
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Campbellsmoney says:
February 21, 2014 at 7:03 am
Thanks for that explanation, you’ve answered my question about 8 hours before I asked it
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Its the time difference between where you are and Samoa. 😀
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 1:55 pm
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La Pasionaria, Dolores Ibárruri, is a passion of mine and her life story is fascinating.
Her use of Emiliano Zapata’s evocative phrase was extremely fitting during the struggle in Asturias and indeed during any struggle.
Campbellsmoney says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:22 pm
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Para Handy says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:12 pm
It was I who asked Campbellsmoney, and yes, it was in reference to 1692.
With my roots in Inveraray, I too have it as part of my heritage…
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And Para Handy, wasn’t yer man Munro himself from Inveraray?
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Indeed he was and is also my connection to the area (my great grand-dad) and a journalist to boot! I bet he would be turning in his grave at the current state of the newspaper industry.
Completely O/T but I am currently reading his son’s diaries (after whom I am named) from the WW1 trenches (where he was killed). It really brings home the horror of it all with death , injury and illness the norm.
Castofthousands says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:31 pm
Not sure I’d read that into Stephen Thompson’s comment that
“Scottish football continues to face challenging economic conditions and this is not anticipated to ease in the near future,”
To me it is as likely to mean that the turbulence / uncertainty generated by the Ibrox club’s finances may well continue to be an issue (because their problems will continue) so don’t rely on the TV companies offering a better deal because the Glasgow club rivalry will be back. ST has to manage the expectations of the United fans and staff and stressing that we need to keep our seat belts on for turbulence is one way to do it.
I had a quick search too tomtom and I’m sure any Rangers fan not familiar with central Glasgow could readily find the same. I’m certain that ecobhoy’s rebuttal of FTH wouldn’t be entertained on Football Tax Havens but how about a OCNC kind of entertainment on here with an ecobhoy-john stevens dodgy land deals face-off. I’m sure that John’s so certain of his ground that he’d be happy do a guest blog on the subject. All in the best interest of open scrutiny of what’s going on in Scottish Football of course.
Castofthousands says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:24 pm
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wottpi says:
February 21, 2014 at 12:46 pm
“…Charles appeared on STV saying if the fans didn’t take up their full alocation he would offer them back to the market and if nobody took then up he would but them all up himself.”
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I presume the unallocated shares must therefore now be in the possession of Charles Green’s grandchildren. Mystery solved.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
……………story over, fade to end credits running while playing Zadok the Priest 🙂
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 1:55 pm
Stellar post, thank you.
This back and forth between yourself and Fth is indicative of so much about this whole saga and the role that first RTC and now TSFM has played in it. On one side you have the Sevconians and their ilk starting with cherished truths (Celtic got a sweetheart land deal, Rangers belong in the top division) and then cherry picking and distorting evidence and rules to make it fit those truths. On the other side are the bampots, who, for the most part, are not invested or committed to any truth per se, but rather investigate the evidence and the rules and then draw whatever conclusions these support. One side starts with a conclusion. The other starts with a question. It reminds me of this quote from Karl Rove in the New York Times a few years back (given anonymously at the time – Charlotte-style, if you will – the “aide” was later revealed to be old Turd Blossom himself):
“The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” … “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
The reality-based community versus an arrogant empire creating its own reality. Seems awfy familiar so it does.
Questions
Now that RIFC made a regulatory news announcement about seeking the loan are they obliged to report on the outcome of the ongoing negotiations regardless of how they end?
I would imagine that it will be hard to supress any news if the loan wasn’t agreed but perhaps easier to keep the SMSM at bay a bit longer than the markets?
Castofthousands says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:31 pm
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arabest1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 2:15 pm
“Dundee United continue the feel good factor …”
————————————
Whilst not wishing to diminish the wind in your sails Arabest, the following quote from Thompson alluded to a bigger picture for me.
“Scottish football continues to face challenging economic conditions and this is not anticipated to ease in the near future,”
Is this subliminal speak for ‘We need Rangers back where they belong’. I can see the logic since, as others have alluded to, the TV people might be a bit more generous if the Ancien Regime can be reinstated. Might this be a chink of light into the darkness explaining the general complicity of Scottish football in seeking out the devil they know.
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If Mr. Thompson is subliminally “needing the Rangers back” then he is guilty of serious revisionism. Scottish football is not facing “challenging economic conditions” because the Rangers are where they are or whilst they are. We have been facing these conditions for some time which is why our worst run club (by far), albeit one of the biggest two (by far), went bust.
tomtom says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:34 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 1:55 pm
========================
FWIW there were two Dunlop Streets in the Glasgow voters roll of 1913-14. The one in Tollcross subsequently became Corbett St at some later date. The earliest map reference I can find to a Dunlop Street in Tollcross is 1861. Prior to that the area would appear to have been grassland as the maps prior to 1861 do not show any roads or habitable properties in that area.
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Thanks for that as I had intended out of curiosity to check when the Tollcross Dunlop Street came into existance but that dratted thing called work got in the way – which it always seems to manage on a Friday 🙁
Of course that actually reinforces my point because Fth are claiming that Dunlop Street in Tollcross existed in 1828-29 and used the Glasgow Post-office directory as proof of this but ignored the fact that Tollcross wasn’t included in Glasgow back then.
Even more seriously Fth ignored the fact that the directory identifies Dunlop Street as being situated between Argyle Street and the Clyde right in Glascow City Centre which is a long way from Tollcross. I have discovered that just about every ‘fact’ contained in Fth falls apart even on cursory examination.
The problem with Fth and the Bear Land ‘Experts’ is that they have continually shifted their ground as their pit-props of State Aid evidence have been kicked away. They are now left withe using lies and twisting fact beyond recognition to suit their agenda.
Basically all they are left with is proving there was no contamination on the Westthorn site which merited a substantial discount on the sale price from GCC to Celtic.
What they conveniently ignore is that no one has ever stated there was any contamination at Westthorn and that the actual reason for the reduction in price was mainly because of the blast-zone created by the 19 adjacent whisky storage and maturation warehouses and probably ‘abnormal ground conditions’ through the mining legacy as well as some other more minor issues involving made-up land and possibly dubious in-fill.
I have certainly become very interested in the states of the collective Bear mind on this whole issue as they laud the ‘brilliant investigative efforts’ of Fth. I haven’t seen a single Bear voice raised to say: ‘Hey that’s nonsense’.
In a way it’s a kind of ‘mass blindness’ which also seems to blinker their thinking on the financial side of things as well. If only they would waken-up, open their eyes and THINK. Then ask the right questions to get at the truth. If they don’t do so soon it will be too late and I’m afraid they will end-up with the club they deserve IMO.
Castofthousands says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:31 pm
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arabest1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 2:15 pm
“Dundee United continue the feel good factor …”
————————————
Whilst not wishing to diminish the wind in your sails Arabest, the following quote from Thompson alluded to a bigger picture for me.
“Scottish football continues to face challenging economic conditions and this is not anticipated to ease in the near future,”
Is this subliminal speak for ‘We need Rangers back where they belong’. I can see the logic since, as others have alluded to, the TV people might be a bit more generous if the Ancien Regime can be reinstated. Might this be a chink of light into the darkness explaining the general complicity of Scottish football in seeking out the devil they know.
———————————————————————–
On one level COT ST’s quotation is beyond reasonable argument. The Rangers debacle has many dimensions. I remember Dundee United rebuilding Tannadice largely from the sale of players to Rangers. I remember the club making large sums of money from title deciders involving Rangers/Celtic. At some level or other most top flight clubs would have had enjoyed full houses and significant revenue from the duopoly that reigned for two decades. I do not need to list the many counter points to each of these I think we are all well versed in this, suffice to say clubs have needed to tread carefully over the last couple of years to adapt to the new circumstances. ST has steered a course through some challenging circumstances and deserves enormous credit for the way he has filled the big shoes left by his father. Not above criticism, but certainly deserving of credit.
Reply is in from Games Delivery Team to my email about stadium safety. It came in by email on 19th, but I have only just opened the attachment ,which reads as follows:
” Commonwealth Games and Sport Directorate,
Commonwealth Games Division
Our ref: 2014/0002600
February 2014
Dear Mr Clarke,
Thank you for your email of 14 January to the Minister for the Commonwealth Games about safety concerns at Ibrox Stadium during the games. I work in the Games Delivery Team and have been asked to respond on her behalf.
I can confirm that the issues with the roof have been repaired by Rangers Football Club and we have no concerns over the safety of the venue.The Safety Advisory Group, Glasgow City Council and the Glasgow 2014 Organising Committee (OC) were kept fully informed and a planned inspection was carried out at the venue at the start of January. In addition, the OC must comply with primary legislation for the safety of spectators at all venues and is working closely with Glasgow City Council Licensing and Rangers Football Club to ensure the safety of spectators and those working at this venue. There are regular planned inspections and safety meetings to ensure due diligence in respect of safety. Before the venue is handed over to Glasgow 2014, there will be a final handover inspection.
All Games venues receive rigorous safety checking in advance of the Games. In addition, every venue will be checked each morning and will not be allowed to open to the public until it has passed inspection.
i hope this information is helpful.
Yours sincerely
………..
Games Delivery team.
Campbellsmoney says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:40 pm
Its the time difference between where you are and Samoa. 😀
___________________________________________________________
And I’m still trying to catch up 😳
arabest1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 4:13 pm
I do not need to list the many counter points to each of these I think we are all well versed in this, suffice to say clubs have needed to tread carefully over the last couple of years to adapt to the new circumstances.
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The need for clubs (certainly those in the top flight) to tread carefully over the past couple of years is not down to the absence of RFC or a lack of real challenge from the other clubs in the SPFL. It is more to do with the general world economy than any wounds inflicted by a lack of RFC. Last week I watched two games from La Liga – which at the moment would seem to be a highly competitive league. The attendance at the Nou Camp was given as approx 20% short of capacity for what would seem to have been an attractive game. I don’t know what the attendance was for the Real Madrid away game but there were more empty seats than filled ones. If these two clubs can’t attract the crowds that they used to what chance do mere mortal clubs have?
ernie says:
February 21, 2014 at 4:10 pm
“If Mr. Thompson is subliminally “needing the Rangers back” then he is guilty of serious revisionism. ”
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ernie, I wasn’t making an assertion just positing a possibility. We have long wondered how conflicted individuals within the SFA retain their authority when supporters and fans of many clubs are indignant concerning their actions.
I take Taysider’s point that there is no single reading that elucidates the truth. I just think that sometimes the language can betray itself and thought this might be an occasion when it did so. If 2+2<5 then I'm happy with that. I didn't want to kick off an argument just sow some subtle seeds.
posmill says:
February 21, 2014 at 4:09 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 1:55 pm
I have never come across that observation of Karl Rove previously – nice one ❗
I actually had sat back and basically ignored all the Land Deal allegations until January when I saw the Fth post on Lennoxtown and as I have some long-term connections with the village it didn’t quite fit with half-remembered recollections.
I did a quick google recce and didn’t actually find anything that provided satisfactory answers to the questions raised in my mind so I decided to check things out for myself. As I peeled back the layers of the land claims I realised just how truth had been distorted and I also formed the opinion that a guiding PR hand had become involved and breathed fresh life into what had become a tired and largely ignored Bear campaign.
I now firmly believe that campaign was launched to delivered a platform to attack Celtic and also to deflect the Bears from their own problems.
However my modus operandi is to attempt to establish the truth as far as is possible based on irrefutable facts and to put it out there and see what reaction and info flow-back and whether my previously held position requires alteration.
I am struggling to think of one ‘fact’ peddled by the Bear Land ‘Experts’ that is true or hasn’t been twisted beyond any recognition from its original meaning. In my experience this either requires the utmost stupidity or a very skilled and highly orchestrated campaign.
The jury is still out on that but it may well end-up a mixture of both 😉
Well done to ‘our Boys’ today.
A Silver Medal at the Olympics is a Great achievement.
blu says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:57 pm
tomtom says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:34 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 1:55 pm
========================
FWIW there were two Dunlop Streets in the Glasgow voters roll of 1913-14. The one in Tollcross subsequently became Corbett St at some later date. The earliest map reference I can find to a Dunlop Street in Tollcross is 1861. Prior to that the area would appear to have been grassland as the maps prior to 1861 do not show any roads or habitable properties in that area.
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I had a quick search too tomtom and I’m sure any Rangers fan not familiar with central Glasgow could readily find the same. I’m certain that ecobhoy’s rebuttal of FTH wouldn’t be entertained on Football Tax Havens but how about a OCNC kind of entertainment on here with an ecobhoy-john stevens dodgy land deals face-off. I’m sure that John’s so certain of his ground that he’d be happy do a guest blog on the subject. All in the best interest of open scrutiny of what’s going on in Scottish Football of course.
=========================================================================
I may have misunderstood you Blu but tomtom’s post actually confirms what I have said which simply put is that in 1828-29 there was only one Dunlop Street in Glasgow and it is still in the same place today and there was never a coal mine on it. That is the opposite of what Fth claimed in their Blog so I was pleased to receive independent corroboration of my position.
As to pzj being allowed a guest blog – perhaps you didn’t see what he wrote about PL over the last couple of days which led to his twitter account being closed and him receiving a yellow card for the material which was removed.
However pzj has his own twitter account where he broadcasts his particualr ‘message’ and also McMurdo’s Blog where he is a major presence and even labelled as the ‘fabled pzj’ by the young McMurdo. Oh that one day I might become ‘fabled’ instead of a legend in my own lunchtime 😆
I have given a detailed explanation that the Fth post today is ‘mince’ and if you disagree with the various statements I have made to support my position then I would love to hear where I have erred as I always retain an open mind.
I look forward to your observations.
Bill Millar’s guy saying I told you so……………..
(edit to add) – for those who have not read his article in forbes below at bottom link, please do so – it is one of the best accounts and summaries of the RFC-NIL issues – hope RCO and SR read it………
Jon L. Pritchett @tobaccoroadguy · 3h
I hate to be such an “I told you so” to my friends in Scotland, but…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2564406/Wallace-promises-Rangers-faithful-club-avoid-administration-negotiations-continue-secure-1-5m-loan.html …
Jon L. Pritchett @tobaccoroadguy · 3h
For those who care to look back at the blatantly obvious mathematics of Rangers, here is my article from 2012. http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2012/10/08/what-can-we-learn-from-the-financial-meltdown-of-glasgow-rangers-fc/ …
tomtom says:
February 21, 2014 at 4:28 pm
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arabest1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 4:13 pm
I do not need to list the many counter points to each of these I think we are all well versed in this, suffice to say clubs have needed to tread carefully over the last couple of years to adapt to the new circumstances.
=========================================
The need for clubs (certainly those in the top flight) to tread carefully over the past couple of years is not down to the absence of RFC or a lack of real challenge from the other clubs in the SPFL. It is more to do with the general world economy than any wounds inflicted by a lack of RFC. Last week I watched two games from La Liga – which at the moment would seem to be a highly competitive league. The attendance at the Nou Camp was given as approx 20% short of capacity for what would seem to have been an attractive game. I don’t know what the attendance was for the Real Madrid away game but there were more empty seats than filled ones. If these two clubs can’t attract the crowds that they used to what chance do mere mortal clubs have?
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Feel free to list the counters if you want tomtom! 😉
100BJD 2:06 pm – that’s pretty much the scenario described in huge detail on CQN a few months ago.
Any chance folk might show some imagination and not give results of sports events others might be recording. Some folk might have liked to watch curling after work ….
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 4:32 pm
You had questions and you investigated them with an open mind, which is laudable. I’m sure most, if not all Bears, have questions, too, but, a big part of their problem is that too few of them seem willing to do the same. My hypothesis (not “theory”, mind) is that blind faith – articulated through such shibboleths* as “follow follow” and “loyal” – is so ingrained into the belief system that the very act of questioning what the leadership says places them outside the social system.
*I love that word. I also love the story behind it which, if anyone’s interested, can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth
Bryce Curdy says:
February 21, 2014 at 5:14 pm
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100BJD 2:06 pm – that’s pretty much the scenario described in huge detail on CQN a few months ago.
I have never been on CQN Bryce although I think there are a few people having similar thoughts…..as ever we will see
Agreed – take with a pinch of salt – as the following extract is from Derek Johnstone’s ET column, [presumably ‘authored’ by a ghost writer], but it is interesting all the same ?
Is this another piece of PR ‘preparation’ being slipped into the SMSM ?
==========================================================
“…I am led to believe that, because the way the club is set up at the moment, Rangers would be unable to accept any investment from King [sic].
But that may well change in the future if, as is looking increasingly likely, there is a second share offering…”
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/rangers/rangerscomment/derek-johnstone-blind-faith-wont-be-enough-for-rangers-fans-club-need-153021n.23493467
Ah yes, a second share offering. Like the fan ownership vehicle of the titanic, a yellow inflatable thing with a neck hole in it!
I try to retain a stuck up disdain for contributions that merely seek to make petty mockery of our fellow citizens. However, my mask is about to slip.
There is something about Graham Wallace’s fixed grin in the newspaper articles shown above that appeared familiar. Then it dawned on me:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ec/Wallace_and_gromit.jpg
That Derek Johnstone article is just desperate stuff…
‘But I think it would help supporters work together with the club if it was explained why an investment from King was turned down if, indeed, it actually was.’
Because IF he was stupid enough to hand over money to the leeches presently in charge, it would disappear.
OR he might want something in return e.g. a seat on the board but due to a) his directorship of RFC (IL) and b) his convictions for tax offences overseas this would be problematic.
Its the old story of pretend-y saviours and billionaires. If real billionaires like Bills Miller and Ng walked away, then the cavalry ain’t coming, lads.
Hi.
Previously Barcabuster.
Just noticed my moniker has changed.
Thanks to the mods.
@Danish.
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, but I notice Castofthousands has put up the figures you asked for.
Didn’t mean to be rude. 😉
Corrupt official says:
February 21, 2014 at 6:26 pm
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@Danish.
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, but I notice Castofthousands has put up the figures you asked for.
Didn’t mean to be rude.
———–
Not at all, I just ask questions — some dumber than others 🙂
I like the new call sign, btw.
100BJD says:
February 21, 2014 at 2:06 pm
35 2 Rate This
… Craigiebhoy controlled the admin process to a large extent because his shares were vital to the original CVA. I wrote at the time that he would have covered both bases in assigning his shares to the Chico camp. Therefore his deal, whatever it was, worked in an unlikely CVA or liquidation. He was royally shafted by the advent of Sevco Scotland. The novation of the asset of 5088 namely the sole rights of the deal document has yet to be explained. Undoubtedly the Duffers had to see a proper novation or they legally could not sanction the deal. Therefore they saw something presumably signed by Chico. The big issue here is the potential “ultra vires” nature of the transaction.This is presumably why Craigie and Earley were claiming to be directors so that they could claim they did not agree with the transaction and therefore the deal was fraudulent. I equally assume that other interested third parties such as potential lenders will be having the same issue which may explain why there appears to be a problem obtaining funds.
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Great post.
One of the key parts of the recording of Green, Stockbridge and Whyte is on the peterjung edit & remaster at about 28min in. It’s the ‘You are Sevco’ bit where a deed of release is mentioned. It was discussed the other day on here and it sounds very much as though Green’s insistence on Sevco Scotland was a mere formality to satisfy Scottish law, well he said something to that effect, but the implication was — “You are Sevco”, meaning Whyte, of course.
You hear Whyte signing papers, and he does remind Green that even though the cva fails, the ‘debenture’ would not be worthless. I’m thinking that there must be some physical evidence in the form of paperwork to substantiate Whyte’s claim. Either that or some more audio which could drop someone in the deep cow dung. The audio that we can hear is pretty convincing in itself, but there may be more.
Whyte must have something more, is my thought. There was even a sinister suggestion by CF that Whyte’s life was threatened. Whatever, he still appears to be a major pain in the rectum to the guys currently pulling the strings.
Any thoughts on the deed of release?
ecobhoy, I think you did misunderstand me. My point was that anyone of us could have cleared up the issue of the Dunlop Street location within minutes with a search engine (I did so after reading your earlier post), you and others familiar with the city would simply have known. Neither the Football Tax Havens blogger nor any of his cheerleaders could do so. Your interpretation is that he chose to just make it up because it suited his agenda, maybe so. My point about John Stevens being invited to write a guest blog on the land deals matter isn’t entirely in jest – let’s see if he’s prepared to have his assertions tested. I’m pretty certain that you wouldn’t be allowed to make the points you have here on TSFM on FTH. Whether you could be bothered engaging with him, I don’t know.
Danish Pastry says:
February 21, 2014 at 6:59 pm
Any thoughts on the deed of release?
======================
My thoughts are that there must have been some charge over the RFC assets, which only Whyte could release. It seems that Green needed the release to be signed, otherwise matters couldn’t progress. All I can come up with is Whyte’s floating charge, but I had understood from comments on here that his floating charge couldn’t survive the transfer of the assets anyway? I’m not qualified to express an opinion on that, so expert opinion welcome.
neepheid says:
February 21, 2014 at 7:12 pm
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Danish Pastry says:
February 21, 2014 at 6:59 pm
Any thoughts on the deed of release?
======================
My thoughts are that there must have been some charge over the RFC assets, which only Whyte could release. It seems that Green needed the release to be signed, otherwise matters couldn’t progress. All I can come up with is Whyte’s floating charge, but I had understood from comments on here that his floating charge couldn’t survive the transfer of the assets anyway? I’m not qualified to express an opinion on that, so expert opinion welcome.
———–
Maybe he wrote “Craig Thomas Whyte” and the dead of release is therefore invalid? John Brown was shown or told something that convinced him that Craig Whyte was still involved.
Corrupt Official nice choice of name ! The initial CO seem particularly appropriate for that moniker, and if you wanted to take it a stage further then Really Corrupt Official , RCO is even more illustrative of what has been happening in our countries national sport.
The article by Jon Pritchett that I tweeted about and Exiled Celt posted on is very well worth a read. It supports much of what was dismissed by PR hired hands and vested interests as internet Bampottery.
This sentence sums up where we are today, and in fact have been for a long number of years since Murray’s ego ruined Rangers
“Upon full inspection, Rangers was not a “turnaround” opportunity. It was (and is) an opportunity for someone with great wealth and a love of football and/or Scotland to give away tens and tens of millions of pounds. Unless some major, systemic changes occur within the current configuration of UK and European football leagues, I don’t think the Rangers math works”
Now this was written by an investment professional with full access to the financial data and contractual obligations . It is no wonder that those who invested with Green at the pre IPO stage ensured they got their money back at the first opportunity.
I doubt that many on here need the endorsement of those who were publicly involved , or the recognition that we were right, however it’s nice to at least know that someone who took the time and effort to really understand the situation came to the same conclusion as the majority on here.
The key issues have been flagged on here , from a very early stage, and way before the relevance was widely understood. As we stand today the Sevco 5088 to Sevco Scotland “entitlement to buy the assets “issue is a major obstacle to any rescue attempt. That was highlighted on here as the key issue almost as soon as the right of pre-emption documentation appeared at companies house, even in its redacted form.
Rangers predicament is a simple situation really, obfuscated by PR and ignorance amongst many Sports journalists. Although an increasing number are getting up to speed.
In simple terms the Club is not big enough and never has been to afford the expense of Auchenhowie and cannot afford the most expensive squad in Scotland . Until that reality sinks home permanently the merry-go-round will continue . Crisis management will become standard modus operandi, long term thinking and planning will not be allowed to take root , and necessary cornerstones for a successful business, such as conventional banking facilities and beneficial supplier contracts , are either absent or minimal.
neepheid says:
February 21, 2014 at 7:12 pm
My thoughts are that there must have been some charge over the RFC assets, which only Whyte could release. It seems that Green needed the release to be signed, otherwise matters couldn’t progress. All I can come up with is Whyte’s floating charge, but I had understood from comments on here that his floating charge couldn’t survive the transfer of the assets anyway?
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As I said the other day, I believe the ‘deed of release’ does relate to the floating charge.
It wouldn’t survive the transfer of assets, but would still have been applicable in the CVA scenario (if there was any real debt attached to it, which D&P disputed).
BigGav says:
February 21, 2014 at 7:28 pm
As I said the other day, I believe the ‘deed of release’ does relate to the floating charge.
It wouldn’t survive the transfer of assets, but would still have been applicable in the CVA scenario (if there was any real debt attached to it, which D&P disputed).
===
Thanks BigGav, that makes sense to me.
BigGav says:
February 21, 2014 at 7:28 pm
“It wouldn’t survive the transfer of assets, but would still have been applicable in the CVA scenario”
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The Letter and Sale and Purchase Agreement (SPA) envisage the failure of a CVA. Clause 5 of the letter addresses this. The whole document in in the name of Sevco 5088.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/142103828/Letter-and-SPA
Not sure what the debenture refers to but campbellsmoney indicated that it acted like a floating charge. Whether such a floating charge would survive the failure of a CVA is beyond my ken. However as the possibility of an asset sale is envisaged in the SPA then would Duff & Phelps, having signed the document not be bound by this agreement. How the interjection of Sevco Scotland played its hand and what role any debenture may have had in solidifying CW’s claim is conjecture at this present time I think. Unless someone can piece together other parts of the jigsaw using logic?
arabest1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 2:15 pm
28 0 Rate This
Dundee United continue the feel good factor ….
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Some details of the deal with Lloyds emerging from the accounts – broadly speaking looks win-win imo as the level of bank debt was a substantial threat to the club
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/article/168/9177875/united-reveal-debt-repayment-plan?
Has there been any confirmation that Rangers have secured the £1.5m loan to provide working capital?
My assumption is that if there are 2 friendly shareholders willing to provide £1.5m to help the Club/Company address a cash flow problem, that the details would be worked out quickly and the monies made available.
Its now well into the end of the business week. If the loan is not yet in place – what are the chances that this time next week no loan will have been made available?
Exiled Celt says:
February 21, 2014 at 5:10 pm
“Bill Millar’s guy saying I told you so…”
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It was interesting to read through the Forbes article again. We have seen a lot of water pass under the bridge since it was written and Mr. Pritchetts analysis still holds up to scrutiny.
Moving on, what caught my eye was the previous dominance of the OF in the financial stakes. Over 90% of income to Scottish football had become focused around only two clubs. That is dramatic stuff and for me would explain why a lot of people would wish the return of the Ancien Regime. In some ways it was easy money for the other ten clubs since they had no expectation to seriously challenge the big boys. Things have changed now and I suspect some new perspectives are required.
Despite protestations to the contrary, I think Celtic will struggle to adjust to this new reality. Whilst Rangers might muster support with the promise of a glorious future, Celtic are left dislocated from their previous reality. There is more incentive for Rangers supporters to turn up to see some possible build of momentum than for Celtic fans to watch a predictable status quo. I had previously mused that the diddy teams might make up ground on Celtic in a few seasons and provide some competition However, it could happen more dramatically than that.
If Celtic supporters become disenchanted with a predictable title parade and they desert the stadium, what will this do to Celtic’s bank balance? Their business model was not designed for this scenario (recall that Fergus’ stadium rebuild was based on 50,000 season tickets). Celtic will have big overheads and a diminution of income in circumstances that are unprecedented and which might place them in a precarious position. The Celtic of old needed Rangers; where do the current Celtic go from here.
I don’t think its all doom and gloom. If Rangers can get their act together, which currently seems unlikely, then they could return to a rebalanced top league. A league where they will be competitive, though perhaps not immediately; a league where there could be genuine competition and excitement. For this to happen I think there would need to be a redistribution of income to a more equitable level. Having only two teams responsible for over 90% of the top leagues income is surely not sustainable in a meaningful way. Celtic will have to have a managed downsizing I suspect. This is surely preferable to the mismanaged downsizing that Rangers are failing to execute.
All this looks at a static situation. The future is dynamic and outlives all our predictions. How it will all pan out we await to see. If income can be more equitably distributed without harming Celtic too much we can retain some kind of European co-efficient. If Celtic can accomplish this (and it is a task of difficulty only trumped by that of Rangers) then we could have a competitive league that will draw fans back in and hopefully help the national team due to the necessity to develop home grown talent.
As Pritchett indicates, this was all predictable. It is still to some extent predictable. It may be that soon the real remit of TSFM will require to be fulfilled. The custodianship of the game. The Ancien Regime is in the past. This is a new order. Let us take advantage of the possibilities rather than be cowed by the challenges.
Just a reminder the UTT appeal by HMRC v Former RFC PLC & other Murray Co’s is due to begin Monday 24/2/14 (possibly until 21/3/14) in Edinburgh,George House
The listings are detailed here on pages 13-15 on the PDF:
http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/tribunals/tax-and-chancery-upper-tribunal-/hearings-register.pdf
These are the details of the case as outlined by Judge Colin Bishopp last July:
http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/TCC/2013/B6.pdf
paulonotini says:
February 21, 2014 at 8:28 pm
‘…Just a reminder the UTT appeal by HMRC v Former RFC PLC & other Murray Co’s is due to begin Monday 24/2/14 ….’
——
‘ Thank you, paulonotini. My diary is open at the page, bus pass and note-book and pen at the ready, Mrs C advised that I shall be away all working day. ( It’ll be just my luck if the Judge finds a reason to make Monday’s proceedings private!)
Anyone else hoping to attend?
john clarke says:
February 21, 2014 at 8:37 pm
What is the protocol JC? Can anyone attend and would I need to bring ID or anything? I’ve never been to a court before except when I didn’t pay my TV Licence 😳
jean7brodie says:
February 21, 2014 at 8:48 pm
‘.What is the protocol JC? Can anyone attend and would I need to bring ID or anything?…’
——–
I’ve not been past the reception desk in the George St premises of the Appeals Tribunal, but it won’t be any more formal than the Court of Session, probably a whole lot less formal ( like going into the library or city chambers).
Anyone can walk in off the street, and go through any security check there may be ( bags, coats and such like) and take a seat in the back rows, and just behave himself quietly. You can get up and go out quietly at any time, and come back in again, quietly.
You don’t need ID.
PS I should have added perhaps that there is likely to be nobody there but the judge and the clerk and the legal teams for each party to the proceedings. Maybe a journo or two, and me in my cheap suit. All very low key.
Long Time Lurker says:
February 21, 2014 at 8:00 pm
Has there been any confirmation that Rangers have secured the £1.5m loan to provide working capital?…….My assumption is that if there are 2 friendly shareholders willing to provide £1.5m to help the Club/Company address a cash flow problem, that the details would be worked out quickly and the monies made available.
……………………………………………
Suggest that if this was just a “loan” it could be agreed on fairly quickly in terms of mechanics, documentation etc, subject to a willingness on both sides. In terms of interest rate, Mr Wallace can easily demonstrate that this was the only source of funding available to address any issues of conflict of interest.
Likely to be the terms of the conversion into shares that causes logistic nightmares in terms of independent advice etc. And as we see from various sources there are reports that other shareholders are concerned that the terms of the conversion might be too much of a sweetheart deal, eg see the Sons of Struth video linked in an earlier post.
Suggest this loan will take much time to put in place and consequently run up significant professional fees relative to the funds raised.
john clarke says:
February 21, 2014 at 8:37 pm
“Anyone else hoping to attend?”
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I don’t think I can get along next week but may have an opportunity for a day or two’s attendance thereafter. I look forward to your court reports
the sage of g42 says:
February 21, 2014 at 9:03 pm
‘….Suggest this loan will take much time to put in place and consequently run up significant professional fees relative to the funds raised…’
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My own feeling is that there is such a great need for the £1.5M that there is no time for protracted discussion. It’s probably a significant crunch time,and the way it crunches will become clear fairly soon., and may involve a Whyte/King tie-up to confound the non-rangersmen spivs.
Johnclarke at 8.37pm
“Thank you, paulonotini. My diary is open at the page, bus pass and note-book and pen at the ready”
Good to hear John & no doubt get updates from you.
Not sure what the proceedings will be on the opening day.
Raman from STV tweeted lasted night that STV will be covering it.If I see any useful tweets from them I’ll pass them on to TSFM.
Should be an eventful few weeks.
blu says:
February 21, 2014 at 7:06 pm
My point about John Stevens being invited to write a guest blog on the land deals matter isn’t entirely in jest – let’s see if he’s prepared to have his assertions tested. I’m pretty certain that you wouldn’t be allowed to make the points you have here on TSFM on FTH. Whether you could be bothered engaging with him, I don’t know.
==========================================================
Firstly, I have no say or influence on who writes guest posts on here – that is purely up to TSFM which is as it should be.
I have clearly stated my views mainly on the Lennoxtown and Westthorn land issues and tried to provide evidence for having arrived at those views. There is nothing to stop pzj afaik responding to those views on here if he so chooses.
Having read his twitter feed and his posts on McMurdo’s Blog it is highly unlikely IMO that any constructive debate could be held with him as I don’t deal in fantasies and avoid obsessives as they usually end-up trapped in circular arguments and become reduced to sloganising which is a waste of everyone’s time.
As I say, if he replies to any of my posts I will take the same decision I do with every poster on here who responds to me and that is whether to reply or not and that usually depends on whether the post interests me.by providing new information or presenting a fresh perspective which challenges my previously established position.
Sometimes I’m just too busy to reply and other times I might miss a post but I have quite a high response rate as there are many interesting posters on here well capable of stretching my horizons and giving me food for tought and who occasionally lead to me changing my position on an issue.
Being challenged by people who know what they are talking about is one of the things which I value above all else on TSFM and is a great reminder of my own personal limitations and that there are always new things to learn.
Of course if others, like yourself, wish to debate with pzj feel free 🙄
paulonotini says:
February 21, 2014 at 9:17 pm
Johnclarke at 8.37pm
“Thank you, paulonotini. My diary is open at the page, bus pass and note-book and pen at the ready”
Good to hear John & no doubt get updates from you.
Not sure what the proceedings will be on the opening day.
Raman from STV tweeted lasted night that STV will be covering it.If I see any useful tweets from them I’ll pass them on to TSFM.
Should be an eventful few weeks.
=================================================================================Thanks Paulo
I cant trot it from Blackfriars to Edinburgh. So this ones Johns.
Hope John you find it as interesting as I did with James at the Rolls court on Monday.
Ecobhoy @ 9:24 I tried on the FTH site and comments are unsurprisingly ‘Still in moderation’.
john clarke says:
February 21, 2014 at 8:56 pm
jean7brodie says:
February 21, 2014 at 8:48 pm
‘.What is the protocol JC? Can anyone attend and would I need to bring ID or anything?…’
——–
I’ve not been past the reception desk in the George St premises of the Appeals Tribunal, but it won’t be any more formal than the Court of Session, probably a whole lot less formal ( like going into the library or city chambers).
Anyone can walk in off the street, and go through any security check there may be ( bags, coats and such like) and take a seat in the back rows, and just behave himself quietly. You can get up and go out quietly at any time, and come back in again, quietly.
You don’t need ID.
=========================================================================
Oh and don’t let your mobile go off like one of Phillips crew did. The judges frown quite scarily. Apart from that as John says airport style scan, and your in. Just ask where the court you want is. After all you paid your taxes you can watch what you want.
ianagain says:
February 21, 2014 at 9:57 pm
Thanks ianagain. What time which court?
Anyone know who the new shirt sponsor for the rangers are, As the Blackthorn deal runs out next week does it not?
Jean
FTC/19/2013 HMRC The former Rangers
Football Club Plc (now
RFC 2012 – in
liquidation)
28/01/2013 19 July 2013
Edinburgh Tribunal Centre,
George House, 126 George
Street, Edinburgh EH2 4HH
24 February to 21 March
Directions (in private)
Substantive
ianagain says:
February 21, 2014 at 10:12 pm
Thanks again ianagain.
Cluster One says:
February 21, 2014 at 10:11 pm
Anyone know who the new shirt sponsor for the rangers are, As the Blackthorn deal runs out next week does it not?
============================================
Yep and many amongst the RR fans have been asking the same question.
Jean
Have fun it really is an education in where the money goes.
Cluster One says:
February 21, 2014 at 10:11 pm
Anyone know who the new shirt sponsor for the rangers are, As the Blackthorn deal runs out next week does it not?
___________________________________________________________________________
Westthorn?
I’ve to be in Edinburgh on Tuesday 😉 how long will it run for ??
Brenda says:
February 21, 2014 at 10:27 pm
I’ve to be in Edinburgh on Tuesday 😉 how long will it run for ??
==========================================================
Weeks likely.
You going to join the gang?
jean7brodie says:
February 21, 2014 at 3:44 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 1:55 pm
____________________________________________
La Pasionaria, Dolores Ibárruri, is a passion of mine and her life story is fascinating.
Her use of Emiliano Zapata’s evocative phrase was extremely fitting during the struggle in Asturias and indeed during any struggle.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you like struggle buy a season ticket at East Stirlingshire. If you like a different type of struggle in the same vein as Dolores then (if you haven’t already) try “Live Working or Die Fighting” by Paul Mason.
FTC/19/2013 HMRC The former Rangers
Football Club Plc (now
RFC 2012 – in
liquidation)
28/01/2013 19 July 2013
Edinburgh Tribunal Centre,
George House, 126 George
Street, Edinburgh EH2 4HH
24 February to 21 March
Directions (in private)
Substantive
———————————————————————————————–
So so far
For the Court: HMRC v RFC in liquidation interesting enough.
For the Bampots:
John Clarke
Jean Brodie
Brenda
Go for it folks.
Anyone remember their Pitmans (James was a whiz at the shorthand)?
ianagain
Might just do that 😆 😆 could be interesting, pink carnations or red guys
Naw you just say TSFM I presume
john clarke says:
February 21, 2014 at 9:01 pm
13
0
Rate This
PS I should have added perhaps that there is likely to be nobody there but the judge and the clerk and the legal teams for each party to the proceedings. Maybe a journo or two, and me in my cheap suit. All very low key.
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Avid reader but don’t post a lot but great work from all your visits to court, John Clark. Remember this…….
In any film I have ever seen…………The guy in the cheap suit gets the big scoop……Never give up John………………….Darkmoon
ecobhoy says:
February 21, 2014 at 4:32 pm
I have never come across that observation of Karl Rove previously – nice one ❗
I actually had sat back and basically ignored all the Land Deal allegations until January when I saw the Fth post on Lennoxtown and as I have some long-term connections with the village it didn’t quite fit with half-remembered recollections.
I did a quick google recce and didn’t actually find anything that provided satisfactory answers to the questions raised in my mind so I decided to check things out for myself. As I peeled back the layers of the land claims I realised just how truth had been distorted and I also formed the opinion that a guiding PR hand had become involved and breathed fresh life into what had become a tired and largely ignored Bear campaign.
I now firmly believe that campaign was launched to delivered a platform to attack Celtic and also to deflect the Bears from their own problems.
However my modus operandi is to attempt to establish the truth as far as is possible based on irrefutable facts and to put it out there and see what reaction and info flow-back and whether my previously held position requires alteration.
I am struggling to think of one ‘fact’ peddled by the Bear Land ‘Experts’ that is true or hasn’t been twisted beyond any recognition from its original meaning. In my experience this either requires the utmost stupidity or a very skilled and highly orchestrated campaign.
The jury is still out on that but it may well end-up a mixture of both 😉
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I have enjoyed your historical commentary of the East End and the various uses of the land that has taken place there but as I said way back. To take on the FTH was like bayoneting a straw man.
The ravings of that clearly anti Celtic site were risible and not worth responding to IMHO. If Celtic felt there was any damage being done I suspect they would have taken the relevant legal action.
However, you did and wiped the floor with them which although it wasn’t really necessary you ploughed on for a 9-0 win.
darkmoon says:
John Clarke
February 21, 2014 at 10:46 pm
I should have added perhaps that there is likely to be nobody there but the judge and the clerk and the legal teams for each party to the proceedings. Maybe a journo or two, and me in my cheap suit. All very low key.
=============================
Which is what its like most of the time. Then James and I wandered into the Charlotte revelations out of the blue.
You never know.
neepheid says:
February 21, 2014 at 7:12 pm
Danish Pastry says:
February 21, 2014 at 6:59 pm
Any thoughts on the deed of release?
======================
My thoughts are that there must have been some charge over the RFC assets, which only Whyte could release. It seems that Green needed the release to be signed, otherwise matters couldn’t progress. All I can come up with is Whyte’s floating charge, but I had understood from comments on here that his floating charge couldn’t survive the transfer of the assets anyway? I’m not qualified to express an opinion on that, so expert opinion welcome.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I’m not an expert but Deeds of Release, Deeds of Novation are only used to make legal agreements between parties legal as no consideration needs to pass.
Why are these businessmen supposedly operating at “arms length” passing the benefit of contracts/agreements with commercial value between themselves for nothing?