Podcast Episode 1

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Podcast Episode 1

SFM PodcastOur First podcast features a general discussion involving our own Big Pink and Auldheid.
Since it is the first podcast there is no particular agenda save for a general chat about TSFM, the state of Scottish Football, and some few reminiscences. The chat covers a lot of ground, but establishes the ethos of the blog pretty well.

Topics discussed include FPP, Leadership, Interdependence, Scotland’s self-regard, Coaching and Nurturing of Talent, Redistribution of Income, Rangers, Forgiveness, domestic strife πŸ™‚

The interview was conducted a couple of days before the latest round of Armageddon, when Big Pink and Auldheid felt safe and well πŸ™‚

The link below is to the iTunes store page for ourΒ Podcasts.Β  If you go there, you can subscribe to the podcast (on your PC or iPhone) and new episodes will automatically be sent to you.

Since we have just been approved for a spot on iTunes, the iTunes search side of things may not work properly for a day or so.

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About the author

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Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,849 Comments so far

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Paulmac2Posted on11:42 pm - Feb 10, 2014


Greenock Jack says:
February 10, 2014 at 10:45 am

Re. Why is there not more participation from Rangers supporters?
Let’s not dance around the issue. The main reason that there aren’t many Rangers supporters who come on here or last very long is that the general tone of the blog is anti-Rangers.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
There has been a lot of anger expressed over the last 2-3 years from fans of all clubs intially towards the behaviour of the Govan club who had committed the industrial levels of dishonesty….that has over time slowly but surely been redirected at the SFA…which may have on occasions appeared to be what you have described as ‘anti-rangers’…nothing could be further from the truth…

Football fans the world over are very similar in their protective nature of their club….and that is by and large part of the issue with fans from the Govan club….lets not dance around the issue…the superiority attitude they had become accustomed to has made their participation on mixed blogs such as this one…almost impossible….after all…the behaviour of the likes of Charles Green has simply tuned into this part of the mindset..playing the victim card…flying kites of nonsense and pushing the idea with falsehoods that Scottish football and its clubs had somehow decided to take fly kicks whilst spitefully and unfairly punishing the Govan club…creating a siege mentality…a resistance to debating the truth with others sensibly…sadly…a truth that some fans have struggled to accept…not my club..no way…it’s just hatred from people who are anti-rangers…is the cry Charlie has helped foster…

The human nature of football fans is by and large to only want to hear good news stories about their club…this web site does not provide that in the way they want to hear it…the SMSM does were the Govan club is concerned…when any of the usual media outlets strays off the good news path…they are soon jumped on…

Yes there maybe some on here who have the odd dig…but the mods I believe do a fair job in keeping this blog even handed…your opinion has always been given fair exposure…as I am sure your fellow fans would have if they contributed…

Truth…facts…and debate do not make us anti anything….instead it is the weapon of choice for those who do not want to participate in discussing the truth or facts.

C’mon up yer game Greenock!

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davythelotionPosted on11:47 pm - Feb 10, 2014


Auldheid says:
February 10, 2014 at 11:32 pm
%%%%%%%
To be fair, that particular malfeasance was the proud product of SDM, without, it must be said, the knowledge of Campbell Ogilvie. The unpaidness was only uncovered when the honourable CW swapped his Β£1 for Ibrox, Murray Park and all the intangibles associated with the now liquidating Rangers football club. Imagine his chagrin when he discovered that the previous management had also left an invoice for Β£6m payable to ticketus! Rubbing salt in the wound of early European exits! Still, Campbell had moved on, putting clear, blue water between himself and RFC(IL).
the taxpayer has been used like a shipyard privvy after a bad curry night. The guilty sleep soundly.

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John ClarkPosted on11:57 pm - Feb 10, 2014


davythelotion says:
February 10, 2014 at 11:47 pm
‘….The guilty sleep soundly.’
————-
Perhaps not, if a wee demand from HMRC for tax in the sum of .say, the price of a good night out features in their dreams, as 24th February draws ever nearer.

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TSFMPosted on12:03 am - Feb 11, 2014


Mac Tomas says:

February 10, 2014 at 11:17 pm

β€œApples & pears Mac”

Only the fans of other clubs who have experienced insolvency can comprehend fully what the Govan people are going through, but even from these groups I don’t get a feeling that there is a groundswell of sympathy.
___________________________________________________________________________

The difference in the Hearts/RFC and Pars/RFC can be explained in one word – or one intialism – MSM.

Hearts and Dunfermline (the clubs and fans) were not portrayed as innocent victims of a megalomaniacal Motherwell Born Billionaire. Rangers were. That might explain the humility amongst Jambos and Pars. Rangers fans on the other hand are fed a daily diet that “it’s Whyte’s fault”.

In truth I think, the subliminal message being put across is “it’s not Murray’s fault!”, but the end result is the same.

Thusly, little sympathy for the Bears, which understandably leads to an even more entrenched bunker mentality.

One of these days, the pattern (which shows that only the WoS MSM and Rangers fans subscribe to this absurd notion), will be recognised and daylight will penetrate. I think that day will come – but I’m an optimist πŸ™‚

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ekt1m

ekt1mPosted on12:09 am - Feb 11, 2014


Davythe Lotion Says at 11.11pm. I would point you to the link to the earlier post about BFS if i could. Their reputation as a ruthless financial predator precedes them. Then again you may be entirely correct that TU’s previous bath in the cesspool has had them running for the hills. But i can’t see any other vehicle for getting finance in their coffers, as all other doors to cash have apparently been slammed shut. Notwithstanding a “sugar daddy” coming over the hill, cavalry style.

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sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolisPosted on3:33 am - Feb 11, 2014


Auldheid says: February 10, 2014 at 11:32 pm

The cost to the public purse of the SFA’s mis-governance has still to be highlighted , but you can start at Β£2.8M for the wee tax case and count from there.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Auldheid

Lest we forget, the total of Β£2.4 M was only the amount of tax, interest and penalty up to the date of HMRC’s acceptance of a “contract settlement” for the duties lost to the exchequer resulting from the Discounted Option Scheme in respect of those 2 players.

By the date of the liquidation statutory “late payment interest under Section 86 Taxes Management Act 1970 of about an additional Β£1.8M had accrued too.

Can’t find anything on the HMRC website to establish if they keep a record of the number of compliance check enquiries that are settled by “contract settlement” and assessment that result in the immediate bankruptcy / insolvency / liquidation of those found to be “at it” but I’m pretty sure it’s not uncommon.

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coatbrigbhoyPosted on3:37 am - Feb 11, 2014


RyanGosling says:
February 10, 2014 at 10:17 pm

“And further, I get frustrated with Rangers fans, and come to think of it fans of other clubs on here in equal measure, ridiculing match performances from Rangers consistently. Currently a League 1 (correct?!) side, top of the league by a mile, and yet its not good enough. Cause we’re not just a League 1 side, we’re Rangers, and it is that attitude from both friend and foe which has helped to encourage the powers that be to spend their way into the trouble we’re in now. Again. ”

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Coatbridgebhoy
Maybe you should read Ryan’s post again – even the bit you copied above – before jumping in with both feet, particularly in such an aggressive and disrespectful manner.
TSFM

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upthehoopsPosted on6:23 am - Feb 11, 2014


Slightly O.T, but definitely relevant to the blog. Someone pointed out to me fairly recently that five people named in the BBC programme as receiving EBT’s are in the employ of the BBC from time to time. So that’s people who gained from a tax avoidance scheme that has still not been concluded in court, getting paid from a taxpayer funded organisation.

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slimshady61Posted on7:33 am - Feb 11, 2014


upthehoops says:
February 10, 2014 at 7:49 pm
—————————————
A key worry for me is whether HMRC will actually have the gumption to issue a WUO. That is not paranoia to think that. They were issuing them to Hearts like confetti while the old Rangers stuck two fingers up at them for months.
————————-
UTH, the problem is that the outlook from HMRC’s office at Haymarket Yards in Edinburgh is markedly different from that in Portcullis House, Glasgow.

Discuss

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TaysiderPosted on9:21 am - Feb 11, 2014


One factor in this saga that has made reconciliation far more difficult has been the type of leadership that has been demonstrated to date.

From the Ibrox club there has been a playing to the gallery, a suggestion that they have had a kicking when they were down, at odds with any rational analysis of how their leadership had led to their own demise.

Then you have the response of the football authorities. Quislings all of them. Quite extraordinary in how craven and cowardly they have been. Who would have thought that they (with as has been commented on here, the support of most Scottish clubs) would be so keen to treat one club that went into liquidation in a different way to any club that had previously gambled recklessly and gone bust as a result.

All allowed to do so by a supine, spineless MSM so used to a diet of succulent lamb that their critical faculties had atrophied and died.

I know, I know, it’s all been said before. But it makes you wonder, what qualities make someone destined for the top these days? Do they have to “manage upwards” the right way? Is being gutless and craven the way to the top and then an ego that runs riot and brooks no internal dissent?

Once you lose trust, once you have convincing evidence that integrity is subordinate to other interests (are Sky really wanting “OF” derbies back asap and are they the masters?) then what should be neurotic conspiracy theories become all too credible. A pitch that looks in pretty poor condition has been chosen as the venue for Semi Finals of the Scottish Cup on two consecutive days, possibly giving one team a home advantage. Fair, honest leadership? It’s bad enough that normally a Glasgow venue is selected as neutral but this is just taking the proverbial.

Sorry a bit of a rant but in essence when the leadership has singly and utterly failed it is extraordinarily difficult to get any momentum for reconciliation and a new beginning. That requires trust and leaders you respect. Don’t think we have a Nelson Mandela waiting in the wings!

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BrendaPosted on9:22 am - Feb 11, 2014


When are the sevco superstars due to be paid ? Middle of the month ? And are the vat payments etc outstanding or just due? The silence from ibrox re PMG’s simple questions is absolutely deafening πŸ˜† but not to worry the audited accounts will clear everything up!! Won’t they πŸ˜‰

I am now being taxed on my Child Benefit ???????? HMRC get the finger out, you don’t give us normal hardworking folk extra time to pay!!!!! Demand should be issued as soon as the due date has passed πŸ˜₯ no exceptions or has someone had a word ……… Again πŸ˜•

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ecobhoyPosted on9:36 am - Feb 11, 2014


slimshady61 says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:33 am
upthehoops says:
February 10, 2014 at 7:49 pm
β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”
A key worry for me is whether HMRC will actually have the gumption to issue a WUO. That is not paranoia to think that. They were issuing them to Hearts like confetti while the old Rangers stuck two fingers up at them for months.
β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”-
UTH, the problem is that the outlook from HMRC’s office at Haymarket Yards in Edinburgh is markedly different from that in Portcullis House, Glasgow.

Discuss
======================================================
Without access to the very top management thinking in both offices I think that it is impossible to have an informed discussion on supposed differences.

Merely as speculation I would think that both offices have very clear guidelines to follow so I would seriously doubt that there would be any marked differences in how they handle similar cases. It must be remembered that one of the most important factors when you land in HMRC’s red book is the attitude and actions taken by the defaulter. Also, in HMRC terms Rangers is a new legal entity and the ‘history’ attached to it by the Revenue starts in May 2012.

However in view of the ‘old’ history and the continuing legal action flowing from it I have no doubt that any action to be taken against the current incumbents of Ibrox will require to be sanctioned at the highest levels of HMRC nationally. That may cause a little delay but I have no doubt that the mandarins in charge don’t want another inept fiasco as happened with CW but are mindful of the intense public interest in events.

One thing for sure is that I doubt there will be any ‘leaks’ such as those ascribed by some to RTC.

I suppose my post shows it’s possible to ‘discuss’ a topic without having a clue what has been decided by HMRC πŸ™„

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borussiabeefburgPosted on9:43 am - Feb 11, 2014


In Coatbridge on Saturday, pre match in Owens, discussion with ‘Vers fans was that the winners of the Rovers/Warriors tie were certain to draw the Govan side in the next round. And so it turned out.

Later, back in home town pubs, previously muted barstool Ibrox pundits could hardly contain their delight at Celtic’s exit, and by Sunday the whole mortification of arrogance was tumbling from their lips as they took Elbow’s words as fact that their chosen side was as good as (better than) any in the top league.

Nice to read some more contrite views here from individual supporters of the blue part of Glasgow, but get more than one of them in a group and the same old triumphalism dominates: which is why they have been continually taken for a ride by businessmen.

But the SFA leadership should still be our target. Clearly, their mismanagement of the Ibrox state of affairs has been well documented, but it is likely to cause huge controversy when the likely north and east semi final Cup qualifiers (with respect to Stranraer, Dumbarton and Albion Rovers) have to trudge down to Ibrox on two consecutive days near the beginning of April for early kick offs which, in at least one of the ties, one club is likely to have already been handed a massive assistance.

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SmugasPosted on9:47 am - Feb 11, 2014


Regarding Edinburgh and Glasgow branches of HMRC.

Sorry, I don’t understand the distinction? PAYE and VAT?

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iceman63Posted on9:48 am - Feb 11, 2014


I think the reason for non-participation of Rangers fans here is very understandable.

Firstly the situation the club finds itself in:
A liquidation, a takeover by spivs, a seemingly never ending sequence of grim news.
Those who are not ranting and reacting with anger, are mostly too depressed to engage in the situation at all. The decent bears – of whom there are myriad, have fallen silent as they realise the situation has gone beyond desperate.
We largely hear the defiance – loudly shouted, and do not hear the silence of despair.

Were I a Rangers fan, I suspect my interest in the whole sorry saga would have dissipated years ago – and I would be finding other pursuits.

Secondly, as Ryan has pointed out,The gloating, delight , and general air of celebration don’t really encourage dialogue either – though in truth such feelings are, from my perspective anyway, hearfelt and justified.

Finally, the pre existing relationship between Rangers fans and the rest of Scottish football fans – not just Celtic – pre this crisis was not exactly comradely – no-one likes us, we don’t care – is hardly the stuff of conciliation and compromise.

So three reasons for non participation that I can see:

1. Depression
2. The schadenfreude of the rest of Scottish football fans
3. The nature of the pre existing relationship.

Very difficult for even the most open and fair-minded of blogs to engage in those circumstances.

Given the above, I find the persistence and participation of any Rangers fans here, admirable and impressive.

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on9:58 am - Feb 11, 2014


Hi everyone,

Just back from a weekend at the in-laws near Blackpool so had a wee bit catching up to do. Seems the podcast was a great success, looking forward to hearing what was said later this morning, if it works on my, suddenly, dodgy laptop πŸ˜₯

Seems that most of the recent posts have been concerned with the question; why are there so few TRFC supporters posting here? It’s always been said that the blog would benefit from input from their supporters, and there’s no argument against that really. Clearly GJ and RG don’t want to read, any more than we do, posts from the more bigoted section of their support, nor any that just deride what’s said by others while offering no coherent argument against said posts, but, sadly, with a very few exceptions, these are the only form of TRFC posters that have posted here, plus, of course, our friendly trolls. I think the main reason there are only a couple of ‘Rangers’ posters on here is that the more sensible bears (not saying GJ and RG aren’t in that category) are aware that very little exists by way of a counter argument to what our more informed posters write, and, without anything worthwhile to say in their club’s defence, prefer not to get involved. I’d like to think, though, that some do read what is written and take something from it.

GJ and RG are to be applauded for their continued participation and both seem aware that their club, and supporters, are not the innocents portrayed by the SMSM. I get the impression both would like to build bridges and find their club welcomed into the Scottish football family, but are frustrated by the actions of their club and the bulk of it’s support. The over-friendly relationship they have with both the SFA/SPFL and the SMSM only adds to the obstacles to any bridge building.

I know only too well how difficult it is to write on blogs like this about your club when it’s in financial turmoil, and with little knowledge of the goings on at Tynecastle, and nothing to say that could excuse the actions of my club (the club, not just the owner), I preferred to reserve any comments until I had something I felt worthwhile to add. I think the actions of my club, or rather the administrators, and the way the support has knuckled down, accepted the criticism and blame, and got on with saving the club, has created an environment that I, and others, can lift our heads above the parapet and join the debate. I’m sure, if things had rolled out similarly at Ibrox, many more TRFC supporters would feel happy to debate here. We all know that didn’t happen, and that hasn’t changed.

I am not surprised so few TRFC supporters post on here, and it has nothing to do with the attitude of the regular bloggers. It is because they have nothing constructive to say, and, being sensible, hold their counsel, in the hope, that one day, they will have something positive to say about their club. I think, though, that that day will only arrive if a sugar daddy appears, and then it will be the old WATP attitude and the crowing that they are well on their way to their rightful place.

In the meantime, when a club spends millions in a thousands league, they can expect ridicule from the word go. They will get it whether they win games 2-1 or 10-0. Wasn’t it Queen of the South who ran away with the same division last season, with a wage bill one twentieth of that of TRFC? They were admired for that. Nobody admires a team that buys a league title, the jokes are bound to follow, no matter who they are, nor what their history is.

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TaysiderPosted on10:03 am - Feb 11, 2014


iceman63 says:
February 11, 2014 at 9:48 am

Perceptive post. I’d just add to that, I think what you say may explain why (so far as I’m aware) there is no bear dominated equivalent of TSFM? I’ve often wondered about this, Does the lack of a forum where you see a reasonably fact based, sober analysis from TRFC fans of where they are, why they are there and what they need to do to see the club progress reflect on an absence of such fans in their support? Or is it the case that those who would be capable of such a debate are too demoralised and possibly feeling marginalised by the more shrill elements in their support, to feel comfortable discussing these issues?

Genuinely don’t know the answer. Has anyone seen a TRFC dominated forum which they thought would welcome non bears input just as TSFM is attempting to do here?

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scottc

scottcPosted on10:18 am - Feb 11, 2014


We largely hear the defiance – loudly shouted, and do not hear the silence of despair.

Very poetic Iceman and I wholeheartedly agree with your reasoning regarding hte non-participation of TRFC fans

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jockybhoyPosted on10:36 am - Feb 11, 2014


With regard to Rangers supporters on here – I also feel there is almost a feeding frenzy of activiity when one does arrive. Distiguished by their rarity it seems everyone is queuing up to ask them direct questions which would probably feel intimidating and almost like a witch-hunt. Almost like a rare bird blown off course to the UK gets hundreds of “twitchers” surrounding it with cameras…

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wottpiPosted on10:52 am - Feb 11, 2014


jockybhoy says:
February 11, 2014 at 10:36 am

A fair point but like the twitchers if you keep your distance, move slowly and engage in the proper manner then everybody can get something from the experience.

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on11:09 am - Feb 11, 2014


Barcabhoy says:
Anti Rangers sentiment
———————————————————————————————————————————————–
Brilliant summing up of the goings on within Scottish football.

I personally will always feel aggrieved that the product I have paid to watch with my boys since the 80,s seems to have been knowingly flawed/dishonest/corrupt. To thinks as a fan I may have been deprived of celebrating cup finals, league games and league title victories with my boys because of cheating by one team aided and abetted by the SFA sickens me. This gut feeling will stay with me until it is proved that there was no cheating involved. I will IMO never get the truth from a press (corrupt bought and paid for by SDM) or a dishonest SFA whom are run by a major conflicted individual. Only here and similar other forums are asking for the answers to help save our game, and only here have I got a voice and I am thankful for that. All fans have to know what exactly went on in our sport as it is our right as we pay the money and support our teams and all we ask for is a level sporting playing field. We cannot give this pursuit of truth up and if fans from Govan club do not want to help find the truth or participate in any reasonable forums or blogs then what does that tell us. The childish approach from then as in “everyone hate us we dont care” attitude does not help. My approach is “Everyone hates being cheated and we ALL do care”
We just want the truth. We just want our game to be played without fear or favour of one team. We may lose a few friends in this pursuit but the memories of what victories I could have celebrated with my boys and fellow fans still haunt me. I am sure other fans will relate to similar memories.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on11:15 am - Feb 11, 2014


50. wottpi says:
February 11, 2014 at 10:52 am

A fair point but like the twitchers if you keep your distance, move slowly and engage in the proper manner then everybody can get something from the experience.
——————————————————————————————————————————————–

What, exactly, is in it for the bird?

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scottc

scottcPosted on11:33 am - Feb 11, 2014


Barry Ferguson β€˜made deadline day swoop for Law’

FORMER Scotland captain and Blackpool caretaker manager Barry Ferguson made a last-minute transfer bid for Rangers’ Nicky Law last month.

Ferguson made a Β£50,000 bid for the midfielder as the window closed, in an attempt to force the hand of the cash-strapped Gers.

The offer for the 25-year-old was rejected as β€œderisory” by Rangers CEO Graham Wallace. (Sun)

source: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/rumour-mill-joe-ledley-rangers-aberdeen-1-3301706

Interesting that it was allegedly ‘one of their own’ that made the play for Ranger’s Nicky Law

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scottc

scottcPosted on11:44 am - Feb 11, 2014


coatbrigbhoy says:
February 11, 2014 at 11:29 am
0 0 Rate This

coatbrigbhoy says:
February 11, 2014 at 3:37 am

RyanGosling says:
February 10, 2014 at 10:17 pm

β€œAnd further, I get frustrated with Rangers fans, and come to think of it fans of other clubs on here in equal measure, ridiculing match performances from Rangers consistently. Currently a League 1 (correct?!) side, top of the league by a mile, and yet its not good enough. Cause we’re not just a League 1 side, we’re Rangers, and it is that attitude from both friend and foe which has helped to encourage the powers that be to spend their way into the trouble we’re in now. Again. ”

I actually read Ryan’s post the other way. Not that HE was saying the ’cause we’re not just a League 1 side, we’re Rangers’ bit, but that that was the attitude being displayed by a large part of the support and it was that which was leading the board to spend, spend, spend, rather than to tell their support that they must live within their means. Essentially,the TRFC board have been in fear of the support for the best part of two years.

The change going to have to happen now, though, as sure as night follows day.

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Danish PastryPosted on11:49 am - Feb 11, 2014


RyanGosling on February 10, 2014 at 10:17 pm
77 4 Rate This
———-

I really enjoyed reading your post Ryan.

Yes, why not 5-6 years and invest β€”even if it is out of necessity β€” in Scots lads.

I see football clubs as having a huge social responsibility. What made me desperately sad about the Souness era was that it channelled resources away from grass roots and threw it at the mercenaries you mention.

Can’t see much change until the mentality which has fuelled the excess since Souness, changes. Smith and McCoist are not the future. In fact, I doubt anyone connected to the past 30 years of waste has anything to offer.

Yes, what an opportunity was lost. Thanks mostly to the authorities who’ve messed up big time. Strange they could not see that a one-year break with no Ibrox could have been a sensible thing. Instead, they let Green and co run riot.

Someone drew the comparison the other day between Leeds United, who are in a state of constant turmoil, and the current Ibrox club. Imagine if we are still discussing these things in 4-5 years time? It is a real possibility.

I’ve always been for the Rangers of Glasgow type of newco. It might still happen. Probably have a more enlightened type of supporter too.

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ZilchPosted on12:05 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Rangers / Sevco have come to represent (to me at least) all that is wrong in Scottish Football.

They had a tradition of being socially exclusive which, admittedly, diminished under SDM, but which has become a renewed feature of the Sevco routine – WATP, who are these people, the dog whistling etc. Is this an overstatement? I can’t be sure, but I fear not.

The original incarnation engaged in a deliberate and concealed strategy to defraud the nation of social taxes in order to gain an illicit sporting advantage – most people would call it cheating. Whilst other clubs spent more money than they could afford, only Rangers engaged in this level of cheating.

The original incarnation appear to have operated with a cabal in the BoS to undermine other clubs to the benefit of Rangers, including applying pressure to sell players etc. No other club appears to have benefited from this type of underhand, unsporting activity.

Both incarnations appear to have benefitted from irregular support from CO at the SFA, a man who directly benefitted from EBT payments from the original incarnation. I regard this as a Rangers-financed corruption of the governing body. I think many on here would agree.

So to me, Rangers / Sevco, as clubs / institutions represent social exclusion and corruption of sporting integrity.

None of this is the fault of individual Rangers / Sevco supporters.

However, I find myself struggling to come to terms with those who maintain their vocal allegiance to this organisation. I say this as someone with both friends and family who continue to support the club.

Growing up, I never understood how these very decent people could support a club that would not let me play for them because of the community I was born into.

For a period this became much less of an issue, but I now find myself increasingly concerned by the resurgence of the CG and AMcC endorsed WATP stance.

On the cheating front, I believe there is still a strong sense of denial about the truth of what happened that has been fostered and encouraged by both the club itself, the SMSM and the actions of the Scottish football authorities e.g. the Nimmo-smith decision. My hope is that the UTT will conclusively find against the SDM operation and that there will be significantly less room to hide the appalling abuse of fair play that the original club engaged in. Perhaps this will convince more of the decent Rangers fans that the previous entity was not worthy of their support and allow them to say as much.

One of the great ironies, of course, is that the Rangers fans themselves have been led astray time and again by their own club and the SMSM cheerleaders. It now looks increasingly likely that their club faces financial bankruptcy that matches the moral bankruptcy described above. Perhaps if there is an imminent administration event that will provide renewed focus for current fans to demand a better future?

If there is to be a reconciliation of any sorts, then I strongly feel that these issues have to be addressed in a manner that allows either this or the next incarnation of Rangers / Sevco / ? to ditch the baggage of the past and emerge with a clearly stated and properly implemented policy of social inclusion and adherence to the norms of sporting integrity, including financial fair play.

I believe this is possible, but would come at the cost of losing a significant fraction of their current support for whom the Rangers identity is too closely bound to other forms of community identity that require expression of superiority and domination and cannot accept the realities of a level playing field.

Does this make me “a Rangers hater”?

In the eyes of some almost certainly. So be it. Frankly I think Scottish football would be better off without those who feel that way.

In reality I am saying that there is a potential future for a team playing in blue at Ibrox that could be acceptable to the rest of Scottish Football – it would, however, have to be a clearly separate entity, and specifically NOT a continuation of the previous club and the worst of its traditions.

Sadly I don’t expect this to happen.

If the current incarnation manages to limp along or a new incarnation emerges with the same baggage, I expect many will continue to regard them as an illegitimate, pariah club and the stalemate will continue – to the vast detriment of the sport as a whole.

As many others have now said, I no longer discuss football with Rangers-supporting friends. The silence is deafening. The dialogue on TSFM pretty much reflects that gulf between fans. TSFM provides a (largely) respectful environment to discuss these issues, but the reality of the situation, the massive and in some respects continuing wrongdoing by a single club, inevitably (IMO) means it will be a cold house for fans of that club (without any excuse for personal disrespect).

I believe that Scottish Football requires root and branch reconstruction starting with the removal from office of the likes of CO and co who have done so much to damage the game through their corruption. A renewed SFA and league structure, free from the corrupt influence of the previous regime, would be able to deal with current sheanigans at Ibrox (and elsewhere) by simply applying the rules of the sport as they are written down – without fear or favour.

This is not a witch hunt, but it is a struggle for sporting and social equality. There can be no going back to the way it was.

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MickleenPosted on12:33 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Brenda says:

February 11, 2014 at 9:22 am
When are the sevco superstars due to be paid ? Middle of the month ? And are the vat payments etc outstanding or just due?
================================================================================
VAT due tomorrow Brenda (three working days from last date for submission of return). IF the return was submitted on time and there’s no money to cover it then I wonder if Wallace can stay beyond tomorrow as he will know (and it will be demonstrable that he knew on this date if/when the company goes down the pan) that the Company is trading insolvent.

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wottpiPosted on12:43 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:
February 11, 2014 at 11:15 am

The bird gets to show off its ‘beautiful plummage’ πŸ˜‰

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on12:47 pm - Feb 11, 2014


There’s a wee discussion going on over on the jamboskickback site over the thought that any ‘voluntary’ administration might be delayed because of the possibility CW would then lodge an arrestment with regards to his claim that could delay coming out of administration for years. I suppose that whether or not Whyte would do this, the very thought could cause much consternation amongst those pacing the carpets at Ibrox as it would likely scupper any plans to transfer the ownership of the heritable property. This, of course, presupposes that TRFC are in as much trouble as we all suspect.

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JimBhoyPosted on12:59 pm - Feb 11, 2014


@Brenda
I am now being taxed on my Child Benefit ???????? HMRC get the finger out, you don’t give us normal hardworking folk extra time to pay!!!!!
============================================================================
Working people tax’d at source who do NOT wish to give up their FULL child benefit (how dare they) also need to provide a tax return so HMRC can work out what the family need to pay in tax (each year) because they continue to receive child benefit. Totally unworkable system…It will cost 10 x more to administer and get back monies than it will ever have in benefit to HMRC… Anything for simple tax laws and no crazy stealth taxes..

The majority pay, whilst the minority play..

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coineanachantaighePosted on1:01 pm - Feb 11, 2014


23. wottpi says:
February 10, 2014 at 11:01 pm
One thing many of us on here got wrong was the fans reaction and the amazing turn outs at Ibrox so far. Do you get the feeling the current crowd level is sustainable if prices go up but the performances are similar and next year the results don’t come?
=================================
I believe a big factor in that – at first anyway – was a GIRUY attitude from many of their fans, helped by Green’s nonsense, which led to many getting behind the team just to show everyone. No doubt there were some who geunuinely were only about backing the team and many of the inititial GIRUY’ers have kind of bought into the “journey” propaganda but they have had a team that’s so far won its leagues comfortably regardless of the style. And many have believed and a good number still believe it will be all right in the not too distant future – 2 years maybe 3 at most.
That has not been seriously challenged yet but if the team has to be seriously cut back and progress begins to stutter I think we could very well see a falling away of support: especially if they get the the top league and don’t within a year or two establish themselves as at least the 2nd best club.

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Shooperb

ShooperbPosted on1:03 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Interesting discussion about the equivalent of a Rangers TSFM and why one doesn’t exist. I think I’ve made this point before, but the majority of posts on here point to the content and the language of the Rangers forums, and use this as evidence that the ‘Good Ranger’ doesn’t exist.

What they fail to acknowledge is that what has provoked the language is usually a response to someone on the forum, one of their own, who has made a perfectly reasonable point, but immediately gets labelled (at best) a tim-poster for their efforts. It’s the loudest voices on the Rangers forums that get heard unfortunately, and generally these are the most rabid ones.

I suppose the best hope is that someone from the Rangers Standard, seemingly the least rabid of the websites, decides that, actually, they’re fed up with Chris Graham consistently backing the wrong horse, and moves to set up their own blog, where there is a hand on the tiller to guide debate.

Some people on here see it as a freedom of speech issue if they can’t say what they want. Personally, I welcome the fact that there is someone overseeing it and not allowing the blog to consistently head up blind alleys, otherwise it just becomes the Record website comments page, and if I wanted to read that, then I’d go to the original.

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paulsatimPosted on1:06 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Allyjambo says:
February 11, 2014 at 12:47 pm

So if Admin was delayed for a few years and they managed to keep playing, would they start each season with a points deduction, and would this increase year on year? πŸ˜†

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m.c.f.c.Posted on1:07 pm - Feb 11, 2014


I hate to spoil anyone’s fun, but I’d be amazed if things are so bad at Ibrox that they’ll fall into chaotic Admin in the next week or so.

If I was Laxey, R&M or Damille I’d want to get to the end of the season without Admin, without SFA involvement, with a couple of cups in hand (maybe), with CEO and Chairman intact and without HMRC on my back.. I’d be prepared to stump up a couple of mill to see this happen, to be repaid from the first of the ST money – on commensurate terms you understand. Then the necessary can be done at leisure over the summer – when everyone is engrossed in the World Cup.(c) MCFC Corporate Strategy Consultants Inc.

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SmugasPosted on1:12 pm - Feb 11, 2014


AJ

That’s my understanding too, albeit in very general terms. There was some debate here the other day on the definition of a controlled administration (I even saw my name mentioned!). I now define that as the sevco board entering an administration phase with a view to breaking existing contracts (presumably to save money*), with a pre-determined outcome in mind. Crucially both the major creditor and other influential creditors – ie. the players, will be aware of this plan and thus generally supportive throughout the process. I don’t know enough about such matters to make comment on how the 50% creditor rule would pan out.

Taking a sideways step, we know the club have no cash since all the analysis showed that since day 1. It is not a massive stretch of the imagination to assume that elements detrimental to any administration could work that out too. It is currently sevco’s soft underbelly and one would assume that, to name but two, both King and Whyte albeit with very different goals, can see that.

What we have therefore is a bizarre mexican standoff. Bizarre in that it was entirely forecastable. Bizarre in that whilst sevco are damned if they do and damned if they don’t, the one thing all the parties know is that the one thing that can’t be allowed to happen is for them to be, well, damned outright!

Then nobody wins.

Just on the SFA and the encouraging RFC fans participation on here. Could I ask the RFC fans to consider if an identical situation had occurred to any of the other 11 clubs in the old SPL, and assuming the same linkage ie. that CO formerly worked for the club in question, would he still be in a job now?

* in terms of the ‘point’ of the administration I haven’t lost sight of the notion that a second administration (I know I know) might be important in distancing someone/thing from the old days either btw.

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Shooperb

ShooperbPosted on1:12 pm - Feb 11, 2014


m.c.f.c. says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:07 pm
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I can’t see it happening either. If what happened to Hearts is any sort of lesson, then they stagger on till the day after the end of the season, then declare administration. They might have to start the next season with a points deduction, but they don’t have to finish top, only in the play off places, so they might decide that it’s worth it.

They could, of course, do it when they’re sure that they’re far ahead in the league this season, but this brings the danger that if a proper adminstrator was accidentally appointed, then they’d lose their best players whilst still having to contest cups!

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FinlochPosted on1:19 pm - Feb 11, 2014


We don’t represent or speak for all SPFL clubs at present.

The problem we have is that the fan alliance that is TSFM have long debated and analysed the integrated and all inclusive bending of rules that got us to where we are.
We are aware and shocked at the spin and the overwhelming MSM fawning to constantly placate and please the establishment club and its target market
If I can be frank.
I don’t think the blue club was dealt with fairly or openly or honestly.
Everyone knows it.
It was given special status and protected.
But like something out of a Tom Sharpe novel the laws of unintended consequences meant that RCO and Regan and Doncaster effectively relegated their team and then handed them over to the carpetbaggers.
They created a monster which will not go away soon and which I also think will destroy them all.

Auldheid is right and closure will only come after some honesty from the SFA and the Club.
And then some acknowledgement from the blue supporters.
I don’t see that happening, ever.
Our clubs or more specifically our chairmen have got to do the decent thing instead of looking at their shoes.
And they won’t.
And what is the legacy of their inaction since they agreed to the 5 way agreement being sprung on them?

– A cancer through our game, – a smouldering civil war, – a long term latent impasse – call it what you will that is storing up and multiplying real problems for the future.

GJ and RG have every right to support a blue team.
They have every right to post here and to be heard and to debate.
They have every right to join our unholy alliance as equals and friends.
I won’t patronise them with appeasement.

The historical facts are their club has screwed everyone that has come into contact with it, certainly since the DM days. Including the fans like GJ and RG.

History will not be kind to the Murray Blue Dynasty.
It will show Rangers the institution cheated on the social taxes, cheated to get players they could not afford and used unfair influences hidden thinly under a commercialism veil.
That to this day they still cultivate an element of religio- racism is something that is not welcome in any situation and needs to be addressed by someone sometime.

There has been real corruption in the fall and fall of the blue club and that remains the biggest unpublished story in town and the biggest thing we have to monitor.

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SmugasPosted on1:20 pm - Feb 11, 2014


m.c.f.c. says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:07 pm

I hate to spoil anyone’s fun, but I’d be amazed if things are so bad at Ibrox that they’ll fall into chaotic Admin in the next week or so.

If I was Laxey, R&M or Damille I’d want to get to the end of the season without Admin, without SFA involvement, with a couple of cups in hand (maybe), with CEO and Chairman intact and without HMRC on my back.. I’d be prepared to stump up a couple of mill to see this happen, to be repaid from the first of the ST money – on commensurate terms you understand. Then the necessary can be done at leisure over the summer – when everyone is engrossed in the World Cup.(c) MCFC Corporate Strategy Consultants Inc.

Per my previous post I agree with you generally. From a purely footballing perspective (remember that) the only purpose I could see would be to get rid of the points deduction when it didn’t matter with a view to entering the championship suitably cleansed.

Edit, sorry read your subsequent post. It would be a massive gamble for sevco to basically bank on a top 4 place (play offs?) and take a start of season points deduction on board. I don’t think they do gambles like that do they!

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Lord WobblyPosted on1:25 pm - Feb 11, 2014


The final push?

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/6295-quarter-season-tickets-on-sale

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on1:26 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Allyjambo says:
February 11, 2014 at 12:47 pm

There’s a wee discussion going on over on the jamboskickback site over the thought that any β€˜voluntary’ administration might be delayed because of the possibility CW would then lodge an arrestment with regards to his claim that could delay coming out of administration for years. I suppose that whether or not Whyte would do this, the very thought could cause much consternation amongst those pacing the carpets at Ibrox as it would likely scupper any plans to transfer the ownership of the heritable property. This, of course, presupposes that TRFC are in as much trouble as we all suspect.
——————————————————————————————————————————————–

That can’t happen. Once a company goes into administration, no legal process may be started or continued against it or its assets (unless a court or the administrators consents – which they wouldn’t).

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m.c.f.c.Posted on1:37 pm - Feb 11, 2014


How to Lance the Craig Whyte Contingent Liability Boil

What would it take to buy off Craig Whyte and release the assets? Well, he needs $17mil to pay Ticketus plus probably a couple more mil for legal fees. So anything less than Β£20mill gets Craig a net ZERO, unless paid in readies in Panama. So that looks like a dead-end.

Maybe a lucrative. multi-year deal for Ticketus at Ibrox would persuade them to write off Craig’s debt. A couple more mil for pocket money and Criag might be happy. Remember, any Ticketus deal would be the problem (opportunity) of the new owner of TRFC once floated off from RIFC. That seems to rule out Admin because the Ticketus / TRFC deal would need to survive intact.

Or RIFC could just call Craig’s bluff and counter-sue – but that would take more than a summer – and the activist shareholders won’t want to wait that long.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on1:47 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Many thanks to all who contributed on the origin of the term “controlled administration”.

There are a variety of reasons why a company goes into administration. I think however it is possible to distil them down into three scenarios.

1. The company suffers a sudden adverse financial “shock”;

2. The directors/shareholders/main lenders (the “stakeholders”) can see the insolvency coming from a long way off; or

3. A creditor threatens to issue (usually) winding up proceedings thus forcing the directors to put the company into administration.

1 and 3 above generally give the directors/stakeholders little opportunity to “plan” the insolvency. 2 is different.

It is possible to have a “planned” insolvency. It is not possible to have a “controlled” insolvency (at least in the sense of the stakeholders “controlling” it). What I mean by this is that under the law of the land, the only party who is in control in an administration is the administrator. The directors do not direct the administrator, the shareholders do not have the ability to tell the administrator what to do and lenders (even floating chargeholders) do not have the ability to tell the administrator what should happen.

The administrator owes his or her duties to the creditors of the company as a whole.

Fundamentally, that means trying to get the best return to creditors that can be achieved – whether by saving the company, selling the business or breaking it all up and auctioning every last bit to the highest bidders.

Given the order of priorities in distributions to creditors in insolvencies, (basically the fact that secured creditors broadly get paid back before unsecured creditors), the interests of secured creditors may seem to have more importance in how the administrator carries out his or her duties but fundamentally, the administrator owes duties to all creditors. This is different from what we used to see in receiverships (where the receiver owed duties only to the floating chargeholder). This was seen as a bad thing and therefore the law was changed in 2003. So now we rarely see receiverships. In fact, a receiver cannot be appointed (except in situations that do not apply here) unless there is a floating charge that was granted prior to September 2003.

I suspect the reference to a “controlled” administration is likely to really be applicable in scenario 2. It is possible to do some planning in advance of an administration taking place. One form of such planning is a pre-pack where the stakeholders and the party to be appointed as administrator are in discussions prior to the administration appointment being made. The plan in a pre-pack is that the business and assets are sold immediately upon the administrator being appointed with the intention that the business then carries on effectively seamlessly. This is difficult to do where the consent of third parties (permits, authorisations, licenses) is required. It would be necessary to tee up those licenses, authorisations, permits etc in advance.

However pre-packing is not the only form of planning. It is also important not to be naΓ―ve here and to understand that administrators are keen to ensure that their workstreams continue. So, it is common to see administrators who are favourable to secured lenders (particularly of course the banks who are in a position to make repeat appointments and to give continual workflows to administrators) having a strong say in how administrations are conducted and a strong sway over what the administrator does.

However, by planning, what I think is generally meant is that the objective of the administration is agreed in advance with stakeholders. That objective might be that the administrator will propose a CVA (thus hopefully leading to the survival of the limited company itself) or the administrator might agree in advance that the appropriate thing to do upon appointment is to look to shut down a particular bit of the business or make a certain amount of redundancies. It might be that this sort of planning and agreed strategy is in place at the commencement of the administration.

But the administrator cannot be constrained in following such a pre-agreed strategy if, in the conduct of the administration, it becomes apparent that that strategy is not in the best interest of the creditors. It is not uncommon for such strategies and plans to go awry very quickly when an administrator discovers that matters are not as they had been portrayed prior to the administration.

A “controlled administration” may be like a “controlled explosion”. You think you know what is going to happen but as soon as you light the fuse and step away, the detonation might just end up doing things you didn’t foresee.

I wonder if the blast zone round Ibrox stretches to Hampden. Maybe ecobhoy knows.

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redlichtiePosted on1:55 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Smugas says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:20 pm
m.c.f.c. says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:07 pm

I hate to spoil anyone’s fun, but I’d be amazed if things are so bad at Ibrox that they’ll fall into chaotic Admin in the next week or so.

If I was Laxey, R&M or Damille I’d want to get to the end of the season without Admin, without SFA involvement, with a couple of cups in hand (maybe), with CEO and Chairman intact and without HMRC on my back.. I’d be prepared to stump up a couple of mill to see this happen, to be repaid from the first of the ST money – on commensurate terms you understand. Then the necessary can be done at leisure over the summer – when everyone is engrossed in the World Cup.(c) MCFC Corporate Strategy Consultants Inc.

Per my previous post I agree with you generally. From a purely footballing perspective (remember that) the only purpose I could see would be to get rid of the points deduction when it didn’t matter with a view to entering the championship suitably cleansed.

Edit, sorry read your subsequent post. It would be a massive gamble for sevco to basically bank on a top 4 place (play offs?) and take a start of season points deduction on board. I don’t think they do gambles like that do they!
===========================================================
I have to say I agree. TRFC would be crazy to wait until the season is over before going into administration.

Accepting a points penalty for next season would put them at a serious disadvantage against far better teams than they have faced so far. If this was to be the case I suspect that they would struggle to then make the Premier League with potentially disastrous consequences.

Far better to bite the bullet as soon as they are 25+ points ahead this season and able to bear (sorry!) a 25 points deduction. Surely even AM could then win enough matches to gain promotion? Perhaps the parting of the ways will come at that point and a more effective and appropriately remunerated manager will be appointed.

The friendly administrator would keep things rolling along with the get-out that promotion is in the interests of the creditors (largely RIFC) and a quick pre-pack effected leaving a nice fresh ‘club’ with no debt to be sold onto ‘Real Rangers Men’.

Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on1:56 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Lord Wobbly says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:25 pm
0 0 Rate This

The final push?

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/6295-quarter-season-tickets-on-sale

===================================================================

I guess we all know how this LOOKS, but you know what, it’s a good idea…..and one i think more clubs should think about.

Traditionally, this is the time of year that football clubs start to eat away at the cash they built up earlier in the year – and indeed some clubs use companies like ticketus to see them through until renewals time.

IMO, using a company like ticketus might stabilise the ship, but it’s simply more cash out of the game – and we can’t afford it.

The last qtr of the season is when things are being decided, cups won, titles won, divisions won….and there is of course more demand for fans to “be part of it”

In Sevcos position, they are looking at a very unique cup double and a 1st division title – a truely original and likely to be unrepeated treble…..indeed, possibly some kind of world record! πŸ˜›

So, why not entice those fans who like to see trophies being won……i won’t call them glory hunters, but others might πŸ™„

Brings money in, saves having to raise finance or even the threat of administration. If they were to throw in the possibility of these tickets enabling them to be in the ballot for the cup final draw and the Scottish cup semis/final draws, then that alone might boost sales.

But, in the funny old world that is football, I’ve often wondered if football clubs might ease their cashflow problems and also the not insignificant burden that the tickets cost fans if some kinda “saving fund” could be created.

say fans contributed Β£5 a week for 52 weeks of the year, at the end of teh year they would have Β£260 saved up.

Now, that is the cost of a Sevco season ticket, and it’s a fair chuck out of a Celtic season ticket – meaning at renewal time the ticket would only cost Β£140 in one lump.

they could work it something like this.

in spring/summer of 2014, season ticket renewals go out as normal – and fans pay as normal. (no change there – sorry)
but, around october/november time, fans could start to pay up the Β£5 a week saving scheme. this would go into the clubs bank account and would essentially be an interest free loan/advance from the fans to the club to offset other debts…..almost like getting a season and a halves ST money in advance….then at renewal time, the club doesn’t get as huge a sum of cash in the summer, but it already has received much of that cash up front

of course, it would need a well run club to not simply blow all that cash on drugs and hookers, but it should help alleviate the issues of seeking expensive, short term funding – and after the 1st year, the financial burden on the fans would be greatly reduced.

Thoughts?

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SmugasPosted on2:02 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Red lichtie

Correct – with the one minor proviso that in that scenario you hand a hell of a lot of power to the players and their influential manager, a fact I’m fairly certain has not passed GW by.

That said, surely the manager wouldn’t be contrite enough to cut off his own blue nose would he?

Depends on what he believes the ultimate plan is of course!

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m.c.f.c.Posted on2:05 pm - Feb 11, 2014


redlichtie says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:55 pm
Far better to bite the bullet as soon as they are 25+ points ahead this season and able to bear (sorry!) a 25 points deduction. Surely even AM could then win enough matches to gain promotion? Perhaps the parting of the ways will come at that point and a more effective and appropriately remunerated manager will be appointed.
============================================================
redlichtie – that makes perfect sense if your priority is the long-term progress of a football team. But if your priority is immediate cash flow, a warm feeling for the fans, maximum early ST sales and offloading a football club in the summer with minimum external interference (HMRC, SFA, Administrators) then my solution makes more sense.

There’s nothing to say that your scenario cannot be achieved with post-season Admin and a little help from one’s friends.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on2:12 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Mickleen says:
February 11, 2014 at 12:33 pm
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Brenda says:

February 11, 2014 at 9:22 am
When are the sevco superstars due to be paid ? Middle of the month ? And are the vat payments etc outstanding or just due?
================================================================================
VAT due tomorrow Brenda (three working days from last date for submission of return). IF the return was submitted on time and there’s no money to cover it then I wonder if Wallace can stay beyond tomorrow as he will know (and it will be demonstrable that he knew on this date if/when the company goes down the pan) that the Company is trading insolvent.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-
Failing to make payment on the due date for payment is not a test for wrongful trading (there is no such thing as “trading insolvent(ly)” as far as the law is concerned).

What matters is the earlier date when you knew that the company would not be able to make that payment.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on2:18 pm - Feb 11, 2014


redlichtie says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:55 pm

“…………….the Premier League with potentially disastrous consequences”

———————————————————————————————————————————————-

Is that what we are calling it now?

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MickleenPosted on2:27 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:
February 11, 2014 at 2:12 pm
Mickleen says:
February 11, 2014 at 12:33 pm
VAT due tomorrow Brenda (three working days from last date for submission of return). IF the return was submitted on time and there’s no money to cover it then I wonder if Wallace can stay beyond tomorrow as he will know (and it will be demonstrable that he knew on this date if/when the company goes down the pan) that the Company is trading insolvent.
β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”-
Failing to make payment on the due date for payment is not a test for wrongful trading (there is no such thing as β€œtrading insolvent(ly)” as far as the law is concerned).

What matters is the earlier date when you knew that the company would not be able to make that payment.
================================================================================
I agree with your last sentence, but see my bit in brackets, there can be no wriggle room after tomorrow.

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on2:30 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:

February 11, 2014 at 1:47 pm

Thanks again for another informed explanation of administrations. I think the reason we get the idea of a ‘controlled’ administration is because the only one most have ever observed was the one involving Rangers FC. Although at times it looked chaotic, and out of control, it did seem to have a pre-determined result and administrators who didn’t proceed in the best interest of the creditors. I think, though, that what many people here mean by ‘controlled’ is that, unless they are actually insolvent, the directors will choose the timing of an administration should it actually be on the cards, to best suits their end-game.

You’ve also debunked the idea that Whyte’s claim could scupper an administration, so we can rule that out as a cause for any delay in the timing of any administration. We have to accept, also, that however unlikely the club continuing without an insolvency event from what we know, it is just possible we’ve read it wrong.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on2:30 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Mickleen says:
February 11, 2014 at 2:27 pm
I agree with your last sentence, but see my bit in brackets, there can be no wriggle room after tomorrow.

———————————————————————————————————————————————
A year from now it would be demonstrable that he knew last week that they couldn’t make the payment tomorrow.

πŸ˜•

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on2:45 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:26 pm
3 0 Rate Down

Allyjambo says:
February 11, 2014 at 12:47 pm

There’s a wee discussion going on over on the jamboskickback site over the thought that any β€˜voluntary’ administration might be delayed because of the possibility CW would then lodge an arrestment with regards to his claim that could delay coming out of administration for years. I suppose that whether or not Whyte would do this, the very thought could cause much consternation amongst those pacing the carpets at Ibrox as it would likely scupper any plans to transfer the ownership of the heritable property. This, of course, presupposes that TRFC are in as much trouble as we all suspect.
——————————————————————————————————————————————–

That can’t happen. Once a company goes into administration, no legal process may be started or continued against it or its assets (unless a court or the administrators consents – which they wouldn’t).

===============================================

yeah, but a company must apply to the courts to go into Administration, what if CW was to object to this or to present his case for the assets before admin was granted. I’m sure he’d be watching very closely.

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Exiled CeltPosted on2:52 pm - Feb 11, 2014


upthehoops says:

February 11, 2014 at 6:23 am

Slightly O.T, but definitely relevant to the blog. Someone pointed out to me fairly recently that five people named in the BBC programme as receiving EBT’s are in the employ of the BBC from time to time. So that’s people who gained from a tax avoidance scheme that has still not been concluded in court, getting paid from a taxpayer funded organisation.

*****************

After reading your good point there UTH, it occurred to me that BBC may also have been able to benefit from the EBTs in that they got 5 resources who because of the EBTs they received were maybe not so desperate for money as others and so were more than happy to settle for lower remuneration from the BBC than other ex-players who had no other means of income and needed a higher wage to justify the part time work offered……..

I am sure LNS will rule no broadcasting advantage was gained by the BBC :mrgreen:

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Galling fiverPosted on2:55 pm - Feb 11, 2014


The UTT comes before the end of the season, and HMRC already have the Aberdeen asset management case as a precedent as previously pointed out by one of the more knowledgeable.

Is the UTT to be of no consequence to the “same club”? Only a pursuit of individuals, who have had up to a decade to get creative with their own assets.

I’ll wait and see what that brings, before I read too much into the current financial situation. At the very least I’ll be expecting a “clear break”, or in the event that its another courtroom non-event πŸ˜‰ , I’ll have no interest in anything further anyway.

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SmugasPosted on2:56 pm - Feb 11, 2014


yeah, but a company must apply to the courts to go into Administration, what if CW was to object to this or to present his case for the assets before admin was granted. I’m sure he’d be watching very closely.
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as I said, IF administration is required (and I’ve said I don’t think it is at the moment as long as they can scrabble cash from somewhere else) AND the end game is a continuing footballing journey upwards, either directly or on sale of the club sans assets to some other interested party, then this is the soft underbelly you would think Whyte’s relatively weak case in particular would target.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on3:05 pm - Feb 11, 2014


24. Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
February 11, 2014 at 2:45 pm

yeah, but a company must apply to the courts to go into Administration, what if CW was to object to this or to present his case for the assets before admin was granted. I’m sure he’d be watching very closely.
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There would be no court hearing for an administration this time round. All that has to happen is for a Form 2.8B (Scot) to be filed at court and the administrator is appointed. It is effectively an “out of court” process.

What was different last time round was that there was a floating chargeholder to whom notice had to be given before an appointment could take place. When notice is given, the chargeholder has 5 Business Days to make its own appointment (if it wants to). HMRC did not want the gap so they intervened in the process.

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ScotsExpatPosted on3:28 pm - Feb 11, 2014


thistleCA says:
February 10, 2014 at 9:57 pm

Having only just arrived in Houston after more years than I care to think of travelling the Middle East and Far East, I havent had a chance to Go Dynamo. However, having watched the local clubs in Dubai, Bangkok etc, I am sure I will find the time to don an orange shirt, a non-sectarian orange shirt I hasten to add…

March 8th the season kicks off at BBVA against the NE Revolution. It would be a shame to miss an ex-Jambo, Andrew Driver, playing in our mutually adopted home town…

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FrankiePosted on3:36 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Mickleen says:
February 11, 2014 at 12:33 pm
8 0 i
Rate This

Brenda says:

February 11, 2014 at 9:22 am
When are the sevco superstars due to be paid ? Middle of the month ? And are the vat payments etc outstanding or just due?
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VAT due tomorrow Brenda (three working days from last date for submission of return). IF the return was submitted on time and there’s no money to cover it then I wonder if Wallace can stay beyond tomorrow as he will know (and it will be demonstrable that he knew on this date if/when the company goes down the pan) that the Company is trading insolvent.
β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”-
For the VAT quarter ended 31st December 2013 HMRC must have cleared funds in their account on 7th February 2014. There is no extension on this.

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MickleenPosted on3:49 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Frankie says:

February 11, 2014 at 3:36 pm
β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”β€”-
For the VAT quarter ended 31st December 2013 HMRC must have cleared funds in their account on 7th February 2014. There is no extension on this.
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Nope. Electronic return to be submitted by 7th. Direct debit taken tomorrow. I.E. three working days after 7th.

Not being a pedant here, just think if I was Wallace I’d be on my good foot tomorrow.

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Esteban

EstebanPosted on4:09 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Mickleen and Frankie

You guys talk as though the normal rules applied …

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m.c.f.c.Posted on4:09 pm - Feb 11, 2014


What is it about gambling on football that McCulloch and McCoist don’t understand?

The Rangers ARE favourites for the Scottish Cup with some bookies – not because they ARE the best team – not because the bookies judge them TO BE the best team – but because more money has been bet on them to win than on any other team. As a consequence the bookie have reduced the odds they offer to balance their books.

Ah – silly me – now I’m beginning to understand – it’s balancing the books that they don’t understand.

Surely Mr Black should be sharing his expertise and educating his colleagues, to stop them making complete numpties of themselves with all this β€œwe’re not the favourites” bullsh*t.

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John ClarkPosted on4:12 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Exiled Celt says:
February 11, 2014 at 2:52 pm
‘…who because of the EBTs they received were maybe not so desperate for money as others and so were more than happy to settle for lower remuneration from the BBC than other ex-players .’
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Geez, you’ll have Murdo and Wullie asking Billy for a sight of his BBC cheque! πŸ˜€

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m.c.f.c.Posted on4:17 pm - Feb 11, 2014


john clarke says:
February 11, 2014 at 4:12 pm

Exiled Celt says:
February 11, 2014 at 2:52 pm
β€˜β€¦who because of the EBTs they received were maybe not so desperate for money as others and so were more than happy to settle for lower remuneration from the BBC than other ex-players .’
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Geez, you’ll have Murdo and Wullie asking Billy for a sight of his BBC cheque! πŸ˜€
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So, if they need to pay tax on the EBTs, they’ll need to do more hours at the BBC ? Be careful what you wish for πŸ™‚

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Jack JarvisPosted on4:23 pm - Feb 11, 2014


This question has maybe previously been asked and answered, in which case I missed it, but has the amount of VAT due to be paid for the quarter ended 31st December been established, roughly calculated, or blindly guessed? And, who is responsible for payment: RIFC, TRFC, or both?

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MoreCelticParanoia

MoreCelticParanoiaPosted on4:25 pm - Feb 11, 2014


redlichtie says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:55 pm

Far better to bite the bullet as soon as they are 25+ points ahead this season and able to bear (sorry!) a 25 points deduction. Surely even AM could then win enough matches to gain promotion? Perhaps the parting of the ways will come at that point and a more effective and appropriately remunerated manager will be appointed.
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Surely in that scenario AM consolidates his legend status as the man who led the club to promotion despite a 25 point penalty from the Rangers hating fly kickers and therefore becomes even more difficult to dislodge?

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on4:30 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Jack Jarvis says:
February 11, 2014 at 4:23 pm
0 0 Rate This

This question has maybe previously been asked and answered, in which case I missed it, but has the amount of VAT due to be paid for the quarter ended 31st December been established, roughly calculated, or blindly guessed? And, who is responsible for payment: RIFC, TRFC, or both?

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The taxpayer calculates the VAT due, the figure should be correct. There are serious penalties for incorrect returns. As the trading entity, it is likely that TRFC is responsible for VAT. HMRC don’t really care who pays it, but if it is unpaid, enforcement action will be against the trading company, TRFC.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on4:38 pm - Feb 11, 2014


MoreCelticParanoia says:
February 11, 2014 at 4:25 pm

Surely in that scenario AM consolidates his legend status as the man who led the club to promotion despite a 25 point penalty from the Rangers hating fly kickers and therefore becomes even more difficult to dislodge?
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Or they could win the league by a world record margin for the third tier in a small country. AM just can’t lose.

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Jack JarvisPosted on4:44 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Thanks, neepheid. I know that the rate is 20%, but have any figures been produced and authenticated which would enable you to calculate the amount due to be debited from TRFC’s account tomorrow

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enough is enoughPosted on4:45 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Hope this clears up the discussion re VAT payment deadlines

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tools/vatpaymentsdeadline/calculator.htm

As you will see, payment on the 12th of a month is only for Direct Debit transactions.(All others (bar cheque payments) are due on the 7th.

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Bawsman

BawsmanPosted on5:34 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Surely……… πŸ™„ ………..If the Rangers are put into administration this will be because they are employing players they cannot afford to pay thus gaining a sporting advantage over all the other contenders for the league?

Sporting integrity would prohibit such a promotion?

Have we been here before?……………Seems awfy familiar.

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SmugasPosted on5:38 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Auchinstarry

You forgot the home tie unnecessarily for semi finals and four play off places next season on the accumulator!

Amateur.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on5:52 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Jack Jarvis says:
February 11, 2014 at 4:44 pm
1 0 Rate This

Thanks, neepheid. I know that the rate is 20%, but have any figures been produced and authenticated which would enable you to calculate the amount due to be debited from TRFC’s account tomorrow
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Sorry, Jack, my poor old fag packet doesn’t stretch to that. The only people who know are the finance people at Ibrox. I would guess maybe Β£500k. Might well be less, since the final quarter of the year for a football business is generally poor in terms of cash in, while cash out would be above average, electricity, security, stuff like that. I’m assuming that VAT is accounted for on ST money as it comes in, but somebody might want to correct me on that.

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SmugasPosted on5:58 pm - Feb 11, 2014


I’ve had a flasback to a cynical old lecturer in accountancy for numpties that I attended.

The thing with VAT is to pay it out means it must have come in. If its been spent inbetween then there’s something gone wrong somewhere.

I’ve suddenly realised what he meant!

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Jack JarvisPosted on6:10 pm - Feb 11, 2014


neepheid says:
February 11, 2014 at 5:52 pm

Thanks again, neepheid.
If you’re even close with your guess, that’s a significant amount for an organisation who are on their uppers, allegedly, and who were trawling for funding in London last week, allegedly, to lose. I’m sure they’ll have put it aside, however.

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AuldheidPosted on6:22 pm - Feb 11, 2014


One of the issues that came up in the podcast but I cannot remember if it survived editing was about expectation levels in terms of Europe.

Now since it was Celtic expectation levels it is a debate more for Celtic fans so I’m going to just post the link to a CQN item that looks at the parallels between Ajax and Celtic in Europe.

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=14696&cpage=6#comment-2081973

However there is a link to the wider game because how Celtic decide to play it could have ramifications on how competitive other Scottish clubs become and UEFA money is key to it all which goes back to what is in the podcast.

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