Podcast Episode 1

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Podcast Episode 1

SFM PodcastOur First podcast features a general discussion involving our own Big Pink and Auldheid.
Since it is the first podcast there is no particular agenda save for a general chat about TSFM, the state of Scottish Football, and some few reminiscences. The chat covers a lot of ground, but establishes the ethos of the blog pretty well.

Topics discussed include FPP, Leadership, Interdependence, Scotland’s self-regard, Coaching and Nurturing of Talent, Redistribution of Income, Rangers, Forgiveness, domestic strife 🙂

The interview was conducted a couple of days before the latest round of Armageddon, when Big Pink and Auldheid felt safe and well 🙂

The link below is to the iTunes store page for our Podcasts.  If you go there, you can subscribe to the podcast (on your PC or iPhone) and new episodes will automatically be sent to you.

Since we have just been approved for a spot on iTunes, the iTunes search side of things may not work properly for a day or so.

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About the author

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Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,849 Comments so far

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upthehoopsPosted on6:37 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Heard the first ten minutes of Radio Clyde tonight. The ‘Gers heading for a ‘special’ season it seems. Gordon Dalziel reckons Aberdeen are a decent team, but not a terrific one. Which makes Rangers what, exactly?

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AuldheidPosted on6:53 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Whilst on the subject of reforming Scottish football, something that was touched on in the podcast, this excellent article from Oct 2012 on Glasnost and a Pair of Strikers is well worth bringing back to the fore.

The author is The Battered Bunnett from CQN but it is not a CQN article.

http://glasnostandapairofstrikers.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/reforming-scottish-football-some-initial-questions/

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Barcabhoy

BarcabhoyPosted on7:10 pm - Feb 11, 2014


On the issue of Anti Rangers sentiment.

I received a lot of feedback on my post earlier. A big response on twitter, a huge number of direct messages and a emails and texts .

Not one was from a Rangers supporter. Not a single tweet, direct message, or response on here that i’ve seen. Given the post was written in response to claims that the blog had an anti Rangers sentiment, and some Rangers supporters were complaining that they were not being give respect, it’s strange that this silence has occurred.

There hasnt even been the usual attempt to deflect or debate one tiny element whilst ignoring the main point. A friend of mine, who is a Rangers man and has both the experience, the brains and the money to make a difference at Ibrox, maybe hit the nail on the head in a conversation we had recently. He despises David Murray, both personally and from a business perspective, but he doesn’t want him investigated. The reason ? He knows that any proper full investigation would show that Rangers and Murray cheated at a level so serious that the sanctions would mean expulsion or title stripping.

I want neither, although I thought title stripping would have been appropriate, but that moment has passed . His fear though is that the public humiliation, even deserved , would kill his club. Maybe he is right, and if he is then of course any Rangers supporter would be correct to resist that at all costs.

My view is that there is already enough evidence through Nimmo Smith and the small tax case to ban Murray for life. Yes its tokenism, as he’s a busted flush. However it is more than merited, and if the UTT deliver a guilty verdict it should be inconceivable that a life ban isn’t issued to all who created this scam without delay.

The media have been largely quiet on Murray, some notable exceptions apart. Tom English wrote a fantastic piece which left Murray without a name, Graham Spiers also has been very critical over some issues. However even they haven’t called for a life ban, thats their opinion and they are entitled to it, but i suspect a very large majority of Scottish football fans would disagree with them

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Tif FinnPosted on7:16 pm - Feb 11, 2014


It is worth bearing in mind that businesses do not really “pay” VAT.

They collect it on behalf of the Government and remit it when it is due. A company which does not have the money available to make it’s remittance has basically spent money which is not theirs and actually belongs to HMRC / the Government.

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auchinstarryPosted on7:26 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Smugas @5-38pm.

My post is obviously in Moderation…. ❓ 😈 ………..I coulda bet on that,,,,,,,

You might have lost that bet. No post from you anywhere.
TSFM

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Esteban

EstebanPosted on7:31 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Barçabhoy
“His fear though is that the public humiliation, even deserved , would kill his club.”

Has your friend got a good explanation as to how his club managed to survive liquidation, or why public humiliation would be worse than liquidation?

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GoosyGoosyPosted on7:44 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:

February 11, 2014 at 3:05 pm
24. Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
February 11, 2014 at 2:45 pm

yeah, but a company must apply to the courts to go into Administration, what if CW was to object to this or to present his case for the assets before admin was granted. I’m sure he’d be watching very closely.
—————————————————————————————————————————————–
There would be no court hearing for an administration this time round. All that has to happen is for a Form 2.8B (Scot) to be filed at court and the administrator is appointed. It is effectively an “out of court” process.

What was different last time round was that there was a floating chargeholder to whom notice had to be given before an appointment could take place. When notice is given, the chargeholder has 5 Business Days to make its own appointment (if it wants to). HMRC did not want the gap so they intervened in the process.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Except

We are dealing with Spivs
These guys are well aware that the financial penalty for late filing details of a floating chargeholder is peanuts
So
For all we know
A floating chargeholder can be filed late and swiftly be followed by the appointment of a prepack Administrator
,,,,,,,,,,,
I wouldn’t trust anybody in this saga whether they are Spivs with a track record in Spivery or quick buck merchants who profess integrity

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upthehoopsPosted on7:47 pm - Feb 11, 2014


slimshady61 says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:33 am

UTH, the problem is that the outlook from HMRC’s office at Haymarket Yards in Edinburgh is markedly different from that in Portcullis House, Glasgow.

Discuss
====================================
Just catching up here Slim. Something made HMRC allow themselves to be taunted for months in Glasgow, while roaring ‘don’t mess with us or you’ll get hurt’ over in Edinburgh. I’m afraid I have no confidence at all they would move swiftly this time if payments from Ibrox fail to make it.

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justshatered

justshateredPosted on7:56 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Barcabhoy says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:10 pm
The reason ? He knows that any proper full investigation would show that Rangers and Murray cheated at a level so serious that the sanctions would mean expulsion or title stripping.
========================================================================
And there is the nub of the problem!!
“He knows”, yes “He knows”, that there has been serious wrong doing and probably illegal activity within the Ibrox boardroom going back at least ten to fifteen years. This friend of yours has a public duty, otherwise he is complicit, to report it to the police.
This is the real problem in this whole tawdry affair. Journalists, and some posters, hint at explosive information tantalisingly kept hidden from the general public.

It isn’t the honesty of the game at stake here but the general financial governance of business.
If anyone knew of company acting, or behaving, illegally they would report them to the authorities as quickly as possible.
Yet here we have a business, masquerading as some mythical club and a compliant establishment, cheating every man, woman, and child in our nation.
It is beyond contempt that a football club, yes a football club, should have such a pervading grip on the society of any nation. Now if this was a multi-national company worth billions and employing thousands of people you would understand why such a stance would be taken but it isn’t its a cheating football club, worth very little, employing less than 280 people.
Truth is the deadliest weapon in this scandal and there are people in our society that know what it is but will not tell it.
Shame on them they have no………………………………. what is the word…………………………… oh yes…………………………………… ‘DIGNITY’!!!!!!!

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Danish PastryPosted on8:23 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Excellent new podcast logo!

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RyanGosling

RyanGoslingPosted on8:30 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Barcabhoy I realise your most recent post wasn’t aimed just at me but as one of the rangers fans in question I will respond. I didn’t comment on your post yesterday but did give it a thumbs up. (Would be good if there was a Facebook style thing to show who was posting the thumbs up and thumbs down?) I was chased by wottpi yesterday also for not answering posts but unfortunately I didn’t have time to go through and comment on every post I’d like to.

The main reason I didn’t provide any specific retort to your post was that I agreed with most of it I believe and didn’t see anything to argue with. So it was either a quick post of “I agree with you Barca on that post” or a thumbs up. I chose the quick option.

The only other thing I’d say on the subject is that you’re always bound to get a bigger and more enthusiastic response from people who enjoyed and agreed with your opinions than from people who perhaps agree but don’t necessarily enjoy it too much. Like if you came bearing news that a relative of mine had died. I would agree with you that they had but wouldn’t necessarily send you a congratulatory tweet for bearing the message! (P.s. All – that was just an off the top of the head example, please don’t bombard me with OC/NC stuff now, I get it practically every time I post here and I’ve given my views on the subject many times.)

Cheers Barca.

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redlichtiePosted on8:39 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Barcabhoy says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:10 pm
My view is that there is already enough evidence through Nimmo Smith and the small tax case to ban Murray for life. Yes its tokenism, as he’s a busted flush. However it is more than merited, and if the UTT deliver a guilty verdict it should be inconceivable that a life ban isn’t issued to all who created this scam without delay.
==========================================================

And that should obviously include CO who not only appears to have been involved in the administration of the schemes but also participated to his own financial advantage. For him to cling on to office should (when?) HMRC win the UTT appeal is surely beyond even his level of brass-neckedness!

Scottish Football needs an early and credible UTT verdict.

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CarntynePosted on8:41 pm - Feb 11, 2014


redlichtie says:
February 11, 2014 at 1:55 pm
16 1 Rate This

Far better to bite the bullet as soon as they (Sevco) are 25+ points ahead this season and able to bear (sorry!) a 25 points deduction. Surely even AM could then win enough matches to gain promotion?
___________________________________________________________________________

The new Ibrox club have shown that when it comes to shedding debt, Sevco are quite happy to claim they are a new club, so I think it likely they will admit it once again when it comes to being penalised by a points deduction for entering administration.

15 pts deduction.

“We are the same club” claims only apply to keeping the history. 🙄

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on8:43 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Barcabhoy says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:10 pm

I want neither, although I thought title stripping would have been appropriate, but that moment has passed . His fear though is that the public humiliation, even deserved , would kill his club. Maybe he is right, and if he is then of course any Rangers supporter would be correct to resist that at all costs.
=================================
Well that just about sums it up for me. Scotland in a nutshell. Whatever happened to honesty, justice and self respect in this best wee country in the world?

Here’s a last thought for tonight from planet neepheid, which appears to have become strangely detached from planet Scottish fitba’ over recent years. Any supporter who comes to the conclusion that an honest exposure of the FACTS about his club would humiliate and kill his club, should turn his back on that club and walk away. That seems to me to be self evident . Why would any self respecting, honest person want to retain any attachment to a club which clearly cannot survive the exposure of the simple truth about its grubby, filthy, dishonest goings on? The fact that you feel that it would be “correct” for a Rangers supporter to resist the exposure of the simple truth “at all costs”, I find unbearably sad. Has the whole of Scottish society been corrupted beyond recall?

Of course this resistance to the truth “at all costs” by the Rangers supporters is what has poisoned the well of Scottish football. The fact that they drink from the same well themselves doesn’t bother them. After all, no one likes them, and they don’t care. They long for Armageddon, that is their dream. Because then their own disgrace will be lost in the wreckage, totally lost sight of in the ruins of Scottish football.

Expediency rules, nothing else matters. Truth, fairness, justice, who cares. We are all being dragged down to the level of Sir David Murray. And that’s exactly where he wants us all. The media and the Rangers support were easily bought, 10 years ago or more. And in truth, he simply showed them the way to where they wanted to go anyway. Now the rest of Scottish football joins the procession. Ogilvie crowned, unopposed by not one single club. There is the moral compass of Scottish football. How could a thing like that possibly happen? One word- expediency.

And yes, 2 years ago almost, the fans of the other clubs managed to stop the rush to total corruption in its tracks. What would the clubs have done, left to their own devices? Without fan pressure? Does anyone have any doubts? The clubs knuckled under (sort of), but against their own instincts. Those instincts were fully exposed at the AGM, in the absence of any fan pressure. Another 2 years for Ogilvie. THAT is the kind of Scottish football the clubs want. Sorry, not for me folks.

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Danish PastryPosted on8:45 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Barcabhoy on February 11, 2014 at 7:10 pm
38 1 Rate This

… Maybe he is right, and if he is then of course any Rangers supporter would be correct to resist that at all costs.
——–

I’m not sure I agree with the above. Any club that far gone deserves to be binned. Why is it correct to hang on to it at all costs? If it deserves expulsion it should be expelled; if title stripping, they should be stripped. Surely coming to some sort of accommodation because they are who they … uh, were … blocks fans who may feel that an alternative should be started?

I’ve probably misunderstood you, but as I read the above it seems to reflect the pragmatism of SFA thinking which has caused much of the ongoing trouble.

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Bawsman

BawsmanPosted on8:50 pm - Feb 11, 2014


redlichtie says:
February 11, 2014 at 8:39 pm
===============================

Spot on mate, the rangers are a sideshow in this for me.

I am staggered that our press have not hounded CO out of office……and the people who prop him up.

A Public Inquiry into the whole banking/Masterton/Murray/Bain/Longmuir/Peat/Smith/Bryson/LNS/SFA cabal is what should be demanded.

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andygraham.66Posted on8:55 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Ayr player Moffat appeal sees him get 6 games 2 suspended

So as long as him and Black behave then It’s one more than Black for betting to win as opposed to betting to lose

And, if I may be so bold, four less than he would have got had he supported another team as he would just have been one of the many who do it (wrongly) without interest from anyone outwith the bookie who has to pay if they win

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bmchughPosted on8:58 pm - Feb 11, 2014


redlichtie says:
February 11, 2014 at 8:39 pm

And that should obviously include CO who not only appears to have been involved in the administration of the schemes but also participated to his own financial advantage. For him to cling on to office should (when?) HMRC win the UTT appeal is surely beyond even his level of brass-neckedness!
*********
Surely you meant ‘Brassneckery’? 🙂

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on9:02 pm - Feb 11, 2014


andygraham.66 says:
February 11, 2014 at 8:55 pm
2 0 Rate This

Ayr player Moffat appeal sees him get 6 games 2 suspended

So as long as him and Black behave then It’s one more than Black for betting to win as opposed to betting to lose

And, if I may be so bold, four less than he would have got had he supported another team as he would just have been one of the many who do it (wrongly) without interest from anyone outwith the bookie who has to pay if they win

=================================================

yeah, i saw this earlier……this case, IMO, highlights perfectly why the SFA are not fit for purpose

1. the punishments dished out are pathetic (in both cases)
2. the complete lack of consistency in the punishments handed out.

no leadership
no ability to protect the game
no consistency which gives a perceived bias to one club

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GoosyGoosyPosted on9:02 pm - Feb 11, 2014


RyanGosling says:

February 11, 2014 at 8:30 pm
,,,,,,,,,,,,
Ryan
I`m warming fast to your measured posts
I wish there were more Bears like you posting on this forum

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on9:32 pm - Feb 11, 2014


GoosyGoosy

You don’t need a floating charge to do a pre-pack (although clearly it benefits the chargeholder).

A floating charge that is not registered within 21 days of grant is invalid in an insolvency.

A floating charge that secures pre-existing debt is virtually worthless in an insolvency that follows soon after.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on9:35 pm - Feb 11, 2014


I love the term ‘simpering acquiescence’ but the sentiment itself makes me squeamish.

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John ClarkPosted on9:36 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Carntyne says:
February 11, 2014 at 8:41 pm
‘….“We are the same club” claims only apply to keeping the history. :roll:’
————
And that is the unbelievable mess the SFA got into, dealing with two quite separate football clubs round the same table , trying to transmigrate the soul of one into the body of the other! And blaming the second body for some (and only some) of the offences of the lifeless corpse.

I cannot believe that they even tried that, and appear to have got away with it, at the high price, of course, of branding themselves as liars and cheats and protectors of liars and cheats.

Meantime, though, BDO are still quietly investigating, and we live in some hope that something of the real rottenness of the whole foul chapter in Scottish football and wider social history will be dragged into the light of day.

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essexbeancounterPosted on9:43 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Esteban says:

February 11, 2014 at 7:31 pm
Has your friend got a good explanation as to how his club managed to survive liquidation, or why public humiliation would be worse than liquidation?
==============================================================================
Esteban….please, in the name of all that is holy, a club, company, clumpany or any body corporate simply does not, cannot, and will not “survive” liquidation…it is in the process of being wound up, in accordance with the relevant Companies Acts…it really is simple, believe me dear fellow (I assume you are a fellow!)

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FisianiPosted on9:58 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Follow follow the money. This is not a normal company or club. This is asset stripping the likes of which have never been seen before. If more money can still be extracted from fans pockets and into the spivs pockets then the show will go on. I suspect Phil McG is on the money and that things will get dicey in the next few days. Quarter season tickets is a masterstroke. One last money grab from the gullible.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on10:04 pm - Feb 11, 2014


The problem with any discussion of the meaning of the word “club” in this context is that the football authorities do not use the word in the same way as Scots law does.

“Club” has a meaning in law. It means what you think it does – something like a golf club or a bowling club. Textbooks talk about the law of clubs and associations. It is impossible to be a club and a company – it has to be one or the other.

The football authorities can use the word “club” in their rules any way they want. They do not have to use it in the same way as Scots law uses it. But it is confusing if they don’t. And as far as I can see there isn’t really a definition at all. From memory they have nonsense along the lines of “Club” means a football club – or something meaningless like that.

Instead of using the word “club” (which has a proper legal meaning) it would have been intellectually more honest if they used the word “spirit” or “history” or “impervious and everlasting soul”. All frankly ludicrous terms but no less ludicrous than “club” in the context and a damn sight less confusing.

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timomousePosted on10:47 pm - Feb 11, 2014


http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/76352466547/how-much-money-do-rangers-have-left

On the £1.8m Rangers appear to be short of to be able to get to next season.

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coineanachantaighePosted on10:56 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Danish Pastry says:
February 11, 2014 at 8:45 pm
============================
Surely if the club as was deserved to go under, the answer is not to turn a blind eye but to let it go under and form a new, untainted version of that club? Unfortunately the chance to do that was thrown away, will there be another?

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fergussingsthebluesPosted on11:36 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Nearly 2 years on Friday, 14th Feb 2012. What have we learnt?

Actually, we’ve learnt plenty.

2 years is a long time!

What have we done?

Well, we’ve talked a lot!

So, what’s happened over the last 2 years?

Well, Whyte became Green, brown brogues became fashionable for a while, talk of “who has the deeds?”, a Guy leaves a good job at a tabloid paper to become comms director at a new club, a Guy quietly leaves his new dream post quietly as comms director at a new club, never to be heard of again.

There were a few top level investigations involving High Court Judges, talk of comprimising situations involving our very own President of The SFA, players being signed on well above average wages, despite the austerity apparently going on at that club, staying at 5 star hotels pre-games even recently.

Can someone please let me know WTF has been going on for the last 2 years, because I’m really struggling now to know how they got away with it!

Seriously, this has to be the biggest fraud ever undertaken in Scotland. Ever since admin/ liquidation in 2012, all I’ve seen is a bunch of people, including the present manager, fill their pockets!

It’s absolutely shameful how they have got away with it under the noses of people who should have stopped them right in their tracks 2 years ago!

2 years on, we’re still bringing up the same arguments. Somehow, I think we are ALL being duped here!

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ForresDeePosted on11:39 pm - Feb 11, 2014


i wrote this on Feb 2nd, nothing since has changed my mind.

ForresDee says:
February 2, 2014 at 6:20 pm

Evening all,

So the cash at ibrox is running dry, what will happen?

Nothing. That’s right, nothing.

The cash may run dry, but I don’t think for a minute that it will all just suddenly grind to a halt at Edminston Drive. It will all be hidden, deals will be done, they will get cash in but at a cost to be paid later. No admin but some players will leave by ‘mutual consent to further their first team opportunities elsewhere’.

Police Scotland and the Ambulance Service will still turn up through the many establishment contacts and other creditors will have to wait; until the early bird season tickets go on sale mid march, once the league has been won.

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nawlitePosted on11:49 pm - Feb 11, 2014


First chance to listen to the blog today – good job all round. It was a good listen and the content was as interesting as ever. Given all the recent discussion about wider engagement, however, I wonder how much it enhances our reach. I’m not demeaning the content or the effort, but it feels a bit like the aural equivalent of what we do on here….a lot of us saying the same things to an audience that by and large agrees with what is being said.

Some thoughts…..would there be merit in sending a podcast link to parties who might not hear it otherwise (or claim not to hear it otherwise) e.g. members of the MSM? members of the SFA/SPFL? Representatives of supporters clubs? Representatives of the clubs? Should we take it upon ourselves to (nicely) send it to RFC* fans we know and invite them to listen then check out the blog? I know there is danger in this as I firmly believe that most RFC* fans are still not prepared to debate the truth in any meaningful way, but…

One final thought, rather than have a podcast just talking among friends, is there a way to do something instead more like a ‘phone-in’? We slag the radio ones enough so might be able to better them. It could turn into carnage if it is focussed only on the rights and wrongs of the RFC* situation, but if focussed on the inadequacy/inertia/incompetence of our beloved authorities in everything they touch (governance/licensing/consistency/RFC*/grass roots development/the international team/Campbell Ogilvie), there could be common ground to raise a groundswell. I’m not sure how it could be publicised, produced, or indeed if any of us would be willing to ‘chair’ the gig but it might help pull others into the debate. would SC be willing to do something like this if it menat presiding over a forum which I imagine would slaughter the SFA?

apologies if this comes across as critical of the podcast – it’s not. Just thinking out loud.

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CastofthousandsPosted on11:55 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Fisiani says:
February 11, 2014 at 9:58 pm

” I suspect Phil McG is on the money and that things will get dicey in the next few days.”
————————
Phil MacGiolla Bhain has been a very important repository of information concerning Rangers travails over the last two years.He indicated (in recent tweets I recall) that he had an information source at the heart of Ibrox. There is a possibility someone could be attempting to poison his well. He has been a reliable sounding board so far and those at the centre of the obfuscation might feed him disinformation to dent his credibility.

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CastofthousandsPosted on11:59 pm - Feb 11, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:
February 11, 2014 at 10:04 pm

“The problem with any discussion of the meaning of the word “club” in this context is that the football authorities do not use the word in the same way as Scots law does. ”
——————————-
The LNS/SFA definition of club as having no legal personality does not accord with the definition of the international governing bodies of the game I understand.

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John ClarkPosted on12:27 am - Feb 12, 2014


fergussingstheblues says:
February 11, 2014 at 11:36 pm
‘….2 years on, we’re still bringing up the same arguments. Somehow, I think we are ALL being duped here!’
———–
No,no.
We are in the unfortunate position of having seen all too clearly what was happening, commendably making enough noise to influence our various club chairmen to prevent a complete absurdity (namely, the admission of Sevco into the then SPL), only to have to watch Longmuir and others bulldoze the SFL into accepting the new club into the bottom-most tier.

We had achieved some signal success.

Alas, the club chairmen’s resolve weakened, and ( it would seem) they accepted the 5-way agreement, instead of resisting the absurdity of the notion that RFC , in being liquidated, somehow did not cease to exist as a football club. They swallowed a part of their integrity and accepted the the ridiculous idea that all that had happened was a change of ownership of the same club.

And, of course, the lying sods working for the MSM ( and they know individually who they are) bent every effort to support the deceitful nonsense trotted out by the 6th floor as eagerly as they supported the string of liars and conmen who so successfully killed a football club for their own personal gain.

In my opinion.

Scottish Football was not duped. It has been assaulted and raped by beknighted bad bast.rds and their successors, while the Press looked on, salivating and leering.

And there is plenty of corroboration (not that in McAskill’s notion of justice there is any need for that!)

This whole saga was and is about a whole lot more than the death of an SME in a small country.

It’s about a determined effort to protect the corrupt by being even more basely corrupt.

Again, in my opinion.

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Billy BoycePosted on12:53 am - Feb 12, 2014


Tif Finn says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:16 pm
Quantcast
It is worth bearing in mind that businesses do not really “pay” VAT. They collect it on behalf of the Government and remit it when it is due. A company which does not have the money available to make it’s remittance has basically spent money which is not theirs and actually belongs to HMRC / the Government.
—————————————————————–
Similarly, Craig Whyte had PAYE and VAT resting in his account. As you say, the VAT is not TRFC/RIFC’s to do what they want with it. Workmen, firms and fans have paid VAT to the Ibrox institution in good faith as part of their charges and in the expectation that it would be subsequently remitted to The Taxman when due. Nobody likes to pay tax but it must be galling to discover that 20% of each bill has been stolen to keep the Famous Glasgow Rangers on life support.

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Danish PastryPosted on2:13 am - Feb 12, 2014


Castofthousands on February 11, 2014 at 11:55 pm
8 2 Rate This
———–

Phil seems now to be indicating that things are currently too fluid to be able to predict anything with certainty.

Tomorrow’s back pages at this early hour are all about ‘trebles’ and AM as manager of the year — now that was predictable 🙂

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Exiled CeltPosted on2:30 am - Feb 12, 2014


How about this for your morning news………….

FIFA Updates ‏@FIFAupdates · 1h
Scottish football abandons plans to automatically relegate clubs in administration: New punishment for clubs i… http://bit.ly/1g4B16U

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AuldheidPosted on2:54 am - Feb 12, 2014


Barcabhoy says:

February 11, 2014 at 7:10 pm

Who would ever have thought it would get to this point?

Whilst I have advocated forgiveness as a way of moving forward, perhaps the problem is not that it is not the forgiveness of others they need but the forgiveness of themselves?

Perhaps the guilt feels so great at the enormity of the damage they have done to themselves never mind others, it is just too terrible to face?

Perhaps they have put themselves beyond redemption?

The silence you speak of suggests so.

I will not post a discussion I had with someone from The International Forgiveness Institute about Self Forgiveness but it is at this link for anyone interested in the concept.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B62m3ggkEX2RdF9xVFNfeGNENnc/edit?usp=sharing

who can always PM me.

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AuldheidPosted on3:05 am - Feb 12, 2014


Exiled Celt says:

February 12, 2014 at 2:30 am

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How about this for your morning news………….

FIFA Updates ‏@FIFAupdates · 1h
Scottish football abandons plans to automatically relegate clubs in administration: New punishment for clubs i… http://bit.ly/1g4B16U
===============
Read it.

A Big Mistake I think.

I can accept not relegating but not the SPFL Board deciding a club’s fate with nothing but their discretion at play.

If it is a bottom tier club its is simple make promotion impossible until three years have elapsed or boot them out.

You cannot fix a problem etc etc.,

I wonder what lenders to football will think of this? How high will the borrowing rate be?

It will only be acceptable to them if financial monitoring (i.e. licencing) is much tighter, prevention being better than cure.

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on6:49 am - Feb 12, 2014


In regard to the Telegraph article, was there any kind of vote on this proposal?
What would be the issue with relegating a club who went into administration. It appears to be no issue with a team being promoted who had gone into administration.

The changes now appear to allow a club to go into liquidation, keep its membership and remain in whichever league they are currently playing in.

It appears to me that the financial situation that Trfc are currently in, may have been expected and rules drawn up to ensure the continuation of one club.

IMO, anyone who still thinks that football is a sport, that integrity and honesty are part of it, needs to seriously have a re-think and waken up to what has and continues to take place.

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readceltPosted on6:49 am - Feb 12, 2014


Exiled Celt says:
February 12, 2014 at 2:30 am
3 0 Rate This

How about this for your morning news………….

FIFA Updates ‏@FIFAupdates · 1h
Scottish football abandons plans to automatically relegate clubs in administration: New punishment for clubs i… http://bit.ly/1g4B16U
——————————————————————-
As that stumbling block has been dealt with I would expect admin by the end of the week.

A valentines day massacre of the staff and payroll.

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FIFAPosted on6:50 am - Feb 12, 2014


This partial season book stunt is another spiv idea ,its not about getting the present side playing out of Ibrox to the end of the season,its about them getting next seasons money as well ,their greed will out them ,they know their departure route is not 100% safe and need more time to make this safe,but while they hang on they want to strip the carcass of what is usually [see what I done there]left for the scavengers,they know where the buffers are to be hit their only fear is that there is a side on from some interfering body that they cant swerve,we need the side on .

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upthehoopsPosted on7:17 am - Feb 12, 2014


nowoldandgrumpy says:
February 12, 2014 at 6:49 am
0 0 Rate This

In regard to the Telegraph article, was there any kind of vote on this proposal?
================================================
Exactly. It appears rules are now in place to stop fans preventing their clubs treating a newco in a favourable manner. Instead it will now be up to the sole discretion of the SPFL board. Well, they better tread very carefully with that one because they are effectively saying what fans think doesn’t matter at all, at any time, no matter how much a club has cheated.

This morning you could be mistaken for believing the sun is beginning to shine on a downtrodden Rangers. The treble is on and Ally is being touted for manager of the year. Meanwhile over at Celtic Park there is nothing to look forward to ever at any time, with the club at a terribly low ebb. Aberdeen might have something to look forward to but Rangers are looming so that will put paid to that. The rest of the clubs in the Scottish Cup also appear to have nothing to look forward to. Perhaps if those vindictive fans had not cruelly forced their clubs to deny the newco its place at the top the sun would be shining every morning!

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fergusslayedthebluesPosted on7:25 am - Feb 12, 2014


Re Telegraph article
That about does it for me ,our game is now a sport in name only and the rules now in place are nothing short of a CHEATS CHARTER . 🙁

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on7:33 am - Feb 12, 2014


neepheid says:

Barcabhoy says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:10 pm

I want neither, although I thought title stripping would have been appropriate, but that moment has passed . His fear though is that the public humiliation, even deserved , would kill his club. Maybe he is right, and if he is then of course any Rangers supporter would be correct to resist that at all costs.

——————————————————————————————————————————–

Knowing like we do without proof (as so far all sorts of lies and strange decisions have aided them) is a hard thing to accept,. Worse for me is to know that there is proof and NOTHING again is being done just sickens me to the core. Why are they to big to fail. Why do we have to accept the utter absurdity that they are the same club. What is the fear deeply embedded in Scotland that allows this level of corruption to live on? I know I have done all I can with the limited knowledge I have to seek justice, why cannot everyone do the same? If someone has the proof of wrong doing forget the consequences that people will suffer as they had no thought for any of us. That is wrong and things will only become worse and they then have won. IMO under SDM they tried to kill my club, now they are killing the whole of Scottish football and are been allowed to.

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AyeRightNawPosted on8:06 am - Feb 12, 2014


For all its faults the SFA has consistently treated the club operating out of Ibrox as a new entity. Today’s news that there are to be no new sanctions for clubs going into administration means that the only official consequence of the much trailed failure by TRFC to control costs will be a 15 point penalty.

TRFC can easily cope with that now and still progress to the Championship. So why don’t they?

My ill-informed guess is that it is the difficulties surrounding issues such as player contracts, individuals ability to serve as Directors, future creditor confidence and refinancing that explain the hesitation regarding administration.

There might also be some serious doubt about the ability of TRFC to be out of admin by the time the new season starts.

It is clear that the new club continued the tradition established by its predecessor of living beyond its means and buying players it can’t afford.

The sporting advantage is clear – two league titles bought.

How many more will there be before other clubs finally act to restore some integrity to our game?

I’m not holding my breath so I expect it will be down to fan power to once again force our clubs and the governing bodies to act.

Are we up for the fight? I hope so.

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FisianiPosted on8:19 am - Feb 12, 2014


I check in twice a day for news of events in Scottish football. News breaks faster here than anywhere else on the internet. Of course Hugh Keevins will always shamelessly claim after the event that he has been telling you for years. It is soap opera in real life. Next week’s instalment will be fascinating.

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ForresDeePosted on8:20 am - Feb 12, 2014


Re the telegraph article, is this the final piece of the puzzle in place?

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BrendaPosted on8:28 am - Feb 12, 2014


AyeRightNaw

You are absolutely spot on in my opinion and the only way we the fans can have any impact is by hitting the teams and sfa in the pocket by not spending our hard earned (taxed) cash on season tickets, merchandise etc. My household bit the bullet last year and stopped buying 4 season tickets, ( not much of an impact ) it hurt and although we still support our team in our hearts I’m sorry but cheats and liars disgust me in any walk of life, I could no longer be a part of the con 😥
Karma us fairly taking her time with this lot sadly

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AyeRightNawPosted on8:43 am - Feb 12, 2014


Cheers Brenda

it is a terrible pity that you felt you had to take such action.

I have limited my own boycott to the SFA – cup semis and finals and the national team have all become no go areas for me and my family.

Depending on how things play out in the coming months I will have to consider whether to withdraw my financial support for my own team.

Shame on the SFA and the clubs that it should come to this.

Enough is enough though. Why should I use my taxed income to support a game where every unchecked move is made in favour of those who avoid tax and reap sporting advantage from doing so.

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y4rmyPosted on9:22 am - Feb 12, 2014


I don’t know what the rules up North are (and let’s face it, they’ve been shown to be malleable enough to allow for anything), but down here it is at the discretion of the Football League as to when the points deduction for entering administration is imposed. For example, if a club were a mile ahead at the top of the table or safe in a play-off spot and a points deduction would have no effect on the outcome, the penalty would be applied the next season.
Neil Doncaster was CEO of NCFC and also served as an FA committee member, most notably on the panel that applied points deductions to Luton Town, so he will be more than aware of the detail and motivation for the discretionary rule. If such a rule doesn’t exist in Scotland, you’d have to ask why.

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Danish PastryPosted on9:26 am - Feb 12, 2014


fergusslayedtheblues says:
February 12, 2014 at 7:25 am
21 0 Rate This

Re Telegraph article
That about does it for me ,our game is now a sport in name only and the rules now in place are nothing short of a CHEATS CHARTER .
——————-

Much about modern football is hard to stomach. If it was my one sporting passion I doubt I would be able to support it anymore. At the higher professional levels, not only in Scotland, there is so much that duz ma heid in.

It helps to be involved in other sports. My own number one passion, as both player and spectator, is not football and hasn’t been for a very long time. Funnily enough the regional tennis leagues I take part in are outrageously strict when it comes to rules. Although it’s amateur sport, clubs are deducted points and expelled for fieldng ineligible players, bad behaviour, and the like. Another interest of mine, cycling, is in a battle for survival after years of organized doping and damage done by some bosses who looked the other way, and worse. But something IS at least being done. The punters do not like an uneven road or dodgy line calls. Sponsors do not want to be associated with cheating. An interest in other sports certainly helps put football in context.

I support my local team in the Inn of Seventh Diddiness, it’s real, honest-to-goodness fitba. As it’s a small town, it suffers the same fate as all clubs from smaller towns — any really promising players are quickly poached by teams from higher leagues. It’s no different from any division in any country. But I’d still say that, as things stand, community is more authentic than corporate, when it comes to football.

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SmugasPosted on9:54 am - Feb 12, 2014


from the Telegraph article.

“Also, if a club wins promotion and then suffers an insolvency event, do we simply refuse to promote them or do we relegate them from the division which they have just been playing in?

Yes to question 1. I cannot think of any instances where you wouldn’t (but see below) and I would go with the clubs majority view on the 2nd.

The only possibility I could see where this would not be the case would be where administration had been brought about by some 3rd party factor, that, in itself, had had no bearing on the playing results. To choose a prevalent example at present – say Dunfermline went on a winning run and grabbed 1st place on the last day of the season, only for East End Park to disappear into a sinkhole in the excitement and the insurers to say “sorry mate, act of god.” I could understand their arguement why failure to promote would be unfair – but I still wouldn’t necessarily automatically promote them, fair or not.

Newco’ing being at the boards discretion is fair enough. A simple rule though – To newco and shed debt equals no prmotion. How’s that?

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FinlochPosted on9:55 am - Feb 12, 2014


The Telegraph stuff, if true, is quite shocking but not surprising.
Shocking in the power the cabal seem to have.
Shocking in the complicity of the clubs, – Our Clubs!!

But not surprising at all.

The cabal knew and still know they bent their own rules to save the blue club.
They know that under honest governance they’d not have been able to play their 5 way agreement gambit.
All the world’s greatest football administrator and his pals are doing is ensuring they can do what they like and do it while avoiding breaking their own rules in the future.

Power corrupts.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on10:10 am - Feb 12, 2014


Smugas says:
February 12, 2014 at 9:54 am

from the Telegraph article.

“Also, if a club wins promotion and then suffers an insolvency event, do we simply refuse to promote them or do we relegate them from the division which they have just been playing in?
—————————————————————————————————————————————-

I fail to see why the two issues have to be conflated by the authorities. It is simply muddled-thinking.

Whatever else might happen by way of punishment – there should be no promotion if an insolvency event occurs. An insolvency event should be a bar to promotion. It is very simple to write down, it is very simple to implement and it is very simple to explain the rationale for such a rule.

Relegating a team that otherwise would have won promotion might look like a double punishment. It might indeed actually be a double punishment. However, because one (but only one) of the possible alternatives might be viewed as a double punishment is not a valid reason not to have an automatic bar to promotion.

For goodness sake – this is not difficult stuff.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on10:18 am - Feb 12, 2014


ForresDee says:
February 12, 2014 at 8:20 am
8 0 Rate This

Re the telegraph article, is this the final piece of the puzzle in place?
======================
Oh yes. The path of “the journey” has been cleared, any and all obstacles swept aside, doubtless with the able assistance of Ogilvie and that big brush of his.

It must,of course, be pure coincidence that these decisions come at a time when the “establishment club” is flirting with insolvency. But let me be cynical just for once and suggest that if “Rangers” had been in a state of glowing financial good health, then the proposal would have received the unanimous support of all concerned.

I can’t help but link this piece of news to yesterday’s shock horror announcement that if you play for Ayr and gamble on games, you get double the punishment than if you play for “Rangers”. At this point I was going to say something wholly inappropriate about Ogilvie repaying his EBT loan, but I don’t want to cause TSFM problems, so I’ll keep that thought to myself.

I will say that the existence of an interest free, never to be repaid (in cash, anyway) loan, awarded at the behest of Sir David Murray to the person who is currently the SFA president, would be utterly unacceptable in any country other than Scotland. It is, in my opinion, indicative of the character of the individual that he even let himself be put forward for election to the post in those circumstances.

We were even informed two years ago by the CEO of the SFA that the President was “conflicted”. So what has been done about this clear conflict of interest? We are, I think, entitled to know. Why are the SMSM not all over this on our behalf? That much we know already, I think. And what did our beloved clubs do about it ? Yes, that’s right, they re-elected him for another two years of conflicted presidency. The word despair doesn’t come near to doing my feelings justice. Rage would be more accurate.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on10:22 am - Feb 12, 2014


fergusslayedtheblues says:
February 12, 2014 at 7:25 am
44 1 Rate This

Re Telegraph article
That about does it for me ,our game is now a sport in name only and the rules now in place are nothing short of a CHEATS CHARTER . 🙁

=======================================

not singling you out fergus, but your post was teh shortest

seen a few posts/tweets along this line.

I’m reminded a bit of the chicken licken story – oh no, the sky is falling

however, isn’t this story simply saying “no changes to the rules”

they are not changing an existing rule, they are just not brining in a new one.

Now, that might be a bad thing, because the new rule was quite good. but really, we are no better/worse off.

and if i remember correctly, last time a liquidated club asked the SPL to let them in, they were told to feck off and had to go to the SFL who did them a massive favour by letting them into the bottom of the division.

Whilst i’m not sure if administration should lead to AUTOMATIC relegation – the situation with hearts being a good example as it was the owners problems that dragged them down – i certainly feel that there should be no promotion or UEFA participation for any clubs who go into admin.

I think there is a case for every situation being rtreated on it’s merits, but there needs to be very harsh punishments and stronger financial controls put in place.

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wottpiPosted on10:37 am - Feb 12, 2014


RyanGosling says:
February 11, 2014 at 8:30 pm

I was chased by wottpi yesterday also for not answering posts but unfortunately I didn’t have time to go through and comment on every post I’d like to.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ryan, if I recall correctly I lumped you in with Greennock Jack as being the two Rangers fans who had posted.

You are quite right that it is presumptuous of me to expect everyone to drop what they are doing to answer my, or anyone elses post.

You did me the honour of responding to some of the issues raised and I thank you for that.

GJ on the other hand appears to be able to send flurries of posts when it suits him but like so many before ducks out when asked the questions I put. You will note I am still waiting for a response to the original post that was sent in his direction. My questions to you were more of a follow up when you joined the debate later in the day.

Apologies is you felt ‘chased’ but given there are so few Rangers fans contributing to the site and so much has changed over the last few weeks perhaps you can understand my desire to get some form of response when Rangers fans involvement or lack thereof on TSFM was that day’s hot topic.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on10:38 am - Feb 12, 2014


Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:22 am
0 0 Rate This

fergusslayedtheblues says:
February 12, 2014 at 7:25 am

however, isn’t this story simply saying “no changes to the rules”
==========================================
I disagree. From the article-
“It has also been agreed that, in future, the SPFL Board will have the sole responsibility for adjudication regarding clubs who might face liquidation.
“It will be down to the board to determine any conditions for a transfer of membership if a club is liquidated and attempts to go down the newco route,” said the source.”

That is, I think, a change to the existing rules, or at least to the existing procedures. And a very significant change. The clubs can in future hide behind the board, and so completely ignore the feelings of their fans. What the clubs are seeking to avoid at any cost is a repeat of the events of summer 2012, when they had to stand up and be counted in a transparent manner. They did not like that one little bit. Transparency is their enemy, They much prefer their grubby deals to be done in private.

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John ClarkPosted on10:39 am - Feb 12, 2014


Does any Scottish newspaper carry the Telegraph’s story?

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rabtdogPosted on10:41 am - Feb 12, 2014


It’s disappointing that clubs across Scotland failed to get their heads round a fairly simple idea. If a club playing in a specific division of the SPFL during a defined season goes into administration, they will be automatically relegated to the division below. This is because they accrued an advantage *in that season* that wasn’t underpinned by their fanbase/borrowing facilities/commercial income/other income. In the case of League 2 clubs, the penalty would be a bar on promotion for the following season.
Example: a Championship club spends beyond its means, wins the division then goes into admin at 5pm on the last Saturday of the season. The following season they would be relegated from the Championship to League 1.
A junior lawyer could draw you up a watertight document on this, for the rulebook, over a carton of soup at Pret. Football club representatives however, according to the Telegraph, shook their heads and said, ‘Aye, it’s gey complicated. Let’s nae.’

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on10:46 am - Feb 12, 2014


And so it continues. With reports of an impending administration at TRFC gaining impetus, the football authorities decide to ease off on their proposals to get tough. It’s a good job they’ve been so honest and open in their dealings with TRFC previously, or we’d be suspecting some connection between the two events. Still, another message has been sent out to any would be TRFC saviour; ‘help is at hand, whatever the future holds’.

It matters not what skewed justifications they publish, we will never believe them, for that is the legacy they have created. Sadly, however capable the people running our game may once have been, as individuals(before coming to our game), they’ve allowed their sense of right and wrong to be replaced by the corruption of the need to keep a ‘Scottish institution’ alive, rather than to administer the game ‘without fear or favour’, or even a modicum of justice.

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Gee69

Gee69Posted on10:50 am - Feb 12, 2014


I’ve emailed my club for their views on this shambles, and given them my tuppenceworth.

Oh, and for the record, you can add Dumbarton to the list of clubs represented by TSFM.

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John ClarkPosted on10:53 am - Feb 12, 2014


neepheid says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:38 am
‘…..The clubs can in future hide behind the board, and so completely ignore the feelings of their fans.’
———–
They will die, as surely as RFC.

Are the SPFL members so blind, so vilely snared by the glittering, threatening eye of one ,just one, of their members that they are prepared to cut their own throats in self-sacrifice to save it?

What kind of craven people ARE they that will deal with ‘default’ by deciding not to deal with it as it deserves to be dealt with, for fear of offending a big bullying bast.rd in their midst?

Chamberlain’s appeasement of the nazi .un was disgraceful.

The appeasing mentality of our SPFL people is of the same order of nauseating, shameful and shaming behaviour.

A pox upon them.

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on11:14 am - Feb 12, 2014


john clarke says:

February 12, 2014 at 10:53 am

Sadly, John, I fear many will have been moved by self interest in their decision, for, with three major clubs already having faced insolvency, and a fourth apparently on the brink, not many chairmen could sit back and think ‘it won’t happen to us’. Turkeys voting for Xmas again! I imagine the idea that administration meaning automatic relegation, however fitting, would be a clincher for them rather than the idea of no promotion; for, in most cases (bar one club) the points deduction would take care of that injustice.

As I said in my previous post, it’s the previous actions, and inactions, of the football authorities when dealing with all things tinged with Rangersness, that will continue to raise the spectre of ‘fear and favour’, rather than the continuation of self interest within the ranks of football club chairmen. Perhaps, though, this was the reason for including relegation as a penalty rather than just ‘no promotion’, knowing the fears of the majority would assist the ‘favoured one’. It’s a good way to get the result you want while looking like you are genuinely trying to clean up the game!

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gedk17Posted on11:18 am - Feb 12, 2014


So Many Potential Despots
Peom by Francis Duggan
Hits the nail on the head !

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rougvielovesthejunglePosted on11:21 am - Feb 12, 2014


Totally off topic but,
I was listening to Sportsound on the BBC last night and they were doing a feature on the good doctor (Deuchar) signing for Arbroath until the end of the season.

Surely I wasn’t the only one hoping that Spencey would close the piece with the immortal line;
“Scottish fitba needs a strong Arbroath”

(c) Red Lichtie

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on11:22 am - Feb 12, 2014


neepheid says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:38 am
5 0 i
Rate This

Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:22 am
0 0 Rate This

fergusslayedtheblues says:
February 12, 2014 at 7:25 am

however, isn’t this story simply saying “no changes to the rules”
==========================================
I disagree. From the article-
“It has also been agreed that, in future, the SPFL Board will have the sole responsibility for adjudication regarding clubs who might face liquidation.
“It will be down to the board to determine any conditions for a transfer of membership if a club is liquidated and attempts to go down the newco route,” said the source.”

That is, I think, a change to the existing rules, or at least to the existing procedures. And a very significant change. The clubs can in future hide behind the board, and so completely ignore the feelings of their fans. What the clubs are seeking to avoid at any cost is a repeat of the events of summer 2012, when they had to stand up and be counted in a transparent manner. They did not like that one little bit. Transparency is their enemy, They much prefer their grubby deals to be done in private.

——————————————————————————————————————————————

I have mentioned Article 36 of the SPFL Articles before.

This is the one that deals with allowing newcos in.

So what is being reported is not, I think, a change to the rules (at least not a change to the rules now) but is rather reflecting the rules as they have applied from the inception of the SPFL (which rules are different from the rules that applied at the time RFC 2012 suffered its insolvency).

The old rules did not allow for a newco situation (hence the need for a 5-way agreement). The new rules do allow for this – they give the SPFL board discretion to set conditions and decide in which division a newco will play. In effect I read it as saying that if the SPFL Board want to do another 5-way agreement at some future point, they can.

Of course one way of looking at this is to say that the last time they did this – they didn’t have power to do it.

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wottpiPosted on11:22 am - Feb 12, 2014


Re the Telegraph article.

It is not so much the kicking the ‘relegation for administration’ idea into touch that bugs me it is once again the tone of the responses and the justification for non-action that seems to treat the fans as being morons.

The SPFL and the SFA are organisations that can organise and co-ordinate league and football cup competitions involving a multitude of teams of varying standards and arranging games and fixtures season after season. This involves rescheduling due to draws in cup games and cancellations from weather etc etc.

How they apparently find difficulty in saying if ‘A’ happens then we would do ‘B’ is unbelievable, especially given all the lawyers and business folks involved in the game.

As an aside I note that the article included the following in relation to clubs that may go into administration:-

“That may include any new owners posting a bond for security.”

I posted on RTC ages ago that Livingston were hit by such a bond (£720k) by the SFL, however there was never any mention of SEVCO/T’Rangers having to post a similar bond to help protect the SFL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/livingston/8184564.stm

Now it is looks like being the bond back on the agenda.

Once again a ‘rule’ or condition that was applied to some but apparently not to others when it suited.

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sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolisPosted on11:23 am - Feb 12, 2014


SPFL Sanctions for clubs suffering an insolvency event.

I agree with most posters that the decisions by SPFL clubs reported in The Telegraph are regretably another missed opportunity for fairness and sporting integrity of our game.

I see no reason why the SPFL Board and its Officers could not come up with separate draft rules on relegation for the 3 top disions and its bottom division. The rule for the bottom division could be “transitional” pendng the excpected promotion and relegation to/from The Highland/Lowland Leagues from 2014/45 season.

Additionally, the conflation of relegation and/or a bar on promotion is a further cause for our concern.

I think that promotion of the adoption of a simple new SPFL Rule based on the following suggestion by Campbellsmoney says: February 12, 2014 at 10:10 am has obvious merits too.

“An insolvency event should be a bar to promotion.”

Can any of us more familiar with drafting Constitutions and Rules come up with suggested wordings?

Could and should the above be priority campaigns for TSFM in liaison with shareholder supporters of clubs, clubs’ Supporters Associations / online communities and Supporters Direct Scotland?

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ecobhoyPosted on11:33 am - Feb 12, 2014


neepheid says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:38 am

I think, a change to the existing rules, or at least to the existing procedures. And a very significant change. The clubs can in future hide behind the board, and so completely ignore the feelings of their fans. What the clubs are seeking to avoid at any cost is a repeat of the events of summer 2012, when they had to stand up and be counted in a transparent manner. They did not like that one little bit. Transparency is their enemy, They much prefer their grubby deals to be done in private.
==================================================
Nail on head! They were exposed to fan pressure last time and didn’t like it. But they knew with the financial shambles of a Rangers still spending recklessly beyond their means it would probably end-up back in an admin/liquidation scenario.

Walking by on the other side of the moral highway with eyes averted means they can wash their hands of any responsibility no matter what. They will sympathise with fans who complain but blame the Board of the SPFL, the SFA and everyone they can think of.

However it boils down to cowardice and the hope fans will swallow it – they won’t and many won’t walk away from their club and I am one of them. So we have to become better at getting our message across. We must have the belief that eventually Scottish Football can only be saved if those in charge are honest and their decision-making is not only transparent but takes account of the wishes of fans without whom the game will inevitably die.

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Esteban

EstebanPosted on11:36 am - Feb 12, 2014


john clarke says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:53 am

“Are the SPFL members so blind, so vilely snared by the glittering, threatening eye of one ,just one, of their members that they are prepared to cut their own throats in self-sacrifice to save it?”

Some at the top of our game’s administration clearly have shown themselves prepared to fall on their swords for the cause, but haven’t needed to. David Longmuir took a golden haunshake because, with the creation of the SPFL, two jobs became one and Neil Doncaster got it. Sandy Bryson continues to work away somewhere on the sixth floor, possibly never to be heard of again, safe in the knowledge that even most internet bampots could not pick him out for a haranguing in a roomful of Sandy Brysons. Campbell Ogilvie remains in situ and, Graham Spiers assures us, is a really nice person.

It’s not so black and white, though. Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan are not cut from the same cloth. Their commitment is to a different cause: that of making Scottish football as ‘big’ as possible to make their roles as important as possible, presumably in preparation for even more important roles elsewhere in sports administration (does Regan even like football?).

This is sitting on the fence, but I can’t make my mind up about which of these Waldorfs of useless muppets is the more reprehensible and I would have to call it a dishonourable draw.

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John ClarkPosted on11:43 am - Feb 12, 2014


Allyjambo says:
February 12, 2014 at 11:14 am
sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolis says:
February 12, 2014 at 11:23 am
————-
It’s at times like these that anonymity can be a handicap.

But let’s all of us write /email/ fax.phone/tweet or use a doo to send a message
a) to our own CEOs/Chairmen
b) to the SPFL and SFA
to leave them in no doubt that tampering with or altering the rules to avoid penalising one club which is likely to deserve sanction before long is simply not acceptable to us, the supporters, without whom their individual clubs and Scottish Football are nothing.

We smell yet another rat, and all the sophistry in the world will not make it go away.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on11:54 am - Feb 12, 2014


neepheid says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:38 am
12 0 Rate This

Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:22 am
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fergusslayedtheblues says:
February 12, 2014 at 7:25 am

however, isn’t this story simply saying “no changes to the rules”
==========================================
I disagree. From the article-
“It has also been agreed that, in future, the SPFL Board will have the sole responsibility for adjudication regarding clubs who might face liquidation.
“It will be down to the board to determine any conditions for a transfer of membership if a club is liquidated and attempts to go down the newco route,” said the source.”

That is, I think, a change to the existing rules, or at least to the existing procedures. And a very significant change. The clubs can in future hide behind the board, and so completely ignore the feelings of their fans. What the clubs are seeking to avoid at any cost is a repeat of the events of summer 2012, when they had to stand up and be counted in a transparent manner. They did not like that one little bit. Transparency is their enemy, They much prefer their grubby deals to be done in private.

==========================================

maybe you are right, can’t remember exactly….i seem to recall that a club going into liquidation is IMMEDIATELY and without discussion out of the SPFL (i am referring of course to the rules when it was the SPL and SFL)

So, upon going into admin, points penalty, liquidation – loss of SPFL membership

then it is up to a newco to apply for entry

i’m sure the old rules meant this had to be decided by the board – however the board cacked it and asked all member clubs to vote.

i think the sfl rules required all members to vote – which they did.

I’m just not convinced we are actually seeing anything other than a rejection of a proposal. As things stand, we are pretty much where we are.

Of course, fan power won out the last time, so as season ticket renewals is soon to be upon us, and we KNOW what they (RFC/Sevco/SFA/SPL and the clubs) tried to do last time…it might be a good idea for fans to contact their clubs and let them know of their dismay at this development, their anger that a team can win a league/division then go into admin, shedding debts/contracts/promises and still be rewarded on the park to the detriment of honest teams who lived within their means.

The threat of a loss of ticket sales might be enough for them to think again.

I’m afraid the time is upon us bampots to force the changes that the “governing bodies” refuse to implement.

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on12:07 pm - Feb 12, 2014


john clarke says:

February 12, 2014 at 11:43 am

I had thought of that, and have written to my own club previously regarding the disgraces we’ve witnessed. Sadly I doubt there’s too much interest in such matters there at the moment with the matter of survival, and with things being run by people who won’t be around for much longer, I hope, to make me feel much attention would be paid to my concerns. But rest assured, once my club is in the hands ‘of the fans’ (sorry should be saying ‘should my club move into fan ownership’, don’t want to tempt fate, I will be writing as a member of FoH to make my feelings known and my intention to withdraw my financial support if I see evidence of them ignoring the fans’ wishes for the benefit of a ‘Scottish institution’, or any one club being favoured. We’ve all suffered enough from cheating in the past to sit idly by and watch it continue.

Writing to the SFA/SPFL on the other hand, will be done tomorrow, got more free time without distractions, along the lines you suggest. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it will be ignored, but it can do no harm to let them know we are watching them, and that I wouldn’t believe them if they told me today was Wednesday (it is Wednesday, isn’t it? 😯 ).

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