Our First podcast features a general discussion involving our own Big Pink and Auldheid.
Since it is the first podcast there is no particular agenda save for a general chat about TSFM, the state of Scottish Football, and some few reminiscences. The chat covers a lot of ground, but establishes the ethos of the blog pretty well.
Topics discussed include FPP, Leadership, Interdependence, Scotland’s self-regard, Coaching and Nurturing of Talent, Redistribution of Income, Rangers, Forgiveness, domestic strife đ
The interview was conducted a couple of days before the latest round of Armageddon, when Big Pink and Auldheid felt safe and well đ
The link below is to the iTunes store page for our Podcasts. If you go there, you can subscribe to the podcast (on your PC or iPhone) and new episodes will automatically be sent to you.
Since we have just been approved for a spot on iTunes, the iTunes search side of things may not work properly for a day or so.
Bawsman says:
February 11, 2014 at 8:50 pm
I am staggered that our press have not hounded CO out of officeâŚâŚand the people who prop him up.
____________________________________________________________________________________
I would be staggered if they did…
Drafting the “no promotion” rule would not be difficult.
“If an Insolvency Event occurs to a “Club” in the Championship, Division One or Division Two, the points deduction shall be the greater of :-
(i) the deduction(s) specified in Rules E1-E6; and
(ii) such points deduction as shall be necessary to place such “Club”, at the end of the relevant Season, in the league rankings two positions below the lowest ranked “Club” in its Division that (but for the application of this Rule) would be eligible to participate in a Play Off Competition.”
That would be one way of doing it for the lower divisions. if I had longer to devote to this I would draft also to take account of the fact that more than one “Club” might suffer an Insolvency Event in any given Season.
Easy to draft for the top division also depending upon whether or not you just ban them from winning it or from also qualifying for Europe. If we wanted to, we could also debar them from the top six “bonanza”.
Drafting isn’t the hard bit. Getting them to agree to the principle is the hard bit because I think that they must know what the rule should be. They just don’t want it to apply to those that they don’t want it to apply to.
[Edited to correct “ponts” to “points” – am not building bridges after all]
Amongst all the chat about potential SFA or SPFL rule changes we are overlooking the most important rule of all.
“If any other rule adversely affects the financial situation or the ability of any ‘club’ based in Ibrox to proceed unhindered back to the pinnacle of Scottish football, where they rightly belong, then that rule will be ignored, broken, rewritten or otherwise disregarded even if this is to the determent of all of the other clubs playing in Scotland and to Scottish football as a whole”
As you where.
Allyjambo says:
February 12, 2014 at 12:07 pm
“I wouldnât believe them if they told me today was Wednesday (it is Wednesday, isnât it? ”
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It depends where you are and where they are. Its Thursday here in Samoa.
Some seem to think that the “rules” below give the SPFL latitude to do whatever they like – designed especially to benefit their favoured club. I see it as craven cowardice. They simply want to be able to do whatever is expedient in any situation – never upholding a principle – never standing by a rule – never exposing themselves to the wishes of the fans – never subjecting themselves to the randomness of a club vote – never being held to the logic of precedent – never doing anything that might cause them discomfort.
If you think this is good news for The Rangers – think again – because The Rangers face a very rocky road – and as soon as they become both inconvenient and of inconsequential commercial value to the SPFL – they will be set adrift in favour of a more convenient solution. The SPFL have just washed their hands of The Rangers. They don’t plan to go through 2012 again, thank you very much, look at the thanks we got from Ibrox for our efforts on their behalf.
âIt has also been agreed that, in future, the SPFL Board will have the sole responsibility for adjudication regarding clubs who might face liquidation.
âIt will be down to the board to determine any conditions for a transfer of membership if a club is liquidated and attempts to go down the newco route,â said the source.â
Campbellsmoney says:
February 12, 2014 at 12:25 pm
Thanks for letting us know it’s Thursday where you are, and that you are in Samoa, jammy beggar! It’s p*ssing it down here in Derbyshire and bl**dy freezing đ
john clarke says:
February 11, 2014 at 9:36 pm
70 1 Rate This
Carntyne says:
February 11, 2014 at 8:41 pm
âŚ.âWe are the same clubâ claims only apply to keeping the history. đ
ââââ
And that is the unbelievable mess the SFA got into, dealing with two quite separate football clubs round the same table , trying to transmigrate the soul of one into the body of the other! And blaming the second body for some (and only some) of the offences of the lifeless corpse.
Meantime, though, BDO are still quietly investigating, and we live in some hope that something of the real rottenness of the whole foul chapter in Scottish football and wider social history will be dragged into the light of day.
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As the drama of the last three years unfolded, just like everybody else I could not believe not only what was happening on a daily basis, but also the response to the scandal, of the media, football authorities, and the judiciary.
Rangers,(then) and Sevco,(now) managed to wriggle and squiggle their way through the mess.
What happened to them wasn’t pleasant, but nothing near to what should have happened.
For that reason I have no faith in BDO, the UTTT, or anyone else, bringing down the hatchet on Rangers 2.
The only thing that might prevent Third Rangers is total financial insolvency.
And I wouldn’t bet on that either.
@mcfc
‘If you think this is good news for The Rangers â think again â because The Rangers face a very rocky road â and as soon as they become both inconvenient and of inconsequential commercial value to the SPFL â they will be set adrift in favour of a more convenient solution. The SPFL have just washed their hands of The Rangers. They donât plan to go through 2012 again, thank you very much, look at the thanks we got from Ibrox for our efforts on their behalf.’
In the case of any other ‘Club’ bar Celtic, I would agree with your comments. However, The Rangers will never be ‘of inconsequential commercial value’ to the SPFL due to the size of their fanbase.
May have missed comment but, for a change, Radio 5’s 606 on Saturday had a brief look at Scottish football. Podcast link below. I think the north of the border chat is around 45m-59m mark.
Opens up with a Trojan Horse call from a Celtic fan, who ranks his team as rotten before promoting Roll of Honour download. Rightly cut off. Depressingly, this fan elevates the cultural baggage above the football, seeming more concerned about GB promotion than the quality of team on the park or stewardship of the club in the boardroom.
Equally depressing is the uninformed observations of co-hosts, Savage and Fletcher. Thankfully, an Aberdeen supporter contributes some insight and balance, not just from the perspective of his team’s success but the progress of other clubs in the absence of the Ibrox club.
Most depressing was a comment the following day (I think from Fletcher) about what a great debate they’d had about Scottish football. Maybe some opportunity to follow up in the coming Saturday’s 606?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/606
As it has been said before many times on here and previously on RTC our poor excuse for a football association has let the majority of the clubs down and supported ‘the team that plays from ibrox’ in every possible way that they can????? Granted the new co/club didn’t get it all their own way but as it was plain to see got a helping hand/ leg up from the sfa ???? Why??? It probably won’t happen but the only way to get any action is to halt payments, that may spur our own spineless clubs into some action, scottish football is dying on it’s arse mainly because of one maybe two clubs ( rfc and sevco) and things like the 5 way agreement it’s not sport it’s a carve up and a con, and the whole thing should be investigated thoroughly but I know it won’t happen in my lifetime……. Sick to the stomach of cheating ……. Commonwealth games??? Why would anything with rules come anywhere near Scotland ???
Carntyne says:
February 12, 2014 at 12:38 pm
The only thing that might prevent Third Rangers is total financial insolvency.
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Carntyne – they have a ÂŁ10,000,000 / year overspending habit and have not responded to rehab. Their institutional dealers have scarpered, Institutional methadone has been withdrawn and eventually they will alienate their friends and family. The trajectory that follows is sad but 99.9% inevitable. The only chance of redemption is cold turkey and an entire change of lifestyle, associates and environment. There is a very slim chance that one day we’ll all be getting lectured on fiscal probity by The Clean Rangers – a very slim chance.
First comment, prompted to join by the first podcast.
Thanks lads, it was refreshing to hear a discussion about football from two guys with well reasoned opinion.
Well that’s enough sucking up,
đ
ParanoidWellFan says:
February 12, 2014 at 12:41 pm
However, The Rangers will never be âof inconsequential commercial valueâ to the SPFL due to the size of their fanbase.
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The fanbase depends on the Big Club Rangersness and TRFC can’t afford the Big Club Rangersness. They can either adapt to this new reality or stumble from Admin to Admin until they finally die. All the current evidence suggests they are not adapting.
Bigger organizations than The Rangers have died before and will die again.
Just on the rules thing.
“..Given the awkward treatment and resentment created of recent proposals put to general vote, it has become clear to some of the larger clubs in Scotland, and on that point we’d like to specifically offer a warm welcome to Mr King to the SPFL Board, that the voting on certain matters such as the recent to-do over should a club be promoted following its third insovency event in 5 years – with a big thank you to Sandy Bryson for his excellent presentation on why, looking back on it, 3 is really only 1 and not even that really – that the vote has become bogged down in inconsequential, trivial, less commercial matters such as can you be relegated from the bottom diddy league and quite frankly who cares anyway boo fecking hoo, with the result that the larger clubs, 12 in fact, have moved to break away from the SPFL and create a new premier league set up. A vote on its likely naming rights will be held next week…”
May 2015 P Lawell – SPL (provisional name only pending vote) breakaway board member plus the following 11 chairmen as undersigned.
W Smith plus 10 other no-marks who haven’t signed yet but they’d bloody better if they know what’s good for them.
đ đ and thrice đ
This is the letter I will post today. A suitably adapted version will go to Regan.
” Dear [Mr Lawwell, in manuscript]
The âTelegraphâ reports today that the SPFL have decided by ‘majority opinion’ not to proceed with plans to introduce ‘automatic demotion’ as a penalty for clubs which enter ‘Administration’.
To many of the thousands of readers and contributors to ‘The Scottish Football Monitor’ blog,
it is clear that this decision is based solely on the grounds that ‘The Rangers FC’ is expected to suffer an ‘insolvency event’ sooner rather than later, and in fear of the consequences of having to apply that penalty to that club.
Believing, as I do, that the words ‘Celtic’ and ‘Integrity’ are almost synonymous, I take it as read that Celtic FC did not share the ‘majority’ opinion.
I would like you to be able to confirm that that is the case.
The Scottish Football supporter has been lied to and cheated by the Football Authorities to such an extent already that he/she is now extremely cautious about accepting anything that is said by any of them without some evidence of the truth.
There will undoubtedly be a huge reaction to the ‘Telegraph’sâ report, which will be reflected in ever decreasing attendances as the fans of the clubs that have been cheated are reinforced in the view that they are once again being practised upon by a fundamentally crooked Sport, the administrators of which appear to set aside with contempt the high-sounding, idealistic notions of ‘Fair Play’ and ‘Sporting Integrity’.
Yours sincerely,
( my real signature, of course)
As a certain football manager might say, “Who are these people who make the rules?” The SPFL Board is made up of Executive Director Neil Donacaster and Ralph Topping as Chairman, plus this competent group who have all in recent years provided evidence that they can run their own clubs well:
Eric Riley (Celtic)
Stephen Thompson (Dundee United)
Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen)
Les Gray (Hamilton Academical)
Mike Mulraney (Alloa Athletic)
Bill Darroch (Stenhousemuir)
I don’t believe that they are acting in concert to benefit TRFC, neither do I believe that they are influenced by fear of repercussions from angry bears. Only they can tell us the reasons for their decisions.
Corporate Death Spiral
When an organization organizes its affairs around its internal needs / convenience / comfort to the detriment of the people and organizations that provide its revenue, it is choosing to put itself at a strategic disadvantage to other organizations, similar and dissimilar, that wish to earn that same revenue from those people and organizations.
Or in other words – piss off paying customers, sponsors etc and they’ll find somewhere else to spend their money – and not just elsewhere in your industry. The SPFL is becoming a case study of death by introversion.
m.c.f.c. says:
February 12, 2014 at 12:31 pm
If you think this is good news for The Rangers â think again â because The Rangers face a very rocky road â and as soon as they become both inconvenient and of inconsequential commercial value to the SPFL â they will be set adrift in favour of a more convenient solution. The SPFL have just washed their hands of The Rangers. They donât plan to go through 2012 again, thank you very much, look at the thanks we got from Ibrox for our efforts on their behalf.
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It’s not just about having suffered ingratitude for letting Rangers back in the last time, its about fear of what might happen if they don’t let it happen again. And again. If the SPFL board members are given carte blanche to make such decisions, then it seems inevitable, given recent events, that if their decisions go the ‘wrong way’, the cry will go up ‘Who are these people?’, and information about them will be widely disseminated. A couple more shrill blasts on the dog whistle, and they will be looking over their shoulders all the time, and examining their daily post with more than the usual care. There may at least have been something of safety in numbers if all the different chairs of the various clubs voted.
Is it too simplistic to do what should be obvious (ie what SHOULD have happened already)?
* Admin 1 = points deduction (eg 15 or % etc)
* assuming successfully exit Admin 1, but enter Admin 2 = greater points deduction (eg 25 or % etc)
* Liquidation (whether club, company or clumpany) = new club/entity APPLIES to join league set up from scratch with NO special dispensations (ie no ifs, buts or whatabouts).
PS I can think of at least one example where the above consequence of liquidation should be applied retrospectively.
At what point in all these behind-the-scenes discussions does someone with half a brain stand up and say: âSorry, but weâd simply never get that past the bampotsâ?
I’m naive enough to think the creditors should be the priority in any administration event.
Admin 1 should be a pre-set penalty of end of season relegation one division more than the final position.
Any further admin events within say 5 years of the club/company/entity/whatever should be relegation to one of the feeder leagues.
And I’d do away with Football debts getting priority – that is just wrong and I’m amazed its allowed.
blu says:
February 12, 2014 at 1:09 pm
As a certain football manager might say, âWho are these people who make the rules?â The SPFL Board is made up of Executive Director Neil Donacaster and Ralph Topping as Chairman, plus this competent group who have all in recent years provided evidence that they can their own clubs well:
Eric Riley (Celtic)
Stephen Thompson (Dundee United)
Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen)
Les Gray (Hamilton Academical)
Mike Mulraney (Alloa Athletic)
Bill Darroch (Stenhousemuir)
I donât believe that they are acting in concert to benefit TRFC, neither do I believe that they are influenced by fear of repercussions from angry bears. Only they can tell us the reasons for their decisions.
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I believe that they most certainly are (and a similar group have been for the last 2 years) acting in concert to benefit TRFC. I am unable to interpret the events of the last two years in any other way. Their reasons for doing so are another matter. But that is, as a matter of fact, is how they have acted.
Campbellsmoney says: February 12, 2014 at 12:25 pm
It depends where you are and where they are. Its Thursday here in Samoa
Does that mean Campbell’s money is always a day ahead fo the UK authorities?
BTW Congratulations on finding possibly the only country with an unhealthier diet than Scotland!
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/rangers-supporters-trust-buy-up-more-shares-1-3303733
“Rangers” supporters give more money to spivs.
Now we can guess why Ogilvie turned up at Ibrox on Friday.
Was it to seek approval of the Immortality Plan?
m.c.f.c. says:
February 12, 2014 at 12:48 pm
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Carntyne says:
February 12, 2014 at 12:38 pm
The only thing that might prevent Third Rangers is total financial insolvency.
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Carntyne â they have a ÂŁ10,000,000 / year overspending habit and have not responded to rehab. Their institutional dealers have scarpered, Institutional methadone has been withdrawn and eventually they will alienate their friends and family. The trajectory that follows is sad but 99.9% inevitable. The only chance of redemption is cold turkey and an entire change of lifestyle, associates and environment. There is a very slim chance that one day weâll all be getting lectured on fiscal probity by The Clean Rangers â a very slim chance.
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Nicely put MCFC , but there is one thing that prevents them from ever being a ”clean rangers” , their mentality . It really is as simple as that . ”Back where we belong” is my particular favourite of their many sound bites . Firstly , RFC died , so that particular incarnation isn’t getting ”Back” anywhere . Secondly , Sevco , on their maiden voyage , are apparently iceberg bound and rudderless . Doesn’t that imply that administration is as likely as them winning their divisional title ?
Personally , I can’t ever see it , the mentality, change until this incarnation is liquidated. A year or two with no team from Ibrox competing in the SPFL , you know , enough time to taste humble pie , enough to sit back and look at the game flourish without their presence . Then , and only then , whack them over the head with the olive branch and say ” Okay , leave yer baggage at the door , welcome back ”
I should fess up – I am not really in Samoa. I just wanted to say somewhere over the dateline.
đ
Tartanwulver says:
February 12, 2014 at 1:22 pm
Itâs not just about having suffered ingratitude for letting Rangers back in the last time, its about fear of what might happen if they donât let it happen again.
ââââââââââââââââââââââ
I’m sure the SPFL will help them out of the next Admin event – as the path of least resistance and most convenience and living in the hope that things can return to “normal”. But “normal” was never normal and is never coming back. I strongly believe that if The Rangers do not adapt quickly to their new place in the 21st century, they will self destruct and the SPFL will get bored with them .All the evidence indicates they are not adapting. As for intimidation by psychopaths in the name of football – that’s a wider and more serious social issue.
blu says:
February 12, 2014 at 1:09 pm
As a certain football manager might say, âWho are these people who make the rules?â The SPFL Board is made up of Executive Director Neil Donacaster and Ralph Topping as Chairman, plus this competent group who have all in recent years provided evidence that they can their own clubs well:
Eric Riley (Celtic)
Stephen Thompson (Dundee United)
Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen)
Les Gray (Hamilton Academical)
Mike Mulraney (Alloa Athletic)
Bill Darroch (Stenhousemuir)
I donât believe that they are acting in concert to benefit TRFC, neither do I believe that they are influenced by fear of repercussions from angry bears. Only they can tell us the reasons for their decisions.
_____________________________________________
I think it’s safe to say that only Eric Riley’s club that can feel confident that it won’t suffer an insolvency event in the relatively near future (not saying any will). With self interest as the usual motivating factor when committees vote, in this respect I suspect they voted for their own potential benefit. On the other hand, had the compulsory relegation not been on the agenda, and only ‘no promotion/league titles’ been considered, then, as it’s unlikely any of these clubs would ‘win the league’ with a 15 point, or more, deduction, the outcome might well have been different, or if the same, clearly for the benefit of TRFC. I think it was a clever (from the authorities position) move to include both penalties together, rather than as individual proposals for consideration.
Automatic relegation to Vanguard Bears?
Campbellsmoney says:
February 12, 2014 at 1:49 pm
Hmm, you are a very nawtee, nawtee bwoy! đ
Oh come on people – normally what I put up on here is as dry as dust. Can’t a woman have a bit of a laugh now and again?
đ
Campbellsmoney says:
February 12, 2014 at 1:49 pm
I should fess up â I am not really in Samoa. I just wanted to say somewhere over the dateline.
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One of my favourite sports ‘quotes’ of all time: Western Samoa beat Wales 16-13 in their 1991 Rugby World Cup group match at Cardiff Arms Park, giving rise to the welsh quip: “Thank goodness we weren’t playing all of Samoa”.
The football authorities in Scotland must realise that a decision not to implement new rules that mean entering administration leads to relegation could be open to neurotic and ill founded interpretations by misguided supporters who are under the misapprehension that all clubs are equal in Scottish football, but one is more equal than others.
I am therefore sure that this story will rapidly be widely reported and analysed in all newspapers north of the border accompanied by radio and tv interviews with the leaders in Scottish football to explain the decision to all, in the interests of transparency and restoring their reputations.
đ
Make of this what you will!
@LawTop20: Have Rangers filed an Extraordinary Application to have an exception to the 3-year prohibition rule with regards to European Games?
@LawTop20: Of course any exceptions for a European license are conditional upon proper financial accounts.
@LawTop20: Who is the licence applicant? The football company or the registered member?
@LawTop20: If the licence applicant is a football company, it must provide a written contract of assignment with a registered member. Contract?
JC and others.
I can understand the confusion, difficulties and possible fear in the clause for automatic relegation.
I’m struggling to see any issue with the concept of ill-earned promotion.
As usual I am off the pace… So who benefits most from rangers in administration:
1. Before they get the new SB monies?
2. After they get the SB monies?
Smugas says:
February 12, 2014 at 2:14 pm
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JC and others.
I can understand the confusion, difficulties and possible fear in the clause for automatic relegation.
Iâm struggling to see any issue with the concept of ill-earned promotion.
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Absolutely. Which leads one ineluctably to the conclusion that there is no issue – “they” are doing it deliberately.
VAT â
Campbellsmoney says:
February 12, 2014 at 2:07 pm
Oh come on people…. Canât a woman have a bit of a laugh now and again?
(My edit)
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Campbellsmoney…you deserve more than a million “TU”s for that memorable line.
PS…what are you up to on Valentines’ Night…?
PPS…I can travel…!
essexbeancounter says:
February 12, 2014 at 2:55 pm
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Campbellsmoney says:
February 12, 2014 at 2:07 pm
Oh come on peopleâŚ. Canât a woman have a bit of a laugh now and again?
(My edit)
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CampbellsmoneyâŚyou deserve more than a million âTUâs for that memorable line.
PSâŚwhat are you up to on Valentinesâ NightâŚ?
PPSâŚI can travelâŚ!
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Eh…..remember when I said I wasn’t really in Samoa, well I’m not really a wo….. Och what the hell. I am not doing anything on Friday.
No1 Bob says: February 12, 2014 at 1:42 pm
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/rangers-supporters-trust-buy-up-more-shares-1-3303733
âRangersâ supporters give more money to spivs.
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Despite the headline the following article in The Scotsman sets out the difficulties for fan groups buying any meaningful stake in TRIFC plc, not least the lack of unity of factionalism between supporter organisations.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/alex-rae-richard-gough-back-rangers-fan-ownership-1-3301143
Given the distinct risk of an impending administration, I would not be inclined to âinvestâ in TRIFC plc shares.
sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolis says:
February 12, 2014 at 3:08 pm
1 0 Rate This
————
The Sun putting it at 200,000 shares. Some people’s hard-earned đŻ
Campbellsmoney says:
February 12, 2014 at 3:01 pm
EhâŚ..remember when I said I wasnât really in Samoa, well Iâm not really a woâŚ.. Och what the hell. I am not doing anything on Friday.
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Campbellsmoney…Mrs Essexbeancounter put me wise to you…something about “female intuition”…whatever position she plays at…!
The Sun putting it at 200,000 shares. Some peopleâs hard-earned.
Have the RST really bought the shares this week, or is that including the total they own from the original IPO.
Just wondering like.
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says: February 12, 2014 at 2:12 pm
Make of this what you will!
@LawTop20: Have Rangers filed an Extraordinary Application to have an exception to the 3-year prohibition rule with regards to European Games?
@LawTop20: Of course any exceptions for a European license are conditional upon proper financial accounts.
@LawTop20: Who is the licence applicant? The football company or the registered member?
@LawTop20: If the licence applicant is a football company, it must provide a written contract of assignment with a registered member. Contract?
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From the notorious 5-Way Agreement (External draft 6) published on Twitter
Sevco Undertakings to and Agreements with the SFA
2.4 Sevco irrevocably undertakes to and agrees with the SFA that on (in respect of all monetary obligations) and from (in respect of all other obligations) Completion it shall:
2.4.1. N/A (Appellate Tribunal)
2.4.2. N/A (Registration Embargo)
2.4.3. N/A (Payment of SPL Judicial Panel Protocol fines)
2.4.4. acknowledge that under UEFA Regulations, Sevco/Rangers FC is currently ineligible to participate in UEFA Competitions. Subject to their qualification on sporting merit and any dispensation granted by UEFA following representations by Sevco/Rangers FC, the SFA shall nominate Sevco/ Rangers FC for participation in applicable UEFA competitions when they become eligible to so participate.
Just as a passing comment, I don’t trust posts that claim, with 100% certainty, to be able to discern the internal psychological state of an individual – without seeking some basic evidence, like asking them – let alone the collective psychological state of a community/fanbase/country/whatever. Objective analysis is one thing. Conflating truth with Derren Brown’s stage show is quite another.
rabtdog says:
February 12, 2014 at 3:49 pm
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Just as a passing comment, I donât trust posts that claim, with 100% certainty, to be able to discern the internal psychological state of an individual â without seeking some basic evidence, like asking them â let alone the collective psychological state of a community/fanbase/country/whatever. Objective analysis is one thing. Conflating truth with Derren Brownâs stage show is quite another.
======================
Surely all psychological systems operate on the observation of behaviour, from Freud (Sigmund) to Darren Brown. How else could it work? You deduce from an individual’s or group’s behaviour their psychological state. Well so my daughter tells me, and she’s a research psychologist. Just asking them ain’t going to work- in my opinion.
Danish Pastry says: February 12, 2014 at 3:18 pm
I find all of the differing Ibrox fan organisations rather confusing.
From The Rangers Supporters Trust website Q&A
Why is Supporters Direct involved?
Supporters Direct was formed in 2000 as an initiative of the UK Government. Its goal is to âpromote sustainable spectator sports clubs based on supporters involvement and community ownershipâ. Like us, Supporters Direct is a Community Benefit Society registered with the Financial Service Authority and owned by its member Clubs and Supporters Societies, of which Rangers Supporters Society is one.
The article in the The Scotsman states that:-
A group of Rangers supporters are due to hear a presentation on Friday from Paul Goodwin, head of Supporters Direct Scotland (SDS), at the Louden Tavern in Ibrox. Goodwin will discuss the formation of a Community Interest Company [CIC] that would be run along similar lines to the Foundation of Hearts…”
So it looks like the vehicle being promoted by Supporters Direct is a different fan ownership scheme than the BuyRangers scheme being run by the RST as it is a separate Community Benefit Trust from RST (“Splitters”).
Cue Judean Peoples Front comments!
sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolis says:
February 12, 2014 at 3:08 pm
No1 Bob says:
February 12, 2014 at 1:42 pm
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/rangers-supporters-trust-buy-up-more-shares-1-3303733
âRangersâ supporters give more money to spivs.
ââââââââââââââââââââââ-
Despite the headline the following article in The Scotsman sets out the difficulties for fan groups buying any meaningful stake in TRIFC plc, not least the lack of unity of factionalism between supporter organisations.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/alex-rae-richard-gough-back-rangers-fan-ownership-1-3301143
Given the distinct risk of an impending administration, I would not be inclined to âinvestâ in TRIFC plc shares.
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Interesting in all sorts of ways but now looks as though the fan factionalism could find it’s way to the Boardroom if the different groups build sizable shareholdings.
However, that’s looking on the bright side. The other side of the coin is that not a penny from the shares purchased ends up in the club and also I fear that the RST might be about to get an introduction to Spiv 101.
Something that struck me as quite frightening was the RST guy saying they could borrow money against future income from the fans monthly payments and be able to buy more shares. Well it might be comforting for some to see that the Rangers history will continue as before if the fans get control of the boardroom.
Observers might wonder if nothing has been learnt from the last few years about living within your means. Still it’s their money to lose đ
ecobhoy says:
February 12, 2014 at 11:33 am
neepheid says:
February 12, 2014 at 10:38 am
(and others asking about what happened in 2012)
I think, a change to the existing rules, or at least to the existing procedures. And a very significant change. The clubs can in future hide behind the board, and so completely ignore the feelings of their fans. What the clubs are seeking to avoid at any cost is a repeat of the events of summer 2012, when they had to stand up and be counted in a transparent manner. They did not like that one little bit. Transparency is their enemy, They much prefer their grubby deals to be done in private.
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Nail on head! They were exposed to fan pressure last time and didnât like it. But they knew with the financial shambles of a Rangers still spending recklessly beyond their means it would probably end-up back in an admin/liquidation scenario.
Walking by on the other side of the moral highway with eyes averted means they can wash their hands of any responsibility no matter what. They will sympathise with fans who complain but blame the Board of the SPFL, the SFA and everyone they can think of.
However it boils down to cowardice and the hope fans will swallow it â they wonât and many wonât walk away from their club and I am one of them. So we have to become better at getting our message across. We must have the belief that eventually Scottish Football can only be saved if those in charge are honest and their decision-making is not only transparent but takes account of the wishes of fans without whom the game will inevitably die.
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If you go through this topic on KDS , particularly the letter under the Spoiler to Doncaster and his replies) you will get a good idea of what transpired.
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/topic/8658278/1/
Supporters told clubs then they were not having it and I think we need to tell them again.
It is like having the game run by bent referees free to make up their own rules (Ok I know some appear to do but its the best I can come up with).
neepheid says:
February 12, 2014 at 4:11 pm
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rabtdog says:
February 12, 2014 at 3:49 pm
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Just as a passing comment, I donât trust posts that claim, with 100% certainty, to be able to discern the internal psychological state of an individual â without seeking some basic evidence, like asking them â let alone the collective psychological state of a community/fanbase/country/whatever. Objective analysis is one thing. Conflating truth with Derren Brownâs stage show is quite another.
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Surely all psychological systems operate on the observation of behaviour, from Freud (Sigmund) to Darren Brown. How else could it work? You deduce from an individualâs or groupâs behaviour their psychological state. Well so my daughter tells me, and sheâs a research psychologist. Just asking them ainât going to work- in my opinion.
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The problem about asking people questions is that they might, for a variety of reasons, not want to tell you what they truly believe or think and often they will tell the researcher what they think the researcher wants to hear.again for a number of reasons.
That’s why researchers often construct a ‘false’ experiment which the people observed believe to be the actual experiment whereas something altogether is being oberved or tested.
There’s nout as queer as people when trying to figure out what they’re really thinking or up to in my experience đ
ecobhoy says: February 12, 2014 at 4:24 pm
As the shares owned by The Rangers Supporters Club in RFC plc (IL) are worthless the collective amnesia of the RST is beyond bewildering and bordering on “madness” as defined by Einstein.
How do I correctly add a “confused” emoticon!!!!!
neepheid says:
February 12, 2014 at 4:11 pm
Surely all psychological systems operate on the observation of behaviour, from Freud (Sigmund) to Darren Brown. How else could it work? You deduce from an individualâs or groupâs behaviour their psychological state. Well so my daughter tells me, and sheâs a research psychologist. Just asking them ainât going to work- in my opinion.
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Good psychologists only ‘suggest’ or ‘propose’ what is happening inside someone’s head, they wouldn’t dream of stating anything stronger than that, there is also a very limited correlation between what you can observe on a scan and actual thinking processes. Derren Brown, on the other hand, is clearly beyond such pussyfooting about. If TSFM could set up a podcast with DB and, say, some of the SFA people, I would be intrigued to hear what he thought was in their minds.
Danish Pastry says: February 12, 2014 at 3:18 pm
I find all of the differing Ibrox fan organisations rather confusing.
From The Rangers Supporters Trust website Q&A
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By some fantastic co-incidence, just as I was reading through all these comments this morning an old Bobby Vinton hit came on my itunes shuffle that seemed strangely appropriate:
“Blue on Blue,
Heartache on heartache”
đ
The SFA and CO in particular are not fit for purpose. Lets face reality the team from Govan will be back in the top tier the season after next and God forbid if they win the Cup there will be an almighty push for them to play in Europe.
As a result of their corrupt agenda the SFA have duped all Govan fans financially while trying to save some sort of out of date notion concerning the fabric of society. In doing what they have done has introduced a breed of monsters (we know them as spivs) that are now the top dupers, who laugh in the face of SFA and use fabric as a method to take money from the fabric led fans. So SFA how does it feel to be used the way you used us?
We against the odds as fans delayed the process as we said no (IMO this was not what SFA wanted or expected). We need our voices back and with the forthcoming UTT hearing (as RTC said long time ago. HMRC will appeal and appeal as the evidence is overwhelming) approaching and if HMRC win the appeal we again as fans may have a voice. As this will prove the level of cheating that went on from one club.
Another point this time reference the SMSM, the coverage the Govan club have received since they where in the lowest tier beggars belief. If they win the cup In the words of Mr Jackson it will go off the radar.
Some advice when posting to TSFM via iPhone and _The Cloud ⌠write the post in Notes first *then* copy’n’paste *then* post here because when you’ve spent 15 mins peck-typing a couple of hundred words which vanish into the ĂŚther, it’s a huge bumpain…
TL;DR summary:
1. equality of treatment is important
2. formulations like ‘all of group X believe Y because that’s what they’re like’ strike me as sinister
3. charge posters ÂŁ10 every time they use that clichĂŠ “succulent lamb” and your funding issues would be over before the League Cup final
4. yeah ecobhoy, i see what you mean about people’s motivations in answering questions but if every aspect of human interaction required double-blind, peer-reviewed studies then law, journalism, TSFM and many other areas of life would be up poo creek
5. getting journos on the podcast to discuss the essential nature of Scottish sports journalism could be enlightening – especially for posters who think Jack Irvine operates the Scottish press from behind a curtain in the Emerald (whoops metaphor’s broken) City
rabtdog says:
February 12, 2014 at 5:30 pm
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3. charge posters ÂŁ10 every time they use that clichĂŠ âsucculent lambâ and your funding issues would be over before the League Cup final
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đ đ đ đ
Interesting article about journalists leaving print media to set up their own ‘personal brand journalism’ websites.
It made me think about our own woeful, SMSM print media coverage of Scottish football.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/06/ezra-klein-leave-washington-post-personal-brand
No1 Bob says:
February 12, 2014 at 1:42 pm
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/rangers-supporters-trust-buy-up-more-shares-1-3303733
âRangersâ supporters give more money to spivs.
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Cut them some slack!
The Rangers fans are constantly pilloried for not taking action so at least now they are trying something, I understand the arguments against this action but at least they are starting to get that they hold no control over the future and must do something to address that.
Misguided or too late in the day, at least they are active.
re my take on the Telegraph piece .
To fail to put in place a rule that prevents any club from overspending their way to a title only to suffer an insolvency event in the full knowledge that a Scottish Football boards discretion can still allow promotion is wrong and another step towards the downfall of our game .
There could possibly be instances where clubs may suffer such an event outwith their control but IMO that is not and never should be a reason to leave the rule (open to pressure commercial or fan base ) to any board .
Put the rule in place and let the unscrupulous egomaniacs know Scottish football is not a platform to have their 15 minutes of fame
Any word on the VAT etc that was due earlier this week?
ecobhoy says:
February 12, 2014 at 4:24 pm
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Something that struck me as quite frightening was the RST guy saying they could borrow money against future income from the fans monthly payments and be able to buy more shares…
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Seriously???? đ
Running up debts in order to line the pocket of spivs having already lined their pockets time and time again???
After seeing in sharp focus exactly where spending money they haven’t got on vanities they can’t afford has put both rangers and sevco?
And some bears really still can see no incongruity with this scenario?
Some people are beyond help!
I feel real sympathy for the decent TRFC fans.
But – apologies – sometimes pointing and laughing is the only sane response!
A query about Administration.
When Rangers Football Club went into administration two years ago, the court allowed CW his own choice of administrators. Thus D&P were appointed, a firm which apparently put the interest of RFC(IA) before that of the creditors. Now at that time there were many creditors, everything from HMRC to the paper shop and the face painter apparently. Although HMRC was the largest creditor there were many others, some with substantial claims.
Fast forward to the present. We donât know how many creditors TRFC has at the moment or if HMRC is amongst them (yet). What we do know is that the largest major creditor must be RIFC, TRFC having been presumed to have gnawed its way through anything up to ÂŁ20 million of its parent companyâs funds. So, if a TRFC administration occurs does this not put RIFC in the driving seat? Able to appoint its âownâ administrator, and in the event of a CVA, its voting rights vastly outweighing anyone elseâs.
The difference from last time around being that no one will be able to say that the administrator is not working in the best interest of the creditors, or at least the major one. Cue transfer of properties in exchange for debt and a rapid exit from administration. Could this be the âcontrolled administrationâ that people have been discussing â or am I picking all of this up the wrong way?
Fergus – the board discretion point only kicks in in a newco scenario.
Madbhoy24941 says:
February 12, 2014 at 5:49 pm
‘…Misguided or too late in the day, at least they are active.’
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On the general theme ( mentioned by some posters yesterday) of the lack of cohesive action by the RFC support, it must surely be the case that the dead-RFC included among its support a fair number of lawyers, accountants, business men, school-teachers, academics , estate agents, chartered surveyors, finance-men etc etc, as well as a swathe of otherwise intelligent, sensible, basically decent ordinary joes and jennies?
Where were they, that they could not find among themselves their own RTC -type, their own PMCG, their own P McConville, in the early days of the catastrophic collapse of SDM’s dream?
Why was no-one concerned and interested enough to follow up, independently, on anything emanating either from the MSM or from the Board?
Someone who could set up a blog that did not consist of blind statements of trust in megalomaniacs, wealth off the radar types, or Yorkshire shysters, rip-off directors, cut-and-run asset strippers and doubtful bus operators?
A blog that was not only a cut above the vile obscenities and puerile ranting bigotry of a supporters’ site, but could actually ask serious questions about the club’s finances and the Administration process and the authenticity of CF leaks etc, the IPO monies and the exorbitant directors’ salaries, the huge player bill, the coming and going of directors and NOMADS, and in more recent times, the drop in share price, and the various bits of pending court action?
The Bomber Brown’s and Sandy Jardines would deserve some credit for trying to save their club, except that they were hopelessly uninformed as to who the destroyers of their identity as a club actually were (and are).
Where were the more ‘sophisticated’ fans- the ones with typewriters, or the ones who move in the circles of the great and the good in legal, political, and business circles?
And where are they now, when their frankly ludicrous ideas of ‘fan control of the Board’ are running contrary to all financial reality?
It is a remarkable phenomenon.
I hope some student of mass psychology or media affairs or some such is making a study of the e ‘missing support’, the non-appearance of a sustained, informed , supporters’ challenge to the (manifest) rubbish they were being asked to believe.
Campbellsmoney says:
February 12, 2014 at 7:56 pm
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Fergus â the board discretion point only kicks in in a newco scenario.
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Hypothetical, but would that discretion extend to the club from Ibrox liquidating due to excessive spending beyond it’s means as many times as it chooses but remaining debt free in the top league via a share transfer to a newco?
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Hypothetically yes.
So where do you, or more specifically “the board”, stop with this – keep newco-ing until the CL is won or is once, sorry twice, oops no meant three, four then….. defined as enough is enough. Precisely, in my view, the point that Doncaster (the text certainly read like him) made in the original discussion piece circulated by Charlotte from September time which I assume bastardised into the proposal that got bogged down in automatic relegations and such like.
Be very interested to read that original piece again to see how its format changed if anyone has it.
Removed my own post in light of yesterday’s discussion regarding participation of decent bear/s. And also cambellsmoney has pointed out, that nothing has really changed, conveniently all be it, in time for company/asset/changeover scenario.
upthehoops says:
February 12, 2014 at 8:14 pm
Hypothetical, but would that discretion extend to the club from Ibrox liquidating due to excessive spending beyond itâs means as many times as it chooses but remaining debt free in the top league via a share transfer to a newco?
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A company can go into administration and exit via an agreed CVA several times. Since liquidation would not be involved, therefore no newco required. That is why we need serious automatic penalties for administration. Which we aren’t getting, of course.
What is it the fools in charge of our clubs cannot grasp in the decisions that they are taking?
With the decisions they are taking they are alienating their own support, their own paying customers, the people who keep their clubs afloat. They are weakening themselves and what for?
Do they seriously think that there will be a change of heart from ‘The Rangers’ and that suddenly they will be full of benevolence when they come back to the top league or that they will begin to build bridges between themselves and other clubs. If they do they are even more foolish that I thought.
The actions they are taking, or more importantly NOT taking, are forcing out ordinary fans who will not return. Perhaps that is their grand plan to cripple the top league to ensure that a club losing ÂŁ10M a season can still have a chance at the title.
Some pundits say ‘Its business’ but could some one please point me to any other industry that allows a loss making entity to dictate how the well run businesses function. If this is business then it is quite simply bad business. It is short sighted decision making matched only by the absurd management of ‘The Rangers’ themselves.
I’m sure that there are intelligent people up and down the country in our boardrooms so where does this consensus come from?
Do they really believe that ‘The Rangers’ in the top flight is the only possible way to inhibit Celtic from winning the league year in year out?
I cannot accept that after the display Aberdeen put on at the weekend and, given a few years of second place prize money, they would ultimately challenge.
Do they really believe that ‘The Rangers’ in the top flight is the only possible way to drive up attendances?
Again I cannot buy this either as attendances at most clubs are either up or stagnant with Celtic being the big losers.
Do they really believe that ‘The Rangers’ in the top flight is the only possible way to sustain the TV contract?
Well if that is the case then I’m afraid the game is up because you cannot run a sport based on a TV contract because ultimately fans will get hacked traveling to terrible kick off times planned to suit TV more than the paying customer.
Normal people up and down the country have watched the disintegration of banks and businesses over the last six years. One of the few things fans had left was the knowledge that whatever little spare money they had went to watch a sport devoid of the financial corruption and greed epitomised by so many of the business community.
The fact that one club in Scotland had exactly the same morals, financial and business acumen of many busted corporations and that this same club was allowed a soft landing was disgusting. To perpetuate this charade on the rest of the Scottish footballing public is no longer acceptable. We demand better governance and more accountability of the decision makers within our sport.
Smugas says:
February 12, 2014 at 8:23 pm
So where do you, or more specifically âthe boardâ, stop with this â keep newco-ing until the CL is won
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You’re on the same wavelength as me Smugas, and probably most of this board. The SPFL seem uninterested in the possibility an organisation could simply live off a brand name forever, if someone else was stupid enough to keep giving them money that they never paid back.
Again I can only go back to the Charlotte document around the new year (at least I would if I kept a friggin copy!) where again the writer went to great lengths to distinguish that the CVA solution which appears to have its merits a la Hearts, Dunfermline etc was uncommonly common in Scotland whereas the more common solution elsewhere (I think he cited southampton, Portsmouth etc) was to newco ie. sell the club (don’t start) to new owners. It then went on to specifically distinguish the RFC situation where the new owner had purchased, but only because the old owner was forced to sell – unlike, for instance, a genuine change of ownership like Marlboro to Murray. I recall saying at the time that Charlotte appeared to have circulated it with a view to smudging the old club/new club boundaries and didn’t think shje realised the potential impact on any future newco requirement – as if.
Re the Telegraph article
I was rather struck by one of the apparently insurmountable problems they faced –
“For example, if a member goes into administration while playing in League Two then where would we put them?”
Well as the new pyramid system is supposed to come into being in season 2014/2015 (as per SPFL rule C33)then the lowland league or the highland league (as appropriate) I would guess đ
parttimearab says:
February 12, 2014 at 9:50 pm
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Or, as someone tweeted this afternoon, in the League 2 admin situ, if you cant relegate them, ban them from promotion for 2 years. I agree the pyramid structure should be used. They just dont want rang3rs in Lowland League.