Our First podcast features a general discussion involving our own Big Pink and Auldheid.
Since it is the first podcast there is no particular agenda save for a general chat about TSFM, the state of Scottish Football, and some few reminiscences. The chat covers a lot of ground, but establishes the ethos of the blog pretty well.
Topics discussed include FPP, Leadership, Interdependence, Scotland’s self-regard, Coaching and Nurturing of Talent, Redistribution of Income, Rangers, Forgiveness, domestic strife đ
The interview was conducted a couple of days before the latest round of Armageddon, when Big Pink and Auldheid felt safe and well đ
The link below is to the iTunes store page for our Podcasts. If you go there, you can subscribe to the podcast (on your PC or iPhone) and new episodes will automatically be sent to you.
Since we have just been approved for a spot on iTunes, the iTunes search side of things may not work properly for a day or so.
tcup 2012 says:
February 13, 2014 at 5:36 pm
Ally.
As I said My words đ
Iâm sorry but Iâm the sort of person who finds it hard to put his thoughts into the printed word đ
___________________
tcup,
it’s having thoughts that I find difficult đ
Just a matter of interest … lifted from another forum:
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (SCOTLAND) ACT 2002 SUBJECT: Attendance Figures
I refer to your email dated 1 January 2014 regarding the above which has been handled in accordance with
the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 (FOISA).
Please can you provide the attendance figures recorded under health & safety requirements for the following Celtic matches played at Celtic
Park during season 2012-13 and season 2013-14
Celtic v Kilmarnock 30/01/13 – 24,089 (BBC Att: 43,652)
Celtic v Dundee Utd 16/02/13 – 33,860 (BBC Att: 46,496)
Celtic v Dundee 24/02/13 – 24,157 (BBC Att: 39,959)
Celtic v Aberdeen 16/03/13 – 31,719 (BBC Att: 46,395)
Celtic v Hibernian 6/04/13 – 39,380 (BBC Att: 49,174)
Celtic v Inverness 28/04/13 (was on the 21.04.2013) 45,064 (BBC Att: 55,000)
Celtic v St Johnstone 11/05/13 – 44,908 (BBC not listed)
Celtic v Ross County 3/08/13 – 36,855 (Not available)
Celtic v Inverness 24/08/13 – 35,814 (BBC Att: 45,160)
Celtic v St Johnstone 21/09/13 – 34,310 (BBC Att: 45,220)
Celtic v Motherwell 5/10/13 – 34,440 (BBC Att: 46,608)
Celtic v Dundee Utd 2/11/13 – 35,768 (BBC Att: 46,496)
Celtic v Aberdeen 23/11/13 – 38,614 (BBC Att: 49,683)
Celtic v Hibernian 14/12/13 – 26,083 (BBC Att: 46,065)
Celtic v Hearts 21/12/13 – 24,444 (BBC Att: 46,058)
Celtic v Partick Thistle 01/01/14 – 27,853 (BBC Att: 52,670)
With the talk of individual letters to the SFA, SPFL, newspapers, etc I wondered if a more effective way was a press release from TSFM querying the decision not to properly address future instances of clubs entering administration but still enjoying the fruits of their misdeeds through existing penalties being inadequate. I believe there is a pretty common view on this matter.
I believe that we have had suggested wording on the Forum to equitably address such a situation. This could be incorporated into the press release.
Amongst the bodies to be mailed this document should be Supporters Direct who should be encouraging such constructive involvement by fans – participation that should also be welcomed by the Scottish football authorities.
Such a press release should also raise the profile of TSFM further and hopefully give weight to any future comments from TSFM.
Scottish Football needs fan input to decision-making.
Danish Pastry says:
February 13, 2014 at 7:51 am
79 1 Rate This
Great listen on Sportsound yesterday, Jim Spence and Paul Sturruck on from 20:45m â 28:28min about the Roma v Dundee United second leg.
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Just catching up here. I remember sitting watching that game with my father. It was played on a Wednesday afternoon for some reason. What a feat it would have been for Dundee Utd to reach that final, and most people smelled a rat at the time with the Referees performance. Nothing new for Italian clubs to cheat of course and before and since football fans throughout Europe have been left to wonder why their team suffered so much through ‘bad’ refereeing.
Angus1983 says:
February 13, 2014 at 7:22 pm
3 1 Rate This
Just a matter of interest ⊠lifted from another forum:
=====================
Any similar figures for Ibrox?
Angus1983 says: February 13, 2014 at 7:22 pm
—————————————
The official figures for the two missing games, according to the SPFL website, were:
Ross Co 03/08/13 – 45,705
St Johnstone 11/05/13 – 57,000
Listened briefly to sport tonight on the BBC radio Scotland.
All the pundits were discussing where Celtic go from here and the ‘down sizing’ that they are going through because they have sold major players and replaced them with inferior quality.
They were desperate to say that it was all because …………………………. well you know the rest.
One pundit said that Celtic had taken a punt on Pukki, Boerrigter, Baldi, and their other buys. Now they may very well be correct however how many of us had heard of Wanyama and Hooper before they arrived.
Celtic have a business plan to buy low and sell high and more importantly live within their means.
Most clubs in the top league are now starting to address their debt whether it is through debt restructuring with fans or getting better terms from the banks.
It is the phrase “living within your means” that these clowns cannot get into their heads. It is the most dangerous phrase they know and they will not utter it.
Meanwhile on Planet Irony the media have got behind Paul Sturrock’s request to get medals for their outstanding European Cup run in the early eighties because they were cheated by a bribed referee.
Yet in Scotland the same pundits cannot even admit that anything is wrong with the people that run our version of the “rigged game”.
A plague on all their houses!!!!
Going back to Dundee United’s Euro run all those years ago. I wrote here a while ago about the financial disparity between the “sugar daddy” clubs and the grotesque distortion that it causes. It is this disparity that ensures that never again will a club like Dundee United ever have such a run again. Also around this time teams like Malmo, Brugge, and Hamburg contested the final of this continents premier trophy.
Sadly those days are gone. Our sport has been stolen from the fans by the very people who are supposed to protect them. Now I’m not so naĂŻve as to think that a non-league team could win the European Cup but what we now have is a competition where only seven or eight clubs can. That should be a huge concern to the people that govern our sport but unfortunately these people are part of the problem. They are so far removed from the lower levels of the game that I think they believe that everyone is happy to be cannon fodder for the top eight teams in Europe. It is a shame because we used to have a competition where clubs rose and fell but now we just have a stagnant pool of Harlem Globe Trotter like teams. It is great to watch at the business end of the competition in March, April, and May but it is all too predictable and predictability is bad for any sport.
Ref false attendance figures (look up attendance in any dictionary).
The interesting question is why do Celtic and Sevco issue these numbers rather than the attendance? As I understand it they are obliged to give the “attendance” number to the SPFL along with the other match details within 3-4 days of the event so it’s not as though they don’t know. I’ve never understood why they do this.
neepheid says:
February 13, 2014 at 7:41 pm
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Angus1983 says:
February 13, 2014 at 7:22 pm
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Just a matter of interest ⊠lifted from another forum:
=====================
Any similar figures for Ibrox?
=========================
No figures needed Timmy – every one is a sell-out đ
ecobhoy says:
February 13, 2014 at 7:59 pm
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neepheid says:
February 13, 2014 at 7:41 pm
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Angus1983 says:
February 13, 2014 at 7:22 pm
3 1 Rate This
Just a matter of interest ⊠lifted from another forum:
=====================
Any similar figures for Ibrox?
=========================
No figures needed Timmy â every one is a sell-out đ
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And would that, by any chance, be a world record?
ernie on February 13, 2014 at 7:55 pm
————–
Perhaps because club are obliged to publish the figures of all tickets paid for
Which would you rather see, the figures of tickets paid for or an attendance which contains hundreds of freebies?
So why do Celtic and Sevco do this? Is it a secret? It’s interesting.
( Sorry Torq but it’s attendance they’ve to forward to the SPFL not the amount of ST’s sold. And it’s a Celtic/Sevco thing.)
ernie says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:07 pm
So why do Celtic and Sevco do this? Is it a secret? Itâs interesting.
( Sorry Torq but itâs attendance theyâve to forward to the SPFL not the amount of STâs sold. And itâs a Celtic/Sevco thing.)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It’s a PR trick to show things in the best possible light and it’s not really a big issue. What is an issue is the falling attendances at Celtic Park which are in free fall and won’t get any better after Saturday’s SC KO.
GeronimosCadillac says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:12 pm
Crowds come and go, historically. If crowds are down partly because there is no Sevco in the top flight, itâs a price worth paying.
Torquemada says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:06 pm
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ernie on February 13, 2014 at 7:55 pm
âââââ
Perhaps because club are obliged to publish the figures of all tickets paid for
Which would you rather see, the figures of tickets paid for or an attendance which contains hundreds of freebies?
————————————————–
Depends on who you support đ
GeronimosCadillac says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:12 pm
What is an issue is the falling attendances at Celtic Park which are in free fall and wonât get any better after Saturdayâs SC KO.
_________________________________________________
Could there be another reason? Disgust at the state of things we are witnessing?
Esteban says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:18 pm
GeronimosCadillac says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:12 pm
Crowds come and go, historically. If crowds are down partly because there is no Sevco in the top flight, itâs a price worth paying.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Agreed but there has to be an impact on the business model at some point where crowds and season book sales are on a downward trend. I’m not decrying Celtic here I’m just pointing out that they are paying a price that most of the other Premiership teams have largely avoided.
jean7brodie says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:24 pm
GeronimosCadillac says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:12 pm
What is an issue is the falling attendances at Celtic Park which are in free fall and wonât get any better after Saturdayâs SC KO.
_________________________________________________
Could there be another reason? Disgust at the state of things we are witnessing?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Possibly.
It’s pretty obvious why the Celtic crowds are down.
6 Home Champions league qualifiers and CL group games on top of the season book outlay make a hole in the family budget.
Personally, I give domestic cup games a body swerve but each to their own and how they pick the way they spend their money.
Fuel is a major factor too, I need a tank of fuel per match, ÂŁ65 per home game.
ernie on February 13, 2014 at 8:23 pm
———–
Ernie, I had absolutely no intention of insulting you. My sincerest apologies if what I wrote made you feel that I have.
My question was more generic than personal.
I’m an Irish Celtic fan who has not attended half as many games this year as last, not because I don’t want to see my team but for reasons of both finance and weather. I know hundreds of Irish Celtic fans who have not been to games this season though they have paid for their tickets. We demand to be counted too.
Resin_lab_dog, I believe you asked me a question re appropriate penalties ongoing into administration while the possibility of being promoted exists.
I think it’s a difficult question in a couple of ways. Let’s leave Rangers out of it for a moment. Imagine a situation where a club plans soundly for the year ahead, signs players accordingly, does really well but for a few compounding reasons their financial planning has been disastrously wrong and they go into admin. Promotion and resultant profits will get them out of admin. This has not been deliberate at all, it’s not underhand, but a benefit has been achieved through spending money they didn’t have. To me in that situation, it seems harsh to deny them promotion. However, I will concede that it seems harsh to the other teams not in administration who did live within their means if the “administered” team does get promoted. As I said, I find it a tough question.
Bringing Rangers back into it- if the plan was to run up a massive lead then go into an affordable admin (from a points perspective) to shed costs in order to get promotion and then cast aside financial responsibilities, then that is morally repugnant, completely unfair and should be punished. However, and it is a big however, that cannot be by bringing a rule in midway through a season. I’ve always been of the opinion through all of the restructuring talks at the end of last season, that the rules must be set at the start of the season when everyone knows what they’re signing up to. If a rule was brought in now and rangers went into admin a couple of weeks later, I think rangers fans would rightly be up in arms that a rule was brought in to punish them.
But as I said, the behaviour itself would be wrong in this instance and wrong in any other instance. If such a rule was to be brought in in the close season, even allowing for my doubts as expressed above regarding punishing a team who had merely been unfortunate, it would have my full support.
jean7brodie says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:24 pm
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GeronimosCadillac says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:12 pm
What is an issue is the falling attendances at Celtic Park which are in free fall and wonât get any better after Saturdayâs SC KO.
_________________________________________________
Could there be another reason? Disgust at the state of things we are witnessing?
——————————————————
Superb Jean , nail hit squarely on the head . Fans are absolutely sick of it . I am sick to the back teeth of it . I even stopped watching it so much on TV . Up until around 2yrs ago , if I couldn’t get to Celtics games , I would pop down to Easter Road ( the good lady is a hibby) and catch a game there . The appetite for game I had as a kid was still there .
Not anymore . Scottish football is in a chronic state , caused almost entirely by the authorities that govern the game , and at this time , they appear to be untouchable . They’re killing the game I love and there isn’t much I or anyone else can do . Plans were put in place to the detriment of the game and they’ll be forced thru to the end , by hook or by crook .
We need changes at the top . Does anyone here think that Doncaster et al are close to competent ? đ„
The anonymous idiots generating a blizzard of Freedom of Infomation requests aimed at numerous public bodies in Scotland on a sectarian witch hunt obviously rack-up costs which have to be met by Council and Income Tax payers.
But now and again you have to have a laugh at their ignorance đ
Oriel Flattery requests:
GCC swiftly came back to say no law firm was involved so that prevented a few names going on the Haters’ List đ
But not to be outdone the indefatigible Mr/Mrs/Ms Flattery fired back another FoI asking:
GCC hasn’t replied yet but I’m beginning to wonder whether Oriel works for Ticketus and doesn’t realise we have a separate legal system in Scotland and the closest we have to barristers is advocates đł
No doubt there will shortly be another FoI substituting ‘advocate’ for ‘barrister’. OK so its a laugh but in times of cash-strapped councils these ludicrous FoI requests from someone who apparently lives in Wales using a false name and anonymous email is vexatious in my view.
I really am beginning to think that anonymous requests for FoI’s are open to all kinds of abuse and I’m not actually sure they meet the legal requirement, as I understand it, that the applicant must be identifiable.
redlichtie says: February 13, 2014 at 7:32
…I wondered if a more effective way was a press release from TSFM querying the decision not to properly address future instances of clubs entering administration…I believe there is a pretty common view on this matter…
==========
I like your thinking redlichtie.
Individually we have got nowhere with the SFA / SPFL.
Might be worth trying a different tack?
Redlichtie, Stevie
I think that might be an interesting road to go down. The difficulty is in maintaining anonymity. For myself, I don’t really bother about it – and my nickname is more a matter for internet tradition as opposed to a need to lurk in the shadow. However, TSFM may take the view that his anonymity could be compromised by such a development.
I do know that Auldheid is looking to TSFM to front up some correspondence that he has in mind. Maybe he will contribute his views on the matter.
I don’t normally like the TU/TD questionnaires , too many subjects have a middle ground . However considering the state of the game and who is responsible , can I ask the fine contributors here what they think of the following …
A boycott of internationals (clubs have suffered enough) until those at the top change their ways or resign .
TU for the boycott obviously and TD if you think it’s a bad idea .
Thanks in advance folks . đ
Fair enough point ecobhoy, and I agree with the point you are making on the abuse of FOI requests, and this person does sound mildly cretinous, but on what basis can you claim that this witch hunt is sectarian? I don’t think that word should be thrown around without foundation. If only because it belittles genuine cases of sectarianism.
RyanGosling says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:39 pm
Ryan I hear what you are saying but how wrong can your financial predictions be when running a football club?
Anyone who can work an Excel spread sheet can work out a football clubs annual financial prediction in an hour or so. You simply take season ticket sales, factor in a small percentage for people who buy per game, sponsorship, corporate hospitality, catering etc.
Against this you take off traveling and accommodation, wages, NI and Income Tax (no dig intended), Policing costs, stadium repairs (this should almost be a standard percentage) etc.
I find it extremely hard to believe that there should be an unprecedented financial calamity that could not be catered for by any club that has cash at bank.
Bringing ‘The Rangers’ back into play; this financial crisis has been predicted for well over a year due to the monthly cash burn rate.
What financial crisis I hear you ask?
Well the fact that Stockbridge said last October that the club would be down to its last million come April. Well that still leaves a huge black hole the following year even if season tickets are renewed and prices increased. Wallace at the AGM said the club was spending too much. He then compounded that statement by asking the players to take a 15% pay cut.. That in anyone’s book tells you that something is far wrong and that a cash crisis is coming either this season or midway through next.
Now as I said above football financial predictions are relatively easy to do. You simply don’t factor in any home cup ties and negate away trips with travel and accommodation costs however ‘The Rangers’ have had at least two home games which is over and above the calculations mention where more money has come in that should not have been predicted.
You are quite correct in condemning any such practice but it has been quite clear that this has been the plan all along and that league re-construction has allowed a massaging of the rules even further by the “custodians” (no laughing at the back) of our sport.
More fans will be driven away than will be attracted by this latest act of betrayal. Deep mistrust now pervades our sport and it is becoming harder to see any happy ending to this scandal.
RyanGosling says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:39 pm
Resin_lab_dog, I believe you asked me a question re appropriate penalties ongoing into administration while the possibility of being promoted exists.
===================================================
I agree that it is a difficult question.
However I think it is too simplistic to think in terms of an ‘accidental’ or ‘calculated’ admin for the simple reason that this could be very difficult to determine and there would obviously be every reason for a club with a ‘calculated’ admin to hide or fudge that fact and claim it was ‘accidental’.
In view of the SFA’s previous history of inaction when certain financial info was staring them in the face I would also have no or very little confidence in them actually having the ability or necessary powers to investigate and determine the truth of the matter. I would also, in repect of one or possibly two teams, be convinced that they wouldn’t even have the motivation.
And that in a sense leads us onto the situation where any decision would almost certainly be heavily subjective as the accountants can make the figures say anything and again I would have no faith that any subjective decision of the SFA would necessarily be a fair one as I firmly believe smaller, poorer and weaker teams would be made an example of which would not happen with Celtic or Rangers.
I include Celtic and Rangers but for different reasons although that takes us down another road which might be a debate for another time as I don’t want to deflect from the main point raised.
Basically I think there simply has to be a set penalty for admin no matter the circumstances as to how it arises and I believe for it to be an effective sanction it must involve demotion and to me the ‘promotion’ aspect is a bit of a red herring because the ‘promotion’ has only been won at the cost of sporting integrity and financial fairplay whether accidental or calculated.
Torq. Nae bother, I’m not usually a drama queen but I got a wee bit touchy with the suggestion of any connection to the mannie Green!
On the subject of boycotting the national team. I have a wee problem with that because the only bunch of football fans with whom I ever get to discuss any team on any subject without getting into the whataboutery is the “tartan army”. Off to Poland in March, looking forward to meeting the usual cross section of fitba team, including diddy, supporters. Not a fan of boycotts in general. Although it is true that the SFA are probably central to the problem with Sevco, SPFL fitba is but a small part of their remit and there is more to them than Regan and Ogilvie. Maybe I should go but not buy a ticket; that’ll learn ’em?
Or is it just a bad night for me on here?
RyanGosling says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:39 pm
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__________________
Excellent reply Ryan. Thanks.
And I agree absolutely about not changing rules half way through the season.
I am inclined to disagree with you somewhat about the first scenario though. It would be harsh to deny the team promotion under those circumstances, for sure. But it would also be proper.
Whether promotion and subsequent profits would get them out of admin is academic and not a consideration.
You could equally say it is harsh to hit hearts with a 15 point penalty with the near certainty of relegation, at the same time as ham stringing them with a squad that cannot compete because of financial constraints and transfer embargo imposed on it. The two elements together make relegation a near certainty where one or other would have left them a fighting chance. The inevitable relegation will impose a harsh financial penalty on a club whose finances are already straitened and will not grease the way back up for that club. Nevertheless it is proper that they take the consequences of their adminsitration (and I hear little complaint or sense of victimhood from the Tynecastle contingent!)
.Hearts must adjust to a more austere reality as a consequence of their erstwhile profligacy.
If relegation meant that – hypothetically – a hearts team that could have survived was instead liquidated should it be put in abeyance? Of course not!
Similarly, a club counting on the profits of promotion to exit admin more swiftly is pure fundamental ‘Murraynomics’ of the type that killed your club. No different than relying on CL income in fact to get to the end of the season before a qualifying ball has been kicked… ( remember if RFC had beaten Malmo and had the European income of Champions league that season, Whyte would have made it to the end of the season. Project Charlotte would probably have worked! )
And given that TRFC – promoted despite admin – could subsequently be competing against HMFC – demoted because of admin – for the same promotion places in the following season – well something just doesn’t sit right.
I think I know which of the two clubs most reasonable neutrals (or should the be ‘Rangers haters’ – as the various Fans forums of the blue persuasion, and :slamb: pen weilders would tag them) would be rooting for in those circumstances!
That’s why I think that a rule which bars teams in administration from moving upwards in the league structure should be brought in urgently. Those with financial discipline will prosper. Those without it will change or wither. This can only be good for the game.
There is a simple equation running through all of this.
Administration + Company = austerity, minus debt.
It is a simple enough equation.
Take away the austerity and the equation doesn’t work.:
You end up with:
Administration + debt – austerity = -ve company
As for the second scenario – as I said – I think that would constitute a clear case of bringing the game into disrepute, in my view. There are existing rules for such a scenario that could be applied. Alas I expect the SFA to apply those rules – as in the past – with a venal mix of fear and favour.
I think Wallace may well be good for TRFC and could well get them back onto an even keel with enough time. But getting promoted while in administration – if it happened – would not be the clubs finest hour nor in their longer term interests I believe (‘Murraynomics’ again).
It would be down there. I would say.
I will finish with one honest sentiment:
Heartfelt wishes that your club avoids administration and wins promotion fairly for you, while making structural changes that stem its financial losses and allows it compete on a level playing field with the rest of scottish football. Honestly won success is the only sort worth a damn.
Re SSB
The umpties on SSB talk up a topic when the programme starts. Presumably the idea is to stimulate phone calls on that topic
So it is not unreasonable to assume that the frequency with which the same topic is peddled on successive nights is an indication of how strongly they are peddling the same agenda
Hence
When Lennon is verbally assaulted at Tyncastle the topic is considered worthy of top billing for one nights discussion on SSB
But
When Celtic are well beaten by Aberdeen in the Cup it was considered worthy of being the main topic on 4 successive nights (to date)
This would be perfectly in order if even half the emphasis was applauding Aberdeens performance and reviewing their prospects of being the second force in Scottish Football
Was that what we got?
Nope
The debate has focussed almost exclusively on “despair” and “misery” of Lennon and CFC fans and the duffers they have on the books
This nonsense is on a par with the Xmas time 7 day debate on SSB focussing on Celtic`s desperate need for a striker at a time when they were undefeated in the league having scored more and conceded less than any other club
ernie says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:23 pm
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”On the subject of boycotting the national team. I have a wee problem with that because the only bunch of football fans with whom I ever get to discuss any team on any subject without getting into the whataboutery is the âtartan armyâ. Off to Poland in March, looking forward to meeting the usual cross section of fitba team, including diddy, supporters. Not a fan of boycotts in general. Although it is true that the SFA are probably central to the problem with Sevco, SPFL fitba is but a small part of their remit and there is more to them than Regan and Ogilvie. Maybe I should go but not buy a ticket; thatâll learn âem?”
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I agree with you ernie , I’m not much of a fan of boycotting , but no one is listening to the fans . The Tartan Army are a fine group of guys and girls and do us proud . If they turn their back on the SFA , they might sit up and take notice . International press coverage of a Scotland match at Hampden with an attendance as low as a few hundred , would surely embarrass them into action . I know you couldn’t mark their necks with a blow torch sometimes but non SMSM coverage would be hard to ”manage”.
You’ve not really said much to argue with there resin and I’d say you’re basically expanding on some of the things Ive said, clearly we are on the same page. As I said, I’d support the rule if it wasn’t brought in mid season.
RyanGosling says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:07 pm
Fair enough point ecobhoy, and I agree with the point you are making on the abuse of FOI requests, and this person does sound mildly cretinous, but on what basis can you claim that this witch hunt is sectarian? I donât think that word should be thrown around without foundation. If only because it belittles genuine cases of sectarianism.
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I would suggest that you look at the numerous references to those public servants accused of corruption on the simple grounds that they have an Irish-sounding name ergo must be Catholics ergo are part of the worldwide conspiracy orchestrated from Rome to do-down Rangers and also the various comments of a sectarian nature made on various Darkside sites regarding the vicious and I believe ill-founded and untruthful campaign.
If you have any knowledge of my posting history you will know that I don’t throw a ‘sectarian’ accusation about unless I believe it is merited and I also accept that some Celtic supporters are as guilty as some Rangers supporters.
I am also amazed at a time of such deep financial peril for Rangers that their supporters are being deflected from the problems and unanswered questions at Ibrox to be sent on a wild-goose chase which appears to me to be a PR-inspired deflection.
What’s the big issue with attendances at Celtic Park? There are far more important things to be doing like making sure our football authorities are kept under scrutiny and held to account for their bending/changing of rules to placate the people at Edmiston Drive and their slavering lapdog followers in the media.
John Clarke,Neepheid et al.way to go.Every single one of us should be firing off emails,letters to our club chairmen,to Regan,Doncaster,Ogilvie and the rest to let them know we will not go meekly into the night but that we will be on their case to ensure our game,OUR GAME,is run for the benefit of ALL clubs and the fans who spend their hard earned cash to support them.
TSFM you have mail
Ecobhoy without wishing to start an argument none of those things are relevant to the post you made. Because there are rangers fans who are demonstrably sectarian does not mean that you should apply the term to any instances of rangers fans causing mischief. I’ve seen many of the posts you’ve written and know you don’t habitually throw it around, which is partly why I mentioned it. I think it is too easy a trap to fall into.
And frankly I’m amazed that you think there are discussions on this board I am prohibited from participating in based on what team I support. Allyjambo is the best example of someone clearly focused on his own team who has been free to comment without prejudice on whatever subject is being discussed at a given time. I don’t believe different rules should apply to me.
Ryan, I’m reluctant to recommend that anyone visit Football Tax Havens, but maybe you should. The ‘name” game is all too evident. Be warned, your eyes will bleed.
RyanGosling says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:55 pm
Ecobhoy without wishing to start an argument none of those things are relevant to the post you made. Because there are rangers fans who are demonstrably sectarian does not mean that you should apply the term to any instances of rangers fans causing mischief. Iâve seen many of the posts youâve written and know you donât habitually throw it around, which is partly why I mentioned it. I think it is too easy a trap to fall into.
And frankly Iâm amazed that you think there are discussions on this board I am prohibited from participating in based on what team I support. Allyjambo is the best example of someone clearly focused on his own team who has been free to comment without prejudice on whatever subject is being discussed at a given time. I donât believe different rules should apply to me.
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You are entitled to your opinion. However so am I and I seldom comment on rangers fans causing ‘mischief; as you term it. The campaign currently being waged is extremely dirty and goes way beyond ‘mischief’ which to me is something a naughty child might be involved because they lack the maturity and knowledge to realise the consequence of their actions.
I am intrigued by your statement: ‘And frankly Iâm amazed that you think there are discussions on this board I am prohibited from participating in based on what team I support.’ Where in my posts tonight have I said or even implied that?
Indeed you appear also to imply that my comments are ‘prejudiced’ in some way and you seem to suggest that I am also implying ‘different rules should apply’ to you.
Neither of those things are true and I have said nothing that I feel justifies your statements. All very strange IMO.
Ernie, well done for highlighting the attendance figures issue. I take the Irish non attenders argument on board but fundamentally if you’re comparing two matches the baseline has to be genuine attendees surely? There’s a 20k difference in some of them!
Ryan. For once I can say without fear or favour, that IMHO, you’re wrong! I cannot see how an accidental admin could happen – I gave an example the other day of an “act of god” but seriously Dundee, Gretna, livi the list goes on and on of over stretching to success. I’ve said before that automatic relegation does raise problems, not least in that as a rule once a club hits the buffers then relegation has a habit of following.
I do then agree with you about changing the rules midway, that is fair enough.
But then equally “board discretion” can call on a business plan forwarded to it 18 months ago. It appears the RFC master plan has fallen not at the final hurdle with the SPL on the horizon but fully 15 months short. Or was a further flotation always planned? Funny it wasn’t reported as such.
GeronimosCadillac says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:24 pm
3 4 Rate This
Esteban says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:18 pm
GeronimosCadillac says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:12 pm
Crowds come and go, historically. If crowds are down partly because there is no Sevco in the top flight, itâs a price worth paying.
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Agreed but there has to be an impact on the business model at some point where crowds and season book sales are on a downward trend. Iâm not decrying Celtic here Iâm just pointing out that they are paying a price that most of the other Premiership teams have largely avoided.
————————————————————————————————
That’s because most of the other premiership clubs have very low attendances both now and historically, almost all playing to crowds of under 7,000-8,000 and many much lower than that.
Ryan, further on the Football Tax Havens blog – I’d guess that only supportive comments are allowed. I’m not saddling you with responsibility for it but it is clearly a Rangers site, it’s poorly written, very weak on evidence and has a sectarian edge. It seems to be more interested spiting Celtic than devoting all that energy to the Rangers cause.
To the Jambos on the board, what’s this about?
scotDMsport â@scotDMsport 7m
In tomorrow’s Scottish Daily Mail, a new Queen of Hearts fronts the cash to save Tynecastle club for the fans.
Eco I took that implication from you responding to my post by saying that rangers fans had enough to worry about (paraphrasing), and read that as you saying that I should be worrying about rangers rather than picking you up on something I thought you shouldn’t have said. If I’m wrong I apologise. I didn’t imply that you were prejudiced and if you took that from my comment then you were mistaken,
Smugas, I maybe am coming at it from a different angle. Having been exposed to what should have been very thorough financial planning time and time again through work only to see it unravel within weeks, I have sympathy with clubs and any other institutions who enter difficult times, even if through their own ineptitude. I guess the difference between what you’re saying and what I’m saying is that I am willing to countenance an accidental admin. If I took your perspective and did not allow for such a possibility, then I would agree with you and wouldn’t have qualified my views on the proposed rule change.
Eco on re reading your post you may have been referring to the campaign of football tax havens rather than me on this board – if that’s the case then please disregard my subsequent posts on the matter.
A wee request for assistance from someone on another site.
“Looking for some/any info ghuys,
Club financial control panel 2010/11 decisions to punish clubs/assocations that renaged on debt social or business.
We know the Malaga decision the following year set prescedents but an earlier example of FFP enforcement would help big time”.
RyanGosling says:
February 13, 2014 at 10:32 pm
Eco I took that implication from you responding to my post by saying that rangers fans had enough to worry about (paraphrasing), and read that as you saying that I should be worrying about rangers rather than picking you up on something I thought you shouldnât have said. If Iâm wrong I apologise. I didnât imply that you were prejudiced and if you took that from my comment then you were mistaken,
=========================================================================
When I refer to ‘Rangers fans’ that means in general and obviously in the plural. If I was specifically referring to you then I would say so.
Usually when I make an apology I do so without qualification because I have got something wrong or made a mistake and I hope I never feel the need to use the line: ‘ If Iâm wrong I apologise’. I know when I’ve got it wrong and apologise and if I think I’m right I don’t apologise but will debate the issue and sometimes after that debate I change my position and always try to acknowledge that fact.
You also haven’t addressed my rebuttal of the statement you made with respect to me which was: ‘And frankly Iâm amazed that you think there are discussions on this board I am prohibited from participating in based on what team I support.;
I will ask again – where did I say or even imply that you are prohibited from taking part in any discussions on this board?
:
You also haven’t pointed out how you formed the impression that ‘different rules should apply’ to you as opposed to any other poster. And despite what you say it is obvious from the context that you believe I am the one responsible for your impression. So please explain why you have come to that conclusion.
I can countenance an accidental admin, but equally I can understand the purpose of a rule, brought in at the right time of course, barring promotion to newco’s that shed debt, possibly to newco’s in general (buy outs would then wait to close season) and possibly to all admins addressed via cva. Seems simple, logical even.
RyanGosling says:
February 13, 2014 at 10:38 pm
Eco on re reading your post you may have been referring to the campaign of football tax havens rather than me on this board â if thatâs the case then please disregard my subsequent posts on the matter.
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I think my post was crystal clear that I was referring to FTH. And yet again you seem to place the onus back on me as if I am responsible for the misconceptions you have arrived at. However I think I have leant a valuable lesson tonight.
Eco I used the phrase “if I’m wrong” because I didn’t know exactly what you meant, as I clearly said. If I had known exactly what you meant I could have clearly offered an apology or stood by my original statement.
Rangers fans would normally mean plural, but in the context you said it, it was easily interpreted as referring to me as we had been in a back and forth. I had no reason to try to infer that for no reason, I did address your rebuttal; if you had been referring to me commenting on your post, it would logically imply that you thought I had no business doing so. Once again, I came to that conclusion because in response to my comment on your post you said rangers fans should be focused on their own crisis.
Much of this has been a case of crossed wires and we’ve taken up too much of the blog with it. I attempted to be reasonable throughout, offering apology if I had misinterpreted, but you merely criticised me for not knowing if I’d got it wrong. I stand by all I have said, including qualified apologies, so let us all move on.
paulsatim says:
February 13, 2014 at 10:27 pm
To the Jambos on the board, whatâs this about?
scotDMsport â@scotDMsport 7m
In tomorrowâs Scottish Daily Mail, a new Queen of Hearts fronts the cash to save Tynecastle club for the fans.
===============================================
Caught something on the news but I was on the phone so didn’t catch much.
Apparently she’ll go on the board as an exec and after 3 years give her shareholding to a Jambo fan group. Gertainly sounds like good news.
Changing rules halfway through a season is best avoided I agree. But let’s not be inflexible. Imagine a change in the law that creates a new additional form of insolvency regime (call it “Campbellship” for the sake of argument). Should the SPFL change its rules midseason to take account of that? Yes.
Were the SPFL not just looking at rule changes? Yes. Did they make any? Apparently not. If they had, from when might those changes have been effective? Who knows. They tell us nothing.
A while ago on here I posed the question “why do the football authorities levy any sort of punishment at all for insolvency events?”
The best answer I could come up with was because it was an attempt to rectify what is presumably seen as a prior advantage having been gained on the pitch. It is not a punishment for reckless or optimistic financial planning (although that might often go hand in hand with the advantage). It is a punishment for having spent more than you had – whether you actually spent on players or on giving money away to charity. If QPFC go bust after all it is not likely to have been because they were blowing the budget on getting better players on to the pitch is it? Nonetheless – they suffer the same penalty as the rest.
There is no discussion or consideration of good insolvencies or bad insolvencies. Degree of culpability is irrelevent. (I did however suggest that account could be taken of the degree of “badness” by linking the penalty to the pence in the pound paid in any cva if we wanted to take into account such things).
In every insolvency, the innocent suffer. That is the nature of insolvency. But there is no reason to allow the insolvent to prosper at their expense. If there was a desire to allow “good but unfortunate” insolvents promotion, why even have a points penalty at all – after all it wasn’t their fault.
Anyway as has been pointed out – there has not been one instance I can think of in Scottish football of a “good” insolvency. There has been financial “blame” in all of them as far as I can see. However in the wider world I have seen it happen. Bad things do happen to good people.
paulsatim says: February 13, 2014 at 10:27 pm
To the Jambos on the board, whatâs this about?
scotDMsport â@scotDMsport 7m
In tomorrowâs Scottish Daily Mail, a new Queen of Hearts fronts the cash to save Tynecastle club for the fans.
==============================
We got some details today about the funding of the CVA (Ann Budge – ex Newell and Budge for those with IT backgrounds) together with the plans to raise the required level of working capital and repayment of the original capital sum over a 5 year period.
There seems to be a general welcome for the proposals with a few reservations about the timescales.
Campbellsmoney -“in every insolvency the innocent suffer” – would you think that still to be the case if TRFC went into admin owing nobody but RIFC money? Because I for one wouldn’t consider RIFC to be “innocent”, not by the longest stretch of the imagination.
Two things on that RG.
Your example of the odd ‘ internal’ administration in the TRFC case does indeed prick our suspicious natures!
RIFC not innocent – agreed. But guilty of what?
EDIT: I don’t mean their origins via sevco 5088 by the way. They’re guilty as sin itself on that score!
RyanGosling says:
February 13, 2014 at 11:08 pm
‘You said rangers fans should be focused on their own crisis’.
==================================================
Again you have misinterpreted what I actually said. I didn’t tell Rangers supporters what they should be doing – that’s not my role in life and I think I know enough about Rangers Supporters to know that they generally ignore good-intentioned advice if it comes from anyone outwith their particular Blue Camp faction.
Just to remind you – what I actually stated was: ‘I am also amazed at a time of such deep financial peril for Rangers that their supporters are being deflected from the problems and unanswered questions at Ibrox to be sent on a wild-goose chase which appears to me to be a PR-inspired deflection.’
However this is going nowhere and in the interests of the blog I will leave things as they stand as I am quite clear what has been said and implied.
Smugas in this case I mean they are not innocent as they are the ultimate party responsible for the entity running up the losses – they own it. Therefore why should anyone have sympathy for, or consider innocent, a party that allowed a branch of themselves to run up losses? To give an example of the parent company, I feel no sympathy for parents who allow their children to run up massive bills on iPads etc. They are the parents and should be responsible for their children. Likewise, RIFC should be responsible for the behaviour of TRFC. it’s all corporate shenanigans to take the piss in my view. I didn’t buy shares in RIFC for that reason.
hamemadesoup says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:48 pm
jean7brodie says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:24 pm
2 0 Rate This
GeronimosCadillac says:
February 13, 2014 at 8:12 pm
What is an issue is the falling attendances at Celtic Park which are in free fall and wonât get any better after Saturdayâs SC KO.
_________________________________________________
Could there be another reason? Disgust at the state of things we are witnessing?
ââââââââââââââââââ
Superb Jean , nail hit squarely on the head . Fans are absolutely sick of it . I am sick to the back teeth of it . I even stopped watching it so much on TV . Up until around 2yrs ago , if I couldnât get to Celtics games , I would pop down to Easter Road ( the good lady is a hibby) and catch a game there . The appetite for game I had as a kid was still there .
Not anymore . Scottish football is in a chronic state , caused almost entirely by the authorities that govern the game , and at this time , they appear to be untouchable . Theyâre killing the game I love and there isnât much I or anyone else can do . Plans were put in place to the detriment of the game and theyâll be forced thru to the end , by hook or by crook .
We need changes at the top . Does anyone here think that Doncaster et al are close to competent ?
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hamemadesoup & Jean,
That’s my sentiments as well. I can’t remember the last time I actually watched Sportscene, as it’s on at a ludicrous time at night, and to be honest, it’s also pretty boring as well, too cosy for me!
Jean is right, we’re witnessing things that just astound me in particular.
I like to think I’m an average person who goes through his life in a lawful way. I always pay my bills on time, sometimes to the detriment of getting the family through the month till the next pay day, but that is the standards I was brought up to respect.
Standards? Where are they now in 2014?
I guess that’s where we are now, there are no standards!
It makes me sad to see men in suits making so much money out of a game of football, especially when most of them couldn’t even hit a Barn Door from 2 yards!!!!
It makes me even more sadder when I see men in tracksuits, like AM, trousering ÂŁ850,000 a year. That’s why Scottish Football is in a chronic state , and also why the game is being killed in this country.
It’s an absolute disgrace that the SFA and both SPL & SPFL, and even the now long gone Longmuir led SFL, have let this situation go on for 2 years now.
What worries me is the arrogant way these bodies (past and present) are communicating with the public.
Their communication is non existant! JC, good luck getting a reply from your letters to the SPFL & SFA.
These incumbents on the SFA & SPFL are certainly the biggest culprits guilty of killing the game in Scotland over the last 2 years.
The sad thing is, they are just about to stick a second dagger in to try and protect the Green/ Blue franchise which they hope will attract Sky/ BT Megabucks to plough Billions in each year for 4 live transmissions each season!
My own thoughts are that if RFC were allowed to die with dignity 2 years ago, we would be over the initial grief and going by the last 2 seasons, TV companies would be more than willing to support the SPFL.
The last 2 seasons have been great as far as I can see, especially in Cup games! At the moment, Scottish Football is doing ok, it’s beginning to find it’s own feet and playing within it’s means, fairly and squarely.
Unfortunately, as usual, the majority seem to be happy. The minority seem hell bent on dragging us all back!
Armageddon? I don’t think so Mr Regan.
As for Mr Doncaster, re-write the rules if you want. The first liquidation was bad enough, if you want to go through all that hassle again, well, bring it on!
Added some info on the funding page which I hope stimulates some more discussion.
Thanks Ecobhoy!
……and EasyJambo!
No RIFC would not be innocent in the sense I meant it. TRFC is a wholly owned subsidiary – completely under the control and direction of RIFC.
Happy Valentines Day one and all,
http://i.imgur.com/5t2Iw.gif
Campbellsmoney says:
February 13, 2014 at 11:13 pm
The principle and practice of points deduction began with Neil Warnock.
Leicester City â When Leicester restructured their debt after going into administration in 2002, enabling them to hold on to a string of Premiership stars who ordinarily would have been sold to stay afloat, they gained promotion to the Premiership, at the expense of Sheffield United, who had to make do with a play-off place. After United failed to gain promotion Warnock revealed his anger at the Leicester situation. Incensed that City could have got into such a state yet continued to compete at the top of the table, with no punishment, Warnock complained to the press, claiming United should have Leicester’s place in the Premiership and the club should have been relegated or booted out the League. Any team now going into administration is automatically deducted 10 points, although even with this punishment Leicester would still have been two points clear of United, albeit with a far stronger team as a result of the move into administration
There is a research paper here at
http://www.academia.edu/172825/Points_deduction_as_a_sanction_against_English_football_clubs_a_dysfunctional_approach
where it suggests 10 points began in 2003 which ties in with Warnock’s complaint.
Aulheid,
I’ve sent you a short PM on FFP and look forward to your reply.
Thanks in advance.
Sannoffymess…..
easyJambo on February 13, 2014 at 11:15 pm
7 0 Rate This
paulsatim says: February 13, 2014 at 10:27 pm
To the Jambos on the board, whatâs this about?
———-
Nice with a good news story about the fitba for once! A fan putting her money where her mouth is.
Must be a good day for Hearts.
Danish Pastry on February 14, 2014 at 5:37 am
0 0 Rate This
To the Jambos on the board, whatâs this about?
âââ-
Nice with a good news story about the fitba for once! A fan putting her money where her mouth is.
Must be a good day for Hearts.
_____________________
Ann Budge has been well reported to be funding Bidco through Hearts sources for many months. It is indicative of the MSM that they only report on ‘other clubs’ if the news is blindingly obvious. They could have dug up this information months ago but we don’t have investigative journalism and we don’t have journalists interested in events outwith Glasgow.
GoosyGoosy says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:36 pm
=========================
Heard the 1st ten minutes of SSB, which is normally as much as I can stand – it goes off as soon as I come out the shower. Mark Guidi spoke in a tone as if his opinions on players actually mattered and should be listened to. It goes without saying it was all Celtic players getting panned. To be honest the general standard of caller who phones in, and the agenda ridden pundits who are on, deserve each other. And yes, I deserve everything I get for even giving them ten minutes a night!
Happy Friday everyone!
Ryan @ 11.39
Damn you Ryan and your good answers!
Where I was coming from was a suspicion you were trying to separate the corporate shenanigans from events on the park. Winning the league by a country mile is actually permissible if a/ your profitable doing it or b/ you use your own money to do it, as you say that TRFC have done (note the funds were shares, never loans). If you do it (win by virtue of a superior team) and then pull an insolvency event to skip responsibilities then one has to question the motive. Banning promotion to a newco who had shed debt in the process (the original proposal a la Charlotte in September) seemed a logical step to avoid this.
upthehoops says:
February 14, 2014 at 7:17 am
1 0 Rate This
GoosyGoosy says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:36 pm
#########
SSB attempts to provoke listeners into reacting to childish jibes. It basically works on the following ‘indisputable truths’
Scottish football is in a desperate place, mainly because Govan is not represented in the top flight.
Celtic are failing their supporters by not sweeping all before them. This failure is caused by the lack of competition provided by a team from the south side.
Celtic are unable to attract top quality players because there’s no derby game against a team who are currently sweeping all before them in the 3rd tier of Scottish football.
Celtic are unwilling to spend eye watering amounts of money on players because they don’t have to because they will sweep all before them…
Aberdeen, Hibernian, Dundee Utd and Motherwell are incapable of mounting a challenge of any sort against Celtic. Only one club can do this…guess who?
Celtic should be competing with the EPL for players, despite the vast gulf in income, after all that’s what another team used to do…
Scotland is becoming a footballing backwater, caused almost exclusively by allowing the most dignified team in the country to be bought by Craig Whyte.
‘Liquidation’ does not exist
‘Administration’ happened but you’re only using that word because you hate ‘rangers’
Scottish football will never again scale the dizzy heights of previous achievements.
Fergus McCann was a visionary sage who was lauded by the press but vilified by the Celtic support.
David Murray’s name and ‘rangers’ must never be used in the same sentence.
‘Living within your means’ is an illusory pipe-dream as football and debt are natural bedfellows.
‘We know that domestic violence increases, A&E’S are full to bursting, prisons and courts are full to bursting, but that’s the social side, football needs this game!’ ©Hugh Keevins
‘John from Uddingston’ must be allowed to make his cryptically constructed comments without interruption or contradiction.
This programme is a parody of other football phone-ins’. It is clearly struggling to justify it’s existence amongst the new media. Like the pale replica of it’s favourite club, this programme’s days are numbered.
RyanGosling says:at 11:17 pm
…
Campbellsmoney -âin every insolvency the innocent sufferâ â would you think that still to be the case if TRFC went into admin owing nobody but RIFC money? Because I for one wouldnât consider RIFC to be âinnocentâ, not by the longest stretch of the imagination.
………………………………………………………………………………………..
Here are 4 or 5 categories of innocents in the constant sleight of hand that has been TRFC and RIFC.
If TRFC go into admin and RIFC undertake a controlled pre-pack with the help of RCO and his cabal then real people will be hurt.
– The fans who bought shares whose value has plummeted because of the management of the funds they contributed
– The institutions who bought shares for innocent investors who trusted them to invest their funds wisely
– The ordinary fans who trusted these people to run their football team efficiently
– All the fiscally responsible SPFL teams who the overfunded and spendthrift blue XI have played in their triumphant return up the leagues
– And maybe some unpaid tax at the end too?
helpmaboab says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:49 pm
Whatâs the big issue with attendances at Celtic Park?
——
I don’t think it’s a big issue … the main point is that the MSM glibly report figures which are patently false. Real attendance figures must be available on the day for H&S purposes, so I just wonder why the media are happy to report weekly works of fiction from Parkhead and Ibrox?
As for FOI requests – people often send them in simply to cause a pain in the arse for an organisation which they feel has somehow wronged them, knowing that it will take a lot of several people’s time to come up with an answer to a silly question which must be answered.
Sannyoffmessetc 5.17
I replied to you the other day saying go ahead.
If you replied to that it never arrived as Message Box full.
I have made room.
Accidental administration is a tricky idea, but it is easily possible to be forced into administration by others.
Imagine a wee team is drawn away to a top flight team (or Sevco) in the cup in January. That wee team is then expecting a windfall from the cup and may spend a bit more, expecting the cash to come in the week after the cup tie. They might not even buy players. The money could go anywhere.
Then after the cup tie, imagine if the bigger club either chooses to delay payment, or goes into admin themselves. The wee team suddenly has bills which through no fault of its own it can’t pay.
Something for Albion to think about if they’re tempted to splash the cash before Sevco stump up.
davythelotion on February 14, 2014 at 8:08 am
16 0 Rate This
——–
Brilliant Davy. I listen to the podcasts. Mostly keech this week though.
On the whole, Daziel is not pundit material and Guidi & Keevins are probably two most unpleasant people on radio â shouting down fans and bickering with them.
At the risk of mega pelters, I do reckon Jim Delahunt is the best of the hosts. The shows he’s in charge of are usually the better ones.
SSB recently posted a self-congratulatory tweet boasting a sizable increase in the listenership.