David Low
represents a highly significant component of the history of Celtic FC and consequently a highly significant component of how Scottish Football has panned out in the last 20 years.
As Fergus McCann’s Aide-de-Camp, Low was instrumental in helping him formulate and implement the plans which ultimately allowed control of the club to be wrested from the Kelly and White families. Low also helped McCann to rebuild and regenerate Celtic as a modern football club.
His views are unsurprisingly Celtic-centred, and this interview reveals his ambition for the club to ultimately leave Scottish Football behind. That may or may not be at odds with many of our readers, but the stark analysis of the realities facing football in this country may resonate.
He provides a window on the pragmatism of the likes of McCann, Celtic and many other clubs in respect of the demise of Rangers. He pours scorn on Dave King’s vision of a cash-rich Rangers future, and provides little comfort for those who seek succour for our failing national sport, believing that Scotland will find it impossible to emerge from the football backwater in an increasingly global industry.
Agree or not with Low’s prognosis, it is difficult to deny his compelling analysis of our place in the football world.
Alisdair Lamont tweeting that Graham Wallace is on £320k pa plus a 100% bonus.
This is increased by £25k a as Rangers move up a league.
Worth every penny IMO.
RyanGosling says:
May 2, 2014 at 10:21 pm
Essexbeancounter- was the payment by debit card, and if so, did John Clark have to use the assets of John Clarke to secure the facilities?
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Ryan…probably a well used “provi cheque”….since normal banking facilities were not made available on account of a poor credit rating…then Wonga came on the scene!
No1 Bob says:
May 2, 2014 at 11:05 pm
Alisdair Lamont tweeting that Graham Wallace is on £320k pa plus a 100% bonus.
====================================================================
As much as the CEO of ICAS…if I recall correctly!
paulsatim says:
May 2, 2014 at 11:03 pmEXCLUSIVE: Old Firm clash could be staged in Dubai
——————————————————————————
Any chance this could be made a permanent arrangement……….. 👿
ecobhoy says:
May 2, 2014 at 7:47 pm
To take another slant on things – what name is on the various insurance policies in force at Ibrox and, in particular, the liability cover for employees and the public. I would be very surprised if it was in the name of the ‘club’ because as we all know it isn’t a legal entity
ecobhoy
Around the end of January 1971, I was working for a well known Insurance Company in St Vincent Street Glasgow, when I received a call from Alexander Stenhouse Insurance Brokers 145 St Vincent Street, Glasgow (just up the road) requesting a qoute for an increase in public liability insurance cover from £125,000 to £1,000,000. In those days that kind of sum needed to be referred to a superintendent due to a requirement for reinsurance to be looked at, so I pulled the file and placed it on his desk without saying a word.
The policy was in the name of Rangers Football Club Ltd, and he and I both knew instantly the reason for the request.
Your post reminded me. 🙁
parttimearab says:
May 2, 2014 at 11:16 pm
Good idea, but wont be holding my breath. Who knows if they will ever be back in prem?
JohnBhoy says:
May 2, 2014 at 10:55 pm
RIP Sandy Jardine. Like a true blue you stood up for your club to the very end.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That he did. But I prefer to think of him in his prime playing for Scotland with Danny McGrain on the other side
occam says:
May 2, 2014 at 10:13 pm
Trust is the key.
Trust has been stolen from all fans and clubs, and that theft has left a feeling of deep mistrust.
It is no longer acceptable for the SFA to sit on its hands, hide behind nameless press releases, and leave clubs to investigate and miss-manage themselves.
If a rule, within the myriad of rules, is found to have a loophole then that loophole must be closed not debated infinitum and then left as it is even though everyone can see it is useless.
If a club suffers an insolvency event then any directors MUST resign from any positions within the SPFL or the SFA. They should also be barred from standing for such positions for a period of 4 years after the date of exiting administration or in the event of a, how shall we say it, liquidation then they are permanently barred from standing for office. This would prevent the ridiculous position we now have of a President of the SFA who has been on the boards of two clubs while they were spectacularly miss-managed. This has led to the crisis currently engulfing our sport.
We do not need these people in our sport. The people we do need are the ones who will protect all clubs and put in place rules and regulations to properly hold wrong doers to account while protecting the integrity of the sport itself.
Trust cannot be bought, and it cannot be taken or given. No it has to be earned. The people in charge have wantonly abused the trust of the paying public and that is not acceptable.
They have been found guilty in the court of public opinion and should go.
Put simply no one TRUSTS them.
Transparency of the rules would greatly assist in trust being restored. No more “at the discretion of the board” nonsense for that is what it is. It is a caveat to cover the most unpleasant eventualities and is easily open to corruption which yet again undermines trust.
A fund should be created to pay for external investigations into serious allegations. These investigations cannot be undertaken by the very people the complaints are against. That undermines trust. If a streamlining of the SFA organisation has to occur to pay for it then so be it.
Radical change is required now within our sport to bring it out of smoky committee rooms and into the light of day. Some of those individuals will not like it in the light because they have to much to hide. They should go for there is no place for them and no place for the people who attempt to protect them.
RyanGosling says:
May 2, 2014 at 7:48 pm
Ryan, I apologise to you and any other RFC(IL)/TRFC posters on here if I offended you with my “Top 10” hits of the 60’s from yesterday but it was not malice towards you or your club/company. I hope you took it as banter as the mods deemed it fit for posting and obviously through your balanced postings, they also assumed you would take it in the spirit it was meant for, purely football banter.
We urgently need posters from your club/company on here to maintain a balance but posters like yourself are few and far between. I honestly believe you are deeply hurt inside at the way your club is conducting themselves and wish that they could turn it around quickly but I am of the opinion that your club are many years away from where they wish to be as to where they are now.
My personal opinion is that your club should resign from the league, re-evaluate themselves, draw up a sensible business plan and present it to the SPFL/SFA and if acceptable, start at the bottom to climb up the leagues.
If this sounds harsh, I apologise again but there are more worthy solvent clubs in the queue to join the “big boys”
BTW – I am not a Celtic supporter.
Screwtop Thompson says:
May 2, 2014 at 11:32 pm
1 0 Rate This
JohnBhoy says:
May 2, 2014 at 10:55 pm
RIP Sandy Jardine. Like a true blue you stood up for your club to the very end.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That he did. But I prefer to think of him in his prime playing for Scotland with Danny McGrain on the other side
———————————————————————————————————————-
And I screamed abuse at both of them for 90 minutes at Pittodrie as you rarely got any breaks from any of the two of them.
Iamacant- rangers withdrawing from the league and starting again…dramatic. Dramatic move. I’d say it would have had my support two years ago, but now…yes, good move. But whereas two years ago we could have done it with a degree of credibility, that option has now sadly passed. Do you think we could do it now, maintaining the existing support? Sadly I don’t. I think our only option now is to do our best to ignore mr king, hope that mr Wallace can implement his plans without impediment, hope that mr Wallace recognises that survival, rather than beating Celtic, is our goal over the next few years, and build a sustainable club.
James Doleman- i have missed you. I posted several times giving my point of view and was not chastised by you, so I’m glad to see you are back. If I am the sole person on this forum not entitled to give my opinion in your eyes, then I apologise for having offended you, and will endeavour in future not to refer to myself or my own opinions. I’m sorry.
RyanGosling says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:10 am
Ryan, quick response.but not unexpected as we all have an affinity to our club
I don’t see your club/company withdrawing its application/existing membership as being dramatic, I see it as being extremely sensible in the current economic climate, especially when you see the abuse your club/company has taken. I see it as beneficial to Scottish football as a whole. What happened to Armageddon?
The clubs in the lower leagues definitely benefited from your club/company participation, of that there is no doubt.
Celtic v. Rangers in Dubai…
=======================
In a word : bollox !!
That’s the fluffiest tailed squirrel we’ve seen in quite a while though. 🙄
justshatered says:
May 2, 2014 at 11:43 pm
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Agree with you. With 1 caveat.
There is a law of unintended consequences to consider:
Director A runs club BFC into the ground. Director C turns up and does everything reasonable in her power to fix things. C fails. Club is crashed. A should be banned not C. C should be allowed an appeal on the basis of pre-existing difficulties.
Suppose (hypothetically) Anne Budge presides over a resurgent Hearts who then get sued out of existence on the basis of a spurious challenge from a malicious entity e.g. over a player contract that they can’t afford to defend? Something along the lines of what IA is effecting at the COS next Tuesday in point of fact? Someonbe like SDM would not hesitate to employ such a tactic, I reckon.
Always beware the law of unintended consequences.
Apologies for that post Ryan, was uncalled for.
I see the guy who lives up the same close as Oldgold and Enkafid has retired for the evening. Possibly tending to some Campbellsmoney-inflicted wounds.
When he comes back tomorrow don’t engage please. Let it pass.
James Doleman says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:54 am
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Apologies for that post Ryan, was uncalled for.
___________________________________________
Maybe I was too quick then too.
These things happen.
Your post did look confrontational.
But I appreciate that meaning and context can easily be lost in written text, so appreciate if your intention was otherwise.
parttimearab says:
May 2, 2014 at 11:16 pm
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paulsatim says:
May 2, 2014 at 11:03 pmEXCLUSIVE: Old Firm clash could be staged in Dubai
——————————————————————————
Any chance this could be made a permanent arrangement……….. 👿
_________________________________________________
Nah. That;s just kicking the problem over the fence.
I’m thinking Crimea makes more sense. Let Putin & salmond get together and sort it out between them.
Firmly agree TSFM, but what took you so long to out the squirrel? 😀
TSFM?
A reasoned, well-evidenced argument on a topic that has been, and has continued to be, a pre-occupation of this site since its inception and its getting the “don’t engage please” treatment. “Let it pass”. The impudent attempt at offering an alternative narrative i presume you’re referring to there? Oh dear.
And you wonder why this site has the reputation that it has?
burghbhoy says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:16 am
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TSFM?
A reasoned, well-evidenced argument on a topic that has been, and has continued to be, a pre-occupation of this site since its inception and its getting the “don’t engage please” treatment. “Let it pass”. The impudent attempt at offering an alternative narrative i presume you’re referring to there? Oh dear.
And you wonder why this site has the reputation that it has?
_________________________________
I can only presume that Burghbhoy is objecting to the ‘green’ within the traffic light on the funding status. Any chance we could make this an approved SFA blue for a while instead? – in the interest of balance of course ! BBC shortbread should be able to advise us on such matters I am sure 😈
OK …. Are we really going to go 24 hours here without challenging the veracity of what we are ‘telt’ by our mainstream hacks??
While we pant in anticipation of apocalyptic happenings, squirrels, slugs and wanderers seek to divert attention….
If the focus switches to ‘league domination’, does it become a good weekend to leak ‘bad news’?
No hiding place!!!
Why oh Why have Sky/BBC/BtSport not covered any of the Scottish Championship games tomorrow? Apparently three teams have the chance for promotion to the top division, this would have been exciting to watch. Unfortunately they are too busy watching the Newclub from Govan climb the divisions below them. shame on them. I wish all the teams involved the best of luck.
RyanGosling says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:10 am
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Iamacant- rangers withdrawing from the league and starting again…dramatic. Dramatic move. I’d say it would have had my support two years ago, but now…yes, good move. But whereas two years ago we could have done it with a degree of credibility, that option has now sadly passed. Do you think we could do it now, maintaining the existing support? Sadly I don’t. I think our only option now is to do our best to ignore mr king, hope that mr Wallace can implement his plans without impediment, hope that mr Wallace recognises that survival, rather than beating Celtic, is our goal over the next few years, and build a sustainable club.
_______________________________________
Ryan, I feel for you.
The word ‘hope’ appears too many times in that paragraph.
It is interchangeable with the word ‘pray’.
And what is needed is some syntax involving the word ‘do’.
I do my best to try and wear Atticus Finch ‘moccasins’ in Ibrox matters. But I have to confess that in wondering what I would do if faced with the King/GW season ticket dilemma affecting TRFC fans and all that has gone on, I have to conlcue that I would consider the options, look at the individuals, the history, the context, accept that there is no certainty of a 100% correct decision in such volatile circumestances, knowing that whatever I decided would be derided and could quite possibly turn out to be the wrong decision, before finally getting of the fence and making my final committed decision. For btter or worse. Good or bad.
Which would be to buy a season ticket.
For Tynecastle.
I see The Record has ‘Golden Graham’ as the front page headline. Are they playing on the Ripping Yarns title? If so, it doesn’t work — Oor Graham is nae Gordon Ottershaw!
Tomorrow we’ll hopefully have Alistair’s contract details plus share holding on the front page. See how his legned status holds up after that. Then they can go through the big earners one by one …
A bit OT, but this looks like it might be a pretty amusing film/documentary. Next Goal Wins.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/10804794/Next-Goal-Wins-star-Jaiyah-Saelua-is-the-transgender-John-Terry-and-plays-in-the-worlds-worst-international-team.html
Ryan Gosling,
I think most of the criticism aimed at Rangers on here, is directed at previous ownership and executives. David Murray, in particular, and Directors such as Campbell Ogilvie are blamed by the wider Scottish Football community for the issues of the last few years, and in particular for the widespread cheating since 1998.
That isn’t having a go at the decent Rangers supporters who contribute on here. Many have expressed sympathy with decent Rangers fans for the plight Murray has landed on their club . Most on the site would welcome more fair minded Rangers supporters, however halfwits like the guy who keeps on reinventing himself and pathetically trying to deflect away from important issues by debating like Stanley Unwin on speed, do decent Rangers supporters no favours.
There is still a rawness on both sides, but much of that comes down to the incompetence and duplicitous actions of the SFA and SPL. It is very difficult for supporters to admit their club cheated . I understand that. Any straw will be clutched that allows for tax evasion and illegal dual contracts , not to be considered as cheating. The LNS ” no sporting advantage” judgement was the liferaft that Rangers supporters needed, but was seen by the rest of Scottish Football as absolutely absurd.
The SFA and SPL have utterly failed to protect Rangers from Murray’s toxic ownership and policies. They also failed to protect Rangers from a patently unacceptable owner in the form of Craig Whyte , and on the basis of what we know so far failed yet again to protect Rangers , with a 5 way agreement that appears to have absolutely no teeth. Rangers though have contributed to their own demise by having owners of such incompetence, with total disregard for ethical behaviour.
However the SFA & SPL have a wider duty to protect every club in Scotland. Those clubs who have played by the rules, respected their rivals and managed their affairs responsibly. The SFA & SPL completely failed these clubs and continue to fail by a bizarre refusal to bring Murray & Ogilvie to account. They ( SPL) also failed to appeal the LNS judgement , and facilitated it with Bryson’s incredible contribution.
The real problem , and why the rawness lingers , is that the authorities have effectively condoned tax evasion, deception and massive rule breaking . That cost many honest clubs trophies & revenue. None of that is the fault of Rangers fans, however the rest of us are having our intelligence insulted by the SFA and SPL’s duplicitous actions
So many words on a question that has such a clear answer.
1. This is a site frequented by folk who have a strong, often visceral dislike of Rangers FC.
2. This is a site that has a deserved reputation for being frequented by folk who have a strong, often visceral dislike of Rangers FC.
3. Due to 1 & 2, supporters of Rangers FC do not wish to engage here.
This is traditionally where the example of the pet Rangers fan on the site is wheeled out, patted on the head, and everyone says “ah, but we like him!”
Go on. Do it. You know you want to 🙂
Anyway, I’ll leave you chaps to it.
I’ve enjoyed the wee experiment of expressing some ideas, not just the TUPE legislation, over the last couple of months, with a celtic moniker and throwing a few “sevcos” and “old Rangers” in, and seeing the thumbs-up roll in.
Genuine thanks to those willing to engage in the actual discussion, which I always enjoy, as long as it lasts that is, before TSFM rolls in to shut it down (maybe if I’d hung around he’d have start a whole new thread to house my offerings again? Will never forget that compliment :-))
burghbhoy says:
May 3, 2014 at 8:29 am
1 3 Rate This
… (maybe if I’d hung around he’d have start a whole new thread to house my offerings again? Will never forget that compliment :-))
———
The The Bonkers Thread?
(You do realise that turning up pretending to be something you aren’t is very TRFC? Par for the course, apparently 😀 )
burghbhoy says:
May 3, 2014 at 8:07 am
———————————–
I think you forgot a point:
4. This is site frequented by supporters of many Clubs who do not hide their allegiances to their own clubs because they rightly pride themselves in the history and traditions those clubs hold or claim, irrelevant of size or sporting achievements.
There, fixed that for you….
I’m sorry to be pedantic about the TUPE issue. I have said before that I have no significant interest in the OCNC debate. However, due to past personal experiences associated with TUPE legislation, I am genuinely interested in knowing whether there is any actual, documentary evidence that Oldco staff transferred to Newco via the TUPE route. I obviously realise that it does have implications for OCNC, but that it not why I am asking. To avoid any blood pressure problems for all our readers, I shall re-assume a somnolent posture and a negative answer unless somebody comes up with something more than, “It must have happened – Charlie said it did!”
So you see, Ryan, we have two Rangers/TRFC supporters contributing these past few days. One, yourself, wishes to hold out an olive branch and seek reconciliation and a solution to the problems Scottish football faces. The other comes onto the blog, disguised as someone he would consider his enemy, to merely disrupt, then when outed, can only respond by insulting the blog itself.
In my opinion, intelligent people don’t try to defend the indefensible, at least they stop once they realise this is the case. At the same time, the vast majority of people don’t like to lose, or to read and debate in a forum that has the ability to deliver a telling riposte to even the best thought out arguments – if they are wrong. People generally do not want to be told of a loved one’s failings or crimes, and would rather turn a deaf ear than face up to the reality that something, or someone, they love, respect, revere, has indeed done a great wrong. This I believe is true of people from all walks in society, not just Rangers supporters or even football fans in general.
I doubt any more than one or two Rangers supporters (and I do mean Rangers supporters, for you all support TRFC because, to you, they are Rangers) will ever join us here, to debate in a respectful and serious manner, unless, and until, something is done by the people that run your club to acknowledge and repair the damage done to Scottish football by your club since the days of David Murray. For only then can they debate on an equal footing without having to continually face an understandable barrage of ‘you’re the bad guys’.
Good luck to you Ryan, I hope that one day you have a club deserving of your support.
I can’t believe the amount of guff about TUPE, last night. It’s really simple. John Clarke was the trading form of the poster, who then changed it to John Clark. As a sole poster, there are no employees to protect, even if there was a change of business operator. All this nonsense about the ‘e’ acting independently is just smoke and mirrors. The more interesting point is the original, incorrect registration of John Clarke on RTC. If I remember rightly, John was challenged at the time and admitted the admin error due to an FFF (fat finger failure). Nothing further was done about this. Fair enough, you might think. John then moved across to here but blatantly continued with the erroneous nomenclature. Rather than facing action from TSFM, John was, only recently, assisted in correcting said error by the blog authorities. I think we all know why. Is it that ‘TSFM needs a strong John Clark’? Maybe so. Despite my suspicions, I don’t think we should hound John from the blog or demote him to Pie and Bovril. I’m prepared to accept that no posting advantage was gained from the error and, furthermore, John’s invaluable community service in Edinburgh a few weeks ago should be taken as penance and we should say no more about it. I certainly don’t want an oldJo/newJo debate.
And, Ryan, are you really surprised at a change in someone’s behaviour after they’ve dropped an ‘e’?
Danish Pastry says:
May 3, 2014 at 8:50 am
“(You do realise that turning up pretending to be something you aren’t is very TRFC? Par for the course, apparently 😀 )”
__________________________________________
And there is the type of riposte I was referring to in my previous post. Delivered with a flourish that would do D’Artagnan proud. Par excellence, DP 😀
Good Morning.
Given the relegation battle going on in the SPFL, the promotion battle taking place in the championship, and various other matters surrounding the games elsewhere in Scotland isn’t this one of the most interesting Saturdays in Scottish Fitba for years?
Obviously, I will be hoping that Celtic get the better of Aberdeen today.
However, I will also be cheering on the Staggies and the Bairns today in the hope that results go their way.
LASTLY below is a link to a wee non football related story from my blog.
The theme running through it belongs to another sport altogether — but it is a nice story which contains a wee bio of a true sporting hero.
If it is for you, pulls a heart string or two, then great — if it is not your bag then no harm done.
Enjoy your Saturday and your Bank Holiday weekend folks.
A Lover’s tale —-The Stranger, The Queen and the Glasgow Garden Festival
http://wp.me/p1G95H-1gg
Oops – TSFM, not TRFC. FHF (fat head failure).
Burghbhoy – what a waste of effort. Can you not grasp how that could have been better devoted to sorting out your club?
Imagine hundreds if not thousands of fans with your intellect and drive getting behind the wheel – like Hearts for instance – and chasing out the spivs and crooks who seem to appear as if by magic around Ibrox?
No reason at all that you could have owned or largely owned your own club. What a great day that could be for you all.
Instead you get your jollies by trying to undermine one of the few sources of independent news and analysis available to fans.
You really are very sad.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath (and 41 other senior teams and countless non-league clubs too). And a place to have free and frank discussions…
Allyjambo I don’t think our friend with a fetish for TUPE has ever claimed to be a Rangers supporter as in his previous incarnations East Fife was alwys his team of choice and as on the late Paul McConvilles much missed site was always unkind about TSFM. I believe him to be an old sparring partner of Eco in the good old days. As to the barb about ” the pet Rangers fan ” if referring to Ryan Gosling I have enjoyed Ryan’s input and it is the strict moderation policy of this site that makes it possible. Not sure if that counts as a “pat on the head”. 😆
vburghbhoy says:
May 3, 2014 at 8:07 am
So many words on a question that has such a clear answer.
1. This is a site frequented by folk who have a strong, often visceral dislike of Rangers FC.
2. This is a site that has a deserved reputation for being frequented by folk who have a strong, often visceral dislike of Rangers FC.
3. Due to 1 & 2, supporters of Rangers FC do not wish to engage here.
This is traditionally where the example of the pet Rangers fan on the site is wheeled out, patted on the head, and everyone says “ah, but we like him!”
Go on. Do it. You know you want to 🙂
=====================================
Well you got me down to a tee.
As for the pet Sevco fan,personally I don’t believe half of the stuff posted .
Am I the only one who thinks that there is more than one Ryan Gosling.
I have been busy lately,Lambing and a sick cow, so I have not had a chance to read all the latest posts.
At least Sevco fans get more then one chance to post on here Burghboy ,this site is at least tolerant of differing opinions which is a damned sight better than any Sevco forum I have had the dubious pleasure of reading.
Anyway lambing is finished and the cow got better,she’s away back to her mother.
Burghbhoy, if you’re still there, it might be worth taking a minute to consider that you posted two comments in quick succession attacking both the TSFM community and moderators. Notice, if you will, that these comments were not moderated and were allowed to be viewed by the community as a whole. This is one of the few sites built on community engagement where moderation is used as a last resort. You have benefitted from this policy and the fact that TSFM asked people not to engage with you but continued to allow your posts to be shown just shows that you were given more chances to contribute something worthwhile, even after dragging us through the mire. So don’t be bitter, you’ve not been hard done by.
Tic 6709 – there’s only one Ryan Gosling.
RyanGosling says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:49 am
Very well put Sir.
highfibre says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:31 am
Haywire, as far as I am aware (and having been subject to TUPE regulations in the past) if the contracts transferred over to Newco under TUPE regulations, then there would be no “evidence”. The contracts would simply be the same as they were before, only with a different company name on them. If they were different, then TUPE regulations would have been broken. There is no requirement to prove compliance with the regulations or even to acknowledge that they have applied.
Please put this squirrel to bed.
At last – a sensible and informative answer (apart from the bit about the rodent that wanders about in trees). Thank you Highfibre!
However, just watch what you’re saying about that noble animal, the squirrel. My team have a squirrel mascot – his name is Cyril – so there!
redlichtie says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:27 am
Burghbhoy – what a waste of effort. Can you not grasp how that could have been better devoted to sorting out your club?
Imagine hundreds if not thousands of fans with your intellect and drive getting behind the wheel – like Hearts for instance – and chasing out the spivs and crooks who seem to appear as if by magic around Ibrox?
No reason at all that you could have owned or largely owned your own club. What a great day that could be for you all.
=======================================
It’s the same kind of madness to be found in the organised campaign making allegations of illegal State Aid and public corruption levelled against Celtic.
Their club is on the verge of collapse and yet they are straining every sinew in their misguided, obsessive folly they think will damage Celtic. I have never ever believed that ordinary Bears who love their club have the slightest interest to the claims. It only requires a read of the twitter accounts involved to immediately identify what the real motivation is.
As to burghbhoy I have listened to his guff – and that in all his previous incarnations on different sites – and what a tired old story it is from a very sad person. But don’t worry too much about him he’ll bounce back again but the argument will be the same 😆
redlichtie says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:27 am
2 0 Rate This
… No reason at all that you could have owned or largely owned your own club. What a great day that could be for you all.
———-
So very true @Red. Had the SFA, SPL, & SFL done the right thing, Green and his cronies would mostly likely have faded away. No license and place in the league structure for Sevco.
It was the glaringly sensible solution, and still is. Think of the money fans, to their huge credit, have pumped into the current sheme. That could have been banked and a sustainable plan worked out via the fans own re-named Sevco. Arriving one year later with essentially enough money for the next three years and with a manager of the Gary Locke variety had seen them rich today and heading for the Division they have just won.
Says a lot that the much-mocked and maligned John Brown walked away empty handed on a matter of principle. He could have hung around, become a paid yes man and promoted ST sales. He didn’t. Seems strange to think that, apart from Bill Miller, JB was the one speaking the truth.
Ryan,
You said:
“You have benefitted from this policy and the fact that TSFM asked people not to engage with you but continued to allow your posts to be shown just shows that you were given more chances to contribute something worthwhile, even after dragging us through the mire. ”
A wee reminder….
I have the impudence to provide new, fact-based insight on a staple discussion of this forum and later that evening I have the site moderator instructing users to “not engage” with me tomorrow. Yet somehow I should be grateful? That I wasn’t censored quicker than I inevitably will be?
I’ve long reconciled myself that the OC/NC debate is no longer about the facts but about accepting something to be true on the basis that a regulatory body says it is.
To quote the late Christopher Hitchens…”Demands that you believe the impossible do not lead to peaceful outcomes. Nor do they lead to peaceful or tolerant regimes.”
A Hitchslap that could’ve been written for the SFA.
can you no go chap their door and see if Oldgold and Enkafids mum is letting them oot to play ??
TSFM: “when he comes back tomorrow don’t engage please. Let it pass.” Noted.
Barcabhoy your post contained nothing to argue with. I’d just like to point out that nothing you said is anything I have an issue with, such posts are vital to this forum. You discussed cold hard facts without revelling in the discomfort said facts bring to others, which is to your credit.
broganrogantrevinoandhogan says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:15 am
Thanks for pointing us(me) in the direction of that wee story. There’s more to TSFM than football 😀
hector says:
May 3, 2014 at 9:31 am
Allyjambo I don’t think our friend with a fetish for TUPE has ever claimed to be a Rangers supporter as in his previous incarnations East Fife was alwys his team of choice and as on the late Paul McConvilles much missed site was always unkind about TSFM. I believe him to be an old sparring partner of Eco in the good old days. As to the barb about ” the pet Rangers fan ” if referring to Ryan Gosling I have enjoyed Ryan’s input and it is the strict moderation policy of this site that makes it possible. Not sure if that counts as a “pat on the head”. 😆
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Yup, TSFM let us know that he was that man of many nicknames, his IP address gives him away to computer savvy types like our moderator 😀 This has been his most complex infiltration to date, and probably shows there’s more than one of him at work 🙄 but the first time, as far as I am aware, he’s come in with a name that suggests he is a ‘bhoy’. The squib that was his parting shot is no doubt as damp as his underwear became when he got over-excited at the thought of ‘fooling’ us with his disguise. I wonder if he put on a Celtic top while in his guise; more a ‘Black Fingernail’ (Carry On Don’t Lose Your Head) than ‘Scarlet Pimpernel’.
Ryan
Can I ask a genuine question? What do you consider to be most important to you as a RFC fan and supporter….going to see your ‘new’ team at Ibrox or going to see your ‘old’ team at a new location?
I ask because I feel the majority of any clubs identity is delivered form the hardware…and I think that is where the arguments are based in many situations….The “average Burghboy” holds dear the weekly pilgrimage to Ibrox and despite the liquidation of the ‘club’ will unendingly do so (D King aside!)
I would say Celtic fans would do the same..
My point being I suppose that what will happen once Laxeys or another syphon off the stadium and “build a tescos” will the show just conitune while the stadium is available?
I’ve missed most of the debate on TUPE, but here’s my tuppence worth anyway. CG bought assets not a going concern. Then CHOSE to employ staff and players on the same term and conditions as employed by the company in liquidation (no need for TUPE).
Whether it was Hobsons’ Choice is another point- condition on the sale of the assets?
sorry if this has already been covered or is completely of tangent but doing an awful lot of nightshifts. 😳
Indy14 that’s an interesting question, to which I don’t really have an answer. What would other posters think to the same question- how important is your stadium to your teams identity?
While not drawing the same distinctions as you between the old and new teams, taking that out of the equation I’d say that watching any Rangers at a place other than Ibrox as the home ground would feel very strange. I’d still do it, but I’m sure there are plenty who would consider a move from Ibrox as game over.
Hi Ryan, thanks for taking the question for what it was and apologies if you feel I was point scoring I was just using the general language as distinction…my bad on that.
But I meant that as a “new club” the remaining characters of the original club the stadium and the pilgrimage a part.
The problem I see for TRFC is that you have now the stadium as your Mecca, without it you have a real problem, with it you can ‘continue’ Airdrie for example have little to cllng to in my opinion.
I just feel CP anywhere else could be acceptable as long as no liquidation occurs, but it’s about generations I suppose my kids wouldn’t give a monkeys when older if they went to a new stadium elsewhere….
Just a wee thought that’s found it’s way into my oft addled brain; could the reason for no TV coverage of the final day of the Championship be because all matches have to kick-off at the same time on the last day, to avoid one team knowing exactly what result they need to win the league/avoid relegation 😳 and, I think correctly, it is considered that showing a match kicking off at 3.00 could effect crowds at all other matches today? In saying that, it would have made a great day’s viewing, a helicopter Saturday (or Sunday), if the powers that be had put in a genuine effort to highlight a great day for the Championship. You know, like they will almost certainly do next year – if the anticipated triumphal march continues!
Ryan Gosling & Indy14
Perhaps the ‘stadium’ question should be asked Hearts supporters.
Would they have preferred to take Cala Homes £20m to clear the debt move from Tynie and rent Murrayfield, rebuild with help from the Cooncil in the west of Edinburgh (they could have maybe have got a tram stop!!) and avoid having had Vlad involved?Ok a few cup wins and euro football but the championship looms next season.
With hindsight probably at 50/50 split IMHO.
ecobhoy says:
May 3, 2014 at 10:10 am
It’s the same kind of madness to be found in the organised campaign making allegations of illegal State Aid and public corruption levelled against Celtic.
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Let’s not forget just how quickly the media, in particular the BBC, dived into this nonsense. So called respectable hacks like Graham Spiers tweeted for a couple of days about Rangers fans maybe finding an ‘equaliser’ to their tax affairs. I don’t think it is only a few mad twitter users who are desperate for Celtic to be involved in something illicit. Presumably, following their initial wave of excitement, the relative silence would indicate Celtic have quietly told them to be extremely careful about what they report and how they report it.
RyanGosling says:
May 3, 2014 at 11:42 am
1 1 Rate This
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Ibrox has no doubt taken on extra significance because of the liquidation of the old club. But if the UoF leave the current regime high and dry by setting up somewhere else, it may finally allow the fans to determine what a Rangers future will be like. There is still a huge opportunity for the fans to save a club in blue calling itself Rangers.
Arsenal, Man City, and other teams have successfully switched grounds. But I can see it would be a double trauma for fans losing club then stadium. Still, pragmatic approach vital, imo. The current regime may, as some have indicated, have other plans for the stadium.
WOTTPI – its relevant to everyone but I feel where (and excuse me Ryan no upset intended with the next bit) a liquidated club and history lost, where their identity is being scrutinised, surely the importance of the stadium that secures that identity is crucial in the continuation of the belief that the club remains? I am being genuine here, I really want to understand of the value of (lets use Ibrox) stadia is critical, I feel especially in this example
and on another matter, I hope the div 1 final round of games is a brilliant as it is set up to be, Open all mics could be epic today
indy14 says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:17 pm
No doubt that a stadium tugs at the heart strings of supporters and clearly the situation at Rangers intensifies those feelings due to everything a move from the Big Hoose would represent in these troubled times. So I agree if it comes to it then it will be a bigger issue for fans than for a club making a conscious and controlled decision to move to a new location.
Of course it may be a further question could be relevant at some point in the future.
‘Would you prefer to own and control your own stadium elsewhere or rent Ibrox?’
Respect HP, the reputation of this site and RTC before it is built on posters like yourself.
Even us lurkers can smell a rat a mile off now due to your teachings.
Apologies TSFM for my need to be moderated yesterday, it had just passed that point for me. Won’t do it again, anyway I think some folk enjoy serving dinners and I may have spoiled their fun.
WOTTPI
that fairly, sums up my question, the importance of a rental agreement in the rangers saga is crucial to the belief of “continuation”
The need to rent Ibrox if it comes to it I feel is the spivs ace card.
I suppose it’s a wait and see, but Ryan and other fans of the Ibrox club must tread carefully around any future funding and admin that sees the possibility of Ibrox removed from their ownership permanently.
burghbhoy says:
May 3, 2014 at 1:16 am (Edit)
TSFM?
A reasoned, well-evidenced argument on a topic that has been, and has continued to be, a pre-occupation of this site since its inception and its getting the “don’t engage please” treatment. “Let it pass”. The impudent attempt at offering an alternative narrative i presume you’re referring to there? Oh dear.
And you wonder why this site has the reputation that it has?
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????? 🙂
Danish Pastry says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:14 pm
RyanGosling says:
May 3, 2014 at 11:42 am
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Ibrox has no doubt taken on extra significance because of the liquidation of the old club. But if the UoF leave the current regime high and dry by setting up somewhere else, it may finally allow the fans to determine what a Rangers future will be like. There is still a huge opportunity for the fans to save a club in blue calling itself Rangers.
Arsenal, Man City, and other teams have successfully switched grounds. But I can see it would be a double trauma for fans losing club then stadium. Still, pragmatic approach vital, imo. The current regime may, as some have indicated, have other plans for the stadium.
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I have always thought that if the spivs depart and it comes down to fans/Rangers Men having to rent Ibrox from RIFC Plc then it would be essential that the lease be kept to a maximum of say 5 years so that if the club can make it financially then after that period the fans might be better placed emotionally to accept a move from Ibrox.
I just don’t think they would be prepared to sever ties with Ibrox at the moment/near future in view of all the other angst taking place and tbh I don’t believe declaring they brought it on themselves or not makes a blind bit of difference to that.
Bears will need to feel they are in a better place wrt their club before they can move to a better place in terms of being affordable to and which is owned by the fans.
Of course the property compoany RIFC Plc will be looking for a minimum 20 year full repairing/insuring lease which would have ther effect of crippling Rangers financially despite the size of their support.
But difficult times require very painful and hard decisions to be made which must address the longer term rather than just being quick fixes which always cost more in the long run.
upthehoops says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:12 pm
ecobhoy says:
May 3, 2014 at 10:10 am
It’s the same kind of madness to be found in the organised campaign making allegations of illegal State Aid and public corruption levelled against Celtic.
=================================================
Let’s not forget just how quickly the media, in particular the BBC, dived into this nonsense. So called respectable hacks like Graham Spiers tweeted for a couple of days about Rangers fans maybe finding an ‘equaliser’ to their tax affairs. I don’t think it is only a few mad twitter users who are desperate for Celtic to be involved in something illicit. Presumably, following their initial wave of excitement, the relative silence would indicate Celtic have quietly told them to be extremely careful about what they report and how they report it.
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Ah but I have no doubt that professional organisation was working away in the background while the ultimately scarificial lambs made public their defamatory statements.
The SMSM were obviously primed and started the ball rolling very briefly before, as you allude to, they appear to have been presented with a Mystic Meg vision that their future appeared to feature a lot of people wearing wigs and gowns and the payment of large sums of money to make the apparitions go away 🙄
Just dropped off the wife and brother-in-law at Dens for the game this afternoon, so hopefully for their sakes (and mine I suppose!) Dundee secure the title.
Should be an interesting and exciting afternoon no matter what happens!
wottpi says:
May 3, 2014 at 12:00 pm
As the Vlad debacle was unforeseen, I doubt any Hearts supporter could honestly say they’d have preferred to sell Tynecastle, with hindsight, of course, that might well be different.
Viewing it, however, from where we are now, that’s always going to be a difficult one to answer, unless the refusal to move away from our traditional home might/would lead to the end of the club. I know that, for myself, past plans to move to a new, bigger, more modern stadium, have left me with a mixture of excitement and regret, and on occasion, I’ve felt that my latest visit to Tynecastle (sadly few and far between now) might be my last as the prospect of moving has, from time to time, raised it’s head.
Heart of Midlothian Football Club is Heart of Midlothian Football Club wherever it plays, it is not, however, Heart of Midlothian Football Club if it doesn’t achieve a CVA. If a CVA was only achievable without Tynecastle, then I would gladly settle for that, and I’m sure the vast majority of Hearts supporters would share that view if the prospect had become a reality. If time shows that the club has to move to survive, even after we come out of administration, then so be it. As long as the club lives on.
Ibrox appears to be seen by the majority of Rangers supporters as a monument to what they see themselves as and hold dear, and so they fear/will not countenance losing it. Tynecastle is our home, but should we ever lose it, we have two monuments to hold dear, one is in Contalmaison, France, the other is at Haymarket, Edinburgh. It is what a club does and represents, wherever it’s spiritual home might be, that matters in the end.
I doubt I’ve given you an answer, wottpi, but Arsenal are still Arsenal, Man City are still Man City, and I’m sure they were as attached to their old grounds as we are to our grounds in Scotland. I live and work amongst many a City season ticket holder, and none of them have ever mentioned regret at leaving their spiritual home, though they all hold it dear.
I have often wondered if Rangers could have achieved a CVA if only they’d been prepared to give up Ibrox etc, leaving it and MP to provide the creditors with a larger, fairer, pot. With all respect to you, Ryan, how do you view this scenario? Would you have been happier losing Ibrox, and kicking the OC/NC debate into touch, or do you feel the stadium is too big a part of what Rangers were/stood for for them to be Rangers without it?
If I could have sold Ibrox and Murray Park to achieve a CVA, or to have avoided going into administration in the first place, I’d have done it without blinking.
Allyjambo says:
May 3, 2014 at 2:02 pm
I doubt I’ve given you an answer, wottpi,
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Not at all you have summed things up perfectly.
There is no doubt that where a ground is situated adds to the game day experience. How you get there, what pubs and chippys are visited, the way the crowd channels into the ground etc etc. Some stadiums of course are located within the heart of a community and moving elsewhere just dosen’t seem right.
However as you say a club should be more than the stadium it plays in.
Both Ibrox and Tynie suffer from having the old Archibald Leitch frontages that ties them to the past.
The reality is of course that the rest of those grounds and all sections of other grounds, e.g Easter Road are now wholly unrecognizable from what existed in the 60’s and 70’s. Heck the grass will have been relaid multiple times over the years along with new goal posts, corner flags, white paint, advertising etc etc and even the slope at Easter Road was removed.
Other than location we really are in ‘Trigger’s Broom’ territory.
All logic would say that the stadium, its location and (in some cases) who owns it shouldn’t really matter but it clearly does.
Unfortunately, even the sale of property would not have persuaded HMRC to vote in favour of the CVA in Oldco. My team sold a stadium for financial reasons. We were lucky with timing and location but if we hadn’t achieved a sale I suspect administration was likely. We were lucky.
We had tearful last game and a joyful first game. We then carried on and have got on with it. No regrets on that score. Definitely the right decision.
Today we have a fabulous day in Scottish football to enjoy. Aided in no small part by the decision to have play offs – so credit to the decision makers. Big crowds all over – brilliant – as Tam C said earlier – armageddon must be next week.
I can’t help but think that if there happened to be a C v R game (even a meaningless one) all of the other excitement we can focus on today would be shoved into the “any other business” parts of the media coverage.
Loving it – good luck all – play well.
First time poster after being an avid guest going back to RTC days . A quite excellent forum for debate on all that’s good , and more so unfortunately , bad in the Scottish game today .
Rest assured I will be chipping in with my tuppence worth when the occasion demands . I hope I can contribute and maintain the seriously high level of expertise found on here in all manner of topics .
I think the best question of that type was asked last year or so by Angus (possibly) and it revolved around the asset purchase by Charles Green. As I recall the question was along the lines of, ‘if Charles Green bought all the assets/players etc and set up playing at Ibrox as Rangers and Walter Smith started a new Rangers team playing elsewhere but stuffed and staffed by Real Rangers men, who would the fans follow?’