Turnbull Hutton
is the chairman of Raith Rovers. He has been lauded by TSFM readers as a man of courage and integrity who shares our views about the game – and who has never shirked away from calling out those who don’t.
But what motivated him to take on the largely thankless challenge of devoting himself to his local team?
What are his plans for Raith Rovers? What are his views on the SFA, League reconstruction, Armageddon, and a whole load of other things.
Not to mention the savouring of a still-fresh recent cup win.
It would I think, take an earthquake of Jovian dimensions to disconnect Hutton’s connection to terra-firma. Born and brought up in Burntisland, he is wedded to plain speaking and of course to Raith Rovers.
My sense is of a man who eschews the Scottish Football Blazer culture, who is instinctively suspicious of politicians and other bandwagon jumpers, and who has a sense of optimism about the future of our game.
Like many other directors at clubs across the country, he and his colleagues are often required to dig deep into their own pockets to keep their clubs alive, their sole reward being the satisfaction of doing so (and the occasional cup win!).
Before retirement he was joint managing director of Diageo Operations Scotland, and in that role he helped facilitate the Bells sponsorship of Scottish football.
Just short of buying a Rovers Season ticket, I couldn’t have been more charmed, but had I expected a dewy eyed idealist with zealot’s agenda over the sins of the authorities, I would have been wrong.
Hutton is very much pragmatist. He knows exactly what has gone wrong, but feels that the game most urgently needs some of Auldheid’s “Truth & Reconciliation” before it can sort itself out.
Hutton is a somewhat reluctant hero. He is flattered when I tell him of the regard he is held in here, and complimentary about the level of debate on TSFM, where is a regular reader .
When I spoke to Turnbull at his Edinburgh home, I was treated to a warm welcome by him and his wife Margot, as well as coffee, biscuits, chat, and a lesson in the dynamics of running a championship club; from leading a debt-ridden Rovers into profit last year, to the dilemmas inherent in boardroom redecoration 🙂
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 10:38 am
0 0 Rate This
Rangers had also been sold to another legal entity before admin and that entity hadn’t made any EBT payments.
==========================
Oh come on Ecobhoy, not you as well!!
Rangers had not been sold to another legal entity…..CW BOUGHT rangers, he bought the shares in Rangers, and it was RANGERS who were making the payments to the EBT’s – that the owner had changed in the 10 months prior to admin is almost irrelevant
Also, I’d challenge that there was no EBT payments under CW’s ownership – he issued new bumper contracts to several players in the summer and the belief on RTC at the time was that this was to “replace” the existing EBT contracts the players had and “make them honest”
Eco – but I suppose my main point is that it matters not a jot whether the trust I set up is a sham or not. Even if it is not a sham, payments into it can be challenged. Let’s say I set it up 18 months before I go bust and that at the time I have no knowledge of impending insolvency. The transfers into the trust are subject to the same insolvency challenge rules as any other transfers.
This issue has nothing to do with tax law or validity of trusts (although clearly sham/invalid trusts or breaches of tax law would give additional grounds of challenge).
You say – “There’s obviously a clear motive and gain in setting-up a trust to syphon money away from a parent’s impending financial collapse and it could be legally open to challenge. But again when it’s payments to non-related employees in a tax reduction scheme – widely used by a number of UK companies – which wasn’t illegal at the time I just don’t feel your example assists.”
Motive is irrelevant. What matters is the effect – the outcome. And what happened is that the assets of the insolvent company were diminished in a period prior to its insolvency. The fact that it was done as part of a tax-eficiency drive that was considered legal at the time is irrelevant too. Its just not a tax issue – it is an insolvency issue. Lots of lawful transactions are successfully challenged in insolvency situations.
Anyway another poster recently pointed out that BDO are due to be issuing another report in the very near future – it is possible that that report may shed some light on their proposed tactics/approach.
Or it might not.
I see that the Celtic v Sevco squirrel has moved from the Middle East to Australia.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/football/adelaide-oval-could-host-a-match-between-rangers-and-celtic-the-oldest-rivalry-in-soccer/story-fnii0fc4-1226911057434
This jumped out, probably because it is the only accurate statement in the whole piece:
“In 2012 Rangers was liquidated. A new club was formed and Rangers had to apply to the Scottish league system where the club started again in the lower tiers of Scottish football.”
Tic 6709 says:
May 9, 2014 at 10:54 am
6 0 Rate This
Surely you mean “suggestions IN an envelope (disguised as an EBT) 😈
Danish Pastry / Ernie – I’ve long thought, since way before any of Rangers financial problems, that a ground share made good sense. I know there are many issues with getting there, but imagine the benefits to both teams if it had been done years ago. To an even greater extent, the dundee teams have grounds on the same road if I’m not mistaken! I just find it bizarre.
Campbellsmoney says:
May 9, 2014 at 10:41 am
Very pleased to see that Jackie McNamara appears not to have had his head turned by Blackpool’s approach.
========================
Unlike last season when, half way through the season in charge of a Thistle team that looked to be in with a very good shout for promotion, he had his head turned by The Arabs…
“The Company announces that it was notified today that Alexander Easdale purchased 57,043 ordinary shares of 1 penny each in the Company (“Ordinary Shares”) at a price of 0.23p per share on 1 May 2014.”
That is 0.23p per share, not £0.23 per share?
http://www.lse.co.uk/share-regulatory-news.asp?shareprice=RFC&ArticleCode=41l07yw4&ArticleHeadline=Holdings_in_Company
Campbellsmoney says:
May 9, 2014 at 10:41 am
15 0 Rate This
Very pleased to see that Jackie McNamara appears not to have had his head turned by Blackpool’s approach. We have seen a number of promising Scottish managers head south after a modicum of success up here (Derek McInnes springs to mind) only to suffer a few reversals and be binned. While no doubt it is tempting to get into the English leagues and the opportunities and cash that they appear to offer, Jackie McNamara is still very young (and I would say relatively untested). Better for all that he stays here for a while yet and learns his trade. If he is good enough, the chances will come again.
I expect in any case that this story was planted by a St Johnstone-biased press to unsettle him in advance of the Cup Final.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Certainly don’t want turn this site in a club blog but surely Macnamara has his eye on the Celtic job and vice versa re Celtic monitoring his progress. He is only two years younger than Lennon and certainly no more untested than Lennon was when he was when given that job. For those who place importance on such matters he has the right Celtic credentials backed up by the good work done at Partick and Dundee Utd to land that job if Lennon moves on. Whether or not he ends up at Celtic Park, given his performance and style of play shown by his teams I wholly agree the fact that he is seemingly happy to stay put at United should be welcomed by the Scottish game.
Retweeted by Celtic ambassador
Ronnie MacKay @RonnieMacKay 2m
From Rangers website: You can tweet your questions directly to me on @RFC_Official using the hashtag #ReadyToListen between 1pm and 2pm.
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Retweeted by Celtic ambassador
Ronnie MacKay @RonnieMacKay 2m
Graham Wallace doing a Q and A on Twitter…..this could be interesting!
You know you want to….
redetin says:
May 9, 2014 at 12:01 pm
“The Company announces that it was notified today that Alexander Easdale purchased 57,043 ordinary shares of 1 penny each in the Company (“Ordinary Shares”) at a price of 0.23p per share on 1 May 2014.”
That is 0.23p per share, not £0.23 per share?
——————————————————
It’s 23p per share.
As I mentioned yesterday wrt to the chair’s recent share acquisitions it might be that a rights issue to existing shareholders is nearer than we think and this is what is sparking the purchases. It could be that or other things of course.
In terms of overall control it might not make a blind bit of difference as that would depend on who was selling them and others have recently expounded on that.
So my gut instinct is that soemthing could well be happening but the question, as always, is what is it ❓ 😆
wottpi says:
May 9, 2014 at 12:09 pm
‘ . . . if Lennon moves on . . . ‘
———————————————–
I have always thought that if Lennon lifts the treble then he might well head-off and he would be entitled to and I would certainly wish him well despite being an early detractor when he was appointed.
McNamara is shaping-up well but we only have to look at Moyes to see that sometimes going to a really big club can be overwhelming. But it’s not really the place to get into a prolonged discussion on the issue other than to recognise Jackie’s vote of confidence in Dundee Utd and Scottish Football which really is welcome.
Meanwhile over at Rangers the whole thing is the tightrope I have been talking about for ages now.
An increase in season ticket prices and the prospect of still getting pay as you go cash from any folks withholding may still be enough income to keep the show on the road for the short term If the team is doing well then will the rebels cave in while keeping up paying at the gate and then folks will mostly likely take up the half season ticket offer in December.
With some austerity the income to expenditure gap can be closed and a wee cash injection will be enough to get them to a point where a big hike in season ticket prices can be put forward IF they get inot the premiership in 2015/16.
All still doable but risky as it all depends on so many unknowns.
#ReadyToListen
With twitter on the point of meltdown it is worth noting that amongst the insults and dross directed to GW some bears are asking pertinent questions.
I wonder if the guy who asked “who’s behind BPH and Margarita, and how many times have you met them” will get a reply?
wottpi says:
May 9, 2014 at 12:35 pm
Meanwhile over at Rangers the whole thing is the tightrope I have been talking about for ages now.
An increase in season ticket prices and the prospect of still getting pay as you go cash from any folks withholding may still be enough income to keep the show on the road for the short term If the team is doing well then will the rebels cave in while keeping up paying at the gate and then folks will mostly likely take up the half season ticket offer in December.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I personally don’t think the drop in season ticket purchases is just down to the King factor/no card facilities/board distrust etc.
I had 3 season tickets for Celtic park for almost 20 years and for at least 3 years previous to giving them up I tortured myself each year before caving in and buying.
I was fed up with the quality and style of some of the football, the level of competition, crazy kick off times to suit television and was only really buying to be guaranteed my Champions league tickets.
I was always looking for a reason or excuse not to buy and that only came when I decided to move abroad.
Now, I would suggest there are several thousand Rangers fans who have been looking for a reason or excuse not to buy but have been reluctant because they apparently don’t do walking away and will use the current turmoil to justify not parting with their hard earned cash.
When you consider that a lot of fans nowadays attend football as family groups (Dad ,Mum and 1/2/3 kids) it only takes a two or three thousand people to decide not to renew and this could easily equate to a drop of over 10 thousand season tickets.
I honestly think a lot of fans have been given the get out they will have been looking for and when gone they will never be back.
Understatement of the year:
Probably as good a question as any this one, since it looks like the usual waffle from Graham:
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
May 9, 2014 at 11:10 am
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 10:38 am
Rangers had also been sold to another legal entity before admin and that entity hadn’t made any EBT payments.
==========================
Oh come on Ecobhoy, not you as well!!
Rangers had not been sold to another legal entity…..CW BOUGHT rangers, he bought the shares in Rangers, and it was RANGERS who were making the payments to the EBT’s – that the owner had changed in the 10 months prior to admin is almost irrelevant
Also, I’d challenge that there was no EBT payments under CW’s ownership – he issued new bumper contracts to several players in the summer and the belief on RTC at the time was that this was to “replace” the existing EBT contracts the players had and “make them honest”
=============================================
You have made an excellent argument for the ever-continuing club that never dies – possibly one of the best I have ever heard 😆
The position actually is that Rangers the club didn’t issue any EBTs and didn’t transfer any money into the Jersey Trust Funds managing them. That was done by the DM owned and controlled PLC.
CW not only bought the majority shareholding in this company but cleared the remaining bank debt of what was it £17-18 million and therefore owned and controlled the PLC. However if my memory serves me correctly the PLC had a different holding company and that’s why I said a different legal entity.
It’s the same as TRFCL and RIFC Plc – both are different legal entitities but clearly RIFC call the shots and TRFCL is a wholly owned subsidiary of the PLC.
I obviously can’t accept your assertion that is is ‘almost irrelevant’ that the ownership had changed. It is legally either relevant or irrelevant and our views would appear to differ on that.
You say: ‘The belief on RTC at the time was that this was to “replace” the existing EBT contracts the players had and “make them honest”. And what exactly is wrong with giving the players wage increases to regularise the EBT situation. That seems to negate your argument that EBT payments were made by CW but if they were he may well have been in ignorance or it was a very limited period on his acquisition of Rangers.
No doubt this point could be cleared-up by someone but there is no doubt that EBTs – just like DOS before them – had become a busted-flush in terms of a tax advantage even before CW bought-out Murray.
In any case didn’t Celtic take the same responsible kind of step with Junino and his EBT?
I really have little interest in the old v new club debate except in theoretical terms. My position has always been that if Celtic had actually ended-up in the same position as Rangers then I would still hold to a belief that the values, history and achievements of the club continued in my heart and that would never die and neither would the memory of the failures. To me any successor would have an unbroken connection through the collective memories of a continuing support.
Where I might differ from a lot of Rangers supporters is that I would have no difficulty in recognising that the operating/holding company/ies had been liquidated and no longer existed.
I have previously argued this position at length on here against bitter opposition – mainly from fellow Celtic fans – and have no interest in doing so again as I know what my personal position is and feel no need to defend it or evangelise others to accept that point of view.
I also have no hatred towards football supporting Rangers fans and believe that Rangers will continue in some form and has every right to climb the Scottish football ladder through legitimate commercial operations and football ability and with no under the table ‘favours’ from Hampden.
I would be quite happy for Celtic never ever to play them again – purely because of the non-footballing agenda this creates – but am realistic enough to realise that they will meet and play again in cups and eventually in the same league.
Jamie Borthwick @jamiekborthwick · 2m
STV understands the sale and purchase is complete and Ann Budge is now the owner of Hearts. More to follow.
BBCBMcLauchlin @BBCBMcLauchlin 9s
Takeover of Hearts by Ann Budge has now been completed. New owner to talk to staff on Monday#bbcsportscot
Almost there 🙂
easyJambo says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:40 pm
3 0 Rate This
Jamie Borthwick @jamiekborthwick · 2m
STV understands the sale and purchase is complete and Ann Budge is now the owner of Hearts. More to follow.
BBCBMcLauchlin @BBCBMcLauchlin 9s
Takeover of Hearts by Ann Budge has now been completed. New owner to talk to staff on Monday#bbcsportscot
Almost there
———
Brilliant.
easyJambo says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:40 pm
EJ, respect and many congratulations to you and all connected with Hearts. A remarkable rescue of a club in dire straights made possible by fans and others facing up to the reality of the situation, digging in and making it happen.
easyJambo says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:40 pm
========
Great news- well done to all concerned.
It’s a pretty basic mistake to make though, isn’t it. I wonder if it was the new PR guy who released it, or Daniel Stewart?
As I recall, when there was talk of a new stadium at Caird Park, most (though not all) of the fans were relatively enthusiastic. As you say though, paying for it is the issue and at that time much of the cost was to be provided, I believe.
To all the Jambos a BIG Well Done!
A lot of you have worked helluva hard to bring this about and my heart has gone out to the young players who have gone through a baptism of fire this season and certainly earned my respect!
Campbellsmoney says:
May 9, 2014 at 10:41 am
Very pleased to see that Jackie McNamara appears not to have had his head turned by Blackpool’s approach. We have seen a number of promising Scottish managers head south after a modicum of success up here
===================================================
Agree. Although they might not have been that attractive anyway as they are very much a team on the way down: with the board unwilling to put any money into their team, despite being financially OK they have been declining rapidly as a force. No doubt MacNamara’s reputation for getting the best out of young players attracted them (as it did United when they toook him from Thistle) but I think as an ambitious young manager, who’s had a little bit of success now (cup final) he will be looking for a club “on the up” – not necessarliy a big club but one going in the right direction with enough resources to give him a chance to shine.
Brilliant news for all Jambos and a special round of applause to AJ and EJ 😀 Dignity!
Tic 6709 says:
May 9, 2014 at 10:54 am
King could be playing a very dangerous game here. What do you all think would happen if the main shareholders told all the King’s men that they will not part with the business but that they will rent them Ibrox.That threat of not being able to buy the The Rangers name would focus the mind.
They would then have to start at the very bottom (junior ?) what would the SFA do then ?
==================================
The ‘Rangers’ brand in terms of the name, phrases and logos is worth a lot of dosh and I have often thought that selling it to say SportsDirect would be a way of raising a wedge of cash for departing spivs.
And in the way these things are done I’m sure that whoever wanted to use the Rangers Name could buy a licence for that useage from whoever purchased the copyrighted ‘Brand Symbols’ for a no-doubt hefty annual fee.
Other issues come-up in a stadium rental like the income from the Albion car park would be retained by the stadium owners as would the catering income and of course there would be a fee for dealing with the ticket admin side.
And if I was the stadium owner I would be deducting any rental due off the receipts for every home game if any rental instalment was missed.
DK will have figured all these wrinkles out because if he owned the stadium he would have imposed the same scenario and plenty of things that I could never dream of to raise even more cash from the renter 😆
There’s no way round it but Ibrox will remain a financial black-hole whether owned or rented-out IMO. Only if the Bears are prepared to walk away from it could reasonable rental rates be negotiated but I can’t see the Bears doing that or at least Not Yet!
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:33 pm
5 1 Rate This
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
May 9, 2014 at 11:10 am
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 10:38 am
Rangers had also been sold to another legal entity before admin and that entity hadn’t made any EBT payments.
==========================
Oh come on Ecobhoy, not you as well!!
Rangers had not been sold to another legal entity…..CW BOUGHT rangers, he bought the shares in Rangers, and it was RANGERS who were making the payments to the EBT’s – that the owner had changed in the 10 months prior to admin is almost irrelevant
Also, I’d challenge that there was no EBT payments under CW’s ownership – he issued new bumper contracts to several players in the summer and the belief on RTC at the time was that this was to “replace” the existing EBT contracts the players had and “make them honest”
=============================================
You have made an excellent argument for the ever-continuing club that never dies – possibly one of the best I have ever heard 😆
=========================
it’s friday afternoon and i’m not going to get into a long winded argument on old club/new club/same club etc.
However, the fact of the matter is that RFC PLC was it’s own legal entity. The tax affairs of that entity was it’s own responsibility and the monies paid into EBT’s were the companies moneys.
the actions were of the companies – not DM’s or MIH’s and not CW’s or wavetowers.
The Club is the company, it funded the EBT’s and regardless of who owned the shares in the company, the company itself is ultimately responsible for the tax affairs.
CW gave players new contracts which were “bumper” in the sense that the top line figure was greater, but after tax, it was the same – because previous contracts had EBT sections which were no longer financially efficient and it also allowed RFC PLC to be legit in how it paid it’s staff.
Just because owners change, doesn’t make it eternal, the club/company died.
scottc says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:51 pm
It’s a pretty basic mistake to make though, isn’t it. I wonder if it was the new PR guy who released it, or Daniel Stewart?
===================================
The actual release is provided to AIM by RNS which is the internal news service for the market but I would have thought that the information would have been supplied to RNS by Newgate Threadneedle who does the AIM Financial PR for RFC.
Hey, who knows, maybe he only did pay a fathing a share 😆
After all when Green, Allie and Imran got theirs for 1p they were reckoned to be worh a quid each so .25p when they are trading at only around 25p is spot-on ❗
spanishcelt says:
May 9, 2014 at 12:55 pm
I think many on here including myself were guilty of underestimating the loyalty of the Rangers support.
A few good PR moments from this board and they will be well on their way to gaining trust.
As long as Wallace has the backing of the shareholders they will continue along with plan A.
Wallace and others are giving to them straight. The past was a mess and the club needs to restructure itself. King is just offering the same old Minty Moonbeams and I think many people see through that and combined with those who will turn up no matter what and those who still want to show defiance to the rest of Scottish Football the money will keep enough money rolling in.
If King is in anyway successful then its Plan B for the property company. Easdales Somers and others can give one last warning shot and say that unlike King they put their money where there mouth was but if fans follow him it will be a ‘Rangers Man’ who finally killed off their plans for setting the club on course for a sustainable future. The only legal option left for them is the duty to protect the interest of the existing shareholders and do whatever is necessary to give them a return on their investment.
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:33 pm
I made my position clear as to how I would regard Celtic if they were in Rangers’ position and I don’t care whether anyone agrees with that or even whether it is legally correct or not. It is what my heart believes and therein lies the sterility of the Rangers oldco/newco argument IMO which is being overtaken by time and/or events and tens of thousands of Bears still support Rangers and see the club as ‘continuing’.
My position is that it doesn’t actually matter whether they are right or wrong – it’s what they believe. And we still don’t know what the final result/solution will be but one will have to be found because I don’t think Rangers as a club will be totally destroyed and exterminated which seems to be the only solution favoured by some.
I assume from your silence on Junino that you agree with the action taken wrt regularising his EBT even though you attack CW who you state did the same on his purchase of the Rangers PLC from Murray.
As I have said before on here I don’t think anyone can ‘buy’ a football club because I believe it actually belongs solely to the supporters who carry it in their hearts and it can only die when all its supporters die IMO.
In a sense that concept is bedded in the membership ethos of the old unincorporated associations so shouldn’t be regarded as strange or OTT.
And I really think we should leave it there because it’s obvious we will never find agreement or even much common ground on this issue.
I’m not sure what the twitter happening was supposed to achieve, apart from ticking a ‘fan engagement box’ in the run up to the inevitable bonus.
Summary:
Building for the future; rolling progression; we are currently looking at that; ST sales gaining momentum (no numbers); in the coming months; my bonus is discretionary; season ticket holders will be founding members of fan membership scheme; being CEO is very important to me.
Bizarre non-speak waffle throughout from GW. A complete sham.
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
May 9, 2014 at 8:09 am.
………………………..
“Using my rusty calculator,and a potential asset value of £20m,coupled with the derelict areas around Ibrox”
I might be wrong but I believe the derelict areas around Ibrox where declared Toxic by GCC a few years back…which was reported back in the RTC days!
wottpi says:
May 9, 2014 at 2:44 pm
I think many on here including myself were guilty of underestimating the loyalty of the Rangers support. A few good PR moments from this board and they will be well on their way to gaining trust.
===========================================
The problem is no one knows who that loyalty will be given to and the only barometer we need to keep a weather-eye on is ST sales.
That will determine the future for the shareholders – if the fans buy then the shareholders will continue with their plans in which I don’t think football rates that highly except in its money-making potential.
If they don’t buy then the shareholders either make-up the shortfall to continue their journey towards their ultimate goal or they accelerate their exit. The option chosen will be determined on the basis of what provides the greatest return on investment.
As to ‘a few good PR moments’ I actually think over the last couple of years a lot of Bears have woken-up to PR spin and will be much more wary of anything they are promised. They are demanding action at a more visceral level and I doubt if the controlling shareholders have any intention of satisfying that hunger because it comes too expensive.
However just like ST sales is a barometer we will have another measure of Bear thinking if the Legends vote en-bloc for King and how this is handled by the new PR. If he fumbles it then that will be a bad, a very bad PR moment and tbf it really is a nightmare scenario.
But the nearer we get to ST deadline day – which I have no doubt will be extended due to the enormous demand 😆 – the clearer it will all become. Of course that takes us no nearer the end of the story but just to the next chapter.
Congrats to Hearts. Excuse my ignorance – does this mean that the club is out of administration now or is there more to the process?
Paulmac2 says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:12 pm
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
May 9, 2014 at 8:09 am.
………………………..
“Using my rusty calculator,and a potential asset value of £20m,coupled with the derelict areas around Ibrox”
I might be wrong but I believe the derelict areas around Ibrox where declared Toxic by GCC a few years back…which was reported back in the RTC days!
—————————————–
State Aid is a wonderful regenerative tool as can be seen in the East End and in particular at Celtic Park 😆
It also is making a huge difference in Belfast with the EC approved £110 million refurbishment of the three stadia covering football, rugby and gaelic games.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-406_en.htm
Danish Pastry says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:10 pm
[GW] Summary:
…my bonus is discretionary…
========================
Would be interesting to know the exact wording from GW on this specific point DP, if you can remember offhand ?
Can’t believe it is not guaranteed: perhaps the timing of the payment had an element of discretion / variance ?
GW knew the mess he was walking into at TRFC, and the potential risk to his own reputation.
IMO, he must have been in a fairly strong negotiating position – including insisting that his bonus was safely set aside for collection on completion of his remit, [or on completion of a relatively short-term milestone as agreed upfront – e.g. to get TRFC in one piece to the close season ?].
ECOBHOY says:
May 9, 2014 at 2:54 pm
…………………………….
‘As I have said before on here I don’t think anyone can ‘buy’ a football club because I believe it actually belongs solely to the supporters who carry it in their hearts and it can only die when all its supporters die IMO’
……………………………
It’s a lovely thought….and one that leads me to ask will those same fans please consider paying the £40+ million owed to creditors….before we all get too misty eyed and start to reminisce on how football used to be…
So lets not forget those people whose business and livelihoods were placed in jeopardy by this club…regardless of the Barbara Cartland style romantic idea of what a football club means to people.
Danish Pastry says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:10 pm
Bizarre non-speak waffle throughout from GW. A complete sham.
==========================
The man’s doing his best for his paymasters – don’t be so hard on him!
I assume he didn’t say how much the new fan membership scheme will cost. This could be the not so secret weapon to destroy the power of the existing fan groups and IMO only the ‘voice’ of this new ‘independent’ organisation will be listened to by the Board or even have access to it.
I would reckon whoever is chosen to head it up is a stick-on for a Blue Blazer, tie and brown brogues. I wonder how long it will last till internal strife surfaces.
loamfeet says: May 9, 2014 at 3:19 pm
Congrats to Hearts. Excuse my ignorance – does this mean that the club is out of administration now or is there more to the process?
===========================
Not quite there yet. There will be a few legal niceties to be sorted out, BDO to finalise all their fees and expenses, before BDO go to the Court of Session to formally end the administration period.
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:16 pm
As I said it is all doable but risky due to the unknowns.
Time will tell us how the season ticket thing has gone.
However the risk is all related to keeping a football club going.
King may mump his gums and get as many legends as he wants but the power and control is with the shareholders, who other than the Easdales have no connection to Glasgow let alone Rangers. If thye have to pull the plug they will do so easily because, ‘it is just business’.
The ‘starve them out’ approach, if successful, will just result in someone picking up a shell of a stripped out business. To get is restarted then most of King’s kid’s inheritance will be eaten up within six months or so and we are back to stage 1.
StevieBC says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:24 pm
1 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:10 pm
[GW] Summary:
…my bonus is discretionary…
========================
Would be interesting to know the exact wording from GW on this specific point DP, if you can remember offhand ?
Can’t believe it is not guaranteed: perhaps the timing of the payment had an element of discretion / variance ?
GW knew the mess he was walking into at TRFC, and the potential risk to his own reputation.
IMO, he must have been in a fairly strong negotiating position – including insisting that his bonus was safely set aside for collection on completion of his remit, [or on completion of a relatively short-term milestone as agreed upfront – e.g. to get TRFC in one piece to the close season ?].
————
Redundancies = restructuring to better position us
Hey what do you know – managed to get a post on the top of a new page.
Moderators, please don’t delete anything earlier and ‘relocate’ me 🙂
wottpi says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:38 pm
1 0 Rate This
Hey what do you know – managed to get a post on the top of a new page.
Moderators, please don’t delete anything earlier and ‘relocate’ me.
——–
Congrats wottpi! Myself, I tend to start at the bottom of the page and work backwards. Doesn’t everybody?
Just had a peek at the #readytolisten tweets and can anyone guarantee that it was GW answering selective questions and not the new PR guru? Hmmmmmmm.
Its not gone down well on RM.
Paulmac2 says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:27 pm
ECOBHOY says:
May 9, 2014 at 2:54 pm
…………………………….
‘As I have said before on here I don’t think anyone can ‘buy’ a football club because I believe it actually belongs solely to the supporters who carry it in their hearts and it can only die when all its supporters die IMO’
……………………………
It’s a lovely thought….and one that leads me to ask will those same fans please consider paying the £40+ million owed to creditors….before we all get too misty eyed and start to reminisce on how football used to be…
So lets not forget those people whose business and livelihoods were placed in jeopardy by this club…regardless of the Barbara Cartland style romantic idea of what a football club means to people.
””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
You have only cherry-picked from my concept of a club to suit your agenda presumably and for some reason you appear to have a down on Barbara Cartland 😎
I made it clear what my club meant to me and you may deride my position but you will never ever stop me thinking as I do and yes, for the record, I am a romantic and long may I continue to be so because that’s one of the main reasons I have supported Celtic for almost 60 years.
The cold hard facts of life outwith the football bubble is that every day of the week companies go bust and people lose their jobs and creditors are stiffed. It isn’t right – of course it isn’t but it’s a fact of life and football is no different from any other industry or sector.
Although of course football is different to a certain extent in that intra-football debts are paid if a ‘club’ is to be allowed to continue playing. To me it’s obscene that football becomes ‘protected’ while staff lose their jibs, creditors suffer and taxes which fund vital social services are left unpaid.
And let me recommend to you that you should try and find time for ‘lovely thoughts’ in your life as I think it might give you a more balanced and reflective outlook particularly towards your club which you shouldn’t really regard as an integral part of a money-making machine.
It is way beyond that base consideration to any supporter who shares my ‘lovely thoughts’ and who actually enjoys Barabara Cartland 😳
I don’t think there should be any board bonuses in light of the state rangers are in and the fact there may be redundancies, but such things should really be considered in proportion. It’s not a fair situation at all, but in the grand scheme of things bear in mind that Barclays announced up to 12,000 redundancies yesterday, do you think directors of Barclays will be forgoing their bonuses? The big boys always get paid.
amacant says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:45 pm
Just had a peek at the #readytolisten tweets and can anyone guarantee that it was GW answering selective questions and not the new PR guru? Hmmmmmmm.
Its not gone down well on RM.
==================================================
If GW was really genuine about engaging with the fans, then at the other extreme from Twitter he could have conducted a live webcast from the Louden Tavern, with Wallace taking questions directly from the fans.
[If he was brave enough.]
Utilising Twitter seems like the most impersonal – and possibly most inappropriate – medium for trying to reconnect with the disgruntled fans at this stage in proceedings.
[Thanks for update DP: don’t believe ‘him’. 😉 ]
Great result for Hearts fans:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27347133
And not a word about having a ‘rightful place’. Credit and good wishes to all who worked to achieve this.
Martin says:
May 9, 2014 at 4:07 pm
Great result for Hearts fans:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27347133
And not a word about having a ‘rightful place’. Credit and good wishes to all who worked to achieve this.
======================================
Absolutely M, really pleased for the Jambos.
And perhaps one for the future: inviting Ann Budge to a TSFM podcast ?
She must have a fascinating story from Hearts fan to business woman, and why she decided to become involved as a Scottish football club owner – when most folk with money would run in the other direction !
But good on her.
StevieBC,
I’m sure Ann Budge has a fascinating story to tell.
wottpi says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:36 pm
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:16 pm
As I said it is all doable but risky due to the unknowns. Time will tell us how the season ticket thing has gone. However the risk is all related to keeping a football club going.
King may mump his gums and get as many legends as he wants but the power and control is with the shareholders, who other than the Easdales have no connection to Glasgow let alone Rangers. If thye have to pull the plug they will do so easily because, ‘it is just business’.
The ‘starve them out’ approach, if successful, will just result in someone picking up a shell of a stripped out business. To get is restarted then most of King’s kid’s inheritance will be eaten up within six months or so and we are back to stage 1.
==========================================
I have never ever thought King was the answer but then I can’t be sure that the mouth-music from King is just that or whether it is merely a cover for his actual plan and objective. I would normally say that he can’t be that stupid as to pump money in – not necessarily his money – and run with the old commercial model and fan beliefs. I have never understood his previous investment in Rangers although I have also never been too sure how accurate/comprehensive the published details are.
But I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment: ‘ the risk is all related to keeping a football club going’. That’s the bit I can’t understand about the spiv shareholders – why are they still there exposing themself to that risk which will increase if there is a significant ST shortfall?
I started off giving Wallace the benefit of the doubt but no longer trust him for a variety of reasons which are really neither here nor there because his future will be determined by whether the Bears trust him in enough numbers or not.
If they don’t he’ll be chopped and replaced. Btw I don’t think the Greenock Easdales would regard themselves as connected to Glasgow. So I would say that no one on the Board is connected to Glasgow and I doubt if any of them have a passionate interest in Rangers.
Great result for Hearts fans:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27347133
And not a word about having a ‘rightful place’. Credit and good wishes to all who worked to achieve this.
————————————–
Thanks to all posters for the good wishes for Hearts and all involved,
Enough young lads coming through at all levels to hopefully kick on from here, and perform against whatever the championship sides have to offer, looking forward to making friends. 😉
A very relieved lurker today. 🙂
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 3:51 pm
Eco and Paul
There are, I think, two distinct strands to your discussion, that are in some ways mutually exclusive
The first is the purely legalistic rules based strand,in that sense Paul is right, the club died, with the company, or at least it will when the liquidation process completes. I have no argument with this, and is the approach the governing bodies should have taken.
The second strand is tied up with peoples identity, this is a deeply personal thing, and I don’t believe anyone has the right, or even the moral imperative to tell someone that they can’t identify themselves as a Ranger’s fan or even a Jedi Knight!.
The great saga maker Snorri Sturlson said it best:
“Friends die, kinsmen die,
Time itself must die,
But, one thing I know that never dies
Is the fame of each man dead.
Friends die, kinsmen die,
Time itself must die,
But, one thing I know that never dies
Is each man’s verdict, on each man dead”
Ranger’s fans can identify themselves as Ranger’s fans, whatever the corporate origins of the team in blue playing somewhere in the Glasgow area. I only stipulate that they take all the history, you can’t celebrate the British Empire, without also owning the castration of the Mau Mau, going to war with China so we could sell their citizens illegal drugs etc etc etc
Congratulations to Hearts.
Now that they seem to have got there, I think it might be relevant to reflect on one pretty sobering fact. If it had not been for Ann Budge being able and willing to put her wealth on the line upfont there may have been a different outcome here.
Hearts are lucky to have such a person and others may not be so lucky. The fact that the fans seem to have been able to band together behind her and FoH has no doubt helped immeasurably. But if Ann Budge had not been there and if the FoH bid had therefore been less financially credible, such unanimity might not have occurred and, as we have seen elsewhere, the lack of a united supporter base allows all sorts to creep between the cracks.
I genuinely wish Hearts well, they and their fans have borne this process largely without complaint, vitriol or hubris.
Congratulations also to Bryan Jackson and BDO – who continue their own long unbeaten run.
Campbellsmoney says:
May 9, 2014 at 4:29 pm
“Congratulations also to Bryan Jackson and BDO – who continue their own long unbeaten run.”
Will Govan prove to be BDO’s Waterloo in 2015 of all years?
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 2:54 pm
1 10 Rate This
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:33 pm
I made my position clear as to how I would regard Celtic if they were in Rangers’ position and I don’t care whether anyone agrees with that or even whether it is legally correct or not. It is what my heart believes and therein lies the sterility of the Rangers oldco/newco argument IMO which is being overtaken by time and/or events and tens of thousands of Bears still support Rangers and see the club as ‘continuing’.
My position is that it doesn’t actually matter whether they are right or wrong – it’s what they believe.
———————————————————————————————————————————————–
Govan fans can believe what they want as it was their club and emotionally they will want to believe that they still exist as the same club. I sympathize to a certain extent with that approach from their fans. I do NOT expect a SMSM and SFA or anyone else outwith Ibrox to promote or hold the same view concerning one club to the detriment of all other clubs and their fans. Terms like demoted, relegated, armaggedon without them, fabric of society, relocated, dropped int 3rd div, conditional licence, all these terms never came out of Ibrox. This is what really concerns and worries me, why for the past 2 years is the Ibrox club’s status still unclear?
Last week someone posted about the article written by Glenn Gibbons in the aftermath of the Chelsea/Atletico game . Gibbons told a story about remarks made by Jock Stein before the 1967 Euoropean final. The article reminded me of an interview on BBC Grandstand, before the 1970 semi final versus Leeds United. Jock was interviewed by David Coleman along these lines =
DC. Do you not feel you are at a disadvantage against Leeds?
JS Why should we?
DC. Well, Leeds play in the English First Division, and have highly competitive games every week.
JS Put it this way. I could organise a100 yard race every other week at Celtic Park, with a prize of 1000 pounds. Nobody would break the world record, but the competition would be tremendous.
End of discussion. Needless to say Celtic won both legs.
Update on letter from TSFM to Harper MacLeod re (Mis) Commissioning of the LNS Investigation.
No reply received.
No reply from LNS or Charles Flint either.
It’s as if (gasp) they were never asked.
Cmon boys cough. The distinction between irregular ebts and ebts still under judgement was never clear to the SPL.
Some at the SFA knew the difference but said nowt and SPL were too busy trying to fashion a desired result they never thought to ask their corridor chums if any distinction existed.
Did nobody in either football authority know about ebts and side letters until 2012? Really? In the village that is Scottish football no one knew before 2012?
If anyone did know but failed to act at the time, like the registration guys at both SFA and SPL, if you asked the same folk to investigate a few years later would they want what they already knew, but failed to act on, to come out?
Just asking.
We know HMRC asked Rangers about side letters in 2005, would they have asked either SFA or SPL afterwards as they built a case, if either had knowledge of the full ebt operation?
Questions like this could be set aside if the SPFL explained their approach to the Commission and the impact of being misled about regular and irregular ebts in creating the terms of reference for it.
You would think the SPFL Board would be asking their officials when they were first aware of the possibility that ebts were being used by Rangers and what they did about it.
Sorry, I should have included that Jock made one stipulation about entrants for his race. EVERYBODY HAD TO BE OVER 70 !!!
Congratulations to HMFC on securing their future.
My bestie is a Jambo.
I’m delighted for him.
Smugas says:
May 9, 2014 at 9:09 am
“One thought occurs though. If King was to form an alliance of enemies with Whyte could that also freeze the assets out of RIFC?”
—————————————-
I’m not sure it would necessarily be an alliance of enemies. no-one can be sure how current alliances are set up and how they might shift given certain circumstances.
I’ve been mulling this over and words fail me but I’ll have a go.
David Murray needed out; he was never a football man anyway, just an opportunist. Dave King was a Rangers man and wanted his alleged £20M back. Cue the plan.
Put as much distance between DM and Rangers as possible. The precise quantum: One Craig Whyte duping + one administration + one liquidation + one Charles Green duping + one £67M financial charade + perhaps another administration/liquidation. Phew, hopefully that’s shaken them off DM.
Dave II meanwhile waits for the music to stop and the game of pass the parcel to end.
Result : David Murray rides off into the sunset with BDO pretending to pursue him. HMRC aren’t given any horses so they stand hopefully cheering on BDO’s gallant efforts.
Dave King gets a Rangers that no longer has the pall of the EBT scandal hanging over it. No title stripping, no substantial financial penalties and a support that will be happy for any crumbs of comfort he is willing to offer them. CW gives him the deeds before joining pals Imran and Charles in a reunion.
Perhaps that is what £20m gets you. A stadium and training ground, complete absolution from sporting malpractice, immunity from legal sanction and a customer base that will kiss your feet.
Some people might call that a good deal if you can get it.
Thanks to all for the good wishes towards my club, The Hearts. It’s been a great help to me through this past year that so many regular posters on TSFM have shown a desire to see Hearts survive and have responded with the understanding of what all football fans feel about their club. Really emotional right now, can’t wait till work finishes at 11pm so I can have a wee drink; not in celebration, just a wee toast to Ann Budge and all the others who have worked so hard to make this day possible.
We have had many a King, Ace and perhaps even the odd knave, of Hearts, but now we have our first ever Queen. Changed days indeed.
Auldheid says:
May 9, 2014 at 4:40 pm
“Cmon boys cough. The distinction between irregular ebts and ebts still under judgement was never clear to the SPL.”
————————————-
I think the evidence is fairly clear. It may be ignored but that will not make it go away. In a pre-internet environment ignoring awkward questions may have been a tenable approach. Only the stuff the agenda setters wanted discussed got discussed. However in the new world this information could resurface over and over again and potentially at the most inconvenient times. It’s a mine field for the sporting authorities.
Don’t expect to see a white flag but there could be endless erratic manoeuvres and the occasional shock wave. Given sufficient time the whole thing is likely to shake itself to bits.
redetin says:
May 9, 2014 at 12:01 pm
http://www.lse.co.uk/share-regulatory-news.asp?shareprice=RFC&ArticleCode=41l07yw4&ArticleHeadline=Holdings_in_Company
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I’d have thought the error in share price (0.23p rather than £0.23) would have been corrected during the course of the afternoon but it is still showing as it was when you first posted six hours ago.
Even at £0.23 this is still below the current offer of around £0.27. All seems a bit strange.
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 2:30 pm
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scottc says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:51 pm
It’s a pretty basic mistake to make though, isn’t it. I wonder if it was the new PR guy who released it, or Daniel Stewart?
===================================
The actual release is provided to AIM by RNS which is the internal news service for the market but I would have thought that the information would have been supplied to RNS by Newgate Threadneedle who does the AIM Financial PR for RFC.
Hey, who knows, maybe he only did pay a fathing a share 😆
After all when Green, Allie and Imran got theirs for 1p they were reckoned to be worh a quid each so .25p when they are trading at only around 25p is spot-on
————————————————————————————————
The thing is with any other company you would immediately accept this as an honest mistake, to be quickly corrected.
With these guys…..
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
…..and Hearts!
Agree that I can’t see where the return is coming from for investors who have no attachment to the club. .
Even if successful on the park any rewards are still a long long way off.
As discussed the other day even a Euro final in 2008 didn’t bring any financial rewards they currently seek.
Therefore IMHO King is being honest in saying investment over the next few years is likely to be money pee’d up against a wall.
Therefore why are folk still there and why could they be ready to plough more cash in?
For me that’s the big mystery.
I’m not the brightest guy of the planet but neither am I a dullard.
If some genius could tell me where the return (or some kind of tax dodge offsetting etc) was for the millions invested and when the rewards might materialize then I would go away a happy man and say good luck and let them get on with it.
Unless these guys have a hot line to Euro Football Franchise Top Division Central with buckets of TV cash guaranteed to boot I just can’t see where the return is other than owning property assets that can be held onto until the time is right.
Throwing good money after bad at a football team doesn’t seem to be the way to make money.
Actually, there is another person who could make for an interesting podcast, Bryan Jackson, and I would mean about football administrations in general rather than concentrating on what happened at Ibrox
Allyjambo says:
May 9, 2014 at 5:49 pm
My Jambo mate proudly told me today that he sits just a few seats along from Anne Budge.
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
May 9, 2014 at 6:21 pm
“My Jambo mate proudly told me today that he sits just a few seats along from Anne Budge.”
_________________________________________________
If he ever decides to auction his season ticket, he’ll make a fortune 😉
I suspect, though, that she’ll, reluctantly, have to give up her favourite seat and move into the directors’ box, if only to save herself from all that backslapping – and drunken Jambos telling her how much they love her 😆
Castofthousands says: May 9, 2014 at 6:04 pm
Even at £0.23 this is still below the current offer of around £0.27. All seems a bit strange.
================================
The Easdale purchase was made on 1st May but only notified to AIM on 8th May.
The share price went up from 22p to 23p on 1st May. It was the start of the recovery of the SP.
Allyjambo says:
May 9, 2014 at 6:30 pm
Indeed so 😆
A typically understated statement from Ann Budge following today’s news. I don’t think she is a person that will seek to be in the public eye which SHOULD be the norm for football chairpersons.
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 2:54 pm
ecobhoy says:
May 9, 2014 at 1:33 pm
valentinesclown says:
May 9, 2014 at 4:31 pm
My position is that it doesn’t actually matter whether they are right or wrong – it’s what they believe.
———————————————————————————————————
Govan fans can believe what they want as it was their club and emotionally they will want to believe that they still exist as the same club. I sympathize to a certain extent with that approach from their fans.
I do NOT expect a SMSM and SFA or anyone else outwith Ibrox to promote or hold the same view concerning one club to the detriment of all other clubs and their fans. Terms like demoted, relegated, armaggedon without them, fabric of society, relocated, dropped int 3rd div, conditional licence, all these terms never came out of Ibrox. This is what really concerns and worries me, why for the past 2 years is the Ibrox club’s status still unclear?
=========================================
Well seems we are pretty much in agreement because I: ‘Do NOT accept a SMSM. SPFL and SFA or anyone else involved in football governance should promote one club to the detriment of any other club/s and their fans.’
The Rangers status is still unclear after all this time because so many suits were involved in a dirty little fix which they didn’t have the guts to explain and defend.
However my postings on this were more to do with how I viewed my club and I truly long-ago lost interest in attempting to fully understand how Rangers view their club and that was before they went into admin.
Fans end-up with the club they deserve and to look at Hearts I see the hope of a bright future for Jambos in having a club they will be proud of because they’ve worked damned hard to save it.
It could have been all so different for Rangers fans but they were set-up to be a compliant cash-cow and they were betrayed by some Rangers Greats; a lickspittle SMSM and corrupt governance. Yea the culture at Rangers also contributed to the problem.
But their biggest problem IMO was they fell into the hands of spivs. With the right leadership they would have downsized and cut their cloth to suit the division they were in and developed their youth and built-up a warchest for when they reached the top level.
Instead, tens and tens of millions has gone and they are on life-support and it’s still unclear whether they will face another insolvency event although I find it hard to see how that can be avoided mainly because of their inability to drastically cut costs by ditching onerous commercial and player contracts.
We will have to wait to see what happens but we do need to bear witness to what has happened here although it may well be that no one is ever held to account. In the last few months I have seen a lot more realism among sensible Bears I know and I’m not talking about on the internet.
I have the feeling it might be too little and too late but it’s their call and they must decide who they are going to back and it’s a gamble either way IMO.