Podcast Episode 5 – Hibs Takeover ?

A consortium led by David Low has been in talks with Sir Tom Farmer seeking to purchase Hibernian Football Club. The story has been embargoed for a few weeks, but David agreed to speak to TSFM to give us an exclusive interview and provide us with information about his intentions for the Edinburgh club.

Highlights of the interview include the similarities and differences between the Hibs situation and the one he found at Celtic Pak in 1994; how Scottish Football’s “new level playing field” as Low calls it has created an opportunity for a club like Hibs to be the main challenger to Celtic for honours; the contrast of his consortium’s approach to that of the recent debacle at Ibrox; the role of the fans at every level of the club; the future of Allan Stubbs and Leanne Dempster; and the journey back to the Premiership.

Low is frank about his reputation as a well-known Celtic fan, but highlights his Hibbee credentials and his affection for the club, eschewing the “I was always a Hibbee” line taken by so many people seeking to ingratiate themselves with the locals at various clubs.

Certainly, the experience and finance rolling around Low’s consortium is something that any club could do with, but the fans are crucial to their involvement and interest.

He says he won’t go ahead with the purchase unless the fans are behind them.

“Fans have never been so powerful as they are today, especially with the advent of social media like TSFM”

“We have seen in recent years what a body of fans are capable of when they re together”

“We want to have that togetherness at Hibs, because the only way forward is to have trust between the boardroom and the fans, you only have to look at the levels of distrust between board and fans at Rangers to see that it is a recipe for disaster”


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John Cole

About Big Pink

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

2,528 thoughts on “Podcast Episode 5 – Hibs Takeover ?


  1. Danish Pastry says:
    August 23, 2014 at 6:32 pm

    Cheers DP, I think we can take it, from a BBC source as opposed to an uncredited posting on another site, that the figure is fairly accurate and so quote it in posts and discuss it’s implications.


  2. PhilMacGiollaBhain says: August 23, 2014at 7:06 pm 1 0 RateThis

    Not badly run. ‘Onerous contracts’.

    __________

    How many of the original investors benefit? And what will it take to terminate the contracts? Any info on that?


  3. Danish Pastry says:
    August 23, 2014 at 7:33 pm
    0 0 Rate This
    ———————————–
    As I have previously published:
    There are contracts that can only be terminated of RIFC is liquidated.
    I understand that they are “brilliantly put together”.
    Utterly impregnable to legal challenge.


  4. PhilMacGiollaBhain says: August 23, 2014at 7:45 pm 0 0 RateThis

    As I have previously published: There are contracts that can only be terminated of RIFC is liquidated. I understand that they are “brilliantly put together”. Utterly impregnable to legal challenge
    ____

    Thought I’d read most of your recent blogs Phil, but missed the liquidation release bit. Seems to imply the same club myth has had the desired effect. Not sure if that qualifies as irony or karma?


  5. Allyjambo says:
    August 23, 2014 at 6:48 pm
    3 0 Rate This
    ———————————————–
    A certain ‘onerous contract’ does kick in when the home crowd is over 40,000.
    It triggers a payment.


  6. Danish Pastry says:
    August 23, 2014 at 8:00 pm
    —————————————————–
    I was recently told-by an excellent source who has had ‘eyes on’ these contracts-that many years from now they will be used as case studies to teach baby lawyers.
    They are that airtight.


  7. PhilMacGiollaBhain says: August 23, 2014at 8:21 pm 1 0 RateThis

    I was recently told-by an excellent source who has had ‘eyes on’ these contracts-that many years from now they will be used as case studies to teach baby lawyers. They are that airtight.

    _________

    Fascinating. Stockbridge the brains behind these? Or a joint effort by the main characters?


  8. Allyjambo says:
    August 23, 2014 at 5:32 pm

    Some of this crowd will be freebies as anyone who was a Clydeside volunteer or member of the Opening and Closing Ceremonies for the Commonwealth Gsmes was being given free tickets on production of their Games Accreditations….


  9. PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
    August 23, 2014 at 8:20 pm

    A certain ‘onerous contract’ does kick in when the home crowd is over 40,000. It triggers a payment.
    ——————————–
    So they saved a bob or two today then 😀


  10. Danish Pastry says

    August 23 2014. at 8.26pm

    Methinks look at Field Fisher.


  11. Danish Pastry says:
    August 23, 2014 at 8:26 pm

    PhilMacGiollaBhain says: August 23, 2014at 8:21 pm 1 0 RateThis

    I was recently told-by an excellent source who has had ‘eyes on’ these contracts-that many years from now they will be used as case studies to teach baby lawyers. They are that airtight.

    _________

    Fascinating. Stockbridge the brains behind these? Or a joint effort by the main characters?
    _________________________-

    Probably created by a bunch of high priced lawyers of low morals, who put together such contracts in the same way some accountants/porn stars put together tax ‘avoidance’ schemes. Hints of poetic justice, perhaps?


  12. weescotsman says:
    August 23, 2014 at 8:28 pm

    I thought I’d read something about that, just couldn’t remember in what context. Whether or not the freebies were included in the crowd figure, or how many would be given away, I expect we’ll never know.


  13. oddjob says: August 23, 2014at 8:37 pm 2 0 RateThis

    Methinks look at Field Fisher.
    ________

    Ah, Vine Street, wasn’t Craig Whyte (for it is he) associated with that address? It’s all very labyrinthine and confusing, no doubt by design.


  14. Allyjambo says

    August 23 2014 at 8.20pm

    See my post a few minutes ago and refer back to some excellent work by cast of thousands. These lawyers have been involved in the Sevco operation since the inception of said company. They were directly involved in the original registration of the company.


  15. oddjob says:
    August 23, 2014 at 9:06 pm

    You could well be right, though whether or not they fit my description, I just couldn’t possibly comment 🙄
    To be honest, I don’t know, but such contracts must surely be the brainchild of someone interested only in using the law to make money, with no concern at all for any innocent victims.


  16. Danish Pastry says:
    August 23, 2014 at 8:26 pm
    —————————————————

    Stockbridge had no hand act or part in these contracts.

    However,I can’t write anymore on that here at the moment.


  17. PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
    August 23, 2014 at 9:21 pm
    4 1 Rate This

    Stockbridge had no hand act or part in these contracts.

    However,I can’t write anymore on that here at the moment.
    ———-

    Nae bother, you’ve already been quite candid, although every answer leads to a new question, so I’d better get tae ma scratcher 🙂


  18. Danish Pastry says:
    August 23, 2014 at 5:29 pm
    21 0 Rate This

    upthehoops says:
    August 23, 2014 at 5:01 pm
    6 1 Rate This
    ———-

    SSB isn’t blocked in my region (Sportsound is on Saturday afternoon). I can tell you that this afternoon the idea of McCoist being linked with CP was openly mocked as being a story put about by one of Ally’s pals in the press.

    So even SSB think it’s bollocks.
    ========================
    Thanks DP. Unfortunately Radio Scotland gave it credence. It is, in my opinion, an insult to intelligent people to suggest McCoist is wanted by an EPL club. As I said Radio Scotland gave it credence. Licence fee payers deserve better, they really do. .


  19. oddjob says:
    August 23, 2014 at 9:06 pm

    “They were directly involved in the original registration of the company.”
    —————————
    I appreciate the name check but have to pick you up on the inception of the Sevco ‘vehicle’. I suspect that Sevco 5088 was just one of many such shell companies that are created and placed on the shelf for future use. This particular shell was first registered to a Cardiff address of ‘7 Side Secretarial’ in late March of 2012. A month or so later the £1 share in this company was disposed of and transferred to Charles Green.

    The initial address for Sevco 5088 was the Limeharbour one associated with Craig Whyte. However Charles himself upon aquiring the £1 share used the same address as 7 Side Secretarial, which may indicate he was in with the bricks.

    A few days after CG’s entry on 9th May 2012, Korissa, Liberty/Willow all take shares and Craig and Aiden Earley take their directors seats.

    Having just done a bit of digging on 7 Side Secretarial, I did not find what I expected. They seem to have had an interest in a wind farm for the last two years. How this ties in with Charles one can only speculate. The addresses are the same however. Here’s an excerpt from the Company Check website to entertain and bamboozle you.

    http://companycheck.co.uk/director/917137112/–7-SIDE-SECRETARIAL-LIMITED/financial-accounts#company-accounts-table

    Nothing is ever straightforward in this saga.


  20. Danish Pastry says:
    August 23, 2014 at 6:32 pm

    ” Also refused what looked like a stonewall. There’s one for the statisticians :)”
    —————————
    I’ll see your quirky remark and raise you a layer of bamboozlement.

    These tables can easily become confusing so I’ll explain a couple of examples and see if you can get the drift.

    There are two tabs; Rangers vs teams and Celtic vs teams.

    What I am trying to show here is how other teams fare when pitched against the big two. To make things more complicated I’ve considered home and away matches separately. So on the ‘Rangers vs teams’ tab the list of ‘Home Teams’ are exactly that; so Rangers are away. When the list below this is headed ‘Away team’, then it means Rangers are at home.

    Lost already? You soon will be.

    upthehoops wonders the effect on a referee of handling a game at an atmospheric venue like Tynecastle, so lets have a look.

    For Rangers vs teams – When Hearts are the home team the chances of a home red (HR) are 0.1 (1 in 10), which is what you expect but the chance of an away red (Rangers) is 0.2. So Rangers are twice as likely to get a man sent off at Tynecastle than Hearts.
    When Hearts are the away team however the chance of an away red is 0.3 (3 in 10) which is three times the average.

    For Celtic vs teams – When Hearts are the home team they have a HR value of 0.2 whilst their opponents (Celtic) have an AR value of 0.1. Are Celtic less phased by the Tynecastle atmosphere?
    When Hearts are away to Celtic then AR is 0 and HR is 0 which is very low considering this is from 20 games.

    Hopefully youse will get the hang of it and make sense. The file should open right up as its been stripped of anything complicated.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/mvw575raocv5yk0/Rangers%20and%20Celtic%20vs%20teams.xls?dl=0


  21. Castofthousands says:
    August 24, 2014 at 12:32 am
    1 0 Rate This

    I’ll see your quirky remark and raise you a layer of bamboozlement.
    ————–

    A record of cards and/or penalties given is not something that really interests me. I’m not sure what it actually proves or disproves. I suppose you could also create a list of stonewallers not given. But it gets very subjective.

    For me, a worthwhile list would be one about referee sympathies similar to the English system. Refs should probably be obliged to make known which team they support. Would also love to see some kind ref exchange system with our neighbouring countries, probably impossible at present, but it could be worthwhile.

    Anything that makes the game more transparently fair can only be good for fans and the sport.


  22. Since the Malky Mackay story looks set to run and run, here’s an interesting and very relevant comment from The Mail debate section:

    One of striking features of Mackay story is that Moody’s house was raided under a High Court warrant granted in secret & executed by Vincent Tan’s lawyers. Search Order for Moody’s home granted by High Court in private. Cardiff’s lawyers say they only granted in “exceptional circumstances”. Apparently this was done under what used to be known as a Anton_Piller order.

    So hostile lawyers can get a high court order to carry out a dawn raid on your house, without any police involvement, take or record private emails and texts that are not illegal and as far as I can work out have nothing to do with any investigation, and hand them over to the press.

    The press then use them to launch a campaign of character assassination. Seriously people, wtf is going on here?

    This chap has described rather well what I was attempting to express concern about yesterday, though far more concisely than I did. At present I only see other newspapers quoting The Mail, which is laying it on thick. Was this part of a deal entered into in order to obtain the private texts? And still no news about the reason for the ‘raids’ — dodgy transfers — which, if they exist, seem to be less important than making sure two former employees of Cardiff City are destroyed. Mackay and Moody probably won’t be working again any time soon, but will people be queuing up to be employed by Cardiff City if there’s an alternative club available?


  23. Castofthousands says:
    August 23, 2014 at 11:22 pm

    RE: SEVCO 5088
    ======================================

    @CoT – you might find a few bits of interest in a post I did last September wrt Sevco 5088:

    http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/09/09/mystery-directors-and-the-rangers-sevco-5088-switcheroo-by-ecojon/

    And another post by Paul McConville – as usual very thoughtful and insightful – RIP Big Man: http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/charles-green-denies-whytesevco-5088-documents-are-correct-or-valid-but-are-they-genuine/


  24. Rangers boss Ally McCoist vows to remain at Ibrox after being linked with Crystal Palace

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-boss-ally-mccoist-vows-4098101
    ===============================================
    Now there’s a surprise 🙄

    Can’t see the bulk of the fans or the board being very happy about McCoist’s ‘Loyalty’ but I’m sure Crystal Palace and its fans will be heaving a huge sigh of relief 😆

    I think initial speculation that it was all a manufactured puff piece is confirmed by McCoist who states: ‘There has been no contact at all with Crystal Palace’.

    However on the card stats it was interesting to see McCoist comment that Bilel Mohsni should have been sent off for a last-man foul. He added: “There was certainly a case for a red card.”


  25. If McCoist was to move on do you think he would be able to contribute to the Ibrox coffers like his predessors with offering silly money in transfers for the quality players he has nurtured at Ibrox,eh hold on a minute there’s a slight problem here.


  26. Danish Pastry says:
    August 24, 2014 at 7:47 am
    32 1 Rate This

    Key point about an Anton Piller order:

    “It does not authorise the Plaintiffs’ Solicitors or anyone else to enter the Defendant’s premises against his will. It does not authorise the breaking down of any doors, nor the slipping in by a back door, nor getting in by an open door or window. It only authorises entry and inspection by the permission of the Defendants.”

    But the sting in the tail

    “It brings pressure on the Defendants to give permission. It does more. It actually orders him to give permission—with, I suppose, the result that if he does not give permission, he is guilty of contempt of Court.”

    So no kicking in doors, just a quick trip to the courts if you say no. A classic Lord Denning fudge.


  27. Interesting article about the challenges in football, such as lack of morality.
    And the quote below jumped out.

    “…Fifa’s latest charade, their decision to hold a conference on ethical sports leadership, is faintly insulting to anyone with an IQ above 14. The world needs no lectures on morality and social responsibility from the likes of Sepp Blatter…”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-last-word-this-is-footballs-tipping-point-9687633.html


  28. James Doleman says:
    August 24, 2014 at 1:14 pm
    8 1 Rate This

    Key point about an Anton Piller order:
    —————

    Cheers for chipping in James. I thought it was an interesting post in the comments section of The Mail.

    You’d think they must have had some persuasive evidence regarding Moody and or Mackay about the transfer activity to be able to get this type of search to go ahead.


  29. @StevieBC

    Very powerful article. Sums up a lot about the unattractive freak show the EPL is becoming.

    This bit about ‘opaque business practices’ describes the main topic discussed on here and RTC.

    Football is a contradiction, a people business which treats people abysmally while relying on human networks and deeply personal loyalties. It is not such a great leap, then, to the casual obscenities and alleged opaque business practices which define the Mackay case.


  30. Interesting to see the crowd at Ibrox yesterday was just over 31k.
    So somewhere between 7k-10k lower than the average attendance last year.
    How does this affect the finances if this was to continue?
    Phil mentioned that one of the ‘onerous contracts’ kicked in if the crowd goes over 40k. Is this offset by the security charges/catering loses of only 31k attending?
    There is still the loans to be repaid.
    Rumours abound of over £600k worth of invoices unpaid.
    Has the VAT been paid on the season ticket money?
    Imran Ahmed is still lurking with a court case. Will he attempt again to ring fence cash?

    Will there be company or lender strong enough to force the issue of non-payment in court?
    That was the problem the last time, debts went unpaid for months on end, until HMRC had had enough.
    Is the wheel of misfortune now spinning again and, if it is, who will be the fall guy this time?


  31. justshatered says:
    August 24, 2014 at 5:43 pm

    Will there be company or lender strong enough to force the issue of non-payment in court?
    That was the problem the last time, debts went unpaid for months on end, until HMRC had had enough.
    ================================================
    Even HMRC waited a while. Wasn’t it the case they allowed 5 months on unpaid tax before moving in, and even then they only moved in once Whyte went public on his administration intentions. So even an organisation of their might seemed reluctant to move at a pace they seem to with others. Mind you, many elected MP’s first response was to demand that HMRC go lightly on them. Sad, but true.


  32. upthehoops says:
    August 24, 2014 at 6:30 pm

    Still debts are, or appear to be, racking up again.

    The figures do not add up.
    Anyone with a basic understanding of arithmetic knows this.
    The only thing that seems to keep the wolf from the door is the perpetual stories of a new ‘sugar daddy’ which to most observers appear fanciful or a share offering which seems even more fanciful.

    Meanwhile the debt clock continues to run and crowds of only 31k will not bring financial salvation any closer in fact they will ensure a second armageddon.


  33. philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-four-million-pound-question/#more-5007 …


  34. justshatered says:
    August 24, 2014 at 6:52 pm
    0 0 Rate This

    Still debts are, or appear to be, racking up again.
    =================================

    Indeed, but who will have the backbone to call the debts in? I speak hypothetically, but how do we know they’re not behind on tax?


  35. jean7brodie says:
    August 24, 2014 at 6:59 pm

    http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-four-million-pound-question/
    ———————————————————————————————-
    “…the only saving grace in all of this is that two top class professionals are driving the bus…”

    I do worry at times that Phil is suffering from some variant of the Stockholm syndrome.

    Two interesting points I felt – just what proxy votes do the Easdales hold (a stumbling block?) and the implication that Wallace and Nash were techy. If so, is this evidence that their positions are becoming untenable due to a lack of shareholder backing?

    Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.


  36. Danish Pastry says:
    August 24, 2014 at 6:24 am

    “For me, a worthwhile list would be one about referee sympathies similar to the English system.”
    —————————-
    The best I can do is present the data in a manner that can be easily digested. Here is a table that shows red cards by referee and team. A referee needs to have officiated said team at least 10 times for a value to occur. As before, 0.1 (1 in 10) is the rough average concerning red cards. So values of 0.3 and above may indicate something unusual is happening.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ko05g4ejnb8g2z3/Referee%20vs%20teams.xls?dl=0


  37. redlichtie says:
    August 24, 2014 at 8:40 pm
    I do worry at times that Phil is suffering from some variant of the Stockholm syndrome.
    ———————————————–
    I see a lot to admire in these two chaps.
    Especially Nash.
    Steady under fire and all that.


  38. I do hope, Phil, that you’re not blowing the gaffe on your impeccable source within the bowels of Hades.

    Or is this the best bluff since Johnny Moss took Nick the Greek to the cleaners?


  39. ean7brodie says:
    August 24, 2014 at 6:59 pm

    http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-four-million-pound-question/
    ———————————————————————————————-
    “…the only saving grace in all of this is that two top class professionals are driving the bus…”
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Well
    These guys are certainly professional in one respect
    And its paying themselves way over the market rate for the job
    Not a surprise really
    Its par for the course if you are doing the bidding of Spivs
    But totally out of order for TRFC
    So I can`t really see them as careful bus drivers
    In any event
    TRFC`s destination is not where current STs holders want to go to
    It`s a destination set by Spivs who employ the bus drivers
    i.e.
    A situation where TRFC is milked forever
    So in my view
    This bus has no blue ribbons
    These Drivers don`t wear blazers
    There are no bluenoses on board
    Only a bunch of Spivs
    People with previous for treading the edges of legality
    People with no reputations to sacrifice
    The name of the game is how to keep milking the business
    Thats the only driver in this saga
    Everything has to be viewed in this context
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Forget about trust
    Forget about integrity
    Forget about reputations
    Forget about dross on the park
    Think money
    Think staying just within the law
    Think cheating the gullible
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    If you do that
    The real aim is
    How to get TRFC to survive until the number of gullible fans is restored to a level where milking is guaranteed in perpetuity
    Which raises issues like
    How to guarantee big games at Ibrox in the next 6 months
    Like
    SC and LC matches against Celtic
    Like
    SC and LC semi finals and finals at the expense of more suitable venues
    Like
    How to keep Creditors at bay
    Glasgow District Council, Strathclyde Police, H&S, HMRC
    Like
    How to shame the Manager into giving up his bonus
    That’s what its really all about


  40. Phil,

    Are you/is he saying that Sevco have £5m in an account unused (with circa 1m lined up for VAT) from ST’s. Separate to this there is whatever is left of Letham’s loans and winning fees in the operative account.

    To be clear, are you saying they can get to October on the operative funds alone, or the operative, plus ST’s less o/s liabilities? Surely Deloittes have to release the ST funds at some point. Surely they’re not going to insist that Sevco find enough thru a share issue to fund them to the season end and then, and only then, release the ST’s as well?


  41. Deloittes are not in a position to prevent Rangers using the Season Book money if the Board decided to. Such executive control would be incompatible with their role as Auditors.

    Deloitte have likely raised the question of how they are going to get to the end of next year. Based on cash forecasts they will have warned the board that they will be in danger of being charged with trading while insolvent if they blow the lot at this early stage of the season and then go bankrupt.

    Deloites themselves probably fear disciplinary action and lawsuits should they sign off the accounts on a going concern and creditors get stiffed again.

    If Rangers can get a ahare issue underwritten for over £10m they may get the accounts signed on a going concern basis. The underwriting contract would have to signed off though, not a vague undertaking.

    That would appear to be Wallaces mission. Not an easy one considering the recent history and that of the previous club, The Stockbridge question, the short term loans due for repayment and mystery offshore holdings don’t make it an easy selling task.

    If there is a £12m loan on offer I would expect them to be desperate to grab it; unless the terms were Wonga like.

    No sign of a strategy at Ibrox just a lurch from one crisis to another, all the while getting weaker.


  42. Den at 11.49pm. Correct in your view of Deloittes position, I would say that ST cash is released home game by home game to the board, thus keeping the auditors legally onside as a going concern club. The board need to have that signing off as a going concern in their accounts later this year or the game is up for TRFC. They will do whatever is necessary to get that signature.


  43. Den says:
    August 24, 2014 at 11:49 pm
    ‘…Deloittes are not in a position to prevent Rangers using the Season Book money if the Board decided to. Such executive control would be incompatible with their role as Auditors…’
    ———
    I’m so glad you said that!

    I’m not at all knowledgeable about these things, but I could not imagine how a firm of Auditors could ever prevent a company’s board from spending its money any way they wished to.

    But there must be some huge pressure on Deloittes!!!
    They are being paid ( probably quite handsomely) by a client. They naturally do not wish to lose that client. But that client is something of a basket case-there is no unanimity among Board members, no trenchant and decisive leadership to effect the financial changes that are absolutely required, no capacity to raise essential finance in the market, AND a persistent, blind Micawber-like readiness to believe that some (South African, or middle-eastern, or far-eastern ) sun-god will fly through the ether to save them, with a nice wee £12M. Can any Auditors deal effectively with that scenario?

    Deloittes know that if they even appear to the ‘market’, or to the Regulators, to be buggering about and in effect helping a dodgy company by not being absolutely honest about the company’s finances, they will lose not just one client, but their entire reputation, and with that, any hope in the future of having any blue chip, or any honest company, asking for their Audit services.

    It seems to me that Deloittes will shortly have to make a decision-they will need EITHER to discreetly withdraw their services from RIFC plc, OR announce that they cannot in conscience say that RIFC plc will be able to carry on as a ‘going concern’.
    To do neither of these is sure to cause them a lot of grief, well before December.
    But what do I know?

    Much more importantly, what does the SFA know? Is there any contingency planning, in secret,of course, taking place to again ‘protect’ Scottish Football against the very real possibility, nay, the probability, that TRFC will go titties up before the turn of the year? If so, will we be allowed to know what shape that planning is taking?
    Can we guess?
    Of course we can: the SFA, like Macbeth, can say that they are ‘“.. in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er.”
    They betrayed all principle once. Having done so, they would do it again.Unless we stop them.


  44. Danish Pastry says:
    August 24, 2014 at 7:47 am
    ##########################################

    My ineloquence somewhat let me down the other day, but essentially what I was driving at.

    As a side thought, where does all this sit in our post-Leveson world?


  45. “No sign of a strategy at Ibrox just a lurch from one crisis to another, all the while getting weaker.”

    In my view, the strategy has never changed from Day 1 and is being executed consistently – “Do we get more out than we put in and is it legal?”

    There may be footballing crises along the way, but those are irrelevant to the main players. There have been changes of Board members, changes of front men/proxies, but the owners have been the same all along. Their strategy has been consistent throughout.


  46. Two blogs from Phil is quick succession. Makes you wonder: Is the chap with the sandwich-board is approaching? Phil did mention the other night on here that liquidation is what will break the ‘onerous contracts’.

    Graham Wallace’s assurances of no administration would seem to rule out the even more catastrophic spectre of liquidation looming on the horizon.

    On past form, you’d expect the enterprise to muddle on as it has until now. If not though, and a form of liquidation occurs (I counted three types), how will the SFA and SPFL deal with that? Snakes & Ladders or Monopoly rules?

    I remember at least two wee sandwich-board men from the Glasgow of yesteryear: ‘The End is Nigh’ was the most common, I think.


  47. Danish Pastry says:
    August 25, 2014 at 6:53 am

    On past form, you’d expect the enterprise to muddle on as it has until now. If not though, and a form of liquidation occurs (I counted three types), how will the SFA and SPFL deal with that? Snakes & Ladders or Monopoly rules?
    ===========================================

    It appears to be beyond any doubt that not only did the SFA know the previous club from Ibrox was in trouble, and that they also held discussions with Whyte and Co. months prior to February 14 2012. What we don’t know is what assurances, if any, were given at those discussions. The bottom line is a Rangers playing at Ibrox is here to stay whether we like it or not and the SFA appear fully behind that stance. Having said that just what will they do if the money to see out the season simply isn’t there? Phil McG’s source reckons the onerous contracts can only be gotten rid of via liquidation, so administration appears unlikely to be a long term solution. I guess the SFA may simply have to brass neck their way through the most blatant disregard for their own rules yet, and that’s saying something.


  48. A question for those who know much more about financial dealings than I do (pretty much most of you, I guess):

    If the club, TRFC, owe the company, RIFC, some £16m and rising, can one be liquidated without the other?

    In other words, can “the club survived” gibberish be yet again prolonged? Having said that, some Bears, fed up with wading in absurdities, are now saying “it was the TEAM that survived”.


  49. Torquemada says:
    August 25, 2014 at 10:03 am

    some Bears, fed up with wading in absurdities, are now saying “it was the TEAM that survived”.
    =============================
    Well that can’t be the case because of the number of higher-quality players who walked and didn’t TUPE. I would perhaps concede that the B team survived 😆


  50. Seven days until 1 September when the Laxey and Easdales Facilities loans are up.

    “The Easdale Facility and the Laxey Facility (together the “Facilities”) are both secured against the Company’s Edmiston House and Albion car park properties. The principal amounts of the Facilities are repayable no later than 1 September 2014 from a variety of potential sources.”

    Presumably there is room for Mr Letham and the Easdale’s to renegotiate the repayment date if so desired?

    However for a club ‘the size of T’Rangers’ not paying back the £1.5m (to their own) due must surely get people in other places asking the questions we have been asking for a while now and possibly delving deeper into the financial mess?

    As discussed a while back the time for getting assurances about seeing the season out was at the start of the summer, not now that the league and cup campaigns have kicked off.


  51. Just a further wee thought and perhaps a simple one at that but like a Wonga loan…

    If you need £1.5m that means you have already spent it, owed it to someone else or were going to spend it.
    If you do not pay it back that means you have also spent the £1.5 plus interest that you should have been putting aside.

    Therefore that means there is a good chance that as the business is still in operations and has outgoings there is a good chance you have spent at least £3m in the six months from 24 Feb to today’s date. Therefore £6m a year, so at £300 a pop times 20k that’s the season ticket money taken care off.

    Any other costs over and above the cost of running the 1st team are needing to be met by sponsorship, merchandise,pay as you go etc.

    Non payment of the ‘Facilities’ must be a sign T’Rangers are running on fumes.


  52. Is 31,000 the lowest league crowd in TRFC’s history? If so, they’ve had it in only their second home game in the highest level they’ve ever played at. That, to me, seems a strange phenomenon, though I doubt their supporters will see it the way I’ve written, pointing to years gone by when a poor Rangers side were attracting crowds of under 10,000 in what was then Scotland’s top division.

    What we know as the truth of TRFC’s history, none of their supporters is ever going to admit to, which would make Saturday’s crowd truly phenomenal, unless, the fact is that, deep inside, there is the knowledge that this is not the club they would like it to be, for regardless of results, the club is almost universally believed to be on it’s last legs and desperate for every penny, every bum on seat, that it can muster. So what do some 7-10,000 supporters do, they stay away. I can’t believe that such a proportion of supporters, of any team, stay away in such numbers, regardless of the club’s politics, if they see the club as the club they’ve been dedicated to for the whole of their lives.

    Of course, they perhaps believe, now, that a club cannot die, that this incarnation will continue regardless of their actions, but would you take the risk? Would you trust those now in charge not to just close everything down just to make a few more bob, however unlikely this scenario might be? Or would you do everything within your power, ie turn up and buy a ticket, to ensure your club lives on until that dreamed of white knight comes along?

    I have to admit, when I read in previous seasons, people on here and elsewhere saying that the crowd would be negatively affected by real competition, I couldn’t see it happening to any great extent. I expected, even after a few poor results, that they’d still be desperate to show to the world (Celtic supporters) that they would forever ‘follow, follow’. A close to 20% drop, after just two games and one defeat, shows, I reckon, a lack of belief in something once sacred, and not just a desire to see a change in ownership.

    Alternatively, they might just be expecting the club to go bust and don’t want to be there in the death throws!


  53. Castofthousands says:
    August 24, 2014 at 8:57 pm

    “As before, 0.1 (1 in 10) is the rough average concerning red cards.”
    ————————–
    I made an error with this statement. The contents of the table are fine but 0.1 was the figure when considering home and away games separately as I had in previous tables. In this instance home and away games have been combined into one table so the average red cards will be 0.2 in this particular case.


  54. Danish Pastry says:
    August 25, 2014 at 11:18 am

    “Make that three blogs from Phil in quick succession:”
    ——————————-
    Phil practically has a seat on the board. There is obviously a propaganda war underway (no change there) and although not complicit, Phil does appear to be a convenient conduit. I hope he will not take it unkindly if I compare him to an effluent pipe since all the bad stuff seems to be flowing through him. Not sure if this is a tactic to get the information out there without it being given any real credence (who is going to believe an “Irish blogger tarred with the sickening brush of sectarianism”), except perhaps by the more inquisitive of the blue fraternity.

    It has overtones of Charlotte in the way that potentially damaging information is made public; almost as if the clumpany is being made toxic to ward off the predators.

    You can’t blame the fans for losing heart in the club. They have been given ample cause. We have been chastising them for years concerning their ‘we are the sheeple’ tendencies. They are the only ones that can decide on their club’s future. Everyone else seems to have had a go at crashing the bus so there can be no legitimate indignation over the supporters adopting the same tactic. Whether it is apathy or bravery that is the motivating factor will never be known.


  55. Danish Pastry says:
    August 25, 2014 at 11:18 am

    Make that three blogs from Phil in quick succession:

    http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-insolvency-challenge-at-ibrox/#comment-67202
    =================================
    PMacG implies that Charles Green is continuing to receive monies from TRFC/RIFC [?].

    Maybe I just missed the details previously.

    It had been suggested that he set up contracts – ‘onerous contracts’ ? – but has anything specific been identified ?

    IIRC, there has been mention of e.g. security services, or even copyright ownership/royalties ?

    Or does he have some sort of ‘non-performing’ service contract from which he receives payments ?

    For what would Green be getting paid ?


  56. Allyjambo says:
    August 23, 2014 at 12:09 pm
    38 0 i
    Rate This

    ecobhoy says:
    August 23, 2014 at 11:56 am

    Ah well Richard Wilson’s fairly benign observations on Rangers financial position has removed him from the blue pantheon of SMSM poster boys and instantly cast him as yet another Rangers Hater on the Darkside. His fall from grace is attributed his now taking the BBC shilling
    ________________________

    Talk about heads in the sand. I wrote earlier that I though RW’s piece didn’t go the whole hog with reality so he didn’t get labelled a ‘Celtic Blogger’, and despite the fact they are ‘already well aware of the points he makes’ they label him a ‘Rangers Hater’. So, even while acknowledging he speaks the truth, a reporter becomes an enemy just because that truth is unpalatable. No hope, at least for a large section of their support.

    ________________________________________________

    Almost makes you wonder why these hacks bother holding back if they are going to get the time for the “crime” anyway….


  57. Phil in his latest revelations has indicated that the Sevco 5088 contingent liability is still prescient. The change of address of Sevco 5088 to Field Fisher Waterhouse premises earlier in the year had lead me to speculate that Whyte was no longer pursuing his claim, for reasons unknown.

    Might it be possible that one of the onerous contracts concerns the new disposition of Sevco 5088?


  58. StevieBC says:
    August 25, 2014 at 1:25 pm

    Stevie

    Nothing has been identified specifically but everything points to him having something to gain by hanging around and popping up now and again.
    Guys like Green can’t help themselves.

    At the very least he might get a wee cut of Imran’s potential out of court settlement by threatening to appear on behalf of his little chum as the court date gets closer.

    That’s just another potential £620k that needs to be kept under the mattress but somehow I don’t think they have any rainy day money!


  59. StevieBC says:
    August 25, 2014 at 1:25 pm
    7 0 Rate This

    PMacG implies that Charles Green is continuing to receive monies from TRFC/RIFC [?].

    Maybe I just missed the details previously …
    ————

    Weren’t there a lot of satellite companies set up at about the time of Charles’ takeover?

    However these contracts have been put in place they must be in with the woodwork if Graham Wallace had such difficulty finding them. Money going out must show up in the accounts, though, but what as? French lessons?


  60. One thing Phil mentioned in his recent blogs was that a player’s signing on fee hasn’t been paid yet and that various club employees still hadn’t received their summer bonuses. Not sure if that includes players.
    Are there not pretty stringent rules about these things if they’re contractual, or do the Rules stipulate sanctions for standard wages only?


  61. Allyjambo says:
    August 25, 2014 at 11:53 am. A close to 20% drop, after just two games and one defeat, shows, I reckon, a lack of belief in something once sacred, and not just a desire to see a change in ownership.
    —————————————————————-
    It’ll take a good few games before the effect of the ST boycott (or lack of enthusiasm for the product) can be properly measured and you may well be right in thinking that there’s been a disconnect between supporters and club that may not wholly due to ownership issues.

    I’d just like to add that giving up a fan having given up a season ticket is unlikely to walk up too many times during the course of a season.
    I don’t know the price structure at Ibrox but in my own case over the years I’ve found that if I go to 10 games or more I’d have been as well buying an ST! – I wonder if the UOF factored in this disincentive when they came up with the boycott?

    Another thought that’s occurred is that a large number of Rangers fans travel from outside Glasgow with supporters clubs – has the ill feeling generated by the boycott amongst Rangers fans put ex season ticket holders off going as their shift to not having an ST might be a cause for some ‘debate’ on these buses?


  62. parttimearab says:
    August 25, 2014 at 7:31 pm

    I’m sure you are right that there will be a fair few different reasons for not going to Ibrox amongst those once so ‘loyal’; but so many, so soon, seems, to me, to indicate a drop off in that ‘loyalty’. Imagine, if you can, a scenario where a CVA had been agreed, leaving no doubt that they were the same Rangers, but the same people had got control and we were now witnessing the same melt down, with, for whatever reason, the club finding itself ‘demoted’ to the bottom tier. Remember that they’ve marched up the league without any problems losing no league matches last season, and have only lost to the club they might well have seen as a real threat to their continued progress. I think, in that situation, the majority of the stay-away fans would have turned up on Saturday, secure in the knowledge they were watching the ‘real’ Rangers. Football supporters love their team fanatically, and, in that respect, TRFC/Rangers supporters are no different. 7,000+ supporters just don’t drop out after one league defeat, in over a year, just because they hate the board (they demonstrate when that’s the case) and some would-be sugar daddy has encouraged them to boycott STs (though not to boycott the matches themselves) before disappearing. In fact, they’ve shown a remarkable loyalty to someone who isn’t there!

    It just seems an incredible drop and we will perhaps see an increase at the next home game, but I really can’t imagine this huge reduction in the support could have happened without some kind of ‘disconnect’, even if it’s not acknowledged within the psyche of the individual supporters. Any belief that requires a date to put on the back of a shirt isn’t that strong a belief, and is set to collapse when the going gets tough(er).

    If they truly believe it is the same club, they will return. To me, it is inconceivable that they will stay away, unless that belief isn’t strong enough.

    PS hope no one thinks I’m bringing up the OC/NC debate, it’s just that I really am bemused by this drop in support, and genuinely think there is some ‘disconnect’ between these stay-away supporters and the club.


  63. parttimearab says:
    August 25, 2014 at 7:31 pm

    Yes, I agree. One of the reasons people buy season tickets is to save a few quid. It usually equates to one or two games a season.

    As most people know attending football is a habit. When the habit is broken, and it becomes an effort to attend, other things take its place and other ways are found for the cash and the time.

    This is one of the many issues I have with summer football. Summer is when most people go away for at least two weeks and they would miss at least one game. This, in my opinion, would reduce the amount of season tickets sold for clubs up and down the country.
    It could also mean people making the choice between a holiday and a season ticket.

    Anyway back to the current issues around Ibrox. Fans not showing up is a real issue. The cost base remains the same whether 40k show up or not. Police will have to still cover the whole stadium as will internal security. If this is the start of a new trend then it is another drain on resources.
    The walk up fans would have been counted on to pay part of the loans but this will not be the case if attendances remain as they are.

    This is the slippery slope and momentum and gravity are taking this only one way. It is a financial sink hole that eats everything near it.


  64. Speaking to several Ibrox season ticket holding friends over the summer, the prevailing view was a sense of fatigue – hard to get too enthusiastic about a very poor team playing against lower league opposition, in a crumbling stadium. A far cry from the ‘glory days’ – and a growing sense of there being a long, long way to go before they come back (if ever).

    The poor quality of product is possibly contributing along with the realisation (for some at least) that the old co is no more and they are no longer in the hands of ‘Rangers Men’.


  65. Zilch says:
    August 25, 2014 at 8:59 pm

    Good point, I do wonder if, underneath all the bravado, morale, even amongst the most vocal of the unpleasant section of the fans, is getting brittle. We scratch our heads at how long the basket case that is the company can go on, but, maybe we should be asking how long the fans will go on? From their perspective, its all been very traumatic, and, there is, for them at least, no end in sight.


  66. Allyjambo says:
    August 25, 2014 at 8:16 pm
    12 2 Rate This

    parttimearab says:
    August 25, 2014 at 7:31 pm

    I’m sure you are right that there will be a fair few different reasons for not going to Ibrox amongst those once so ‘loyal’; but so many, so soon, seems, to me, to indicate a drop off in that ‘loyalty’. Imagine, if you can, a scenario where a CVA had been agreed, leaving no doubt that they were the same Rangers, but the same people had got control and we were now witnessing the same melt down, with, for whatever reason, the club finding itself ‘demoted’ to the bottom tier. Remember that they’ve marched up the league without any problems losing no league matches last season, and have only lost to the club they might well have seen as a real threat to their continued progress. I think, in that situation, the majority of the stay-away fans would have turned up on Saturday, secure in the knowledge they were watching the ‘real’ Rangers. Football supporters love their team fanatically, and, in that respect, TRFC/Rangers supporters are no different. 7,000+ supporters just don’t drop out after one league defeat, in over a year, just because they hate the board (they demonstrate when that’s the case) and some would-be sugar daddy has encouraged them to boycott STs (though not to boycott the matches themselves) before disappearing. In fact, they’ve shown a remarkable loyalty to someone who isn’t there!

    It just seems an incredible drop and we will perhaps see an increase at the next home game, but I really can’t imagine this huge reduction in the support could have happened without some kind of ‘disconnect’, even if it’s not acknowledged within the psyche of the individual supporters. Any belief that requires a date to put on the back of a shirt isn’t that strong a belief, and is set to collapse when the going gets tough(er).

    If they truly believe it is the same club, they will return. To me, it is inconceivable that they will stay away, unless that belief isn’t strong enough.

    PS hope no one thinks I’m bringing up the OC/NC debate, it’s just that I really am bemused by this drop in support, and genuinely think there is some ‘disconnect’ between these stay-away supporters and the club.
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Actually
    The one factor cementing belief in the resurrection is that TRFC is not too far away from fielding a team worth watching
    All that`s needed is a sugar daddy followed by the acquisition of a decent squad
    Puncture this pipe dream and the whole deck of cards will collapse


  67. Just thinking aloud.

    Since attendances are manipulable between ST’s sold (plus walk ups) and actual bums on seats from the gate counters, is it possible that they’ve realised declaring the lower figure is less ‘onerous.’

    Remember Charlie’s line in the sand.

    Oh and Goosy goosy, re puncturing the balloon. When Sevco had their excellent cup run last year I wonder how many of the board actually knew whether to laugh or cry!


  68. Allyjambo says:
    August 26, 2014 at 9:38 am

    If so it ain’t working even the most loyal of the bears are saying it’s cos he is scared of East Fife


  69. Allyjambo says:
    August 26, 2014 at 9:38 am
    ‘..Talk about any excuse for a ‘positive’ story for the TRFC supporters benefit. ‘
    ——–
    Is Lindsay Herron the most sycophantic football hack in the history of the Scottish Press, or is that dishonour still Chick’s to claim? -Discuss, with reference to his latest non-piece.
    Will no one rid us of these excrescences on the face of ‘journalism’ and give us all a break?

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