A consortium led by David Low has been in talks with Sir Tom Farmer seeking to purchase Hibernian Football Club. The story has been embargoed for a few weeks, but David agreed to speak to TSFM to give us an exclusive interview and provide us with information about his intentions for the Edinburgh club.
Highlights of the interview include the similarities and differences between the Hibs situation and the one he found at Celtic Pak in 1994; how Scottish Football’s “new level playing field” as Low calls it has created an opportunity for a club like Hibs to be the main challenger to Celtic for honours; the contrast of his consortium’s approach to that of the recent debacle at Ibrox; the role of the fans at every level of the club; the future of Allan Stubbs and Leanne Dempster; and the journey back to the Premiership.
Low is frank about his reputation as a well-known Celtic fan, but highlights his Hibbee credentials and his affection for the club, eschewing the “I was always a Hibbee” line taken by so many people seeking to ingratiate themselves with the locals at various clubs.
Certainly, the experience and finance rolling around Low’s consortium is something that any club could do with, but the fans are crucial to their involvement and interest.
He says he won’t go ahead with the purchase unless the fans are behind them.
“Fans have never been so powerful as they are today, especially with the advent of social media like TSFM”
“We have seen in recent years what a body of fans are capable of when they re together”
“We want to have that togetherness at Hibs, because the only way forward is to have trust between the boardroom and the fans, you only have to look at the levels of distrust between board and fans at Rangers to see that it is a recipe for disaster”
John Clark says:
August 26, 2014 at 10:22 am
Is Lindsay Herron the most sycophantic football hack in the history of the Scottish Press, or is that dishonour still Chick’s to claim?
===========================
Lindsay Herron has worked for Rangers in the past and may even still do some media work for them from time to time. It is no secret how much of a Rangers fan he is, just like his Father, Allan Herron, who was also a Journalist.
I am afraid we still have some way to go until the Scottish Sports media ceases to be a safe refuge for those who want to espouse the most biased nonsense surrounding Rangers under the protective cover of media outlets that claim to be neutral.
Jonn Clark
Lindsay Herron is the ex-Rangers TV (that works any way you read it) person who was the ‘interviewer’ when Mr McCoust made his staged ‘I demand to know who are these people are’ dog whistle remark.
Both he and McCoist were fully aware of both who ‘these people’ were and the inevitable consequences of their little pantomime.
This is the calibre of person who so easily finds work in the Scottish Sports media.
Kilgore Trout says:
August 26, 2014 at 10:56 am
34 0 i
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Jonn Clark
Lindsay Herron is the ex-Rangers TV (that works any way you read it) person who was the ‘interviewer’ when Mr McCoust made his staged ‘I demand to know who are these people are’ dog whistle remark.
Both he and McCoist were fully aware of both who ‘these people’ were and the inevitable consequences of their little pantomime.
___________________________________________________
Was that not Jim Traynor, or I am I thinking of another rabble rousing Rangers TV propaganda interview? There have been a few.
MoreCelticParanoia says:
August 26, 2014 at 12:59 pm
___________________________________________________
Was that not Jim Traynor, or I am I thinking of another rabble rousing Rangers TV propaganda interview? There have been a few.
————————————————————-
I think you’re thinking of a much later Rangers TV episode where McCoist gave a contrite Traynor a dressing down for publishing the dead club story at the time of liquidation.
Apparently Traynor was mistaken.
Edit: Possibly this one but I really don’t want to watch it to find out.
http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/4382-video-traynor-interviews-mccoist
When to Walk Away
It seems the chances of a soft landing for The Rangers business model are diminishing by the day. Without the emergence of a very tardy billionaire bear, the numbers simply do not compute – by a very large margin.
If I were one of Charlie’s initial investors and the holder of onerous contracts, I’d now be very nicely in the black on this relatively small project, I might be humming to myself: You gotta know when to holdem, know when to foldem, know when to walk away etc.
Remember we are very experienced at this game. We know that a company burdened with onerous contracts can only last so long and is doomed to fail under the unbearable weight. So the question is how and when to step off the gravy train. Liquidation is the ideal method: fast and final, case closed, cash banked, media frenzy, recriminations fly, the hired hands face the music while I slip away unnoticed into folklore: name unknown, face unknown, like some football Keyser Söze. Perfect.
Some of you might have noticed that Eibar played their first ever match in La Liga at the weekend, beating last seasons Champions League qualifiers and fellow Basques Real Sociadad 1-0.
If you look at the BBC web sports site, football section under “La Liga” you will see a short clip taken outside the ground before the kick off.
A few supporters are sporting “see you jimmy hats” and the camera zooms into to a large mural on the outside wall of one of the stands which has both the Basque flag and the Saltire and the legend Scotland the Brave.
Does anyone have a definitive reason why the Scottish link. I havent come across any answer on the web….people suggesting they were founded by a Scotsman(not true) and loads of other stabs in the dark…nothing definitive.
Anyone?
Crawford
Never known the Sunday Post to steer me wrong 😀
http://www.sundaypost.com/sport/football/spanish-minnows-bank-on-fans-scottish-spirit-1.410596
mcfc says:
August 26, 2014 at 1:30 pm
Assuming thee contracts are everything they are purported to be, the beneficiaries must be very sure of their legal basis, or, very sure of their non-extradition status, or quite possibly both?
A second liquidation so fast on the heels of the first is bound to generate additional scrutiny?
After all, to lose one company is unfortunate, losing two starts to look careless.
scapaflow says:
August 26, 2014 at 1:55 pm
A second liquidation so fast on the heels of the first is bound to generate additional scrutiny?
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Exactly so – but we’ve seen how weak and ineffectual company and business law are in the face of smart, experienced, determined chancers. I’d put their risk of being brought to justice as very low indeed – almost negligible given the rewards.
I think that’s kind of the point though. Big ‘ans has quite brilliantly and inextricably shackled the emotional tie to a direct and onerous reimbursement to him. He must have seen that Rangers will never die banner and thought “Dancer”. It must have seemed like being Pablo Escobar in charge of the rehab clinic!
upthehoops says:
August 26, 2014 at 2:53 pm
It’s a point of view. I shall add it to my Project Fear scrapbook
upthehoops says:
August 26, 2014 at 3:07 pm
On the other hand, the Westminster Rangers Supporters Club is stuffed full of Labour, Tory & Lib Dem MPs and Lords. Not an SNP or Plaid member in sight.
Seriously, politicians from all parties made complete asses of themselves over Rangers, grubbing for votes is what politicians do. Be as well complaining about Bears crapping in the woods.
upthehoops says:
August 26, 2014 at 3:17 pm
He was wrong to do so, but, I’m convinced any other FM we have had would have done the same.
Whatever the result of the referendum, the sub-culture that underpins the “establishment” club is already an anachronism, well on its way to becoming a historical footnote
upthehoops says:
August 26, 2014 at 4:05 pm
20, maybe even 10 years ago, I would have agreed with you, but the times they are a changin’
upthehoops says:
August 26, 2014 at 4:21 pm
Enjpy the game, I shall be on edge of my seat at home, no ticket 😥
upthehoops says:
August 26, 2014 at 4:21 pm
============================================
I’m no expert on the subtleties of the Scottish establishment, but the fact that they relied on mystery spivs to “rescue” the fabric of society, suggests a definite weakness of will and or capability. Unless of course you are suggesting that Blue Pitch and Margarita are not unknown foreign gentlemen turning a fast buck, but Rangers Men with a grand plan hiding behind tax havens.
Over the last 100 year’s nearly all the major companies withdrew from frontline sales to reinvest in their products and survival was the name of the game and most if not all came back with a better product they speculated and came out the other end, the club from the south side of GLasgow should have taken this route but I fear it is a little late
Up The Hoops
One of the points about Salmond ‘ s intervention to try and rescue Rangers was how out of touch he was with the feelings of football supporters (and so voters) at large and how much his judgement leaned towards short term commercial considerations and ignored the long term ones caused by damage to sporting integrity.
For a guy I rated as the best of a bad lot his standing has fallen to make him indistinguishable from the rest
Then there is the OBB. Folk who can up with that as a solution to a deep rooted problem worry me.
Like making Ogilvie President of Scotland.
upthehoops says:
August 26, 2014 at 4:21 pm
9 1 Rate This
…Anyway mate, enjoyed the chat but off now to get ready for the game tonight – supporters bus leaves in 1 hour. Take care!
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Good luck tonight Hoops, hope Celtic can do Scotland proud. I’ll be in situ in front of the box!
Cannot quite believe what Kenny Dalglish has just said in a prematch interview. Basically that Celtic need ‘Rangers’ back in Premier League!!!!!! Or did I imagine it 😯
jean7brodie says:
August 26, 2014 at 7:40 pm
4 6 Rate This
Cannot quite believe what Kenny Dalglish has just said in a prematch interview. Basically that Celtic need ‘Rangers’ back in Premier League!!!!!! Or did I imagine it
—————————————–
Watching that tonight he’s probably not the only one that thinks that!!
Bill1903 says:
August 26, 2014 at 9:41 pm
3 5 Rate This
———
Sad thing is, most of the teams who’ve gone through in the CL tonight will probably not survive the groups. It’s an elite clique, and becoming more elite with each passing season.
You feel a bit sad, though, that it wasn’t a Stevie May or Ryan Gauld coming on for the Scottish Champions.
Onwards and upwards.
jean7brodie says:
August 26, 2014 at 7:40 pm
4 6 Rate This
Cannot quite believe what Kenny Dalglish has just said in a prematch interview. Basically that Celtic need ‘Rangers’ back in Premier League!!!!!! Or did I imagine it?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
While the eventual promotion of TRFC to the SPL may reduce the margin by which Celtic win the league there is little chance it will stop them getting to 10 or even 20 league titles.
Without a sugar Daddy to buy them out the Spiv stranglehold on TRFC could go on for decades Even worse any attempt to live within their means will most likely reduce the quality of the team
The real issue is this
The death and liquidation of RFC has fundamentally changed the attitude of the Celtic board and ushered in a period of complacency
They now know that parity with Celtic in the SPL was funded by RFC in a manner that is unlikely to return They are confident Celtic will continue to dominate Scottish football irrespective of what happens to TRFC
Indeed they have become so complacent they are actively reducing their cost base at the expense of quality on the park
Had RFC not died the board would have been forced to maintain or even increase the quality of the squad simply to win the SPL never mind perform in Europe
This risk taking is epitomised in the recruitment of a Manager whose prime talent is alleged to be developing players and selling them on
Such a philosophy may be conducive to making a regular profit and dominating the Scottish game but it is not the the ethos that will retain the loyalty of many ST holders
The new Manager`s inexperience has already lead to several embarrassing performances in Europe
So
Celtic may have taken their fans for granted once too often
They are no longer satisfied with the domestic scene and rightly want to be measured on the European stage On that yardstick rock bottom was reached tonight
If the Celtic Board are only interested in the domestic scene they should step aside and make way for people with higher aspirations
Commiserations to Celtic. Not an entirely surprising result but disappointing nevertheless.
This has been coming for a while. The pond of Scottish football has been getting smaller and smaller as all its resources go into making Celtic (and previously Rangers) competitive in Europe. Having Sevco back in the top flight will make no difference. Four (or three) games against a blood and thunder team won’t help against the technically skilled teams challenging for a CL place and will reduce the new found sense of challenge that Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, St Johnstone, ICT, Motherwell etc pose in a league without a probable thumping every 5 games.
The only way back is to find a way to expand that pond again. Make every match in Scotland a challenge and make the league a proper competition for all teams. It’ll take time, but it took 30 years to bring it to its current ruinous state. There is no quick fix.
To any Celtic fans thinking the club directors didn’t back the team enough financially or in any other way to reach the CL, or who believe they are adopting a model that sets their sights only on domestic success…
Read ANY page of ANY blog on this website. You’ll almost certainly find a detailed explanation of what happens to clubs who spend money they don’t have chasing the CL dream. It’s possible you even wrote it yourself.
jean7brodie says:
August 26, 2014 at 7:40 pm
‘.. Basically that Celtic need ‘Rangers’ back in Premier League!!!!!! Or did I imagine it :shock:..’
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If wee Strachan said that, he’s less of the innocent fool than I thought,and more of a calculating man playing to the gallery.And his opinion is of no great worth.
It seems to me that those who bleat about the need for TRFC in the top flight are forgetting that TRFC are NOT the same as RFC(IL).
RFC (IL) cheated and lied its way to spending millions that it did not have, and cheated and lied its way to a false ‘sporting success’, with the assistance of those who signally failed in their duty to root out such cheating and lying.
TRFC seem to be struggling to borrow a couple of quid to pay people’s wages.
The knight of the realm was able to spend like a crazed lottery winner, with the compliant backing of the bank.Until even the bank saw how fundamentally flawed his hubristic spend spend spend nonsense was.
The present RIFC plc board unquestionably share the hubristic, cheating mindset-but simply could not risk the same kind of tax-dodge, cheating way to buy football success.
TRFC in the top division will struggle for years, and will provide no more ‘competition’ than the other teams in the division, and probably even less than the other teams in that division.
OOPS. Mine of 1.52 am. Sorry, Jean7! You mentioned Dalglish. I was thinking Strachan, because I think he said something similar, or was reported as having said something similar.
Same difference!Neither of them has any more savvy in this particular matter than you or I.
John Clark says:
August 27, 2014 at 1:52 am
5 1 Rate This
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KD is probably speaking from the heart about his childhood heroes.
Funny how the rest of Scottish football, outside of the ‘big two’ — which is now the ‘big one’ — are viewed a bit like the helpless bairns in a messy divorce. The profligate gambler has wasted everything and been kicked out of the family home; the other part, who’s done no wrong, is trying to find their feet and make it as a single again.
Thankfully, the bairns appear not to be following the example of the bankrupt gambler anymore, and are now not dependent in any way. They’re growing up, and the gambler looks to have moved into The Great Eastern.
You will excuse a wise old diddy a wee smile when the fans of the club who brought on a £3m player from Ajax bemoan the fact that they couldn’t take on Gauld or May.
Aye, if only…
PTD 100% spot on. Any ideas how we do it, bearing in mind the Gaulds and Mays of this world are going to move elsewhere to money in any case until such time as we do “fix it.”
And to be clear I wish to fix it in the tradesman sense, not the Campbell Ogilvie meaning!
Danish, you have mail.
At last! 😉
Danish,
Sorry read that back and my May/Gauld point (which I see came from you originally) sounds a bit triumphalistic – in fact as smug as, well a smug thing.
My point was more that whilst it would have been nice for celtic to bring on the cream of Scottish talent (and even nicer had they made any difference 😈 ) it would have been nicer yet, that is to say it would have contributed more to PTD’s challenge, if they’d felt able to stay where they were in the first place.
Smugas says:
August 27, 2014 at 9:19 am
0 0 Rate This
Sorry read that back and my May/Gauld point (which I see came from you originally) sounds a bit triumphalistic – in fact as smug as, well a smug thing.
My point was more that whilst it would have been nice for celtic to bring on the cream of Scottish talent (and even nicer had they made any difference ) it would have been nicer yet, that is to say it would have contributed more to PTD’s challenge, if they’d felt able to stay where they were in the first place.
———-
I didn’t see a problem with what you wrote. It’s a fair point. Ideally, the best upcoming players would stay put and first move when they become established ‘stars’.
I suppose in one sense it goes back to whoever turned down Sky in favour of Setanta all those years ago! Until the bright lights (or is that ‘house of cards’?) fade (or collapse, as the case may be) then the talent drain will continue.
Nothing wrang wae a wee diddy smile either, it’s there I see the fitba reality I used to know 😉
Completely off topic but I see the draw for the 3rd round of the League Cup is staged today, whilst there is still an outstanding tie to be played in round 2 – TRFC v ICT.
I may be mistaken, but the winners of this tie are to be seeded in the draw. Thus TRFC will once again be potentially protected from drawing the likes of Aberdeen, Celtic or Dundee Utd at an early stage in the competition.
Round 3 has always been a seeded draw based on finishing league position in the previous season, therefore should TRFC win the tie, nearly every other club in the draw should be seeded above them.
Yet more blatant favouritism shown to a club playing out of Govan.
rougvielovesthejungle says:
August 27, 2014 at 10:08 am
==============================================
ICT’ll be terrified:
Pos. Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD Pts
1 Inverness CT 4 1 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 4 0 5 10
In the last five years three of our ‘biggest’ teams have been knocked out of Europe by a team formed in 1960 with a 13k capacity stadium in a town of 115k in a country with a population of 2 million.
Last nights Maribor had 8 homegrown starters and both subs that took to the field were homegrown as well.
As a whole Scottish Football should be looking at a higher strike rate than 0-3.
Re the comments on Gauld, May etc leaving Scottish football, I have a different perspective. I would prefer to see Gauld and Robertson leaving Scotland when the alternative would be to have to watch them perform against United because our opponents can afford far higher salaries.
It is also an avenue available to lessen the current massive financial inequality between Celtic and the rest of the Scottish Premiership when a club like United can sell a couple of players for maybe around £6m and progress to the point where debt is paid off (apparently we are about there) and the money can start to be invested in either infrastructure and / or the playing squad. The challenge for United is to continue to produce that new talent.
Although for sure arabs were sorry to see two such quality players leave, I think there is also an acceptance that ultimately every player has a sale price (just as with virtually every club everywhere) and that if part of what you offer to potential recruits is the chance to shine and get offered big career opportunities, you cannot then turn around and say actually sorry but we’ve changed our minds, so see out your contract and hope that at the end of it you still get the chance to earn many times what you do now.
wottpi says:
August 27, 2014 at 12:08 pm
Spot on. The status quo-anti that the Football Authorities, and many former players hanker after didn’t work. That they want to return to the failed, but cosy, two team model, demonstrates very clearly their unfitness for the positions they hold.
Scottish Football needs to find the guts to admit that the current model isn’t working, and then find the humility to go out and learn from those places where things are working.
Scottish Football needs leaders with a strong vision
Before anyone starts suggesting Celtic should be spending some of their ‘transfers in’ money (Hooper, Ki, Wanyama, Forster etc) on signings of a similar calibre so that they can compete in the CL, I think they should remember that the last Scottish club to be put out by Maribor was liquidated as a result of that defeat.
I spent last night watching the game in the company of a Celtic and a Rangers fan.
Both clever guys, both wanted Celtic to win.
But they both spouted nonsense about how they need each other and how it will be better for both when real competition returns and gets them both fit for Europe.
I said this much to them and its relevant to any Celtic or Rangers fans who think the European Glory days are some kind of birthright which awaits them both.
The world has changed.
Scotland has been squeezed out of the European tournaments by the 4 or 5 big countries and their big, big clubs and they won’t give up their places at the top table easily – its worth too much money and TV audiences are all that matters.
(As an aside – I don’t remember a fuss being made on our behalf at the time by our various world-class administrators in Scotland and in UEFA about the present CL formula – a situation that damages so many countries and I’m not aware of a fuss being made now either, but I could be wrong on both counts.)
Anyway back to my two pals last night.
I basically said –
If you strip emotion away and face real hard economic facts.
If Celtic don’t get out of Scotland they will continue to win the SPL for a good while to come but it is managing a decline.
If Rangers survive and want to be “big” (and they have enough fans to be big in Scotland again one day) they will have to get a business model like Celtic have but they will have to leave too.
Scotland is wee.
Scottish teams are wee in Europe in 2014 and will be wee into the future.
Wee teams from wee countries with wee leagues won’t ever be giants in Europe and won’t ever win.
They are not needed and they are not really wanted either.
It is nothing to do with Celtic and Rangers.
It is just an unfriendly new world for wee countries and their teams.
Smugas
Danish
How to make Scottish football more competitive? That is a huge challenge, but there are some easy fixes that will help.
1. The SFA need to grow a pair. The attitude of the SFA re youth development and tapping up players is risible. In the last couple if years the SFA received a report outlining how to take youth development forward. It has largely embraced most of the recommendations in the report, but the larger clubs are not being brought into line when they say “Stuff you, we’ll do what we want with our youth development system.” As a result, it’s a pointless gesture and will come to nothing. By larger clubs I don’t just mean Rangers and Celtic, most top tier sides regard the SFA setup as a moveable feast for varying reasons. Some clubs see it as a source of money in tight times, others have no club policy and so youth strategy changes every time a new manager comes in and then managers themselves in Scotland may or may not see youth development as part of their remit.
The Scottish game might not be flush with money, but the way the bigger clubs are run has not really kept pace with commercialisation. Managers shroud themselves in a professional mystique, which hides the fact that many don’t really know what they’re doing and actually do little more than pick 11 players a week and have a brief discussion with the coaches about tactics. Most of their job (McCoist is a prime example) is talking to the media. Others, like Craig Levein work long hours 5 days a week or more and integrate their coaching staff with the scouting network and youth squads at all ages and try to instill a genuine strategic vision into a club. This is something like what the SFA want to promote, but they have no sticks available to force change and they won’t use carrots because over the last 15-20 years, that would have penalised Celtic and Rangers more than anyone else. Finally, football in Scotland is still the kind of place where if a manager knows that an old player he’s mates with is down in his luck, he’ll give him a job. Probably coaching a youth level team. Lots of coaching roles are filled by old players without the brains or (more likely) PR savvy to manage, but also without the drive to move on from a now gone football carreer. As a result, I would go as far as to say that the majority of youth team coaches don’t actually have a clue what they’re doing. They need a job and they know football, but like many managers, they receive no training about how to actually do their job. Without a proactive club manager monitoring that part of the club, youth players just don’t develop as they should. They’ll probably do fitness work and then play once or twice a week, but the coach is just repeating what he did as a youth because he knows no better. The technical practice and the on and off field positional and tactical work is not there. Either as a whole team, or in units (working with the players surrounding your position).
The SFA actually recommend a set number of hours with ball at feet a week, but the investment required to do that is prohibitive to clubs with arcane setups and who would need massive coaching investment. It’s easier to ignore the SFA guidelines and buy developed youth from other clubs where possible.
The second SFA issue is around tapping up. This isn’t just a Celtic Rangers issue, but the players they sign who mysteriously request transfers are higher profile. Most if not all clubs on the top two divisions are probably close to the ethical borderline on this. It is sometimes not the worst thing because a bargain buy for a top tier club can still represent a huge cash injection into a lower tier club. When it happens between clubs competing in the same division, it is anti-competitive though and it usually results in a transfer for less than market value. The SFA need to prevent this and be harsh in their preventative measures in order to try to enforce a more level financial playing field.
Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting the big clubs are deliberately tapping all the time despite the existing rules. It does happen in some cases but it’s now like driving above 70mph. Almost everyone who can does to some degree.
Both the above ideas meet around the idea of youth player compensation. The current levels of compensation mean the vast majority of players don’t pay for themselves. A UEFA or even FIFA interdict specifying that 10% of any transfer fee a player commands goes to the club(s) that developed him would seriously help enhance everyone’s youth development system.
Back to reality, many fans may decry Celtic’s current policy of positioning themselves as a selling club to the EPL, but it is smart in that they then get access to money from teams they are not in competition with. That is Celtic’s current financial reality if they want to afford wages of CL calibre (or thereabouts) players. It also sets up the possibility of their own home developed players being spotted and signed by bigger (financially) clubs. They are therefore the only club in Scotland exempt from the danger of being economically subjugated. Rangers have also avoided this in a sense by paying players more than the clubs who play at the next few levels above them, bit just division-wise but in terms of quality. They also escape the danger of economic subjugation, but only because they pre-emptively damaged themselves.
My final point would be about the SFA intervening to make TV coverage less advantageous to Celtic and Rangers/Sevco. I doubt there is a mechanism to do this though. The SPL are keen to perpetuate the bias for reasons that may or may not revolve around executive bonuses and there seems to be no appetite for a debate about it on this website despite nobody ever disagreeing that it is clearly unfair. So I’ll let it go.
I doubt the SFA would ever consider changes like those above. Mostly because the biggest impact would be on the biggest clubs. The irony is that such an impact is what we need. It won’t stop Celtic dominating. It won’t prevent Sevco or the next version of Rangers clawing their way to a regular top 2 position eventually, but the gap would close. It would make life harder on a weekly basis and would make European games less of a step up. It would also close the gap on countries who value technical skill above speed and size. Coincidentally, the countries that traditionally outperform other similar sized countries in the rankings.
Ryan Gauld is probably lucky he got the coaches he did. In many clubs he might even have been released as a youth for being too wee. I still think if Messi or Iniesta had been Scottish, they might not even be pro footballers. Their size would make them unpalatable to most youth scouts. A boy I know got into the Rangers and Hearts youth set up. He played for a boys club and was good enough to be playing under 14when he was 11. Not a big age gap, but despite being one of the better players in his team, the Rangers scout discounted him until the boy’s dad pointed out he was 2 years younger than everyone else. His size would have meant he was overlooked. This was 10 years ago. Rangers youth scouts had no real oversight and did bad jobs for the same reasons their youth coaches did. No research, they just rocked up to a game and looked for a reasonably talented tall strong guy.
This has gone from 3 quick points to 3 long rants, to one long ramble. I would appreciate if any one else has ideas about how what else can be done to make the game better in Scotland though.
Ding Ding seconds out Round 4
HMRC have been granted leave to appeal
scapaflow says: August 27, 2014 at 2:52 pm
Ding Ding seconds out Round 4
HMRC have been granted leave to appeal
===========================
Anyone know when the reconvened FTTT will sit to rubber stamp the Murray family trusts (under direction from the UTTT) and the termination payments (including Campbell Ogilvie’s and Billy Dodds’)?
alex thomson @alextomo 7m
HMRC press office on Rangers tax case: “We are pleased that the Upper Tribunal has given HMRC leave to appeal to the Court of Session…”
alex thomson @alextomo 7m
“We continue to believe that schemes using Employee Benefit Trusts to avoid income tax and NICs do not work”‘
ptd1978 says:
August 27, 2014 at 2:33 pm
One long ramble but I like it.
ptd1978 says:
August 27, 2014 at 2:33 pm
A bit of “subbing” and there is a showcase post here which should generate a useful debate
Auldheid says:
August 26, 2014 at 5:24 pm
What intervention did the First Minister make to save Rangers?
He made a bland statement which said that he Rangers, before they died, were part of the fabric of society. Which was nothing more than a statement of facts. Are Liverpool, Manchester Untitled or even celtic not part of the fabric of society?
He said that he hoped that HMRC wouldn’t take action that resulted in the death of Rangers and the potential loss of hundreds of jobs if they didn’t have to.
He said that we all know that celtic and rangers need each other, not that Scotish football needs them, but that the OF need each other. That’s been proven to be true for a over a century.
The fact is that certain [] labour MPS’s have spread their lies about the evil Salmond trying to save rangers as a political trick to get celtic suporters to vote No.
The facts are clear and you should be ashamed to participate in such an odious campaign of lies.
Hooray for Maribor. Beat hibs, rangers and celtic in Europe,while competing in a genuinely mickey Mouse league in a country less than 1/2 the size of Scotland.
Celtic blow £20,000,000 and move a step closer to joining their OF brothers []. That is a result and a half.
ptd1978 says:
August 27, 2014 at 2:33 pm
lot of good stuff in there. the stuff about youth coaching is what i’ve been saying for years.
It is unfortunate that the SFA show neither the appetite nor strategic vision required to make fundamental changes.
PeeGee70 says:
August 27, 2014 at 3:43 pm
Really?! How many pairs of blinkers are you wearing?
Where was the FM when Gretna, Livingston etc had financial problems? Presumably you think they were just not big enough a part of the fabric of society to deserve any intervention from him. We don’t know if he would have done the same for any other big club, though his lack of supportive comment re Hibs and Hearts may tell its own story.
You also seem to think that it’s okay for him to suggest HMRC don’t try too hard to recover the unpaid tax for the benefit of the public purse – for the sake of the few jobs or for the sake of Rangers? Surely you must see that it’s more important for the FM to reinforce the importance of chasing tax revenue than a few jobs or a football club?
Finally re your point about the OF (deceased) needing each other, you may yet be proved right given Celtic’s perceived support for their entry to the league system, but most people on here agree that duopoly has served only to corrupt the sport and have no desire to see the OF (deceased) continue in the future. Just because that duopoly was part of history, there is no need to use such a failed model in the future.
PeeGee70 says:
August 27, 2014 at 3:43 pm
Are Liverpool, Manchester Untitled or even celtic not part of the fabric of society?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No they aren’t, and your post is the first time I’ve ever seen it suggested that they are. Leeds, for example, were a big club, they went down the pan, but no politicians came forward with any “fabric of society” nonsense- because everyone, the fans included, knew very well that they were just a football club.
Salmond was criticised on this forum by me (among others) at the time, and I am a lifelong supporter of Scottish independence. So the idea that criticism of Salmond is confined to some cabal of Labour MPs is simply wrong. Salmond, normally an astute and surefooted politician, screwed up big time.
ptd1978 says:
August 27, 2014 at 2:33 pm
28 0 Rate This
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Great post. Nice idea with the 10% of transfer fees. Heaven knows there’s more than enough money swilling around, making the rich richer, that could finance that.
Nice post ptd.
I think the thing most damaging to Scottish and other ‘small’ country football clubs is UEFA. They have chased the TV money to such an extent that they have essentially destroyed the game in many small countries in Europe. I would be looking to forge an alliance with several select countries and extract the entire shebang from UEFA clutches; ALL the teams in each of the countries. No longer enter the lop-sided UEFA competitions, set up inter-country leagues and competitions, have some sort of pyramid from the national leagues to the continental league; maybe a play off system between the national winner and the existing continental member. Yes, UEFA and the other national associations would not allow you to play their teams but if you get enough countries there would be plenty of teams to play.
neepheid says:
August 27, 2014 at 6:17 pm
Salmond was criticised on this forum by me (among others) at the time, and I am a lifelong supporter of Scottish independence. So the idea that criticism of Salmond is confined to some cabal of Labour MPs is simply wrong. Salmond, normally an astute and surefooted politician, screwed up big time.
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Glad you make the point it’s not an anti SNP thing Neepheid. I have witnessed FOI responses confirming Salmond was in contact with HMRC over Rangers. The Scottish Government refused to release all the details as it may prejudice relationships between Holyrood and Westminster.
nawlite says:
August 27, 2014 at 6:07 pm
‘…..most people on here agree that duopoly has served only to corrupt the sport and have no desire to see the OF (deceased) continue in the future.’
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On which point, are former Celtic players paid for opening their gobs (like Pat Bonner did on Sportsound half an hour ago ) to haver on about the desirability of an early cup tie v TRFC?
Have they no pride, that they should think of having to play them as anything other than demeaning, or that they should lend any credence whatsoever to theconstantly pushed ( shoved down our throats, more like)assertion that TRFC are a legitimate club?
Under the present dispensation, Celtic may be REQUIRED to play TRFC- they may have to do what is required, but they ought not express any satisfaction or delight at the prospect, and tell their players and ex-players to button their lips.
Celtic are already in their supporters’ bad books: endorsing the actions of the Football Authorities who dodged the issue with CG will make them no additional friends.
In my opinion.
And I have withdrawn by goodwill towards Mr Bonner: he does not speak for me in his desire to pretend that there is still an OF.
For most of us HMRC remain an ancillary to government annexation of our wages. We influence them only in as much as we influence the government of the day. That is to say, not very much.
We can argue all day about what our taxes are spent on, approving of one thing or raising our hands in abject horror at another.
Whatever we think of it, it’s hard to find a useful argument against collective fundraising and spending. Only in policy do we find discontent and debate.
Every time I look at my wage slip I see the deduction we know as PAYE, it’s a mechanism by which I pay my taxes more or less at the same time as I get paid for my efforts in work.
I’m not happy with this arrangement, it irks me. If truth be told I’d rather have all the money at my disposal. I fancy that I would make worthy contributions to the wider community and to the state of my own free will.
This naturally is fanciful nonsense; if I had access to my gross pay I’d spend it all on me and mine. There may be a charitable contribution here or there but nothing on a scale of me multiplied by millions similarly empowered that would pay for the education or health care of the nation’s children.
At the risk of undermining my own argument, those submarines that occasionally rest in our sea lochs presumably switching the nuclear button to snooze for the duration don’t pay for themselves.
With HMRC pursuing Rangers (oldco) to the CoS for unpaid taxes we will hear the usual arguments about extraordinary treatment.
Businesses unlike individuals don’t pay tax at source, it could never be otherwise.
There is space to wriggle in their tax affairs, opportunities to keep control of monies not available to the individual.
A telling quote in the Daily Record sums up the HMRC view.
“Around 700 users of EBT schemes have already settled with us resulting in around £800m of tax and NICs being paid. We expect more to settle in the near future.
“These are avoidance schemes and we will continue to tackle those who do not pay up. It is not right that a small minority can avoid paying what they owe while the vast majority pay the right tax on their earnings. This case represents an important principle.
There really is nothing extraordinary about the Rangers tax case.
BDO are dealing with the liquidation and will have a decent idea of how much money they are likely to bring in, for example from their case against Collyer Bristow which may be up to £25m as I understand it. They will also know if they are likely to be able to collect money from other sources, for example the people behind the company being placed into administration and then liquidation (ongoing).
HMRC are likely to be well aware of those amounts and whether not not there will actually be money available for them to get their share of a payout. They are also likely to know of any further actions BDO intend taking.
The current debt to them is around £21m and could increase if they eventually win their appeals against the operation of the EBTs.
There is a long way to go with this side of the story, potentially including people losing personal funds and even facing criminal charges.
John Clark says:
August 27, 2014 at 7:45 pm
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When the 2 clubs do finally meet and Celtic stick (at least) 6 goals past a very poor team with an even poorer manager, do you think that the average Celtic season ticket holder will see this as an easy victory over a brand new club that they have never played before, from a lower division, or will they see it as bitter blow to an old rival, which should be celebrated long into the night?
The Glen says:
August 27, 2014 at 10:50 pm
0 1 Rate This
John Clark says:
August 27, 2014 at 7:45 pm
—————-
When the 2 clubs do finally meet and Celtic stick (at least) 6 goals past a very poor team with an even poorer manager, do you think that the average Celtic season ticket holder will see this as an easy victory over a brand new club that they have never played before, from a lower division, or will they see it as bitter blow to an old rival, which should be celebrated long into the night?
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At the risk of being banished to the Bonkers OC/NC thread, it is irrelevant what fans of either side think. Rangers were liquidated. Charles bought the assets. Sevco tried and failed to acquire Rangers SPL share…then tried and failed to join SFL1…and so on and so forth (tier).
The Glen says:
August 27, 2014 at 10:50 pm
John Clark says:
August 27, 2014 at 7:45 pm
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…do you think that the average Celtic season ticket holder will see this as an easy victory over a brand new club…or will they see it as bitter blow to an old rival… ?
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I’m guessing there will be no confusion at all – absolutely.
For perhaps the entire 90 minutes – plus injury time – the Celtic fans could be singing rather loudly;
“You’re not Rangers anymore !”
And this might be repeated at every other SPL away game for TRFC.
[Assuming they get promoted of course.]
PG 70 @ 3.43
I think you have missed my point which is not his support of Rangers by leaning on HMRC but thinking the football supporters at large thought as he did in terms of the commercial value lost to the Scottish football industry.
That was a misjudgement of their mood and their understanding the importance integrity plays in keeping the industry alive.
I know having a politician who puts ethics and integrity above money belongs to my personal Brigadoon village, populated by flying pigs, but Salmond, whom I would have as Prime Minister of the UK as by comparison he is a giant amongst pygmies, fell short of the ideals that I think should be part of the fabric of society.
That Labour MPs in their pots want to call the kettle black only reinforces my cynical view of the whole circus.
Independence is an illusion. It’s just another way of dividing up the resources cake after agreement is reached how much of the cake goes north and how much south.
Amicable separations can become bitter divorces when the cake gets cut, even if it seemed a good idea to cut it beforehand.
beanos 4:43
The SFA have tried at various times to get clubs to improve their youth development programmes and remain keen to do so. They select people like Andy Roxburghe and Craig Brown to work on excellence development boards to try and add pressure to the clubs.
The problem is they can’t use a stick to make it happen. The existence of the SPL and the Bosman ruling make that very difficult. Similarly the carrots are limited because they haven’t got enough to offer. Imagine either Celtic or Rangers diverting money for a genuine, all levels youth development programme with trained coaches, integrated with first team coaching aims and meeting all SFA guidelines.
That’s at least the cost of wages for a top level player and if the opposition just goes for the player, that could be the difference in the league that year. What can the SFA offer that will persuade a team to make that investment? It’s the same story at all levels. This is the clubs’ fault not the SFA’s
PeeGee70 says:
August 27, 2014 at 3:43 pm
“Celtic blow £20,000,000 and move a step closer to joining their OF brothers []. That is a result and a half.”
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Very contentious but fair comment. It was mentioned that Maribor had 8 home grown players in their squad so maybe there is a lesson to be learned. If Deila has been brought in to nurture new talent then perhaps there will be a flowering of home grown players. Scotland has always been a selling ‘club’. Mr Dalglish himself was sold into England at the height of his career and at a time when there was relative equanimity across the border financially. It was only a brief period following the European ban on English clubs, which coincided with the early part of the Murray era, that saw any real attempt to buy and retain talent. The talent retained wasn’t Scottish by and large.
The old firm myth was employed, as European football grew richer, in an attempt to bridge the widening European gap. In the end it sucked the lifeblood out of the other teams and still failed to keep the big clubs truly BIG. So maybe we just have to accept that the world has changed. When it comes to European and global football finance, Scotland is a diddy ‘club’.
European and global football finance is outwith our control so despite its obvious flaws there will likely be a very near limit to what can be done to affect this.
As for the game itself, perhaps the diddy nations could be a proving ground for innovative playing strategies. The big nations can’t risk altering a winning formula speculatively given the financial risks involved, so perhaps there is an opening there for a creative nation with a long pedigree in the sport?
One of my favourite bands had a very experimental phase before they made it ‘big’. Eventually they adopted a more orthodox compositional style but even then the influence of their earlier experimentation shone through and gave them a real uniqueness. I found some of their early ‘music’ a bit embarrassing as it often didn’t have a discernible rhythm or structure and sometimes wasn’t played using conventional instruments. Up to a point they wiped the slate clean and groped around for what seemed to work for them; even when as I say the product was sometimes a bit weird.
Where this ties in with football is that it is logical to employ methods that have been proven successful in the past. However because of the recognisable success of these methods there is usually an accompanying counter tactic that renders it useless. The only tactics that are likely to be successful are those that are unexpected.
Charles Martell was arguably the greatest general that ever lived. His success was based on his habit of never fighting the same strategy twice. The only thing his opponent could expect was the unexpected.
Now football teams will of course employ methods that are tried and tested; competent coaches, recognisable tactics etc. However there is a danger that this formulaic approach merely results in more of the same. Remember one of the most successful managers on the planet started his career as an interpreter for Bobby Robson when he was at Barcelona.
Heading the ball into the ground in front of goal used to be an error until it was realised that the keeper found it very difficult to follow the flight of the ball. A sclaff often eludes the keeper whereas a cleanly hit strike follows a predictable path. Such intentional accidents are one way a whole new set of skills might be employed. Rugby is forever coming up with new ways to break the line; all lifted direct from the training ground.
So if kids could experiment more. They didn’t have to win. They played shooty in with the objective of employing the most elegant or surprising finish, rather than keeping count of goals scored. If innovation was valued as much as effectiveness, perhaps we could make new ways of playing football. It is only a game after all and should have a significant element of enjoyment.
Castofthousands says:
August 27, 2014 at 11:44 pm
‘…European and global football finance is outwith our control so despite its obvious flaws there will likely be a very near limit to what can be done to affect this..’
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CoT, I think the main thrust of your post is very telling, as a statement of what has actually been allowed to happen.
But I don’t entirely share your that view that the pan-European ‘football spectator/fan/ supporter is powerless.
There is a growing realisation, Europe- wide, that the ‘wealth’ of ‘successful’ clubs absolutely depends on the the fact that there are other clubs in their domestic divisions against whom they have to compete.Without domestic league structures, there can be no league champions! And no Champions’ League.
UEFA has, I think, begun to acknowledge this pretty self-evident fact by taking steps to try to to prevent the kind of financial cheating indulged in by clubs which do not pay their social taxes, or their players’ wages or bonuses,or delay paying their transfer debts etc etc.in order to gain sporting advantage by buying talent that they otherwise could not afford.
I think we have to keep in mind that the Scottish situation is not unique to Scotland. The supporters, the very life-blood of the game, of all the many clubs who make up the European leagues, are as anxious as we are to ensure that the ‘wealth’ generated by the sport is spread around equitably and reflects the fact that there would be no wealth at all if the sport were to die because the clubs that are the very heart of the sport are denied a proportionate share of the wealth that is created only because they exist, and go out of business!
The ‘big boys’ in European football will, sooner rather than later, have to have their prize monies divvied up to reflect more accurately the fact that they can only win European prizes if they play, and beat, their domestic competitors.
UEFA will win, eventually.Or else football as anything other than a soulless ‘TV game’ will die.
The Glen says:
August 27, 2014 at 10:50 pm
‘..When the 2 clubs do finally meet and Celtic stick (at least) 6 goals past a very poor team with an even poorer manager,.’
Lord Wobbly says:
August 27, 2014 at 11:11 pm
‘.it is irrelevant what fans of either side think. Rangers were liquidated. Charles bought the assets. Sevco tried and failed to acquire Rangers SPL share…then tried and failed to join SFL1…and so on and so forth (tier)’
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The Glen, I am afraid I have to side with my Lord Wobbly. In the ( perhaps, on current form, questionable) event that the present Celtic team were to beat TRFC in a competitive match,I would imagine that it would mean no more and no less than beating any other team.
I say this in the sure and certain knowledge that TRFC are not RFC of old. A view very widely held by every club in the senior game in Scotland.TRFC are not the Rangers of old. End of story.
That ‘old Rangers’ ( which once upon a time had men of at least business integrity and honour in charge) has died. It is no more. Like the Monty Python parrot. It is not there any longer as a competitor. The old ways are gone.
Film-wise, I recall ‘The Odessa File”.
Sorry Auldheid, much as I admire your work with regards to football governance in Scotland I can only reproach you when you move into the realm of political science.
“Independence is an illusion”. That’s a big statement.
The citizens of the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, for example, would probably beg to differ.
Economic forces are global in their reach but a nation state can help determine how those forces impact on society.
You may view an “independent” Scotland as an illusion but it would have “real” consequences.
For instance, I can assure you that the Trident nuclear base 20 miles from my house is not “illusory”.
Interesting tweet last night from Eddie Goldtop (remember him?). I wonder if the club he sponsors will insist on a ‘within these four walls’ stance.
Re the Rangers tax case and HMRC being given leave to appeal. Am I the only one thinking that in 18 months time we will be reading about an appeal to the House of Lords? Also, what would be the effect of an Independent Scotland regarding HMRC being able to take this case further, i.e out of Scotland?
John Clark says:
August 28, 2014 at 1:30 am
4 0 Rate This
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There is, though, the constant, unspoken ‘threat’ of a breakaway league being formed by the big boys, who would bank even more cash for themselves. Must be a nightmare scenario at UEFA. Greed never sleeps 😆
The TV companies probably wouldn’t give a second thought to whether is was under UEFA or anyone else. They want big crowds, TV audiences, product placement, advertising revenues — and that would take the current spectacle of overpaid, tattooed, bizarrely coiffured football mercenaries to a whole new level.
Personally, with Scottish participation ended, I’ve little to no interest in the monotony of CL group stages (from a British perspective), perhaps with the exception of Arsenal and Wenger, who still seem to represent a decent approach to the game.
I think in time football fans will need to decide what it is they want.
Is it megarich celebrity football played out by the same teams who occupy the CL monopoly and indeed the richest 3 leagues or do we still value our own football?
And which do we value more?
Because thats where we are headed, you can watch Premiership and CL football OR watch Scottish Football but if you continue to watch (and therefore fund) both then one of the two is going to die sooner than you think.
Fans of football in smaller countries need to stop watching and funding CL, EPL, La Liga Football if they value their own teams and national football at all.
Or just forget about Celtic, Aberdeen, Rangers, Motherwell and everyone else altogether.
One last thought: when Scottish Football fans complain about how weak Scottish Football has become and their clubs inability to compete in Europe or to develop decent young players for the team, do they ever question what share of the responsibility THEY (the fans themselves) have to take – how much foreign football starring glitzy, celebrity teams do these same fans watch?
I assume Mr Cosgrove has given the heads up to BBC’s Sportsound producers to keep an eye on our blog as a means of keeping their finger on the pulse.
Given the recent chat of bias at the BBC those same producers no doubt went out of their way to ensure they had a Celtic man through and through on the panel to discuss the newsworthy topic of Celtic failing to qualify for the CL and where they go from here.
Unfortunately it appears that even when steps are taken to ensure balance, some folks appear still not to be happy because their man wasn’t on message re T’Rangers.
I am now wondering who exactly should the BBC approach to put forward on future shows to adequately represent those on the east side of Glasgow.
nawlite says:
August 27, 2014 at 1:41 pm
Before anyone starts suggesting Celtic should be spending some of their ‘transfers in’ money (Hooper, Ki, Wanyama, Forster etc) on signings of a similar calibre so that they can compete in the CL, I think they should remember that the last Scottish club to be put out by Maribor was liquidated as a result of that defeat.
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Rangers were not liquidated because they got beaten in one game by Maribor, Rangers were liquidated after 20 odd years of mismanagement, cheating and manipulation of the rules.
And if the financial crisis had not happened and the bank hadn’t pulled the plug on them they would still be doing it and getting away with it under the careful watch of the sfa and msm.
Matty Roth says:
August 28, 2014 at 8:53 am
How much foreign football starring glitzy, celebrity teams do these same fans watch?
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……At the expense of watching and supporting their own local teams?
For me it is a bit like the driver v cyclist argument.
Many folk assume that because a person is on a bike they know nothing of the rules of the road and care not a jot for drivers. However it is probably the case that the cyclist folk complain about has a car sitting on the driveway back at home. It can often be the case that the dodgy cyclist is probably also a poor driver and awful pedestrian.
For years we have had people turn away from their local teams to support our big two so why should we be surprised when that happens at a different level.
However my guess is that many folk who fork out their money for Scottish football also take in CL , EPL etc because they simply like football.
The issue is trying to maintain and build on the existing support by playing attractive and entertaining football at all levels by producing young local talented players. For a country our size it is really about trying to ensure the clubs are community based organisations focusing on issues like health & fitness, sporting participation etc and do more than just win the occasional game.
John Clark says:
August 28, 2014 at 2:05 am
While I agree with what you and His Lordship say, I think the Celtic supporters, should the day ever arise that they meet TRFC, would revel in victory for one reason only – the joy that is to be found in the misery of those who hate you. Rangers are dead, we all know that, but their support lingers on, attached to a new club that poorly imitates the old. Victory would not be seen as a glorious moment over a hated club, but rather as something to rub the faces of the hated remnant of an old foe in – the support, itself.
http://www.highland-news.co.uk/Sport/Football/Ross-County/Staggies-standing-plans-hinge-on-Celtic-bid-27082014.htm
A good article on the “safe standing” issue.
Sorry John Clark. I can’t agree with the second bit, and given a free reign I suspect UEFA would side with me!
“..Without domestic league structures, there can be no league champions! And no Champions’ League..”
First of all let me say that I was very disappointed (for Scottish football as a whole) that Celtic did not get through on Tuesday.
I see Jim Duffy in a “paper” this morning calling out Celtic for not signing the likes of Eto’o and Crouch to bolster their CL attempt.
Idiot. Absolute idiot.
Look how close Arsenal were to not making it through last night. Think about how much they have spent on their squad and yet how close they were to going out. Spending huge amounts does not guarantee success (although it increases your chances). Spending the kind of money Mr Duffy talks about would not sufficiently increase Celtic’s chances (over and above the chance they already had) to render qualification a near certainity. If Celtic had run into Besiktas rather than Maribor, Samuel Eto’o would not have made a blind bit of difference.
Mr Duffy belongs to a school that says spend whatever you have (and probably what you don’t have). That school needs to be closed down.
Football at that level can be a matter of luck. Maribor scored a scruffy goal. Celtic hit the bar. Celtic were not great but neither were Maribor. Had the luck gone the other way, Celtic would be through without having spent extraordinary sums to get there. The “gamble” (if indeed it was a “gamble”) would have paid off (albeit with huge assistance from the Legia issue).