A consortium led by David Low has been in talks with Sir Tom Farmer seeking to purchase Hibernian Football Club. The story has been embargoed for a few weeks, but David agreed to speak to TSFM to give us an exclusive interview and provide us with information about his intentions for the Edinburgh club.
Highlights of the interview include the similarities and differences between the Hibs situation and the one he found at Celtic Pak in 1994; how Scottish Football’s “new level playing field” as Low calls it has created an opportunity for a club like Hibs to be the main challenger to Celtic for honours; the contrast of his consortium’s approach to that of the recent debacle at Ibrox; the role of the fans at every level of the club; the future of Allan Stubbs and Leanne Dempster; and the journey back to the Premiership.
Low is frank about his reputation as a well-known Celtic fan, but highlights his Hibbee credentials and his affection for the club, eschewing the “I was always a Hibbee” line taken by so many people seeking to ingratiate themselves with the locals at various clubs.
Certainly, the experience and finance rolling around Low’s consortium is something that any club could do with, but the fans are crucial to their involvement and interest.
He says he won’t go ahead with the purchase unless the fans are behind them.
“Fans have never been so powerful as they are today, especially with the advent of social media like TSFM”
“We have seen in recent years what a body of fans are capable of when they re together”
“We want to have that togetherness at Hibs, because the only way forward is to have trust between the boardroom and the fans, you only have to look at the levels of distrust between board and fans at Rangers to see that it is a recipe for disaster”
redlichtie says:
August 15, 2014 at 11:55 pm
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Re sickofitall’s post above on AIM/RIFC’s NOMAD this is actually a tweet from Phil.
No further info from that source so far.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
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Yes I see. Bit cryptic from Phil.
@GooseyGoosey daft process in general with CAS, how can they say we CAN fast track an appeal (legal/semi legal) matters tend to take a while and not often subject to hands up if we can fast track… Doesn’t that open options for other teams in the same or similar position?? Our hands are up CAS….
Thought I’d share this, youth footie thing… Good teams at 15/16s just collapse, could win a treble the season before, next season 3 players left. It is a hard shift… mMny demands on boys that age and only the more dedicated make it thru..
That’s a real challenge for ordinary guys trying to give something back to football and keeping boys off the streets… Doesn’t help that the SFA say if you have not registered more than 7 players by a certain date no guarantee they will be registered and you forfeit matches… 7 plus 4 trialist is a team..
SFA please actually help to keep boys in football for coaches who give 10-15 hrs a week for nowt to try and keep young men in a sporting lifestyle….
Sorry if an old question but going to CAS does that not potentially hold a penalty if case beaten??? I have heard Cl/Europa expulsion… Now that would be daft and very harsh on LW imo…
JimBhoy says:
August 16, 2014 at 12:07 am
‘.. how can they say we CAN fast track an appeal..’
———–
You’re dealing here with Continental legal systems which ( thank God!) the good old Chookie Wellington stopped us becoming subject to.
The CAS page has:
“Legia requests urgent provisional measures from CAS allowing the Polish club to participate in the play-offs of the Champions League (20 & 26 August 2014).
The CAS has immediately initiated an arbitration procedure and the Respondents UEFA and Celtic FC have been invited to file written observations. A decision on request for provisional measures is likely to be issued on Monday 18 August around 18:00 (Swiss time).”
That suggests to me that CAS can,in effect, pre-judge the case by allowing ‘provisional measures’ i.e. it seems that they could let LW to play before they actually hear the appeal!
The best any UK court could do would be to order a hold on everything: the game not to take place at all until the point at issue was resolved!
A crazy legal system, to my insular little mind, perhaps, but if we signed up to abide by it….more fool we!
JC it’s just great to be speaking with you, well in textual format.. Been a strange few days in TSFM can’t mention teams but i would say a fast track is a confirmation of the original decision.Just my opinion and I am not in any way qualified..
JimBhoy says:
August 16, 2014 at 12:24 am
‘.. Doesn’t help that the SFA say if you have not registered more than 7 players by a certain date no guarantee they will be registered and you forfeit matches…’
——-
And this is what condemns the SFA: they strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
They hammer the small fry with insistence on perfect attention to all and every bloody bureaucratic detail, dis-incentifying and discouraging the very people who nurture the game; while they let perhaps the most rotten and corrupt majority shareholder ever to run a football club to break a most fundamental rule year after year with impunity and ,possibly, with complicity, for reasons best known to their corrupt selves; and THEN let some charlatan barrow-boy, with several more forked tongues than any honest injun ever saw, browbeat them into abject, cowardly, fawning submission and allow his newly created club to create and maintain an absolutely illegitimate fiction.
As our friend (sorry, EB, and where have you been recently?) Hamlet said: ‘there is something rotten in…’ ( in deference to DP, I will not finish the quote, because the rottenness is here in this little country of ours, not his adopted land!).
It is an incredible situation.
And the SMSM, mutton grease fairly dribbling down their their chins,and eschewing any kind of journalistic integrity, have been as timorous as the wee lambs whose succulent flesh they enjoyed free, gratis [but at the cost of their personal integrity]at the duplicitous hands of a knight of the realm.
That it should have come to this!
@JC they have threatened to expel teams…. leagues are competative so teams move etc wont go into detail…but some are better than others..
John Clark says:
August 16, 2014 at 12:51 am
7 4 Rate This
“Legia requests urgent provisional measures from CAS allowing the Polish club to participate in the play-offs of the Champions League (20 & 26 August 2014).
===============================================
I wonder just what their appeal basis is. UEFA appear to have stuck rigidly to a long established rule. Legia say that rule is not fair just because they won 6-1. Given that CAS have asked Celtic to comment suggests Legia may have actually made a complaint about Celtic as well – shocking if that’s the case.
Yet judging by their articles, many of the Scottish media are clinging desperately to any hope of Legia being successful. I wonder if the media in other countries would want this to happen to one of their own clubs?
JimBhoy says:
August 16, 2014 at 12:07 am
5 1 Rate This
@GooseyGoosey daft process in general with CAS, how can they say we CAN fast track an appeal (legal/semi legal) matters tend to take a while and not often subject to hands up if we can fast track… Doesn’t that open options for other teams in the same or similar position?? Our hands are up CAS….
,,,,,,,,,,,
The reality is that all the talk on the LW website including quotes from Henning Berg is about their determination to qualify for the Europa League . The only reference to the CAS is that Monday is being kept “out of their mind”
Upthehoops
Legia say that the rule is not fair just because they won they won 6-1.
******************************
I doubt that is their argument.
It is more likely to be that LW are saying that, while there may have been an administrative error in registering a player for the St Patrick’s game, they adhered to the spirit and intention of the rules relating to player suspensions by not fielding Bereszynski,a first choice player as evidenced by match appearances this and last season, for three games because they acknowledge and knew that he was banned.
They will the have probably argued that by not playing until the last four minutes in a tie they were winning 6-1 the banned player had no influence on the result of the tie and thus no sporting advantage was gained by the administrative error. Therefore in this unique situation of a 6-1 humping, the punishment does not fit the crime.
Had the situation been reversed I would guess that Celtic fans, to a man, would be urging the club to take up the position outlined above. Celtic as a club have a history of challenging football authorities rules and decisions so there is no dishonour in taking such action.
LWs pleading to Celtic was a bit tasteless but understandable given what is at stake. One also has to make an allowance for how other cultures deal with such situations.
I also fail to see what the gnashing of teeth is with regards to Celtic potentially being asked by the authorities to be involved in the process. In this latest stage the A in CAS stands for arbitration and to me it is wholly appropriate that Celtic, as a key stakeholder in this situation,are kept abreast of proceedings and be asked to comment should they so desire. If Celtic say rules are rules and they are happy to be guided by UEFA then so be it. To me keeping quiet seems the most sensible approach.
If Celtic are a well run club and have their eye on the potential for multi-millions you bet your life they are in regular contact with the authorities and have legal eagles on stand by and strategizing for all potential outcomes so they can jump in at a seconds notice.
Just imagine the Celtic fans reaction if the club was not prepared for the authorities pulling a flanker on this one.
While I wholly understand the mistrust of the SMSM, the fact that I heard Jim Delahunt say on SSB that Celtic had done nothing wrong, rules and rules, and it was up to UEFA to sort it out makes me believe most of the SMSM know the score and it is more case of lazy reporting as opposed to having a go at Celtic.
Its very quiet.
wottpi says:
August 16, 2014 at 8:59 am
The sad thing about todays media is that they all simple seem to want to cause controversy and run stories to cause problems.
The issue here is that they are not even using factual arguments to base this on. They are attempting to cause controversy when it is clear they have never even bothered to read the relevant rules. Those rules are clear and explicit.
Now if they cannot even be bothered to carry out basic research on such an issue why should anyone spend their hard earned cash buying their papers. It is almost as if the media has become a charity where we are supposed to give them money regardless of the nonsense they print. Listening to Clyde the other night was a lesson in incompetence and ignorance. When someone asked what was to stop a club winning an away leg four nil and then playing a suspended player because they could only lose that leg three nil. The pundits said there was nothing to stop a team doing this and yet the rule book, if any of them had bothered to carry out research and read the rule, states that if the other team is awarded a three nil win unless they win by a larger margin then the score is allowed to stand.
It is the media’s refusal to investigate and research issues in a competent manner which has resulted in their decline. People can get the facts online for themselves, form their own opinions and ignore the media because they are becoming more irrelevant.
This is part of the problem; the more people turn away from them the worse their circulation becomes and the more controversial the stories they print seem to be and so the spiral continues.
Their circulation will eventually be the reporter typing the story in front of a mirror while shouting the opposite at themselves.
And that is exactly what they deserve.
The Bunnet v. Minty Moonbeams
===============================
Family thoroughly enjoyed Celtic game today, although I was expecting more fight from United. [But I did like their rather fetching away kit in black though. 🙄 ]
And, like many folks, I did not particularly like McCann – in my ignorance at that time – but was pleased now to be able to show my appreciation when he unfurled the flag.
The Bunnet was everything that Minty Moonbeams was not: thank God !
Fergus saved a venerable Scottish football club whilst Minty ruined one – and their legacies in sport and business are polar opposites.
Campbellsmoney,
The calm before the storm?
I always suspected that GW would find a way of muddling through and getting TRFC back into the premiership without going bust.
But, the Stockbridge share option seems to have spooked people and any possible sources of funding are apparently long gone.
Together with the season ticket strike I suspect they are very close to trading insolvently.
We are only a couple of poor results away from seeing the walk-up sales plunge in all likelihood.
What the upshot will be, the property play with TRFC sold for a £1 to a blue knight or just going out of business I don’t know.
I really think it is now 50/50 for TRFC to complete the season. If they don’t TSFM and others will be needed more than ever given the track record of the administrators.
Celtic Underground @celticrumours · 1h
Rumours that wages at ibrox are being paid by flamingo land in Yorkshire…
ecobhoy says:
August 16, 2014 at 6:56 pm
I think you have missed the point John. Celtic is not regarded as a Scottish club by the vast bulk of the SMSM
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Do you seriously believe that???
I’ve had a great day today but as this isn’t a Celtic blog I will make no comment on today’s match.
However it was great to see wee Fergus – remember his roots – by turning-up at Kilsyth Cemetery for the graveside commemoration of Jimmy Quinn – the Croy Express – who played for Celtic and Scotland. It’s quite a unique place with 9 graves of Celtic players – second only to Dalbeth in numbers.
And it was a privilege to hold the very ball that was used in the 1904 Scottish Cup Final in which Jimmy scored three goals. For any unsure of the resuly I recommend google 😆
One of the funniest moments of the day was on an ordinary First Bus heading to Parkhead X when a wee Glesca wifie got on and asked the driver: ‘Dae yi go tae Parkheid?’
When he replied: ‘Well naw personally’ the bus erupted in laughter from the Tims although they were wise enough to make no further comments in case the driver went in the cream-puff and parked the bus 😆
Unconscious Glesga Humour never ever ceases to fascinate and amaze me – Long May It Flourish ❗
ecobhoy says:
August 16, 2014 at 6:56 pm
—-
ecobhoy, it was Upthehoops (at 7.43 am ) you were quoting!He was commenting on mine of 12.51
An example of sub standard journalism.
The main Sports reporter in Aberdeens evening newspaper used to be a postman who wrote up the Sunday Welfare reports on a Monday.
Aberdeen journals went on strike which eventually led to the sacking of the bulk of the journalists.
The postman/Sunday Welfare reported now finds himself as the main mouthpiece in the local paper.
He’s now been there for years and hopeless wouldn’t be too strong a word to describe the tosh he comes out with.
However I’m certain he considers Celtic a Scottish club whatever else he thinks of them.
I’m sure the Aberdeen posters on here(if there are any left) know who I’m on about 👿
I see Celtic won 6-1 today. Dundee United must have had two ineligible players on the park 😀
Nice to hear Off the Ball (both versions) today. Oddly enough, discussing a topic that has become tabu on here.
Some of the sense of perspective I have been missing was on the BBC. Who’d have thought it?
God bless Stuart & Tam, without fear or favour.
However – goodnight all as I have a wee party to go to and my better-half is making very threatening noises.
What impact does the Evening Times have on a Scotland wide basis then?
Bill1903 says: August 16, 2014 at 8:03 pm
ecobhoy says:
August 16, 2014 at 7:51 pm
1 4 Rate This
Bill1903 says:
August 16, 2014 at 7:41 pm
Sorry Bill but I really don’t class the Aberdeen evening paper as part of the SMSM.
Also if you wish to base your argument on what a strike-breaking scab’s opinion is on anything then feel free. I simply ignore people like that who are part of the problem which has led to the collapse of the SMSM in terms of journalistic integrity.
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Evening Express sell as many copies as the Evening Times and a lot more than the Edinburgh Evening news yet isn’t part of the SMSM???
===============================
The next 6 monthly report (1st half of 2014) of circulation figures for the “Regional Dailies” is due out in the next couple of weeks. Here are the last circulation figures published in February 2014, for the second half of 2013. The % figure is the year on year change.
Figures from the Press Gazette
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/uk-regional-dailies-lose-print-sales-average-14-cent-year-year
Aberdeen – Press & Journal 63,796 £0.70 -4.3%
Dundee Courier & Advertiser 50,539 £0.60 -5.1%
The Herald 38,939 £1.20 -9.8%
Aberdeen – Evening Express 35,881 £0.50 -11.9%
Glasgow – Evening Times 35,773 £0.60 -15.7%
The Scotsman 29,452 £1.20 N/A
Edinburgh – Evening News 27,655 £0.60 -14.0%
Dundee Evening Telegraph 20,421 £0.45 -4.8%
Paisley Daily Express 6,767 £0.40 -6.4%
Bill1903 says:
August 16, 2014 at 8:18 pm
What impact does the Evening Times have on a Scotland wide basis then?
=======================================
Sales of Andrex are particularly poor 🙄
The perceived lack of Scottishness of Celtic may be a jibe used to provoke their fans and supporters but I doubt it is an attitude that has any true intellectual traction. Had Celtic’s history entrained a country other than Ireland then I think the cruelty of such a jibe would not have been so sharp. However Ireland turned its back on the Union and was not unnaturally cast as a traitor for large parts of the last century.
However, we have come to a point where it may be that Scotland too decides to turn its back on the Union. This might provide an interesting test concerning the lack of Scottishness of any Scottish football club. If in an independent Scotland Rangers supporters continued to wave the Union flag in support of their team, I personally would not have a problem with that. It is part of their tradition and though they might receive jibes on the point, I doubt the ridicule would be overly cutting.
There is no team from Orkney playing in the SPFL. There is a tradition in the Orkney Islands for acknowledgement to be made of their Norwegian heritage in addition to their Scottish nationality. Indeed the Orkney flag is very similar to the Norwegian flag. Should a team from Orkney enter the SPFL, would the brandishing of the Norwegian flag by their supporters be seen as a provocation or an expression of their culture?
I think the friction is much dependent on the source. An English, British or Norwegian flag being present in a Scottish football ground may not be seen as being as controversial as an Irish one, even in an independent Scotland. This is an accident of history and geography.
easyJambo says:
The next 6 monthly report (1st half of 2014) of circulation figures for the “Regional Dailies” is due out in the next couple of weeks. Here are the last circulation figures published in February 2014, for the second half of 2013. The % figure is the year on year change.
Aberdeen – Press & Journal 63,796 £0.70 -4.3%
Dundee Courier & Advertiser 50,539 £0.60 -5.1%
The Herald 38,939 £1.20 -9.8%
Aberdeen – Evening Express 35,881 £0.50 -11.9%
Glasgow – Evening Times 35,773 £0.60 -15.7%
The Scotsman 29,452 £1.20 N/A
Edinburgh – Evening News 27,655 £0.60 -14.0%
Dundee Evening Telegraph 20,421 £0.45 -4.8%
Paisley Daily Express 6,767 £0.40 -6.4
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Wow they are dying quicker than I thought!
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/the-ups-and-downs-of-the-rangers-bloggers-civil-war-is-always-more-brutal/
Eeramacaroonbar says:
September 27, 2013 at 9:14 am
Sorry if this has been touched upon, but a guy called @StMiley on Twitter has just noted that a certain Gordon Gibb owns Flamingo Land. Interestingly he has a pension fund which owns Valley Parade (Bradford City’s home ground) which………….. he leases back to them !!!!????
Flamingo Land connection
http://rangers.co.uk/news/club-news/item/5165-flamingo-land-sponsors-dj
FLAMINGO LAND, the UK’s only combined theme park, zoo and holiday resort, is now the proud sponsor of RangersTV’s matchday commentary featuring Ibrox legend Derek Johnstone.
Barca Bear DJ has already been providing his expert analysis at recent games shown on RangersTV.tv but it has been confirmed he will continue this role with the club’s online channel throughout stage two of The Journey.
Johnstone made 547 appearances and scored 209 goals during two spells with the Light Blues and he was part of Willie Waddell’s famous side that lifted the European Cup Winners’ Cup in 1972.
Flamingo Land is delighted to sponsor RangersTV’s matchday commentary with DJ, chief executive Gordon Gibb said: “Flamingo Land Resort Yorkshire is proud to be associated with Rangers Football Club, bringing two top flight organisations together.”
easyJambo says:
August 16, 2014 at 8:44 pm
…
“Flamingo Land Resort Yorkshire is proud to be associated with Rangers Football Club, bringing two top flight organisations together.”
==========================================================
Trying to work out any ‘shared values’ between the 2 organisations…
Flamingos stand and sleep on one leg.
The Rangers club/company is on its last legs… 😆
Castofthousands says:
August 16, 2014 at 8:27 pm
2 3 Rate This
The perceived lack of Scottishness of Celtic may be a jibe used to provoke their fans and supporters but I doubt it is an attitude that has any true intellectual traction. Had Celtic’s history entrained a country other than Ireland then I think the cruelty of such a jibe would not have been so sharp. However Ireland turned its back on the Union and was not unnaturally cast as a traitor for large parts of the last century….
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Interesting post, although it might not be here tomorrow 🙂
I’m sure the Troubles have led to certain flags becoming contentious at Ibrox & Celtic Park. Had it not been for that nightmare, would anyone really bother?
What percentage Saltire-based club/fan flags at those two Glasgow clubs, though?
My family and I loved seeing this supporter recently, but how common a sight is he?
https://mobile.twitter.com/ArthurStramash/media/grid?idx=0&tid=500732578669035520
easyJambo says:
August 16, 2014 at 8:20 pm
The next 6 monthly report (1st half of 2014) of circulation figures for the “Regional Dailies” is due out in the next couple of weeks. Here are the last circulation figures published in February 2014, for the second half of 2013. The % figure is the year on year change.
Figures from the Press Gazette
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/uk-regional-dailies-lose-print-sales-average-14-cent-year-year
Aberdeen – Press & Journal 63,796 £0.70 -4.3%
Dundee Courier & Advertiser 50,539 £0.60 -5.1%
The Herald 38,939 £1.20 -9.8%
Aberdeen – Evening Express 35,881 £0.50 -11.9%
Glasgow – Evening Times 35,773 £0.60 -15.7%
The Scotsman 29,452 £1.20 N/A
Edinburgh – Evening News 27,655 £0.60 -14.0%
Dundee Evening Telegraph 20,421 £0.45 -4.8%
Paisley Daily Express 6,767 £0.40 -6.4%
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Thanks EJ. Do these figures include online subscriptions? I would assume they do.
At what point does actually having a printed version become unviable? The evening papers and the Scotsman look particularly vulnerable.
With regard to the standard of journalism at the P&J I can say from experience that it is pretty abysmal. A complete lack of anything remotely investigative and a tendency to print any PR pap that has punctuation. As the newspaper for the “Oil Capital of Europe” it repeatedly exhibits no understanding whatsoever of the industry.
Embarrassing at times to knowledgeable readers but clearly not to their churnalists.
The thing is that many actually still believe the nonsense they print. A colossal disservice to their relatively captive audience.
Scotland needs a better Press (and Journal).
Danish Pastry says:
August 16, 2014 at 9:15 pm
3 1 Rate This
Castofthousands says:
August 16, 2014 at 8:27 pm
2 3 Rate This
The perceived lack of Scottishness of Celtic may be a jibe used to provoke their fans and supporters but I doubt it is an attitude that has any true intellectual traction. Had Celtic’s history entrained a country other than Ireland then I think the cruelty of such a jibe would not have been so sharp. However Ireland turned its back on the Union and was not unnaturally cast as a traitor for large parts of the last century….
——-
Interesting post, although it might not be here tomorrow 🙂
I’m sure the Troubles have led to certain flags becoming contentious at Ibrox & Celtic Park. Had it not been for that nightmare, would anyone really bother?
What percentage Saltire-based club/fan flags at those two Glasgow clubs, though?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
There was a green and white Saltire at the Dundee Utd match in the old Green Brigade area
Every time Celtic scored they shouted “YES”
Re the SMSM
in todays paper, SFA slap Derk with dive ban.
Sfa compliance officer Vincent Lunny issued the celtic star with a notice of complaint last night.
Did vincent Lunny not quit his post as compliance officer last week? And if so how could he issue a notice of complaint last night?
I won’t print who wrote the story as it may be a wee bit of an embarrassment if lunny did quit his post last week 😕
Cluster one
Why not name and shame??? 😕 very few on here read the papers 😉
Brenda says:
August 16, 2014 at 10:12 pm
Cluster one
Why not name and shame?
————————–
Would it not get monitored ❓
Eco and TykeBhoy – whilst LW and the ins and outs comprise the current firefight, I am more interested in debating what we think the point of a declared squad should be. I understand 25 players in your group stage squad – but why 25? Last time I looked you have 11 players on the pitch at one time – and a more physically demanding game such as rugby looks to a squad size of twice the team size in international competitions. My view is that 25 is to appease the big teams and mega agents to preserve status quo – shuffle the packs and cream the transfer fees. There is also in my view an implicit falseness to allowing a player to sit out a suspension (which is supposed to also hurt the club) as number 25 on a team list in game that requires 11 players….
I believe that UEFA have confused two elements – being a desire to limit squad sizes for competition (which I agree with in principle) but then using this squad list to tick off suspensions for players not on the team list.
My own preference would be that for a suspended player to serve his suspension then he would need to be included in the team list. We might agree to increase the team list from the current 18 to, say 20 (personally I wouldn’t as it would suggest that are wiling to accommodate a degree of cheating) but I am also a realist!
If we required the suspended player to be included in the team list then this would very clearly have a more equalitarian impact across teams (eg Real Madrid would not be so seamlessly able to backfill their world class attack if Bale was suspended and had to be included on their bench when they had a doubt over the fitness of Thiago and wanted to include bench cover). I guess my point comes back to this – in a world of mega clubs, a suspension for Ronaldo is increasingly an insignificant penalty when you can replace him with Bale or Rodriguez, etc,etc. You may say it was always thus – but at least in the old days we had smaller squads, fewer subs and less concentration of wealth in the elite clubs.
Cluster One says:
August 16, 2014 at 10:00 pm
‘..Did vincent Lunny not quit his post as compliance officer last week?..’
——
There is a hand-over period, I believe:
From the BBC online report:
“8 August 2014
SFA appoint Tony McGlennan as new compliance officer
The Scottish FA has appointed Glasgow-based lawyer Tony McGlennan as its new compliance officer.
McGlennan will replace incumbent Vincent Lunny after a handover period next month. “
Danish Pastry says:
August 16, 2014 at 9:15 pm
“My family and I loved seeing this supporter recently, but how common a sight is he?”
————————-
I don’t think you will see the Scottish saltire brandished at any club match as it is not a differentiator. The supporter pictured was not in Scotland which is why the Saltire became important.
I’d postulate that if you could magically teleport a Scotland Ireland match into a partisan Parkhead, after the wonderment had worn off there would be only one side being supported. The Irish would get polite applause for their efforts but only Scottish goals would be getting cheered (excepting the Irish contingent that travel to Celtic matches). I don’t think there is any question of where Celtic supporters and fans loyalty lies, at least not amongst the Celtic fans. They are painted as disloyal because they celebrate an uncomfortable tradition.
There is much effort expended to ensure that individuals inhabit their anticipated pigeon holes but human beings are not naturally so regimentally inclined.
Rangers supporters will vote for Scottish independence and Celtic supporters will vote to maintain the union and both will note each others hypocrisy. The commercialisation of football in many ways has been a cause of this polarisation. Supporters only relatively recently took to wearing their team shirts to matches. This branding and differentiation is part of a marketing exercise. As you point out there is an unfortunate and recent backdrop to the Old Firm rivalry that has been fed upon to fuel the economy. This may be rubbing salt into wounds that should be healing by now. No-one however should have to apologise for their heritage.
Castofthousands says:
August 16, 2014 at 8:27 pm
‘.. However Ireland turned its back on the Union and was not unnaturally cast as a traitor for large parts of the last century..’
——-
I think in the interests of historical objectivity, it is important to say that , unlike the union between Scotland and England ( which, by all accounts, was freely and deliberately entered into by each party) the ‘union’ with Ireland was union by military occupation, followed by the gradual, but deliberate attempt to suppress the Irish language and culture.
It is a moot point whether the fact that this happened eight and a half centuries ago rather than in more recent times should allow us to call people ‘traitors’, any more than we can call the, at various times in history, militarily occupied peoples of Australia, Africa etc etc etc.’traitors’.
The peoples of the United States , or what was the Belgian Congo, or Basutoland, or German east Africa, or Angola, or Mozambique, or Algeria and so on and on would take a dim view of being labelled ( as they were so labelled at the various times) ‘traitors’
Some would argue that Ireland did not so much turn its back on the ‘union’ as to simply assert its sovereignty. In the circumstances of the time, it could only do that by force of arms ( as the people of America had to do in their time).
Happily, those here in Scotland who wish to end the political union with England/Wales/ and Northern Ireland do not need to resort to those means.The ballot box, with unrigged elections, is there for their use, as the agreed arbiter.
Thankfully.
Castofthousands says:
August 17, 2014 at 12:25 am
————————————
This branding and differentiation is part of a marketing exercise.
———————————————————————
Good post and a big point, worth repetition and a moment’s thought in itself, in the context of Scottish football in the 21st. century.
The new paranoia stuff about the Scottish Press is really scraping the bottom of the intellectual barrel.
In a week where we have been able to obtain some kind of credibility for the blog we are now witnessing its hijacking by issues which do us no credit and are quite definitely more appropriate to Celtic forums.
There is no evidentiary basis for institutional anti-Celtic bias, either in the media or within the infrastructure of the game. For the avoidance of confusion, evidence of bias in favour of RFC/TRFC, which we have discussed at some length over the last couple of years does not automatically imply anti-Celtic bias – unless of course you subscribe to the theory that the only thing that matters is the Old Firm.
I’ve let some of the more hysterical stuff with regard to Legia go unchecked over the past couple of days, despite the sinking feeling I got seeing the endless attention being given to barely relevant minutiae. I did that for the sake of the wider argument, but it has opened the door to this latest unfortunate development.
Please no more of that. Any further rants will be removed along with subsequent posting rights. The mods have a life too and they are fed up constantly having to remove substandard material.
Unfortunately, my reading of the majority of active posters over this last week or so suggests an attempt to hijack the agenda.
A very good basis for discussion (the interview with David Low), was almost completely ignored as people posted fictitious stuff about Sheriff’s Officers at Ibrox and literally thousands of copy and paste jobs on UEFA regulations whilst foregoing the substantive underlying issues.
If people want this use this blog as another outlet for Celtic chat and gossip then they need to get a reality check.
Here is the litmus test. If you are even slightly offended by the tone of what I have said, you really should be posting somewhere else. There are plenty of fans of Celtic and other clubs who will still be around, saying their piece, and giving space to others with different opinions.
Apologies to the majority of readers who take care to assist in building the credibility of the blog. Our intention is to take back ownership of TSFM for you.
TSFM says:
August 17, 2014 at 1:12 am
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I would hotly contest your view about there being no evidence of anti-Celtic bias in the media, but will accept your guidance and leave it at that. As for anyone being even remotely offended at what you said, if anyone is then they must have led a rather sheltered life!
IN November this year, some of Scotland’s top journalists will gather in Edinburgh for a conference on investigative journalism.
http://www.baueracademy.co.uk/courses/investigative-journalism/
Wonder if Keef J bought a ticket.
John Clark says:
August 16, 2014 at 11:52 pm
Cluster One says:
August 16, 2014 at 10:00 pm
‘..Did vincent Lunny not quit his post as compliance officer last week?..
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McGlennan will replace incumbent Vincent Lunny after a handover period next month. “
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Thanks for making it clear 😳
Castofthousands says:
August 17, 2014 at 12:25 am
9 1 Rate This
I don’t think you will see the Scottish saltire brandished at any club match as it is not a differentiator. The supporter pictured was not in Scotland which is why the Saltire became important …
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I think we’re at the risk of going down another discussion cul de sac that will see posts deleted en masse. And I won’t complain if they are, including this.
Suffice to say, while the old bogitry should have been dismantled and people’s attitudes dragged into the 21st century, the association of certain flags to the Troubles became ‘loaded’. There’s no escaping that. Benign national symbols were hijacked. They began to be paraded at fitba from political motives.
I only posted the photo we took in Hamburg because, for someone like myself — an East End Glaswegian with no known Emerald Isle heritage — it was nice to see the Scottish Champions and a display of about 4 Saltires throughout the ground (my family pointed them out). Of course, there were loads of the other flags. That doesn’t, and has never bothered me, although perhaps used to leave me feeling like an outsider, or like someone with ‘the wrong heritage’.
Being pro-Scottish is not synonymous with being anti-Irish, btw!
Any historic ‘bias’ against east end clubs could also have been because they were traditionally supported by the poor, living in the toxic, industrialized areas (ah, got a bit of David Low in 🙂 ), Britain’s multi-layered class system used to be much more rife with disdain for the poor than it is now. Add to that, the poor having slightly un-Scottishy or un-Englishy names and you got racism added to the mix. And then there was the religion of many of the poor — that did not come with the royal seal of approval. Lots of factors.
For what it’s worth, I imagine a club like Celtic will fit neatly into an indy Scotland, probably more so than it does in a ‘British’ Scotland.
And in the event of that happening, perhaps the adopted country will finally become more important than the one of historical heritage?
PS On another topic, glad to see TSFM take the chapter-and-verse-quoting-minutiae bull by the horns.
upthehoops says:
August 17, 2014 at 6:20 am
Castofthousands says:
August 17, 2014 at 12:25 am
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In terms of fans of this club and that and their independence vote preference I was angered yesterday at Celtic Park that a group of people were trying to hijack the game to have a display of ‘Yes’ banners. The stewards were removing them wherever they could and also on entry to the ground if visible. People are entitled to their veiws of course, but to attempt to portray the Celtic support as massively pro-Yes is extremely misguided in my view. I really hope football does not enter people’s decision making in this very important matter.
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Personally I would agree with you to a large extent but we are then left with issues like the support for Palestinians and Gaza or Even Israel in another stadium. Wrt Gaza it can be argued that this is acceptable on simple humanitarian grounds but there are intertwining political stands and political activists in the mix as well.
So I think it’s a difficult area in that if we accept shows of support for an independent Gaza being allowed the right of self-determination and free access to the rest of the world then why shouldn’t Scots be allowed the same? Btw I’m a ‘NO’ voter but I strongly accept the rights of others to make their point as well although I would never dream of inflicting my views on anyone watching a game.
Returning to chapter and verse 😛 UEFA obviously have rules prohibiting polical demos and penalties which are imposed and indeed Celtic have fallen foul ot their ire on this one. I haven’t checked SFA or SPFL Rules but I’m sure there is similar sanctions.
Personally I am opposed, in general, to political demonstrations within football stadia but that doesn’t stop anyone leafletting or displaying posters in public outwith the ground perimeter.
Where I sit there was a small sprinkling of ‘YES’ cards displayed which were met by boos and a number of fans shouting various things mainly around the theme that they were there to watch a football match and not politics.
helpmaboab says:
August 17, 2014 at 7:17 am
IN November this year, some of Scotland’s top journalists will gather in Edinburgh for a conference on investigative journalism.
http://www.baueracademy.co.uk/courses/investigative-journalism/
Wonder if Keef J bought a ticket.
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I would have thought ‘Keef’ might have been one of the guest speakers to explain how not to be an investigative journo but still win oodles of Press Awards courtesy of PR spinners.
His approach has the added advantage that you don’t need to place yourself in any real danger by actually nailing the badyins and serving society and humanity for an inner calling beyond largely meaningless buggins-turn awards.
helpmaboab says:
August 17, 2014 at 7:17 am
“IN November this year, some of Scotland’s top journalists will gather in Edinburgh for a conference on investigative journalism.”
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But, I hear myself say in unfeigned astonishment, what could possibly be the connection between Scotland’s ‘top’ journalists and ‘investigative journalism’?
And I see that one of the purposes of the ‘conference’ is to raise money ‘to fund a freelance investigative project’.
I think we all can guess what that project will NOT relate to!
Ecobhoy
Unfortunately keef is on a winter break at the time ,in ehhh, Edinburgh
wokingcelt says:
August 16, 2014 at 10:21 pm
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I think you raise a number of interesting issues and I have to confess that I have no detailed knowledge as to how maximum List A squad numbers were arrived at by UEFA. One thing I think worth remembering is that of the 25 allowed players that two must be goalkeepers and any long-term injured goalkeeper can be replaced at any time.
So in actuality we are dealing with a maximum squad of 23 for all other positions. Someone has already dealt with the difference in World Cup squad sizes and those of UEFA competitions which seemed sensible in view of the fairly protracted UEFA competitions leaving players liable to injury not only in the competition but in ordinary domestic matches as well.
I agree with the argument that suspended players ‘clearing’ their bans should be on the match sheet as that would be a penalty against the club having to pick from 17 rather than 24. Indeed I wrongly thought that was the case until another poster corrected my error.
One issue I think you might have missed is the List B ‘youth players’ which has no restriction on numbers. I accept that most teams would try not to field a relatively inexperiences youth player in UEFA ties although there are exceptions.
However going back to your comments about the richer clubs IMO there’s every chance that their ‘youth’ players might be of a higher standard than many of the List A players in financially ‘poorer’ clubs.
Was intrigued about your linking of squad sizes to the enrichment of agents and clubs through transfer fees but as I don’t have any expertise in that area I can’t really comment although perhaps others might have an informed opinion.
I’m afraid I could not resist the impulse. I have sent this to the Bauer Academy:
” To hello@bauermedia.co.uk
Today at 11:05 AM
Dear Bauer Academy,
I am writing to share with you the great hilarity and mirth occasioned us by the following sentence:
“IN November this year, some of Scotland’s top journalists will gather in Edinburgh for a conference on investigative journalism.”
In the experience of many of us -whose judgment is based on daily observation of the journalistic output of Scottish newspapers- our journalists scarcely know what the term ‘investigative journalism’ means, and will have little to contribute to the conference.
Our ‘top’ Scottish journalists have ignored, or tried to ignore, or have been too blind to see, the possibility that there may be ( and in the view of many, probably is) a significant story of corruption and skullduggery in the financial collapse and death of a well-known Scottish football club: a collapse which triggered off political intervention at the highest level, and which may involve possible chicanery on the part of court-appointed Administrators, conspiracy to defraud Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and attempts to mislead and fraudulently manipulate the stock market; as well as fundamental incompetence, if not downright complicity in wrong-doing,on the part of a sports association which, however indirectly, is in receipt of public monies.
I do not aver that any of the above has actually happened.
I do state with absolute conviction that there were, and are, plentiful grounds to justify an ‘investigative’ approach to the ‘story’.
None has been attempted.
Instead,the Scottish ‘main-stream media’ ( and I include BBC Radio Scotland) have merely served as communication channels for all of the principal actors involved, with absolutely nothing in the way of trying to establish fact and truth from the self-serving PR spin of the protagonists in the story.
Our ‘journalists’ appear to be afraid to ask any of the kind of challenging questions that are simply begging to be asked. Worse than that, they ‘champion’ the alleged ‘baddies’!
Let’s hope that If any of them do attend your conference, they learn something-even if it is only to feel shame when they listen to real journalists.
Yours sincerely,
John Clarke.
PS. If you are to provide meals for those attending, a favourite dish of many of our Scottish journos is lamb, the more succulent the better. Tell the Chef to have it available in abundance. And with some luck, the wine waiter may obtain from a knight of the realm, some of the wine that they were accustomed to relish with the lamb.If they run true to form, they will swallow uncritically every word you say!
Smugas says:
August 15, 2014 at 9:51 am
7 0 Rate This
Apologies if I missed it.
Did we get clarification if Lows offer to repay Hibs debt was convert it to new equity, or simply replacing repayable debt with Lloyds (or whoever) with repayable debt from a Low derivative, a bit like Wavetower with Wyte?
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The information given to TSFM , based on a reply to my question, was that the Low Consortium would pay off the debt in full from their own resources.
Now i’m not questioning anyone’s intentions here, however given the debt is £6 million & the reported equity purchase price , & presumably working capital injextion, was £3.5 million, i can’t see how this works from an investment perspective.
£9.5 million on day 1 for Hibs represents a very optimistic view of future value. I would doubt a fan share issue would bring in much more than £1.5 million, and i suspect there would be virtually no institutional investment potential.
The cost of acquiring Hearts was substantially less, and I can see no reason why Hibs would be a stronger investment opportunity .
Maybe i’m missing something, but the numbers don’t work for me
Prohibby says:
August 15, 2014 at 9:09 pm
“The “chapter and verse” contributions in this topic have been most informative as have been the wider discussions.”
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Its nice to see a contribution from a very occasional poster indicating that the discussion has not lost its relevance. I am one of a number of posters that has no shame in voicing their opinions and is willing to suffer the indignation of my words coming back to haunt me. There needs to be that contingent of material to keep the fire burning. However it is often the occasional posters that add poignancy to the discussion. They have perhaps given more forethought before committing their idea to comment.
At the inception of the Rangers Tax Case blog we were in completely new territory. Not only were the circumstances of one particular football club in a highly unusual disposition, the forum provided to analyse these circumstances was quite novel. This gave rise to a highly energetic exchange that created its own momentum. TSFM was designed to pick up on this momentum and use the forum created for a wider purpose; to monitor football governance in general, not just in regard to one or two clubs. The fallout from the Rangers saga is still providing fuel to maintain the community’s interest but I feel we are looking for a bit of direction in which to take discussions. This is not surprising as the bampot community is in its relative infancy.
That’s why posts from occasional contributors are so important; they can lead the discussion off in different directions and cultivate new outlooks. Sometimes they might get ignored as unfamiliar voices but like a real world sport, we need new blood to maintain vigorous discussion.
For me, the course to steer is directly at the heart of the mainstream media. This is far from an unfamiliar concept. For governance to be effective it needs to be scrutinised. If we are subject to a media that seems to be wedded to its own particular agenda, then the right questions don’t get asked. It has become apparent that the media is far too important to be allowed to indulge itself in damaging pursuits like seeking the truth. It needs support the current power structures in order to maintain its position in the status quo. It is a slippery slope that leads down into the pit. To the credit of TSFM, much correction of language has been observed in the media. Our pedantry may well be worthwhile in the long run.
TSFM says:
August 17, 2014 at 1:12 am
Media
People who expect Sports “Journalists” to behave like journalists are always going to be disappointed. They are merely gossip columnists, the best thing to do is to point and laugh at their absurdities, though I have hope for the new generation steeped in social media. That being said, there was a peculiar unanimity about the editorial decision to keep the Ranger’s tax case with the sport’s desks, I suspect this had more to do with the David Murray connection than anything else.
Anti-Celtic/Pro-Rangers bias
It is probably understandable that people’s attitudes, created by many years of experience, are slow to change in the face of new realities. Let’s not kid ourselves, neither the SFA nor the league would have lifted a finger to help Celtic if Fergus had not come on the scene.
I con’t believe that would any longer be the case. Celtic are now very much part of the establishment, with a major presence on all the key decision-making bodies. (My issue here is that there is more than a touch of Animal Farm about it).
I’m also far from convinced that there is an institutional pro-Rangers bias these days. I wouldn’t disagree with the view that some senior managers are, shall I say, very enthusiastic about promoting their view of Ranger’s best interest. The bias that exists, is in favour of the status quo. That bias came through loud and clear in the Topping “Nuclear Winter” email. It is that inability to see beyond the need to maintain two strong clubs in Rangers and Celtic, that is, & will continue, to prevent Scottish Football as a whole from developing in a healthy fashion.
John Clark says:
I’m afraid I could not resist the impulse. I have sent this to the Bauer Academy:
should’ve addressed it straight to Jack.
bet its a one day event though.
TSFM says:
August 17, 2014 at 1:12 am
“….For the avoidance of confusion, evidence of bias in favour of RFC/TRFC, which we have discussed at some length over the last couple of years does not automatically imply anti-Celtic bias ..”
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That is a most important,nay, vital observation.
The ‘crime’ which most of us believe was perpetrated by one significant club, which was not anywhere near properly dealt with by those who govern and administer the ‘rules of the game’ is what unites the posters on this blog.
It is a near-certainty that most of us are supporters of one or other of the many football clubs in the professional game in Scotland.As supporters we will range from the near-fanatical to the blindly-fanatical,and all more moderate levels between!
We all dip in and out of our respective fans’ forums ( fora? or would that be just a tad too precious?) and are principally interested in our own teams.
But we know, very deeply, that there can be no point in sporting competition if there is no belief that the sport can be governed honestly, openly, and in accordance with all the agreed rules.
And I think we are mostly in agreement that there appears to be a serious question as to whether that has been the case, and we fear that,if a certain much speculated scenario becomes a reality, whether it will be the case then, either.
ALL of our clubs have been victims, at least indirectly, of what appears to have been the secret protection and favouritism shown by the Authorities to one club.
And the whole game has been blighted by the levels of suspicion and distrust that the Authorities have brought upon themselves-and continue to attract by their failure to square up to reality.
John Clark says:
August 17, 2014 at 11:16 am
John, that gave me a proper belly laugh.
Keynote speaker? Jim Traynor maybe? 🙄
Firstly, I’ll apologise if I’m misinformed through not listening to the podcast yet as my IT help desk is getting ready to go back to school but his mum has promised he’ll help once he’s done his homework!
Re the hibs valuation. If the debt is being repaid by a separate 6m loan to new hibs and 3.5m working capital is not injected but again loaned on a returnable basis to new hibs from the consortium then that isn’t a 9.5m valuation. Far from it.
Smugas says:
August 17, 2014 at 4:04 pm
No disrepect to Mr Low, who is probably not showing all his cards, but, there is a bit of “Blue Knightiness” about the proposals thus far
Smugas says:
August 17, 2014 at 4:04 pm
Re the hibs valuation. If the debt is being repaid by a separate 6m loan to new hibs and 3.5m working capital is not injected but again loaned on a returnable basis to new hibs from the consortium then that isn’t a 9.5m valuation. Far from it.
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Don’t know where you got that information Smugas, but David Low was fairly explicit. His offer includes paying off the bank debt and putting around £1.5m on the table for working capital. No transferring of debt from one lender to another. Just paying off the debt with their resources and putting in some cash is all.
I don’t know where all the figures come from, but they shouldn’t be inferred from anything he said to me or anything which I have reported.
The real controversy in all of this is that no money is changing hands for shares, and that the major shareholder is not overwhelmed by the generosity of Low’s offer in that regard – although from my restricted financial perspective, if the bank debt is £6m, that is the value of a sale to him.
scapaflow says:
August 17, 2014 at 4:28 pm
No disrepect to Mr Low, who is probably not showing all his cards, but, there is a bit of “Blue Knightiness” about the proposals thus far
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How so?
Big Pink says:
August 17, 2014 at 4:34 pm
It’s a wee bit vague, especially around valuation/share price, (though I accept that this is a negotiation). Early days and all that, someone like Mr Low could be just what Hibs need.
It will be interesting to how/if this develops.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/newcastle-united-owner-mike-ashley-4065649
Why would he, very little chance of a return on investment and what chance of getting his loan back? Has the Letham or Easdale loans been repaid?
martin c says:
August 17, 2014 at 4:46 pm
mmm I wonder which adjective Mr Wallace uses to describe the Merchandising deal?
martin c says:
August 17, 2014 at 4:46 pm
Funnily enough I did wonder the other day when Ashley’s name would come up in the rotation of potential sugar daddies.
From 29 June – Kennedy
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/graeme-souness-ill-return-rangers-3783666
From 8 August -King
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chairman-david-somers-reveals-4022731
[]
wottpi says:
August 17, 2014 at 5:14 pm
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martin c says:
August 17, 2014 at 4:46 pm
Funnily enough I did wonder the other day when Ashley’s name would come up in the rotation of potential sugar daddies.
From 29 June – Kennedy
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/graeme-souness-ill-return-rangers-3783666
From 8 August -King
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chairman-david-somers-reveals-4022731
[]
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maybe they jounalist folkies should be sent on a investigative course or somehing!
or maybe even journalism 101
scapaflow says:
August 17, 2014 at 5:06 pm
I suspect that you have the answer to Martin C’s question, in that Ashley may indeed be willing to give a Wonga loan with shares as security and possibly a bigger cut of presumably an already onerous strip contract.
wottpi says:
August 17, 2014 at 5:22 pm
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scapaflow says:
August 17, 2014 at 5:06 pm
I suspect that you have the answer to Martin C’s question, in that Ashley may indeed be willing to give a Wonga loan with shares as security and possibly a bigger cut of presumably an already onerous strip contract.
scapaflow says:
August 17, 2014 at 5:06 pm
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martin c says:
August 17, 2014 at 4:46 pm
mmm I wonder which adjective Mr Wallace uses to describe the Merchandising deal?
On the subject of onerous contracts and merchandising i wonder who owns the image rights?
Do TRFC pay for use of the “Rangers” name and use of the club crest?
martin c says:
August 17, 2014 at 5:34 pm
Indeed, I seem to recall Charles insisting that he had bought those rights
Going back to the podcast. It’s clear to me that David Low has spotted a way to make money from Hibs and I’m not sure he’ll make his money in the way he describes. From what I can see in the press, it looks like his offer was to cover the Debts but not actually pay anything for a Controlling interest in the club. Businessman trying to take advantage of supporters dissatisfaction to grab himself a football club, where have we heard that before? I might be doing David a disservice but it looks that way to me.
scapaflow says:
August 17, 2014 at 5:36 pm
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martin c says:
August 17, 2014 at 5:34 pm
Indeed, I seem to recall Charles insisting that he had bought those rights
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I wonder if they were separated from the other assets and thus who owns them now, does CG own them personally now and thus no matter who owns “Rangers” you gotta pay for the privilege for saying you are “Rangers”?
With the emotional attachment of fans no need for a very visible sale and leaseback just pay for the privilege to call yourselves “Rangers” and that must be worth a few million a year to the owner of said image rights.
I caught a section of a programme on BBC this morning and the debate was centred round the heading “has football lost it’s soul”. It was in relation to the EPL and one of the panelists stated that the gate money for each club in the EPL was irrelevant and basically the fans could get in for free. She based this on the fact that the TV revenue in football in England was £3 billion. In Scotland all clubs rely on the fans paying through the gate (Govan highlighting this point). This reliance on TV money is IMO not healthy, but in saying that the money we get in Scotland from TV is a pittance and results in players leaving Scotland for English clubs and not many going to the major clubs in the EPL. I have cancelled SKY sports as a result of how the game is controlled by TV revenue.
Big pink,
Apologies ~6m debt and 1.5m ‘injected’ I beg your pardon. But my original point still stands. “Covering the debt” simply allows the shareholder to walk away with whatever is left in cash ie. nada hence the wonderfully lyric if slightly unfair “blue knightiness” allegation. To then inject 1.5 m is great but if it is set up as hibs effectively drawing on a new overdraft then neither they, nor the principle shareholder are any better off!