“Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only saw a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to European success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs. It’s that old UEFA distribution thingy. Auldheid had a sensible alternative a while back.”
Thanks Danish Pastry for giving Big Pink the opportunity to nudge me (over a coffee I paid for – so how’s that for redistribution of income? 🙂 ) to blog again on the issue of redistribution of UEFA money whilst he was advocating gate sharing as an alternative.
I recall the redistribution debate being discussed on the first TSFM podcast Episode 1-01 of 9th Feb 2014 which can be found here:
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/scottish-football-monitor/id817766886?mt=2
Listening to it again (I used “View in I Tunes”) I heard many of the recent comments on the previous blog being made in that podcast at or around:
9.58: The interdependent nature of the business of football. Why it is different from normal business.
10.50: Celtic/Rangers leaving the Scottish League making it immediately more competitive.
11.30: Clubs as a community resource (like museums or libraries not run for profit, providing a community service and staying solvent).
12.48: People have to let go of the notions that they have held about the nature of football and recognise it is a totally interdependent business.
13.55: Changing the Champions League format to European and Regional Leagues and raising the standard of all, not dropping standards of one to bring about competiveness.
25.50: A rethink at the top level with NEW thinking about redistribution of income using Champions League money.
27.50: The human dilemma.
So rather than repeat what was said originally and very well developed in the comments on the Michael Grant article on the previous blog, I thought I would look at what I think is the greatest barrier to change which was the last item above – the human dilemma. *
Modern football reminds me of a description of a scene from hell where a visitor looks into one room and sees an emaciated group around a table on which is set a large pot full of stew. They cannot eat because their arms have been set straight at the elbow and elongated so that they cannot get a spoon in their mouths. It is a miserable place. Then the visitor goes upstairs and enters a similar room with occupants similarly handicapped, but where everyone is well fed and contented. “How can this be?” he asks his guide. “Well downstairs all their energies are spent in the nigh impossible task of feeding their insatiable hunger, whilst up here they simply feed each other.”
The analogy is bent a little but not broken in the sense that there are fat and emaciated folk in the football version of the lower room but it is not a healthy place as the fat can themselves become emaciated over time (see Liverpool and even Man Utd) but, generally speaking, self-interest or rather what is perceived as self-interest, holds sway.
Human nature that causes the human dilemma is well reflected in normal business where dog eats dog, then eats the food of the dog it ate if it comes out top dog. Football however cannot exist on a dog eat dog basis because it is interdependent as a business. Dog eating dog is bad for business because over a period of time even the top dog will die of starvation.
Now without abusing the dog metaphor any further and risk attracting dog’s abuse, why is it that something which should be as self-evident as looking after each other is good for business, be such a hard sell?
I said in the podcast around 12.48 that folk need to let go of the notions they have clung on to about football, but why is that so difficult?
Perhaps the resistance to that change can be found, at least in the case of Celtic, who at present are asked in the current debate to make a sacrifice for others, either in the form of gate sharing or giving up some Champion Leagues winnings (if/when they qualify) can be found in the genesis of the club and the memory of that genesis passed from generation to generation.
Everyone knows that the original purpose that Brother Walfrid had for Celtic was to feed the poor in the East End of Glasgow and many of that poor had come from Ireland to be strangers in a strange land.
As a Calton man born in the Gallowgate, as was my grandfather (my dad was found under a cabbage in Well St) I’ve never really identified much with the Irish context of Celtic’s history, although I do recognise its importance to many supporters with Irish family ties, but that dimension adds a further layer to the human dilemma.
Think of it, you form a football club to raise money to feed yourself because you live in an environment where welcome mats are in short supply. That money raised is YOUR money. Your life depends on it as does your family’s as well as your close neighbour (usually in the same close). How prepared are you to share what income you have had to raise yourself with others who you believe have been less than charitable towards you?
Add that folk memory to the human selfish trait of wanting what you spend on football spent on meeting your own desire, which is to make you happy watching an entertaining and successful team on the park and you get an idea of where the resistance to a more equitable sharing comes from and how deep it goes.
I use Celtic here because they are my club and part of my life experience and I have no idea if other clubs experience that added layer of resistance to sharing, if indeed they are in position to share. But if we are ever to be able to introduce gate sharing or what I see as the easier alternative of redistribution of UEFA geld because in not coming direct from supporters pockets it has less of the Celtic folk memory layer to overcome, then those who will be asked to make a sacrifice have to be given the confidence that the aim is not to impoverish them (and the Celtic community memory of poverty and fighting it is as strong today in the form of The Celtic Foundation, The Kano Foundation and the numerous charity events organised by supporters and prominent blogs) but to enrich their neighbours, but doing so in such a way that they enrich themselves. That is the challenge.
In the upper room in the earlier hellish description, the occupiers present the ultimate example of charity in that in feeding each other they feed themselves.
- PS the podcast covers other issues that some 18 months later might still be of interest.
* Regarding Phil & admin not an option, I can see he’s mentioned it’s to do with Ashley being the main secured creditor.
* Cheers Prohibby for the details.
A very confident sounding DK on the in-house channel; almost as confident as he was about nomads, re-listing, etc. Really sticking his neck out in these interviews.
http://youtu.be/9IxG_6uIuDo
David Low on FB:
DL is very fastidious on these kinda things.
OnandOnandOnand says:
Member:
September 10, 2015 at 4:48 pm
Thanks for that.
So for clarity, people can only use a Receiver if they have a floating charge from prior to that date and their debt is not being paid. That option will not be open to Sports Direct.
Big Pink says: September 10, 2015 at 8:18 pm
David Low’s comments appear to come from a Herald article
http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13713228.Firm_formerly_linked_to_Craig_Whyte_ups_the_ante_on_its_claim_on_the___18m_Rangers_oldco_creditors_pot/
With regards to Phil’s comment about Administration not being an option I’m looking at it in a much simpler way; there won’t be any money to pay a bunch of Administrators. How many guys did the Duffers have on the premises at their height?
These guys don’t work for free!
If they run out of cash they will simply padlock the gates and walk away (no pun intended).
Still it is always nice to have the comfort blanket of “Hibs approached us to buy Scott Allan and then changed their mind”.
Seriously!
No really seriously!
Surely even the most delusional will be questioning this latest nonsense.
Perhaps if they do question that and dare to go a step further and ask “If he is spouting this rubbish what is he trying to deflect attention away from?”
However we now know the new mantra that will be accepted and chanted endlessly by the faithful …………….. oh and the media.
easyJambo says:
Member:
September 10, 2015 at 9:01 pm
__________________________________
EJ
David posted this on Facebook along with the full article. I misunderstood the relationship between comment and article.
Apologies to the blog.
However the veracity of White’s claim is I think important.
Getting a bit worried. After a day and a half, we’ve only sold eight tickets 🙁
I hope thirty-five of you haven’t changed your minds…
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer:
September 10, 2015 at 8:12 pm
Its dead easy to be confident when you know that no-one of any consequence will challenge your assertions, and, you will be 9,500 miles away when the shit finally hits the fan.
Edit
Bayview Gold: Dunno if there is a record, but as one Rangers fan pointed out to me, “All the recent Ranger’s boards have spent their time investigating their own members, previous board members, helping the Police with their enquiries, or all three at the same. Its little wonder that zero time appears to be spent on the day to day…”
Does anyone know the world record for number of concurrent & pending court cases involving a company/club and its officers? ( apropos of nothing 🙂 )
Big Pink says: September 10, 2015 at 9:10 pm
However the veracity of White’s claim is I think important.
==========================
My understanding was that Whyte transferred ownership of Sevco 5088 to Law Financial, then sold Law Financial to Worthington in 2013.
Here is an extract from Worthington’s accounts for the period.
The value of the claim retained as an asset in Worthington’s accounts was £10M.
In recent months Worthington negotiated a change to exercise price for the warrants from 5p to 10p and set a date by which legal action must commence at 28th September 2015 (hence the action now).
I don’t know what interests Whyte currently has in Worthington. He may have none, but equally so may have an interest via a nominee company or just the loan notes.
Worthington itself remains suspended on AIM and has a questionable future. (a successful £18M claim would make a huge difference to its prospects)
Now if Mr DCK looks over to his right, he will get a reminder. And if the person who is interviewing him has a look he could also get a reminder.
How is the re-negotiations of the retail deal coming along.
Have you put a stop to the 7 year rolling contract yet
Dave King now wants to revive the Oldco
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dave-king-vows-bring-back-6420730
It’s not 1st April is it?
It sort of suggests that even Dave King doesn’t think the current club is the same as the old one.
————–
Also a Q&A
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dave-king-qa-rangers-chairman-6420455
easyJambo says:
Member:
September 10, 2015 at 10:51 pm
Dave King now wants to revive the Oldco
—————————————————–
Read the article and could not stop laughing. They wonder why their figures are going down. But they can only write what Mr King states. Enough is enough. A man can only laugh for so long. Still it is what the Govan fans want to here. Bobby Dallas somehow springs to mind.
Is that him happy ?
http://www.sfmonitor.org/wp-content/uploads/king-interview-300×169.jpg
Well DK is an innovative business leader for one thing, jetting in to tell us of his use of necromancy as a corporate strategy.
valentinesclown says: September 10, 2015 at 11:03 pm
————————
Even Mark Dingwall brought a smile to my face with this:
Follow Follow @Follow_Follow_ · 12m12 minutes ago
Dave King is hilarious & like a crate of Viagra for the poor journos. Just says what he thinks, heads off back to SA, with not a f**k given.
The King/Jackson Q & A is liveon the Record site. Be warned Frost/Nixon it is not.
A wee flavour from King:
” At this moment in time, Rangers is not something you should be putting other people’s money into.”
The Oldco/Newco debate will be re-ignited that after this comment, talk about pouring petrol on to a bonfire
“Q: Could the legal action present problems in terms of the ownership of the club?
A: There are certainly a load of complications as to where things might end up. Craig Whyte has now come up with this new Worthington claim. There are a lot of messy things which will have to be dealt with.
We have a vision going forward where I would like to see us taking Oldco out of liquidation and putting assets back into Oldco – putting Rangers back into the old company. We can’t do it while all this stuff is being sorted out.
Q: Why is reviving the Oldco important to you?
A: It would be a good thing to do. It would be back to the traditional Rangers. I think the supporters would like it. It is not economically important but it is something I would like to do.
Q: A sense of closure? You could almost put an asterisk beside these past few years?
A: Exactly. You can never rewind what has happened but in 100 years’ time you might look back and say there was a blip of four or five years in Rangers’ history when this all happened and it was resolved to the norm again.
Q: Is it feasible?
A: It is practically feasible and legally feasible. We just have to get in the position where the liquidators have done everything they can. The club can then be rehabilitated.
But if you have all these claims floating around, where we don’t really know who is claiming assets and what they are, then it will continue for a longer period.
Q: Would this result in the oldco’s creditors being paid back in full?
A: You don’t have to pay 100p in the pound to creditors. If creditors accept a compromise and waive some of the debt it could be 50p or 60p in the pound.
Q: But better from a moral point of view?
A: Yes. At the moment if you look at the potential for the liquidation, with getting the money from Collier Bristow plus potential other claims, if HMRC are taken out the picture, then there is an opportunity for everyone to get 100p in the pound.
Take Craig Whyte’s new claim out of the picture as well and people could conceivably get 100p in the pound.
Q: You’ve previously expressed regret about the creditors. Is that part of why you want to do this?
A: Yes. It’s an emotional thing as well with the supporters.
They hear all this, ‘you’re not Rangers any more’. And ‘You are a new club.’ We just want to put all that behind us and say we had this unwanted period and now we are back to where we were. It would be a good thing.
Q: Do the newco jibes hurt?
A: Not as much as it hurts the fans. I’m told about it but I’m not in there all the time. It’s part of being in Glasgow. It’s part of the history of the two clubs. Rangers fans over the years have been keen to have a dig at Celtic when there is an option to do so. To me it’s not really serious.”
Beyond parody, beyond sarcasm, and way, way beyond a rational view of the world. Welcome to Never Never Land.
There is a story line in the West Wing about a federal case against Big Tobacco. A couple of Democratic Congressmen hold up the appropriations for the Fed legal team. When quizzed they say they have legal concerns as fag packets have had health warnings for decades. Therefore whilst smokers were not undeserving of legal protection, they were too stupid to warrant it.
If Rangers fans lap up this guff from King, in my view, they will most certainly be too stupid to warrant sympathy, legal protection or anything else.
John Clark says:
Member:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
September 10, 2015 at 11:19 pm
easyJambo says:
Member:
September 10, 2015 at 10:51 pm
‘.Dave King now wants to revive the Oldco.’
_______
GSAL and now a seeming madman insane fantasist! But I love his view of death as being but a mere ‘blip’.
Such lunatic nonsense, and such grovelling fawning to a feckin idiot, is taking us well into the psychiatric wards, I fear.
But if the GASL is now openly acknowledging that there was a death, there may be some degree of sanity. Or perhaps he is still the GASL, and what he says is the opposite of what he means.
We find that with with people who are gasls.
Have I got this right?
King has admitted they don’t have the money to last the season BUT will exist on loans until then. Or that’s the gist of it as I read it.
Is it not in the rules(no sniggering) that this kind of fiscal policy cannot be tolerated????
I’m sorry but Dave King is no longer the wide eyed Gers mad supporter of my recollection but now a wild eyed loon.
I doubt he even believes 10% of what he came away with today.
I wonder if he has any other interviews scheduled, I mean strictly non media?
I have fallen foul of the mods, I’m afraid, in my comment some minutes ago on Dave king’s view that death is but a mere blip, blah blah blah.
How that man retains any credibility is beyond comprehension.
But in so far as he acknowledges that something needs ‘revivifying’ (= brought back to life) there may be a hint of sanity there.
I’m intrigued that kingy managed to describe that corporate strategy and not use the word ‘incubator ‘ even the once !
scapaflow says:
Member:
September 10, 2015 at 11:17 pm
‘…Q: Do the newco jibes hurt?
A: Not as much as it hurts the fans. I’m told about it but I’m not in there all the time. It’s part of being in Glasgow. It’s part of the history of the two clubs.’
_________
And there we have it.
There is only one other club that King relates to. It is only Celtic fans who question TRFC’s origins and legitimacy.
What an evil attitude of mind the man brings, to try to bolster support for a very ailing club that is likely to die the death that the old RFC died.
And he, with all his squillions, will not risk any serious money to save!
The man is ,to the utmost degree, contemptible.
As is, I meant to add, our lick-spittle,Keef!.
If this keeps up I look forward to the end of the year and DCK starring in a sequel to Charlie Chuckles Christmas Message!
Was going to go into detail why all King”s BS ain’t gonna happen but maybe best to simply point out if today’s nonsense had been spouted by a banker from Lithuania the press would have had a field day.
I think, if he did nothing else today, King has proved my OCNC theory to be 100% correct. King has as much as said that he would like to rescue OldCo because Newco is not the same feeling and tradition. He is not alone. Walter Smith said much the same before recanting. So too did several of the Non TUPE players. So too did Charles Green and James Traynor, and so too did the screaming headlines on all of the front pages the day the CVA was rejected.
King knows, they all know, that RFC are in the throes of being expired. They just don’t want to admit it. If I’m honest, I see where he is coming from, but on the basis that everything happens for a reason, I think this is the trailer for a big OCNC let-down coming up.
I have to say that IF they could manage to put the liquidation genie back in the bottle, then the OCNC debate is over for me, but get real – it’s not gonna happen is it?
Even if it is possible, and I am interested to hear our resident experts’ views on a possible route by which it might, the sums of money required would be so great that it would be impractical. And if they could afford to pay it all back, you’d have to wonder out loud why they went bust in the first place.
Some food for thought for all of those who regard this an anti-Rangers blog. Whilst it would be foolish to deny that there is a deal of antipathy towards the Ibrox club(s), our aim is the same as that of the majority of football supporters everywhere – including Rangers fans.
It is to see our national game rid of the chancers like Murray, Whyte, Green, Ashley and King and their enablers at Hampden and press-rooms across the country; those who played Twister with the rule-book and journalistic codes of conduct to keep their friends and wallets happy, without a thought for the traditions of the sport and the communities it serves.
King is selling the same moonbeams to Rangers fans as Murray and Charlie Green did. He will surely fail, as they did. King’s statement tonight is I think the first serious sign that the dam is not holding.
The truth is coming.
Big Pink on September 11, 2015 at 12:35 am
I tend to agree with your intuition that something is coming – if not why in goodness sake did he even broach the OCNC subject?
No win with his supporters
But returning to fondly reminiscing on “Traditional Rangers” with those cuddly traditional values and fan-favourite songs
The King of Ibrox uses Sky Sports to tell some of the truth about DM, no doubt as “justification” of his claim against RFC plc (In Liquidation)? 😯
Dave King turns on former Rangers owner David Murray: You are to blame for Craig Whyte and the club’s financial collapse
DAVE KING has laid the blame for Rangers’ financial collapse squarely at the door of former owner David Murray.
The current Rangers chief has also said that he has invested more money in the club than any other person in its history.
Speaking in an interview on Sky Sports News ahead of his meeting with Sports Direct chief Mike Ashley to discuss the club’s existing retail deal, King looked back on the time he previously spent on the board during Murray’s boom then bust years.
Reflecting on his decision to invest £20million of his own cash in a club that was hemorrhaging funds, King said that his only disappointment was that Murray did not come clean about the true financial situation.
By staying silent and waiting until the banks stepped in, King said Murray is directly to blame for the arrival of Craig Whyte and the club’s slide into administration and ensuing liquidation.
“I sat on the board under David Murray for most of that period,” said King, “so I was aware what we were doing with the money.
Picture of DM
Murray claimed he was duped into selling Rangers to Whyte
“The only thing that was disappointing for me was, at the end of it, when the Murray Group was getting in trouble and David Murray was losing control of the situation, he should have fronted up with people like myself a lot sooner and we could have taken action at that point, early enough, before the banks came in and took control, it would have averted what happened from the Craig Whyte era onwards.
“For David’s own reasons, whether he didn’t want to come and admit to people that things were getting out of control, David maybe felt that he would turn the thing around and make it work, so he was trying to keep it close to his chest.
“Maybe if he had opened up to some of us earlier and said, ‘look, this is what’s happening, I am losing control of my businesses, you have invested with me in this and we must look at other alternatives’, but he didn’t do that.
“I think that’s a great pity, how he as a person behaved to someone who had supported him,” King added. “I think I put more money into Rangers than David Murray did. I don’t think he ever put £20m of his own money in. I thought it was his money, it turns out it was the bank’s money.
“So I have probably put more money into Rangers than any single person in the history of the club.”
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dave-king-turns-former-rangers-6118581
Back of a fag packet on folk owed money.
Ticketus £24M (Debt to Lloyd was £18M)
HMRC £14M PAYE/VAT £3m WTC ?? BTC
Other Creditors ??
SD £5M
To reach CL qualifiers £20M (assumes Celtic don’t outwage)
Looks like £70M exc BTC if HMRC win appeal)
Mr K appears not to be sitting on his rocker.
Bayview Gold says:
Member:
September 11, 2015 at 1:16 am (Edit)
What made them unsellable was the BTC case threat.
CW ran them into the ground after Malmo/Maribor losses but might have avoided administration had the not exited.
Perhaps he is thinking that they can roll back to that point where exc BTC and PAYE money a CV could have been obtained?
Occam’s Razor says he is mad.
Big Pink / Trisidium
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34214896
Just for a bit of fun any chance of Poll(s) to guess the Quantum of the “improved terms” of the SPFL TV deal and Neil Doncaster’s bonus?
The one thing that is a constant throughout is the absolute dependence on CL money to sustain their business model past and future.
In 2010 Jelavic was signed for £4M. In June 2011 only the arrival of the £4m CL money in June 2011 that Jelavic helped get access to enabled Rangers to pay an instalment to Rapid Vienna so that they had no outstanding football debt that would have stopped them keeping the UEFA licence granted in March because the Jelavic money was not yet due and the wee tax bill had not arrived.
The statement made to UEFA AND not checked by SFA in June 2011 iro the wee tax case bill was false, that is how dependent they had become on CL money and this guy wants to return the game to that model?
Worse – our media don’t see that it was the dependence on CL money that really killed them. Its the Insanity definition.
Dave King is correct, if you take HMRC out of picture, we could ALL have 100p in the pound !!!!!!!!
Jonathan Sutherland (or a parody account?) has posted four back pages. I thought they were photoshopped but checking The Record it seems not. I can see the blog night owls got the scent of this. Is this the nailing of the dead parrot to the perch moment? It’s an unexpected twist in a long line of twisty things 🙂 https://twitter.com/bbcjsutherland/status/642190481389146112
Reading these latest comments by Dave King a couple of things struck me.
Dave King does not believe the current Rangers are the same club. Why even raise the issue given the staunch rebuttal by all Ibrox leaders since 2012 to anyone who dares to claim they are a new club? Perhaps the impending risk of the new club fact being stated in a court in the next 12 months is playing on his mind. Also, the shenanigans that took place on Hampden’s 6th floor to even permit them to claim they are the same club may be heard in the same court.
King’s crazy comments are right up there with the best we’ve heard over the years. They are up there with Murray’s European league, Hotel, Casino, Shopping Mall, 70,000 seater stadium with retractable roof and hover pitch. They are up there with Whyte’s front loaded £25M warchest to McCoist paid for from from his spare billions. They are up there with Green’s claim to buy trophies and history, 500 million Rangers fans, Dallas Cowboys link, and Real Madrid and Barcelona wanting Rangers in their league.
If the media MUST run with this nonsense, then they have a duty to point out that is exactly what it is. Ibrox is still a very shaky house of cards. What journalist worth his or her salt truly wants to be tainted by giving any credence at all to such madness!
So King is saying that his alter ego has been advised (by him) not to invest in the new club.well that’s the war chest staying closed.
sannoffymesssoitizz says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:34 am
The King of Ibrox uses Sky Sports to tell some of the truth about DM, no doubt as “justification” of his claim against RFC plc (In Liquidation)?
…
———–
Note that this report is from 22nd July, not part of yesterday’s moonbeams.
On the subject of Mr King’s suggestion from left field that the creditors of Oldco should be paid – am I confused or does he not currently have a gigantic claim in as being top creditor? After HMRC that is.
“easyJambo says:
Member:
September 10, 2015 at 10:51 pm
Dave King now wants to revive the Oldco
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dave-king-vows-bring-back-6420730
It’s not 1st April is it?
It sort of suggests that even Dave King doesn’t think the current club is the same as the old one.
————–
Also a Q&A
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dave-king-qa-rangers-chairman-6420455”
First post since the RTC days, very long time lurker here, basically since day 1.
Is DCK mad, I am no legal mind but if he is going to bring RFC(IL) back (no sniggering) surely this must be done before BDO finish? Is it possible to bring a liquidated company back to life?
Also what if creditors have already accepted say 2p in the pound, does DCK then have to negotiate with them again or does he do something else, like get a hover pitch with a casino above whilst wearing MW magic hat?
Enjoy the Perth get together, would have liked to have come, but sadly I’ll be at work in KSA.
sannoffymesssoitizz says:
Member:
September 11, 2015 at 2:34 am
“Reflecting on his decision to invest £20million of his own cash in a club that was hemorrhaging funds, King said that his only disappointment was that Murray did not come clean about the true financial situation.
By staying silent and waiting until the banks stepped in, King said Murray is directly to blame for the arrival of Craig Whyte and the club’s slide into administration and ensuing liquidation.
“I sat on the board under David Murray for most of that period,” said King, “so I was aware what we were doing with the money.
_____________________________________________________________________________
So was he aware of what was happening or not!? We need a howling at the moon emoji!
There certainly seems to be an increasing rate of crumbleage of the Ibrox facade in recent weeks. The pressure is beginning to take its toll. But what does seem clear from this recent flurry is that the TRFC Chairman fully understands that TRFC is not RFC. Odds on one of members of the SMSM reporting it in such a way must be pretty high though.
The BDO dividend to unsecured creditors which was delayed as a result of the Law Financial action was reported to be for total of £10M at between 6p-7p in the £.
A couple of quick calculations using those numbers mean that the total unsecured creditors claim was £167M at 6p or £143M at 7p.
The last BDO creditors reports indicated the that the total claim was £169M (including King’s £20M). That sum also included HMRC’s full claim of £94M (£72M of which related to the BTC), also £3.3M due to Football Creditors which should probably drop off the list as they have been paid in full by the Newco.
It was also stated in BDO’s last creditors report that HMRC’s share of the dividend, related to the BTC, would be retained until such time as the appeals process was concluded.
By my reckoning, if the actual dividend was close to 7p in the £, then it would suggest that King’s £20M claim has been rejected.
Well, when you think you’ve heard it all this fiasco turns it up to another level. When this is all said and done the story will surely only be able to be told properly via a Rob Reiner mockumentary.
Any reference to oldco and newco below is for purposes of shorthand only.
Regardless of the plausibility of such an outcome, if by some miracle Dave King manages to resuscitate RFC (IL) and transfer the assets back to it and relaunch it as a solvent business then I will doff my cap to him. However, I can’t help but feel this is the largest squirrel yet.
Putting credulity aside and thinking for a minute or two about his agenda here:
– implicit acceptance that newco isn’t oldco, you can see why he’d want to do it
– newco is not sustainable, one can understand why he wouldn’t want to throw good money after bad
– the current fraud cases might question the ownership of the assets in favour of oldco
– these cases might allow “the club” to extricate itself from the various onerous contracts and unfavourable retail deals – they were entered into by newco, who took the assets fraudulently from oldco
Overall I can kind of see why he’d want to do it. However the challenges are great:
– it would be an incredibly tricky set of transactions and events required to get things from newco back into oldco
– it may take a fair sum to extricate newco from it’s situation
– it would take a fair sum to rehabilitate oldco from liquidation
– oldco’s liquidation surely still has years to run, at least reliant on the outcome of the current fraud cases as well as the BTC which rumbles on
– isn’t Craig Whyte still the majority owner of Oldco?
– Dave King owns neither Oldco or Newco
Just read the Herald which confirms one of my points above.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13713553.Dave_King_sets_out_vision_to_pay_off_Rangers__oldco_creditors/
“And an informed liquidation expert told the Herald that Mr King’s plan if successful would only result in the oldco either being dissolved or placed back into the hands of the previous owner, Craig Whyte.”
From the same Herald article:
“It has previously been confirmed that £72m of the £94.4m owed to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) relies on the outcome of their ‘big tax case’ appeal.”
Is this correct? Didn’t HMRC win some points and lose some, surely only part of the £72m relies on the appeals? Some of the sum stand regardless of outcome, no?
Dave King has jetted in to effectively concede that TRFC is not the same as “the old Rangers”. His preferred option, paying off Oldco’s creditors and reversing the liquidation, is real pie in the sky stuff, given the sums involved.
But I wonder why he would say that now? Is he getting the Bears ready for a TRFC insolvency? By peddling the idea that TRFC isn’t the real deal, he is making its death a lot more palatable to the support. He could then, with Ashley’s agreement, shift the assets into a Newnewco, while assuring the Bears that this was just a temporary measure, pending the fantasy island resurrection of Oldco.
Whatever he intends, I can’t see anything happening until the criminal cases are heard, since maybe King hopes that the courts could do his work for him by resetting the clock to Valentine’s day 2012.
As for all this guff about McCoist and his mum, what on earth is that all about? From zero to hero in the course of an interview. McCoist has been given so much stick by the fans over the last 12 months that you would have to say that rehabilitation is impossible. Maybe King knows better, but I think he might need to borrow Warburton’s magic hat to pull that one off. And the question again is why- and why now. Did McCoist make it a condition of giving up 3 months salary that King should re-annoint him as a Real Rangers Man?
It is all getting very bizarre. Was Charles Green just Dave King in disguise? Or vice versa?
At least The Herald appears to be treating King’s Trip for what it is:
“An informed liquidation expert told The Herald that Mr King’s plan if successful would only result in either oldco being dissolved or placed back in the hands of the previous owner, Craig Whyte”
Informed liquidation expert, so not I’m guessing their usual go to guy then. Back to giggling like a drain everyone
zerotolerance1903 says: September 11, 2015 at 9:53 am
From the same Herald article:
“It has previously been confirmed that £72m of the £94.4m owed to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) relies on the outcome of their ‘big tax case’ appeal.”
Is this correct? Didn’t HMRC win some points and lose some, surely only part of the £72m relies on the appeals? Some of the sum stand regardless of outcome, no?
=========================
I would guess that the “reconvened” FTTT will address this point. A number of issues have been referred back to them including “grossing up” and a review of 35 or so termination payments which even Lord Doherty believed may be taxable.
Can ‘t help but think that this relates to the FTTT appeal being upheld.
Does King have inside info in advance of the result being published?
Given that he mentions eliminating the HMRC debt and the new Law Financial claim as being invalid, then if his claim is successful, he is the No1 creditor with a 20M claim. No wonder he thinks it feasible and entirely logical for the creditors’ to get back 100p/pound, and now mentions the resurection of oldco.
…or have I totally lost the plot….. :irony: ❓
Wow, thats all I can say about Kings latest outpourings. Questions that immediately arise are why? and why now?
Sounds to me like rangers mk 2 are in deep trouble, if the only way to extricate themselves is to resurrect the old co then then things must be very grim indeed.
To even bring this up for discussion tells me it is desperate times at ibrox.
And also the fact that king doesn’t own the old co is a bit of a stumbling block as well, whyte owns it(if i’m wrong please correct me).
Very strange, just when you think you have a handle on what is going on, another twist comes along, a bit like ally coming to an agreement with them, 3 months before his contract ends anyway? what was the need for that?
A wee poll question, who talks more incoherent nonsense, ( or more accurately total pish) Donald Trump or Dave King?
Neither gives the impression that they are self aware but I cannot believe that. At least Charles Green recognised his transparency and carried it off with chutzpah.
Each jetting in calls for a more grandiose set of promises and I look forward to him becoming eternal president like that boy in North Korea he is it that stage of moon wailing after that who knows the first RRM on Mars perhaps.
If folk believe him then it is wilful Idiocracy.
No, but from the photo’s I’m still not convinced its not Kenny Dalgleish!
One of the problems of trying to roll back time for RFC and revive it is that time includes the damage limitation exercise embarked on from 2011 by SFA after Regan and Ogilvie met CW and A Russel over dinner.
That damage limitation exercise also involved the SPL and produced the LNS Commission which is accepted, based on evidence and failure to respond to it, was misled. Then there is the Bryson interpretation that turned previous understandings of eligibility on its head.
It has caused SFA to stall and stonewall on how UEFA licence 2011 was kept and of course SPFL to sit on the evidence that they were misled during the commissioning of LNS.
I remember at the time of Bryson thinking a new reality in which nothing seriously damaging to our game had taken place was being created, but reality is not a Bendy Toy ( remember them). Reality “is” and “is” remains “is” until the pain of not recognising it drives the bent reality back into its real shape governed by morals and ethics that produce guilt and shame.
Thus the 5 Way Agreement and LNS and even the SFA Judicial Review that were all the result of damage limitation are becoming undone.
The 5 Way supported the same club myth that DK is now saying is not the case, LNS has been revealed as a contrivance and CW might just help in the unbending of the a SFA Judicial Review that forgot about the non payment of the wee tax case bill.
It would be encouraging to think that a moral corner was being turned over Ibrox way, but coming from someone who seems not to recognise what shame is, it’s a hard ask to believe him.
However if the moral genie is out the bottle let’s see if it can grant one wish.
Come clean everyone involved, from RFC to SFA to SPFL to our media.
Beat reality to the punch or rather become part of it.
bfbpuzzled says:
Member:
September 11, 2015 at 10:30 am
A wee poll question, who talks more incoherent nonsense, ( or more accurately total pish) Donald Trump or Dave King?
************************************************************
King by a wide margin.
After every time he speaks I hear Karen Dunbar’s Olive Actory from Chewin’ The Fat.
Neepheid
On McCoist ‘s rehabilitation: If you accept RFC were founded in 1984 and remain in 1984 it becomes a lot clearer ( for those who read 1984)
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer:
September 11, 2015 at 2:43 am
———————————–
My Edits in []
———————————–
Back of a [Dave King] fag packet on folk owed money.
Ticketus £24M (Debt to Lloyd was £18M) [Nothing to do with us, apart from the Lloyds repayment bit. That was us obviously.]
HMRC £14M PAYE/VAT £3m WTC ?? BTC [GTF]
Other Creditors ?? [See Keef/level 5 for DR exclusives – “Magician Gets Magically Repaid” for PR Value. Note to self I am not a.n.other creditor. Descriptions need work.]
SD £5M [see HMRC – note to self, be a lot easier if he would sign new Retail contract first though…]
To reach CL qualifiers £20M (assumes Celtic don’t outwage) [just have to gamble they won’t get in either]
Looks like £70M exc BTC if HMRC win appeal) [looks like 7m tops once I get my 10m. So 7m to the dear old club (always makes me laugh that one) leaves 4 or 5m to me, I think, is it?]
Mr K appears not to be sitting on his rocker.
The 2012 CVA was presented to creditors on the basis that Monsieur Vert had purchased the majority shareholding from the MBB.
If it transpires that Wavetower still own those shares, or that a businessman from the southern hemisphere has somehow managed to take possession of same, you may well wonder if that CVA was no more than a sham.
I am sure that current proceedings will establish that ownership of the majority shareholding in old Rangers is held by a resident of Normandy.
It would be difficult to explain anything else.
Syskya1888
The same possibility struck me that he got wind of result of HRMC appeal and is putting himself into a position of being largest creditor. As ever we will see.
Apologies for being off topic
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-34202858
For the love of God, how can you take back something you don’t own?
“Simply ditching newco for oldco might set us back three years, unless we do it in consultation with UEFA, but taking it back as a subsidiary is far less problematic”
“I have every faith in King, and I believe that anything he does or says will benefit Rangers in the long run.”
These people do not warrant, sympathy, protection or anything else, hell mend them
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer:
September 11, 2015 at 11:35 am
The same possibility struck me that he got wind of result of HRMC appeal and is putting himself into a position of being largest creditor. As ever we will see.
*****************************************************
Whether he’s the largest creditor or not (IMHO not, he’s not even A creditor) is all a bit moot isn’t it. The opportunity for a CVA has passed as the company is now in liquidation so there are no votes to be had on proposals, just the liquidator grafting away to secure the best possible outcome for creditors who get what they get like it or lump it.
I don’t think there’s any great rationale behind King’s comments beyond softening up the Rangers fans for the fact that a 3rd company may be limbering up in the sidelines.
If he’s able to go ‘Well, that 2nd company – that was the one of Charles Green and Craig Whyte and all that nonsense, and it tainted the club by it’s association with it. Therefore, in the interests of our good name, what I’m doing now is merely getting rid of that tainted company and setting up a new one. Sorry? Administration? Well, it’s merely the simplest way of getting rid of the current tainted company.
Have I mentioned that the current company is tainted?’
Probably a lot easier to sell another administration/Liquidation at Ibrox if it’s being done purely to keep the Chivalric code of Rangers in repute.
Also interesting that people would get close to 100p in the pound if you exclude HMRC, apparently. I’m debt free if you exlude my mortgage. I look like Brad Pitt, if you exclude my face.
WOW! Me too! My long lost twin brother after all these years! What chance both of us would show up here?
Carfins Finest says:
September 10, 2015 at 2:48 pm
I see Mr King is thanking Celtic for signing Scott Alan and weakening their biggest rival. All a cunning plan from TRFC. What he really means is we did not and do not have any money for transfers and have been made to look really silly here but Hibs started it….
_________________________
His stance on this was truly bizarre:
>Hibs asked us to buy Scott Allan but when we tried to do so they refused to sell
It’s worse than a 10 year old boy’s excuse for not doing his homework.
Did anyone else pick up on his statement that TRFC will definitely win the league (championship)? The reporters in both STV and BBC reports last night concurred with this view. Then there was the bit about challenging Celtic for the SPL title next season with the addition of 5 more players.
Now it this early stage it seems likely that they will, but I wonder what the media’s reaction might be if Peter Lawwell came out and said Celtic will definitely win the SPL this season and then with 5 additional players will be challenging Man Utd etc. in the Champions League?
John Collins anyone?
We all know the expression ‘a good day to bury bad news’ . My feeling is that Kingy is taking it to the next level. Level 5 perhaps?
In creating such a fanciful shower if absolute bullshit he has created the perfect conditions in which to bury his own bad news – within the very same press conference.
In short the message is, ‘ I’m doing my best to be the messiah and I will lead you all back home . . . . . BUT . . . . this Court case stuff . . . .’
Yeah, it’s the first time the Bears have been told by one of their own (the only situation where they’ll listen) that this court case stuff might stop them getting to where they ultimately want to go (their rightful place atop Scottish football etc)
Re the oldco resuscitation.
There are a few things that might make the idea feasible.
1. Conclusion of the Liquidation investigations and any consequential proceedings. HMRC’s primary objective in appointing BDO will have been fulfilled. I will make no further comment on this point.
2. Conclusion of The Big Tax Case
Regardless of the outcome, HMRC have no incentive to vote against a proposal that would give it – and other creditors – a greater return than dissolving the company. They will have their EBT precedent or they won’t – either way the only remaining objective wrt Rangers, is to maximise their return as a creditor.
3. The Ticketus Contract came to an end, IIRC, in season 2015 / 2016. Like the new club’s SD contracts, the Ticketus arrangements would almost certainly have survived the old club’s administration, but not liquidation. Now that the contract has expired, a CVA would place them in line with the other unsecured creditors.
Of course, we have to assume that the current club have (or can get) a controlling interest in the old club and that they are willing to offer a substantial amount. An amount that is sufficient to persuade the liquidators that a CVA would have a realistic chance of success if they were to apply to the court to return oldco to administration.
Personally, I think the new club would have a reasonable chance of success if they have the shares in RFC and could offer £2m – £3m.
That said, all they would be rescuing would be the shell of the old club. If the current incarnation goes into administration, the name, badges – and presumably history 😀 – would stay with uncle Mike.
Wouldn’t it be wonderfully ironic, if the old club was resurrected – but couldn’t use the old name and badges.
If anyone is interested it appears Graham Spiers is trying to worm his way back into favour. How sad he does not stress the empathy should be with those who lost millions, including the public purse.
Must confess I had never heard of cisting until I read this piece on the STV site. So, with everyday a school day, I phoned Big Brother, who dissolved into fits of laughter on the phone, I think he’s still laughing.
Anyway, here’s STV’s Insolvency Expert on the King Plan
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/1328531-expert-explains-barriers-to-dave-kings-rangers-oldco-revival-plan/
Celtic’s preliminary results for 2014/15 (just published) show the real cost of no CL income.
Turnover down to 21% to £51M and a loss of £3.95M before tax, despite a surplus in player trading of £6.77M
One positive is that there appears to have been a repayment of £3.17M of outstanding debt/loans (Co-Op?)
With no CL income for the current season the likelihood is for a trading loss once again, although player trading (Van Dijk) should allow the final number to be close to breaking even.
It demonstrates that Celtic are on a knife edge when it comes to investment in the team to get success on the park (CL Group stages), and relying on player trading to balance the books.
The alternative is a significant downsizing in spending and ambition which I can’t see as being particularly attractive to the fans.
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail/12497912.html
scapaflow @ 5.24pm
I think you/she/stv will find it’s “sisting” the winding-up order (not “cisting”).
At least it was when I last practised in the town of Corleone.
You/she/stv just can’t get the staff these days !
Much speculation, on the back of DCK’s comments yesterday, in resurrecting the dead, that it’s a precursor to some big imminent announcement and/or he has some mysterious ulterior motive?
What if it’s the opposite and that simply Mr King is a barking mad congenital liar?
Not so difficult to imagine…
Just a thought from left field.
Is King’s hinting that T’Rangers is a new club without the true traditions of Rangers and separate from the oldco setting things up nicely to avoid a 25pt penalty (remembering Hearts won the championship last year by 21pts) in the event of an insolvency event. IIRC it will be 15 pts if T’Rangers are regarded as a newco thus giving a higher probability of continuing on while securing a championship win or play-off spot.
Don that just adds to the gaiety. Cists in Orkney are pre-historic burials that turn up from time to time, usually when the tractor falls into one
:
Edit
Fortunately spelling is not an issue on the phone, cos the ribbing from you would be nowt compared to the way bro will be ripping my knitting
scapaflow @ 5-59
Interesting Orkney definition of “cists”, as distinct from “sists”.
In Corleone, no-one turns up again from a burial, pre-historic or otherwise, and that includes oldco/sevco/newco et al.
Something to do with a few cuts from shaving, and then being fed to the pigs, I think, but don’t quote me.
the Don Dionisio says:
Touche