Redistribution of Football Income – The Human Dilemma

ByAuldheid

Redistribution of Football Income – The Human Dilemma

“Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only saw a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to European success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs. It’s that old UEFA distribution thingy. Auldheid had a sensible alternative a while back.”

Thanks Danish Pastry for giving Big Pink the opportunity to nudge me (over a coffee I paid for – so how’s that for redistribution of income? 🙂 ) to blog again on the issue of redistribution of UEFA money whilst he was advocating gate sharing as an alternative.

I recall the redistribution debate being discussed on the first TSFM podcast Episode 1-01 of 9th Feb 2014 which can be found here:

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/scottish-football-monitor/id817766886?mt=2

Listening to it again (I used “View in I Tunes”) I heard many of the recent comments on the previous blog being made in that podcast at or around:

  9.58:   The interdependent nature of the business of football. Why it is different from normal business.

10.50:   Celtic/Rangers leaving the Scottish League making it immediately more competitive.

11.30:    Clubs as a community resource (like museums or libraries not run for profit, providing a community service and staying solvent).

12.48:    People have to let go of the notions that they have held about the nature of football and recognise it is a totally interdependent business.

13.55:    Changing the Champions League format to European and Regional Leagues and raising the standard of all, not dropping standards of one to bring about competiveness.

25.50:   A rethink at the top level with NEW thinking about redistribution of income using Champions League money.

27.50:   The human dilemma.

So rather than repeat what was said originally and very well developed in the comments on the Michael Grant article on the previous blog, I thought I would look at what I think is the greatest barrier to change which was the last item above – the human dilemma. *

 

Modern football reminds me of a description of a scene from hell where a visitor looks into one room and sees an emaciated group around a table on which is set a large pot full of stew. They cannot eat because their arms have been set straight at the elbow and elongated so that they cannot get a spoon in their mouths. It is a miserable place. Then the visitor goes upstairs and enters a similar room with occupants similarly handicapped, but where everyone is well fed and contented. “How can this be?” he asks his guide. “Well downstairs all their energies are spent in the nigh impossible task of feeding their insatiable hunger, whilst up here they simply feed each other.”

The analogy is bent a little but not broken in the sense that there are fat and emaciated folk in the football version of the lower room but it is not a healthy place as the fat can themselves become emaciated over time (see Liverpool and even Man Utd) but, generally speaking, self-interest or rather what is perceived as self-interest, holds sway.

Human nature that causes the human dilemma is well reflected in normal business where dog eats dog, then eats the food of the dog it ate if it comes out top dog. Football however cannot exist on a dog eat dog basis because it is interdependent as a business. Dog eating dog is bad for business because over a period of time even the top dog will die of starvation.

Now without abusing the dog metaphor any further and risk attracting dog’s abuse, why is it that something which should be as self-evident as looking after each other is good for business, be such a hard sell?

I said in the podcast around 12.48 that folk need to let go of the notions they have clung on to about football, but why is that so difficult?

Perhaps the resistance to that change can be found, at least in the case of Celtic, who at present are asked in the current debate to make a sacrifice for others, either in the form of gate sharing or giving up some Champion Leagues winnings (if/when they qualify) can be found in the genesis of the club and the memory of that genesis passed from generation to generation.

Everyone knows that the original purpose that Brother Walfrid had for Celtic was to feed the poor in the East End of Glasgow and many of that poor had come from Ireland to be strangers in a strange land.

As a Calton man born in the Gallowgate, as was my grandfather (my dad was found under a cabbage in Well St) I’ve never really identified much with the Irish context of Celtic’s history, although I do recognise its importance to many supporters with Irish family ties, but that dimension adds a further layer to the human dilemma.

Think of it, you form a football club to raise money to feed yourself because you live in an environment where welcome mats are in short supply. That money raised is YOUR money. Your life depends on it as does your family’s as well as your close neighbour (usually in the same close). How prepared are you to share what income you have had to raise yourself with others who you believe have been less than charitable towards you?

Add that folk memory to the human selfish trait of wanting what you spend on football spent on meeting your own desire, which is to make you happy watching an entertaining and successful team on the park and you get an idea of where the resistance to a more equitable sharing comes from and how deep it goes.

I use Celtic here because they are my club and part of my life experience and I have no idea if other clubs experience that added layer of resistance to sharing, if indeed they are in position to share. But if we are ever to be able to introduce gate sharing or what I see as the easier alternative of redistribution of UEFA geld because in not coming direct from supporters pockets it has less of the Celtic folk memory layer to overcome, then those who will be asked to make a sacrifice have to be given the confidence that the aim is not to impoverish them (and the Celtic community memory of poverty and fighting it is as strong today in the form of The Celtic Foundation, The Kano Foundation and the numerous charity events organised by supporters and prominent blogs) but to enrich their neighbours, but doing so in such a way that they enrich themselves. That is the challenge.

In the upper room in the earlier hellish description, the occupiers present the ultimate example of charity in that in feeding each other they feed themselves.

  • PS the podcast covers other issues that some 18 months later might still be of interest.

 

 

About the author

Auldheid author

Celtic fan from Glasgow living mostly in Spain. A contributor to several websites, discussion groups and blogs, and a member of the Resolution 12 Celtic shareholders' group. Committed to sporting integrity, good governance, and the idea that football is interdependent. We all need each other in the game.

1,442 Comments so far

AuldheidPosted on1:27 pm - Sep 15, 2015


Jungle Jim on September 15, 2015 at 11:36 am

I’m truly aghast at what I’ve just stumbled across on the official Daily Record website:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/record-fc-rangers-zombie-sevco-6445015

===========
That must be the most irresponsible piece of claptrap published in the annals of the DR history.

No doubt there will be some balancing counter piece but I want to focus on the wider issue of the damage being done to Scottish society by our media.

Some might remember SFM approached a number of journalists with the evidence kept from LNS.

Not one denied the argument but not one published. More recently other journos have been approached and again there has been no counter argument made because the story stands up, but again no one has published.

The relevance to the deluded article is that it is only possible because our smsm media are sitting on the story of deception.

They in effect enable such an uninformed article to appear because they are keeping the truth from its author.

This is incredibly damaging to our society never mind football by stoking the flames that the same publication depends on to keep their falling sales from hitting the floor.

The DR need to take a long hard look at themselves and ask. Just what exactly is their purpose?

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Kid GlovesPosted on1:32 pm - Sep 15, 2015


Jungle Jim says:
Member:
September 15, 2015 at 11:36 am

I’m truly aghast at what I’ve just stumbled across on the official Daily Record website:
—————————————

I’m pretty much astonished that this piece of garbage is currently the second story on our so-called national newspaper website.

I feel that they are now moving towards mentioning the Sevco name calling so that it can be discredited openly and those, like many of us on here, who indulge in it should be mocked. They know that this isn’t going away (ever) so they are attempting to laugh it away. To discredit and deride those who use words and phrases such as Sevco, new club and liquidation in an attempt to put them alongside those such as conspiracy theorists who should be pitied for their ‘crazy’ notions and ideas.

I worked for that paper for many years and am truly saddened to see what has become of it. Its pathetic slide into irrelevance has cost many good people their jobs while the inept management have made bad call after bad call. Trying to do everything possible to cling on to the many Rangers fans who bought the paper has just alienated the (larger) non-Rangers readership.

Daily Record circulation has plummeted from around 700,000 per day to around 180,000 in little more than a decade and publishing nonsense like this is likely only to accelerate the decline.

I really am appalled.

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MoreCelticParanoiaPosted on2:08 pm - Sep 15, 2015


jimbo says:
Member:

September 15, 2015 at 1:19 pm

Jungle Jim et. al.

The article in the DR is their on line blog which appears occasionally. It is not written by any of their staff but a guest fan (blogger). They are given much more freedom to let rip. I have seen one’s by Celtic writers with much the same type of tone.
____________________________________

You’re completely spot on, but for me it doesn’t deflect from the fact that a national newspaper is turning over it’s site to have this kind of bile published under it’s corporate banner and the public access, exposure and kudos (don’t laugh) which that brings.

As Auldhied says, what the hell are they trying to achieve?

Will they not rest until someone is stabbed in the street?

Have to say, I love that the writer’s point is basically “mind your own business and look after your own club” (nothing to see here)….articulated by pointing out all the things he thinks are wrong Celtic!

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scapaflowPosted on3:13 pm - Sep 15, 2015


MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member:
September 15, 2015 at 2:08 pm

The print media is in decline, possibly terminal decline. To begin with they simply ignored social media, in the hope that it was a fad, would go away and they would be returned to their rightful place. Hasn’t happened, instead more & more people now see social media as their main source for “news”. This is not necessarily a good thing – see conformation bias.

So now the print media are trying to embrace it, that they are often going to the extremes of social media, the same extremes that they spend so much ink railing against, is just proof that they still haven’t a fecking clue about how to respond to this media revolution.

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jimboPosted on3:43 pm - Sep 15, 2015


MoreCelticParanoia,

Can’t really disagree with you it is being published under their corporate banner and their are plenty of other opportunities in the blogosphere for such views to be made known.

I think Scapaflow is right, it’s there pathetic attempt to keep a foot in both camps.

Oh for the days when the Record & Sunday Mail were campaigning, left wing papers with real journalists. They weren’t always perfect but compared to where they are now Willie Hamilton will be turning in his grave.

The followed The Sun, Murdoch has a lot to answer for.

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tayredPosted on4:21 pm - Sep 15, 2015


jimbo says:
Member:
September 15, 2015 at 3:44 pm
MoreCelticParanoia,

(Oops not sure how I posted that twice!)
____________________________________________________________________________
Somewhat ironic when accusing the SMSM journalists of not being able to use their keyboards properly! 😛 😛

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on4:31 pm - Sep 15, 2015


jimbo says:
Member:
September 15, 2015 at 3:44 pm
MoreCelticParanoia,

Can’t really disagree with you it is being published under their corporate banner and their are plenty of other opportunities in the blogosphere for such views to be made known.

I think Scapaflow is right, it’s there pathetic attempt to keep a foot in both camps.
================================================

Actually, it’s click-bait & it’s obviously worked. Controversy means ker-ching for the DR.

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jimboPosted on4:43 pm - Sep 15, 2015


Tayred, you are right! 😛 😛 :slamb:

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Kid GlovesPosted on6:42 pm - Sep 15, 2015


Jingso.Jimsie says: Begin VCard Customisation…
Member: End VCard Customisation
September 15, 2015 at 4:31 pm

================================================
Actually, it’s click-bait & it’s obviously worked. Controversy means ker-ching for the DR.

—————————–

As the mods on here will know the revenue raised from a couple of thousand clicks is almost meaningless, certainly to a organisation the size of the Daily Record. To compromise your integrity for a few quid is utter madness.

Quite simply the management at Central Quay are completely clueless and out of their depth. The rise of the internet and social media didn’t happen overnight. 20 years ago you could see what was going to happen.

They had proper journalists back then so they had valuable content and content is king. Now they buy in generic content, have no good local journalists and get pages typeset in India.

Guys like Keith Jackson should enjoy it while it lasts. This will not end well for them.

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valentinesclownPosted on7:20 pm - Sep 15, 2015


I always used to equate the DR to the Beano as it was good for a laugh. I retract that as from now. The Beano is full of harmless fun were as the DR is far from harmless and is far from funny. Disgrace as a paper (cannot call it a news paper) and when the time comes for it’s demise I then will laugh as I used to when reading the Beano.

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HomunculusPosted on7:47 pm - Sep 15, 2015


bfbpuzzled says:
Member:
September 15, 2015 at 12:46 pm

I managed to read that only having to look three things up on the interweb.

I did get the references to Scientology and Kurt Vonnegut though.

Oh and, I agree with every word you said.

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macfurglyPosted on9:40 pm - Sep 15, 2015


parttimearab,you have PM.

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parttimearabPosted on10:04 pm - Sep 15, 2015


macfurgly says:
September 15, 2015 at 9:40 pm
parttimearab,you have PM
=============================
Ta, reply sent.

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Cluster OnePosted on10:12 pm - Sep 15, 2015


This may not be the best way to word this. So if anyone can get where i am coming from and word it better please do.

So king jets in at the clubs expence, to end Ally’s contract 3 months early?
But from what i hear Ally has a job lined up and may want his contract terminated early…..maybe?
king is also at the same time told by BDO he will get no money.
king then tells the fans in a roundabout way it is not really rangers,then jets back out.

Now what WAS the real reason he jetted in? Did king make the first move towards Ally to come to an agreement on his contract just 3 months, yes just 3 months short of it ending, or did Ally make the contact for king to jet back and sign any release forms so he could take the job. And the un-liquidation was not the speech he had planed because the BDO result was not in his favour

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AuldheidPosted on10:14 pm - Sep 15, 2015


Here is the rebuff to the Ibrox Blogger on the same DR site.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/record-fc-celtic-norwegian-kenny-6447445#sthash.Oh4CWAI5.dpuf

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GeordieJagPosted on10:44 pm - Sep 15, 2015


Just catching up from yesterday.

John Clark says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:41 pm

Braiden doesn’t quote any sources for his piece? Why is what presumably is not a very recent matter appearing now?
Mischief-making?
_________
John Clark says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:13 pm
Gery Braiden of the Herald has provided me with the UEFA source for his piece reports.It’s a six-monthly digest of disciplinary. The salient pages are pages 52 and 53 or thereabouts, but you should read all the report about Ajax’s appeal and cross-appeal.
Braiden says the report has just recently been published.
_________
UEFA’s Disciplinary Cases website states “Every six months the leading cases passed by the Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Body and all the decisions taken by the Appeals Body will be published here.” In line with this, the July-December 2014 and Jan-July 2015 decision documents have already been posted so I’d take an educated guess that the Jan-June 2014 decision doc was openly published more than a year ago.

Returning to JC’s question, why are the MSM picking this up now and equally, why have they ignored it up to now?

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on11:53 pm - Sep 15, 2015


16 Votes
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Auldheid says:
September 15, 2015 at 1:27 pm
Jungle Jim on September 15, 2015 at 11:36 am

I’m truly aghast at what I’ve just stumbled across on the official Daily Record website:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/record-fc-rangers-zombie-sevco-6445015

===========

The article is satire shurely?
Could we get warren Mitchell (or an impressionist thereof) to read it aloud interspersed with a few “it stands to reason don’t it!”s thrown in for full Alf Garnett comic effect, while his daughter rolls his eyes and ‘scouse git’ son in law tries vainly to inject some sanity into the tirade.
Becomes entertaining in this context! I can only assume this is what was intended.
We could film this as a promotional trailer / viral internet ad for the site?
Ending with the line… ” just because informed sources like Alf don’t need TSFM.

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Big PinkPosted on3:57 am - Sep 16, 2015


There is a very long story why the site has been all over the place tonight. Some planned changes had to be rushed.
I will explain later today. Now I am off to bed.

Ratings and other stuff will be back later.

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Cygnus X2Posted on7:06 am - Sep 16, 2015


The Scotsman refers to Dave King as ‘gnomic’ in this article.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/mark-warburton-won-t-risk-rangers-squad-unity-1-3887660

Apparently gnomic means that you are prone to aphorism. Apparently aphorisms are tersely worded statements of fact.

I can therefore conclude that Andrew Smith does not know the meaning of the word gnomic. It seems to me that statements from Dave King are the polar opposite of ‘tersely worded fact’.

From the context it appears that Andrew Smith may have been trying to imply that Dave King is a liar, without actually using the word used the the judge in South Africa, or am I reading it wrong?

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motor redPosted on7:37 am - Sep 16, 2015


laughing my socks off at the record piece.
throwing darts all day at the glib and shameless one,lol, eh, sorry to tell you since you obviously look in ,if some are throwing darts the bulls eye always remains the authorities of the game, everything else is just a cabaret which has a life of its own. the piece also read like a catholic conspiracy, again all club fans are united on the same issue. this site remains open to any opinion and argument so if any of the 5way fans looking in including mr jackson,please apply your mighty logic ,or why not ask to come along to a podcast and put us straight[,no laughing at the back]. its plainly obvious this site has got to them and its eating them up something terrible. thankfully we will attract more friends in the process,my resolve has just found another level and am sure others just feel the same, DR you just made my day.
i smell victory and it smells like mr jackson needs to change his pad and collect his discarded his toys

imagine the fun magnas magnasson could have had on the show Mastermind with someone like jackson or spiers answering the questions on liquidation etc.

.popcorn and coke never tasted so good.

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neepheidPosted on10:01 am - Sep 16, 2015


Today’s latest from Level 5- brought to you by the Daily Record-

“Ronald de Boer: NO-ONE is interested in Celtic without the Old Firm rivalry in Scotland’s top flight”

RONALD DE BOER claims Dutch fans don’t care about Celtic any more because Scotland’s top flight is a one-horse race without Rangers.

The Ibrox legend lit the blue touch paper as Ronny Deila’s men prepare to fly out of Glasgow this morning to face Ajax, another of his old sides, in the Europa League tomorrow.

The full article can be found on the Record website. I won’t post links to the Record any more.

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tayredPosted on10:08 am - Sep 16, 2015


neepheid 16th September 2015 at 10:01 am #
Today’s latest from Level 5- brought to you by the Daily Record-

“Ronald de Boer: NO-ONE is interested in Celtic without the Old Firm rivalry in Scotland’s top flight”

RONALD DE BOER claims Dutch fans don’t care about Celtic any more because Scotland’s top flight is a one-horse race without Rangers.
_____________________________________
Did Dutch fans care about Celtic before!? I’ve known many a Dutchman, never heard any interest in Scottish football from any of them!

I’m a “Scottish” fan and I couldn’t care less about PSV Eindhoven or Ajax. Another piece of utter non-news. Do people really pay money to read this guff???

Besides, its not quite a one-horse race! We are only 5 points in front 😉

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Danish PastryPosted on10:16 am - Sep 16, 2015


Hey, nice wee layout tweak. I felt all Scottishy, well, more than usual 🙂

Bravo.

A shout for the latest Scotzine podcast. Apart from the other stuff, at about 67min in there’s a discussion of DK’s utterances to the press. Good stuff.

http://www.scotzine.com/2015/09/the-final-whistle-aberdeen-on-cloud-nine/

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Big PinkPosted on10:26 am - Sep 16, 2015


After our wee DoS episode last week, we applied a few extra plugins to the WP installation. Unfortunately (we think) that this caused a further problem internaly.
We have been working on a revamp of the site, but have had to move the timescale up so the functionality we lost yesterday was fixed.

Site is still a work in progress, but the major overhaul is still coming.

Any observations about technical or user problems, let us know right away.

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rabtdogPosted on12:57 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Cygnus
Gnomic means ‘talking in short pithy maxims or aphorisms’ and/or ‘difficult to understand because ambiguous or enigmatic’. It need not entail facts. So if King comes to the UK and talks inscrutable wibble in short sentences, it’s fine to describe him as gnomic.

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cowanpetePosted on12:57 pm - Sep 16, 2015


I assume the colour changes and other changes to the site are temporary.

That being said the “SFM” logo – does it have to be green and blue? I’m a hibby so I am fond of green but I would prefer that we used a combination of colours a bit less *cough* old-firm-y.

Football – I agree with the poster who intimated that it is irrelevant whether folk from another country care about our league or the teams in our league.

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rabtdogPosted on1:02 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Incidentally, as per the Daily Record, one of Private Eye’s occasional correspondents isn’t called Phil Space for nothing.

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MoreCelticParanoiaPosted on1:29 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Auldheid15th September 2015 at 10:14 pm#

Here is the rebuff to the Ibrox Blogger on the same DR site.
_______________________________

I’d sooner Celtic fans/bloggers simply ignored the DR and let it wallow in its own bile.

Re their R De Boer effort today, I just love the way they had to emphasise the word ‘NO-ONE’ as if we’d all somehow miss it if it wasn’t in caps.

It’ll not be long till NO-ONE is buying the DR at this rate and will be unable to sustain the handsome wages it currently remunerates its staff with.

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jimboPosted on1:33 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Nothing to say today, a bit bored in fact. Wish Rangers would do something daft again to get everyone talking.

Oh Big Pink, just noticed, the smileys are missing.

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rabtdogPosted on2:14 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Aberdeen have set a new club record (112 years, fact fans) by taking max points from their first seven league games. You could talk about that? Or an attendance of over 13k for a Tues night game v Hamilton when the UCL was on the telly?

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Cygnus X2Posted on2:30 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Here is a link to UK newspaper circulations for anyone concerned what the Daily Record says about anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation#Circulations_2010_to_present

The Daily Record now sells just over half as many copies as the Caravan Club Magazine and probably has less than half the influence. At least the Caravan Club Magazine is likely to be useful for members of the Caravan Club.

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ProhibbyPosted on2:52 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Cygnus X2 16th September 2015 at 7:06 am #
The Scotsman refers to Dave King as ‘gnomic’ in this article.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/mark-warburton-won-t-risk-rangers-squad-unity-1-3887660

Apparently gnomic means that you are prone to aphorism. Apparently aphorisms are tersely worded statements of fact.

I can therefore conclude that Andrew Smith does not know the meaning of the word gnomic. It seems to me that statements from Dave King are the polar opposite of ‘tersely worded fact’.

From the context it appears that Andrew Smith may have been trying to imply that Dave King is a liar, without actually using the word used the the judge in South Africa, or am I reading it wrong?

……………..

Probably Smith was meaning to use ‘gnomish’. King is, after all, a high-finance wheeler and dealer, just like the Gnomes of Zurich. The ‘Gnome of Jo’burg’ has a nice sound to it – or even ‘Gnorum Rex’, don’t you think?

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Bayview GoldPosted on2:54 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Cygnus X2 16th September 2015 at 2:30 pm
———————————————————-

And if you extrapolate a nice fitting linear regression of their circulation over the last 20 years, you will find we only have to wait just over 7 years until they sell 0 copies.

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rabtdogPosted on2:59 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Oh for goodness sake. The journalist was saying, ‘King is trying to sound wise and authoritative but he’s talking b0ll0cks.’ It was legit to use ‘gnomic’ and the writer knows exactly what it means

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rabtdogPosted on3:04 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Cygnus, the Record appears Mon-Sat all year round. The caravan mag appears 12 times a year. In aggregate, which sells more copies, has more ad revenue, a higher readership figure and bigger turnover?
Yes the Record’s in decline. No, it doesn’t have ‘half the influence’ of a caravan club mag.

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Bill1903Posted on3:11 pm - Sep 16, 2015


http://www.copfs.gov.uk/media-site/media-releases/1140-indictments-served-in-rangers-case

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smartie1947Posted on3:22 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Sorry Bill 1903

I misread your post and thought there had been 1140 separate indictments served in the Rangers case.

Now that might have been a genuine world record !!!!!!!.

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zerotolerance1903Posted on3:23 pm - Sep 16, 2015


RONALD DE BOER claims Dutch fans don’t care about Celtic any more because Scotland’s top flight is a one-horse race without Rangers.
_______________________________________

I think old Ron might be a bit premature there. It’s early in the season and we’re only 5 points ahead, I still think Celtic will come back into it.

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grecian urnPosted on3:25 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Can we please do something about the colours on the blog, like lots of other males, I am colour blind and find it difficult to read 🙁

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zerotolerance1903Posted on3:25 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Aberdeen have set a new club record (112 years, fact fans) by taking max points from their first seven league games. You could talk about that? Or an attendance of over 13k for a Tues night game v Hamilton when the UCL was on the telly?
_________________________________

Indeed. And where the visiting team’s support didn’t number more than a coach load.

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ProhibbyPosted on4:04 pm - Sep 16, 2015


rabtdog 16th September 2015 at 2:59 pm

Sorry Rabtdog, my sarcasm wasn’t as evident or witty as I had hoped!

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jimboPosted on4:30 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Aberdeen posters, I’m happy for you guys as fans that you have something to go out and watch last season & this one (so far). I even forgive you that your team beat us last Saturday! Make the most of it!

But seriously, do you not think it insulting that the press have the impression that if Rangers are back up next season you will be also rans?

Big Pink this is very good, my posts are up in 5 mins now instead of a half hour. Well done.

Now what about the smileys?

Smileys will be back soon, but your half hour post lag isn’t a server thing. More than likely a caching problem. Your post appeared quickly because the site has moved on the server to a new location, so your browser wouldn’t use cached pages. Turn off caching in your browser, and half hour delays should be a thing of the past.
BP

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zerotolerance1903Posted on4:46 pm - Sep 16, 2015


@jimbo, short answer is yes.

Rangers* have the twin challenge of getting out of the Championship and remaining in business until next season to navigate before they’re even in the Premier League.

They might look favourites to win the League right now but their squad is really thin, a couple of key injuries and they may struggle to maintain their current position. Add the potential for an insolvency event and accompanying points deduction and those challenges are not yet certain to be overcome.

Notwithstanding that IF they were to go up for their first season in the premier I believe that they would be no better than a mid-table side without significant investment and more favourable loanees. They will have to navigate the challenge of Inverness, St Johnstone and Hamilton before they even thinking about challenging Aberdeen, Celtic and whoever else has kicked on next season.

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jimboPosted on4:55 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Zerotolerance1903, couldn’t agree more, they face serious challenges on & off the pitch. What a farce, DK saying they need at least 5 more players to challenge next year and the manager now reckons he doesn’t want to use any of Dave’s money (?) in January. In case it upsets the dressing room. Aye right!

Very confusing. (smiley)

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redlichtiePosted on6:27 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Parttimearab – you have a PM.

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bfbpuzzledPosted on6:30 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Anent gnomic, it suggests that the gnomic one knows stuff others do not and is perhaps a bit mystical. This all fits in with the gnostic zeitgeist.

The most populist proponent of that is Dan Brown of ludicrous novel fame, perhaps the warchest is in the Roslyn Chapel-it is as likely to be there as anywhere else.

I can see it now; The Dave King Code where a trail of clues is followed by a brave journal but disappears up his own fundamentals somewhere midway between South Africa and Ibrox- strangely that might be near enough the Holy Land, it is all a big Green conspiracy I tell yees!

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HomunculusPosted on6:40 pm - Sep 16, 2015


bfbpuzzled 16th September 2015 at 6:30 pm

To be fair to Dan Brown, his novels are works of fiction. He has never claimed otherwise. The fact that others (I’m not including you in that) seem to equate them with the ludicrous Holy Blood and Holy Grail (which the authors claimed as historical fact) is really their issue rather than his. I say that being someone who has never read word one of his books. I’ll wait till the fillums come out.

If King were to admit what he was saying was fiction based on nonsensical “history” put forward as fact I could see the analogy.

In other news, it’s interesting that COPFS have now indicted various people, including the absent Mr Ahmad. As I understand it that starts the 12 month clock for the actual Court case to start. Albeit there may be various diets prior to that. Including the one in mid October.

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redlichtiePosted on6:48 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Preliminary hearing on 16 October……

“Crown details charges against ex-Rangers chiefs Craig Whyte and Charles Green

The Crown Office has announced details of charges against former Rangers owner Craig Whyte, ex-chief executive Charles Green and five other men.

Indictments have been served alleging charges they will face when the case comes to the High Court next month.

They include fraud, conspiracy to defraud, attempting to pervert the course of justice and being involved in organised crime.

The men are due to appear for a preliminary hearing on 16 October.

Craig Whyte and Charles Green first appeared in court last month after an investigation into the alleged fraudulent acquisition of the club in 2012.

Mr Whyte bought Rangers from Sir David Murray in 2011 for a nominal sum of £1 but it went into administration the following year.

A consortium led by Charles Green later bought Rangers’ assets.

Indictments have been served against David Whitehouse, Paul Clark and David Grier, who were all working for administrators Duff and Phelps at the time.

Also facing charges are Gary Withey, who worked for a law firm involved in the purchase of Rangers by Craig Whyte, and Imran Ahmad, a former Rangers commercial director. ”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34272273

Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.

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fishnishPosted on6:57 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Aye, well….
I can’t see how the final of those charges could be made to stick
“They include fraud, conspiracy to defraud, attempting to pervert the course of justice and being involved in organised crime.”

Organised? Brian Rix could never have starred in anything so literally farcical as what we’ve been watching these years, now…
His plays and performances were strictly planned, wonderfully organised and perfectly executed, but there were never so many disparate characters falling in and out of the action (and with each other), mouthing such incredibly fatuous lines and all failing to reach whatever they professed their goals to be.

This one will run and run.

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HomunculusPosted on7:42 pm - Sep 16, 2015


The section and act they will be using is very interesting, in that the thing the person is accused of doing does not actually have to be an offence for it to fall foul of this section. If it forms part of a greater organised crime

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2010/13/section/28

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jimboPosted on8:25 pm - Sep 16, 2015


I would like to know how the mods got hold of that picture of me, from a few years ago, on the home page?

Oh thank goodness the smileys are back. (except you can’t add one in the edit mode) still musn’t complain. grr!

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upthehoopsPosted on8:28 pm - Sep 16, 2015


One for our legal eagles.

The charges are out now in the Rangers case. Despite a trial not even happening yet there can be no doubt that Imran Ahmad’s point about social media and presumptions of guilt have some substance. Not all areas of social media of course but certainly significant areas. So my question is how does the legal system protect the rights of the defendants to have a fair trial? Good luck with anyone selecting a jury for this.

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jimboPosted on8:32 pm - Sep 16, 2015


😆

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jimboPosted on8:38 pm - Sep 16, 2015


UTH, I think the jury folk are vetted and questioned about their knowledge of the case and participants. After that, there is an element of trust. otherwise you would never be able to get a jury together!

If it was me I would listen to the evidence in front of me in the courtroom. I think most people would do the same.

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upthehoopsPosted on8:55 pm - Sep 16, 2015


jimbo 16th September 2015 at 8:38 pm #
UTH, I think the jury folk are vetted and questioned about their knowledge of the case and participants. After that, there is an element of trust. otherwise you would never be able to get a jury together!

If it was me I would listen to the evidence in front of me in the courtroom. I think most people would do the same.
======================

I remember after the Neil Lennon trial when a jury found a man not guilty of assault despite it happening live on TV the late Paul McBride pointed out Scottish juries are not vetted, do not have to be able to read and write, and can be full of prejudices.

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scottcPosted on8:59 pm - Sep 16, 2015


jimbo 16th September 2015 at 8:25 pm #
I would like to know how the mods got hold of that picture of me, from a few years ago, on the home page?

Oh thank goodness the smileys are back. (except you can’t add one in the edit mode) still musn’t complain. grr!

~~~~~~~~~~

So are the thumbs though. 🙁

PS. Not fond of the new look. It’s clean but … maybe it will grow on me.

PPS Blockquote not working yet

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TheClumpanyPosted on9:16 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Good Evening.

Make of it what you will, but this has appeared on the Sons of Stuth Facebook page…

“Sources claim HMRC have lost the latest appeal and will make a move to have it heard again at the Supreme Court.
I’ve no doubts about sources information being accurate.”

https://m.facebook.com/SonsOfStruth/posts/1686824301548691

Enjoy the rest of the evening!

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HomunculusPosted on9:18 pm - Sep 16, 2015


upthehoops 16th September 2015 at 8:28 pm

A cynic may suggest that is exactly why he said what he said, to prejudice any chance of a fair trial and make a prosecution that much more difficult.

To put an “unfair trial” appeal in place before any trial was even started.

I couldn’t possibly comment.

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Cluster OnePosted on9:19 pm - Sep 16, 2015


A bit off topic……………I like the View Comment. and the background picture. Reminds of a picture i took last year just before the yes/No vote

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Matty RothPosted on9:20 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Cygnus X2 16th September 2015 at 2:30 pm #

Here is a link to UK newspaper circulations for anyone concerned what the Daily Record says about anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation#Circulations_2010_to_present

The Daily Record now sells just over half as many copies as the Caravan Club Magazine and probably has less than half the influence. At least the Caravan Club Magazine is likely to be useful for members of the Caravan Club.

======================================

If only that were true, but the influence of the DR is all too present within certain sections of our society and occasionally beyond that particular strand and into wider Scottish society.

If you are unsure about this consider the article linked below.

http://www.thenational.scot/news/the-con-only-9-of-scots-believe-the-vow-has-been-kept.7649

Ignoring the political arguments in the article, it is fairly unequivocal that the Daily Record actually came up with the whole “The Vow” concept and then put it to the politicians rather than the politicians giving the DR this as some sort of exclusive.

That being the case some people would argue that the DR swung the referendum and the future of our country rather a lot….

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The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty?Posted on9:21 pm - Sep 16, 2015


The BBC link to the indictments ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34272273 ) lists “being involved in organised crime” as one of the charges, whereas the COPFS media release ( http://www.copfs.gov.uk/media-site/media-releases/1140-indictments-served-in-rangers-case) refers only to “… statutory offences under the Companies Act 2006 and the Criminal Justice and Licencing (Scotland) Act 2010).

I could understand the difference if it was vice-versa, and the BBC was trying to conceal the organised crime charge by referring only to the statutes within which, I presume, organised crime is included (the best indicator of future behaviour being, some would argue, past behaviour) while COPFS gave the detail.

Have the BBC, uncharacteristically, done some digging, or have they just made up the bit about organised crime?

Very strange, IMO.

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The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty?Posted on9:22 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Homunculus 16th September 2015 at 7:42 pm #

Genuine question: How do you know which section and act they will be using?

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HomunculusPosted on9:33 pm - Sep 16, 2015


The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty? 16th September 2015 at 9:22 pm #

Amongst other things

http://m.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13645273.Crown_Office_makes_Twitter_warning_over_comments_on_Rangers_court_case/?ref=mr&lp=1

Clark, from Surrey, is accused of an offence under Section 28 of the Criminal Justice Licensing Act 2010 which covers serious organised crime.

==============================

It was specifically brought in to cover serious and organised crime. Including when people did things which in and of themselves were not illegal, however if an agreement was entered into when that thing facilitated serious and organised crime then the person was guilty of the offence.

I can’t think of anything in Scotland which achieves the same specific end. Happy to be corrected if anyone else can.

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southstandcharliePosted on9:56 pm - Sep 16, 2015


I was just reading again Dave King’s Q&A session and his answers over his funding don’t quite sit right with me. Here are extracts from the first two questions.

Q: CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE CLUB’S CURRENT FUNDING?

DK: “There are already the loans of over £4million put in by myself and the Three Bears, which was for working capital and financing from the end of last season to the beginning of this season.”

Q: THE INITIAL LOAN YOU PUT IN AFTER BECOMING CHAIRMAN WAS £1.5M?

DK: “They had already put in £1.75million and then put in another £750,000 so it is about £4million which has been absolutely perfect to see us through to the start of season and the season ticket cash coming in.”

He is directly asked if his loan was £1.5m but it seems to me that, while his answer makes it appear he has loaned circa £1.5m, he actually avoids directly answering the question. He is very precise about the 3 bears £1.75m and £750k, but in the first answer he says there are total loans of “over” £4m and in the second answer that it is “about” £4m. Nowhere does he actually say he has loaned the difference or exactly how much.
Given his track record, I smell a very large rat.

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Long Time LurkerPosted on10:00 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Sons of Struth, on their Facebook page (I’m not a follower) claim that HMRC have lost their appeal to the Court of Session, re RFC(IL) use of EBT.

I cannot see any other confirmation of this claim.

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Bill1903Posted on10:14 pm - Sep 16, 2015


The sons of struth info is believable as they are very close to the current board and have probably been tipped the wink.

Supreme Court for HMRC I would imagine

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Cluster OnePosted on10:28 pm - Sep 16, 2015


Bill1903 16th September 2015 at 10:14 pm #
The sons of struth info is believable as they are very close to the current board and have probably been tipped the wink.

Supreme Court for HMRC I would imagine

——————
Or have been given “The Nod” 🙂

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easyJamboPosted on11:25 pm - Sep 16, 2015


upthehoops 16th September 2015 at 8:55 pm #

I remember after the Neil Lennon trial when a jury found a man not guilty of assault despite it happening live on TV the late Paul McBride pointed out Scottish juries are not vetted, do not have to be able to read and write, and can be full of prejudices.
==============================
I fully sympathise with your frustration at the outcome of John Wilson’s trial, however I do think that justice was ultimately done.

Your memory of the finer details about his trial is incorrect. He wasn’t found “not guilty” of “assault”. He wasn’t even tried for a common assault (although he offered a guilty plea bargain on that charge).

The Crown insisted that he be tried on the more serious change of “assault aggravated by religious prejudice, but was actually found “not proven” on that charge.

In the end he was only found guilty of a breach of the peace, for which he received a custodial sentence of eight and a half months, having bee remanded in custody since the original offence.

Therefore, he received what might be considered an appropriate sentence for his “crime”, despite the fact that the only thing he was found guilty of was what is normally a low level offence.

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BawsmanPosted on11:42 pm - Sep 16, 2015


“despite the fact that the only thing he was found guilty of was what is normally a low level offence.”

I actually find that comment pretty offensive, then again, it’s that kind of institutionally sectarian mindset that prevails in the most bigoted wee country in the world. Why was it deemed a low level offence?

You know, I know, and the rest of the world knows, what “the offence” was, in Scotland, Lennon was simply asking for it because, well, because he just was, right?

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The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty?Posted on12:11 am - Sep 17, 2015


Homunculus 16th September 2015 at 9:33 pm #

The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty? 16th September 2015 at 9:22 pm #

Amongst other things

http://m.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13645273.Crown_Office_makes_Twitter_warning_over_comments_on_Rangers_court_case/?ref=mr&lp=1

Clark, from Surrey, is accused of an offence under Section 28 of the Criminal Justice Licensing Act 2010 which covers serious organised crime.

==============================

It was specifically brought in to cover serious and organised crime. Including when people did things which in and of themselves were not illegal, however if an agreement was entered into when that thing facilitated serious and organised crime then the person was guilty of the offence.

I can’t think of anything in Scotland which achieves the same specific end. Happy to be corrected if anyone else can.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Thank you, Homunculus. I appreciate the response.

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Big PinkPosted on12:44 am - Sep 17, 2015


Long Time Lurker 16th September 2015 at 10:00 pm

Sons of Struth, on their Facebook page (I’m not a follower) claim that HMRC have lost their appeal to the Court of Session, re RFC(IL) use of EBT.

I cannot see any other confirmation of this claim.
LTL

The word has been on the street so to speak since yesterday afternoon. Trouble is that all the gossip is possibly coming from the same source, so it’s not altogether clear how reliable it is.

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easyJamboPosted on1:00 am - Sep 17, 2015


Bawsman 16th September 2015 at 11:42 pm #

“despite the fact that the only thing he was found guilty of was what is normally a low level offence.”

I actually find that comment pretty offensive, then again, it’s that kind of institutionally sectarian mindset that prevails in the most bigoted wee country in the world. Why was it deemed a low level offence?

You know, I know, and the rest of the world knows, what “the offence” was, in Scotland, Lennon was simply asking for it because, well, because he just was, right?
========================
I think that you missed the point of my post. Breach of the Peace is a low level offence that would normally result in a fine at worst.

Wilson was only found guilty of a breach of the peace for running on the park, yet he was jailed.

How many other people have been jailed for running on the park or a breach of the peace in other circumstances.

In my view Wilson received an appropriate sentence for the totality of what he did (including the assault). I suspect the judge who sentenced Wilson did likewise.

What doesn’t receive the same level of coverage as Lennon being assaulted while he was doing his job, was that a Steward that night was punched by a Celtic fan (he was just doing his job too). The offender, James Addison, received a £1,000 fine, and didn’t even get a football banning order.

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/276172-celtic-fan-who-attacked-steward-at-tynecastle-during-poisonous-game-fined/

I’m sorry, but I don’t see where anything in my previous post was sectarian in the slightest.

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RayCharlezPosted on1:30 am - Sep 17, 2015


EasyJambo,

I don’t see anything sectarian in your post either.

Did the jury require corroboration to find Wilson guilty of the religious prejudice element of the charge?

The evidence of Tynecastle Security Manager Peter Croy was clear. Cory stated Wilson said: “Lennon, you F****** b******.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14718038

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AuldheidPosted on3:04 am - Sep 17, 2015


Good read on the purpose of Res12 . I hope supporters of all clubs share its aim.

Rangers & The UEFA License. Cock-Up or Conspiracy

http://celticunderground.net/rangers-the-uefa-license-cock-up-or-conspiracy/

Personally I think the SFA cocked up the conspiracy.

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Ex LudoPosted on4:35 am - Sep 17, 2015


For what it’s worth Breach of the Peace is a crime at common law in Scotland and therefore not a minor offence as anyone found guilty could face an unlimited fine and or a long custodial sentence or both depending on the circumstances of the case. Such a wide ranging non specific crime has attracted a lot of criticism in European legal circles.

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