Reflections on Goalposts

ByDanish Pastry

Reflections on Goalposts

A recent autumn storm caused the destruction of the metal goal fame in our garden. The small goal with the weather-beaten net had fallen into disuse. But I liked it seeing it there on the grass. I suppose I half-expected, half-hoped, it would be used again. Once, it was a father and son thing and had been constructed carefully from a nice set of plans. At the time, it impressed both son and daughter no end. But that was then, this was now.

One of our trees, blown over by the recent high winds, caused the goal frame’s final demise. As I unscrewed the twisted metal I thought of the hours of innocent fun it had given us. It had been the scene of many goals and not a few great saves. My son, who is soon off to uni, smiled thoughtfully as I mentioned that this was the end of the ‘goalposts of childhood’. Perhaps he knew what I meant.

My own childhood goalposts had been ‘doon the back’. Drawn with chalk on the red brick of the ‘sausage wall’ at one end, and on part of the ‘wash hoose’ at the other. Many a league, Cup and international match was played out between those goals on the Dennistoun dirt. We once put on a parallel version of a historic England v Scotland match while the real match was being played at Wembley. Jim Mone sitting on one of the dykes had a transister radio to his ear. As we played our match he chalked up live score updates on the wall — our Twitter and FaceBook anno 1967. What a day.

We did use a pile of jackets up on the old Dennistoun cricket pitch, but only rarely. Mostly, we played on the red gravel surface at the Finlay Drive entrance. That pitch was fitted with real goalposts — like the ones they had at Hampden. Or so we imagined.

These sentimental memories of receding years accompanied my removal of the ruined metal goal frame. But, as you can imagine, it seemed an almost symbolic act. For fans of Scottish football the ‘goalposts’ that once defined the game of our football childhoods — have not only been moved, they’ve been been twisted and mis-shapen out of all recognition.

The past decades have seen a fundamental change in the way our game is run and governed, at home and abroad. Money is now king and sporting consideration is a luxury we sometimes have to put to one side — or at least, so we’re told.

At the risk of stating the obvious, sport, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be based on clearly defined rules and principles. These rules must be applied equally to all the participants, they are certainly not optional extras. However, to misquote and paraphrase George Orwell, ‘all teams are equal, but some teams are more equal than others’ — at least, when it comes to Scottish football.

The efforts by the SFA to re-interpret rules to fit the unfortunate circumstances surrounding the demise of Rangers FC in 2012 have left most of us scratching our heads. Much of the Scottish media has backed up the SFA’s efforts, something which has added to the general confusion and chaos. In fact, it’s become clear that the death of Rangers, as we knew them, has been such a traumatic event that it must be denied. The authorities and media seem to have been so besotted with one club that its loss is out of the question. And so, it’s been gifted a bizarre kind of immunity from liquidation and death that implies its on-going existence, long after it drew it’s final breath.

This situation has opened the door to a legion of businessmen on the make. They have been allowed to perpetuate the myth, with SFA blessing, that they ‘saved’ Rangers. And their unwavering message is, that they can only succeed if fans keep giving them their hard-earned cash. To those outside the blue bubble it looks like a huge con trick. If the only source of real money in football is the fans, then the Ibrox faithful have been royally fleeced.

How different it could have been if the former club had been allowed a dignified end. A year out of the game would probably have allowed fans to restart a newco of their own. They could have applied for entry into the professional leagues along with the other clubs waiting in line. Chances are they would have been given special dispensation, and walked straight into the bottom tier. Of course, they would have claimed to be the continuation of the spirit of the previous entity — but would anyone have argued against that? How different it could have been if the rules governing the game had been respected. The SFA may even have kept their dignity intact and the press not felt obliged to print half-truths, falsehoods and lies.

You’ve got to wonder why Dunfermline and Hearts fought so desperately to avoid liquidation. After all, the Scottish football authorities now seem intent on convincing us that liquidation has little or no effect on a football club. Even past sins, such as wrongly-registered players are as naught — if, at the time, they were thought to have been registered correctly. By this logic, we have to ask: if a ‘company’ running a ‘club’ bribes a referee, will retrospective action will be taken against the ‘club’. The players and the club, after all, will have done nothing wrong. And since the referee was not known to have been bribed, and not struck off, he was qualified to referee the match in question, at the time. Using the SFA thought process, the result would probably be allowed to stand. Personally, I’m not sure I follow SFA logic. They’ve ‘moved the goalposts’, and (you saw it coming) bent them into an unrecognisable shape.

Which brings me back to our garden. The old metal goal frame is waiting to be driven down to the local re-cycling centre. The twisted metal and worn-out net are useless. Ruined by forces beyond our control. There is no interest in a replacement at present. Perhaps, if we have grandchildren, they will show an interest in football. If they do, I’ll build a new set of goalposts. They’ll be straight and true, the way the goalposts of childhood should be. The way goalposts should always be.

About the author

Danish Pastry author

4,642 Comments so far

BigGavPosted on12:10 pm - Jan 5, 2014


TSFM says:
January 5, 2014 at 11:13 am

Again for the avoidance of doubt, we are absolutely convinced that CtH’s claimed source was bogus …
——–

Just to clarify – are you saying you believe the material itself was not genuine, or simply that the way it was obtained was not what CF claimed?

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100BJDPosted on12:23 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Just had a quick look at @rangersinter the alledgedly latest reincarnation of Charlottefakes…..frankly I do not believe that the people mentioned in the latest offerings such as Irvine, Mather, Easedale etc are totally illiterate so I presume the data supplied is completely fake.

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TSFMPosted on12:29 pm - Jan 5, 2014


BigGav says: (92)

January 5, 2014 at 12:10 pm
_____________________________________________________________

As I said in the post,

For clarity;

Certainly we were counselling caution on CtH, and questioned the provenance of the claimed source, but she never posted any material to TSFM, just links to it. The source or veracity of the material was never the problem. However CtH’s original claim (made to us privately), that she had access to ONE particular (specified) source of information, appeared to us to be false. It then became a question of trust and we were wary of the blog being discredited by disinformation passed on by someone with an unspecified but vested interest. I think that subsequent ‘revelations’, clearly from diverse sources, tends to support that original scepticism.

I have no way of knowing whether CtH’s information was good, although I suspect that much of it is. However given the absence of trust, our fear was that a lot of accurate wee snippets might lead to a big whopper sometime in the future.

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ratethisthenyabampotsPosted on12:49 pm - Jan 5, 2014


100BJD says: (119)
January 5, 2014 at 12:23 pm
Just had a quick look at @rangersinter the alledgedly latest reincarnation of Charlottefakes…..frankly I do not believe that the people mentioned in the latest offerings such as Irvine, Mather, Easedale etc are totally illiterate so I presume the data supplied is completely fake.

————————————————————————————-
There is a consistency throughout I have noticed . Sandy (if indeed it is Sandy) finishes sentences with a space then a full stop like so . It’s almost as though there’s a letter missin . See what I did ther ? For the avoidance of doubt, I am not Sandy Easdal . Have a look and you’ll see what I mean .

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jimlarkinPosted on12:58 pm - Jan 5, 2014


apologies for going off topic, but bbc are reporting the death of Eusebio.

Great entertainer on the pitch in his day.

May he rest in peace.

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Danish PastryPosted on1:38 pm - Jan 5, 2014


TSFM says: (585)
January 5, 2014 at 11:13 am
13 3 Rate This
———–

I thought as much. I had scrolled back to the 2nd but not far enough.

Thanks for the background. The carefully-constructed squirrel theory is a possibility. Although, as the blogger implied, CF did seem to have CW’s fingerprints all over her, in a manner of speaking.

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TSFMPosted on2:53 pm - Jan 5, 2014


100BJD says: (119)

January 5, 2014 at 12:23 pm

Just had a quick look at @rangersinter the alledgedly latest reincarnation of Charlottefakes…..frankly I do not believe that the people mentioned in the latest offerings such as Irvine, Mather, Easedale etc are totally illiterate so I presume the data supplied is completely fake.
____________________________________________________________________

That’s my feeling too. Already people are accepting it and trying to look into Irvine’s alleged scornful treatment of the board. Simpler explanation is that he’d hardly be likely to do that when they have hiring and firing power – therefore on balance, I think it’s a fabrication.
Ditto the Easdale mail. I’ve heard the guy in conversation on TV. Verbally at least he is far more articulate than the email suggests.
Somebody having some fun I think.

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ecobhoyPosted on3:15 pm - Jan 5, 2014


HirsutePursuit says: (471)
January 5, 2014 at 1:48 am
==============================================

I’m afraid I have no actual interest in wasting my time further on what might have been if the LNS Commission had operated an Inquisitorial Approach – whatever that actually means. What we have to deal with is what actually happened – as far as we know – and what we can do about it or learn from it.

There is no transcript of the proceedings so we only know a fraction of what was actually said or argued at the hearing and very little of the investigatory period which makes it difficult to be definitive about what actually happened and why.

I don’t believe it matters what system the Commission operated under – The result would have been the same because that is what the SPL and SFA wanted. Personally I don’t believe that LNS and his two colleagues were actively complicit in that fraud but I believe they probably came to realise they had been ‘used’ as would any other tribunal have been even if comprised of totally different members.

IMO the case for an ‘inquisitorial’ approach is a dead-end debating cul-de-sac which is of no or little consequence to the main issues involved and I am happy to leave this sterile field of debate and concentrate on areas I believe are of more importance and hopefully more productive in terms of Scottish Football.

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ecobhoyPosted on3:31 pm - Jan 5, 2014


TSFM says: (586)
January 5, 2014 at 2:53 pm
100BJD says: (119)
January 5, 2014 at 12:23 pm

Just had a quick look at @rangersinter the alledgedly latest reincarnation of Charlottefakes…..frankly I do not believe that the people mentioned in the latest offerings such as Irvine, Mather, Easedale etc are totally illiterate so I presume the data supplied is completely fake.
____________________________________________________________________

That’s my feeling too. Already people are accepting it and trying to look into Irvine’s alleged scornful treatment of the board. Simpler explanation is that he’d hardly be likely to do that when they have hiring and firing power – therefore on balance, I think it’s a fabrication.
Ditto the Easdale mail. I’ve heard the guy in conversation on TV. Verbally at least he is far more articulate than the email suggests. Somebody having some fun I think.
=====================================================
If the Irvine email is kosher then we know that the RIFC Board is a sham. One of the thing that intrigues me is the Irvine/Greig issue. Has JI apologised or not?

RIFC chair David Somers told the recent RIFC agm that JI had sent a “full apology” to the man voted the greatest ever Ranger. So is that true and why was it never previously publicised given the level of anger the slur created in the Rangers support which would have helped lower the temp at the agm.

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neepheidPosted on3:47 pm - Jan 5, 2014


http://t.co/OxKacgPRGi

Latest blog from Alex Thompson.

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Angus1983Posted on4:00 pm - Jan 5, 2014


neepheid says: (972)
January 5, 2014 at 3:47 pm

Latest blog from Alex Thompson.
——
I suspect Mr T will now become some kind of hero over at RM. 🙂

Hopefully the reverse will not be true – that he becomes vilified by the accused (insert your choice of minority size here) section of Celtic fans for stating the bleedin obvious.

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ecobhoyPosted on4:08 pm - Jan 5, 2014


neepheid says: (972)
January 5, 2014 at 3:47 pm

http://t.co/OxKacgPRGi
Latest blog from Alex Thompson.
====================================
Have never been on the Huddleboard so can’t comment from a personal perspective. I generally accept the quality of AT’s journalism and am well aware that Celtic have some supporters equally as toxic as those at Ibrox and with much the same background and beliefs which should be of no interest to genuine football fans.

If we are to hold our head up as a Club then every Celtic Supporter has to play their part by taking a strong line against bigotry no matter the colour.

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100BJDPosted on4:23 pm - Jan 5, 2014


ratethisthenyabampots says: (105)

January 5, 2014 at 12:49 pm

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100BJD says: (119)
January 5, 2014 at 12:23 pm
Just had a quick look at @rangersinter the alledgedly latest reincarnation of Charlottefakes…..frankly I do not believe that the people mentioned in the latest offerings such as Irvine, Mather, Easedale etc are totally illiterate so I presume the data supplied is completely fake.

————————————————————————————-
There is a consistency throughout I have noticed . Sandy (if indeed it is Sandy) finishes sentences with a space then a full stop like so . It’s almost as though there’s a letter missin . See what I did ther ? For the avoidance of doubt, I am not Sandy Easdal . Have a look and you’ll see what I mea
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Had a look although I will stick to my opinion…never had so many td,s though. I thought that Irvine was actually representing both the Easedales and Rangers so why get right in the middle of two feepaying clients who can chop you in minutes. I do not know Jack Irvine although I think he is too smart for all this plus these latest missives seem to be drafted totally differently from his previous “aye Jack” emails which included the Greig insult. Anyway its all conjecture and time will tell.

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AllyjamboPosted on4:36 pm - Jan 5, 2014


theoldshed says: (59)

January 5, 2014 at 11:54 am

Hi theoldshed,

Good post, but on the idea that reconstruction for the benefit of TRFC might aid Hearts:

If Hearts do come out of administration, and are subsequently relegated, then I hope the club, and our supporters, accept it in the manner that has been displayed so far over our administration and do not seek a cheap ticket to avoid what we truly deserve. Should the league and/or SFA administrators take steps to assist TRFC passage into the top tier I would hope that Hearts will speak out against such proposals and, at the very least, abstain from any vote, insisting any other potential beneficiaries do the same.

The way the club and supporters have handled themselves through this sad period in our history has earned plaudits from most quarters, including many on TSFM, (Dunfermline similarly) and it is my hope that much of the damage done to Hearts good name will be repaired by our continued acceptance of what we, alone, have got ourselves into. Let those embittered souls of the club that was Rangers demand, squeal for, intimidate, insist they did nothing wrong, seek undeserved assistance, and so on, and so on, for that is their way. We should accept any punishment fate decrees, not on the chin, but with good grace, and just be glad we survived (should that be the case). I’d hate to give anyone cause to say, whilst talking of Hearts, the words ‘just like Rangers’, preferring instead to hear people say, ‘if only those at Ibrox had conducted themselves just like Hearts’.

I am confident that if we continue to act in this way, and not seek any leg-ups, we will be much better prepared for what lies ahead that TRFC are, and consequently our recovery will be swifter (not necessarily more successful) than theirs.

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theoldshedPosted on4:40 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Allyjambo says: (750)
January 5, 2014 at 4:36 pm
0 0 Rate This
I’d hate to give anyone cause to say, whilst talking of Hearts, the words ‘just like Rangers’, preferring instead to hear people say, ‘if only those at Ibrox had conducted themselves just like Hearts’.
——————————————————
Thanks. I agree 100% with your comments

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SmugasPosted on5:18 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Slightly confused at this special invite scenario. I can understand an expansion blocking the relegation of, presumably, hearts in much the same way as, was it Aberdeen? That is still a long long way from a team, however triumphant, all dominating and well supported jumping a league.

Won’t stop them trying of course but I genuinely think its a no goer.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on5:25 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Angus1983 says: (1315)
January 5, 2014 at 4:00 pm

Indeed so…
I have seen the screen grabs of the threats of physical and sexual violence towards journalist Angela Haggerty made on the Huddleboard.

Disgusting stuff.

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BauhausPosted on5:27 pm - Jan 5, 2014


I thought the latest blog from Alex Thomson not far different from some of his earlier blogs on Rangers: some perfectly fair comments drowned to an extent in florid overexaggeration.

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jean7brodiePosted on5:43 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Bauhaus says: (2)
January 5, 2014 at 5:27 pm

‘some perfectly fair comments drowned to an extent in florid overexaggeration.’
————————————————————–
Indeed.
Hyperbolic.
Millwall comparison ❗

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BauhausPosted on5:48 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Certainly, Alex Thomson may have a point about Celtic forums drifting towards having more extreme and unbalanced atmospheres.
I joined Kerrydale Street as it used to seem fairly calm and well moderated. I tended to mainly lurk as I am based in England and mainly just go to the friendlies and European games so had little to contribute.
However recently, when there was a debate about republican songs at the games, I broke cover to offer my opinion as someone from England about the song ‘Roll of Honour’ specifically the add-on: “England you’re a ba***rd”.
My point was that not only is this offensive in the modern day but that if Celtic were drawn in the CL against Arsenal and the Green Brigade started belting it out at the Emirates, it would be considered straightforward racism. I was banned sine die, those advocating this song at games still post there.
Of course KDS can moderate how they see fit and it is no loss to me as I had little to contribute in any case.
However the net effect of that Celtic forum’s policy is to align itself strongly with what seems to many (and certainly to such as Alex Thomson) as the more extreme end of the Celtic-supporting spectrum.
The Huddleboard has always been of that persuasion, but now it seems that there is a shift to this harder atmosphere across the Celtic areas of social media?
Alex T. Is over the top, but his core criticism chimes with my own recent unease…

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Danish PastryPosted on5:49 pm - Jan 5, 2014


neepheid says: (972)
January 5, 2014 at 3:47 pm
18 8 Rate This

http://t.co/OxKacgPRGi

Latest blog from Alex Thompson.
—————-

Just read that too. Not visited that site, but don’t visit many fan sites. Can’t remember enough about Millwall to know if his comparison fits. Does it?

There’s been quite a few incidents of late by the supporters of various clubs but I suppose the biggest club will get the most coverage from what seems to be a press corps on a mission.

No holding back on the Scottish media, but a wee thumbs up tae TSFM. Speaking of TU’s, I’m a bit bemused as to why you have 8 TDs for posting that link.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on5:53 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Bauhaus says: (3)
January 5, 2014 at 5:48 pm
Well said.
Whatever about the analogies used by AT-there is undeniably a delinquent element in the Celtic support.
Moreover it grows the more it is authorized by whataboutery.

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Tif FinnPosted on6:04 pm - Jan 5, 2014


I have never seen anything on the huddleboard, or any screengrabs from it.

However I have now had a look at the registration screen and the rules, and if I was ever of a mind to have a look I certainly am not now.

http://www.huddleboard.net/hb/register.php?do=signup

Not for me I’m afraid.

On Alex Thomson’s article itself,

======================================

“The Seville days are ancient history. Like a bully with no natural competitors (though Rangers are on their way back), the Celtic of today is rightly gaining a reputation for the most consistently violent fans in the UK who attack stadiums as if we’re living in 1974.

They are Scotland’s modern Millwall: an underclass of extreme politics and mindless violence – the same old toxic brew.

That’s the Celtic Underclass on tour. The same cancer is reflected online. On Huddleboard for instance in recent days.”

======================================

I’m a Celtic fan Alex, I don’t consider myself an underclass, though other people in my country do. Neither do I consider myself to hold extreme political beliefs or to be in any way violent, though I have experienced both throughout my life.

I have never assumes that all of the Rangers’ support share the views of the extreme elements like vanguard bears. I take exception that you paint the Celtic support based on your views on the extreme elements of one particular forum.

You have every right to express your opinion, so long as it is done in a reasonable manner. You have every right to decry members of that forum and it’s administrators if they have done what you said and I have no reason to doubt you. However to tar the entire support based on that is simply wrong.

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stewartkevPosted on6:06 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Long time lurker on TSFM and RTC but first post.

ON Smugas’ post above; it is a common misconception, perpetuated by those in the media that should know better, that Aberdeen avoided relegation in 99-00 due to Falkirk’s stadium not meeting SPL requirements. In actual fact, Aberdeen avoided a three team playoff for relegation. If I recall correctly, this was the year that the league expanded from 10 to 12 teams.

Motherwell, however, finished bottom in their administration season (2002-3?) and avoided relegation due to the groundshare that Falkirk proposed being rejected by the SPL.

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pau1mart1nPosted on6:17 pm - Jan 5, 2014


“-there is undeniably a delinquent element in the Celtic support.”

but could you not say that of any club, anywhere ??
(except Monaco I imagine)

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ecobhoyPosted on6:25 pm - Jan 5, 2014


I think we have always got to remember that AT is a journalist and at the end of the day comparing Celtic to Millwall sells ‘papers’.

The comments apparently made on the Huddleboard are inexcusable and what is worse is that they do not appear to have merited moderation.

I have no doubt we will see many co-ordinated attacks launched on AT from a section of the Celtic support which I feel no affinity towards. However there is a genuine point to be made about the comparison with Millwall which in my personal experience of the times is OTT.

The problem as always with this type of situation is the decision as to whether Celtic should become involved ‘officially’ and there are pros and cons to that course of action. Sadly the agenda here will be set by the SMSM and I await that with interest.

Bottom line is if the comments had never been made or had been deleted and the posters banned from the site then Celtic would have been in a much stronger position to defend itself. That didn’t happen and we have to learn lessons and clean-up our act or suffer the consequences in terms of reputational damage.

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ecobhoyPosted on6:44 pm - Jan 5, 2014


pau1mart1n says: (259)
January 5, 2014 at 6:17 pm

“-there is undeniably a delinquent element in the Celtic support.”
——————————————————————
but could you not say that of any club, anywhere ?? (except Monaco I imagine)
—————————————————————————-
Whether there is a delinquent element in every club or nor isn’t the point IMO. It is up to the majority of fans to ensure that any delinquent element is marginalised and to assist their club in doing so.

However when it comes to some clubs, including Rangers and Celtic, there is a bigger problem which extends way beyond transient delinquency and is much more serious and a helluva lot more difficult to deal with and eradicate.

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SmugasPosted on6:49 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Stewartkev

Ok, the key point still being the one up one down, or one down 3 up (with further perfectly valid adjustments for stadium criteria openly stated at the start of the season 😀 ) scenario being altered to accommodate expansion is still miles apart from one club vaulting an entire division.

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Madbhoy24941Posted on6:52 pm - Jan 5, 2014


ecobhoy says: (2174)

January 5, 2014 at 6:25 pm

Bottom line is if the comments had never been made or had been deleted and the posters banned from the site then Celtic would have been in a much stronger position to defend itself. That didn’t happen and we have to learn lessons and clean-up our act or suffer the consequences in terms of reputational damage.
—————————————–

I disagree, “we” do not need to clean up anything. The individuals responsible for the posts and the site mods are responsible for their own actions, if they have said anything racist, sexist or any other comment which breaks a law, let the police deal with accordingly. I don’t believe the wider Celtic family could do anything about the site or the individuals concerned.

I have not viewed this or some of the other sites for a long time as I feel they do no represent my view as a law abiding, tolerant person, if they are shut down for abuses then it won’t just be the fans of The Ibrox Club that are happier.

I don’t know if the figures are correct or if any even exist, but I cannot believe that Celtic have “the most consistently violent fans in The UK”. I see idiots all the time, I do not however see a violent streak that runs through even a small minority of the support.

It is my belief that AT is trying to raise a good point the wrong way, sensationalistic headlines are sometimes good for opening eyes but they should be factual and not a misrepresentation of basic truths.

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erniePosted on6:54 pm - Jan 5, 2014


On the AT blog I thought it hilarious that a disgruntled Millwall fan is insulted by the comparison to CFC: he opines they are in fact closer to The Rangers politically! Get a grip AT, get to know your deluded fitba tribes better.

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ecobhoyPosted on7:01 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Bauhaus says: (3)
January 5, 2014 at 5:48 pm

The Huddleboard has always been of that persuasion, but now it seems that there is a shift to this harder atmosphere across the Celtic areas of social media?
=================================================================
I am amazed that a self-confessed lurker on KDS and who has only 3 posts here is au fait with the type of posting to be found on the Huddleboard. Did you actually sign-up to register given the stipulations as I am at one with Tif Finn and neither of us tend to be lurkers but very vocal in our opinions – which often differ 😆 .

If you did joing Huddleboard I am surprised. Personally I am opposed to Roll of Honour being sung at Celtic Games for a variety of reasons and fully understand the historical context of the refererence to England which I will not explore as it would contravene moderation here.

But on most Celtic sites such as KDS different opinions are expressed by various fan groups and I am surprised that you were banned for expressing you opinion. I would like to know the thread and date all this happened on as it seems a bit extreme and not like KDS.

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ecobhoyPosted on7:17 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Madbhoy24941 says: (343)
January 5, 2014 at 6:52 pm
ecobhoy says: (2174)
January 5, 2014 at 6:25 pm

Bottom line is if the comments had never been made or had been deleted and the posters banned from the site then Celtic would have been in a much stronger position to defend itself. That didn’t happen and we have to learn lessons and clean-up our act or suffer the consequences in terms of reputational damage.
—————————————–
I disagree, “we” do not need to clean up anything. The individuals responsible for the posts and the site mods are responsible for their own actions, if they have said anything racist, sexist or any other comment which breaks a law, let the police deal with accordingly. I don’t believe the wider Celtic family could do anything about the site or the individuals concerned.
==============================================================
You appear to have misconstrued my point or I have put it badly. What I said is that if the offending posts/posters had been correctly IMO dealt with by the Huddleboard then Celtic as a Club when questioned by SMSM would be able to say that appropriate action was speedily taken by the site and they supported it.

I think your solution that we just leave criminal posts to be dealt with by the police is giving real hostages to fortune and I think most people would accept that the quicker effective action is taken the better. I was not advocating Celtic taking any action but the Mods on the Huddleboard.

That they didn’t just makes it harder for Celtic to defend the overwhelming majority of decent Celtic supporters who have no time for the posters involved or their hate-filled message. Unlike you I happen to believe the wider Celtic family has a lot it can do to express decent non-criminal opinions on all websites.

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justshateredPosted on7:24 pm - Jan 5, 2014


I posted a while ago that there is an element of the Celtic support that, over the last 18 months, has began to display the arrogance that I particularly disliked about the old RFC.
They have began to display the contempt for other teams which I personally don’t like.
Some of the banners seemed designed to bring the club into disrepute and gone are the days where there was some humour in chants particularly leading up to RFC’s liquidation.
I liked Partick Thistle’s fans response to the off side goal on New Years Day when lots of Celtic fans cheered and stood up only for the goal to be disallowed; ‘Shut up, sit doon, shut up, sit doon.’ came the cry.
It made me laugh and that is one of the reasons I attend football.

I also liked the pictures of the Aberdeen fans ‘Armageddon’ banner against Dundee United.
Humour used to be a great part of our sport and the numpties that are spoiling it for everybody else need to be hunted. They don’t bring atmosphere, as they claim, no they bring danger with smoke bombs and flares and set back real issues in our sport like safe standing.
With each smoke bomb and flare they set back this important issue by years. Those of us old enough to remember the great atmosphere in the old jungle at Parkhead, or the shed at Fir Park, or the terracing at Tannadice and other grounds wish to see a return to those days. I used to attend Borussia Munchengladbach games and they had a whole lower tier of one stand given over to standing while at the same time the away support had a corner of the stadium where two tiers were standing and it made the atmosphere within the stadium. It was great and actually brought more fans to matches.
Our sport has become sterile by comparison where you are expected to show up, stay seated, clap if there is a goal, and sod off at full time.

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Madbhoy24941Posted on7:26 pm - Jan 5, 2014


ecobhoy says: (2177)

January 5, 2014 at 7:17 pm

You appear to have misconstrued my point or I have put it badly. What I said is that if the offending posts/posters had been correctly IMO dealt with by the Huddleboard then Celtic as a Club when questioned by SMSM would be able to say that appropriate action was speedily taken by the site and they supported it.

—————————————

I did Eco, sorry.

Like you, I think it is the responsibility of the mods to monitor and control the blog.

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cowanpetePosted on7:52 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Guys,
Just saying like.

[Thanks CP, but the mods will deal with moderation issues.]

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on7:53 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Reilly1926 says: (219)
January 5, 2014 at 7:43 pm
My moral compass isn’t connected to any commercial considerations…
It never has been and never will be.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on8:11 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Not my piece to defend.
I would imagine that the Millwall comparison was intended to make people uncomfortable.
I certainly don’t like the juxtaposition.
However, I DO believe that Celtic has a growing crowd problem.
Hopefully it can be fixed.
What books you buy or don’t buy are a matter for you.
I hope the optician allows you to enjoy future reading by any author.

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TSFMPosted on8:13 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Folks,
Please discontinue the discussion about moderation on other sites. The PM service is there if you want to exchange experiences. Also, the place to discuss AT’s blog is on AT’s blog.

There is no issue with discussion on fan behaviour as such, but there’s some playing the man taking place here, which is unacceptable.
We are not having people question other people’s rights to hold views they may disagree with. Posts with that tone will be (and have been) removed.

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Tif FinnPosted on8:19 pm - Jan 5, 2014


“Getting a wee bit too “Celtic-minded” for something claiming to be “The Scottish Football Monitor””

======================================

Why would “The Scottish Football Monitor” be precluded from talking about Celtic’s problems with a section of it’s support and unacceptable online behaviour. Celtic recognise this problem and the majority of the support recognise this problem.

Alex Thomson is a respected journalist (and I use the word advisedly, he really is a journalist). He has put out a blog, on the official Channel 4 site, discussing issues with a certain forum and with the Celtic support in general. Accusing that support of various things, including

” …gaining a reputation for the most consistently violent fans in the UK who attack stadiums as if we’re living in 1974.

They are Scotland’s modern Millwall: an underclass of extreme politics and mindless violence – the same old toxic brew.”

Are you suggesting that is not an appropriate discussion for this blog.

I have to disagree.

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TSFMPosted on8:24 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Tiff Finn

I agree with you. However the predictable reaction here will be to attack people with particular views – including AT. We don’t want that here.

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AllyjamboPosted on8:25 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Bit off topic, but not completely.

Millwall, not a particularly admired club. I’d never met any of their supporters until last November, on holiday in Lanzarote. Two brothers, both really nice guys and good company. They were in their late 30s/early 40s and held fond memories of their younger days travelling all over England, and Scotland for a few friendlies, to support their team. They’d grown up a bit, of course, but I was left in no doubt they’d been the type of ‘fans’ we equate Millwall with, and held fond memories of those days.

Didn’t take long for the conversation to drift onto football, and neither put down Scottish football, at all, and both thought Hearts were great – because they loved John Colquhoun who’d gone to Millwall from Hearts. They also hated Aberdeen, more so than any other club (anywhere), for reasons I’ll leave to Dons fans to work out.

Anyway, they told me that they really liked Rangers, coz Rangers had ‘started’ Millwall. I found this strange but they told me it was because so many of people had come down to Millwall from Glasgow to work in the jute industry because their city (Glasgow) was the world centre of jute production and Millwall was producing jute too (or whatever is produced from jute). I explained that Dundee was, in fact, the city famed for jute and they said, oh yeh, it was Dundee that started us.

Anyway, it would appear AT is comparing part, at least, of the Celtic support with supporters of a club who don’t know the difference between Rangers (IL) and Dundee FC, nor Glasgow and Dundee. He is also comparing street fighters with online abusers. I actually don’t get the comparison.

That Angela Haggerty, who has suffered the most disgusting abuse, and threats, from the worst elements of a club that has some of the worst elements in society, should now be suffering similar abuse from people who should see her as one of their own, well that just beggars belief.

AT’s blog, I think, is misdirected – in my opinion he seems to be pandering, somewhat, to the ‘Rangers’ fans who have lambasted him for speaking out about their club’s actions – but that doesn’t detract from the more serious point of his blog, that men, I use that term very loosely, are verbally assaulting, in the most cowardly fashion, a woman who has shown more guts in the past couple of years than they ever will.

I wish I had the words to offer Ms Haggerty, by way of an apology, as a man and a football supporter, but I don’t. Instead might I suggest we all, here on TSFM, offer her our moral support along with our condemnation of those who have so abused her?

Integrity, dignity, I bet those abusers have used those words quite freely in the past couple of years!

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on8:28 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Allyjambo says: (751)
January 5, 2014 at 8:25 pm
Re: Angela Haggerty.
Well said.

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AllyjamboPosted on8:37 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Thanks Phil. You obviously know her quite well, I’d appreciate it if you’d pass my best wishes to her, and those of the blog, and our hopes that she is coping as well as possible with the effect of this disgrace. At times I truly despair over the society we live in.

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Danish PastryPosted on8:41 pm - Jan 5, 2014


cowanpete says: (40)
January 5, 2014 at 7:52 pm
19 4 Rate This
———

@cowanpete
Congratulations on putting on a great show the other night! That stadium looks great and even better packed out. The camera gantry is also placed at a proper height, something that gives a great overview of the play. I often wonder why more clubs don’t create higher camera positions? Enhances the TV spectacle for viewers and the SPFL is trying to market Scottish football.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on8:43 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Allyjambo says: (752)
January 5, 2014 at 8:37 pm
She’s a colleague-a damn fine book editor-and I saw what she went through from the Blue Half of the City during the noise over Downfall.
Now she gets it from people who-a year ago-were lauding her.

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jimlarkinPosted on8:46 pm - Jan 5, 2014


ernie says: (34)
January 5, 2014 at 6:54 pm
20 0 Rate This

On the AT blog I thought it hilarious that a disgruntled Millwall fan is insulted by the comparison to CFC: he opines they are in fact closer to The Rangers politically! Get a grip AT, get to know your deluded fitba tribes better.
=============================================

As one of the previous posters pointed out – unfortunately there is an “extreme” element in every clubs’ fans.
Celtic have and are continuing to “educate” these people who claim to be Celtic fans.

On the topic of “other” fans…i wonder what pleasantries are on the newcastle fans sites regarding Sunderland, middlesborough or hartlepool or vice-versa?

I wonder what is on the Arsenal or Chelski sites about Tottenham Hotspur or vice-versa?

According to quite a few football players in england who would be considered to be of an ethnic origin, was there not recently some black players who claimed rascism was still a major problem in england.

Maybe alex tommo could do a wee expose about that and include a wee interview with ron atkinson to see how the re-education of these people is going?

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jean7brodiePosted on8:46 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Allyjambo says: (751)
January 5, 2014 at 8:25 pm

I endorse what you say 100%.

I am disgusted and ashamed to the core about what has happened to Angela Haggerty.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on8:51 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Allyjambo says: (752)
January 5, 2014 at 8:37 pm
She seems to have become a bête noire of some Celtic chaps when she raised the issue of the sexist barracking that Elfsborg physios received at Parkhead.

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cowanpetePosted on9:02 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Danish Pastry says: (1867)
———
@cowanpete
Congratulations on putting on a great show the other night!
============
No congratulations due to me, DP, but glad to hear such positive criticism. Glad to note that ER is getting use for semi-finals, finals, and occasional internationals. Anything which moves the scottish football axis away from Glasgow – ever so slightly, and ever so temporarily – has to be seen as a Good Thing, no?

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AllyjamboPosted on9:08 pm - Jan 5, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says: (230)

January 5, 2014 at 8:51 pm

To be honest, I am totally unaware of what has caused the ire of these Celtic supporting bloggers. It really makes no difference. By all means post counter arguments, probably make themselves look stupid in the process, but it’s just meant to be bloody football.

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Reilly1926Posted on9:10 pm - Jan 5, 2014


[TSFM Edit
Naughty step for you. Come back when you feel like apologising to the poster you just abused)

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jean7brodiePosted on9:19 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Allyjambo says: (753)
January 5, 2014 at 9:08 pm

Unsure of which… ‘Celtic supporting bloggers’ you mean AJ.
Sorry but I’m a bit thick when it comes to ‘bloggers’ and ‘posters’. Do you mean on here or on ‘The Huddleboard’ etc?

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:19 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Reilly1926 says: (222)
January 5, 2014 at 9:10 pm
This is the piece I am referring to and the response to it-from some CFC chaps-towards Angela was-well-colourful.

http://angelahaggerty.com/get-your-wits-out-for-the-ghirls/

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:25 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Allyjambo says: (753)
January 5, 2014 at 9:08 pm
Indeed so…

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AllyjamboPosted on9:25 pm - Jan 5, 2014


jean7brodie says: (407)

January 5, 2014 at 9:19 pm

Sorry, I was referring specifically to those who have been posting abusive messages. For the record I see this as more of a society problem than a Celtic, or football, problem. Indeed, I have sympathy with Celtic bloggers who may feel tarnished by the behaviour of these morons.

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Danish PastryPosted on9:28 pm - Jan 5, 2014


cowanpete says: (41)
January 5, 2014 at 9:02 pm
4 0 Rate This

Danish Pastry says: (1867)
———
@cowanpete
Congratulations on putting on a great show the other night!
============
Anything which moves the scottish football axis away from Glasgow – ever so slightly, and ever so temporarily – has to be seen as a Good Thing, no?
———–

Well, as a Glaswegian born and bred, it saddens me to say that I totally agree with you.

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jean7brodiePosted on9:37 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Allyjambo says: (754)
January 5, 2014 at 9:25 pm

Thanks AJ.

On a separate point, my full post at 8.46pm was edited? Can I just say to TSFM:
(Enunciated like My cousin Vinny)
“I think I get the point!!!” ❓

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Danish PastryPosted on9:43 pm - Jan 5, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says: (232)
January 5, 2014 at 9:19 pm (Edit)
4 4 Rate This

Reilly1926 says: (222)
January 5, 2014 at 9:10 pm
This is the piece I am referring to and the response to it-from some CFC chaps-towards Angela was-well-colourful.

http://angelahaggerty.com/get-your-wits-out-for-the-ghirls/
————-

Great piece. Written by a true fan who cares about her club and its image.

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GoosyGoosyPosted on9:52 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Major crisis for SSB
What negative spin can they put on the St Mirren result?
They have been talking for weeks about Celtic`s massive striker crisis because despite dominating most games they have only been winning 1-0.
They harp on and on that these narrow victories were only achieved because defenders and midfielders, like Kris Commons scored the goals
They gleefully speculate that qualifying for next years CL is going to be too difficult because a few players havent scored for a few weeks over the holiday period
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
When will these numpties figure out that ANYBODY who scores a significant number of goals in a season is a “STRIKER” irrespective of where he is supposed to play
Likewise
Any team with the potential to score goals from every position is operating from strength not weakness

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davythelotionPosted on9:59 pm - Jan 5, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says: (232)
January 5, 2014 at 9:19 pm
1 2 Rate This
&&&&&&
Sexist behaviour should be confronted and dealt with in exactly the same way as any other form of discriminatory behaviour. Football suffers from a particular lack of balance in the boardroom in particular. Why is there very few women, if any, involved in the upper echelons of the SFA? Why are the MSM only interested in promoting men to senior reporting posts at the BBC, STV, or radio/print?
Organisations have to lead from the top when it comes to promoting pro-social behaviour. Statements about delinquent behaviour should come from the CEO, action should be both corrective and educational.
If supporters misbehave they should face the consequences. Saying that someone else’s behaviour is worse is no justification for your own.
Forums have a responsibility to moderate, free speech is a right and a responsibility.

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fergussingsthebluesPosted on10:01 pm - Jan 5, 2014


When I first read AT’s latest blog I was originally amazed that he was referring to one nasty little CFC website that I’d never heard of until now. Sounds like they have now been caught Hook, Line and Sinker and I sincerely hope that they get the same treatment as that odious other creature, Limond.

However, when I think about it now, especially in context of Mr Limond’s impending confirmation that he will be spending a little holiday at one of HM’s finest resorts, I have to take my hat of to AT.

Looks to me like he has thrown down the gauntlet to our SMSM. Will they bite on this, considering their absolute silence on reporting about Limond?

It will be an interesting few days I think!

Thanks AT. At the very least, these disgusting racists from both our 2 biggest supported football clubs should be exposed big style. It may open up a wider debate in Scotland. Here’s hoping!

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:13 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Danish Pastry says: (1869)
January 5, 2014 at 9:43 pm
Indeed.
The piece also flagged up important points about the position of women in the sport in Scotland.

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paulsatimPosted on10:26 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Phil, what you hearing about events on southside of Glasgow? Seems to be a few rumours flying about tonight.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:28 pm - Jan 5, 2014


paulsatim says: (683)
January 5, 2014 at 10:26 pm
I gave my sources a break over the break as it were 🙂
Subsequently I haven’t heard a thing.

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paulsatimPosted on10:30 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Thanks Phil, recall you said before New Year that this Monday could be interesting.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:34 pm - Jan 5, 2014


paulsatim says: (684)
January 5, 2014 at 10:30 pm
I was alluding to the start of the austerity measures from Graham Wallace.
He’s a misunderestimated chap as Dubya would have it 😉

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Sugar DaddyPosted on10:42 pm - Jan 5, 2014


To quote Celtic’s own website.

“Celtic Football Club is a Scottish football club with proud Irish links. The primary business of Celtic is as a football club. It is run on a professional business basis with no political agenda. However, the Club has a wider role and the responsibility of being a major Scottish social institution promoting health, well-being and social integration.

Celtic Football Club…seeks to support the following aims: To maximise all opportunities to disassociate the Club from sectarianism and bigotry of any kind. To promote Celtic as a Club for all people, regardless of gender, age, religion, race or ability.”

Some Celtic fans would do well to read the club’s social mission and then try and live up to it.

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paulsatimPosted on10:43 pm - Jan 5, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says: (235)
January 5, 2014 at 10:34 pm

Thats one of the rumours, Wallace to walk away!

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Tif FinnPosted on10:44 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Wallace walking away would hardly be considered “explosively bad news” would it.

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tearsofjoyPosted on10:44 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Upthehoops- which other stadiums have Celtic fans attacked ?

Not an irregular occurrence at Tynecastle according to Hearts fans. I wouldn’t know as I stopped going to Celtic games at Tynecastle about 10 years ago due to the violence. For the most recent example ,there is footage on YouTube from the game at which Neil Lennon was attacked. You can clearly see stewards and police being attacked. Nothing was reported in the. Media as understandably the Lennon incident had the front page that night. Allegedly that night catering staff were attacked and robbed ,not for the first time.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:46 pm - Jan 5, 2014


paulsatim says: (685)
January 5, 2014 at 10:43 pm
That would be a surprise.
I know that he is CEO with the blessing of all the major players in the Boardroom.
Moreover they all know that austerity is vital for survival.
With ST price hikes and cost cutting they should be ok.
However the austerity will not be pleasant (it never is) and is GW delivers then RIFC/Sevco will look different afterwards.
Keep a weather eye on Murray Park.
A huge drain on resources.

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Bill1903Posted on10:47 pm - Jan 5, 2014


upthehoops says: (776)
January 5, 2014
Incidentally, in terms of the Scottish media it is abundantly clear they are not interested in reporting smoke bomb/flare issues, fans running on the park etc with the vigour they do with the Celtic fans. As long as this inherent bias exists, we will get nowhere.
—————————————————
You need to open your eyes a bit
Twice you’ve come out with its only Celtic that are getting grief in the press about their fans.
Twice I have posted links(Aberdeen fans arrested for damaging seats at Parkhead/Two dons face jail for smoke bomb incidents in Dundee)
Both above reported especially the second incident.
As usual no comment from yourself

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jean7brodiePosted on10:51 pm - Jan 5, 2014


paulsatim says: (684)
January 5, 2014 at 10:26 pm

Have heard that too. But hey ho who knows!?
Midnight maybe?!!

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paulsatimPosted on10:53 pm - Jan 5, 2014


Tif Finn says: (1182)
January 5, 2014 at 10:44 pm

Absolutely! Just one of the rumours circulating.

This guy seems to be instigator

Celtic Are A Newco ‏@CelticAreANewco 1h
@GMasterton Prepare for the worst.
View conversation Reply Retweet Favorite More
Celtic Are A Newco ‏@CelticAreANewco 1h
As fans the day is coming where we may have to make decisions that will break our hearts. Short term pain for long term gain.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
Celtic Are A Newco ‏@CelticAreANewco 1h
Hearing that there is going to be explosively bad news for us in tomorrows rags. Get those seat belts on Bears. 🙁

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Tif FinnPosted on10:55 pm - Jan 5, 2014


“As fans the day is coming where we may have to make decisions that will break our hearts.”

====================================

The customers are getting to make the decisions.

No wonder this business is run as badly as the last one.

They should try getting appropriately trained professionals in to do it.

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