This is a reblog of an excellent post by http://glasnostandapairofstrikers.wordpress.com.
TSFM will be posting a new blog tomorrow dealing with the continued intimidation and threats that seem to follow New Rangers everywhere.
Thanks to Glasnost and Pair of Strikers for their permission to reblog. I am sure we will be hearing from them for some time to come.
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 13:45
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I think you will find he is stating that legally they are not Rangers 1872….they are The Rangers Football Club Limited 2012….yes the name Rangers is in there…that for convenience allows the abbreviated term Rangers to be used…otherwise if as you say they are Rangers 1872…then they have a £140 million debt to pay…along with an FTT result that could and should lead to expulsion from football if found guilty….now which Rangers are you suggesting are playing their football in SFL 3? The 1872 version or the 2012 version? and yes I fully understand that some fans are unable to accept that the club they love may have been extinguished…zapped…deid…finito….and that they will for the sake of their health..their family…life itself they will…no they must ignore the truth and in a WACO style indoctrined approach to the club they loved…continue to say over and over Rangers are still alive…whilst holding a finger in each ear…
How can the utter shanningans be discussed AND BELIEVED where possible…surrounding the football club being liquidated and all the fianancial mismanagement that has sunk it…if the starting point is a lie?..
The media…who have a fair few Rangers fans amongst them…the SFA and elements within the SPL and the Rangers fans themselves need Rangers to exist in their world…they will continue at every turn where possible use the term Rangers to reinforce this mantra..and in the same fashion you coined your post….no matter how often you say it…whether you like it or not…Rangers football 1872 will be liquidated and cease to exist. and I will refer to the club created in 1872 as SEVCO or TRFCLTD 2012
Charlie Brown says:
August 24, 2012 at 13:19
As I said I simply don’t get it – well actually I do get it. Charles Green wants to sell out the stadium and rake in as much money as he can from The Rangers ie from The Rangers fans.
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Is this any different from any other club chairman??
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 14:17
Charlie Brown says:
August 24, 2012 at 14:14
Just like we can’t mention the Kelly years!
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With just one comment you have, in my eyes at least, totally thrown away any credibility you had as a poster on this site
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WOTTPI says:
August 24, 2012 at 14:01
As discussed on SSB I agree that the players turned out in good faith so it is a bit unfair that they should have to loose the right to say they won a league or cup when they put the effort in on the pitch.
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I don’t buy into this argument at all. The players will not be asked to return their medals, they will not be ordered to undergo brain surgery to remove their memories of the particular victory or campaign and they certainly won’t be asked to pay back their win bonuses. All that happens is that the official records will be altered to reflect the wrongdoing on the part of the club.
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 13:32
Not what ive heard, the 5 way agreement didnt state any money would be paid to Oldco/D&P
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Any idea where I can peruse a copy of this agreement, I have never seen the full text published anywhere?? In fact I have never seen any text published anywhere.
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 14:44
What exactly was the point of mentioning Aresnal and their EBT and Spanish clubs with tax problems?
You asked what my view was with regard to these clubs and should they be thrown out of football.
My apologies if I misinterpreted this as you possibly taking the opposite stance.
Therefore can you clear it up.
What should happen to Arsenal and the Spanish clubs you appear to be so concerned about?
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 13:14
Interesting read:
http://rangersfightback.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/exclusive-rangers-to-be-fined-upwards-of-10-million/
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Very interesting read, and written by a man who sees the EBT case as no more than a clerical error.
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 14:44
Where do I ever mention that??? I dont want to see ANY team liquidated from football. Why should fans suffer for the likes of money men who ruin football teams?
Hi Fifer
Here is one of those points where opinions diverge fairly rapidly.
The counter point to your argument is: why should the fans of other teams suffer because of the mismanagement of Rangers?
The Oldco was mismanaged on such a massive scale that liquidation became inevitable. Unfortunate for innnocent fans of the club, but still inevitable.
The Newco may have bought assets of Oldco, but it had no right, none what so ever, to expect or demand a place in either the SPL or the SFL.
It appears to have achieved a place in the SFL through a very flawed process that has disadvantaged many other teams with a better claim, and involved serious breaches of the football rules that apply to all of the rest of our teams.
I hope you will understand that a hell of a lot of the readers and contributors to this blog are understandably unhappy about this situation. For many, the very existence of a club that has been parachuted into the SFL attempting to claim it is the same as the oldco, is seen as a complete betrayal of the rules of the game.
Under those circumstances you will hopefully appreciate that there is a price to be paid. For many, that price is that the current incarnation of the club playing in Govan will never be allowed to claim the history of the original unchallenged. Hence the name of the team becomes important for the sake of clarity and transparency.
smallteaser says:
August 24, 2012 at 15:03
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Charlie Brown says:
August 24, 2012 at 13:19
As I said I simply don’t get it – well actually I do get it. Charles Green wants to sell out the stadium and rake in as much money as he can from The Rangers ie from The Rangers fans.
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Is this any different from any other club chairman??
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Well it depends on who the owner or chairman is and which club etc, for some of the wealthy it’s a hobby or a plaything to spend their wealth (Abramovich, Romanov etc), for some they are local businessmen and lifelong fans of the club (Stephen Thomson, Turnbull Hutton etc) and for some it’s a potential money earner if they can buy low, sell high and profit from the additional revenue streams even if they’ve never previously set foot in the stadium before this year (Charles Green)
Charles Green stated aim is to make himself and his investors a nice profit from their investment in buying Rangers assets and rebuilding The Rangers Football Club. he can only do this by taking some percentage of the money that The Rangers fans plough in and taking that money out of the club/company and paying it to himself/his investors.
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 13:11
0 2 i Rate This
paulmac says:
August 24, 2012 at 12:13
all im allowed to say is source is an employee
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An ex rangers employee or supporter by chance…there is a fair few in there!
tomtom says:
August 24, 2012 at 15:04
What I was getting at is that most of the players will be wholly innocent in that, not being the sharpest knives in the drawer, they will just have taken advice on their contract and payments.
As you say in they will have the medals that say they have won leagues and cup and possible scars and injuries as a reminder of the effort asked of them but one day some punter will challenge them in a pub about tainted titles and the like.
It is not really their fault but it is them and not SDM, Bain, Ogilvie and the like who will have to face up to a bammer looking to pick a fight.
I wholly agree the record book need to be altered to highlight the wrong doing but that still doesn’t take away from the effort put in by the players.
Fifer says: @ 13:14
This appears to be more mis-information along the lines of the statement by the supporter’s groups a a few weeks ago
The more unenlightened among them will take it as fact, and treat it as another call to arms in their war against what they think is persecution
It looks like another attempt at rabble rousing if I’m honest
As a regular follower of the original RTC blog I am delighted to see his/her/their efforts have inspired the SFM to continue their work and that many of the ‘big hitters’ are still making valuable contributions.
Being a migrant of the Anglo Saxon variety I have no particular allegiance to any football club in Scotland and living in the west of Scotland I experience the best and worst of the beautiful game. Scotland is my team and I have attended more games at Hampden than anywhere else and I was there in Paris when Faddy scored.
I want to support the Scottish team and I want them to win but I do not support the organisation behind the national team who have been inept, negligent and naïve at the very least, corrupt and nepotistic at the very worst. I have cancelled my SSC membership for one thing and let them know why.
I don’t take Sky, I don’t buy a newspaper, I turn the radio off after matches to avoid those dreadful phone-ins – there are plenty of good places on the interweb to get the latest news and sport chat without stupidity and hate. I do wonder if that is enough though. Any other suggestions?
Slainte
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Baxter
Fascinating reading. Contained herein is the events which led to a sportsman being stripped of honours despite being cleared of any deliberate wrongdoing.
Fifer,
How about a no-blame forwarding looking contribution on the following?
1. How should our national game be governed? To minimise the risk of a rangers-style debacle
2. How should we structure our football leagues? To enhance competition and raise standards
3. How should our football clubs be owned and structured so that they are run in the interests of their fans? To minimise the risk of a rangers-style debacle?
Charlie Brown says:
August 24, 2012 at 15:13
Well it depends on who the owner or chairman is and which club etc, for some of the wealthy it’s a hobby or a plaything to spend their wealth (Abramovich, Romanov etc), for some they are local businessmen and lifelong fans of the club (Stephen Thomson, Turnbull Hutton etc) and for some it’s a potential money earner if they can buy low, sell high and profit from the additional revenue streams even if they’ve never previously set foot in the stadium before this year (Charles Green)
Charles Green stated aim is to make himself and his investors a nice profit from their investment in buying Rangers assets and rebuilding The Rangers Football Club. he can only do this by taking some percentage of the money that The Rangers fans plough in and taking that money out of the club/company and paying it to himself/his investors.
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Doesn’t matter who they are, none of them want to make a loss football is a business, in England big business which is why the owners mostly come from overseas.
Abramovich had the idea to loan almost £1 billion pounds with the proviso that they were self financing within five years, never happened.
Romanov had the idea to bring over his countrymen, give them a shop window and sell them on for profit.
Stephen Thomson would sell tomorrow if the price was right.
Charles Green is no different, if the fans are unsure what they are paying for then they are no different than any other fans group.
Celtic fans have bought season tickets for the last 3 years with the promise of a Centre half and a Centre forward, still waiting. It took Celtic 2 seasons to sign a Number 1 Goalkeeper.
Remember who owns Celtic, shareholders, most of whom have no say in the running of the club.
Fergus McCann did the exact same as Charles Green is attempting to do, make money, sell the club to the fans.
Doping of a (slightly) different kind:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19369375
To all The Rangers 2012 fans. Please note. With the cheating went the titles- they are to be expunged from the Tour history books
Nuff said?
Why are we getting links to deranged Rangers Fans’ sites!! And why are we expected to believe any of the so-called information contained within or the hysterical rantings of the author.
As regards the EBT investigations – There won’t be a fine – they would not pay it – they don’t pay remember – though they do expect paying – even when the money is not theirs to begin with!
There must be a ban on Rangers – this is beyond match fixing to completely undermining the integrity of the entire game for decades – now that really will cause ructions in the SFA: but in their key function as the guardians and protectors of The Rules of Football (only kiddin) I mean the Rangers. Ra Peepil, expect the ban to fall mysteriously on RFC (IA) who are for the purposes of debts and bans still Rangers!
As for history, tradition, policies of exclusion, fraud, blackmail, corruption, sectarian singing, drunken vile behaviour in towns close to you, and all the other associated nonsense that is and always was RFC – now that lies with Greenie’s mob!
Fifer is in denial poor soul leave him alone still he has his memories…tainted no doubt
smallteaser says:
August 24, 2012 at 15:42
There is no way the amounts of money gifted ie effectively written off via debt for equity swaps and the substantial annual losses made by Chelsea, Man City, Hearts (at a much smaller but equally substantial scale) to suggest that these clubs have been anything other than big boys toys for their owners to have spent some of their vast or considerable wealth upon.
Only until very recently these clubs have continued to spend way beyond their means year on year with the owners or their companies making up the shortfall.
Football is a big business – massive in England, less so in Scotland but every owner has a different motivation and background and broadly fall into the 3 categories i listed earlier.
All clubs might want to maximise their revenues but whether that is to 1) supplement the owners donations or 2) provide the most money for the team or else 3) to provide the greater return on investment or increase in share value depends on who the owners are and what their motivations are.
The Rangers Football Club have a very large & loyal fanbase, the Sevco Consortium of Charles Green and his merry band of investors will eventually squeeze whatever profit maximisation they can out of The Rangers fanbase and The Rangers Football Club. They are in it for the money, not for The Rangers or for Scottish Football.
The capacity for football fans to suspend/bend/distort basic factual information to suit their team’s position is incredible.
The eligibility of players is defined by the governing body and the rules of the competition entered.
In football, if you play ineligible players, you forfeit the game and a 3-0 loss for your team is recorded. If that means you lose a cup final or enough points in the league to not win it, then that is what happens.
Wishing the punishment onto solely club officials because it was their idea to cheat is simply nonsense.
It doesn’t work like that, no matter how much you want it to. Read the rules.
RFC(IA) guilt will be determined by 3 legal minds. They will look at the rules and assess whether the EBT payments and side letters constituted a breach. If there was a breach and players were ineligible there is only one course of action that can follow.
It must be difficult keeping track of whether it is better to be “oldco” or “newco” depending on the problems faced.
I have a solution.
Just accept whatever is decided and continue to support your team.
There will be no expulsion; no heavy fines and nothing that will seriously damage the prospects of Whitstheirname.
Why commit all that effort and skulduggery to keep them alive and to give them hope for the future but then hammer them with lethal punishments?
Titles may be taken because that action will not damage the actual business of Whitstheirname and the investors.
WOTTPI says:
August 24, 2012 at 15:20
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tomtom says:
August 24, 2012 at 15:04
What I was getting at is that most of the players will be wholly innocent in that, not being the sharpest knives in the drawer, they will just have taken advice on their contract and payments.
As you say in they will have the medals that say they have won leagues and cup and possible scars and injuries as a reminder of the effort asked of them but one day some punter will challenge them in a pub about tainted titles and the like.
It is not really their fault but it is them and not SDM, Bain, Ogilvie and the like who will have to face up to a bammer looking to pick a fight.
I wholly agree the record book need to be altered to highlight the wrong doing but that still doesn’t take away from the effort put in by the players.
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Sorry, don’t buy any of the argument above whatsoever.
One doesn’t need to be Stephen Hawking to work out that £10k taxed and a further £10k untaxed via an off-shore loan account ( aye,that’ll be right ) is a much more attractive deal than £20k taxed each week.
They are unlikely to bump into any bammers back in Holland,Italy or Germany, who give a toss about tainted titles or Scottish cup medals.
As for the efforts they expended, most of that was to secure a further deal from managers,directors,owners who also benefitted handsomely from a scheme we are now led to believe only arose from a clerical error.
Ask yourself how many of these financially-illiterate bumpkins would have stayed at Ibrox if Murray had taken advice and subjected 100% of their salaries to proper PAYE/NIC procedures.
The M74 would have been chocka with Beamers,Porsches and Audis heading for fresh pastures. Never undertstimate the greed of a modern day player. Ask Alan Sugar about Carlos Kickaball and tax! And RVP only left The Emirates to win trophies.
Wow, go for meeting and I’m getting it from all sides lol, suppose that’s why it’s called a blog. The guy who said I ruined any credibilty mentioning the Kelly years, I’m talking about attendances! I’ve never once on here said we aren’t guilty of paying our taxes during Shysters year, guilty as charged and deserve all we get. Murray years, hate the man, but till he is found guilty, no comment except if guilty then we should be punished. You can all call Rangers whatever rocks your boat,but it will always be Rangers to me , haven’t seen the crest on the front changed from RFC. EBT’s tax dodges, etc. happen in all business, are we guilty, don’t know, if so, we will be punished, Atheletic Madrid owe Spanish tax man €135m Barca €800m in debt, none of the big teams are not in debt to millions. Big can of worms could be opened here if the dual contracts are established as fact, half of European teams will be worried if this comes true.
If the bankers called their debts in their wouldn’t be many teams in the CL,this blog supposed to be about league change, it’s going on a tangent again, let’s keep debate to what is posted, I don’t want in a SPL2 or whatever, we start from the bottom and work our way up and hopefully the baggage of bile that I’ve seen on some sites will disappear and football grounds can become more family oriented.
Just musing on the powers of the independent panel that will sit in judgement as to whether financial cheating took place by Rangers in previous years.
This stuff about a £10 million fine being imposed, while I think it is unlikely (being effectively unworkable), did get me thinking about what punishments might befall the wannabees.
Firstly, if cheating IS established, let me say that those who will sit in judgement of the punishment will in no way be lenient. Don’t forget about how the judicial panel described Lord Nimmo Smiths report into the Craig White year – describing offences only a step down from the worst, match-fixing. That was for one year. With similar false-financing offences having taken place over a multitude of years, how will those be described?
Secondly, the independent investigation into the 2011-12 malpractice id not have the power to set the punishment (that was left to the SFA judicial panel following the investigation report), but the SPL investigation panel do. So – will a judge and QCs see title-stripping as the punishment? I doubt it – that will be seen as simple redressing of the balance – ill-gotten gains returned. So what will the punishment actually be, and who will be punished?
I hear the logic of the newco cannot be punished for the sins of the old, and I agree – if the authorities had agreed that the newco was not the oldco. But they didn’t. They tried to ensure they still had the income stream of the oldcos fans by offering them a cooked-up “membership transfer”, and all the rhetoric coming from that act suggests that everyone is expected to accept newco as the same as oldco. If so, then there is a punishable body.
Three-figure fines and a transfer ban were the punishments deemed correct by an “inside-football” judicial panel for the 2011-12 debacle – with a risk that this could have been worse had the the transfer ban not been, eventually, accepted. So wjhat kind of punishment might we see from an independent panel – one of whom is already familiar with the inner goings-on at Ibrox last year?
Could we see a ban for Sevco FC of some sort, perhaps a ban from the SPL for a period of years for the disrepute they have brought to the competition?
Thoughts?
WOTTPI says:
August 24, 2012 at 15:20
tomtom says:
August 24, 2012 at 15:04
What I was getting at is that most of the players will be wholly innocent in that, not being the sharpest knives in the drawer, they will just have taken advice on their contract and payments.
As you say in they will have the medals that say they have won leagues and cup and possible scars and injuries as a reminder of the effort asked of them but one day some punter will challenge them in a pub about tainted titles and the like.
It is not really their fault but it is them and not SDM, Bain, Ogilvie and the like who will have to face up to a bammer looking to pick a fight.
I wholly agree the record book need to be altered to highlight the wrong doing but that still doesn’t take away from the effort put in by the players.
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In my opinion the players have no, or very little, defence. Did it not occur strange to them that, on joining Rangers, they would be getting paid in a manner that they had never experienced before. Did no-one ask questions or look into the legalities of this. Ignorance is no excuse. If they didn’t know something was iffy then they bloody well should have. If I go to court on a speeding charge and tell the judge that although I was clocked at 90 mph my speedo only showed me doing 70 mph he’ll ask me a simple question “Mr Tomtom did it not occur strange to you that whilst apparently only travelling at 70 mph you were overtaking every other car on the motorway. Did it not occur to you to have your speedo checked?” and then find me guilty as charged. I might even have a letter from the cars manufacturere confirming that the speedo was faulty but that would be to no avail. The players and their agents might have been quite happy to have “comfort” letters absolving them from any future tax liabilities but the fact that they needed such letters should have alerted them that something wasn’t quite right. That they chose to look the other way makes them an accessory. It does not release them from the consequences of the part they played
The press etc are suggesting that no stripping of titles or honours should take place as that would be unfair on the players. The stripping of titles is a punishment for the club not the players. In the same way that the players are able to enjoy the collective benefits of a clubs success they must also take responsibility for the wrongdoings of the club that they benefitted, unfairly, from. If the players have a problem with that then let them sue the club. Personal disappointment should not be allowed to sway the laws of the game.
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 13:14
RFC Fight Back blog
_____________________________________________________________________________
One does indeed shake one’s head in sheer incredulity.
Admittedly an isolated example from the blog but I believe it encapsulates the current Rangers’ mindset – we have done little wrong and do not deserve the condemnation of others. This is the offering from, one presumes, an articulate and thinking Bear.
The blogger writes….
“On 12 June 2012 Rangers Football Club were unable to exit administration, a CVA having been rejected by HMRC. Not even a full week later do the SPL proclaim “Rangers have a case to answer” on the issue of duel contracts. Scottish football at the time is in complete disarray, with a controversial vote on Rangers being re-admitted to the SPL due to take place on the 4th of July you would think the SPL have bigger things to worry about than alleged wrong doings regarding undeclared payments?“
“I’ve spent countless hours researching, telephoning, emailing and letter writing and following every lead I can, and it has produced some interesting results.“
After umpteen months of the FTT(T) process being underway, the blogger has failed after ‘countless hours’ to understand that it is not the SPL who are concerned with the EBT ‘undeclared’ payments. The SPL’s concern is the issuing of ‘side contracts/letters’ which accompany the EBT arrangements – the latter being a matter which is the concern of the FTT(T) who will present their findings in due course. Following a H & McL preliminary investigation there is ‘prima facie’ evidence that the SPL’s concern is more than justified.
When the absolute and unavoidable truth of the side letters/contracts and subsequent SFA player registration issue is revealed then the justified retribution heading towards the blue entity is of the “you ain’t seen nothing’ yet’ variety.
Some Bears wonder why they are viewed with disdain in Scotia. Time to get hold of this rotten, corrupt entity and eliminate it with extreme prejudice when even the so-called ‘thinking ones’ are seriously ‘at it’.
Charlie Brown says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:07
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All this is true but you get chairmen who honestly want to see the club succeed while making a profit for themselves. Some have damaged their clubs by being overambitious (or sometimes incompetent) and in a few cases some have deliberately ripped off thier clubs – no name no packdrill (whatever that means but the names C*******k and T***** L***** spring to mind.
The question is where does Green come in this scenario? I doubt he is bothered about NewRangers succeeeding in the old way (i.e. winning nearly eveything and doing well in Europe) that would cost too much and may be impossible these days anyway.
He will undoubtedly want some success or at least an appearance of coming success because that is needed to get STs and Share issues working (and anything else he can think of). If this works and he can get them into the SPL looking strong or strongish he can probably sell on at a good profit and will be happy.
But what if things go wrong? What if ti’s more of a struggle and crowds drop, the share issue is a disappointment or any of a lot of other things that could happen. Will he sell off to a new group at a minimum price, for his money back or a small loss? Or will he sell the assets, strip everything and leave a skeleton for the Rangers-minded to fight over?
Now I’m not saying the last scennario is the most likely but surely since everything about his doings (and everyone involved in the fiasco since CW and before) seems murky how can anyone be sure what will happen? Surely it’s something for the bears to worry about?
The Iceman says:
August 24, 2012 at 13:59
The whole exercise in semantics here is nonsense.
There are now no football clubs in Scotland. Football is a sport based upon the rules of the game…
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Iceman, being objective, I concur with your prior 2 blunt – but accurate – posts.
In your opinion, what would need to happen to encourage you to return to Scottish football ?
[Apologies if you have previously covered this, but I’m intermittently catching up with this site.]
‘The Lance Armstrong Years- If found guilty ,titles must be erased’
F.A.O Messrs. Regan & Doncaster.trust you are reading the BBC Sports section, in between your busy administrative schedule.
Sets the tone nicely for pending decision making,don’t you think chaps? Lest we,rather you, forget the phrase,sporting integrity.
Has anybody got a link to last night’s SSB,for some reason it wont play on my laptop.
Tic 6709 says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:57
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Has anybody got a link to last night’s SSB,for some reason it wont play on my laptop.
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iTunes podcast ?
smartie1947 says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:35
tomtom says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:47
How about looking at it like endowment mortgages.
Plenty people, including myself when younger, were mis-sold a product, the claims made and the return offer were found to be wrong. Partially it was all based on previous figures and I had seen people like my bosses getting their house paid off and collecting big lump sums. However the FSA’s and insurance companies and the likes got found out and had to pay back customers.
I wouldn’t say I was duped as I know investments go up and down but like many people I just went along with product that was very popular at the time.
The players were just taking the advice of various people all of whom were telling them it was legal. Knowing that many other businesses and high paid people have offshore accounts and other tax avoidance schemes who can blame them for not wanting a piece of the action.
I remember seeing a programme where Neil ‘Razor’ Ruddock said when he retired from playing he didn’t even know about how to get a dentist. The football clubs had taken care of everything, right down to washing their cars.
I agree that the modern player wants there pound of flesh but my guess is that a good deal of that will be driven by their agents. That will be an agent who can sign you up to a deal one season and be offski to new clients the next.
Yes they should take some responsibility for their own affairs but as discussed many are not the brightest people you will meet.
I have no problem with title stripping and the players will have to deal with that but I don’t think they are the main players in the conspiracy and can see why some may themselves feel cheated.
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:40
You are correct the post is about the future of Scottish Football.
The whole sports market is a busted flush. Athletes, golfers, tennis players, footballers etc are overpaid. Too much power and influence is given to a handful of sports, organistions and members within those select groups.
In terms of Scottish Football it should be about getting back to grass routes.
Developing our own players and building a training and playing ethos and league system that would take our young talent to a point where, despite our small nation, we can once again punch above our weight in european club competitions and on the international stage.
Most clubs probably want to do that as it fits in with their economic model.
However the teams that are least likely to play that game are Celtic and Rangers.
Even in Div 3 and at a time when finances have to be watched we hear of numerous young foreign lads being ushered in through the gates of Murray Park to bee seen by Sally.
Surely with all the coaching talent available the Murray Park operation can bring on a few local lads to the standard required to play in a team capable of winning Div 3.
In the bigger picture the last 20 or so years have been a failure, so why are T’Rangers hell bent of going down the same road, yet again, other than for their own limited self interest?
iki says:
August 24, 2012 at 17:03
I just got it via the Clyde site
http://www.clyde1.com/on-air/ssb-listen-again/
It wasn’t really that exciting until the last 30mins or so, maybe even the last 15.
iki @17.03.
Thanks for that iki,my education is never ending.
WOTTPI says:
August 24, 2012 at 17:15
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smartie1947 says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:35
tomtom says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:47
How about looking at it like endowment mortgages.
Plenty people, including myself when younger, were mis-sold a product, the claims made and the return offer were found to be wrong. Partially it was all based on previous figures and I had seen people like my bosses getting their house paid off and collecting big lump sums. However the FSA’s and insurance companies and the likes got found out and had to pay back customers.
I wouldn’t say I was duped as I know investments go up and down but like many people I just went along with product that was very popular at the time.
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They will not be stripped of titles for operating an illegal EBT scheme. They will be stripped of titles because they paid the players in a manner contrary to the laws of the game. People who were sold inappropriate financial products got recompensed. If the players want to keep their honours then they should pay back the tax. If they do that then I don’t have a problem with them keeping their “history”
Its official. Titles Stripped. Cheat banned
SFA. Are you listening?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19369375
Guardian reports on Argentinian authorities finding (what sounds like ridiculously blatant) tax dodging in football transfers: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/feedarticle/10406878
Elsewhere, @changeFIFA on twitter is picking up interesting (scary) stuff from the Italian football corruption case.
Same old… We need much more rigorous financial transparency rules if there’s any chance of keeping powerful clubs to some basic standards.
Are the MSM finally cutting the strings of the parachute?
BBC Scotland covered Celtic and Sevco this evening. During the Celtic film footage, Neil Lennon was at training and was shown schooling Rogne.
During the Sevco footage, Ally McCoist was at training, looking utterly preoccupied, pacing up and down the side-line, answering his mobile phone.
WOTTPI says:
August 24, 2012 at 17:32
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Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:40
You are correct the post is about the future of Scottish Football.
The whole sports market is a busted flush. Athletes, golfers, tennis players, footballers etc are overpaid. Too much power and influence is given to a handful of sports, organistions and members within those select groups.
In terms of Scottish Football it should be about getting back to grass routes.
Developing our own players and building a training and playing ethos and league system that would take our young talent to a point where, despite our small nation, we can once again punch above our weight in european club competitions and on the international stage.
Most clubs probably want to do that as it fits in with their economic model.
However the teams that are least likely to play that game are Celtic and Rangers.
Even in Div 3 and at a time when finances have to be watched we hear of numerous young foreign lads being ushered in through the gates of Murray Park to bee seen by Sally.
Surely with all the coaching talent available the Murray Park operation can bring on a few local lads to the standard required to play in a team capable of winning Div 3.
In the bigger picture the last 20 or so years have been a failure, so why are T’Rangers hell bent of going down the same road, yet again, other than for their own limited self interest?
You are 100% correct, that is what I want to see also, bring the youth through, if we can’t do it now, we never will, there should be no pressure on teams bringing through youth and I hope we should set an example, we don’t need any other players from freebies.
Fifer says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:40
2 7 Rate This
“You can all call Rangers whatever rocks your boat,but it will always be Rangers to me , haven’t seen the crest on the front changed from RFC.”
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Not for me Fifer. The financial problems are just more wrong-doing on top of the uber-unionism, which is an obvious politicization of football, the ongoing bi-gotry, the threats to all and sundry, and the utter denial that Rangers 1872 are no more. Green and others insist on history without debt – that’s just a massive tax dodge. The current Rangers are barely a month old and they are still intimidating Scottish football supporters and clubs. It was a glorious chance to create a new club with a clean break with the past. Alas, it all looks so familiar.
“EBT’s tax dodges, etc. happen in all business, are we guilty, don’t know, if so, we will be punished, Atheletic Madrid owe Spanish tax man €135m Barca €800m in debt, none of the big teams are not in debt to millions. Big can of worms could be opened here if the dual contracts are established as fact, half of European teams will be worried if this comes true.”
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Absolutely right, there is so much financial injustice in football. I reckon we could see a financial collapse in football akin to the financial crisis which hit us as a knock-on from the missold mortgages in the US. But, and it’s a big but, two wrongs don’t make a right. If Scotand acts with clean hands now it could be an example to all of Europe. A shining example. We could win universal respect, but as things stand, well …
“If the bankers called their debts in their wouldn’t be many teams in the CL,this blog supposed to be about league change, it’s going on a tangent again, let’s keep debate to what is posted …”
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Correct again, so why distract everyone with the ‘you’ll never believe what this guy down the pub told me’? story? To be honest, you’ve set the blog off on a tangent and are now chiding others for being off-topic. Some people here will find that a tad disingenuous.
Tic 6709 says:
August 24, 2012 at 16:57
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Has anybody got a link to last night’s SSB,for some reason it wont play on my laptop.
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There is a podcast on iTunes. I download it to my iPod. My dog loves it, means she gets a long walk. I should call them and say so.
Another CMcL exclusive?
Chris McLaughlin@BBCchrismclaug
The largest single shareholder of #Rangers revealed… #BBCSport soon.
I assumed “Fifer” was a mark of his origin, now I see it’s more likely to be his hobby 🙂
easyJambo says:
August 24, 2012 at 18:57
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Another CMcL exclusive?
Chris McLaughlin@BBCchrismclaug
The largest single shareholder of #Rangers revealed… #BBCSport soon.
====================
I hope he checks his sources this time and not rely on RM
Some side issues creeping in (which I’m afraid to say I contributed to myself in a small way) so in attempt to redeem myself….
Is there some way of having a document like the spreadsheet someone had before only a text doc where on could edit some kind of proposal for Football reform. (Obviously some of the stuff up here already but developed a bit more).
Could we find folk it might be worth sending something like this to (once it developed into something useable) – not Regan etc. but someone in the public eye who might be trustworthy. Also maybe a list of SFL (and maybe 1 or 2 SPL) board members who might be worth sending such a thing too.
In fact it occurs to me there are 1 or 2 SFL guys it might be worth asking to contribute ideas. If guys like them and the odd reliable politician (OK maybe not) or other good guys such as a Cosgrove or Cowan were asked to contribute would that not make any proposals more likely to be listened to?
One thing I think attention has to be paid to is the danger of reforms being made after the horse has bolted. (One could imagine a scenario where say it turns out Green and co do something dodgy – and totally against any reformed rules – but get away with it because reform is delayed until Newco and Green have got everything they want.
That may only be avoidable (if at all) by breaking what we want into urgent and less urgent categories and for instance pushing right now for more financial transparency and stricter control of clubs finances and leaving other stuff like reform of the 3 authorities into 1 body (which would take a lot of time and effort) till later. I don’t mean dropping anything, but while working on the whole thing have 1 or 2 issues to really push for now.
So, worth thinking of or just massive TD??
Chris McLaughlin@BBCchrismclaug
The largest single shareholder of #Rangers revealed… #BBCSport soon.
========
Neil Doncaster?
From the beeb
Rangers: Ibrox club’s largest shareholder revealed
By Chris McLaughlin
Senior Football Reporter, BBC Scotland BBC Scotland can reveal that a Dubai-based businessman is currently the single largest shareholder in Rangers.
Arif Naqvi, chief executive of private equity firm Abraaj Capital, owns just under 18% after agreeing to invest £2m back in June.
Naqvi is the man behind Blue Pitch Holdings but BBC Scotland understands that he has a personal holding in the club.
Rangers boss Ally McCoist also owns a stake in the club.
McCoist has stake of around 4.5% in Rangers
Newcastle owner Mike Ashley is expected to announce his £1m investment next week, securing around 9% of the club.
The way was paved for that investment after Rangers ripped up their deal with retailers JJB Sports in favour of Ashley’s Sports Direct company.
Charles Green took control of the club on 14 June, announcing his intention to secure a number of investors from across the globe.
He has always insisted that no one individual will own more than 15%.
Other investors include Imran Ahmad and Richard Hughes from Zeus Capital who own 9.8% each,
Gers boss McCoist has also bought into the consortium and owns a share of about 4.5%.
Scottish-based businessman Ian Hart, who was part of the Blue Knights group, has a shareholding of 1.3%.
The shares will be diluted though after Green launches an IPO share issue allowing fans to buy into the club.
Tom Urie?
Wow, so quiet, take it google is busy! Lol
Naqvi wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arif_Naqvi
Strange that the guy from down south got 10% for £1 million but the other guy gets 18% for £2 million!!
It’s Malcolm Murray using a Fake Bake
why do sevco need a share issue if theyve no debt? what will the cash be used for?
in my opinion these are important questions for sevco fans. pity the media wont help them
Maybe Sally got his 4.5% in lieu of wages, bonus or EBT 🙂
Looks like he is a hero as well:
He apparently helped to gain the release of hostages in Somalia:
KARACHI: Sindh Governor Dr Ishratul Ebad said on Tuesday all the arrangements have been finalised to secure the release of the crew of merchant navy ship, MV Al-Bedo, from the captivity of Somali pirates, and they are in contact with pirates for the purpose.
Talking to the media along with the family members of the hostages of Al-Bedo at the Governor House, he thanked President Asif Zardari, Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) chief Altaf Hussain, noted social personalities Malik Muhammad Riaz and Arif Naqvi for their cooperation which, he said, has enabled them that the release of captives is becoming possible. Ebad hoped that the hostages will return home very soon.
…
The Governor said Muhammad Riaz and Arif Naqvi have extended substantial financial support as they did earlier for the release of hostages from the captivity of Somali pirates
To achieve real and meaningful change in Scottish football, will require men of courage and vision, who can see the bigger picture and bring about the revolution that is required and that we all want to see
Sadly, we do not have people of that quality running our game at the moment
What we have is a collection of individuals, who when presented with a golden opportunity to bring about real change with the demise of RFC(IA), sat around a table inside Hampden, and filled their pampers, whilst sticking their thumbs in their mouths and shouting “Mammy”
Faced with the demise of RFC(IA), which was due in part to a broken system, what did our heroes decide to do ?
They decided to replace the broken system, with the same broken system
They tried to tart it up somewhat by pretending to get tough with the miscreant and its successor, but in truth, nothing changed
A wheel had broken and come off the wagon, and they decided to put it back on again with little or no repair, and hope nobody would notice
Any reconstruction proposed by these bodies, will not be for the benefit of our game, but for the benefit of one club only
Reconstruction was never really on the agenda, until Sevco became old club with the blessing of those bodies, and were forced into Division 3
Before we can start thinking about real change, we must be rid of those who currently slither and crawl their way along Hampden’s corridors
That has to be the priority, and the only people who can do that, and start the revolution are the member clubs
It really is up to them
Where’s Corsica when you need him?
https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/never-a-penalty-19-2/comment-page-68/#comment-127175
easyJambo says:
August 24, 2012 at 19:18
Arif Naqvi, chief executive of private equity firm Abraaj Capital, owns just under 18% after agreeing to invest £2m back in June.
Charles Green…has always insisted that no one individual will own more than 15%.
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In the topsy-turvy upside down world of CG, 18% must be less than 15% then?
easyJambo says:
August 24, 2012 at 20:40
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And here………
https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/never-a-penalty-19-2/comment-page-52/#comments
Insomniac says:
05/07/2012 at 1:38 pm
corsica says:
05/07/2012 at 10:32 am
For those of you searching…
Forget the connection with Lagardere – anything there is entirely coincidental.
Suggest that you focus on Formation Group (which bought Paul Stretford’s group, not the other way round), Morpheus and Alessandro Celano.
Charles Green was chair at Formation Group until February. It is run by an Irish (Limerick?) family which seems to have substantial private, offshore wealth (not sure how much) and has diversified and contracted quite alarmingly over past five years or so whilst Green was in charge.
Morpheus is interesting because Ellis has mentioned them a few times in other contexts – I can’t recall if he knows them or is involved or just wanted to get in on their act.
I’ve never heard of Celano and nobody I know has dug up anything on him.
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corsica – can you review the overnight postings (summarised below) and comment? It might save someone a little time if some of this stuff can be confirmed or eliminated from enquiries.Thank you!
Blue Pitch Holdings……..Alessandro Celano……..Orchadia SA…….Naqvi Arif Masood.
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=152102554&pid=59694121&authType=name&authToken=xx2c&trk=pbmap http://www.moneyhouse.ch/en/u/v/orchadia_sa_CH-660.1.902.009-5.htm
Alessandro Celano is a director of 1508 London ltd, which has connections with a company called Morpheus Developements, a property developement firm albeit in the luxury end of the market. However on of 1508 London’s directors, Alexandra de Blonay, is also a director of a firm called Morpheus 1508. Who have a Giles Alexander Green listed as a director. Not 100% sure he’s the son of Charles Alexander Green but it’s a fair bet.
Masood alleged to have connections with Asif Ali Zardari
Do you think Charlie will be happy that this information has been revealed ?
What a tangled web 🙂
Insomniac says: August 24, 2012 at 20:48
The Giles Green at Morpheus 1508 is listed on Duedil as aged 42. Charles Green is listed as being 59, so it is possible but not likely that he is Chuck’s son. Could be a nephew or other relative of course.
Post from “Toki” on RM on 20th July
http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=231472&view=findpost&p=1060241485
I have been asked to say how I can see a way back. That is very difficult to see at present.
I would hope as a first step that the FTT verdict ( where is it?) will expose beyond all doubt the true nature of Murray’s Rangers to wider Scottish society and cause a wave of revulsion to the whole idea and notion of “Rangers”and their grip and control over Scottish football. This revulsion would lead to sufficient political pressure to have a “Leveson” -style judicial enquiry into the governance of Scottish football with agreement from the discredited governing bodies that they accept its findings and that they as individuals understand that they can have no part in that future.
Ideally BDO would expose and bring to justice all of those who acted criminally in this escapade – Rangers directors, major shareholder ex-managers etc whose reputation would be forever destroyed.
This, coupled with the above, would lead the editors and owners of the MSM to remove their present donkeys masquerading as reporters on football to be replaced by eager, iconoclastic youths filled with zeal and a desire for enlightnement.
Nimmo Smith would strip Rangers of the titles won under the EBT and further conclude that such was the nature of the sustained cheating that a significant ban of say a decade’s duration would be appropriate and that he suggest a further investigation into the earlier conduct of Murray during the period of the wee tax case and even earlier to investigate the legitimacy of any titles won then.
This ban is implemented by the Scottish football authorities immediately and SEVCO as a consequence folds. The Rangers fans accept that this fate is just, seek salvation from their fellow fans and denounce all sectarian singing and attitudes, and resolve to set up a brand new club to enter at the lower reaches of the game.
If the above happens we will all be back happy and contented.
None of the above will happen however, some weasel words and promises as to future conduct will be accepted by the SPL and SFA as “punishment” for Rangers whose titles back to 2000 will be stripped.
The MSM and Rangers will use this as evidence of an anti-rangers bias and their fans will be fed and embittered through the leagues in record time. The BDO stuff will be retranslated as Murray and the board attacking Rangers – who were the “real” victims- by all in our press.
In 3 years a vicious, embittered Rangers will re-emerge in the SPL which will be as bitter, poisonous and riven a league as any in history. Interest will wane and the relative status of the game will go into accelerated decline. Finally it will become a peripheral marginal part of our society populated by a few diehards and embittered and divisive fans of Celtic and Rangers whose attendances of 20-25 thousand will mostly be filled with the worst elements of both clubs’ support.
Not looking forward to it.
I am not coming back any time soon.
Famous, influential multiple winner of prestige championship to be stripped of award due to gaining an unfair advantage from means deemed illegal to the sporting authorities.
If only a UK headline.
It seems our US cousins have marched well ahead with the sporting integrity cause.
The pattern repeats itself. One poster swamps the blog with posts containing a mix of fact, fiction and spurious tales. Different name, same show.
Insomniac says:
August 24, 2012 at 20:48
0 0 Rate This
easyJambo says:
August 24, 2012 at 20:40
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Suggest that you focus on Formation Group (which bought Paul Stretford’s group, not the other way round), Morpheus and Alessandro Celano.
__________________________________
Stratford eh? One of the dodgiest guys I have ever had he misfortune to shake hands with. We agreed a deal, shook hands, he immediately went back down south and reneged on it.
About as trustworthy as a lance Armstrong dope test.
See what happens when this place has a “bone to chew on”
It springs into life and the trolls become irrelevant and seen for what they are (a distraction to the job in hand)
KEEP DIGGING AND SHINING THE LIGHT OF TRUTH ON THEM FOLKS.
Ps can someone put up smoke signals for corsica and Hugh McEwan
OT, but here is a response for the deluded ones still trying to claim that their ‘history’ is intact!
I am going to buy an ocean liner and call it ‘The’ HMS Titanic, do it up to make it look exactly the same and tell people it is the actual Titanic, but everyone would know I was talking pish, coz I couldn’t buy the HISTORY of the actual HMS Titanic. And let’s face it, why would I want to? ‘Coz jist like RFC, it sank without trace!
Hope that clears it up for you…
61Pat
Why should we trust Corsica ?
In his own words as per easyjambo´s post at 20:40
“Celano would appear to be just an investment banker who looks after private wealth (family trusts and the like). So somebody is behind him but it isn’t going to be Arif Naqvi (just trust me on this – he is not stupid enough to believe anything Green or Zeus will have told him)…no, this is much simpler.”
Oh, what fun tonight! Just been expanding my financial knowledge, reading up up IPOs (Initial Public Offerings of shares), and came across this little gem:
“…Being on a major stock exchange carries a considerable amount of prestige. In the past, only private companies with strong fundamentals could qualify for an IPO and it wasn’t easy to get listed.
The internet boom changed all this. Firms no longer needed strong financials and a solid history to go public. Instead, IPOs were done by smaller startups seeking to expand their businesses. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to expand, but most of these firms had never made a profit and didn’t plan on being profitable any time soon. Founded on venture capital funding, they spent like Texans trying to generate enough excitement to make it to the market before burning through all their cash. In cases like this, companies might be suspected of doing an IPO just to make the founders rich. This is known as an exit strategy, implying that there’s no desire to stick around and create value for shareholders. The IPO then becomes the end of the road rather than the beginning.
How can this happen? Remember: an IPO is just selling stock. It’s all about the sales job. If you can convince people to buy stock in your company, you can raise a lot of money.
Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/university/ipo/ipo.asp#ixzz24V5dVzFc
Kinda bug.ered that post up! But I like the ‘exit strategy’ bit. Surely not our Charles, and our Sally?
TSFM: if you are at home, could you delete the big duplication in my post of 22.16.,please. Mouse must have run away with me!
Re: the shareholdings – could this be another error of judgement on McCoist’s part ?
Assuming the 4.5% quoted for McCoist is correct, I would guess (?) he was awarded this as a freebie to keep him onside with CG and his backers – and perhaps also to encourage McCoist to advise the fans to start buying season tickets ?
But, if/when The Rangers hit the buffers and Green et al have done a runner with their profit, what will McCoist say ?
Unlike before, he cannot blame the ‘owners’ and also he can’t plead ignorance of financial matters as he is ‘just the football manager’.
It would appear that McCoist is now bought and paid for by CG’s team – and when it all goes pear-shaped it will only be McCoist left to answer the questions from the angry bears.
Sally having a 4% stake in 2012 fc open up a whole new line of enquiry ,
When was it bought
Why was it bought
Who put the money up to buy it
If 10% stakes are changing hands for 1m that put’s Sally in for just short of 1/2m ,now why would you give someone who up to 3 weeks ago you publicly stated you did not know if you trusted £500,000.
Just like the ticketus investment ,strange isn’t the word