Imagine you are one of those people who have a nice big mahogany desk, with a gloss finish set in a big corner suite office which comes complete with a picture window, a break out area, a couch to lie down on in moments of stress, a quietly playing stereo sound system, fridge, plush carpet and loads of wee executive toy like things of your choosing.
Imagine, just for a moment, that outside your office you have the executive German car that is almost compulsory when you work in such an office. Added to that, you also have the benefit of a large six figure salary, a pension scheme, substantial holidays, a bonus scheme which nicely enhances your already excellent salary, fantastic perks and trips abroad as part of your job, and that you fill a position which leads to invitations to the most fantastic events, do’s, and sporting occasions imaginable.
Imagine the respect you must command from your peers, your family and friends.
Imagine the awe that you must be held in at dinner parties and social events when you are introduced to strangers for the first time– strangers who will have heard your name, and know of your position in society.
Imagine the personal and professional respect you must command from others in your field — or any other field for that matter — when you go to conferences and meetings in foreign cities and with foreign counterparts.
Imagine the envy that many others sometimes feel for someone who has succeeded in business and society to this extent.
Then imagine that the big office described above is at Hampden?
What a bummer!!
Now, I mention all of this because if you were one of the big cheeses at at Hampden, I wonder just what you do with yourself when the large rosewood door of your office closes behind you when you get in there each morning?
Maybe you make a coffee? Read the papers? Check the mail? Go to a meeting about the latest in 3G or is it 4G pitches being installed in a ground or two in the Shetlands?
However, no matter what you do and who you speak to THAT file is always there— always at the corner of your desk, neatly up there at the top left hand corner just beyond the desk top golf set and above the Newton’s cradle with the balls that spell your name or whatever.
That file– the one that relates to the finances, compliance, directors details and ownership of Rangers Football Club.
At least that is what the top of the file says. Though to be fair it is a continuation file… continuing from the one that was opened two months ago and is fit to burst already with reports, memo’s and letters- which in turn was a continuation of the one before that and the one before that and the one before that and on and on.
Maybe that is not the correct name for the club?
Maybe that is something that can be clarified at the next meeting with the Directors and CEO of the club— whoever they might be at that time?
No matter where you go in the room, you can see that file from every position. There is just no getting away from it.
Who owns The Rangers?
There are all sorts of reports, share prospectuses, memos, deeds, documents, contracts, letters, e-mails all asking the same thing. And there you are— none the wiser.
Please clarify this, please clarify that, are there any signed but unrecorded documents, or contracts?
Are the Companies House records accurate? is the Land register accurate?
At the end of the day you just lie on the couch, place a cold cloth over your head and hope it will all go away.
Then the accounts come out. Oh the figures are shocking and they confirm that most of the people you negotiated with to get their team playing football somewhere after the collapse and liquidation of RFC PLC have exited stage left with huge severance cheques.
They now live in France, or Singapore or the Cayman Islands and you can bet they will never darken a door in Mount Florida on a wet February morning ever again.
But that is not the worst of it — the bleeding internet is full of leaks— documents, letters, e-mails, contracts, company forms and all sorts.
You wouldn’t mind if the documents leaked were ones that you had seen before, but in the main they are things that you have never seen and never had disclosed.Every day someone calls and asks ” Have you seen the latest?” and of course you haven’t so you stand there feeling like a complete chookie!!!
Every day you call the compliance and monitoring guys:
” Eh have you seen this? Have you been notified that he is a director?”
” No boss – never seen that? Never knew it existed?”
” So who owns the company if that is correct?”
” Eh Dunno boss — not sure of anything over there any more!”
“Ok have you checked the titles with the lawyers?”
” yes but the title as registered looks ok, but there is no guarantee that it hasn’t been sold to someone else and they have not registered their title for the moment!”
” Have you spoken to the lawyers? Have you asked for clarification?”
” yes Boss — the Lawyers don’t really answer our questions– well at least not fully!”
” What about these accounts – there are 57 pages there – what do they tell us?”
” Well they tell us that the figures are not good, boss, but not immediately critical.”
” Are they paying their taxes?”
” Appear to be boss– but we can’t be sure.can we? We were told they were paying their taxes before and … well you know the rest.”
” Ok, but Pinsent masons rule out the Whyte guy being involved?”
” Ah well not really – they don’t go into the company he says he owns – they sort of ignore that part!”
” But they carried out an independent investigation, surely?”
” True boss, but the independent investigation was only into what the non independent guys wanted investigating Boss, and they appear to have finished their report without speaking to all the witnesses.”
” Ok but the accounts – what do the accounts say about Whyte being the real owner — I mean they are from Deloittes for God sake – they must make the position clear?”
” Well we have had a look at them boss and in that regard the accounts are King Kenny!”
” King Kenny?”
” Aye King Kenny Boss – with regard to Whyte’s claim they say ” maybes aye– maybes naw” and they leave it at that”
” Jesus, well have you written to the Directors?”
” Aye – half the letters have come back marked “Gone away”.Boss”
” Do you know who the shareholders are?”
” Naw Boss”
“Do they have a bank account and a bank reference ?”
” Naw Boss”
” Who’s coming to the next meeting from their side?”
” Dunno Boss”
” Is there anything you can tell me that lets me close this file and get it off my desk for good?”
” Naw boss”
” Well who did we grant membership to last year?”
” The first time or the second time Boss?”
” What do you mean – first time or second time?”
” We started out granting membership to one company and then changed it to another”
” Two companies – owned by the same people?”
” Dunno Boss– but they sounded the same.”
” And which one got a licence?”
” Dunno boss”
” What?”
“Was the licence not granted by Mr Longmuir boss? And then ratified by us as a formality?”
” Why are you asking me, you are the compliance guys?”
” Aye but we were told it would all be ok by … well by someone ….. and by Mr Longmuir”
” When did he tell you that?”
” Told us one day at Ibrox Boss – I think it was at half time?”
” Half Time?”
” Aye – though it might have been full time boss ….. free bevvy and sandwiches so can’t quite remember”.
” Well who has the paperwork?”
” Lost boss”
” Lost?”
” Yes Boss – it was meant to come up from the SFL but never appeared. Turns out that the SFL was run as an unincorporated body and none of its records etc, are intact or have ever been audited …… Boss. Mr Ballantyne might have them in his garage Boss! ……… Boss? ….. are you still there? Boss?”
The man in the corner suite leaves the phone dangling, goes to his fridge for a cold drink and switches on the executive plasma hanging on the wall by way of the remote control on his desk.
The screen beams into life and an advert for the brand of soft drink that he is holding fills the wall. The very same brand of soft drink that has just been announced as the official soft drink to partner Scottish Football.
The executive, looks at his drinks can, looks at the file on the corner of the desk, looks at the abandoned phone and finally looks at the screen just as the speakers spell out clearly ………….. the benefits of coming from a long line of Fannies.
This is Scottish Football Administration in the 21st Century.
I’ve just finished listening to Chick’s hysterical ravings on podcast. Tom English certainly put him in his box overall but missed a spectacular open goal with the Ibrox puppet’s claim that “Rangers had reduced the debt from £31m to £18m” when Lloyds pulled the plug. That was the bank debt only, Chick, old bean!
Even after Rangers 1872 (deceased) had paid off the bank (using TicketUs’s money), they went bust owing c. £145m to creditors, only one of whom was HMRC. Is Chick seriously trying to tell us that Craig Whyte was responsible for that debt during his short (but apparently still lengthening 😆 ) time in charge?
Good, but can do better, Tom.
The previous share issue worked , in part, because the Shares were granted EIS status. Which is why AIM is used, as quoted companies are not exempted if they are on AIM or Plus
The following link to HMRC explains a few things. It also throws some light on the tizzy RIFC got themselves into over whether Sevco 5088 was a subsidiary or not.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/eis/part2/2-1.htm
That’s a girl Charlotte. Keep them coming.
If the overall plan was for the spivs to have their fun and then hand the shell back to the blazers I wonder if there is a problem with semantics
Shell def 1. Integral core structure
Shell def 2. Empty brittle vessel, past sell by date, impossible to put back together again. 😈
Barcabhoy,” To be fair ” surely you’re kidding.
The simple fact of the matter is ALL of the Rat Pack have told Blatant Lies since this omnishambles came about.
They have deliberately told lies for various agenda’s,there is Not One journalist out there who does not know that Sevco is a new club,there is not one journalist who does not know that the responsibility for rangers (IL) liquidation lies at D Murray’s door.
The MSM are guilty of misleading the public on a colossal scale just to sell papers when telling the truth would have sold even more, whose agenda?
Because the MSM have told the lies there are many gullible people out there who believed them.
They are still distorting the truth, look at the mince that has been printed about King.
There has been plenty posted on here last night and this morning about Chic Youngs performance, I’m happy to say when I heard the make-up of the panel I took my dogs for a walk in the pouring rain rather than be tempted to listen and risk more blood vessels.
In my mind the MSM are responsible in part for some of the animosity that has been allowed to fester.
It would have been better for the Sevco fans to be told the truth from the outset rather than have them cling on to any passing straw.
So now when we are at end-game 2, the odd member of our Free press decides to tell a few home truths,too late in my opinion. We deserve better than that from a Free press.
Not even all the kings horses etc etc
Sorry, couldn’t resist
Eeramacaroonbar
Do you have a link to the CF twitter page ?
Can’t seem to google it.
mmm If you are a world class expert in reputational management, working for someone who is looking to offload a loss making company that will still present serious reputational risks to your client, even after it was sold, and you knew that a potential buyer had a, shall we say, colourful past, would you not have a professional responsibility to brief your client in full about this potential buyer?
wildwood says: (12)
October 17, 2013 at 11:57 am
What are the chances of a further share issue being a success at this point? Will the market respond? – I cant see it but then I didn’t see the initial one being a success.
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It wasn’t, the target was £27m and they only got £22m
£10m worth of shares was available to the fans and they took £5m.
The costs were about 25% of the funds raised rather than about 5%.
Which part was a “success”.
This is one of the real issues just now. They clearly budgeted for a certain income, which included £27m from the IPO. Had that been available they would have made it to the next round of season tickets with no problem, assuming the spending levels and money being “siphoned off” remained the same.
Once again the support, which talks a lot and threatens people, never actually came across with the money when their new club was starting up. Another tradition brought from the old one presumably.
RM back up, and the civil war between the fans is hotting up, The FF mob may be cock a hoop, but the RMers are not happy bears at all!
Charlotte the harlot latest account has been suspended on twitter already!
Scapa
RM back up, and the civil war between the fans is hotting up, The FF mob may be cock a hoop, but the RMers are not happy bears at all!
——————————————————-
Cock a hoop about what ?
So CF account was up this morning and suspended after one tweet ?
Posted on KDS:
Email from Chris Morgan to Malcolm Murray,
don’t know if it’s genuine though
http://i.imgur.com/NsEBEJ5.jpg
Greenock Jack says: (55)
October 17, 2013 at 12:45 pm
The departure of Mr Mather
For me the interesting aspect of Chic’s contribution last night was, much like Keith Jackson on Monday, the involuntary and unmistakable reverting to type. When faced with inconvenient facts Chic merely stated his own position in an ever louder and more aggressive tone…..at the end of the day he is a very angry bear who takes exception when anyone dares to suggest that the rules which govern us all in and out of football, apply to the Govan club…the same old sense of entitlement that sank the ship last time. At times he sounded desperate as he lashed out forlornly at the fact of history. One other thing he did not mention, at all ever, the E word, he just kept promoting King and Murray…… perhaps Chic considers King is a paragon of social responsibility compared to certain other parties who have their feet under the table. 😉
Greenock Jack says: (54)
October 17, 2013 at 12:26 pm
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Eeramacaroonbar
Do you have a link to the CF twitter page ?
Can’t seem to google it.
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I seen it on my twitter feed but it was already up for about an hour. When I tried to go on to her twitter feed it said account suspended. She went under CharlotteFakesIII and she posted a follow up tweet after the one I pasted on here which went along the lines of “twitter suspension sucks” – ” so much to get through over last 2 weeks” – something like that.
Looks like she is being shut down as soon as she tweets.
Tif Finn on October 17, 2013 at 12:31 pm
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wildwood says: (12)
October 17, 2013 at 11:57 am
What are the chances of a further share issue being a success at this point? Will the market respond? – I cant see it but then I didn’t see the initial one being a success.
=============================
It wasn’t, the target was £27m and they only got £22m
£10m worth of shares was available to the fans and they took £5m.
The costs were about 25% of the funds raised rather than about 5%.
Which part was a “success”.
This is one of the real issues just now. They clearly budgeted for a certain income, which included £27m from the IPO. Had that been available they would have made it to the next round of season tickets with no problem, assuming the spending levels and money being “siphoned off” remained the same.
Once again the support, which talks a lot and threatens people, never actually came across with the money when their new club was starting up. Another tradition brought from the old one presumably.
=============
That’s me back in my box then 🙂
Anything over £53 raised for a lame duck would be seen as a ‘relative’ success.
OK they didn’t meet targets granted but they raised way more than most of us accepted.
I wasn’t giving them a compliment. I was merely indicating that they managed to raise a level of finance that very few thought they would.
Talking of Chico – anybody remember his blogs that he used to write for the BBC website? Tremendous stuff. The responses/comments to it, I mean – not the blog itself. It was hummin’.
He’d write some piece of guff which would usually include the phrase ’40 years at coalface’ – but the one that sticks in my mind was the one about Boruc and McGeady having to make up. The fact that it was written 3 weeks after they had apparently made up, and just so happened to co-incide with the first substantial rumblings of Rangers financial problems was, I’m sure, just unfortunate timing.
Most of the comments that week were along the lines ‘Oh Chic, the one week when you couldn’t afford to ignore the big story, and yet you did.’
It got to the stage where posters were starting their own debates on Scottish football and ignoring whatever he’d written, or just taking it as a chance to point out the massive holes in his puff pieces. Turns out that he never actually read the comments. Somebody on sportsound (might have been Richard Gordon) asked him about the reaction to his blogs, and he just seemed confused, being entirely unaware that he was getting a kicking every week.
Interestingly, now that Traynor is no longer there, there’s no debate about who is (The) Rangers biggest cheerleader now!
Eeramacaroonbar
Cheers.
Scapa
Just had a look and I don’t think ‘cock a hoop’ is an accurate description at present.
The rumoured 300,000 pay-off has led to justifiable anger.
Greenock Jack says: (56)
October 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm
True, they are pissed about that, but very happy that their preferred saviours are one step closer
Allyjambo says: (603)
October 17, 2013 at 8:05 am
I have heard the comment made that Rangers were good supporters of the likes of Erskine Hospital a home/hospice for retired ex servicemen and women. As with anything connected to Rangers and Celtic be it advertising or whatever if one isn’t involved with it there can be all sorts negative press. Celtic I understand recently made a sizeable donation to the hospice, which I admire. Whilst entertaining the residents a couple of years back a member of staff made the comment to me on the support of Rangers and alluded to the fact that Celtic were not great supporters of the hospice. At that time on reflection I’m sure JI was working his magic and stirring the shit as there was stuff in the press and that is likely why she raised it being topical. I never made any comment to her on the subject (maybe I should have) but about 65% of the guys I was with and providing entertainment to the residents were all Celtic fans and had given of their time free of charge. We have been back twice the most recent being in the past month and I would have no hesitation in returning.
The type of support where players turn up to meet soldiers resident in homes/hospices or in rehabilitation units is all that is required and if a donation can be made even better. All this recent stuff at Ibrox is no more than blowing their trumpet it’s “look at us see how good we are nonsense” 🙄
There are now many strands unraveling simultaneously in this gargantuan tale – firstly at Ibrox itself – we now have only one of the original “investors” in SEVCO left in public position, namely Brian Stockbridge. The rest have all walked under various pretexts ( Mather just seems to have walked on no pretext at all): clearly the vultures have stripped the carcass bare.
The end game for SEVCO is now upon us. What emerges is, as The Glen has said, anybody’s guess. Logically and in accordance with the rules both of football and corporate law then the company will fold and cease trading. We have, however, been here before. Rangers did indeed die, only to be resurrected as the present fiasco. The inevitable logic of No Rangers was defeated by the unthinkability of No Rangers. I am actually reminded here of the “venture capitalists” of Phoenix buying out the shell of British Leyland ( or whatever they were trading under at the time) from BMW only to enrich themselves at the expense of other people and ultimately the tax payer. The “unthinkable” closure forcing a staying open and an opportunity for spivs to enrich themselves came just prior to the” inevitable” closure.
Similarly, This time, I suspect, with Rangers it may well be different – the fear of Armageddon without Rangers has vanished – we live now in a new post- Rangers reality in Scottish football clubs’ thinking , goodwill towards Ibrox has long since vanished, the SFA and SPFL have just about exhausted the rule breaking that they can do without the entire edifice crumbling and there is no plan B obviously in place. No-one is willing to buy up the shares and then plough an additional 30 – 50 million into the club, no more “investors” are likely to come on board as all usable assets and cash have been devoured and therefore in that absence I suspect a genuine and final end of football at Ibrox may well have moved from the “unthinkable” to the “inevitable”.
As regards the SFA and the clubs in Scottish football and their complicity in this matter, Charlotte has revealed the extent and duration of the complicity at the higher reaches (or given the behaviour revealed, hidden depths) of the game. I suspect the vast majority of clubs in the SPL and certainly beyond the SPL, at the time were completely unaware of such shenanigans, but they will be on guard now, as will the fans. The feeling will grow that Rangers were given chances no other team were ever offered and that the club has blown them. They may well take the view that more years of uncertainty, humiliation, cheating, financial skulduggery and sidelining of the game on the pitch to allow for an increasingly compromised game going forward to include a new Rangers, is simply no longer worth the candle. They have adapted to life without Rangers. It may be a materially, slightly poorer ( though no evidence of any loss of income of any significance has, in fact, emerged) game but probably in terms of atmosphere and spirit, a much more uplifting game without them.
The final piece of the dam remains the “Succulent lambers”. There are still some , under JI’s malevolent control, and their own outdated grasp of the zeitgeist, in the Fourth Estate who will throw everything at the necessity to keep Rangers afloat. Keith Jackson, Richard Wilson, Chick Young et al are still there, but increasingly the illogicality of their position, their lack of both intellect and credibility, and the waning of the influence of the press in any case, day by day in the face of the bampottery of the internet, mean that it is highly unlikely that the press can by themselves prevent the closure of football at Ibrox. Moreover, the recent discovery of testicles by Tom English and Graeme Speirs, coupled with the widespread disgust amongst many hacks at the hounding of Jim Spence has I think allowed space , even within the SMSM, for more dissenting voices to emerge. Praise must also go to the likes of Phil , Stewart Cosgrove Glen Gibbons, and Jim Spence for their courage in holding to accuracy and truth against an all pervading culture of hostility and threat. James Forrest’s emergence as a voice , in his excellent On Fields of Green site has impressed me particularly – though I must say I am disappointed in Ch 4’s ultimate abandonment of the process – I expected more from Thommo than he ultimately delivered.
So where we are now, as I see it, is at the end game of SEVCO ( Rangers 2): many assume, and they may well still be right, that some kind of Rangers 3 will emerge – I am not convinced. Perhaps indeed the “Unthinkable” world without Rangers is fast becoming “Inevitable”.
One can only hope
Shooperb says: (313)
October 17, 2013 at 12:53 pm
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Talking of Chico – anybody remember his blogs that he used to write for the BBC website? Tremendous stuff. The responses/comments to it, I mean – not the blog itself. It was hummin’.
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The one that sticks in my mind was the one he done about the Cardigan winning the title in 2008 (after he returned to RFC) with “no money to spend”. It’s even more hilarious now, knowing that that was when RFC were first handed the big tax bill and instead of paying it they spent 20 odd million on players.
He’s still in denial. The real scandal is not the sevcophant Young – it’s the BBC. How can they honestly employ a guy who lies on behalf of one club, so blatantly and consistently even when he’s proved so wrong ? A disgrace.
My question to the BBC would be – Jim Spence told the truth and was crucified and hung out to dry – Chic Young ?????????????
Is springbok edible, never mind succulent? Chic?
An example of what passes nowadays for reporting from the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24553976
“Former Rangers director Dave King, the Scottish businessman
who has settled a tax dispute in South Africa.”
They’ll be calling apartheid a ‘ misunderstanding ‘ next.
Too many members of the Klan in the BBC.
What’s that? Oh, right. Now I get it.
The BBC is a branch of the Klan.
Cheers.
(Apologies if this has been highlighted before)
I wonder also why Mark Daly went quiet after a pretty good opening up of the facts (for an MSM source). Has the BBC just let this investigation die, moved on to the next thing? Pandas, or whatever?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-probe-twitter-attack-on-bbc-1492199
wildwood says:
===================
Paint it any way you want.
The Rangers fans were offered £10m worth of shares and bought £5m that is not a success it is an abject failure.
With regard the rest, you really need to look at how much they paid and what they got for it.
Let’s put it this way, the fans put in £5m, or roughly 22% of the amount raised. For that they got roughy 11% of the business.
That doesn’t seem right now does it.
On the face of it some people seem to have done rather well out of it. Indeed for their £17m they got all told roughy 90% of the business. How much are the assets of that business now said to be worth, if I remember correctly it’s about £60m, even if it’s half of that it would still on the face of it be a good deal.
Now I’m sure Mr Green didn’t go into the details of how they were going to lose money. In fact if I remember the sales pitch properly they outlined how they were going to make money. In addition as Barca has pointed out and as confirmed in the prospectus it is an EIS and provides tax breaks, so another benefit.
The share issue wasn’t a success, it was a con job.
I should add that everything Rangers do these days if often a PR disaster. A quote from Martin Luther King which aptly fits the shenanigans at Ibrox on the subject of charity
“Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
Destructive selfishness is what we see a plenty
or a very successful con job?
Iceman
When you talk of Scottish football having moved on and being able to do without Rangers, haven’t you forgotten to mention one important issue. There would be no real or meaningful competition to win the League title in a distant forseeable future.
How many Leagues do you know with only one contender ?
How ’empty’ would 10 IAR feel ?
How empty would the stadium be ?
Tic 6709 says: (466)
October 17, 2013 at 12:16 pm
In my mind the MSM are responsible in part for some of the animosity that has been allowed to fester.
It would have been better for the Sevco fans to be told the truth from the outset rather than have them cling on to any passing straw.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If the truth was printed at the time there would be no TRFC/Sevco/SoontobeDeadCo. If the bears leaders hadn’t been seeking Brogues, Blazers, Lamb and Flags maybe the ordinary fans would have stood a chance. They seem to be waking up now but what is there left to cling to other than convicted criminals.
The confusion currently being created is part of a deliberate strategy and the MSM are guiding the fans down the path of the “only solution available”.
Shooperb says: (313)
October 17, 2013 at 12:53 pm
Turns out that he never actually read the comments. Somebody on sportsound (might have been Richard Gordon) asked him about the reaction to his blogs, and he just seemed confused, being entirely unaware that he was getting a kicking every week.
____________________________________
I don’t think that shows that he didn’t read the comments, Shoop, rather that he didn’t understand or quite get it that the majority of people see him as a complete dunderheid! His response/interruption of CE last night when CE, speaking of King, said, ‘…was convicted…’ and CY blurted out, to the effect, that, ‘King’s conviction to Rangers is undoubted’ smacked more of not understanding what English was saying rather than an attempt to deflect the audience from the reality. In Chick Young’s world, when the word ‘convicted’ is used to describe wealthy people involved with Rangers, it means ‘deep love (of Rangers)’. Only those Rangers supporters of limited means could ever be ‘convicted’ of a crime.
In years ahead, children will be asking, ‘where does the word ‘chickheid’ come from? Does it mean you have the brains of a chicken?’
scapaflow says: (1009)
October 17, 2013 at 12:30 pm
mmm If you are a world class expert in reputational management, working for someone who is looking to offload a loss making company that will still present serious reputational risks to your client, even after it was sold, and you knew that a potential buyer had a, shall we say, colourful past, would you not have a professional responsibility to brief your client in full about this potential buyer?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Just say it. SDM was not duped. JI was acting for both in the first Act of this engrossing play and probably still is.
Greenock Jack says: (57)
October 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm
Jack, granting your premise, purely for the sake of argument, how many years do you think it will take for Rangers, assuming they survive, to mount a realistic challenge in the top tier, never mind Europe?
Barcabhoy says: (241)
October 17, 2013 at 12:09 pm
The previous share issue worked , in part, because the Shares were granted EIS status. Which is why AIM is used, as quoted companies are not exempted if they are on AIM or Plus
The following link to HMRC explains a few things. It also throws some light on the tizzy RIFC got themselves into over whether Sevco 5088 was a subsidiary or not.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/eis/part2/2-1.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ignoring the Sevco subsidiary point for a second. Would RIFC have passed the gross assets test?
Greenock Jack says: (57)
October 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm
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Iceman
When you talk of Scottish football having moved on and being able to do without Rangers, haven’t you forgotten to mention one important issue. There would be no real or meaningful competition to win the League title in a distant forseeable future.
How many Leagues do you know with only one contender ?
How ‘empty’ would 10 IAR feel ?
How empty would the stadium be ?
=====================================================
I guess it depends on how Celtic react……..will they spend unnecessary sums on money maintaining a huge squad and winning the SPL by 30 points?
Or, as it more likely, will they downsize the 1st team squad and invest heavily in scouting/development and focus on building a team around a core of experienced pros and potential/youngsters from the ranks
I imagine most SPL team on their day will fancy their chances against a downsized celtic of the future – maybe not over 38 games, but certainly in a 1 off (or 4 off as we have) and that might make a difference to that club/their fans in their own battles.
The club could then return to more humble routes – reducing prices for fans (as they have done already this year) and increasing community/charity work.
Celtic have agreed to take a cut in TV money which has helped redistribute wealth further down the leagues
Personally, I think Celtic and it’s support, won’t mind a league without a Sevco – just as it’s enjoying a league without Rangers. And I think the rest of Scottish football will be happy with it too.
briggsbhoy says: (726)
October 17, 2013 at 1:03 pm
Cheers for your response Briggsbhoy.
I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t many more Scottish football clubs donating time, and money, to Erskine House and other very worthwhile causes. I know Hearts have, and will again once out of administration (fingers crossed). It is, however, a very tenuous connection to the armed forces, and if that is the extent of their connection, surely an invitation to those disabled servicemen, and their families, would have been more fitting, and less controversial, though clearly offering a less spectacular event.
In truth the ‘Armed Forces Day’ fiasco has done little to harm TRFC’s reputation, but may have damaged the service records of a few young squaddies caught up in the euphoria of the day. Collateral damage, I suppose, acceptable when all done in the name of ‘(The) Rangers’.
Ok we’ve had AJ raising fears about Whyte in the Record, promptly followed by a drive by from Charlotte, and a piece from Mr Leggat. Right on cue, up pops Mr McMurdo to reassure the anxious bears that all this talk of Whyte is a load of Whyte. Apparently the bears have nothing fear but fear itself.
You really could not make this up.
Allyjambo says: (605)
October 17, 2013 at 1:41 pm
Slightly OT, but, If any club were to take part in next years WW1 commemorations, I doubt anyone could really argue that Hearts would not be the appropriate club.
manandboy says:
October 17, 2013 at 1:13 pm
An example of what passes nowadays for reporting from the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24553976
“Former Rangers director Dave King, the Scottish businessman
who has settled a tax dispute in South Africa.”
They’ll be calling apartheid a ‘ misunderstanding ‘ next.
—————————————————————————
This reminds me of when Phil Mac & Co broke the Big Tax Case scandal in 2010. The MSM persisted in referring to it merely as “a HMRC query”. It was as if Martin Bain had perhaps overclaimed on his car allowance and the Inland Revenue was questioning his entitlement.
On reflection, Toxic Jack must have been in overdrive at the time trying to play down the magnitude of the situation. As the word “query” kept being repeated on TV, radio and in the rags it is now apparent that there must have been a carefully co-ordinated PR campaign to conceal the truth.
Greenock Jack says: (57)
October 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nice try – I see you’ve hooked a few already.
Tif Finn on October 17, 2013 at 1:20 pm
===================
Paint it any way you want
===================
I think your taking your sledgehammer to crack my nut here.
My statement was a very basic and simplistic one and I wasn’t referring to the fate of the money after it was raised or whether chuck’s outlandish predictions were achieved.
I admit I maybe should have used more words to qualify but all I meant was that few people expected these clowns to raise any money at all and they managed £20M odd. That’s all meant. I really intended to make that basic point and nothing further.
Like most on here I agree entirely with your fuller explanation of the situation. There is nothing whatsoever to discuss further or argue about.
Honest guv. I’m with you on this
redetin says: (233)
October 17, 2013 at 1:17 pm
I wonder also why Mark Daly went quiet after a pretty good opening up of the facts (for an MSM source). Has the BBC just let this investigation die, moved on to the next thing? Pandas, or whatever?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-probe-twitter-attack-on-bbc-1492199
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nice of the DR to print a photo of the victim above a story about him being threatened!
Ah Greenock jack now I get it. So RFC were fighting the good fight on the other 40 clubs behalfs?
Still maybe you’re right. So it’ll be ok if the SFA, spfl, the banks and the media actively collude with say hearts to choose but 1 of 40. And you’ll accept sycophantic drivel on sport sound of the gorgie variety for “the distant foreseeable future”
Ps I chose hearts just for you allyjambo. Felt you could do with some good news.
Its interesting that the @charlottefakes3 twitter account has been suspended – yet the link to the material remains active:
http://i.imgur.com/NsEBEJ5.jpg
If things are about to implode, what direction do we need to look?
Are the authorities about to go after Whyte et al if there are proven links with the club in administration and the new club/company?
Or have the spives bled the cash cow dry and there is nothing left?
I suspect that its F5 buttons at the ready 🙂
Greenock Jack says: (57)
October 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm
2 9 Rate This
Iceman
When you talk of Scottish football having moved on and being able to do without Rangers, haven’t you forgotten to mention one important issue. There would be no real or meaningful competition to win the League title in a distant forseeable future.
How many Leagues do you know with only one contender ?
How ‘empty’ would 10 IAR feel ?
How empty would the stadium be ?
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Even if Ibrox had a capacity of 90.000, and filled it for every home game.
And even if TRFC took 30,000 with them to every away game.
It still wouldn’t be worth it.
Having Sevco in Scotland is like keeping your slops bucket in your living room.
Scapa
My point was made taking into account what Iceman had opined about the possibility of it being ‘endgame’ for Rangers. He put forward the theory that Scottish football would get over it relatively easily and I was asking a question that challanged this.
NTHM
I think it would push Celtic to lobby all the more for some form of European league or route out of the Scottish game, at least for the first team. Staying in Scotland as automatic champions would see Parkhead ST sales bomb, followed by prices going down further, staying steady for a year, then further gradual decline.
Cutting costs on wages would limit European exploits/revenue/interest.
Drew
It’s called debate.
You might not like the questions or the answers but that’s life.
Smugas
I’m simply saying how I see it with Iceman’s scenario.
It’s not meant as a reason for everyone to send money to or take pity on Rangers.
It is to illustrate the difficulties facing the game.
Mate just tweeted me. When you liquidise stock, vegetables and seasoning the resultant soup doesn’t often shout “I hope that doesn’t happen again!”
Liquidation2 my erchie
iceman63 says: (290)
October 17, 2013 at 1:04 pm
There are now many strands unraveling ……..
________________________________________________
Powerful stuff iceman….digging it!…… 😀
Greenock Jack says: (58)
October 17, 2013 at 2:11 pm
Drew
It’s called debate.
You might not like the questions or the answers but that’s life.
________________________________________________________________________
No it’s not. It’s part of the ancient game of deflection and distraction sometimes called “oh look everyone – there’s a squirrel”
FWIW – I’m with Iceman on this one. The sooner they are gone the better and if the result is that Celtic have to downsize to reflect the drop in income then that’s life in a cleansed Scottish game.
Greenock Jack says: (57)
October 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm
0 1 Rate This
Iceman
When you talk of Scottish football having moved on and being able to do without Rangers, haven’t you forgotten to mention one important issue. There would be no real or meaningful competition to win the League title in a distant forseeable future.
How many Leagues do you know with only one contender ?
How ‘empty’ would 10 IAR feel ?
How empty would the stadium be ?
_____________________________________________________________________________
Jack – there is indeed a huge chasm between Celtic and the rest. For the rest , however, this represents no change – thirty years of Celtic / Rangers winning the league with them 30 points behind is no different to thirty years of Celtic winning the league.
And the reality is that just as once a decade or so some team slipped in between Celtic and Rangers when one or other had a poor season, so that possibility still remains, and this time the prize would not be a runner’s up spot but the league itself.
Without a Rangers only one giant need be toppled: a team of promising youngsters say at Hibs or Aberdeen where three boys might come through to join a professional SPFL Premiership squad and enhance it to a stage where it regularly defeats its traditional peers and rivals may well upset a Celtic side on a couple of occasions and snatch a title.
It would be more plausible than them ever winning the SPL with the Old Rangers and Celtic in situ anyway.
Celtic will have to break even. If their crowds decline and their income falls they will have to cut costs and they would then become increasingly vulnerable.
Some enterprising entrepeneur may grasp the nettle and promote themselves as the alternative force in the West of Scotland – a St Mirren, or Motherwell or Thistle might emerge with a full house every week and a sense of purpose to challenge Celtic.
We cannot predict the future. Only that things will change and not necessarily in any way that we can foresee.
What we can state is that the hassles and trauma and continuing absurdity of the Ibrox pantomime are not appealing to anyone. They represent a debilitating distraction which continually brings the game into disrepute. Without a clear and sustainable plan and way forward then the demise of football at Ibrox will become a certainty.
Can you see a pathway forward Jack?
Do Rangers have a Leishman figure and a Pars United in the wings? Do Rangers fans have the ability, sense of purpose and unity that allowed the factionalised Hearts fans to unite to save the club? Such actions require humility, a love of the game, a recognition of reality and long term planning.
Rangers fans cannot rely on the “Sugardaddy” model, yet to date the fans themselves show absolutely no sign of being prepared to, or being capable of, creating the conditions to allow the new version to be saved – they seem to be relying once again on the authorities -and some Mr Big – however tarnished – to bail them out of the mess. It may well be that this mess is so great that even with the support of all in the SMSM and all in the corridors of power that no viable solution is possible.
Just a quick question regarding the going concern issues – its always puzzled me why they brought in so many players that were not needed for this year.
Could the plan be to get a huge lead in the SFL1, have the STs money in and then have the “financial” scare of only a million left by April – and have the “good” guys come in and sell a lot of the players in Jan to keep them going to the end of the season as a necessity of continuation etc. Bears would be ok with this – the lead may narrow but they will still gain promotion.
Next season – new “good” guys in charge – get load of SPFL free transfers – STs sold due to new “good” guys and new players – however, costs still high – so large lead then sell players in January window – and repeat again.
They could get to SPFL without another IPO or admin doing this maybe? Just conjecture on my part………
Greenock Jack says: (58)
October 17, 2013 at 2:11 pm
0 1 Rate This
Scapa
My point was made, taking into account what Iceman had opined about the possibility of it being ‘endgame’ for Rangers. He put forward the theory that Scottish football would get over it relatively easily and I was asking a question that challanged this.
NTHM
I think it would push Celtic to lobby all the more for some form of European league or route out of the Scottish game, at least for the first team. Staying in Scotland as automatic champions would see Parkhead ST sales bomb, followed by prices going down further, staying steady for a year, then further gradual decline.
Cutting costs on wages would limit European exploits/revenue/interest.
======================
which would lead to Celtic weakening and another team getting a chance at the title
so, whats the problem?
ah, you WANT celtic to be strong – is that it?
GJ
Celtic would lobby for their European league place
Oh stop it, can this day get any better?
Sorry sensible debate only.
Celtic go to Europe. Other teams have competitive league and euro spot
Celtic have to downsize to meet more realistic expectations.
Now read the two options again minus the blue specs and instead from the perspective of the 10 other did dies previously frozen financially out of competitive football
Long Time Lurker says: (649)
October 17, 2013 at 2:00 pm
Its interesting that the @charlottefakes3 twitter account has been suspended – yet the link to the material remains active:
http://i.imgur.com/NsEBEJ5.jpg
1. The material is stored on http://i.imgur.com
2. Try this http://i.imgur.com/nG7yBE4.jpg
3. You should get 10CC
I’m thinking of the Old Roger Miller number more commonly known as a Dean Martin song, so far I only have the opening and closing lines:
Ibrox for sale or rent, spivs in it for their 50 cents, no …………………… is King for the Copeland road ?
Who’s for filling the gaps ?
scapaflow says: (1012)
October 17, 2013 at 1:22 pm
More a con job, I agree
Greenock Jack says: (58)
October 17, 2013 at 2:11 pm
My point is that the Ibrox Revival project is starting to look more and more like something that could take a generation, rather 2 or even 5 years to accomplish. Will there be a team in blue called Rangers? Probably. Will they be a major force in Scottish or European football? Probably not, unless someone has the balls to rip it all up and start again, and that will take a generation to pull off.
scapaflow says: (1012)
October 17, 2013 at 12:03 pm
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If you go back to the days of Pritchards Stockbrokers and the Keydata debacle you might find Jack and Craig via a mutual pal – Stewart Ford. I’m almost certain Whyte retained Jack at this time. Ford certainly did.
Iceman
I talked of the distant foseeable future.
Yes, the lack of a competitive league (1st spot) effects Celtic more than the rest and the financial aspect re. reduced TV monies/sponsership etc. that would effect all clubs. The latter would contribute to a general lowering of standards, as the good players of the other clubs go elsewhere for better money and at an increasingly younger age. This may actually benefit the National team but it would hinder clubs like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc from challanging Celtic over the course of a season.
In the forseeable, I don’t share your optimism about the other clubs winning a League title and I think the issue about a one horse League will be an increasingly big one as the years go by (if your scenario re.Rangers was to come to pass). An example of what this means, Celtic reducing their ST’s by 100 pounds IIRC was after just one season.
If Celtic had to cut their cloth then it follows that other clubs will have to do the same although the gap may close slightly.
What would this do for Celtic and their European adventures that provide interest, revenue and a shop window to continue their present business model ?
I’m surprised you seem to advocate the ‘enterprising entrepeneur’ as I thought we’d had enough of them.
Scottish football has for sometime been drifting or fading away.
Partly down to being a smaller nation beside a cash rich English game, aswell as the way the game is run and a general poor level of professionalism throughout the Scottish football industry. If Rangers were to go where you speculated, then they would shoulder a fair portion of blame aswell, but it wouldn’t help any.
Rangers need to somehow get through their present difficulties and change the way the club is run.
Gradually the support need to take more responsability within the running of the club. With the sums of money involved at Rangers, this is difficult to do in one fell swoop.
I can as many do, see supporters of most clubs taking a more active role but at the sametime I think we have to be realistic when it comes to finance and realise it will be more community orientated with little to do with going beyond the qualifying rounds of Europe. It won’t be cash rich or able to compete in Europe but it may be enjoyable.
Where Celtic and eventually Rangers will be in Europe in X years I don’t know.
TallBoy Poppy says: (102)
October 17, 2013 at 2:59 pm
yes, there is something there
Torquemada says: (26)
October 17, 2013 at 12:05 pm
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I’ve just finished listening to Chick’s hysterical ravings on podcast. Tom English certainly put him in his box overall but missed a spectacular open goal with the Ibrox puppet’s claim that “Rangers had reduced the debt from £31m to £18m” when Lloyds pulled the plug. That was the bank debt only, Chick, old bean!
Even after Rangers 1872 (deceased) had paid off the bank (using TicketUs’s money), they went bust owing c. £145m to creditors, only one of whom was HMRC
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Ah, the penny dropped at last! (in my head)
A simple analogy for simpletons like me – but still too advanced for the likes of Chick Dung –
It’s like priotritising one thing over everything else as an imperative (or having it prioritised for you) e.g. paying down your mortgage – whilst at the same time defaulting on every other bill – the credit card, the catalogue payments, council tax, the window cleaner, the paper boy, your direct debit to Help for Heroes – so that your overall debt actually increases, but you claim to have less debt because your outstanding mortgage is less!
Sevcoland really is a topsy turvy place
Scapa
My point is that the Ibrox Revival project is starting to look more and more like something that could take a generation, rather 2 or even 5 years to accomplish. Will there be a team in blue called Rangers? Probably. Will they be a major force in Scottish or European football? Probably not, unless someone has the balls to rip it all up and start again, and that will take a generation to pull off.
————————-
It is very difficult to say at present.
The next few weeks and months will go a long way to determining timescales.
Eeramacaroonbar says: (29)
October 17, 2013 at 1:05 pm
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Shooperb says: (313)
October 17, 2013 at 12:53 pm
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Talking of Chico – anybody remember his blogs that he used to write for the BBC website? Tremendous stuff. The responses/comments to it, I mean – not the blog itself. It was hummin’.
———————–
I remember four or five years ago, he wrote an impassioned but highly unconvincing piece about how he was a Hearts fan growing up and then became a St Mirren fan as a teenager due to his step dad. I googled it just there but wasn’t able to find it.
Now, any self respecting football fan who jumps the dyke from one team to another in his teens is highly questionable of itself but the funniest bit was when he blamed Jonathan Watson for people thinking he is a Rangers fan. Because no-one would ever have worked it out otherwise of course…
A sevconian work colleague once showed me a picture of herself, Jorg Albertz and the bold Chick who was resplendent in Rangers tartan kilt and Rangers tartan scarf on the occasion of some sort of celebration dinner at the Glasgow Hilton Hotel around the time of their 1997 title win looking in fine lubricated fettle and feeling no pain at all. But it was merely a case of when in Rome obviously as any other St Mirren fan would…
Seeing as Charlotte’s new twitter account (assuming it was the same person) was suspended as quickly as it appeared, does anyone think CF might start posting here, or was CF scared off from before?
Just came across the other side of the chick/English discussion on twitter
@bbckennymac @ChrisGraham76 try listening to bitter drivel from @TomEnglishSport on tonight’s show & you’ll know why BBC gets a wide berth
@Northernger @ChrisGraham76 @TomEnglishSport Chick put up argument.D’you think guys like Paul Murray would come on if they thought bias?
MoreCelticParanoia says: (27)
October 17, 2013 at 3:23 pm
———————–
I remember four or five years ago, he wrote an impassioned but highly unconvincing piece about how he was a Hearts fan growing up and then became a St Mirren fan as a teenager due to his step dad.
_____________
It just came back to me…. the catalyst for his outpouring was the Andy Davis debacle where Rangers were awarded a penalty for a Kyrgiakos dead man’s fall handing them the winning goal and 2 points in a title race they won by one on the last day of the season. You’ll remember a decision that made that Italian free kick at Hampden in 2007 look like a stonewaller.
Having established his impeccably neutral credentials with all this Hearts/St Mirren tosh, in his own mind anyway, if not anyone else’s, he then launched into passionate defence of the officials involved and a bitter attack on the integrity of Hearts for having the temerity to ask for an explanation as to just what on the blazes just happened?
Chick Dung using the BBC and taxpayers money as a platform to promote the interests of Rangers since 2005 (at the very least).
I suggested some time ago that this could be a reason for the signing of all these ‘top’ players. It would actually be a reasonable way to go about the job. As time has gone on I have seen nothing to disabuse me of the notion that there will be a fire sale in January. Only thing is, I think now, that the reason for it will be financial requirement rather than plan. I believe they will have a large VAT bill due either this month or next and with what has been happening in recent days, I am convinced that, in order to pay it, RIFC are going to have to call on the £2.5m unsecured facility (which they might suddenly find has had a requirement for security added). It’s End of Days
One last word on Sportsound, the BBC etc……………………………I miss Bob Crampsey more with each passing show, the BBC certainly do!
From the gossip column on the BBC website
Craig Mather is reported to have left Rangers with a year’s salary as Christian Purslow is tipped to be his replacement…
Purslow, there’s an apt name for someone entering Ibrox. I take it his Purse will be Full when he leaves with his new tie in a couple of months, should he be appointed.
briggsbhoy says: (729)
October 17, 2013 at 3:37 pm
Ex Liverpool MD, some experience of running football clubs that are just days away from Admin, which could be useful 😉
I don’t think Sevco have ever been in such a state of disarray in all their (15 month) history. At this rate they might actually do something competent soon. Either by accident or cos there’s hardly anything else incompetent or underhand they can do.
Greenock Jack says: (60)
October 17, 2013 at 3:07 pm
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“Enterprising entrepreneur’ does not = Sugar Daddy
A very difficult concept for a sevconian to get their head round I know.
Clue: Fergus McCann was one
Greenock Jack
Rangers are dead. Scottish football may take a financial hit or it might not. Point is, this is no-ones fault but Rangers.
No point in standing over the dead body and droning on about what might have been or advocating digging up the corpse and sitting it in the living room a-la Norman Bates. Time to move on.
any word on when the AGM might happen?
tick tock
BartinMain says: (100)
Seeing as Charlotte’s new twitter account (assuming it was the same person) was suspended as quickly as it appeared, does anyone think CF might start posting here, or was CF scared off from before?
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If nothing else it might give us an insight into the machinations that are responsible for the suspensions