Imagine you are one of those people who have a nice big mahogany desk, with a gloss finish set in a big corner suite office which comes complete with a picture window, a break out area, a couch to lie down on in moments of stress, a quietly playing stereo sound system, fridge, plush carpet and loads of wee executive toy like things of your choosing.
Imagine, just for a moment, that outside your office you have the executive German car that is almost compulsory when you work in such an office. Added to that, you also have the benefit of a large six figure salary, a pension scheme, substantial holidays, a bonus scheme which nicely enhances your already excellent salary, fantastic perks and trips abroad as part of your job, and that you fill a position which leads to invitations to the most fantastic events, do’s, and sporting occasions imaginable.
Imagine the respect you must command from your peers, your family and friends.
Imagine the awe that you must be held in at dinner parties and social events when you are introduced to strangers for the first time– strangers who will have heard your name, and know of your position in society.
Imagine the personal and professional respect you must command from others in your field — or any other field for that matter — when you go to conferences and meetings in foreign cities and with foreign counterparts.
Imagine the envy that many others sometimes feel for someone who has succeeded in business and society to this extent.
Then imagine that the big office described above is at Hampden?
What a bummer!!
Now, I mention all of this because if you were one of the big cheeses at at Hampden, I wonder just what you do with yourself when the large rosewood door of your office closes behind you when you get in there each morning?
Maybe you make a coffee? Read the papers? Check the mail? Go to a meeting about the latest in 3G or is it 4G pitches being installed in a ground or two in the Shetlands?
However, no matter what you do and who you speak to THAT file is always there— always at the corner of your desk, neatly up there at the top left hand corner just beyond the desk top golf set and above the Newton’s cradle with the balls that spell your name or whatever.
That file– the one that relates to the finances, compliance, directors details and ownership of Rangers Football Club.
At least that is what the top of the file says. Though to be fair it is a continuation file… continuing from the one that was opened two months ago and is fit to burst already with reports, memo’s and letters- which in turn was a continuation of the one before that and the one before that and the one before that and on and on.
Maybe that is not the correct name for the club?
Maybe that is something that can be clarified at the next meeting with the Directors and CEO of the club— whoever they might be at that time?
No matter where you go in the room, you can see that file from every position. There is just no getting away from it.
Who owns The Rangers?
There are all sorts of reports, share prospectuses, memos, deeds, documents, contracts, letters, e-mails all asking the same thing. And there you are— none the wiser.
Please clarify this, please clarify that, are there any signed but unrecorded documents, or contracts?
Are the Companies House records accurate? is the Land register accurate?
At the end of the day you just lie on the couch, place a cold cloth over your head and hope it will all go away.
Then the accounts come out. Oh the figures are shocking and they confirm that most of the people you negotiated with to get their team playing football somewhere after the collapse and liquidation of RFC PLC have exited stage left with huge severance cheques.
They now live in France, or Singapore or the Cayman Islands and you can bet they will never darken a door in Mount Florida on a wet February morning ever again.
But that is not the worst of it — the bleeding internet is full of leaks— documents, letters, e-mails, contracts, company forms and all sorts.
You wouldn’t mind if the documents leaked were ones that you had seen before, but in the main they are things that you have never seen and never had disclosed.Every day someone calls and asks ” Have you seen the latest?” and of course you haven’t so you stand there feeling like a complete chookie!!!
Every day you call the compliance and monitoring guys:
” Eh have you seen this? Have you been notified that he is a director?”
” No boss – never seen that? Never knew it existed?”
” So who owns the company if that is correct?”
” Eh Dunno boss — not sure of anything over there any more!”
“Ok have you checked the titles with the lawyers?”
” yes but the title as registered looks ok, but there is no guarantee that it hasn’t been sold to someone else and they have not registered their title for the moment!”
” Have you spoken to the lawyers? Have you asked for clarification?”
” yes Boss — the Lawyers don’t really answer our questions– well at least not fully!”
” What about these accounts – there are 57 pages there – what do they tell us?”
” Well they tell us that the figures are not good, boss, but not immediately critical.”
” Are they paying their taxes?”
” Appear to be boss– but we can’t be sure.can we? We were told they were paying their taxes before and … well you know the rest.”
” Ok, but Pinsent masons rule out the Whyte guy being involved?”
” Ah well not really – they don’t go into the company he says he owns – they sort of ignore that part!”
” But they carried out an independent investigation, surely?”
” True boss, but the independent investigation was only into what the non independent guys wanted investigating Boss, and they appear to have finished their report without speaking to all the witnesses.”
” Ok but the accounts – what do the accounts say about Whyte being the real owner — I mean they are from Deloittes for God sake – they must make the position clear?”
” Well we have had a look at them boss and in that regard the accounts are King Kenny!”
” King Kenny?”
” Aye King Kenny Boss – with regard to Whyte’s claim they say ” maybes aye– maybes naw” and they leave it at that”
” Jesus, well have you written to the Directors?”
” Aye – half the letters have come back marked “Gone away”.Boss”
” Do you know who the shareholders are?”
” Naw Boss”
“Do they have a bank account and a bank reference ?”
” Naw Boss”
” Who’s coming to the next meeting from their side?”
” Dunno Boss”
” Is there anything you can tell me that lets me close this file and get it off my desk for good?”
” Naw boss”
” Well who did we grant membership to last year?”
” The first time or the second time Boss?”
” What do you mean – first time or second time?”
” We started out granting membership to one company and then changed it to another”
” Two companies – owned by the same people?”
” Dunno Boss– but they sounded the same.”
” And which one got a licence?”
” Dunno boss”
” What?”
“Was the licence not granted by Mr Longmuir boss? And then ratified by us as a formality?”
” Why are you asking me, you are the compliance guys?”
” Aye but we were told it would all be ok by … well by someone ….. and by Mr Longmuir”
” When did he tell you that?”
” Told us one day at Ibrox Boss – I think it was at half time?”
” Half Time?”
” Aye – though it might have been full time boss ….. free bevvy and sandwiches so can’t quite remember”.
” Well who has the paperwork?”
” Lost boss”
” Lost?”
” Yes Boss – it was meant to come up from the SFL but never appeared. Turns out that the SFL was run as an unincorporated body and none of its records etc, are intact or have ever been audited …… Boss. Mr Ballantyne might have them in his garage Boss! ……… Boss? ….. are you still there? Boss?”
The man in the corner suite leaves the phone dangling, goes to his fridge for a cold drink and switches on the executive plasma hanging on the wall by way of the remote control on his desk.
The screen beams into life and an advert for the brand of soft drink that he is holding fills the wall. The very same brand of soft drink that has just been announced as the official soft drink to partner Scottish Football.
The executive, looks at his drinks can, looks at the file on the corner of the desk, looks at the abandoned phone and finally looks at the screen just as the speakers spell out clearly ………….. the benefits of coming from a long line of Fannies.
This is Scottish Football Administration in the 21st Century.
The SFA don’t adjudicate on fit and proper. They leave it to the clubs to self certificate. That’s worked well for Rangers , hasn’t it.
David Murray , Dave King, Craig Whyte , Andrew Ellis, Gary Withey, Charles Green, Imran Ahmad, Brian Stockbridge , Easdale’s Snr and Jnr. What a collection !
Walter myth interview on bbc –
On Dave king – he’s invested in the club in the past . . .
Hmmmm, thought you couldn’t invest in the ‘club’ ?
Don’t know if it has been on here before.
Just in case anyone might be interested.
Was searching for something else and fell over this.
Not even sure it is the same bloke so I may well be showing my ignorance here.
😉
http://ryanfuckinggosling.tumblr.com/
jimlarkin says:
October 8, 2013 at 6:14 pm
Walter myth interview on bbc –
On Dave king – he’s invested in the club in the past . . .
Hmmmm, thought you couldn’t invest in the ‘club’ ?
*******************
Noticed that as well, Jim.
He also talked about the directors of the club, rather than the company, and I was confused 😛
The club/company thing is also confusing poor Walter, and it may be the very thing that ends them (again). An awful lot of Dave King stuff going around right now, looks like Reagan et al will have to re-write history again shortly.
Only managed to get snippets of Sir Cardy’s interview.
All I got from it is that despite all the plaudits he really doesn’t have a scooby.
All he (and his apprentice) know it that if someone gives you money you spend it on players without asking questions. The financial ruin it brings is someone else’s problem.
A rabbit caught in the headlights, rambling, dithering and giving the fans, who look to the legend for guidance, no clear steer whatsoever. Nae class, nae dignity, nae nothing in fact.
Yesterday’s man. Enjoy yir retirement
Let’s not forget that in the unlikely event of a future reincarnation of Rangers winning the SPFL sometime after 2017, it would have at least 4 qualifying rounds to reach the CL
With Ally’s cup record, they could easily be out of Europe before the 12 July “celebrations”
Again, no questions asked !!! Walter Mitty , nothing for weeks since he sneaked out the back door at ibrokes and without fail is “used” like the tactical pawn he is spouting nothing in particular .
What he should have said was DK will fit in with the rest of the rouges , oops silly me brogues gallery over in the Govan big hoose ,
Is it just me or does the club / company all other descriptions or entity’s of the biggest club in the universal remind anyone of those Russian dolls !
Gym Trainer says:
October 8, 2013 at 4:27 pm
8 0 Rate This
Tee hee – Urban Dictionary is fun… I noticed in the “clumpany” definition that there was a reference to a mineral… but the mineral wasn’t defined, so I put on my best crayons and came up with this -> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sevconium
————-
Brilliant 😀
I posted this morning on Knighthoods and now I’m back home I have to come back in on this. Does anyone seriously believe David Murray would have been awarded a Knighthood with no Rangers association? Can anyone explain what his business success was other than to effectively saddle the state with £1 billion of debt? Does anyone believe had Rangers, not Celtic, become the 1st British Team to be crowned Champions of Europe their Manager would not have been Knighted at the earliest opportunity?
On a wider note though it doesn’t matter, because Jock Stein’s greatness knows no bounds. As does Brian Clough’s and Bob Paisley’s who were also subject of a state snub. Perhaps those who still fawn over ‘Sir’ David Murray might think of that in future, but the establishment never were ones for admitting their own mistakes. Instead they just tend to repeat them to try and prove they were right.
wottpi says:
October 8, 2013 at 6:54 pm
29 1 Rate This
Only managed to get snippets of Sir Cardy’s interview.
All I got from it is that despite all the plaudits he really doesn’t have a scooby.
All he (and his apprentice) know it that if someone gives you money you spend it on players without asking questions. The financial ruin it brings is someone else’s problem.
A rabbit caught in the headlights, rambling, dithering and giving the fans, who look to the legend for guidance, no clear steer whatsoever. Nae class, nae dignity, nae nothing in fact.
Yesterday’s man. Enjoy yir retirement
================================================================
i reckon he’s angling for a future invite to a future Sevco Franchise incarnation
after all, (allegedly), he did run up £50,000 in “expenses claims” in his short time as a NED !
Dignity . . .geez peace !!
jimlarkin says:
October 8, 2013 at 7:55 pm
1 0 Rate This
Only managed to get snippets of Sir Cardy’s interview … Dignity . . .geez peace !!
————
Not even sure why he made a media appearance. Big time embarrassing to listen to. Comes across as not well-gifted in the upper department, still living in cloud cuckoo land regarding financial reality, a willing stooge for Green & Co, £50,000 quid (or more than half an ‘Ogilvie’) richer for his short stint. He’s probably being lined up for a position at the SFA 😆
upthehoops says:
October 8, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Perhaps those who still fawn over ‘Sir’ David Murray might think of that in future, but the establishment never were ones for admitting their own mistakes. Instead they just tend to repeat them to try and prove they were right.
+++++++++++++
Then I can confidently forecast- “Sir” Walter of the cardigan, “Sir” Campbell Ogilvie, and last but most certainly not least -“Sir” Ally McCoist. And if anyone thinks I’m joking- I’m not.
Barold Hatchback MBE @SirBarold 7h
SARS tax claim against King included £12.5m in relation to the now defunct Rangers Football Club http://www.bdlive.co.za/articles/2008/11/11/king-s-tax-assessment-valid—sars;jsessionid=6ED362175BF7738262B35356D20AD686.present1.bdfm …
AUGUST 06 2012
King’s tax assessment is made up, among other things, of a R4,8m tax bill on his Sandhurst house, R101,44m on a Falcon 900, R188,47m on a Talacar shareholders loan account, R2,1m on a Ferrari, R17,24m for living expenses and – his largest single tax claim – R200m income from Rangers Football Club, as well as R281,28m in penalties and R20m in taxes on income from the Amazulu Football Club, which King insists he bought for R1 in return for paying outstanding salaries and financial obligations for the club.
neepheid says:
October 8, 2013 at 8:19 pm
Then I can confidently forecast- “Sir” Walter of the cardigan, “Sir” Campbell Ogilvie, and last but most certainly not least -”Sir” Ally McCoist. And if anyone thinks I’m joking- I’m not.
=====================================================
McCoist is an absolute prime candidate. No doubt charitable work will be thrown in as a reason.
Jim Traynor’s garden must be absolutely resplendent!!!!!
Various £ numbers have been put forward for King’s income from Rangers.
In Rand it is R200m (a figure which has never been disputed during the course of his tax case). The monies were received in 2001 when the the exchange rate was around 11:1. So R200m was around £18m.
So he invested £20m and got back £18m. A skim of 10 % to do a favour for a friend. Not too greedy but not bad business. Not sure it ever touched Rangers, both in and out seem to have been direct between Ben Nevis and MIH.
All of this has been widely reported in the South African business press. But even today the DR repeated the trope that he “lost” his £20m.
A’ll get ma washin’ machine.
While I’m in the mood about football Knighthoods and the Establishment another loosely related issue came to mind tonight. When I was on the stadium tour of Celtic Park last summer the Tour Guide was explaining what some of the less obvious trophies were. Referring to a plaque she explained it was from Glasgow City Council to commemorate Celtic winning nine league titles in a row, which was achieved back in 1974. She then advised that the club only received the plaque because Glasgow City Council in 1997 were commemorating Rangers winning winning nine league titles in a row. After they did, they then realised nothing had been given to Celtic. I was far too polite to ask why Celtic did not tell them to shove it as hard as possible where the sun don’t shine!
25% of IPO income as ‘costs’; a manager and support staff who take home nearly £2M in wages; a playing staff who collect £8M in wages; an executive staff who are wringing +£5M in wages and bonus; a retail arm owned by someone else; a catering function owned by someone else; a security company with a non tendered contract, owned by someone else;
The only source of income is season tickets.£8M p.a.
But this business model doesn’t factor in CW’s substantial dibs on the bones and skin for stock. It also takes no account of the utter rinsing that those lovely boys from Greenock are going to give the Govan shed.
It crucially fails to assess the impact of the people, who have been royally rogered roughly by the brown brouge blazers, holding back their hard earned cash.
Jack’s been very busy on RM touting a new cash call, and the well fed MSM are reprinting releases from the Media midden about how season tickets will have to double in price next season.
upthehoops says:
October 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm
================================
You’d have thought that when UEFA and FIFA bestowed honours on the Celtic fans for their support for the UEFA cup final in 2003 there would have been even the slightest glimmer of recognition for the reflected glory on the nation from the Scottish FA???????????
Bawsman says:
October 8, 2013 at 11:18 pm
upthehoops says:
October 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm
================================
You’d have thought that when UEFA and FIFA bestowed honours on the Celtic fans for their support for the UEFA cup final in 2003 there would have been even the slightest glimmer of recognition for the reflected glory on the nation from the Scottish FA???????????
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wasn’t so long ago the two of them were in cahoots carving themselves ever larger pieces of the Scottish Football pie.
On a slightly tangential note, I’m currently reading and enjoying Iain Martin’s, “Making it Happen: Fred Goodwin, RBS and the Men who Blew up the British Economy”, and a familiar name to Scottish Football fans makes an appearance in the book, Gavin Masterton. He was a high flyer at the Bank of Scotland,which then rivaled the Royal Bank of Scotland for dominance of the banking sector, at the beginning of 2000.
Goodwin (Fred the Shred) & Masterton were opposite each other, as both banks vied for a hostile takeover of Nat West in 2001, which Goodwin & RBS subsequently won and which resulted in such disastrous consequences, as we all know, when the economy and the banking sector in particular imploded on the back of easy credit & financial mismanagement on a colossal scale.
The book highlights in grisly detail the amount of money that was sloshing around at that period of which Goodwin and Masterton were the most recognizable and highest profile individuals, for both RBS & BOS. Is it any wonder that both are now utterly discredited and have been run out of “Dodge”, as a result of the profligate and contemptuous manner, in which they operated.
We also know now, it was Masterton’s close personal and professional relationship that turned on the tap, which allowed that other Edinburgh giant of business, Sir David Murray to spend other people’s money like there was no tomorrow, thinking that the bubble would never burst and the cosy banking establishment would never close the door on him (they haven’t) 🙄
On one side at RBS, we had Fred Goodwin, on the other at BOS, we had Gavin Masterton, no wonder the economy and Scottish Football racked up unsustainable debts with these two chancer’s at the helm.
Ironically ,at my own club Celtic, we were saved by another banker Brian Quinn, he being a more old fashioned and cautious one, who could see where other clubs were heading, especially our near neighbours across the city, and after the Uefa Cup Final, called a halt to the spending and the “Moneyball” strategy was the new game in town, down Celtic way, which has worked so effectively, as the other mob exploded in flames and went the same way, as both banks…….owing tens of millions to ordinary creditors and shareholders.
It couldn’t happen again could it ❓
The Daily Ranger has a theory. From twitter:
@DailyRangerRFC
I keep telling folk, Dave King is going to buy the stadium, not about shares 😉
12:04am – 9 Oct 13
Dave will buy CW’s pawn ticket and pay the redemption. The club will refund Dave via a yearly lease, plus interest. Ally’s gonna have to take a bigger pay cut!!!
Drew Peacock on October 8, 2013 at 11:22 pm
2 3 Rate This
Bawsman says: October 8, 2013 at 11:18 pm
upthehoops says: October 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm ================================
You’d have thought that when UEFA and FIFA bestowed honours on the Celtic fans for their support for the UEFA cup final in 2003 there would have been even the slightest glimmer of recognition for the reflected glory on the nation from the Scottish FA??????????? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
Wasn’t so long ago the two of them were in cahoots carving themselves ever larger pieces of the Scottish Football pie.
…………………….
Can someone please tell me what teams like Aberdeen ,Dundee Unt, Dundee etc
Done with their money While they.were winning titles cups European trophies and packing out their stadiums.week.in week out ?
Why do fans from outside the OLD old firm always blame Celtic and rangers(IL) instead of looking closer to home?
Yes as time went on a massive gap appeared between the So called.big 2 and the rest But it was not so long ago other teams were raking in money as Well 🙂 the leagues were tight We has hearts,hibs etc pushing teams all the way 🙂
So why keep blaming a dead club and Celtic for money their own teams owners and board’s swallowed up ?
Let the TDs commence again 🙁
Oh forgot to add it wasn’t that long ago that these so called hard done by clubs Passed a ruling Crippling every club who dared want promotion to the SPL 😳 By making them build 10,000 seater stadia
So they Could keep their piece of the pie 😥
Bob Loblaw @RetroScot 1h
Here’s the SFA saying Dave King “won’t be allowed to be an official at #Rangers post-admin” (thanks @JohnMcLean_HS67) http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/sfa-chief-responsibility-for-owner-test-lay-with-rangers-1-2165105 …
………………………………….
So according to Stewart….as long as you tell the SFA you are happy the individual is fit and proper…it’s ok…wow….and this guy runs football in Scotland…by his reckoning Robert Mugabe could join the board of a Scottish club!
Scottish football is between a rock and a hard place.
Celtic have just had a very successful season with revenues of sixty odd million. This is the amount of money that the likes of Stoke and Sunderland will get this year from the new broadcasting deals for being bottom of the EPL, before they open the turnstiles or bring in any other source of income.
Celtic will continue to thrive as the big fish in the little pond and a good chance at European riches. Rangers, even without the madness that currently envelopes them, are gone. Finished. Kaput.
The game needs to accept this reality and work out what the future holds.
SouthernExile says:
October 8, 2013 at 9:31 pm
—————————————————————————————————————
Why SARS billed Dave King for his “Rangers Income”. By Dave King.
“It is common cause that those 5 items were simplistically based on an allegation by the Commissioner (because they were investments made by the trust out of the proceeds of the share sales in SOL) that those specific investments should be deemed to be personal compensation to me arising from the services that I provided to the trust in successfully managing SOL on its behalf.”
SARS viewed his shares in Rangers as “personal compensation”- not an investment by his Company – and therefore classed it as income liable to tax.
http://www.moneywebtax.co.za/moneywebtax/view/moneywebtax/en/page259?oid=31667&sn=Detail
@TBP
Slippery concept, imputed income, but I see where you’re coming from!
I’m not being sarcastic, just curious, was he just a fool who tipped £20m into a black hole?
SouthernExile says:
October 9, 2013 at 1:32 am
————————————————————————————————————————————–
I don’t think he’s a fool. It looks like he stashed the cash in multiples of £20million in Channel Island and BVI Trusts. Others are better placed to judge but, I think he just needed to ship it out of S.A. It looks like his money was made pumping and dumping stock in lucrative outsourcing operations and I’m not sure what kind of tax those capital gains would have been hit with, but rather than pay his share he turned it into offshore trinkets.
So, King was duped by Murray, who was duped by Whyte, who was duped by Green? An unfortunate, if not unbelievable, scenario.
More Walter S. offering very little of any substance, making no sense on finance, and admitting it in the quote below! Ewing Grahame piece: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/rangers-more-pain-ahead-says-walter-smith-1-3131812
Pass ‘Go’ and collect £50,000 …
Given that TRFC are all but running on vapour, CM has gone cap in hand to a South African based businessman begging for bucks. Why would any sane individual part with money? Is DK being asked to underwrite a second share issue?
You nail £20M to the wall, TRFC will issue a second tranche of shares (partly diluting current shares). This will have the effect of calling the requisitioners bluff ‘put up or shut up’, it will also highlight the true extent of the supporters willingness to be pumped.
DK picks up a majority shareholding (exit stage left Stockbridge & Mather, pursued by a bear!). The absentee landlord will have no problem declaring austerity.
To quote an old song ‘My Baby Got The Coalmine, All I Got Was The Shaft!’
Danish Pastry says:
October 9, 2013 at 4:36 am
More Walter S. offering very little of any substance, making no sense on finance, and admitting it in the quote below!
————————————–
“This is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this AGM? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this AGM! It does not make sense! Look at me. I’m an ex-chairman defending a dead football club, and I’m talking about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense!”
Has the Sun piece on Setanta been authenticated yet .
If so ,I assume the bears are demanding Sevco 2012 take them to court for their clubs share.
If not ,why not .
I only ask as my works canteen has for since I can remember been littered next day with the previous days papers (always ) but for the first time yesterday the Sun was nowhere to be seen .
I am sure that it’s just coincidence that 2 Sevco fans are based in said area . 😯
Fergus’
See my post of yesterday (early hours) it’s as true as Ogilvie is bent. 😈
Cygnus X-1 says:
October 8, 2013 at 11:23 pm
==============================
Imagine Rangers were able to attract someone of the stature of the Deputy Governor of the Bank of England as their Chairman. Do you think he would have been treated with the disdain the Scottish media treated Brian Quinn? Quinn was portrayed as the bogeyman who along with his ‘PLC Board’ sat on a massive pile of cash and denied the fans the team they deserved. Nothing of course could be further from the truth, but that is how he was portrayed. It is as much of a lie as it is to say David Murray (I don’t say Sir because I don’t have to) invested millions of his own money in Rangers. Nothing of course could be further from the truth, but that is how he was portrayed. Until the media tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth regarding Scottish football it will be genuinely difficult to move on. Even this very day, they are re-writing history regarding Dave King.
Re the SFA and their admission that the FPP rule .may it be
Hello ,sit down ,which club are you investing in .
Sevco
Welcome brother .
or
Hello ,sit down ,which club are you investing in .
(any other club )
Now slow down now ,it’s not that simple ,we have rules and there are a lot of forms to be filled in and checks to be done .
Make sure you give us ALL the relevant information and we will get back to you when we have investigated thoroughly.
Or maybe not
loamfeet says:
October 9, 2013 at 6:34 am
1 1 Rate This
—————
When you get Motherwell supporter Gordon Dalziel questioning the judgement of Ibrox legends on SSB, and actually sounding sensible on some issues, you know things are serious. That said, he was teased mercilessly by callers and fellow pundits about his, “It’s no Ally’s fault” mantra. Frank McAvvenie was superb. Brings a great sense of humour to the table. First call (5 min in), John from Uddingston, is worth a listen …
PS second call is a belter too
casualudendi
Cheers .
I must say ,I thought I would have heard all about the backlash from the hordes .
With them needing every penny they can get at the moment and I would have thought Sally would have been demanding the names of the people who withheld (stole) Sevco’s money ,after all he has just had his wages halved .
Then again maybe the Sevco fans are happy threatening the spineless MSM for just saying their old club died ,I admit to being puzzled though if they do not persue the same line with Setanta ,after all they have not just said their club died it refuse to pay money due to it
😯 😯
http://www.insideworldfootball.com/matt-scott/13386-matt-scott-high-stakes-game-for-tv-rights-will-keep-uefa-s-club-giants-content#.UlQJR218rIg.twitter
OT link but then when you sit and take in everything being said in this piece it’s very on-topic wrt Scottish footballs future
The amount of money swirling around the Champions league is not just taking the bigger countries away from the little ones, it’s taking the bigger clubs away from the little ones domestically and it ensures that not only would your Norwich’s etc not vote for a Scottish incomer to their league, but also that a Liverpool too wouldn’t want that same incomer if they grew to a challenging level which Celtic obviously would in time.
@andygraham.66
If the possibility of “a Scottish incomer” joining the EPL ever came to a vote, I think we’d have much more of a problem with teams outside of the Premiership than the likes of Norwich or Liverpool – particularly those teams in the Championship (Bolton, Blackburn, Wigan, QPR?) who’ve invested millions only to yo-yo up & down over the years without establishing a firm foothold in the EPL and would be absolutely livid to see “an intruder” jump in over their heads. Also, unless I’m mistaken, such a sea change in “membership” would require the support of every club in all 4 divisions., so – I’m afraid I just don’t see it happening – EVER
tcup 2012 says:
October 8, 2013 at 11:44 pm
32 30 i
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Drew Peacock on October 8, 2013 at 11:22 pm
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Bawsman says: October 8, 2013 at 11:18 pm
upthehoops says: October 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm ================================
You’d have thought that when UEFA and FIFA bestowed honours on the Celtic fans for their support for the UEFA cup final in 2003 there would have been even the slightest glimmer of recognition for the reflected glory on the nation from the Scottish FA??????????? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
Wasn’t so long ago the two of them were in cahoots carving themselves ever larger pieces of the Scottish Football pie.
…………………….
Can someone please tell me what teams like Aberdeen ,Dundee Unt, Dundee etc
Done with their money While they.were winning titles cups European trophies and packing out their stadiums.week.in week out ?
Why do fans from outside the OLD old firm always blame Celtic and rangers(IL) instead of looking closer to home?
Yes as time went on a massive gap appeared between the So called.big 2 and the rest But it was not so long ago other teams were raking in money as Well the leagues were tight We has hearts,hibs etc pushing teams all the way
So why keep blaming a dead club and Celtic for money their own teams owners and board’s swallowed up ?
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It’s been a very long time since Hearts or Hibs “were raking in money” – best part of 60 years actually. They (and the “New Firm”) may have had their brief flirtations with success in more recent times but the game in Scotland has been in decline since the ealy 1960s IMO. For those non OF fans it’s been a long winter of failure , both off and on the park.
As for “blaming” Celtic & Rangers – well, it’s never arisen in my circle of footballing acqauintancies. Never. Rangers may have started the rot under SDM and some clubs undoubtedly got their fingers badly burned in trying to stay the pace but they only have themselves to blame. And I say that as a Hearts fan who has watched Wallace Mercer , Chris Robinson & Vlad pour money down the drain.
I find your post intriguing in that I could turn it around , wind the clock back just a little and say what happened to all the money Celtic made in their great Euro successes (winner, finalsists, semi finals on a regular basis) – where did that money go ? The banks on the verge of closing the club down , a decrepit stadium ? (yeah , I know Celtic built a shiny new stand. One) People in glass houses , eh ?
Tearsofjoy: Celtic is a plc and has published audited accounts in line with stock exchange regulations and the law of the land since becoming so. You want to see where the money went? It’s not hard to find. Happy to help
tearsofjoy says:
October 9, 2013 at 9:09 am
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I find your post intriguing in that I could turn it around , wind the clock back just a little and say what happened to all the money Celtic made in their great Euro successes (winner, finalsists, semi finals on a regular basis) – where did that money go ? The banks on the verge of closing the club down , a decrepit stadium ? (yeah , I know Celtic built a shiny new stand. One) People in glass houses , eh ?
=====================================================
Celtic did indeed build a shiny new stand.They also,in the space of 6 years re-covered the Jungle and covered the Rangers end.
Willie Wallace was also signed for a scottish record transfer fee of £30k.
All at a time when fans paid the equivalent of 20/25p to watch a game and gate money was split with the opposing team.
40. andygraham.66 says:
On euro income. With the King saga in full swing I’ve often wondered if a euro shake up might be on the cards (ie. when, not if). It would be one of very few reasons I can think of why the Smithsian* financial model “You just have to accept money goes oot and doesnae come back 😯 ” would be worth following for the bearz just now. Is there a bandwagon coming that they can’t afford to miss?
On King – lets think it through.
@DailyRangerRFC
I keep telling folk, Dave King is going to buy the stadium, not about shares
So King buys the stadium not the shares so no issue with FAP. Funds go to TRFC, but then there’s the small matter of a 20m+ debt to RIFC. Only way TRFC can avoid that is administration and one would assume Ibrox would go to RIFC in settlement. Fundamentally, King could buy the stadium by paying top dollar to RIFC who then wipe the debt to TRFC. But that leaves King in the red with a tenant who can’t afford to pay rent as proven by current performance. King says he doesn’t want rent (presumably – loyal bear and all that) but TRFC still leak cash. At best break even. And that’s before an assault on the SPFL. Sorry to be cynical and set another squirrel running but you can see a definite benefit to the pre-proposed league restructure 8-8-8, if you’re a bear that is. Good of the game my erchie!
And there you have it, straight from the mouth of the Myth, why any manifestation of Rangers will always contain within itself the seeds of its own destruction.
loamfeet says:
October 9, 2013 at 6:34 am
I hadn’t read Sir Cardigan of Man Made Fibres interview in detail, but after reading your summary I smelled a rat and I thought I should perhaps just check that you weren’t a ‘badyin’ trying to spin his knightly message for your own evil purposes, possibly to reduce the impact of his wisdom and dilute the accuracy of his own incisive analysis.
Nope. That’s pretty much exactly what he said.
Good job loamfeet. 😛
Tearsofjoy
Yes Celtic did nearly go to the wall
Why you ask ?
The same reason as I said in my post (owners and boards swallowing the cash)
Also the same reason i mentioned your club Hearts and many others
Bit I was certainly not having a go at any 1 club
I was posting up my answered to a previous post that was all
You say scottish football has been in decline since the 60s I don’t disagree with you (bit before my time btw)
All I know is that the greed of many has been killing the game for decade’s and has brought us to were we are now 🙁
All you have to do is listen to any CE or so walked pundits /MSM talking about football and they will tell you its q business:(
I always thought it was a game 🙁
Dr. Mike McDermott @MikejMcDermott 20m
Relegation for going in to admin instead of a points deduction & signing ban http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-football/10365208/SPFL-clubs-that-go-into-administration-could-be-relegated.html …
Cld B interesting around turn of year!
SPFL clubs that go into administration could be relegated
Scottish Professional Football League board hopes to change rules, which could affect Rangers, Hearts and Kilmarnock
By Ewing Grahame7:15AM BST 09 Oct 2013Comments2 Comments
The board of the Scottish Professional Football League are in the process of amending and updating the rulebooks of their predecessors (the Scottish Football League and the Scottish Premier League) and one key alteration could mean that clubs which plunge into administration are relegated rather than, as now, penalised by points deductions.
Any such move could spell bad news for some of football’s biggest names. Rangers have just announced losses of £14.4 million and former director Dave King warned in August that the club was in danger of sliding into administration by Christmas.
They are eight points clear at the top of League One after as many fixtures but, in the wake of the publication of their annual accounts, some financial analysts have claimed they may require another cash injection simply to help them complete the campaign.
Hearts, at present, have no idea when – or if – they may be able to exit administration while Kilmarnock are almost £10 million in debt and enduring record low attendances as supporters protest about the stewardship of their club by chairman Michael Johnston.
Since 2001 Motherwell, Hearts, Livingston (twice), Morton, Dundee (twice) and Dunfermline have, at some point, been in administration while Gretna, Clydebank, Airdrieonians and Rangers fatally descended into liquidation.
A bit of a silly discussion going on about how “big” various scottish teams are or should be. Taking Aberdeen as an example, in their best ever seasons they averaged 14,000 compared with Celtic’s best ever 50-60,000. Celtic start off 4 times bigger at least and this has been increased (10 times bigger in terms if turnover) in latter years due to CFC success, AFC failure and the change in fitba finances (in 1983 tv money was chicken shit for example). All well and good and just as it should be, the best supported and successful teams should be…. well, more successful. The question is should they then blooter the rest out of existence?
As well discussed, the bottom EPL teams get more in tv money that any scottish team can earn in total revenue. They are bigger and will protect this. I would like to see CFC got to the English league but why would they be wanted?
The G14-18 big eurofranchise teams are a quantum leap bigger than the lower EPL teams. They will also protect this, to the hilt.
There’s not a lot we in Scotland can do about the G14-18 or the EPL but there could be ways to improve the game in Scotland being cognisant of the fact that we are worse off because we are in the shadow of the EPL. However, pretending that the gig has not been set up for the benefit of the big two is a bit naive but I guess that’s just my diddy opinion. Perhaps the AFC board will grow a set and not perpetuate this going forward as it’s their (and the other diddys’) problem and they are to blame for voting it all the way through. Remember 18 months ago when everyone except the then extant “Olf Firm” were SPL “rebels” because they wanted to change the voting rights? With rangers liquidated it could have gone through 11-1 but it has been dropped. TSFM have rightly pursued various mysteries in scottish fitba, what the deal was for the “rebels” to drop the voting structure amendment is my particular mystery.
jockybhoy says:
October 9, 2013 at 9:44 am
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Tearsofjoy: Celtic is a plc and has published audited accounts in line with stock exchange regulations and the law of the land since becoming so. You want to see where the money went? It’s not hard to find. Happy to help
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I know CFC are a PLC and I know they publish accounts , thanks. I also know it’s not hard to find. 🙄
Perhaps you should read my post again as my question still stands – what did Celtic do with all the money from their great Euro days ?
paulsatim says:
October 9, 2013 at 10:36 am
2 0 Rate This
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Mr Grahame writes well. I notice the new SPFL board is named at the end, nice cross-section of clubs represented. Amazing what radical thinking is possible when the tainted SFA don’t get their paws on everything, and when those who think they are above all others are excluded from the process.
Relegation seems entirely fair, especially since some clubs seemed to have used admin tactically.
So, some old deluded bloke in a cardigan thinks that Rangers are “too great an institution not to find an answer to their problems” – Is this the modern day equivalant to an emperor fiddling (literally!) whilst the empire burns? IMHO Both Walter & Minty Moonbeam are self-delusional hypocrites who belong in an institution. – Is BEDLAM still open for business?
Sorry if this is “old news” if so I must have missed it.
I am given to understand that Jim Traynor has left the employ of RIFC and that it happened a few weeks ago.
Can anyone confirm this.
Again sorry if I missed this being announced.
TheLunaticFringe says:
======================
The previous club was “too big” to go into administration, it would never be allowed to happen.
The previous club was too big for a CVA to be refused, HMRC et al would be dealt with.
There was no way the previous club would be liquidated, unthinkable, strings would be pulled.
You cannot teach those who refuse to learn. The idea of any football club being “too big” to fail is simply nonsense, as has been proven.
Tif Finn says:
October 9, 2013 at 11:09 am
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Sorry if this is “old news” if so I must have missed it.
I am given to understand that Jim Traynor has left the employ of RIFC and that it happened a few weeks ago.
Can anyone confirm this.
Again sorry if I missed this being announced.
————
There was a twitter rumour last week that he was on his way, but twitter is used and abused. Seen nothing official, have you?
tearsofjoy says:
October 9, 2013 at 10:57 am
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jockybhoy says:
October 9, 2013 at 9:44 am
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Tearsofjoy: Celtic is a plc and has published audited accounts in line with stock exchange regulations and the law of the land since becoming so. You want to see where the money went? It’s not hard to find. Happy to help
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I know CFC are a PLC and I know they publish accounts , thanks. I also know it’s not hard to find. 🙄
Perhaps you should read my post again as my question still stands – what did Celtic do with all the money from their great Euro days ?
=================================
They gave half of it to away clubs 😛
Tif Finn says:
October 9, 2013 at 11:09 am
2 0 Rate This
Sorry if this is “old news” if so I must have missed it.
I am given to understand that Jim Traynor has left the employ of RIFC and that it happened a few weeks ago.
==================
Apparently he approached the BBC for his old job back and was told to do one.
Dr. Mike McDermott @MikejMcDermott 20m
Relegation for going in to admin instead of a points deduction & signing ban
============
Perhaps a wee nudge to DK to stress the urgency of the rescue?
Danish Pastry says:
October 9, 2013 at 11:15 am
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I wasn’t aware of the twitter rumour, I don’t really do that, however I have it from what I would consider a reliable source. To qualify that I cannot confirm how reliable their own source is, if that makes sense.
Put it this way, if I were to place a bet today it would not be on Jim Traynor having a reserved parking space in the vicinity of Ibrox Stadium. But then again I amn’t a gambling man.
@Tif Finn
My information is that he is currently on leave.
However, I do not think that he has a long term future at Sevco and that he probably realises that.
How much money was actually available during the times Celtic, and indeed Rangers, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd were having good runs in Europe. There would have been gates for the games, and some prize money. However I would imagine that pales into insignificance against today’s income from media etc.
I don’t imagine it would have been make or break in the same way as it is today.
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
October 9, 2013 at 12:14 pm
============================
According to those close to him that “leave” may well not have a return to work date attached to it.
In vino veritas perhaps. Not from the subject himself though.
tcup 2012 says:
October 8, 2013 at 11:44 pm
Can someone please tell me what teams like Aberdeen ,Dundee Unt, Dundee etc
Done with their money While they.were winning titles cups European trophies and packing out their stadiums.week.in week out ?
——
This would be the 1980s, what, 30 years ago?
For a start, Pittodrie was seldom full to capacity at the time – a capacity measured in fractions of the large Glasgow stadiums’. I remember being a bit miffed that ticket prices were increased to £2.50 for Old Firm games. Not exactly wads of cash entering the building there.
For a second, television money wasn’t comparable. And we know which teams get on the telly more than anyone else anyway.
The income of Aberdeen, even with the tremendous success of the 80s, was likely still not comparable with the Old Firm.
And for a third, we built the Richard Donald Stand – which involved the very expensive hiring of loads of blind chimpanzees to design it and ensure it would in no way fit with the rest of the stadium.
Taking a view of things that happened when stadia capacities were increased for SPL teams … its my recollection that there were a number of ticket increases justified, at least in part, using the cost of these stadium improvements. Also, we now know its likely that the steel for the stadia works being procured from a MIM company had a bearing on whether finance from BankofScotland was approved, and on what terms, for most of the SPL clubs. Fingerprints of Masterton and Murray are to be found on this tidy arrangement for the bank and the steel company.
I dont recall whether I read of this in something posted by Barcabhoy, BRTH or Corsica, so I give thanks generally to all three for enlightenment (and not just on this subject).
Might this shed some light on the slightly murky question of where clubs’ money has gone?
fergusslayedtheblues says:
October 9, 2013 at 7:32 am
Then again maybe the Sevco fans are happy threatening the spineless MSM for just saying their old club died ,I admit to being puzzled though if they do not persue the same line with Setanta ,after all they have not just said their club died it refuse to pay money due to it
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Is it not just because Setanta have gone the same way as their previous club and therefore have no-one to threaten?
loamfeet says:
October 9, 2013 at 6:34 am
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“This is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this AGM? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this AGM! It does not make sense! Look at me. I’m an ex-chairman defending a dead football club, and I’m talking about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense!”
__________________________________________________________
My personal favourite Sir Walterism was after Kevin Thomson tried an “Ashley Young” on Georgios Samaras in 2008 i.e. launch yourself into an outrageous dive in the box aiming a fly leg at your opponent to trick the ref into thinking the defender made contact rather than the other way around.
This is how the dignified one defended his player:
“I don’t know why nothing was given as the boy nearly got a broken leg and how can you break a leg without contact? He does not have a broken leg but I guess it is one of those situations that will remain a mystery.”
Yes, quite.
Profile of a Fit and Proper Person, incredible that this guy is seen as anything other than a crook who should be pilloried in our press…………. 🙄
http://www.bdlive.co.za/business/2013/08/29/king-fined-r3.28m-after-reaching-plea-deal
I wouldn’t worry too much about Jim Traynor.
I’m sure it was all part of a greater plan to infiltrate Ibrox and get the exclusive story from the inside.
Book is probably half written by now and Jim will be lining up an serialisation with the red tops.
Wonder if he will have better luck than Phil Mac 🙂
People mentioning that was 30 years ago,£2:50 extra for games,not much for tv rights,less for Europe etc
How much did you get for your POUND compared with today?
And if you got less Monet How much harder would it hit you for revamping / building a new oversized all seater stadium?
But Could have been worse they Could have said you weren’t eligible for promotion 🙁 Oh that’s right they did
🙁 And Yes my club Celtic was complicate in all this as Well
So get off your high horse and stop trying to excuse what every club in the top flight was involved in 🙁
Tcup says
Can someone please tell me what teams like Aberdeen ,Dundee Unt, Dundee etc
Done with their money While they.were winning titles cups European trophies and packing out their stadiums.week.in week out ?
Why do fans from outside the OLD old firm always blame Celtic and rangers(IL) instead of looking closer to home?
Yes as time went on a massive gap appeared between the So called.big 2 and the rest But it was not so long ago other teams were raking in money as Well 🙂 the leagues were tight We has hearts,hibs etc pushing teams all the way 🙂
So why keep blaming a dead club and Celtic for money their own teams owners and board’s swallowed up ?
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Previous period of success are not comparable to the SPL years. Dundee united’s average home gate has exceeded 12k twice in their history. TV money and merchandising rights have consequently led to a massive gulf between the Glasgow giants and the rest. The 11-1 voting structure made this situation worse still, and that was a duopoly….whether you like it or not! It functioned to keep all clubs outside the big two lagging behind, the wage inflation of the SPL years almost killed the game, and while each club is responsible for their own mistakes, it is also true that the market place was distorted by the policies of Murray. The insipid nature of the distribution of prize monies is what hosed off a lot of fans. Celtic and Rangers kept the lions share of the cash, and it represented only marginal income of a few %, for the rest the prize money could represent 30 or 40% such was the scale of the gap. There was a real feeling the big two were happy to keep their boot on the heads of the rest……unless of course they were performing badly in Europe, in which case it was because Aberdeen and Dundee United et al. were not giving them a stern enough test….so they both whined for years about going to England where their ‘bigness’ would be properly appreciated and rewarded.
tcup 2012 says:
October 9, 2013 at 1:44 pm
=========================
Sophistry.
Inflation isn’t the issue. The fact that there are now many millions available from European competition that simply weren’t there before is what has made the difference. Football finances in Europe are now totally different from back when Celtic were competing in the latter stages in European competition.
In addition there is now a league structure to the CL, at least in part. So once teams reach that stage they are guaranteed at least another 6 games and a minimum income. Back in the day it was knock-out from start to finish. So a team could have just two games and that was their lot.
Comparing income from European football now to the way it was a few decades ago is nonsense. TV money and the CL structure changed everything. It was designed to, to ensure that teams at that level had a guaranteed number of games and minimum income.
The Champions league is as much a TV event as it is a business as it is a sporting competition.
dedeideoprofundis says:
October 9, 2013 at 12:03 pm
11 0 Rate This
Dr. Mike McDermott @MikejMcDermott 20m
Relegation for going in to admin instead of a points deduction & signing ban
============
Perhaps a wee nudge to DK to stress the urgency of the rescue?
————–
If the Walter Smith economic doctrine is followed (“You can’t just sit on the board and say, ‘We can’t afford that.'”) there is the distinct possibility that Ibrox could see admin every other year. Not an undesirable outcome if you are a lower-league fan. Indeed, this yo-yo existence between the 3rd and 4th tier would benefit all the other lower-league clubs immensely. And in theory, this state of affairs could continue for 25 years, the length of Ally’s tenure as once suggested by Charles of Normandy!
Arabest1
A couple of points otherwise in general agreement. What this utter farce has demonstrated to many is that ‘bigness’ is not actually built on success (meaning moments of triumph in the sport) per se. Bigness has come to mean, well, literally that. Commercially big. Commerce has brought revenues, revenues have brought expansion, expansion has brought expectation (what one club in particular would be better referring to as entitlement) and with that poorly controlled expectation so came the day of reckoning for those caught swimming with no britches to borrow the common City metaphor. BBC do not cover 3rd div games because the participants are ‘successful.’ They cover them because one participant is ‘big.’
I actually disagree with your point about the boot on the head – although things like the away support 5% ‘reservation fee’ in Glasgow proves that the mantle did occasionally slip. The 1st / 2nd distribution in the old SPL as was, combined with the 11-1 rule to remove it, was obscene, pure and simple. Firstly said rule did not appear as if by magic, it was voted in. Secondly, I’m not convinced that the old firm directors sat down and worked out a magic formula of giving the rest ‘just enough.’ Rather, they understandably sat down and grabbed as much as they could (and make no mistake I am of the view it was far too much) to provide a safety net for the one that caught the bus, not the helicopter! The rest of the funds were scraps thrown from the table as it were. It was designed, I believe, to provide a safety net for the old firm to allow them to ‘have a go’ in Europe. It has been commented on here endlessly that there were and remain those in various seats of power, be that commerce, media, sporting authority etc etc that saw scottish football as the old firm, end of. If their 2-to-the-fore model worked then everything else would presumably follow, wouldn’t it? That was their view, they were entitled to it. Just as I am to mine, that they were wrong.
btw if any fans are as precious as to take offence at the purely descriptive old firm tag then read this as arsenal, spurs etc in the CL. It’s exactly the same principle.
EDIT: deliberately highlighted as central to my arguement …
It has been commented on here endlessly that there were and remain those in various seats of power, be that commerce, media, sporting authority, OTHER CLUB’s BOARDS etc etc that saw scottish football as the old firm, end of. If their 2-to-the-fore model worked then everything else would presumably follow, wouldn’t it?
As a result of responding to Tweets from Ewan Murray and Tom English re Walter Smith’s latest interview I was reminded of the following article for CQN Magazine. I hope non Celtic supporters will overlook that it was written for a Celtic audience and find the figures of interest.
The relevance is RIFC seem intent on more of the same (but without EBTs or bank debt to fund their plans).
Why G.O.D (Generation of Domination) Never Turned Up and Other Celtic Myths.
•
Myth : a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation.
•
any invented story, idea, or concept:
•
an unproved or false collective belief.
Over the last decade the anger amongst our supporters appears to have been fuelled by three myths:
•
Celtic by being able to match or better what Rangers could offer in wages and so attract better players, should have dominated the SPL in title winning terms.
•
A “skint” Rangers have won three titles in a row against a richer Celtic.
•
Celtic failed to spend a few million in Jan 2009 to “put a hose” in Rangers mouth to put them out of business.
I was drawn down the road of myth challenging having read “Why England Lose” and Soccernomics (both by Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski). Both publications set out to challenge some of the beliefs that hold soccer in thrall through the use of data rather than uninformed opinions. In the Chapter The Worst Business In The World (Soccernomics) they present what I call the First Law of Soccernomics which states (to paraphrase)
Clubs that follow a break even/low debt/low profit policy do not win trophies/titles (but do meet their budget parameters over a period) whereas clubs that spend with no thought to profit or break even and with disregard for debt, win the titles but run at a loss over time. In short – Debt rules – OK?.
Alan Sugar’s time at Tottenham Hotspur where he wanted to run the club like a business that lived within its means is cited, but more recently Arsenal have joined the party and of course closer to our hearts so have Celtic. Our combined experience illustrates a paradox : when business people try to run a socccer club as a business then not only does the soccer suffer, so does the business.
Others tried a different road assuming prizes mean profit, but that too is wrong. I will not bore you with the data but it supports the First Law and the prime reason is that the biggest slice of money soccer makes goes to the players. Soccer is simply a conduit through which income, mainly from supporters, flows into players pockets. The cost of winning prizes is simply too high.
The problem for Celtic in Scotland is that since 2004 we have tried to run Celtic as a business whilst since 2001 (and before) Rangers have chosen the other route and not only ignored profit/break even but have consistently embraced debt.
Given the First Law and using the comparable debt degree as the prime success factor I thought it would be interesting to compare debt with prizes at both Celtic and Rangers since 2001 and the following table makes interesting reading. I also threw in Rangers contribution to EBTS as a means of paying players as this enabled them to offer higher wages to combat the time when Celtic were pursuing the same “debt is good” policy as Rangers. Typically, even when we were playing the same debt game, they had to seek advantage. I have also included the managers as their quality (or lack of it) and the rebuilding that came with them can explain the odd hiccup against the law.
The role of Debt (and EBT’s) in winning trophies
Rangers Celtic
Year Manager Manager Debt £Ms Debt £Ms EBT Cont Title winner Note
2001 Advocatt/McL O Neil £22.00 £29.60 £1,010,000 Celtic 1
2002 McLeish O Neil £52.00 £16.50 £5,176,000 Celtic
2003 Mcleish O Neil £68.00 £17.80 £6,791,000 Rangers
2004 McLeish O Neil £73.90 £15.80 £7,252,000 Celtic
2005 Mcleish O Neil £23.10 £19.50 £7,241,000 Rangers 2
2006 Le Guen Strachan £5.90 £9.00 £9,192,000 Celtic 3
2007 PLG/Smith Strachan £16.50 £5.00 £4,998,000 Celtic
2008 Smith Strachan £21.60 £3.50 £2,291,000 Celtic
2009 Smith GS/Mobray £31.10 £1.50 £2,360,000 Rangers
2010 Smith TM/Lennon £27.10 £5.90 £1,358,000 Rangers
2011 Smith Lennon £18.00 £0.50 nk Rangers
£47,669,000
Note 1. Gross proceeds of £22.52M raised from the issue in July 2001 of Convertible Preferred Ordinary Shares.
Note 2. A Rights Issue in December 2004 raised £51.4m before expenses, most of which was provided by Sir David Murray via MIH. Total net debt was £23.1m (2004 – £73.9m). (Pressure to reduce debt comes as result of Halifax and Bank of Scotland merging in 2001. Halifax amazed at debt when books examined)
Note 3. The successful £15m share issue in December 2005 rebuilt the balance sheet, reducing bank debt from £19.3m to £9.1m
In 2001 and 2002 Celtic won the title and more or less matched Rangers for debt. Over the two years theirs was £74M and ours £68.5 allowing for the £22,5 share issue income in 2001 reducing the figures for 2001 and 2002 to that shown above. Martin O Neil was the deciding factor. In 2003 Rangers on EBT steroids won (by a goal) with significantly higher debt of £68M whilst our debt was pretty much on par with the actual previous year figure in 2002 and the slow lane was still ahead. We bounced back in 2004 despite Rangers debt rising to £74M because we still had the better players and manager but no Road To Seville or family illness to distract us. However in 2005 Rangers, with greater debt than us and still on EBT steroids, took the title on the last day from an O Neil team needing freshening with players of the same quality as 2001, but who now cost considerably more to buy. In 2006 our debt is higher than Rangers (who had shifted much of theirs to MIH) and Gordon Strachan won the first of his titles. He was to repeat this in 2007 and 2008 in spite of Rangers debt overtaking ours, but in 2009, the jump in Rangers debt from £5.9M in 2006 to £31.1M in 2009 and our reduction to just £1.5M was too much for Celtic to handle and the First Law – Debt rules OK?- reasserted itself.
Whilst there has been the odd title going against the First Law (mainly due to manager changeover or manager quality), by and large the First Law holds sway. So what lessons can be learned, what myths challenged by the First Law?
1.
It matters not what a club’s income is, what determines more than anything the destination of trophies is what a club is able to get away with overspending.
2.
A club cannot win trophies or face significant challenges in doing so if their rivals ignore normal business practice and choose not to live within their means and overspend.
3.
Celtic can either change policy and take unacceptable risks with Celtic’s existence or let the consequences of unsustainable debt force Rangers to change their policy or die.
4.
“Skint” means the inability to spend, not the lack of money to spend. Since Rangers were able to spend by using debt they were never skint.
5.
Celtic did not fail to put a hose in Rangers mouth in 2009, they simply stayed with their break even policy and, if we use debt as the road to success measure, the cost of matching Rangers success would have been more in the region of £29.6M.
6.
In any case football depends on competition to provide a game, so whilst putting a hose in Celtic’s mouth in 1994 might have been Rangers narrow minded and short sighted aim, by 2003 killing off the competition did not make business sense in Soccernomics terms. It is doubtful if that was ever Celtic’s aim, although depriving them of Champions League money and so maintaining the advantage that money gave Celtic in playing terms would have been, but not at the debt matching price (£29.6M) the First Law of Soccernomics – Debt rules ok?- suggests was required.
“ Anyone who spends any time inside soccer soon discovers that just as oil is part of the oil business, stupidity is part of the soccer business”
Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski – Soccernomics.
Original is at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mbjSTpOvkG_av5MrXlRjSPAhLv6YHyZ9QRdVZ2o2ooY/edit