A Guest Blog by Auldheid for TSFM
Honesty requires both transparency and accountability. In pursuit of honest, transparent and accountable governance of Scottish football, and only that objective, the following letter, with attachments, has been sent to SPFL lawyers, CEO and SPFL Board Members.
An honest game free from deception is what football supporters of all clubs want. It is the action the letter and attachments prompt that will tell us if there is any intention of providing it.
It is a response on behalf of readers here on TSFM, but the sentiment which underpins it is almost universally held amongst fans of all clubs. Importantly it is a response directly to all clubs, especially those with a SPFL Board member, that will make the clubs and the football authorities aware just how seriously supporters take the restoration of trust in an honest game, honestly governed.
The annexes to the letter contain information which may be published at a later date. We thought it appropriate to first await any response from any of the recipients.
Please also draw this to the attention of friends who are not internet using supporters and love their football and their club.
Auldheid
__________________________________________________________________
Harper MacLeod
The Ca’d’oro
45 Gordon Street
Glasgow
G1 3PE
19 Feb 2014
Copy sent to SPFL CEO and Board Members *
Dear Mr McKenzie
We the contributors to The Scottish Football Monitoring web site write to you in your capacity as the legal adviser employed by Harper MacLeod to assist the Scottish Premier League (now the Scottish Professional Football League) to gather evidence and investigate the matter of incorrect player registrations involving concealed side letters and employee benefit trusts as defined in the eventual Lord Nimmo Smith Commission.
We note from the then SPL announcement that set up an enquiry that the initial date range to be covered was from the inception of the SPL in July 1998, but that was changed to 23 November 2000 because, according to our understanding, that is the date of the first side letter supplied by Rangers Administrators Duff and Phelps. It is also our understanding that the SPL asked for all documentation relating to side letters as well as the letters themselves.
It is a matter of public record that Rangers Administrators failed to supply the SPL all relevant documentation. Indeed the seriousness of not complying with SPL requests was the subject of an admonition of Rangers/Duff and Phelps from Lord Nimmo Smith under Issue 4 of his Commission.
Quite how serious that failure to comply or concealment was in terms of misleading the Commission and so Lord Nimmo Smith can now be assessed from the information contained at Annexes 1 to 10 attached.
We think that as legal advisers to the SPL (now the SPFL) you have a responsibility to make them aware that their Commission was misled by the concealment of documents starting on 3 September 1999, and signed by current SFA President Campbell Ogilvie, whose silence on the ebt matters referred to in the attached annexes* is questionable at the very least.
This letter but not attachments is being posted on The Scottish Football Monitor web site as this is matter for all of Scottish football and support for the issue being pursued to establish the truth can be gauged by responses from supporters from all Scottish clubs once the letter has been published there.
A copy of this letter with Annexes has also been sent to the SPFL CEO and members of the SPFL Board.
Acknowledgement of receipt and reply can be sent by e mail to:
(Address supplied)
Yours in sport
On behalf of The Scottish Football Monitor contributors and readers. http://www.tsfm.org.uk/
Addressees copied in
Neil Doncaster CEO
The Scottish Professional Football League
Hampden Park
Glasgow G42 9DE
Eric Riley (Celtic),
The Celtic Football Club
Celtic Park
Glasgow G40 3RE
Stephen Thompson (Dundee United),
Tannadice Park,
Tannadice Street,
Dundee, DD3 7JW
Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen);
Aberdeen Football Club plc
Pittodrie Stadium
Pittodrie Street
Aberdeen AB24 5QH
Les Gray (Hamilton),
Hamilton Academical FC
New Douglas Park
Hamilton
ML3 0FT
Mike Mulraney (Alloa)
Alloa Athletic FC
Clackmannan Road
Recreation Park
Alloa FK10 1RY
Bill Darroch (Stenhousemuir).
Stenhousemuir F.C.
Ochilview Park
Gladstone Road
Stenhousemuir
Falkirk
FK5 4QL
Hoopy 7 says:
March 21, 2014 at 1:39 pm
…………………………..
Tonights quiz question…
The only person I am aware of that has been charged by the SFA and fined for tapping up was…
ekt1m says:
March 21, 2014 at 7:53 pm
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Noticed a few comments today on AmcC’s admission that he has spoken to 2 players about joining up with him at Sevco. It appears to me that he is relying on not naming said players to avoid accusations of “tapping up”, unless they are out of contract at the end of the current season, as he can speak to them openly.
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Ones definitely Hutchie he’s a free agent and they wont need to pay a penny as he’s 24, despite we’ve brought him on since 18. Up till the Inverness game a few opined his mind wasn’t on it. So can only guess the deals done in his head anyway. Maybe different when it goes to getting paid what he’s promised but that’s life. No doubt Ally will ruin him too as he has done Law.
Never mind who’s next? We will need a replacement for him, probably Ainsworth maybe others by July all being ‘Well 😎
Same old Same old.
Here’s an interesting list/quiz of old departees from the ‘Well all scoring 20 plus goals before being poached. For our Demographic I bet you all get it right where they went to. (Thanks to Steelmenonline for stats:
Ian St John & Pat Quinn 1959/60
Pat Quinn 1960/61
Pat Quinn 1961/62
Joe McBride 1963/64
Joe McBride 1964/65
John Deans 1968/69
Willie Pettigrew 1974/75
Willie Pettigrew 1975/76
Willie Pettigrew 1976/77
Brian McLaughlin 1981/82
Michael Higdon 2012/13
Paulmac2 says:
March 21, 2014 at 8:12 pm
Answer
Fergus McCann , fined £100K
So in the past few days we’ve seen 5 player linked with signing for TRFC in the SMSM, Shaun Hutchinson, Kenny McClean, Federico Macheda, Kris Boyd & Kenny Miller.
In yesterday’s BBC piece McCoist was quoted as saying that he wouldn’t name the players but BBC named two in the very next sentence. (How strange)
He also appears to say that he knows the club are skint, but needs to plan ahead anyway (eh?) & he also takes the opportunity to remind the world that they are so 9disadvantaged by their lack of a scouting system.
Tonight via BBC stuart McCall claims that neither him, Hutchinson or his agent have been contacted by Rangers.
Every one involved at Motherwell knows that Hutchinson is away, it’s really a non-story. This depressing and obvious generation of a rumour then follow up with the players club is just tedious beyond belief. The insult of the intelligence of the scottish football fan is breathtaking.
On top of that, McCoist is in the crowd at Tynecastle tonight, obviously watching Utd, but Gary Mac needed to point out that ‘he’s recruiting’
Also. . . .
While we’re talking about the copious mince the MSM DO cover. We should also remind ourselves of what they WON’T cover.
Just like the audited accounts issue, the European Qualification issue is avoided like the plague.
I mean technically Sevco are one game away from European non qualification. But discussing that means re opening old wounds.
Funny that.
We deserve better
I meant to edit poached to transferred.
Eejit
John Clark, any thoughts on Brora taking their league to court if the decision to expel them from the Highland League Cup is not changed.
Here we have a club who have admitted fielding an unregistered player in a cup game , the player is listed on the Brora website as having 6 appearances although it is claimed he was on the bench for another 5 games. So even if we allow for three as a trialist that still leaves 8 games where Brora played or could play an unregistered player. He was released by senior club and was picked up by Brora.
As far as I can find out there has been no club pulled up for playing a unregistered player ever in the Highland League Cup so there is no precedent set.
Its interesting to observe that Brora Rangers have been found guilty of regularly fielding an unregistered player and yet every post here has been defending them / suggesting they should take the league to court, and not one post has condemned them for cheating.
RyanGosling says:
March 21, 2014 at 9:56 pm
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I think you’ll find it’s only cheating if Sandy Bryson says so.
RyanGosling says:
March 21, 2014 at 9:56 pm
“…every post here has been defending them / suggesting they should take the league to court, and not one post has condemned them for cheating.”
———————————–
Yes indeed.
Player eligibility should be clearly defined and adhered to. If Brora Rangers have contravened the rules then they are liable to be sanctioned.
I think the comparison is being drawn with other cases were eligibility has not been so clearly defined. It could be that Brora might point to inconsistencies in applying sanctions and potentially argue a case from that standpoint. It would be disappointing to find that Brora could infringe the rules on eligibility due to the failure of the governing body to apply the rules fairly. However, should Brora take that approach it would be an avenue that would be open to all clubs and which therefore would confer no particular sporting advantage.
Sorry to twist your words but it came out all wrong as I was writing.
Ryan, Stranger than tha,t is we are hearing that a SHFL team can play an unregistered player in the league from the start of the season until the 16th of March, this coming from a Cove supporting, mouthpiece.for Brora. Interestingly there is a SFA Vice President who has a background at Cove,
Now like many fans I go along to game expecting players to be registered or listed as a trialist and if this is true it throws the whole game on it’s head as you will have teams abusing this situation for runs of important games.
Doesn’t sound fair and proper at all Highland League Fan. I agree, players should be properly registered so that teams can’t abuse the situation. Can’t remember who posted the comment the other day about the rules being keenly enforced at amateur level to stop “ringers” coming in from a higher level when teams were desperate for points and unfairly schewing the competition, but it was an excellent point. Such important rules, so keenly enforced at amateur level, are integral to the sport and should be enforced at all levels. Hopefully the Highland League will deal with that properly. The suggested link with the SFA Vice President is disturbingly familiar.
Castofthousands, John Clark posted the relevant rule for The Highland League Cup a couple of pages back, Brora have admitted that he was unregistered and he came on as a sub, as far as we can find out there has been no others cases in this competition of a club playing an unregistered player.
Brora signed up to the rules and one of them is the League Management Committee decision is final, now you can argue that is unfair but you do it when you are agreeing the rules not when you get caught and don’t like the punishment.
Highland League Fan says:
March 21, 2014 at 10:29 pm
“Brora signed up to the rules and one of them is the League Management Committee decision is final,…”
———————————-
I’m not condoning or condemning Brora’s approach. I am merely musing that any inconsistency in the application of rules may be exploited. I recall JC’s post. At the time the LNS decision on registration was under discussion. I’m not sure if JC’s info inferred that the LNS decision could invite some wriggle room for Brora as HFL was subordinate to SFA.
Angus1983 says:
March 21, 2014 at 7:49 pm
BigGav says:
March 21, 2014 at 11:34 am
For what it’s worth, I remember around 20 years ago a guy called Peter Burns decided to investigate the issue ‘scientifically’ by examining press reports of controversial decisions in Old Firm games over a period of decades …
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It may well be the case that Rangers got more “luck” than Celtic in OF games. However, I hardly think an analysis of press reports is anywhere near a good starting point!
************
Well, there was no Youtube in those days – all he had to go on were several decades of press match reports. The idea was that if there was no bias, you would expect disputed/controversial decisions to favour neither side over the long run, but his investigations revealed that these types of decisions were to the advantage of Rangers much more often than not.
It was an early example of internet bampottery. (Yes, the internet predates the World Wide Web – there was (and still is) something called Usenet, where these findings were discussed.)
Ryan Gosling at 10.21pm. You are correct that fielding improperly registered players should face sanctions, The problem as i see it is that the “Bryson Interpretation” says that retrospective sanctions cannot be carried out prior to the breach of rule being discovered. Any punishment can only be from date of discovery. If I have got that wrong I’d be happy to be corrected.
easyJambo says:
March 21, 2014 at 5:39 pm
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Campbellsmoney says: March 21, 2014 at 5:32 pm
I heard Chic Young on the wireless a few weeks ago – speaking to some Rangers “legend” – a player from the 60s or so – I can’t recall – the name meant nothing to me at all. They were both laughing about the ability of this player to win penalties.
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I’m sure it was Davie Wilson. In today’s football parlance he would be described as “clever” or “goes down easily”, but not a “diver” because he wasn’t Jonny Foreigner.
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My teenage recall of the 1965 Scottish Cup final replay, when Kai Johansen scored the winner is, of John Clark, no, the real one, (not you JC!) “meeting” Mr Wilson with his right shoulder, very close to the corner flag in the Mount Florida end (South Stand side). Mr Wilson somehow managed to meet the Hampden turf with some theatrics, to the great disapproval of the supporters of RFC(IL). As I recall, Mr Clark (the real one again) was merely booked…changed times indeed!
Mr Wilson was never considered a “diver” in modern parlance, in the same vein as Herr Kleinsmann, but he was perceived to “go down easily”…!
EKTim I wouldn’t disagree with anything you said there. In fact I’d go so far as to say I agree wholeheartedly and the “Bryson Interpretation” poses many questions. I am not arguing with any of your astute points.
The only thing I’d add though is that that is not what my original post mentioned, which seems to have been very badly received judging by the rule of thumbs. Cheating is cheating. Rangers have officially been widely excused of dubious past actions as a result of the “Bryson Interpretation”, but that did not stop many posters here from condemning both the interpretation and the dubious actions as cheating. And yet when dubious registration practices of another side are brought to light the comments are tellingly conspicuous in their absence of condemnation. I can understand that parallels are drawn with the Rangers situation and analogies of “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander” are entirely fair. But Rangers have been slaughtered here for the actions in question and the decision in question. Brora have had no such comments. An open mind, as TSFM earlier mentioned, is a virtue, and if posters here are so keen to rally against any form of cheating as we all like to think we are such rallying should be fairly applied to all teams, without fear or favour as the saying goes.
TSFM has regularly qualified comments here with statements along the lines of “this is your blog” – I may well be paraphrasing. But I have always taken such sentiments to heart and will jealously defend the virtues of this blog. And I think an important part of that is to “ask the questions the media won’t ask” to be sure, but also to apply all principles equally. Where cheating is to be (rightly) condemned, it should be condemned, and that should not depend on who the offending party is.
For example: “Brora cheated by not registering players correctly. They should be stripped of any points gained when that player was involved.”
I confess I don’t know the details of the Brora case. But if you substitute the word “Brora” for the word “Rangers” in the above statement, that is the difference between 100 thumbs up and 100 thumbs down here. I participate in The Scottish Football Monitor because I believe, ultimately, people here want to see rules applied fairly, want to see all teams treated fairly, and want to scream abuse at opposing fans just because they enjoy hating them for 90 minutes and for no other reason.
Highland League Fan says:
March 21, 2014 at 9:52 pm
‘John Clark, any thoughts on Brora taking their league to court if the decision to expel them from the Highland League Cup is not changed…’
————–
I think something of the unholy mess that our football authorities got us into is beginning to manifest itself.
Bryson’s interpretation in effect abolished the very notion that ‘eligibility’ mattered. He appeared to argue that only ‘formal revocation’ ends eligibilty. That would mean that any player’s registration remains valid up to the point where it is actively revoked. Most of us think that that is just nonsense.
But if it was used to protect the players of the dead Rangers, then it would be farcical if Brora were not to be afforded the same protection, because Watt’s registration with ICT ( or maybe even the Scottish Schools FA!) has not been ‘formally revoked’ , as far as anyone knows.
Brora, in my view, would be entitled to seek the Court’s assistance to
a) establish that the HL’s rule which does not allow an appeal against a League Management disciplinary decision is contrary to natural justice, and when that is established
b) order the SFA, as the ultimate governing body, to instruct the HL to allow an appeal to the SFA ( in the absence of an HL appeals machinery of its own).
AND to approach the Courts without fear of any more action being taken against them for so doing than was taken against the Ibrox club.
It is shocking that the Football Authorities have caused such a major balls-up, and it is right that their twisted logic should come back and haunt them. Rules cease to be rules in any meaningful sense when the very administrators of the rules lose all credibility by themselves perverting them.
Alan Price says:
March 21, 2014 at 6:45 pm
The the above was a view I used to subscribe to, but after listening to an interview on Radio Scotland with Brian Dempsey I changed my mind.
Dempsey was unequivocal in his opinion that the Bank of Scotland execs he dealt with could not have been more helpful when they heard Fergus McCann’s plans to settle the debt, something the Kellys and the Whytes could not manage.
Strange, but apparently true.
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AP, whilst I have no inside info on the BOS account, I can only but imagine that any BOS executive would have been more than helpful in such a case, particularly where an independent/external investor, in the form of Mr McCann and any related consortia appeared with a proposal to eliminate what BOS was a potential bad debt…akin to a Messiah ( I almost alluded to an “off the radar billionaire”) appearing with a blank cheque (not drawn on BoS!)
As to the banking credibility of the White(s) and Kelly(s), my experience of them at Uni in Glasgow bears out Mr McCann’s dismissal of them, without recompense whatsoever.
Ryan
The difference between Brora and Rangers (IL) is that the former fully admit to an administrative error which they say is the first for twenty years.
Like you I do not know what that error was. However I guess that it will end up being similar to the Spartans debacle of not dating a second copy of registration papers.
One thing we know for sure is that for bringing on a young player with an administratevly problematic registration for the last five minutes of a game you are winning 3-0 gets you thrown out the HFL league cup while 10 years of systematic administrative errors, non disclosure of side letters and underhand payments gets you a fine that nobody can pay anyway and a judicial stamp that no sporting advantage was gained.
I am a big fan of you being here but playing the pedantry card doesn’t become you.
causaludendi says:
March 21, 2014 at 2:43 pm
bogsdollox says:
March 21, 2014 at 1:00 pm
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
I’m very far from being a fan of the chap but I think it’s stretching it a bit to call someone who served as Secretary of State for Health, Secretary of Defence, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Home Secretary, Secretary of State for Scotland, as well as other positions in the cabinet / Parliament a failed politician?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It might astound you to know that many who suffered from his neo liberal policies think you are wrong. It was one of the last things they wiz expecting frae an ex member of the Communist Party.
…..”Klinsman”…with all apologies, especially to my local supporters of THFC…!
wildwood says:
March 21, 2014 at 8:32 pm
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If I’m being fair in my assessment of Hutch – I would say he’s still a raw big lad at 24 and will do well in Div 1.
Wottpi forgive me for further pedantry but does / should admitting any error make any difference to whether an act is denounced as cheating?
Secondly, bringing on a young player with an administratively problematic registration…is not a qualification people have applied to games where Rangers may have brought on Flo for the last five minutes, as an example.
I’m trying to point out that while I agree that rules should be applied without fear or favour by the SFA, I also think they should be applied without fear or favour by TSFM.
You summed it up very well – last five minutes gets you thrown out the HFL league cup, 10 years gets you a fine – perfect summation, with the finale that both are cheating and both should have the same punishment. Larger obviously for 10 years as opposed to one game, but pro rata the same no matter the party involved. And I believe TSFM should aspire to seeing such fairness applied.
Lastly, may I say I very much appreciate your kind words and I did not intend to play a pedantry card. Ecobhoy has called me out here before for not expressing a point well and offering qualified apologies, but all I can say is if we keep going back and forth I’m sure we’ll eventually understand each other.
essexbeancounter says:
March 22, 2014 at 12:29 am
“……I can only but imagine that any BOS executive would have been more than helpful in such a case, particularly where an independent/external investor, in the form of Mr McCann and any related consortia appeared with a proposal to eliminate what BOS was a potential bad debt…”
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With the most humble respect, Essexbc, I refer you to the words of Mr McCann, that sainted man:
“Had the bank co-operated with me when I had earlier deposited £11million with them to show I had the capital, the crisis could have been avoided.”
I think Fergus was actually p.ssed off by the bloody-mindedness of the BoS and thought of them as being entirely unhelpful.
But I’m happy to endorse your view of Messrs White and Kelly and families as being churlishly and childishly out of their depth and obstructive with it. 🙂
Ryan
My turn to be a pedant
Error and cheat.
Look them up in the dictionary.
While admittedly I do not know the full details of the Brora story my guess is that it will be a genuine administrative error by some longstanding unpaid servant of the club who is hanging their head in shame.
Meanwhile the highly conflicted worlds greatest football administrator with dabs all over side letters says he ‘knows nothing’ and that a big boy did and ran away just before depositing ninety thousand tax free pounds in his bank account. 🙂
RyanGosling says:
March 22, 2014 at 12:46 am
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Wottpi forgive me for further pedantry but does / should admitting any error make any difference to whether an act is denounced as cheating?
Secondly, bringing on a young player with an administratively problematic registration…is not a qualification people have applied to games where Rangers may have brought on Flo for the last five minutes, as an example.
I’m trying to point out that while I agree that rules should be applied without fear or favour by the SFA, I also think they should be applied without fear or favour by TSFM.
You summed it up very well – last five minutes gets you thrown out the HFL league cup, 10 years gets you a fine – perfect summation, with the finale that both are cheating and both should have the same punishment. Larger obviously for 10 years as opposed to one game, but pro rata the same no matter the party involved. And I believe TSFM should aspire to seeing such fairness applied.
Lastly, may I say I very much appreciate your kind words and I did not intend to play a pedantry card. Ecobhoy has called me out here before for not expressing a point well and offering qualified apologies, but all I can say is if we keep going back and forth I’m sure we’ll eventually understand each other.
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You’re entirely right Ryan.
Without fear or favour.
But I think the probelm is best summarised thus:
1 stressed and hard pressed probably volunteer/part time club secretary at a part time club is heavily punished for an adminsitrative oversight within a rule that is designed to uphold fairplay… to the possible advantage of 1 club that progressed in a round that by rights they should have lost byt a margin
vs rules being bent over backwards to excuse their deliberate and blatant circumvention by a high profile institution that should be setting itself up as an inspiration, not merely an example, with the full complicity and even obfuscation of the sporting authorities, for using teams of well paid lawyers to tilt the whole basis of the sport in its favour, by deliberately, intentionally and knowledgeably using a combination of illegal and legally questionable contrivances.
There is no way on God’s good earth that the law of natural justice can be reconciled with this scenario.
I make no escuse for Brora.
But they serve as proof positive of the corruption in our sport and the unfitness of the SFA.
We should not be advocating leniency for them.
We should be pushing for consistency from our footballing authorities, and highlighting their deficiencies.
To the sponsors!
Appointments for kids eyetests/glasses appointments just dropped through the door. Will write to specsavers and explain why I shall be taking them elsewhere on this occasion.
Folks, you may remember we had a debate about funding which was coming to a close when the DOS attack took place. This caused the postponement of the mods meeting to discuss that issue as well as delaying the next Podcast. The Podcast will now be available next week, and we have at last discussed the Funding situation.
We have come to consensus, broadly in line with your wishes, that we should not have ads on the site meantime, and that we will add a subscription option to the donations page, whilst still retaining the current one-off donation.
Because of PayPal charges, we have made the minimum sub £3.00.
I’ve just listened to the SSB Podcast for 19 March 2014 (I know I’m a glutton for punishment, but we all have at least one guilty pleasure; don’t we?) 😳
I highly recommend a listen to Eddie castigating the panel on their abject failure to demonstrate a more positive attitude to promoting Scottish football between from about 40 to 50 minutes.
No surprise that Gordon Dalziel refused to accept the salient points made by Eddie and maintained he had made positive comments, but could only come up with one example from the recent past when he had talked positively about Scottish football.
Here’s a link for those who can bear the potential damage to their ears and sanity: 🙄
http://www.clyde1.com/on-air/superscoreboard/superscoreboard-podcast/
EDIT:
Oh and just before the end at about 1 Hour and 13 minutes Brian stumped the panel by asking them to name one player from the English Premiership or Championship that would improve the current Celtic 1st eleven and who is available for £6 million?
Worth a listen just to hear the panel talk absolute mince without being able to mention the actual name of one player! Although, after a few minutes one of the panel said that they thought there might be one who had signed for Swansea City, but couldn’t remember his name. Scotland’s “top football Experts”, my erchie!! Hilarious. 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
Wottpi, an excellent summary sir. Until they remove CO from office then I’m afraid there will always be a stench of corruption hanging around the corridors of power. There has to be other heads rolling but when one so obviously conflicted manages to stay in his position, not only does it stink to high heaven but inflicts a sense of anger in many, with the way the suits think they are more important that the game itself.
The corridors of power need an absolute clear out. Clear, defined rules need to be obeyed and with the slightest hint of impropriety, Farry, Ogilvie, Bryson et al, stand down until an independent investigation is carried out with no favours given. Any membership of secret organisations must be resigned and anybody found to be disregarding this edict, removed from office immediately.
Until somebody grabs this by the scruff of the neck and shakes the crap out of it, then I’m afraid it’s more of the same for the foreseeable future.
Ps: Auldheid, your attempts are commendable. There should be more like you.
Ryan has a point, Brora should drop the rangers bit, then maybe they could pass it off as a clerical mistake, instead of being accused of cheating.
Re McCoist. I suspect he is preparing for a big comedown.How can he talk about signing this player or that player when the clumpany is skint.I can just hear the anguish when he finally has to come clean.”I tried my best but my hands were tied from day one” Cue crocodile tears.Once again he will distance himself,blame all and sundry while keeping onside with the bears.
essexbeancounter says:
March 22, 2014 at 12:29 am
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Alan Price says:
March 21, 2014 at 6:45 pm
The the above was a view I used to subscribe to, but after listening to an interview on Radio Scotland with Brian Dempsey I changed my mind.
Dempsey was unequivocal in his opinion that the Bank of Scotland execs he dealt with could not have been more helpful when they heard Fergus McCann’s plans to settle the debt, something the Kellys and the Whytes could not manage.
Strange, but apparently true.
==========================================
To counter that Fergus McCann said around the same time the Bank of Scotland ‘did not want him to succeed’ in his Celtic takeover.
Sometimes people don’t like to discuss institutionalised bias, or the possibility of it. Personally I don’t think such a thing is impossible. Had the BOS succeeded in their attempt to put Celtic into receivership I think there is a real chance that would have been the end for any club called Celtic. Most significantly for me was McCann’s assertion that only the English based Co-op bank were willing to give Celtic a fair deal based on their business plan.
sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolis says:
March 22, 2014 at 1:29 am
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I’ve just listened to the SSB Podcast for 19 March 2014 (I know I’m a glutton for punishment, but we all have at least one guilty pleasure; don’t we?)
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The SSB has been hitting new lows this week. I can listen through most things but this week’s outpourings from GD and DJ have been, intelligence wise, aff thon radar.
Stephen Thompson ‘never protested or raised the issue at the time’ [venue, potential problems]. This line has been done to death most of the week.
But last night had DJ asking how long Stephen T. can just keep saying things and get away with them. I would not have believed it if I hadn’t heard it wi ma ain lugs.
On the media. I thought JI had gone? If so, who is writing these stories about every man and his dog about to make a triumphant return to Ibrox? Sounds to me like multi pies in the sky or a concerted effort to big up the season ticket sales drive.
Thanks John Clark for your reply, as usual, replies throw up more queries.
That Bryson appeared to argue that only ‘formal revocation’ ends eligibilty, does muddy the waters, can it not be the case that in the like of Schools football or Youth football that when you reach the age where you are no longer eligible to play at that age group level that your registration has been formally revoked?
The situation with ICT and the player could be seen along the same lines, he was registered as a player (where a limit is set on the amount of players ICT can have at that age group, I believe ) he was released and,if his registration was not formally revoked then ICT couldn’t have the option of bringing in another player to replace him in their U20 team squad.
Brora, even after taking legal advice ( the best in Scotland, if their supporters are to be believed) have admitted that the player was unregistered so I would have thought they would have looked at all possibilities of claiming he was eligible to play by dint of having been registered at 11 years old etc.
Brora might have a case against not having the right of appeal, however given that they have admitted to having been in contact with the SFA numerous times about the matter since monday night, have they not closed off the SFA (ultimate governing body) as the one who would hear any appeal?
Regarding SSB last night
I heard an amazing thing. In the space of a few minutes I heard Hugh Keevins say “new company” and mention Ally McCoist’s “name them” tirade.
What came out of that was that Mr McCoist had received a letter presumably from the SFA. What the letter said was not disclosed. Did I miss this?
Regarding registration errors/cheating
The law (in criminal matters anyway) makes a distinction between actus reus (the physical act) and mens rea (the intention).
Did Brora intend to fail to comply with the registration process? No
Did RFC 2012 intend to fail to comply? Yes
Did Brora seek a benefit? No
Did RFC 2012 seek a benefit? Yes
That’ll be the difference then.
Slightly off topic.
If Celtic had gone under,which team if any,would their support have transferred their allegiances to.Similarly,if/when sevco go belly up………Just askin’ a hypothetical question, like.
To expand on my last tongue in cheek post. Maybe Brora have been accused of cheating rather than a clerical error since they share a word synonymous with such a practice. No doubt due to some extreme rangers hating in the highlands (Tongue in cheek again there).
Highland League Fan says:
March 22, 2014 at 8:35 am
‘…Brora, even after taking legal advice ( the best in Scotland, if their supporters are to be believed) have admitted that the player was unregistered ..’
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I may concede that under what had been everyone’s understanding pre-Bryson, Brora may not have registered Watt. But in the absence of a piece of paper formally asserting that a player’s registration has been revoked, or specific rules explicitly stating that on transfer from one club to another a player’s reg. is automatically revoked, under Bryson, the reg. would remain valid.Once registered, a player remains registered until he ‘is actively de-registered by revocation.
That would fly, for me, and I hope it might fly for Brora. if they decide to challenge what the heck Bryson was all about.
On the possible appeal front, I would imagine that the SFA will not have done anything in response to Brora’s representations except tell them that they have no right of appeal! That, I would suggest, would not remove the possibility that the SFA could hear an appeal, if one were to be allowed.
We’ll wait and see what Brora actually do, and maybe all the relevant bumph will surface.
John Clark, by what you are saying it would appear that never again would a club have to register a player ( if they didn’t want to ) if that player had a some stage of his playing career had been registered with the SFA, even if he had moved clubs numerous times. I suspect then that the SFA would never see any contract between club and player in that case. A dangerous interpretation in my view.
I think for the sake of this blog, at least just to allow us to discuss issues without always coming back to the same point, it would be good if Campbell Ogilvie just resigned his post. Or was fired. That would be reason 153.
Surely the greatest administrator in the world will sort the Brora mess as he cannot leave Bryson to deal with the situation that he created,it is time for CO to come out of the bunker,if he doesnt surely he must resign his post.
An admirable suggestion but I can’t see how that would work. The SFA test would involved the question “Are you a member of a secret organisation?”‘, to which the answer would always be “no” (although that’s probably debatable). The subject may be able to produce a letter from the organisation they definitely weren’t a member of, confirming the same (which may, helpfully, include the date they absolutely didn’t join). If this later proved to be (I believe the current word is) “inaccurate”, then the Bryson rule would apply. I think that’s where we’re up to in this nonsense.
RyanGosling says:
March 22, 2014 at 10:11 am
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I think for the sake of this blog, at least just to allow us to discuss issues without always coming back to the same point, it would be good if Campbell Ogilvie just resigned his post. Or was fired. That would be reason 153.
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Hi, I believe that the reason CO is in place on his £20k retainer is that no-one in their right mind will take the job whilst the current hiatus with Rangers has yet to run its course. Last time it went pear shaped under CW , there were secret talks between the SFA and Rangers 5 months before Admin day. My suspicion is that there will be a similar communication line ( CO was in the Ibrox Directors box las week) going on at the moment , in order for the SFA to get their ducks lined-up with whatever interpretation of rules is required to keep Rangers moving up the leagues if the finance stuff goes pear shaped again.
If it was Italy or Chinese football then everyone would be looking down their noses at the corrupt Johnny Foreigner , here , well you can fill in the blanks.
I return to an oft made point , it seems to me that a simple apology from Rangers to the following in sequence
– their own fans
– the SFA
– the SFA sponsors
– the rest of Scottish football
….. Would go a long way to healing wounds. Unfortunately, the pandering to the WATP mentality prevents this common courtesy and equally allows CO to lord it over us ……….
John Clark says:
March 22, 2014 at 12:48 am
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essexbeancounter says:
March 22, 2014 at 12:29 am
“……I can only but imagine that any BOS executive would have been more than helpful in such a case, particularly where an independent/external investor, in the form of Mr McCann and any related consortia appeared with a proposal to eliminate what BOS was a potential bad debt…”
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With the most humble respect, Essexbc, I refer you to the words of Mr McCann, that sainted man:
“Had the bank co-operated with me when I had earlier deposited £11million with them to show I had the capital, the crisis could have been avoided.”
I think Fergus was actually p.ssed off by the bloody-mindedness of the BoS and thought of them as being entirely unhelpful.
But I’m happy to endorse your view of Messrs White and Kelly and families as being churlishly and childishly out of their depth and obstructive with it. 🙂
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JC…I do not think we really differ in principle, bearing in mind I comment from some distance.
Perhaps if I said “should” instead of “would” my sentiments may come over more accurately.
However, I do concur with the later post from Upthehoops that, notwithstanding their exposure to Celtic FC’s debt, their would have been some satisfaction in many corners of Scottish society had Celtic disappeared…and disappeared they would have certainly.
PS I am not going to “meet with your shoulder”…am I?
EKBHOY
No one wanted the job of President according to Turnbull Hutton. I think that was down to the poisoned chalice nature of the post.
So that was a factor. How CO is carrying out that role is a matter of speculation but as a pathfinder through the rules there can be none better than a pilot who is an experienced navigator.
I expect us to be playing with a square ball the season after next.
Flocculent Apoidea says:
March 22, 2014 at 10:38 am
Any membership of secret organisations must be resigned and anybody found to be disregarding this edict, removed from office immediately.
An admirable suggestion but I can’t see how that would work. The SFA test would involve the question “Are you a member of a secret organisation?
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That would be interesting. A retired former colleague of mine who I was friendly with was a staunch Freemason. He assured me they could not tell lies!
essexbeancounter says:
March 22, 2014 at 11:08 am
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It was, in my opinion, the Edinburgh based establishment that had a problem with Celtic, and would have been happy to be rid of them to clear a path for Rangers forever. Why no-one is ever willing to ask those that are still around why the BOS allowed Rangers to spend what they did while trying to force Celtic out of business for a fraction of it is beyond me. I guess the truth would be too unpalatable to discuss. I would imagine they detest Fergus McCann, who completely wiped the floor with them all.
I think it is time to put a stop to the conspiracy stuff. We’ve given it a couple of days so that people could air their views; and the discussion has degenerated somewhat (I knew we would get to the Masons eventually). Frankly this is not doing us any favours in terms of general credibility.
To paraphrase Greenock Jack, we only have circumstantial evidence to underpin our various theories of institutional bias. That’s why they will always remain theories. The blog works best with facts, and a consensus on the way forward. If we seek a consensus on the past, we wil be here forever, but achieve nothing.
I hope the decision to allow the debate to take place, despite its OT nature, will have convinced many of you of its unproductive nature.
Please let us get back to being TSFM.
RyanGosling says:
March 22, 2014 at 12:46 am
Ecobhoy has called me out here before for not expressing a point well and offering qualified apologies, but all I can say is if we keep going back and forth I’m sure we’ll eventually understand each other.
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I have no recollection of the post you have mentioned but I’m surprised as I don’t tend to comment on any poster’s writing style but more on their content.
If I’m unsure of a point being made I will ask for more info however I don’t regard that as calling anyone out. and I suspect there must be more to the exchange than a mere clarification request 😆
Highland League Fan says:
March 22, 2014 at 9:51 am
‘..John Clark, by what you are saying it would appear that never again would a club have to register a player ( if they didn’t want to ) if that player had a some stage of his playing career had been registered with the SFA, even if he had moved clubs numerous times…’
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Not so much what I am saying,HLfan, as what Bryson’s interpretation might be seen to lead to. That’s why many of us were so extremely puzzled, because his interpretation seemed to make nonsense.
But perhaps better and more informed analysis will be forthcoming in the fullness of time. 🙂
essexbeancounter says:
March 22, 2014 at 11:08 am
‘…..would have been some satisfaction in many corners of Scottish society had Celtic disappeared…’
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There would, of course, have been much shaking of heads at the effect on attendances at other grounds in ‘the absence of competition’ and how difficult it would be for the remaining ‘big’ club ever to mount a challenge in Europe, and how much the Scottish game missed and needed a ‘big two’………I don’t think! 👿
essexbeancounter says:
March 22, 2014 at 11:08 am
‘….JC…I do not think we really differ in principle,..’
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No, we don’t.
I think that it’s quite likely that had Celtic collapsed, there would have been no 5-way agreement with any cowboy horsebreeder who bought the assets cheap and founded a new club. Any such new club would have been treated as a new club, and would have had to go through all the -oops, I nearly said Hoops- all the due processes of seeking admission to membership of a league and the SFA. And would not have been allowed to trade as Celtic, with the European Cup trophy recognised as theirs etc etc….
And the MSM would have loved it, being such tight-collared,stiff-jawed,clenched-buttock defenders and upholders of sporting integrity and the rigid application of rules. 😀
Have changed the registration page to include team supported. The User Profile Page now also includes that field, so if anyone wants to add their team to their profile, that will allow us to have a look at the Partizanometer 🙂
TSFM says:
March 22, 2014 at 12:46 pm
Have changed the registration page to include team supported. The User Profile Page now also includes that field, so if anyone wants to add their team to their profile, that will allow us to have a look at the Partizanometer
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Well if all the posters follow the same route as most of our media pundits, I can see Partick Thistle and St. Mirren competing neck and neck for the lead…..
Madbhoy24941 says:
March 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm
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TSFM says:
March 22, 2014 at 12:46 pm
Well if all the posters follow the same route as most of our media pundits, I can see Partick Thistle and St. Mirren competing neck and neck for the lead…..
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Yes it’s funny how journalists in the main try and hide their team.
Are there any openly Celtic or Rangers supporting churnalists out there.
Looking at my team there is of course Richard Gordon,Michael Grant,Liam McLeod,Jonathon Sutherland etc etc
No taboo about being a Dons supporting media type. I remember Roddy Forsyth nearly having a heart attack when Jim Traynor outed him as a debenture holder.
Dundee United have of course super Jim Spence and there’s Saintees Cosgrove.
Celtics investigative journalists seem to all be internet bampots!
Strange country :sigh:
Madbhoy24941 says:
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🙂
To be fair, it would be a very cynical man who would deny Arthur Montford’s love of Morton, or Malcolm Munro’s obsession with Thistle …
… and there are in fact more closet Celtic fans in the current crop of er, journalists in Scottish Sporting MSM then there are of TRFC. I think it it’s an insult to real followers of some clubs that halfwits who nothing about their clubs claim an allegiance in order to duck criticism from either side of the Green/Blue divide.
It might say a lot about those guys’ fearless commitment to their profession (or rather lack of it), but a whole lot more about the WoS sectarian problem.
Hopefully, the members of this blog, now officially the Éminence Grise of Scottish social media after our wee age poll last week, will be fearless and wear their hearts on their sleeve 🙂
Jack
The silly season brings out the worst in you. Your previous post is in moderation and available for you to edit. Otherwise, count to ten before you post. On second thoughts – make that a couple of thousand.
TSFM, would it be possible for you to accompany me on a night out so that if I start becoming a silly sod you could put me into moderation…
😉
Ohh to know what Jack has written!
causaludendi says
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I don’t have time for nights out 🙂
TSFM says:
March 22, 2014 at 4:38 pm
I don’t have time for nights out 🙂
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…not even if some kind soul put £95k your way by means of an EBT?
Apologies for OT but I love these.
Tonight on Sportsound – Stuart McCall – “..once again, our Achilles heel has come back to bite us.”
TSFM
TU count indicates you have been seen to be heavyhanded and for those who saw my post it is little wonder.
You don’t practise what you preach.
The blog is one-sided and will struggle for the credibility you seek.
I will personally help efforts to expose it for what it is, the truth should out.
Flocculent Apoidea says:
March 22, 2014 at 6:08 pm
Apologies for OT but I love these.
Tonight on Sportsound – Stuart McCall – “..once again, our Achilles heel has come back to bite us.”
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Sounds marginally better than we cant defend corners to save oor a*** and someday we will give a collective heart attack to our support as they watch the last 5mins through their fingers. Thats a bit drawn out but truer.
Greenock Jack says:
March 22, 2014 at 6:30 pm
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The Blog has full credibility…there is no struggle…
Fighting corruption…dishonesty…cheating and unfairness within Scottish Football is one sided…for the GOOD guys….
“I will personally help efforts to expose it for what it is, the truth should out”…
Now that did make me chuckle…what truth?…expose what?…for what it is…eh?….Can the mods let us into the secret?
GJ…at least you have been honest and presented the real reason you contribute…to counter any relevent comment on the Govan club regardless of facts…
Bill1903 says:
Looking at my team there is of course Richard Gordon,Michael Grant,Liam McLeod,Jonathon Sutherland etc etc
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And Charlie Allan … dinna forget Charlie Allan. 😛
Jack – fret ye not. Even if this blog represented a true cross-section of fitba supporters, the majority would be Celtic fans (Rangers fans seem not to want to apply). With the best will, many such fine fellows are defensive of their team, manager and history – naturally enough.
Take TSFM for what it is, which is a natural progression from RTC with a stated wider remit. You know who the majority are, as does everyone in every other fitba forum. Don’t expect the general attitude to be lovely if you have a go at Celtic, and don’t expect much support for pro-Rangers comments.
The fact is that there’s no better place for getting the latest on many of the biggest Scottish fitba scandals.
Angus1983 says:
March 22, 2014 at 8:10 pm
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Bill1903 says:
Looking at my team there is of course Richard Gordon,Michael Grant,Liam McLeod,Jonathon Sutherland etc etc
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And Charlie Allan … dinna forget Charlie Allan.
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When I knew Charlie back in the day I’m sure he was a Celtic fan 🙄
Now he’s a pretend journalist he pretends to support the dons.
TSFM says:
March 22, 2014 at 2:13 pm
‘….the members of this blog, now officially the Éminence Grise of Scottish social media after our wee age poll last week, ..’
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And may I call upon the ’eminences grises’ of this blog to join with me in mild censure of Stewart and Tam for their (it seemed to me) ageist going-over of Colin frae Aberdeen?
I think the producer must have had a wee word in their ears because they kind of drew back from disrepectful mockery towards the end of the show.
I think they sometimes forget that not every caller is equipped for a rough, tough comedic approach.Or am I too,too sensitive altogether?
Flocculent Apoidea says:
March 22, 2014 at 6:08 pm ianagain says:
‘… “..once again, our Achilles heel has come back to bite us.”’
ianagain says:
March 22, 2014 at 7:19 pm
‘.Sounds marginally better than ..’
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Billy Dodds has (recently?) taken to using the phrase ‘ ..he opens up his legs…’ . I wait eagerly for some Colemanballs-like revelation! Dodds cannot be too young to remember that athletics commentary? Was it that long ago?
I like the idea of stating which team you support a bit like the referees should.
I remember my brother telling me of a referee who had his request to have his final game a the club of his choice before he retired. On the radio the pundits as usual mention that they thought he was a ‘stand up guy’. On the panel was a former refereeing colleague who said that he never once witnessed any bias towards a specific team but when officiating at a certain stadium he used to bring his own towel because he would not dry himself with the towel supplied because it had that teams club crest. My brother was incredulous that this man was supposed to be neutral but could not bring himself to dry himself with a towel from a specific club because it had their club crest on it.
Could this individual be trusted to be professional while also being so petty at the same time. I leave that to you dear reader.
As an aside it is nice to see that season ticket renewal time must be fast approaching when Macheda is linked with Celtic AND, believe it or not, ‘The Rangers’. Yes the club, sorry company, that has had to have an emergency cash injection is considering this player. Macheda will easily be on £25K at least and even if he was diagnosed with ‘Rangersitis’ I don’t think he would be willing to take a 70% pay cut to play in the Scottish second division.
Meanwhile Neil Lennon is saying he hopes to sign FIVE players. I would be extremely surprised if Celtic sign five players. Samaras is a gimme to leave and will free up cash. Foster may leave if a big enough offer comes in and the same with Van Dyke but would that mean Celtic have to sign EIGHT players or does it mean that it would still be five?
I know what the fans would like the answer to be but somehow I don’t think the board will see it that way.
Scottish football is all about balancing the books now and I was alarmed watching the Kilmarnock game last week that the co-commentator stated that it was great that they had re-structured their debt and that hopefully they would be able to go out and spend money in the summer.
That is the pundit mindset; ‘Spend, spend, spend even if you don’t have it’.
What is the point of Kilmarnock shedding their debt only to immediately ramp it back up again.
Utter madness.
John Clark says:
March 22, 2014 at 8:41 pm
And may I call upon the ‘eminences grises’ of this blog to join with me in mild censure of Stewart and Tam for their (it seemed to me) ageist going-over of Colin frae Aberdeen?
I think the producer must have had a wee word in their ears because they kind of drew back from disrepectful mockery towards the end of the show.
I think they sometimes forget that not every caller is equipped for a rough, tough comedic approach.Or am I too,too sensitive altogether?
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Absolutely spot on JC
The guy had a valid point that experienced Vernon isn’t getting a game when 3 young lads are. I’ve been wondering the exact same thing myself!
I’m not sure that Tam can understand anyone north of Airdrie anyway as he is so Lanarkshire centric 😡
Disappointed in them really but generally I’m a fan of the show and Stuart in particular.
Bill1903 says:
March 22, 2014 at 8:34 pm
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Angus1983 says:
March 22, 2014 at 8:10 pm
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Bill1903 says:
Looking at my team there is of course Richard Gordon,Michael Grant,Liam McLeod,Jonathon Sutherland etc etc
——
And Charlie Allan … dinna forget Charlie Allan.
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When I knew Charlie back in the day I’m sure he was a Celtic fan 🙄
Now he’s a pretend journalist he pretends to support the dons.
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Nae sure if he was a Celtic fan. He was involved with the Moorings Bar Sunday league team. They played in green and white hoops and Charlie seemed to have one of their tops welded on at all times…
CliffHanger says:
March 22, 2014 at
Nae sure if he was a Celtic fan. He was involved with the Moorings Bar Sunday league team. They played in green and white hoops and Charlie seemed to have one of their tops welded on at all times…
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Aye I played against them many a time back in the day.
That’s where I was getting his Celtic connection 😆
Charlie used to do the write ups in the paper and he hasn’t improved much since
Th