Scottish Football: An Honest Game, Honestly Governed?

ByTrisidium

Scottish Football: An Honest Game, Honestly Governed?

A Guest Blog by Auldheid for TSFM

Honesty requires both transparency and accountability. In pursuit of honest, transparent and accountable governance of Scottish football, and only that objective, the following letter, with attachments, has been sent to SPFL lawyers, CEO and SPFL Board Members.

An honest game free from deception is what football supporters of all clubs want. It is the action the letter and attachments prompt that will tell us if there is any intention of providing it.

It is a response on behalf of readers here on TSFM, but the sentiment which underpins it is almost universally held amongst fans of all clubs.  Importantly it is a response directly to all clubs, especially those with a SPFL Board member, that will make the clubs and the football authorities aware just how seriously supporters take the restoration of trust in an honest game, honestly governed.

The annexes to the letter contain information which may be published at a later date. We thought it appropriate to first await any response from any of the recipients.

Please also draw this to the attention of friends who are not internet using supporters and love their football and their club.

Auldheid

__________________________________________________________________

Harper MacLeod
The Ca’d’oro
45 Gordon Street
Glasgow
G1 3PE
19 Feb 2014
Copy sent to SPFL CEO and Board Members *
Dear Mr McKenzie
We the contributors to The Scottish Football Monitoring web site write to you in your capacity as the legal adviser employed by Harper MacLeod to assist the Scottish Premier League (now the Scottish Professional Football League) to gather evidence and investigate the matter of incorrect player registrations involving concealed side letters and employee benefit trusts as defined in the eventual Lord Nimmo Smith Commission.
We note from the then SPL announcement that set up an enquiry that the initial date range to be covered was from the inception of the SPL in July 1998, but that was changed to 23 November 2000 because, according to our understanding, that is the date of the first side letter supplied by Rangers Administrators Duff and Phelps. It is also our understanding that the SPL asked for all documentation relating to side letters as well as the letters themselves.
It is a matter of public record that Rangers Administrators failed to supply the SPL all relevant documentation. Indeed the seriousness of not complying with SPL requests was the subject of an admonition of Rangers/Duff and Phelps from Lord Nimmo Smith under Issue 4 of his Commission.
Quite how serious that failure to comply or concealment was in terms of misleading the Commission and so Lord Nimmo Smith can now be assessed from the information contained at Annexes 1 to 10 attached.
We think that as legal advisers to the SPL (now the SPFL) you have a responsibility to make them aware that their Commission was misled by the concealment of documents starting on 3 September 1999, and signed by current SFA President Campbell Ogilvie, whose silence on the ebt matters referred to in the attached annexes* is questionable at the very least.
This letter but not attachments is being posted on The Scottish Football Monitor web site as this is matter for all of Scottish football and support for the issue being pursued to establish the truth can be gauged by responses from supporters from all Scottish clubs once the letter has been published there.
A copy of this letter with Annexes has also been sent to the SPFL CEO and members of the SPFL Board.
Acknowledgement of receipt and reply can be sent by e mail to:
(Address supplied)
Yours in sport

On behalf of The Scottish Football Monitor contributors and readers. http://www.tsfm.org.uk/

Addressees copied in
Neil Doncaster CEO
The Scottish Professional Football League
Hampden Park
Glasgow G42 9DE

Eric Riley (Celtic),
The Celtic Football Club
Celtic Park
Glasgow G40 3RE

Stephen Thompson (Dundee United),
Tannadice Park,
Tannadice Street,
Dundee, DD3 7JW

Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen);
Aberdeen Football Club plc
Pittodrie Stadium
Pittodrie Street
Aberdeen AB24 5QH

Les Gray (Hamilton),
Hamilton Academical FC
New Douglas Park
Hamilton
ML3 0FT

Mike Mulraney (Alloa)
Alloa Athletic FC
Clackmannan Road
Recreation Park
Alloa FK10 1RY

Bill Darroch (Stenhousemuir).
Stenhousemuir F.C.
Ochilview Park
Gladstone Road
Stenhousemuir
Falkirk
FK5 4QL

About the author

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,234 Comments so far

justshateredPosted on7:58 pm - Mar 29, 2014


Was Honved the team that Alan Rough played twice in European football something like 17 years apart?
He played them with Partick Thistle in the early seventies and also played them with Celtic during his short spell with them.

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ianagainPosted on9:03 pm - Mar 29, 2014


Auldheid

Definitely from the 5 way.

Did we ever employ para 16 to find out if it got to Europe?

Might be interesting if it was forwarded to Lausanne in advance of COs bid at FiFa

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JagsmanPosted on9:04 pm - Mar 29, 2014


JUSTSHATTERED: yes, the same. Unfortunately, we couldn’t beat them though…

On the Maryhill Magyars topic, it should also be pointed out that the “slightly” joking comparison to the great Hungarians was also made because Thistle were a pretty decent outfit back then (I say that according to my Dad and the history books rather than personal experience). We reached the League Cup final three times and lost the lot, finished 3rd once and were top half of the table for the vast majority of the 50’s, supplying Scotland internationalists like Johnny McKenzie, Andy Kerr, Tommy Ewing and Jimmy Davidson.

In fact, looking back at those times, East Fife were 3rd twice as well as beating us in the League Cup! Hibs won the League twice, while Aberdeen, Celtic and Hearts also won League titles. The rest of them were won by Charles Green.

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ianagainPosted on9:13 pm - Mar 29, 2014


The rest of them were won by Charles Green

In his Green flash sannies.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:21 pm - Mar 29, 2014


neepheid says:
March 28, 2014 at 10:53 pm
19 5 Rate This

[]
The 15,000 ST figure is the number currently being gamed out by clever folk at RIFC.
They are building a budget around this being the absolute lowest figure they could pull in regardless of the product on the pitch.

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Para HandyPosted on10:07 pm - Mar 29, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
March 29, 2014 at 9:21 pm
1 0 Rate This

neepheid says:
March 28, 2014 at 10:53 pm
19 5 Rate This

[]
The 15,000 ST figure is the number currently being gamed out by clever folk at RIFC.
They are building a budget around this being the absolute lowest figure they could pull in regardless of the product on the pitch.
——————————–
An interesting approach and one that makes some sense. One of the greatest challenges for a club is to forecast crowd numbers. In my experience, Boards were all overly optimistic and only brought to task by insolvency or a realisation that the family heirlooms were at risk.

Unfortunately for a Club with the overheads of Ibrox and Murray Park (leaving aside the expectations of hover pitches, etc.), 15000 fans would perhaps support a similar playing budget to say, Dundee Utd, Hibs, Hearts and possibly less than Aberdeen’s?

Also, having just checked the SPFL averages for the season, I am astounded and impressed that Thistle are sixth!

Perhaps the kids go free initiative is paying off or, as I remember from the 70s when a Club (IL) was not having a great few years, disaffected Rangers fans have decided to support a Club with a longer history than Sevco?

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:12 pm - Mar 29, 2014


Para Handy says:
March 29, 2014 at 10:07 pm
Laxey Partners are professionals.
Their MBA intern programme is large and highly sought after.
They’re gaming these figures now.
The SMSM have utterly underestimated LP and the role they will play in this saga in the coming period.

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Danish PastryPosted on10:13 pm - Mar 29, 2014


HirsutePursuit says:
March 29, 2014 at 7:57 pm
4 0 Rate This

————–

Thanks for that.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:20 pm - Mar 29, 2014


Para Handy says:
March 28, 2014 at 9:55 pm
Apropos sources:
I have been informed (yes by a source) that there was a dignified conclave last night to discuss the interims.
Apparently there were gasps from the assembled throng when one of their own (a chap valued for his knowledge on matters financial) stated the horrible truth that there was a high degree of veracity in my reportage and this could not be denied since the interims had been published.
The poor dears…

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upthehoopsPosted on10:25 pm - Mar 29, 2014


Matty Roth says:
March 29, 2014 at 11:56 am
=========================
Cheers Matty. I was at the Celtic v Ross County game today. RC gave a really good account of themselves. Looking round the stadium I did fleetingly wonder how it would look half red, half tangerine. Just a thought!

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Billy BoycePosted on11:56 pm - Mar 29, 2014


I was hoping that someone would have commented earlier on the caller who rang the ‘Off The Ball’ programme on Radio Scotland this evening – or even posted a link to the podcast.

Mark from Hamilton wished to speak to Keith Jackson about his reporting of the latest happenings down Ibrox way. He had hardly started before Jackson tried to shout him down. I rather suspect Cosgrove got Jackson to shut up and let Mark have his say. The caller was most articulate and made his point of view in a simple, telling manner. He accused Jackson of soft pedalling on his recent interview with Dave King, and took him to task for stating as fact that King had lost £20m in Rangers first time round. Jackson replied that before he went into print he had verified that King had lost all his money. The caller argued that this was not necessarily the case. Cosgrove and Cowan must have been quietly enjoying Jackson’s discomfort as Stuart eventually interjected to say that the programme was running out of time and so he asked Mark if he would please come on the show next Saturday and continue the ‘discussion’.

It was so refreshing to hear a member of the public being given the opportunity to make this BBC pundit squirm and to be able to pour scorn on Jackson’s Daily Record scribblings. It’s not going to stop Jackson from being a cheerleader for King, but he will have to be very circumspect in future when he extols the virtues of the Messiah in waiting, particularly if he is to appear on BBC phone-ins afterwards.

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hamemadesoupPosted on11:56 pm - Mar 29, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
March 29, 2014 at 10:20 pm
18 2 Rate This

Para Handy says:
March 28, 2014 at 9:55 pm
Apropos sources:
I have been informed (yes by a source) that there was a dignified conclave last night to discuss the interims.
Apparently there were gasps from the assembled throng when one of their own (a chap valued for his knowledge on matters financial) stated the horrible truth that there was a high degree of veracity in my reportage and this could not be denied since the interims had been published.
The poor dears…
————————————
Very interesting Phil . Is dignity returning to Govan on a permanent basis or was the conclave an isolated incident ? Is the May bank holiday a good day to appoint an administrator ?

Keep up the good work Phil . Thanks :mrgreen:

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on12:35 am - Mar 30, 2014


hamemadesoup says:
March 29, 2014 at 11:56 pm
I believe the dignity TUPEd over…..
Regarding Administration:
The preparatory work was completed for a quick clean Administration last month (as per my recent piece).
Moreover the work was completed to a tight deadline under circumstances of some urgency.
People close to the action are baffled that the Admin button has not been pressed.
The DK intervention DID blind side them.
Their cost base is crippling and they will continue to be in hand-to-mouth crisis mode until they slash those costs.
It is all very very strange.
However I am satisfied that the picture I have painted of their internal goings on has been essentially accurate.

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FisianiPosted on3:04 am - Mar 30, 2014


Follow the money. The reason the Admin button has not been pushed this week is that there are still a few more pounds to be siphoned off to Laxey et al. Sure the petrol light has been on for ages but the car is still running meaning that there is a still some petrol in the tank. It will all come to grinding halt long before the petrol station of season tickets 2014-15. Laxey and the spivs have private jets and castles in France to head off to. Are we nearly there yet? Yes we are.

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DonegaltimPosted on4:03 am - Mar 30, 2014


It came from my old friend, the legendary writer Malcolm Munro, variously of the Express, Evening Citizen and Evening Times. Malky was a great fan of the 1954 Hungarian side who should have won the World Cup but got stage-fright in the final against the hosts (whom they had beaten 6-1 in the group stages).

A Thistle fan, Malky adopted the alliterative epithet as a conflation of his two favourite teams
———————————————————————

Tsfm, stories like this I find wonderful. A friend of my Da’s could recall games from way back and his detail was phenomenal. I mean twenty, thirty years previous. Being a young boy on the supporters bus listening to the more experienced guys querying who scored the third goal against Thistle and one or two getting chided by my Da’s mate of not only who scored but describing the event in great detail. This admiration of this skill has stayed with me and is immeasurable. I could get off the bus, go into the pub and be asked who scored and I honestly couldn’t recall. It didn’t matter to me as long as we won.

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hamemadesoupPosted on5:04 am - Mar 30, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
March 30, 2014 at 12:35 am
11 0 Rate This
However I am satisfied that the picture I have painted of their internal goings on has been essentially accurate.
———————————–
Not only am I satisfied that your painting is accurate , I reckon it’s a Picasso in a field of toilet cubicle graffiti . The SMSM must cower when you flex your keyboard .

Craig Whyte is in possession of ”Ra deeds” . Can you confirm or deny ?

Thanks again :mrgreen:

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upthehoopsPosted on8:03 am - Mar 30, 2014


Billy Boyce says:
March 29, 2014 at 11:56 pm
=====================
In my opinion at one time a classless, sensationalist journalist like Jackson would not have been entertained by the BBC. Interestingly his last regular run was when he was pushing a case for Paul Murray and his gang to gain control. Now it seems he is back to do the same thing for Dave King. While journalists will all support one team or another, it should be a concern to licence fee payers that the BBC are willing to hand a microphone to a Rangers fan whose only aim is to promote the case of the next sugar daddy to rabble rouse about putting Celtic in their place. Make no mistake, writers like Jackson (and there are plenty of them) have no desire at all to see any real ‘competition’ in the top league. All they want is a league which Rangers win more often than not. They do not care how that success is financed and clearly they do not care a jot about the fit and proper status of who is financing it. We now appear to be in a position where the SFA have no choice but to admit Dave King to the Ibrox boardroom should the situation arise, even if they are of a mind not to. This was a point made by the more respectable Hugh McDonald the other day when he referred to the outcry there would be if the SFA blocked a ‘saviour’ from getting control. Mind you, I do not believe for a minute the SFA would be of a mind to try and block King. They may publicly grandstand for a while but it’s a done deal at the end of the day. In this country there simply can’t be any other outcome. Anyone who thinks differently should consider just how far the SFA have already bent over backwards. Allowing entry to a man with over 40 convictions for tax evasion, who was was labelled a shameless liar in court, would not really be that incredible a scenario given all that’s happened.

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Danish PastryPosted on8:10 am - Mar 30, 2014


Billy Boyce says:
March 29, 2014 at 11:56 pm
21 0 Rate This

I was hoping that someone would have commented earlier on the caller who rang the ‘Off The Ball’ programme on Radio Scotland this evening …
———-

I heard that last might via the play-again function. Good call too. Personally puzzled by the lost £20m thing. I read for and against King losing that. But the call was excellent, as you say, in that it allowed a caller to challenge KJ.

Also of interest, though, was Stuart Cosgrove putting a financial cat among the Celtic pigeons by suggesting a fairer distribution of the CL cash that the Scottish champions earn on the back of being — Scottish champions.

This came during the last 10min of the first hour of the early show and you could hear the audible gasps from both studio guests 🙂

The central point being: money is determining almost everything in football and that the inequitable distribution of prize money is creating elite teams at national and European level, who ironically, decry the lack of competition!

The point made was for a more equitable distribution of the UEFA prize money (not the TV money or match revenues) among the league clubs.

Frank McAvennie pointed out that there was a CL pool that was distributed and suggested that Stuart’s suggestion amounted to punishing Celtic for being successful.

At present, though, as far as I can see, it’s the ‘league shoulders’ that national champions stand on to reach the CL that need strengthening. And so a fair point from Stuart and Tam, although possibly too socialist for some.

No doubt that UEFA are responsible for this pandering to the elite. Ironically, though, the CL elite is now divided into two or three elites within the elite, with the mega rich spending vulgar sums of money, and creaming off the uneven rewards, year after year.

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peterjungPosted on9:48 am - Mar 30, 2014


The Off The Ball later show is on iplayer but it seems a little difficult to find…. Here is the link if anyone is having trouble finding it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03zd8vz

The call from Mark from Hamilton starts at 52:30.

Jackson makes a really lame attempt to defend the 20 million into Rangers rubbish…if that response and “evidence” (well he doesn’t actually offer any evidence beyond “his understanding” and the denials of the two Daves…..) is the best the award winning journalist has on this particular subject then I am more convinced than ever that Dave King did indeed get most of his 20 million back.

Mark from Hamilton deftly swats Jackson’s lame response with barely even the merest hint of effort… and then goes on to make a number of points well known to everyone on here. Jackson wisely offers no response and Stuart Cosgrove rides to the rescue.

This call just shows to me just how paper thin the whole grotesque invention we have endured over the last two years is. If just one caller with a reasonable knowledge of the facts can cut through like Mark did then it shows our “journalists” up for just what they must be.

I really hope that Stuart is genuine in his request for Mark to call in again next week…..I really hope he does.

Mark – I suspect you may peruse these pages from time to time…so if you reading, great call and please do call in again!

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TaysiderPosted on10:00 am - Mar 30, 2014


justshatered says:
March 29, 2014 at 1:59 pm

First of all great post and it raised interesting questions.
The onus however is not just on Celtic to either ‘dumbing down’ their quality/competitiveness it should also surely be about the other teams bringing through exciting teams to, not only challenge, but entice their own support back to their clubs. If Aberdeen, Dundee United, Motherwell, St Johnstone, and Hibs can develop there squads that will in turn drive up standards.
———————
Thanks Justshatered. The problem is that however much these teams may (and are) trying to bring through exciting teams the financial gulf is just too great. I could suggest that if Celtic did the same they should be able to match Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich but realistically I know that just as the gap in the Scottish Premiership is too wide so is the gap in the Champions League. Reflecting on the former recently Derek McInnes pointed out that his playing budget is equal to two of Celtic’s top players.

This is part of a wider much discussed problem in club football, the distorting influence of massive amounts of tv money to create a very non level playing field. In the past provincial Scottish clubs have expressed disappointment at the level of Celtic and Rangers tops seen worn by youngsters in Inverness, Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth etc but could the future see those replaced by Manchester City, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona etc tops in Glasgow as well as every other city and town?

Stuart Cosgrove’s comment yesterday ((Danish Pastry’s post above) may have caused some to gasp but the situation was created by the relatively huge disparity between what the Champions League gives to the clubs that progress in the competition and the residual funds provided to the national leagues those clubs play in. If at the outset the set up had been for a far higher proportion of CL money going to the Leagues rather than the clubs I suspect this would have been broadly accepted, but now we have an established situation where those already competing will get stronger and stronger leading to fewer elite clubs from fewer elite countries while the rest look enviously on. Dave King’s talk of £50m is all about wanting Rangers to take Celtic’s place on the CL gravy train. That’s the sort of mindset the CL pot allocation encourages, get the money and dominate all else. But in a wider context Scottish League football risks being seen as ever more secondary, even in Scotland with the passion for the game here.

I wrote yesterday that we need a positive vision. Here’s a suggestion developing on Stuart Cosgrove’s comment. Why not set up an arrangement whereby a proportion of the CL money for any Scottish participant getting through to the group stages was paid into a new Trust whose aim was to promote the development of young Scottish football talent? Money from the Trust (also funded by the SFA, SG?) would be made available to all SPFL clubs with an annual turnover of less than say ? £15m on the basis that for every £1 that club spends on youth development the Trust will contribute an additional say ? 25 – 50p.

This would benefit not only in encouraging more competition in the SPFL but also more clubs to reach out and do more work with the next generation of Scottish supporters, getting more kids to think in terms of football meaning support / feeling connected with Scottish clubs rather than the remote international mega rich teams. It would improve the chances of seeing more good young Scottish talent coming through to the benefit of both our League teams and national side. It would also help encourage more kids to get fitter with an added benefit for the whole country.

It may not be perfect but the aim is a positive step forward for Scottish Football which surely would be a good thing?

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ecobhoyPosted on10:00 am - Mar 30, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
March 29, 2014 at 10:12 pm
Para Handy says:
March 29, 2014 at 10:07 pm

Laxey Partners are professionals.
Their MBA intern programme is large and highly sought after.
They’re gaming these figures now.
The SMSM have utterly underestimated LP and the role they will play in this saga in the coming period.
—————————————————————-
I would be disappointed if the SMSM had ‘utterly underestimated’ LP and I could perhaps semi-justify their error by thinking: ‘Well we all make mistakes’.

However the SMSM hasn’t just made a mistake – As a entity it’s simply incapable of understanding how skilled professionals like LP go about their business and remain strictly within the law. Back in the day the likes of The Herald and Scotsman used to have well-staffed business departments with excellent staff who knew the markets and could dissect what lay behind a set of accounts at a glance.

They also had that all-important ‘edge’ in their contacts who could explain the inside track of what was happening behind the public veil.

These days have long gone and I wonder if there is even one financial journo – who actually merits the title – is left at eitrher paper. Oh there will be hapless souls with titles like ‘Business Reporter’ whose main gift is being able to cut & paste PR junk and not think for a moment what the real story might actually be. Even if they did they don’t have the knowledge or ability to ‘find’ it and have no contacts to actually ferret out the real facts to stand it up.

All the journos have is our tame, talking-head financial experts who appear on TV with great regularity spouting pash and who are never ever questioned on why they don’t actually have a clue and always get it wrong and never ever pose the difficult questions that might expose the truth.

I have even been told from a good source that a public library is writing articles for one of our papers of ‘record’. I have to say if it weren’t for the provenance of the source I would have laughed that suggestion off the park, But in the current media climate I am left too frightened to check it out as it would depress me beyond belief if it were to be true which I fear it is.

As well as the culpability of the SMSM we also have the role of the SFA to consider. They are supposed to have professionals working for it although I wouldn’t stretch that term to include those in charge.

Eventually it truly will all come out in the wash and that’s why we must bear witness to the SFA failings and partiality and remember just how rotten the governing body of our beloved game is at its core – it has to be cut-out and dumped in landfill or possibly – in a more eco-friendly environment 🙄 – converted into something useful like bio-fuel.

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John ClarkPosted on10:01 am - Mar 30, 2014


Danish Pastry says:
March 30, 2014 at 8:10 am
‘…..And so a fair point from Stuart and Tam, although possibly too socialist for some. ‘
—————-
Not so much ‘too socialist’, I would say, DP, as a little bit misdirected (and perhaps badly-timed). Stuart’s target ought not to have been Celtic -with his irrelevant nonsense about them being a supposed charitable institution [ they’ve to give money away while other clubs maximise their profits?]- but the deals made with the TV companies over broadcasting rights and revenues.
It is a simple fact that there can be no champions, unless there is a competition. And no competition unless there are teams to participate in the competition, and not just the teams that end up in the later stages .
UEFA has begun to realise this, I think, in its broader view of Fair Play,which includes trying to put a brake on the improvident, reckless and/or and tax-dodging expenditure of clubs, to try to level up the playing field in terms of transfer and salary expenditure.
Quite what can be done about oil-rich playboy middle eastern potentates ,or South African based Castlemilk-reared convicted tax-evading wide-boys, seeking to use clubs as personal toys is maybe debatable, but a whole lot more could be done to squeeze the TV toothpaste tube a little more equitably over the football toothbrush.

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John ClarkPosted on10:10 am - Mar 30, 2014


ecobhoy says:
March 30, 2014 at 10:00 am
‘…… I wonder if there is even one financial journo – who actually merits the title – is left at either paper…’
———————–
Or any at BBC Radio Scotland with the guts to pursue a cracking business story regardless of which business. Douglas Fraser seems to be made of the same stuff as the ‘football journalists’, merely parroting what he his handed in press statements.

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BrendaPosted on10:24 am - Mar 30, 2014


Peterjung @ 9.48am

Just listened to the podcast 😉 KJ was well ‘clamped’ but did Stuart and Tam simply change the subject and not mention the callers points ( and very good points they were too) simply to save his (KJ”s) blushes or was someone in their ear from above ‘guiding’ them away from the truth 😉 just in case anyone got upset 😉

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John ClarkPosted on10:24 am - Mar 30, 2014


peterjung says:
March 30, 2014 at 9:48 am
‘…Jackson makes a really lame attempt to defend the 20 million..’
————–
You’re dead right,peterjung.
It was abundantly clear to me that Jackson had no knowledge of his own, had done no personal research, and ,as ever, was merely acting as a second-hand, failed hack whose principal interest lies ( ha!) in the self-protecting parroting of whatever rubbish he picks up or is handed.
I suspect that even a Lesley Riddoch could rip him apart in an interview!

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FIFAPosted on10:30 am - Mar 30, 2014


There where details on one of the blogs quite a while back that a payment of circa £18.4million had been paid to Dave King from an account related to David Murray,one could only guess that if you add the laundry charges this would come out at 20m GBP .probably gibberish ,who would charge that sort of money in a laundry.

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John ClarkPosted on10:32 am - Mar 30, 2014


Brenda says:
March 30, 2014 at 10:24 am
‘….or was someone in their ear from above ‘guiding’ them away from the truth 😉 just in case anyone got upset :wink:’
———–
Brenda, as if! 🙄 This is the independent BBC you’re talking about! (So non-independent that it wheels in Anglo-based Jim Naughtie to ‘oversee’ Radio Scotland’s coverage of the Referendum-but that’s another matter for another forum)

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BrendaPosted on10:39 am - Mar 30, 2014


John Clark 😀 I’m moving onto the naughty step as we speak
😛

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Danish PastryPosted on10:58 am - Mar 30, 2014


John Clark says:
March 30, 2014 at 10:01 am
1 0 Rate This

Danish Pastry says:
March 30, 2014 at 8:10 am
‘…..And so a fair point from Stuart and Tam, although possibly too socialist for some. ‘
—————-

Not so much ‘too socialist’, I would say, DP, as a little bit misdirected (and perhaps badly-timed). Stuart’s target ought not to have been Celtic -with his irrelevant nonsense about them being a supposed charitable institution [ they’ve to give money away while other clubs maximise their profits?]- but the deals made with the TV companies over broadcasting rights and revenues …
———–

It’s not the type of comment you would have heard in the past when the Scottish media’s once-favourite team were celebrating their league triumph, so perhaps, although badly timed, an indication of a changed climate. It’s probably also because Celtic as a club and as a fan group have taken the high moral ground. Having the Scottish champions do that is one of the best things that’s happened in recent years, imo, but it also leaves them open to more ‘moral scrutiny’.

I sensed Stuart C. was irked by the recent ‘lack of domestic competition’ comments, especially since the top teams have set up the Scottish elite which has crushed much of the traditional competition.

I didn’t hear him mention Celtic as supposed to be a charitable institution, or speak ill of them, but he did say something about a team that wants competition, a fair league and that doesn’t want corruption but doesn’t want to share the CL money more equitably to help create a fairer league. It was a radical suggestion, and the two guests response was “Nonsense!” 😀

Like you, I believe the fault lies with the distribution model linked to TV deals and UEFA revenue. This inequity starts from the top down, and it is difficult to change it from the bottom up.

I was interested to hear that Tam Cowan interjected ‘What’s yer Denmark equation?’ 🙂

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TaysiderPosted on11:01 am - Mar 30, 2014


My previous post prompts a question: From a Celtic perspective what would be the benefits?

Well, a league that is more competitive with more young Scottish talent coming through would be a more attractive proposition for everyone and that must surely include Celtic supporters? So more supporters would be attracted to Celtic Park. A more entertaining league will lead to more interest from commercial sponsors and better bids from TV companies for league coverage. A more competitive league with better quality players will, all other things being equal, also give Scottish teams playing in Europe better preparation for that challenge.

Simply put it boils down to a simple question…. what do you want? If Peter Lawwell reflected a wider held sentiment in saying more competition was needed, what does that mean and how do you get there?

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scapaflowPosted on11:03 am - Mar 30, 2014


John Clark says:
March 30, 2014 at 10:32 am

Underestimating Blossom is a fatal mistake. :mrgreen:

Interesting piece by Kevin MacKenna on Scottish Media

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/30/more-power-glasgow-online-journalists-wings-over-scotland-bella-caledonia

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Danish PastryPosted on11:06 am - Mar 30, 2014


Taysider says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:01 am
1 0 Rate This

My previous post prompts a question: From a Celtic perspective what would be the benefits?

Well, a league that was more competitive with more young Scottish talent coming through is a more attractive proposition for everyone and that must surely include Celtic supporters? So more supporters would be attracted to Celtic Park. A more entertaining league will lead to more interest from commercial sponsors and better bids from TV companies for league coverage. A more competitive league with better quality players will, all other things being equal, also give Scottish teams playing in Europe better preparation for that challenge.

Simply put it boils down to a simple question…. what do you want? If Peter Lawwell reflected a wider held sentiment in saying more competition was needed, what does that mean and how do you get there?
———–

Or will we just keep hearing the stories about moving to England and/or seeking to play in leagues outwith Scotland?

PS Good constructive posts @Taysider.

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neepheidPosted on11:25 am - Mar 30, 2014


I hope this hasn’t been posted before. A statement from Vanguard Bears, staunch defenders of the status quo, whatever that may be on any given day.

======================================

It is with utter disbelief that once again our Club and it’s support have been dragged into a series of incidents which has resulted in Vanguard Bears deciding to release a statement to outline where we stand with this RFFF mess.

The recent legal action carried out by Sandy Easdale against Craig Houston is well documented, what has enraged the vast majority of donators to the RFFF is that certain factions, for reasons only they can explain, saw fit to first release their intentions on Mark Dingwall’s FollowFollow forum, a forum which any supporter of any club can join and have a say, to put to a vote for acceptance of monies being taken from said fund to shore up Craig Houston’s Legal Defence against Sandy Easdale, should this have made the courts.

This action went against the vast majority of donators wishes, despite certain parties assuring everyone they spoke for the majority of the support.

The RFFF was set up to fight our Club’s corner against our detractors out there, of which there are many, sadly there are just as many from within the ranks of our support these days who are equally as damaging. Many put their hard earned cash into this fund in good faith, sadly thanks to certain individuals with nothing more than self-promotion and mischief on their minds have sought to put this at risk. The anger among the many donators has resonated around the globe, and no one can blame them for their anger thanks to this latest stunt.

The seven committee members who voted to accept this should now find their positions in the RFFF untenable. If they had any dignity and feelings for the way in which their latest stunt has left the support enraged and suitably angered, they would resign with immediate effect. Knowing the background of some of them and their past antics, this would seem highly unlikely. It will now be down to the majority of enraged supporters who donated to the RFFF to demand their resignation, and with this in mind a decision must also be taken regards the next move to protect this money falling into the direction of self-promoters, with their own not-so-hidden agendas, to use as they see fit.

It should be noted that the VB representative on this committee voted totally against any funds being utilised for anyone’s legal defence funds against Sandy Easdale. We also vow to ensure that this cash will never fall into the hands of any self-appointed fans group leaders or hastily nailed together ‘new age’ fans groups either.

We note also that Mark Dingwall in a recently released post on his own forum is once again imploring the support not to renew their season tickets for next season. We find this utterly astonishing that somone who relies on handouts from other supporters to attend matches – whenever he feels like turning up – should ask of many who hold season tickets, and have done so throughout their lives, to give up theirs so he can further destabilise our club and cause further harm to pursue his own and others agendas.

VB once again will urge all of its members and beyond to ignore the rants of this troublemaker and self-promoter and to get fully behind the club in its time of need. Dingwall along with Chris Graham and other self-appointed and opinionated ‘fans’ speak only for a handful of rabble rousers and charlatans, we are sure the decent and vast majority of the Rangers support will see through their desperation to disrupt and destabilise our club and renew their season tickets when the time comes.

This group of Charlatans will NEVER speak for the vast majority of our support, make no mistake about this.

The Rangers Board now must act firmly and address those that would seek to harm both our Club’s finances and reputation immediately, until that large boil is lanced and removed, the uncertainty and divisions will remain.
====================================

I don’t see kiss and make up time coming any time soon. They really don’t like each other, do they?

If the bears had shown anything like the unity of purpose shown by the Hearts fans, they could have had a largely fan owned club by now, and Green would still be in Yorkshire, minus a French castle and a load of thoroughbred horses. Much better to wait for a dignified brogue-shod messiah to turn up with a load of cash, including mandatory warchest for Ally to squander. It’s actually quite pathetic.

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the taxman comethPosted on11:26 am - Mar 30, 2014


how quickly after a SC semi gubbing will the admin button be pushed?

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ecobhoyPosted on11:27 am - Mar 30, 2014


Taysider says:
March 30, 2014 at 10:00 am
justshatered says:
March 29, 2014 at 1:59 pm

re: distribution of CL money

I think a major problem in what has been suggested so far is a failure to address the situation the money disbursed from the CL depends on a team performance – particulalrly if you only have one team in the competition.

So if a sole Scottish club fails to qualify and make the group stages there won’t be a lot of cash available as the relative costs to a club at that stage of the competition is high. I think we all know that getting through to the group stage can be a real lottery and I don’t think it’s a sound basis to build a robust ‘trickle-down’ system of cash to either help develop younger Scottish players or improve the playing potential of non-Euro participating clubs.

I think the correct way to go is to ensure that the CL money is distributed straight to the chosen leagues although the formulae involved for an equitable distribution would be complex and no matter how well-intentioned is bound to be highly contentious.

I also have the horrible feeling that we are far too late for something as sensible as that and the vested interests are way too entrenched to agree to it. if things continue going the way they are I think it the longer term it will be very damaging to football in general but it would take real courage and foresight to change the spokes in the wheel before they actually break IMO.

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AquinasPosted on11:40 am - Mar 30, 2014


Dave King did lose £20M to RFC, all evidence suggests so, Phil checked with SARs re talk of RFC income of £18M from Old Co.this is an urban myth.
It looks likr DK got ‘duped’ by Super Duper Sir Dave!

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neepheidPosted on11:40 am - Mar 30, 2014


the taxman cometh says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:26 am
1 0 Rate This

how quickly after a SC semi gubbing will the admin button be pushed?
============
Very quickly, is my guess. If there is going to be an admin at all, it has to be before the end of the season. The Championship could be a real uphill struggle with any sort of points deduction.

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Danish PastryPosted on11:57 am - Mar 30, 2014


ecobhoy says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:27 am

I think a major problem in what has been suggested so far is a failure to address the situation the money disbursed from the CL … I also have the horrible feeling that we are far too late for something as sensible as that and the vested interests are way too entrenched to agree to it. if things continue going the way they are I think it the longer term it will be very damaging to football in general but it would take real courage and foresight to change …
———–

Too true. It seems odd that Europe’s biggest teams are rewarded with more and more. Do UEFA actually want inequality?

Whether it be Barcelona, Manchester United or Celtic, big teams will always do well because of their fan base, and their ability to reach European football. Getting into the CL gives more than just the prize money. Teams also benefit from sell out stadiums, sales of food and refreshments, and indirectly player sales. It offers a nice shop window to exhibit your hidden gems and sell them on with a tidy profit, thank you very much. So add these perks to the prize money and you move the elite teams from merely beyond reach of the local rivals and into another financial dimension.

None of Europe’s big teams would suffer too much from half the CL prize money pool being distributed directly to the leagues represented. In the same way, say 25% of all prize money available to the SPFL could be distributed as a one-off solidarity payment, divided equally among all 42 teams. Might not mean much to the top league, but what difference it might make down the leagues to help them maintain their youth work — which will ultimately benefit clubs in the higher leagues as they will have a potential conveyor belt of talent to scout young players from.

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the taxman comethPosted on12:04 pm - Mar 30, 2014


neepheid says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:40 am

2

0

Rate This

the taxman cometh says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:26 am
1 0 Rate This

how quickly after a SC semi gubbing will the admin button be pushed?
============
Very quickly, is my guess. If there is going to be an admin at all, it has to be before the end of the season. The Championship could be a real uphill struggle with any sort of points deduction.

========

Maybe then we will see if there is such a things as fan power, what chance of another season in the 3rd tier?

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the taxman comethPosted on12:05 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Danish Pastry says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:57 am

0

0

Rate This

ecobhoy says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:27 am

I think a major problem in what has been suggested so far is a failure to address the situation the money disbursed from the CL … I also have the horrible feeling that we are far too late for something as sensible as that and the vested interests are way too entrenched to agree to it. if things continue going the way they are I think it the longer term it will be very damaging to football in general but it would take real courage and foresight to change …
———–

Too true. It seems odd that Europe’s biggest teams are rewarded with more and more. Do UEFA actually want inequality?

Whether it be Barcelona, Manchester United or Celtic, big teams will always do well because of their fan base, and their ability to reach European football. Getting into the CL gives more than just the prize money. Teams also benefit from sell out stadiums, sales of food and refreshments, and indirectly player sales. It offers a nice shop window to exhibit your hidden gems and sell them on with a tidy profit, thank you very much. So add these perks to the prize money and you move the elite teams from merely beyond reach of the local rivals and into another financial dimension.

None of Europe’s big teams would suffer too much from half the CL prize money pool being distributed directly to the leagues represented. In the same way, say 25% of all prize money available to the SPFL could be distributed as a one-off solidarity payment, divided equally among all 42 teams. Might not mean much to the top league, but what difference it might make down the leagues to help them maintain their youth work — which will ultimately benefit clubs in the higher leagues as they will have a potential conveyor belt of talent to scout young players from.

=======

UEFA only want to make money that’s their No1 concern

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ecobhoyPosted on12:15 pm - Mar 30, 2014


neepheid says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:25 am

I hope this hasn’t been posted before. A statement from Vanguard Bears, staunch defenders of the status quo, whatever that may be on any given day.
====================================================

I find the VB comment: ‘The RFFF was set up to fight our Club’s corner against our detractors out there’ absolutely facinating.

I actually thought the RFFF was set-up in the club’s darkest hour in an attempt to try and ‘save’ their club. I never ever thought the cash was raised to fight the supporters of another team who seem to obsess the VB as can be seen with their support of the discredited claims of corruption against Celtic and just about every public body in Scotland as well as numerous professional, independent advisors.

It’s another case of following the edicts handed-down from the brogues and blazers who truly have shown themselves by previous behaviour to be the biggest danger to Rangers’ financial survival.

I am not a Rangers supporter and didn’t contribute to the RFFF but even I have a fairly clear idea of what the money was collected for as outlined in the official RFFF minutes from 4 July 2012. as undernoted:

c) Current and Future Use of RFFF

‘Sandy Jardine confirmed that no money from the RFFF has gone to Charles Green or the Rangers ‘newco’ in relation to running costs. He went on to thank the fans for the funds that had been raised and reiterated that the money in effect belonged to the fans and the RFFF committee would be seeking fans views as to how the monies should be used in future.

‘A subsequent meeting, potentially immediately prior to the new season, would be held to discuss future use of the funds. A number of suggestions were made from the floor and the committee as to how these maybe used, including, inter alia, a Rangers Museum; purchase of ‘fans shares’; youth development; a player; or transfer to the Rangers Supporters’ Assembly.’

That meeting of supporters’ reps were clearly thinking of how to save and strengthen their club and increase fan input and control.

I have no opinion one way or another as to whether RFFF money should be spent on Houston’s defence as that is a matter for Rangers supporters who contributed the dosh in the first place. I assume the VB are referring to Sons of Struth when they disparagingly dismiss ‘new age’ Rangers fans groups.

I can understand the angst of the VB who have a tiny number of members and a very rigid, minority position within the Ibrox support. They are, of course, entitled to oppose the suggestion of paying legal fees for a Bear but I feel they are revealing how out-of-touch they are with the wider Rangers support who are angry at the way the issue with Houston has been handled and that his aged parents have been thrust into the legal front-line according to reports.

It must be hurtful to watch Houston burst onto the scene and almost overnight successfully organise 30,000 fans for a placard protest against the incumbent Board. I can see how those in power view him and his new-agers as a real danger to their position.

Perhaps the VB might be rewarded for their loyalty to the leadership with a new orange top 😆

But I am heartened if indeed there are ‘new age’ fan groups now active at Ibrox – perhaps some Bears are waking-up and seeing that they hold the future of the club in their hands and that it’s time for a change and to start living within their financial means.

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neepheidPosted on12:17 pm - Mar 30, 2014


the taxman cometh says:
March 30, 2014 at 12:04 pm

Maybe then we will see if there is such a things as fan power, what chance of another season in the 3rd tier?
=====================
The rules as they stand will get them promoted (assuming they are 15/25 points clear and can stand the points deduction), I just can’t see any way that could be stopped. It’s an absolute disgrace, and I’ve no doubt that the rules will be changed to ensure it never happens again, but only once TRFC are safely promoted.

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TaysiderPosted on12:31 pm - Mar 30, 2014


ecobhoy says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:27 am

————

The uncertainty over whether a Scottish team would make the group stages is an issue. I would envisage an approach whereby those odds were risk weighted and a Trust fund only paid out on a delayed basis, so for example if on average a Scottish team only gets through once every two years then you anticipate only getting funds on a bit less than a 1 in 2 year basis but also build up a pot to allow for lean periods. It’s not perfect I know and it does mean a delay in funds trickling down. It would help if the SFA and SG could also fund, although I don’t know if rules would permit this from SG. The funding amounts may not be huge but it would incentivise / promote youth development and we’ve seen how relatively small amounts of additional funds allocated down to the Championship can make a significant difference to clubs on lean, mean budgets.

It would be better if the issue were addressed at an international level with a greater distribution away from participants but the realistic prospects are far lower to get on that scale due to the entrenched interests that you mention.

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redetinPosted on12:33 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Aquinas says:
March 30, 2014 at 11:40 am
Dave King did lose £20M to RFC, all evidence suggests so, Phil checked with SARs re talk of RFC income of £18M from Old Co.this is an urban myth.
It looks likr DK got ‘duped’ by Super Duper Sir Dave!

__________________________________________________________

What does that mean though? Did he make a personal capital loss on shares all in one year? Did he have capital gains elsewhere that he could offset the loss against? Or was it a loss from a DK company investment that could be offset against gains in other years? This story is repeated as if it is a single transaction. Are things so simple?

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helpmaboabPosted on12:50 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Here’s an idea. Why don’t folk actually go out and support their team instead of sitting at home bemoaning the fact that Celtic get all that Champions League money.Aberdeen,Dundee Utd Caley,etc bring thousands to big day cup ties but where are all these supporters every other week?

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AuldheidPosted on1:07 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Ecobhoy

Re distribution of CL money: This for me was one of the underlying causes of Rangers downfall. The rewards for qualification are too high and perils of failure too dire.

UEFA are powerless to impose a change but they should be driving a debate to look at how the vast wealth that the interest in football creates is spread more around the game and does not end up as a spare BMW on some player or agent’s driveway, for that is where most of the income goes.
Some education into the interdependent nature of the football business is necessary starting with players. Their 40k a week pay rise is another players redundancy.

Then there is the media whose snout is in the same trough and fail to understand the dangers that uncontrolled misdistribution of wealth causes.

However that is for the longer term.

In Scotland I take the view that every team that plays the title winners is playing in the CL. The SPFL is just another regional qualifying round so why should those clubs not winning UEFA places not get a share of the rewards the qualifiers get?

It does not have to be huge amounts but if a club entering the group stages gets £15m, would say £3m of that going into a higher solidarity payment make much difference to the chances of the club in the groups reaching the last 16 or getting a 3rd place slot?

The issue is what to do with the £3m extra coming into the game. If it ends up as a wage increase without improvement in performance that does nothing to increase competition.

So it has to be directed elsewhere. It could be used to help clubs develop players, to encourage clubs to live within their means with a bonus payment to clubs who do so, to provide a softer landing to a relegated club.

I am sure there will be other ways to spend that spare BMW money in more effective ways but the first step is recognising that the current distribution model is killing football.

I hold no ill will to Man Utd but I hope they fail to get a qualifying place for next year’s CL to see if the cold wind of failure and having to compete with an oil heated neighbour changes their mind about the current model.

There are too many running football who think it is only a commercial enterprise, where putting a rival out of competition is good for business.

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TaysiderPosted on1:10 pm - Mar 30, 2014


helpmaboab says:
March 30, 2014 at 12:50 pm
———
Thanks for the suggestion! I’m a season ticket holder so I like to think I do my bit. But even if more supporters were getting out to do our bit (and we all know cup final games attract far bigger crowds for “provincial” teams) that is as unlikely to bridge the gap with current football economics as it is to enable Celtic to win the Champions League. Even if for example United doubled their season ticket holders their total income would still be in the £6m plus area compared with Celtic’s £75m odd in 2013!

Here’s a thought for you and indeed all TSFM readers. This site has a deserved reputation for excellent analysis of the finances at TRFC. For the best insight into what is happening I and I’m sure many others come here, not to the MSM.

But it is strange that when you raise the issue of a vision for a future Scottish game you almost sense an embarrassed silence on here, like making a totally inappropriate remark in polite company. However it is surely a key question? What do you want? If the current financial fate of Rangers holds an almost morbid fascination, is it because you wish to be sure that a return of the SDM duopoly years will not be possible, or at least not for many years? It sometimes seems like all the brain power is focussed on a negative and it would be good to read a bit more of what people see as how to make the Scottish game better. I know part of that is to do with our authorities being transparent and trusted again but beyond that if there was more of a vision that most supporters could sign up to for a better future, that would surely be a good thing?

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DonegaltimPosted on1:13 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Re: CL income. The farcical situation where 3 or 4 teams from a single country competing in the same tournament not only ridicules that tournament but stands it high as a measurement of pure unadulterated greed.

This system only deepens the chasm of unfairness towards the smaller countries. Even the title suggests idiocy. It’s called the Champions league and not Champions and the next 3 or 4 league. The whole system of accruing points per country is somewhat skewed towards the countries with a higher TV income, further skewing the end result.

Celtic in the CL are relative paupers and yet we have Derek McInnes telling us two of Celtic’s stars would cover his annual budget?? Not too sure what he meant but anyway, how a country like Scotland can seriously compete is beyond me. Celtic punch above their weight but how far could we expect Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Motherwell and the rest to seriously acheive.

Until there is a much more even spread of wealth from the very top, then I’m afraid it’s much of the same. Return to actual champions competing with smaller nations having a play off system to reach the last 16 or 32 proper but not 3 or 4 from any country. Champion is in the hat from England, Spain, Germany, France, Italy, Holland and ??? Another couple, with the rest made up to form 16 or 32. It cannot be any more unfair than the system presently in place.

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on1:35 pm - Mar 30, 2014


helpmaboab says:
March 30, 2014 at 12:50 pm

34

1

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Here’s an idea. Why don’t folk actually go out and support their team instead of sitting at home bemoaning the fact that Celtic get all that Champions League money.Aberdeen,Dundee Utd Caley,etc bring thousands to big day cup ties but where are all these supporters every other week?

____________________________________________

Greater glasgow has a population of 1.2m covering an area of 142 sq.miles
Highland region has a population of 0.23 million over an area of 11800 sq. miles.

That is 1/6th of the population spread across and area 80 times the size.

Or to put it another way, some Caley fans have further to travel to a home game than many Celtic fans would to go to most away games.

We don’t do badly considering… especially since we have only been established for 20 years, and compete against shinty, Aberdeen, Celtic and sevco, as well as Ross County for support.
There is only 1 younger club that I am aware of that has bigger attendances than us.

Lower the ticket prices and attendances will increase.

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Caveat EmptorPosted on1:38 pm - Mar 30, 2014


‘Pushing the admin button’ may well be the smart move. The way things are, they could absorb the points deduction, gain promotion and continue the debt-free journey. However, can an exit from administration be engineered in time for next season? Phil has spoken about a ‘planned’ admin and expresses surprise that this was not put into action, being blindsided by DK the stumbling block.
Phil is also correct in his assertion that LP are a top drawer outfit. I wonder if a 15 point penalty for next season figures in their business plan. I think not. Just an opinion, but I think that LP see their exit strategy as being rather more short term than putting this outfit ‘back where they belong’.
I also have an opinion on ‘where they belong’ but that’s another story.

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TSFMPosted on1:42 pm - Mar 30, 2014


On the redistribution thing, I think the position of Celtic and their fans depends very much on how they see themselves in terms of Scottish and European ambitions.

There is little doubt that a significant redistribution of wealth is required to speed up the process of equilibrium which would see greater competition. If a Scottish platform is the one that Celtic see themselves occupying in the long term, then it follows that some kind of meaningful redistribution is required.

On the other hand, if Celtic see their future outside the Scottish game, it also follows that redistribution will be anathema to them, since they will be anxious to strengthen their credentials in a European sense to sue for membership of either the EP or a wider European League.

Of course there is always the possibility that there is an answer here which will satisfy both objectives in the short term – but I can’t see that ever happening 🙁

Big Pink has just sent me a very interesting interview he has completed for the Podcast with David Low, the business analyst who rode shotgun with Fergus McCann during and after his takeover of Celtic. In that interview Low sheds some light on exactly how he sees Celtic’s future. I won’t give anything away here, but I do think that the real debate will centre itself on what Celtic’s view is.

The Celtic “schizophrenia” that Stuart Cosgrove referred to in our last podcast may well be something that needs to be resolved before the game in Scotland can move on.

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CastofthousandsPosted on1:51 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Danish Pastry says:
March 30, 2014 at 10:58 am

“I was interested to hear that Tam Cowan interjected ‘What’s yer Denmark equation?”
——————————————
That caught my ear too. You’ve obviously been feeding them PR puff pieces. You’d have choked on your crisp bread if they’d started quoting the numbers.

Concerning Billy Boyce’s earlier comment concerning DK’s £20M, Jackson countered that the allegation (Mark from Hamilton) that he received a large portion of this in recompense was merely a press report. I remember reading said article. I may encounter it again as I read further down the blog but if it hasn’t already been re-posted could someone with the information and inclinations please do so. It was from a South African financial journal if recollection serves me well.

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TSFMPosted on1:52 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Donegaltim says:

March 30, 2014 at 1:13 pm

Until there is a much more even spread of wealth from the very top, then I’m afraid it’s much of the same.

_________________________________________________________________
I think you are correct in your conclusion, but only if we are forced to play the CL game. Maybe the international box office of the CL now drives the game, but why do we need to take part in it? Who says we MUST be able to compete at that level?

National leagues thrived long before TV and European football. Maybe we are all just accepting the European model as a fait accompli. Maybe the answer lies outside the box?

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whispererPosted on1:52 pm - Mar 30, 2014


The UEFA Champions League ….

Excludes “Actual” Champions

Includes “Non” Champions

Ah guess that says it all really !

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SmugasPosted on2:16 pm - Mar 30, 2014


TSFM

Don’t discount Celtics own approach to their ‘schizophrenia’ either in terms of its influence on ‘the rest’ and I include sevco in that.

They can be serious euro contendors if they wish, and if they can find the funds. Alternatively they can continue where they are now (or more accurately were a year ago imo), euro small fish with an occasional big bite and walk the SPL or they can slacken off from a financial perspective, bank the CL monies for the future and slip back towards the bunch, doing just enough to remain champions. Ironically, without a european dividend to the rest of the clubs, their (the clubs) best interests lie in option 3.

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AllyjamboPosted on2:22 pm - Mar 30, 2014


TSFM says:

March 30, 2014 at 1:52 pm

TSFM

You’ve struck on something I’ve wondered about for quite some time now. This obsession with the Champions League, or, indeed, European football. I know there’s little or no chance of that ever changing, as that is what has induced the mega-rich money-men into the game in the first place, and they now control it. Just look at Romanov with the Hearts, and what his ambitions have led to (a microcosm of what such greed can lead to). I don’t blame Celtic for holding onto as much money as they can, under the system they’ve won it fairly and squarely. It is up to the men at UEFA to ensure the game, throughout Europe, flourishes, but the chance is long gone and their noses are so far in the trough they have no vision, so it will never change. It is one of those ridiculous situations, where the game needs money, and money is killing the game.

It is not Celtic’s role to save Scottish football, they can’t, the only people who can save it are the legislators. Someone, a just and fair someone, with power, must take the bull by the horns and sort it out. I suspect it will only happen when the very top clubs leave their respective leagues and a new, fairly regulated, European body is created to ensure the vast number of remaining clubs prosper in a system aimed at fairness for all. The ideal scenario would be that the top clubs then, through their greed and avarice, crumble, along with their super league, and we are left with a new dawn where it’s the game we all love that is all that matters.

It will never happen!

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AuldheidPosted on2:26 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Taysider

On your point about tsfm not addressing the issues regarding how to improve the game in general and on redistribution of CL money, if you were able to browse back I think you will find it raises it’s head from time to time and I’m really glad to hear it is an issue finally being aired mainstream and being resurrected again here.

TSFM has a point on Celtic ‘ s willingness to forego any CL income depends on where Celtic see their future.

That in turn requires that vision to be clarified. If for example it will take a number of years to break free of current boundaries originally set by geography but broken by TV, then there is a case the club could make to supporters and shareholders for foregoing a percentage of the CL income coming their way.

Between that income for say the next 5 years and profit from player sales and after improving the match day experience around the ground and internal capacity building what happens to what is left over?

Redistribution to shareholders or redistribution within the game?

That is not a decision Celtic can make without dialogue with the shareholders nor can the dialogue start until their is a clearer idea of which camp Celtic see themselves having to pitch their tent in the next 5 years.

In the meantime it seems, ironically as the nation decides on whether to stick or twist, that in football there is a growing realisation of just how much we need each other.

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Para HandyPosted on2:29 pm - Mar 30, 2014


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
March 30, 2014 at 12:35 am

I believe the dignity TUPEd over…..
Regarding Administration:
The preparatory work was completed for a quick clean Administration last month (as per my recent piece).
Moreover the work was completed to a tight deadline under circumstances of some urgency.
People close to the action are baffled that the Admin button has not been pressed.
The DK intervention DID blind side them.
Their cost base is crippling and they will continue to be in hand-to-mouth crisis mode until they slash those costs.
It is all very very strange.
However I am satisfied that the picture I have painted of their internal goings on has been essentially accurate.
———
Thanks for the responses, Phil. I never doubted the veracity of your reporting.

Could the fact the admin button has not been pushed because they need to line up a buyer for the “club part of the company” to then pay the property part of the company rent? Perhaps DK said that he wasn’t prepared (or even able) to purchase, hence they need to delay until such time as they can find another mug/spiv/off-the-radar-millionaire?

This could also be part of the current gaming scenarios.

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AuldheidPosted on2:45 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Smugas

When you say Celtic can be serious euro contenders do you mean being in Europe after Christmas or quarter or semi or finals?

What would it cost to be serious contenders at that level?

Most clubs that are there either have a wage bill subsidised by sugar daddy money or TV income way above what they get for reaching the later stages.

Celtic do not have either and being in Europe after Christmas either last 16 CL or Europe League is a realistic target. That should be achievable without it costing more than the return on expenditure.

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upthehoopsPosted on2:52 pm - Mar 30, 2014


helpmaboab says:
March 30, 2014 at 12:50 pm

Here’s an idea. Why don’t folk actually go out and support their team instead of sitting at home bemoaning the fact that Celtic get all that Champions League money.Aberdeen,Dundee Utd Caley,etc bring thousands to big day cup ties but where are all these supporters every other week?
========================
In my view it too simple a black and white argument to say cup semi’s and finals should be the benchmark for higher attendances every week. If 40,000 Aberdeen fans turn up at a final what percentage of their potential support had to mobilise themselves to achieve this? I am also of the view that the demographics of Scotland makes it far easier for 50,000 fans to turn up at Ibrox than it is for the same to turn up at Celtic Park.

Leave the media to beat fans up over attendances, because printing and talking dross without any serious analysis is one thing they are REALLY good at.

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ecobhoyPosted on2:58 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Auldheid says:
March 30, 2014 at 2:45 pm

Celtic . . . being in Europe after Christmas either last 16 CL or Europe League is a realistic target. That should be achievable without it costing more than the return on expenditure.
============================================
And the key to this is fans recognising and accepting that expenditure should never exceed possible returns. Most of us know what happens when the Micawber principle is ignored and it isn’t pretty 😥

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SmugasPosted on3:29 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Auldheid/Eco

My point exactly.

Footballwise last 16 is achievable. With soft funding, it could even become routine, as in routinely loss making!

Just on the admin points deduction stuff. Dont see the reason for the doubt tbh. The ability to sell a club without the need for admin after the close season begins has to be worth an extra couple of mill from he who would be saviour shirley. And being able to actually blame the fans. Thats just genius!

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John ClarkPosted on3:38 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Taysider says:
March 30, 2014 at 1:10 pm
‘…. I know part of that is to do with our authorities being transparent and trusted again but .’
————–
Having trust in our Football Authorities, Taysider, is, I think, rather more than just a ‘part’ of the process of improvement: it is key!
They have virtually destroyed their credibility over the last two years and really have to re-build from scratch. They have not even begun to do that. I call in evidence even the response made by Regan to Richard Gordon’s question’s about the stadium choices for the semis. Poor Richard is no Jeremy Paxman against that ‘something of the night’ former Home Secretary, able to ask the same question 13 times, so Regan was able to dodge the question about whether they had even thought of a ‘what if?’ scenario, simply by rabbiting on about TV crews and the need to get advertising boards moved!

In my opinion, we simply cannot trust or listen to the present SFA Board even on any routine administrative issue, let alone on a long-term ‘vision’ for the future.They have made it abundantly plain that they are almost by nature blind to their own deficiencies and those of their office bearers, and ready to throw Integrity to the winds sweeping from the direction of Govan.
There is now a stasis, a paralysis, while the ‘saga’ continues to drag on, and we are all lumbered with the nonsense that’s going on, fully expecting that our Authorities are certain of only one thing- that they will save the new distressed club from the consequences of the actions of its own predatory directors and would-be sugar daddies.
The Authorities, as much as RFC(IL) did, have spat in the eye of Scottish Football. They will do so again, if they feel they have to.

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upthehoopsPosted on4:06 pm - Mar 30, 2014


JimBhoy says:
March 30, 2014 at 3:48 pm
==========================
I think Butcher will cut it at Hibs as well, but he needs time to put his stamp on them. The thought crossed my mind today that Hibs could go down as well this season. How would a well managed club like Hibs, and a Hearts out of Administration, square with getting the final part of ‘the journey’ completed?

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JimBhoyPosted on4:12 pm - Mar 30, 2014


On the CL debate, as a Celtic fan, I am ok with the Celts reaching the last 16 every 3 yrs. To get there with a team that cost a fraction of their peers is a worthy positive. The CL progress needs one major variable, Luck. Luck of the draw, luck on the night. Lack of bad luck…

Personally I would hate my team to have the money of the top English sides, I know it sounds daft, but I am a real advocate of progressing players and Celtic have been good at that over the past few year. I look at what the big English teams pay for mediocrity and it just makes no sense to me…There is always an exception of course but develop your youth players, buy young emerging talent, is the way I like to see my team progress….Just my opinion…

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Matty RothPosted on4:18 pm - Mar 30, 2014


ianagain says:
March 29, 2014 at 3:06 pm
13 1 Rate This

Matty Roth says:

March 29, 2014 at 10:06 am

ianagain says:
March 29, 2014 at 12:05 am
16 2 Rate This
Not sure what you mean by money talks as the teams budgets are not likely to be massively different although Afc spend a large amount on youth development which tends to inflate the “football” budget.

=======================================================

Matty
Apologies Im actually glad to be reading about some other wee team doing well.

I’ve painful experience of meeting the early incarnations of that well funded youth system in the form of Aberdeen boys club in Glasgow amateur leagues in my younger days and getting humped royally each time. Just jealously I guess. It was after one such occasion I realised I really wasn’t having fun any more and chucked it. Mind you one of the opposition was (If memory serves one W.Miller)

====================

No worries Ian. Sorry if I got a bit defensive!

Sometimes I think it can be a good thing for your club to just keep performing well but keep out of the media focus a little.

Most of the media coverage is crap anyway.

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JimBhoyPosted on4:20 pm - Mar 30, 2014


@Upthehoops

Thanks for the reply. Making ‘friends’ along the way… I slate Ally often simply because he forgets to engage brain when he puts out words when he is clearly out of his territory. But maybe he does need more players. Maybe a 50 player squad next season will give him a better chance of winning that league because he clearly does not have the smarts of a good coach and chances are throwing resources at that prob will give him a better chance of winning against better teams the division will throw at them..

Good to see rangers give some young boys a chance recently too, it’s how it should have been from the beginning of rangers 2 but that 7 yr plan just did not exist thanks to Mr Green’s MO.

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TaysiderPosted on4:25 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Auldheid says:
March 30, 2014 at 2:26 pm

I’m aware the issue has occasionally been raised here Auldheid (including by your good self) but as a somewhat fleeting visitor. But we agree that it’s a good one to return to and good to hear it being aired in the mainstream. To me it is another side of the whole discussion about TRFC. For some in the media the Scottish League without the old rivalry is unthinkable and so any bending of the rules, re-heated lamb articles there are justified if they serve that “greater good” of getting the status quo back.

So to me that’s where the whole vision thing is fundamental. Liquidation has led to a vacuum, the SDM era is over but where do we go next? Celtic have a huge amount of influence here. Do they want 20 in a row? Will they ceaselessly campaign to leave the Scottish League? Or do they wish to see the domestic set up strengthened?

John Clark, yes I totally agree but there is a but. To state the obvious, the authorities or certainly at the least the SPFL ultimately reflects the collective will of the bigger clubs. If the clubs collectively came to a consensus on an agreed direction, I am sure we would see that reflected in the SPFL leadership.

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Danish PastryPosted on5:12 pm - Mar 30, 2014


No, it’s not all peace and tranquility in Scandinavia. Pretty shocking this. Some of you have no doubt been to Helsingborg in the past couple of years. As someone mentioned on here recently, hatred isn’t rivalry.

European Football – Fan killed as rival groups clash in Sweden
A Swedish top-flight match was suspended at half-time after a supporter was beaten to death on the opening day of the season.

Eurosport – 48 minutes ago
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Eurosport – Helsingborg Djurgården
A 43-year-old man was assaulted near Helsingborg’s Olympia stadium before their first game of the campaign, at home to Djurgardens.
The man, who has not been named but is from Stockholm and believed to be a Djurgardens fan, was taken to hospital but later died.
Fans of the away team invaded the pitch at half-time, chanting “murderers, murderers” at the home fans, before the match was called off.
“I can confirm that a person has died at Helsingborg Hospital. He was brought there after an incident at Karntrappan in central Helsingborg,” police spokesperson Ewa-Gun Westford said.
“It is a sad day. It is extremely tragic for this man’s family, for football and for the whole community,” Helsingborg Sports Director Jesper Jansson told the TT news agency.
“Any sporting consequences of the game are completely overshadowed by this tragedy.”
On Saturday five people were hospitalised following a brawl between rival fans ahead of the match. According to local police, three arrests were made and 33 more men were temporarily held in custody for that incident.

The traditional pre-match fan march that marks opening-day games in Sweden was also marred by violence, as away fans rushed home supporters on their way to the stadium.
————

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upthehoopsPosted on5:13 pm - Mar 30, 2014


ecobhoy says:
March 30, 2014 at 2:58 pm

And the key to this is fans recognising and accepting that expenditure should never exceed possible returns. Most of us know what happens when the Micawber principle is ignored and it isn’t pretty 😥
==========================
Interestingly a certain group of fans released a statement a couple of days ago saying ‘only when this money is received, can the club begin to live within its means!’

Where do you even start with that?!!!!!

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JimBhoyPosted on5:19 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Celtic on their way to 10 in a row… WooooHoooo…. I honestly think this is way down the list of priorities for most Celtic fans…..Nice for it to happen nice for 15 in a row but DK. Sally etc think it is a priority, which imo is BS…I wanna see Scottish football progress and the national team progress with great young talent…AND any other young Celt’s non Scottish national players do well for their prospective national teams…

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davythelotionPosted on5:19 pm - Mar 30, 2014


If Dave King invested £20m in 2000 ‘…as a bit of fun’ http://www.thefreelibrary.com/CASTLEMILK+KID+WHO+PUT+pounds+20m+INTO+RANGERS%3B+KING+OF+IBROX%3A…-a061041999 .
He decides to sue David Murray in 2012. https://m.facebook.com/footballchatnobigotry/posts/363969120336183
Why has he waited so long? He was on the board when DM took decisions which he now believes were in the interests of .Murray Group, yet, as is often claimed by apologists for oldco/DM, EBTs were in the accounts.
What is it that DM didn’t disclose to a board member/investor for 12 years?

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justshateredPosted on5:19 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Taysider says:
March 30, 2014 at 10:00 am

I agree that there is a wider cash distribution problem but that issue cannot be resolved by one country attempting to redistribute the wealth generated by one club from one nation on its own if no one else does the same. Remember Champions League money is not even distributed evenly within the groups as prize money is dictated by the population of your nation not on your fan base. So basically a club from Scotland will receive millions less than a club from France, Germany, Spain, England, and Italy. The same nations also have at least two, or more likely three, teams in the group stages which ensures, along with their national co-efficient, that they will never have less than two teams in the groups stage unless there is a three year plague in their country.
Meanwhile UEFA’s Financial Fair Play model is essentially pulling up the drawbridge as teams struggle to bridge the gap to the super rich, or even very rich, clubs. Clubs cannot get ‘soft investment’ or have a share issue to generate new cash because this is a ruse where the clubs wealthy owner simply underwrites the share issue. In other words what RFC did in the early 2000’s is no longer an option. The FFP is designed that clubs financially live within their means or make a slight loss in relation to their turnover.
The current ambition for Celtic is to qualify for the group stages and anything else is a bonus. Remember if Celtic do not qualify for the group stages or do not get through the Europa League group stages they make a loss. Celtic are modestly ‘speculating to accumulate’ realising that things have to be cut if you do not qualify two years in a row. So bearing that in mind what would happen if Celtic fail to qualify do they get some money back out of the kitty to support their youth academy?

Your plan does sound feasible but, as I said above, I don’t believe that will help Scottish football in the long term as Celtic would eventually fail to qualify and then the clubs receiving the cash initially would have a financial shortfall themselves as the kitty dries up.

Perhaps the SFA should take command of the situation but this will be one of these things where they will duck their responsibility again.
As mentioned elsewhere UEFA are only interested in the wellbeing of the top clubs. The individual associations do not want to rock the boat as their office bearers are desperate to jump to the UEFA gravy train where they will live off the fat of the hog for the rest of their days.
I’ve said before that thirty or forty years ago Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Man City etc would have one or two world class players as opposed to the five or six, or even eight or nine, that the do now. These players would be more evenly dispersed over ten or fifteen clubs making each competition better. The creation of the Champions League as well as the introduction of the ‘sugar daddy’ mentality has robbed the sport of it’s competitiveness. The Champions League consumed the cash lost from the abandoned Cup Winners Cup creating a cash gorging monster. Don’t get me wrong from the quarter finals onward they are tremendous to watch from a footballing point of view but I always get the feeling I’m watching a football version of the Harlem Globe Trotters.

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AuldheidPosted on5:25 pm - Mar 30, 2014


Jimbhoy
Smugas

The underlying problem Celtic face in regular last 16 CL or Euro League after Xmas is similar to that of Ajax who have a similar scout – develop – sell model, although being in a league with better competitors means Ajax do not even qualify in some seasons.

Check wiki for appearances.

Celtic at least have a regular opportunity to qualify as title winners to then qualify for CL but the problem they face is how to reduce risk of not qualifying when the best players are sold ( as they were last summer with Celtic having no real choice in the matter) .

It takes time for new arrivals to settle in so the trick is to get them in as early as possible in the winter window if possible and also the summer.

By winning the title early and having brought in Griffiths ( who can the lone man up front away given his work ethic) and replacing Ledley with Johanson they seem to have learned a bit from last year.

A Snodgrass or equivalent signing in the summer with injured players ready by then should see them better prepared to qualify and compete than they did in this year’s CL.

I would prefer CL group 3rd place every year than a last 16 one in 3 ( but would not grumble if if that was exceeded. 😉

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ecobhoyPosted on5:54 pm - Mar 30, 2014


upthehoops says:
March 30, 2014 at 5:13 pm
ecobhoy says:
March 30, 2014 at 2:58 pm

And the key to this is fans recognising and accepting that expenditure should never exceed possible returns. Most of us know what happens when the Micawber principle is ignored and it isn’t pretty 😥
==========================
Interestingly a certain group of fans released a statement a couple of days ago saying ‘only when this money is received, can the club begin to live within its means!’ Where do you even start with that?!!!!!
————————————————–
That ‘certain group’ have no problems with the answer ❗ SPEND IT ASAP 😆

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