Scottish Football and the case for a Bismarck!

Avatar Bybroganrogantrevinoandhogan

Scottish Football and the case for a Bismarck!

Good Evening.

When considering any type of protracted negotiation or discussion that seems to be going on too long, there is a story that is always worth remembering– whether it is actually a true story or not as the case may be.

It is said, that heads of state all met at a congress in what is now modern Germany sometime after the Franco Prussian war of 1870-1871.The entire congress was being run almost singlehandedly by the then Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismark and he was keen to get all the necessary signatures on paper to seal some deal or other.

However, others at the congress were not too keen to sign up to certain elements of the proposed deal and so they hithered and dithered and in the eyes of Bismark they simply waisted time by concentrating on the minutiae- the little matters, with a view to ensuring their own interests were best served in these small areas– and did not focus on the big issue.

Having tried to talk these others round and educate them in his own beliefs and point of view on the bigger picture without any success, Bismark grew weary of the continuing delay and the posturing of his colleagues. All attempts at reason and diplomacy had failed in his eyes and so he decided to take a different tack.

Accordingly, it is said that whilst others were still inside debating endlessly on this matter or that, Bismark left the building and began simply shooting the windows in with the aid of a riffle which he just happened to have handy.

Those inside were naturally alarmed at this turn of events. They soon forgot about the minutiae under debate, they abandoned the previously expressed self interest and simply signed up so that they could get away from the mad chancellor and his house.

Job done so to speak.

Whilst I do not in anyway condone the behaviour of Otto von Bismark in this instance, and have no doubt that he was an autocrat, what I will say is that he believed that there was too much time being spent on the unimportant stuff and not enough time recognising what really needed doing– from his point of view of course.

Today– and it seems every day for months— we have endless debate about the future of Scottish Football. League reconstruction and the redistribution of footballing wealth has become a marathon– even before it has started.

Yet I believe that at the moment all parties concerned are not focusing on the radical reform that is fundamentally needed which is the creation of one, strong, properly structured and constituted body which is capable of the proper and ethical governance of Scottish Football and the business that surrounds football.

No matter what system you try, or distribution you agree, without proper sensible strong governance you are wasting your time.

Further, whatever body is set up, and whoever is chosen to be its CEO (or whatever the head honcho is going to be called), they must tackle the issue of corporate and fiscal compliance and the proper administration of any body corporate which actively takes part in Scottish Football– and that includes any such body or person who is involved in the running of a member club.

In addition, in so dealing with any corporate malfeasance or chicanery or whatever, the rules have to be applied with a rod of iron by an iron body.

As we can now clearly see, Football clubs and football in general is not, and never will be, immune from the effects of bad corporate governance and on occasion downright manipulation of facts, figures and contracts.

Whilst great play has been made of the fact that Gavin Masterton has handed over his shares in Dunfermline FC ( or its holding company ) the fact of the matter is that this in no way solves the problem faced by the football club. Whoever gains control of that club will still have to rent the ground from Mr Masterton’s company– and it is a rent that the club may just not be able to afford.

Ever!

It is only my opinion of course, but I am of the view that Mr Masterton has sealed a loan deal with his bankers which is of a type and duration which could not normally be achieved by other borrowers. The Loan has a lengthy period during which no repayments are necessary and interest can continue to accrue.

All very good you may say, but the level of debt concerned is not one that appears to be sustainable by Dunfermline FC and so whoever buys the club as a going concern ( if anyone buys it at all ) will have to pay an agreed rental to Gavin Masterton– and if the rental is not sufficient to repay Mr Masterton’s lenders, then I suspect that the end game here will be a search to find a buyer for the ground at some point over the next twenty years or so, with the hope that as part of the deal a space will be found somewhere for a new ground like New St Mirren park– the difference being that in that instance St Mirren were in charge of their future whereas Dunfermline are not.

The Governance of that club and the financial arrangements behind the club should have been looked at and examined by the SFA long before now– and the Dunfermline fans warned about the dangers of any such arrangements. Effectively those finance arrangements, should they continue, will probably mean that the club will have no option but to move from its established home!

All to suit one man!

Thankfully Dundee were spared a full takeover by Giovanni Di Stefano, however is it not a bit worrying that this man who has been jailed for over 14 years for various fraudulent acts, was allowed to roam around Scottish Football for a prolonged period?

Not so long ago Di Stefano did play a part at Dens, was in line to buy almost 30% of the shareholding, and was oft quoted in the papers and so on. The thing is that there were those who were prepared to give him a place at the Dundee table and in so doing invited him into Scottish Football.

Surely the SFA, had they been inclined to, could quite easily have pointed out that many of the claims of Mr Di Stefano were at least dubious if not completely incorrect? Yet nothing was being said at the time and silence prevailed.

Whilst not in the same calibre as Di Dtefano, Vladimir Romanov has now been at Hearts for a prolonged period. While I have no quibbles about the legality of Romanov’s takeover of Hearts, any money of a sizeable size which is transferred into Scotland from a foreign country will be subject to scrutiny by the Crown office to ensure that it is clean. Lithuania in particular is said to have a banking system which is governed loosely and sometimes does not meet the compliance standards expected in this country.

With his bank having gone bust, Romanov still retains the majority shareholding at Tynecastle, but there are questions still to be answered about what has happened at Hearts but life will be very different for the Edinburgh club going forward.

Again– could the SFA have done more to monitor the situation and could they have demanded clarity and detail from the Hearts owner as to his business dealings and the detailed arrangements with his bank?

At Ibrox, well things just go from the weird and inexplicable to downright astonishing– and all through a tremendous amount of smoke and mirrors.

It is clear that the SFA have no idea what to believe from Charles Green or for that matter Craig Whyte. On the face of it, there are clear links between Whyte and Green with the former paying over a six figure sum in return for absolutely nothing it would appear– with similar transactions going between Whyte’s colleague, Aiden Early, and Charles Green.

What is clear is that Green gave a clear undertaking to the SFA that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Whyte and would have nothing to do with Whyte going forward. Now, at the very least he is admitting that he met Whyte on several occasions, and whilst he may have made representations to Craig Whyte— these were all lies designed only to get Whyte to where Green wanted him.

This is hardly the act of someone who has been bona fides in his business dealings either with Whyte or with the SFA as the licensing body.

It is against this background that the Scottish Football Agencies need to wake up before they find the fans of the game ( at least those who want to stay interested in the game ) doing a Bismarck and panning in the windows of this whole house of cards.

Football Clubs, football fans, and indeed football itself needs protected from the financial and corporate shenanigans, and the governing body must be much more active and permanently vigilant in watching out for and if necessary anticipating the people and the transactions which have and will jeopardise clubs and the game in general going forward.

It is clearly no longer acceptable to rely on self regulation or mere declarations and undertakings from the clubs themselves. The Administrators must be much more active and employ far greater professional expertise in carrying out an almost constant analytical and reporting function in relation to club finance and corporate regulation.

All and any changes in funding, boardroom changes, investor changes and anything else major should be the subject of immediate and proper scrutiny by the SFA and there should be fair, immediate and stiff sanctions for non compliance, and any type of dilatory behaviour on the part of club officials who would seek to conceal the truth or who fail to properly disclose vital matters which should be out in the open.

Further, the funding detail– such as the never ending loan re Dunfermline should be a matter of public record in all its detail so that fans and investors can make information based value judgements when dealing with any club.

Such stiffer regulation should not develop into anything like a corporate witch hunt or any kind of draconian big brother syndrome, however the need for change given all of the current troubles is obvious to one and all.

Further, the attempted fudge surrounding Rangers league status last summer and the ongoing disquiet surrounding the position of Campbell Ogilvie does nothing to boost faith in and the reputation of Football Administration in Scotland.

Things are far from clear and there appears to be continual dithering and fudging. No one has any idea where the Nimmo Smith Report has gone nor what import it is to have— if any. Why is that?

Dithering and bumbling over detail is no longer an option. Strong clear governance is required to protect the game from being hijacked by those who have their own corporate and financial agendas.

Such people cannot be allowed to determine the way Scottish Football runs  or to conduct themselves in a fashion that leaves football and everyone involved in limbo.

It is time for Scottish Football to find its own Iron Chancellor!  There is a need for someone who will, if necessary, come along and shoot the lights out of any club or Company Director who wishes to play fast and loose with the game of football.

About the author

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broganrogantrevinoandhogan author

Boot wearing football, sport & total nonsense fan-- Gourmet, Bon Viveur and eedgit! - Oh and I write a bit occasionally!

5,402 Comments so far

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paulsatimPosted on9:37 pm - May 1, 2013


macbrayne says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 20:47

http://twitpic.com/cnc2j4

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olemungobhoyPosted on9:42 pm - May 1, 2013


OT ..BUT STILL….
JUST WATCHED AN OL3E sPANISH FRIEND WHOSE GIVEN ME A LORRA PLEASURE OVER THE YEARS GET THE S**T KICKED OUT OF THEM BY A TEAM FROM THE BIRTHPLACE OF nAZISM. Oops sorry for shouting …………..wipes away a tear and I’m only left with Ally’s alleged quote of last week …….

“ou sont les neiges d’antan”

Well done and congrats Bayern … it’ll take a good team to beat you.

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Danish PastryPosted on9:44 pm - May 1, 2013


paranoidmotherwellfan says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 21:35
2 0 Rate This

Danish as I’m sure arabest will point out, first time Barcelona have lost both legs since 1987 against Dundee Utd!!
——–

Yes, I thought of Dundee United tonight. I saw both matches back then and what a triumph it was too. That United team deserved a star on their kit.

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angus1983Posted on9:47 pm - May 1, 2013


zilch2 says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 12:50

Yet, if tens of thousands of football fans have had their eyes opened about the true nature of the Establishment, then the country will have changed, and for the better.
——

At a level personal to those few thousand who have kept up, perhaps.

Unfortunately, it seems that the Establishment is not particularly bothered by the wee man, and I fully expect the Establishment to remain established.

It may be that They finally realise that TRFC are a tentacle which has withered despite all collaborative efforts to keep it alive. In which case, They’ll turn off the life support, salute the flag and tip the husk into the sea.

I believe that, if and when Establishment support is withdrawn, Rangers will be suddenly be exposed. The club (and company, for it will no longer matter which is which) will die a thousand deaths in quick succession. Watch for those in the know manning the lifeboats shortly before this happens.

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ParanoidWellFanPosted on9:47 pm - May 1, 2013


Agreed Danish, a wonderful team, and an example of what Scottish football could achieve without a strong Rangers :). And yes, I know football is very different now post Bosman and with Champions League finances. Wee Jim couldn’t sign players on 10 year contracts these days!!

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angus1983Posted on9:49 pm - May 1, 2013


olemungobhoy says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 21:42

… A TEAM FROM THE BIRTHPLACE OF nAZISM.

Er … no, I didn’t read that just now, did I?

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easyJamboPosted on9:58 pm - May 1, 2013


The old BoS charge over Murray Park is the Floating Charge that CW held (probably still does). D&P were of the view that there was no debt attached to it, therefore it could be ignored.

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Lord WobblyPosted on10:02 pm - May 1, 2013


Congratulations to Bayern München for their win over Barça.
Congratulations to Celtic for showing them how to do it.

😀

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Danish PastryPosted on10:11 pm - May 1, 2013


angus1983 says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 21:49
9 0 Rate This

olemungobhoy says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 21:42

… A TEAM FROM THE BIRTHPLACE OF nAZISM.

Er … no, I didn’t read that just now, did I?
———–

Aye, a bit Basil Fawlty-ish, just less funny.

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john clarkePosted on10:18 pm - May 1, 2013


Lord Wobbly says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 20:22
.’..But maybe a poet?
You just don’t know it
Yet!..’
—-
I get what you quite cleverly see but must , my lord,
declare myself quite innocent of attempts at
poesy.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on10:25 pm - May 1, 2013


john clarke says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 22:18

I thought it very clever of you JC, no bashfulness now!! Really happy to hear about your precious wee baby.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on10:29 pm - May 1, 2013


john clarke says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 22:18

I thought it very good JC and no bashfuless now!!! Very happy to hear about your precious wee baby.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on10:30 pm - May 1, 2013


Oops sorry twice!!

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john clarkePosted on10:33 pm - May 1, 2013


“…Hateley added: “What you do get from players who have already played for the club is a sense of responsibility.” ( Evening Times)

Samdaza, anybody, or the non-TUPE mob?

Who writes that stuff for Hateley to put his name to?

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TDFBPosted on10:46 pm - May 1, 2013


ObfuscationHunter ‏@BhoyEddie 11m
Dear #CelticFamily – if you have a Sevconian in your followers, you might like to send them this – courtesy @Hail7 http://t.co/KtJ3K3nPbJ

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sixlargebeersPosted on10:53 pm - May 1, 2013


Tom Tom – you are correct. A floating charge does just that – floats over all the assets of a company and attaches when there is an insolvency event at the instance of the creditor.

Floating charges don’t show up against a property in the Land Register because they are as you say granted over ALL assets of the company – only fixed charges are listed in Land Reg. Floaters can only be registered in the Companies Register.

WRT the Sport Scotland charge, that would likely have been insisted upon so as to allow SS to have security for any part of the grant funding that they might claw back in the event of (for example) funds being used for a purpose outwith the original grant terms and conditions. I suspect it’s probably only of historic relevance now as the clawback would only apply for a set period from the grant date.

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paulmac2Posted on10:55 pm - May 1, 2013


Mark Hateley…..in one word….TUBE!

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tobyPosted on11:15 pm - May 1, 2013


Mark Hateley – what is he for again ?

No, I don’t mean what does he stand for …what is his purpose ? If it is to make even the inept journalist in Scotland look in any way competent – no mean feat by the way – bravo – job done, If it is to say the most ridiculous things that the same journalists would love to suggest but know they would be laughed out of their local boozer – sorry, I mean office – then he is merely laying the groundwork to get the subject aired in the first place- kite flying, I believe it’s called. Hateley just generates the hot air to get it off the ground.

I mean its just what the SPL needs, Mark – a team created out of the debris of liquidation and granted an accommodating berth in the 3rd division ahead of teams awaiting their rightful chance to join the senior leagues. A team who cannot name who holds the keys to Ibrox, who have legal wranglings wrapped around the ownership of shares, property and the money raised in the IPO. Can they see out the summer, never mind a season in the SPL. You cant just rely on a completely and equally farcical organisation (ha ha – funny word that – organisation) that is the SFA. Sure – let’s get them fast-tracked to the SPL – leapfrogging every other Scottish club striving by legitimate means to get to the top flight. Start in the way they mean to continue – it makes perfect sense in that tiny little world that is Mark Hateley’s brain. A (very) curious place.

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briggsbhoyPosted on11:18 pm - May 1, 2013


I went to see Malaga v Getafe on Sunday past and let me tell you that I have seen games of equal standard in the SPL and more importantly as entertaining. What was noticeable was that the pitch was like a carpet and a good surface helps with the passing game and better ball control on display. The atmosphere was nothing special we had two groups of fans who tried to get things going either end (both home support) but there was little passion on display roundabout me, all quite subdued with an occasional outburst. Nobody pissed out their heads mind you.

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briggsbhoyPosted on11:30 pm - May 1, 2013


oh aye and I paid €40 for a seat, it was freezing

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scapaflow14

scapaflow14Posted on11:30 pm - May 1, 2013


internetbampots says:

Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 23:15

When the Gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers, sage advice from Ovid, which Mr Hately et al would do well to heed.

Rangers are in no condition either financially, or organisationally to cope with being put straight into the SPL. If they had any sense they would be welcoming the comparative respite of the next two or so seasons to start sorting out the mess.

Unfortunately, sense seems to be in very short supply, rather than starting to resolve their problems, they appear to be hell bent on compounding them.

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goosyPosted on11:54 pm - May 1, 2013


Why did Bomber demand to see the Title Deeds for Ibrox?
We know now that the CW fc over Ibrox and MP is registered on the MP title deeds together with the fixed charge owed to the Scottish Sports Council. No doubt this fc was first noted on the MP title deed when MP became an asset of RFC and was captured by the LBG fc over 10 yrs. ago This fc was taken over by Whyte when he cleared the £18m LBG debt using money from Ticketus
Since the fc was a debt against RFC the holder CW became a creditor of RFC. Since the fc still applies to MP it means that CW is now a Creditor of MP
D&P must have transferred this fc debt when they sold Ibrox and MP to Green. They did not have to transfer it at the same time. Perhaps they did so to reduce the chances of being accused of selling the assets too cheaply?……. Who knows?
In any event
Since the CW fc is currently recorded on the MP title deeds, it must also still be recorded on the Ibrox title deeds
This means that whoever owns Ibrox and MP owes Whyte the value of his fc .This was claimed to be around £26.5m having risen from £18m at takeover date due to charges applied to RFC by its holding co RFCG Ltd
Which brings us to Bomber Brown
When the anti-Green frenzy was at its peak Brown stood on the steps of Ibrox and demanded that Green show him the title deeds to Ibrox (Not the title deeds to Ibrox and MP)
At the time it was a fairly bizarre statement to be making and sounded a bit odd particularly since Bomber was allegedly being advised by Donald Findlay
However
When Whyte acquired the LBG fc he was entitled to take possession of the Title Deeds to Ibrox and MP
AS an experienced Spiv Whyte will have realised that retaining the original deeds would give him some provenance in the event of any future dispute over ownership. Anyone claiming ownership against him could only have a photocopy at best. It seems likely that Whyte took possession of the original copy of the title deeds to Ibrox and possibly MP as well

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
So when Green double crossed Whyte and tried to raise ST money there was some nervousness among the support
What If
Whyte sought the help of an old friend and former Steel Magnate to pass a message to Bomber
Something along the following lines
“Green does not have the title deeds to Ibrox because they are still in the possession of Whyte
And
Whyte is willing to support a D&P sale of these assets to the Bomber Consortium?

Wouldn`t that be a plausible explanation?

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tobyPosted on11:56 pm - May 1, 2013


Scapa says…

… they appear to be hell bent on compounding them.

Who am I to stand in their way, Scapa… not I – a mere bampot of the internet ?

Anyone for arranging deckchairs on the Titanic ?

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john clarkePosted on12:01 am - May 2, 2013


internetbampots says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 23:15

‘.. a team created out of the debris of liquidation and granted an accommodating berth in the 3rd division ahead of teams awaiting their rightful chance to join the senior leagues. A team who cannot name who holds the keys to Ibrox, who have legal wranglings wrapped around the ownership of shares, property and the money raised in the IPO. Can they see out the summer, never mind a season in the SPL…’
——-
This straightforward,simple observation points up the wickedness and perversity of our Footballing Authorities in their craven, unprincipled desire to accommodate a club labouring under such disqualifying characteristics.

As said before, an offender against the rules is one thing.

When those who make, and should apply, the rules are themselves offenders , the offence is unpardonable and the offenders should be expelled from office, because nothing that they will do in the future will ever be seen as having moral force.

The SFA board is a busted flush, and should be swept from the table and new cards dealt.

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tobyPosted on12:24 am - May 2, 2013


john clarke says
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 00:01

I completely agree John – any attempted gerrymandering by the SFA would go down like a bowl of cold sick with pretty much everyone of a fair mind – even among the fans of TRFC. I believe most of them just want get on & work their way up. As Scapa mentioned they are in no shape to last in the SPL…the money tends to drain a lot quicker when their a gaggle of court cases and QCs to be paid nevermind outgoing directors and improperly tuped legal costs…oh yeah and the taxman, cant forget him – can we?

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tobyPosted on12:28 am - May 2, 2013


john clarke says
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 00:01

I completely agree John – any attempted gerrymandering by the SFA would go down like a bowl of cold sick with pretty much everyone of a fair mind – even among the fans of TRFC. I believe most of them just want get on & work their way up. As Scapa mentioned they are in no shape to last in the SPL…the money tends to drain a lot quicker when there’s a gaggle of court cases and QCs to be paid – nevermind outgoing directors and improperly tuped legal costs…oh yeah and the taxman, cant forget him – can we?

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olemungobhoyPosted on12:49 am - May 2, 2013


Danish Pastry says:

Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 22:11

8

0

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angus1983 says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 21:49
9 0 Rate This

olemungobhoy says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 21:42

… A TEAM FROM THE BIRTHPLACE OF nAZISM.

Er … no, I didn’t read that just now, did I?
———–

Aye, a bit Basil Fawlty-ish, just less funny

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

not meant to be funny …just a statement of historical fact..”facts are chiels that dinna wing”

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forweonlyknowPosted on12:49 am - May 2, 2013


Getting some DejaVu here.

This is all very tiring …

Independent commission appointed

(there is a pattern emerging here I think?)

The press defend a very reputable QC to be impartial and thorough.

Sevco admonished of ALL guilt! ‘Twas him M’Lud”.

Move on folks this guy knows his Sh*t! …

All I want to know is …what age is his Granny!?

@JohnMcLean_HS67

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on2:46 am - May 2, 2013


So, with the Scottish Cup final coming up – who will be given the privilege of presenting the trophy to the winning captain?

Will the SFA President Ogilvie invite himself to do the honours?

Or will Ogilvie just restrict himself to the ‘reception line’ to shake hands with the teams and officials ?

Should Ogilvie really be seen anywhere inside Hampden on Cup final day – to further discredit the office of SFA President and the organisation itself?

If Ogilvie had any dignity he would choose to remain holed up inside the Hampden bunker – along with Regan – playing his umpteenth game of dominoes… 🙄

Oh hold on… a ‘Rangers man’ and dignity…?

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upthehoopsPosted on6:17 am - May 2, 2013


scapaflow14 says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 23:30
14 1 Rate This
internetbampots says:

Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 23:15

When the Gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers, sage advice from Ovid, which Mr Hately et al would do well to heed.

Rangers are in no condition either financially, or organisationally to cope with being put straight into the SPL. If they had any sense they would be welcoming the comparative respite of the next two or so seasons to start sorting out the mess.

Unfortunately, sense seems to be in very short supply, rather than starting to resolve their problems, they appear to be hell bent on compounding them.
===================================================

Hateley is clearly not the sharpest tool in the box. Like many he probably sees a rapid move to the SPL as a signal for the good old days to return in an instant without giving any thought whatsoever as to how it could be funded. In my opinion he, like many others, does not give a toss about ‘the good of Scottish Football’. His only aim is to have Rangers at the top lording it over Celtic ASAP.

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bigsausagefingersPosted on6:35 am - May 2, 2013


Oldmungobhoys comments don’t surprise me. I seem to recall him relating Downs Syndrome with an inaccurate description of people from NE Asia back in RTC days.

If he wants to be factually correct maybe he could add that the British government were also the founders of the concentration camp, (see South Africa).

Move on please mungo, the rest of us are.

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jimlarkinPosted on6:38 am - May 2, 2013


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/spiers-on-sport-the-old-firms-youthful-delinquents.1367339535

graham spiers, says he heard the sectarian singing.

– yet he does not say what the actual songs were.

i wonder why he does not list the sectarian songs he “heard”

and he’s still projecting his own belief – that all celtic fans miss “the old-firm derbies”

sorry spiersy – your talking sh01te.

list the sectarian songs you heard please and report them to the SFA and police, so that
“the clubs” can be fined.

[btw graham – news for you – rangers are deid]

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upthehoopsPosted on7:28 am - May 2, 2013


Can any of the Accountants on here advise.

Today the media have once again wheeled out Neil Patey, this time to comment on the Hearts situation. Each outlet describes Mr Patey as a ‘football finance expert’. Apart from the overspending aspect, can anyone advise what is different between football finance and any other organisation’s finance?

On a wider note, I am sure there are many highly qualified and experienced people in Scotland who could easily comment with authority on financial situations at football clubs. So why do the media only run to Neil Patey? I recall during the Rangers saga last summer he made many predictions that turned out to be wrong, so why the love-in?

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helpmaboab

helpmaboabPosted on7:36 am - May 2, 2013


For Graham Spiers to use his report on the youth game at Firhill as a platform to air his plea for TTFKAR (the team formerly known as rangers) to get a leg up to the SPL is just ridiculous.Spiers has continually attempted to make a case for this but he hit a new low of desperation this time.

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paulmac2Posted on7:38 am - May 2, 2013


briggsbhoy says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 23:18
…………………………….

You should a game in Italy next…my son took in an Inter Milan v Lecce game…15 euros…and he said the atmosphere was great…the fans a bit mental…and the game like watching paint dry…but for 15 euros good value..

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Tartawulver

TartawulverPosted on7:51 am - May 2, 2013


A quote attributed to different people, but surely intended for Mark Hateley

“It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

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TaysiderPosted on8:16 am - May 2, 2013


There is a hearing today in Lithuania “about the future of Ukio Bankas,” the bank which is owed £15m by Hearts. One option would be to liquidate the bank, reference the Scotsman today.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/ian-murray-confident-hearing-won-t-threaten-hearts-1-2916555

Does anyone understand why there is a risk of this leading to administration for Hearts? When you borrow money from a bank there are terms and conditions relating to interest and a repayment schedule (or no repayment schedule if you are an individual borrowing from a generous Trust arrangement but that’s another story!)

Just because the bank is in danger of liquidation, how could that lead to a sudden demand by the administrator for the £15m in contravention of the terms of the loan (a possibility referred to in the article?) Surely the likelihood is that the debt to Hearts, as an asset of Ukio, would be bid for and acquired by another party, at a discount to reflect the risk of it going bad?

Possibly there is an opportunity for Hearts to seek to buy out the debt for a vastly reduced sum (depending on whether they could gather the resources to do it). But the only risk I would immediately have anticipated is if Ukio were previously willing to take a relaxed view on the terms of the loan being adhered to while a new party was unwilling to be as generous. Or is it a condition of any bank loan that if the bank goes bust you repay the lot immediately… Should I check my mortgage!

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neepheidPosted on8:43 am - May 2, 2013


Taysider says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 08:16

Just because the bank is in danger of liquidation, how could that lead to a sudden demand by the administrator for the £15m in contravention of the terms of the loan (a possibility referred to in the article?) Surely the likelihood is that the debt to Hearts, as an asset of Ukio, would be bid for and acquired by another party, at a discount to reflect the risk of it going bad?
+++++++++++++++

Many commercial loans are in fact repayable on demand, so that if the lender (the bank) goes bust, then whoever inherits the loan, liquidator, new bank or whoever, has the right to demand full repayment, even if instalments under the agreement with the original lender have been paid on time. That’s my understanding, but I’m sure there are others on here better qualified to comment.

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torrejohnbhoyPosted on8:58 am - May 2, 2013


David Low ‏@Heavidor 15m

Worthington shares on the rise. Up 27% since announcing their claim. Does someone know something we don’t know?

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on9:04 am - May 2, 2013


Whereas Rangers:

Performance (weekly) -5.04 %
UK FTSE All Share (weekly) 0.41 %
Performance (YTD) -36.87 %
Performance (yearly) -25.66 %

Settlement as of 1 May
A day to forget about for Rangers International Football Club Plc as it records a strong decline, losing -2.59% on previous levels. The stock got off to a difficult start at 57.5, gapping below the previous session’s range, and dropped further in subsequent trading but eventually bounced back to life, surging to new heights before closing at 56.5, near the day’s high. The technical scenario for Rangers International Football Club Plc in the last week shows the security lagging behind the UK FTSE All Share. As compared to the related index, the security has shown a lower performance.

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Forres Dee (@ForresDee)Posted on9:26 am - May 2, 2013


From Twitter

BBCBMcLauchlin ‏@BBCBMcLauchlin 22m
Proceedings have began in a Kaunas court to declare Ukio Bankas bankrupt. #bbcsportscot

BBCBMcLauchlin ‏@BBCBMcLauchlin 20m
Hearts owe Ukio Bankas around £15 million. Debt likely to be recalled if bankruptcy approved

I get no joy watching another team slide into administration, even though it might mean my club evades relegation, my only advice for Hearts fans;

Stick together and dig deep!

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Rabo KarabekianPosted on9:31 am - May 2, 2013


One thing that has arisen out of the demise of Rangers is that people now have had a chance to witness both cause and effect.

The recognition of the causes should make us a bit wiser moving forward, but an assessment of the effect appears to be a point of contention.

The overwhelming consensus on this blog is that the effect has been positive. In fact the removal of a culture (which is perceived by most as negative) from the top of the sport has allowed competition to flourish in a sporting manner, untainted by bitterness and perma-rage. This was all brought into focus during the events at Firhill recently. Is Firhillgate evidence that Rangers bring out the worst in the Celtic support? Certainly, if reports have been accurate, it is not evidence that the Bears behaved more loutishly at Firhill than they have done at Annan, Hampden or Berwick over the course of this season.

The overwhelming consensus in the MSM though is that the effect of Rangers’ absence is negative and bad for the game. Usually backed up by non-specific, disingenuous arguments concerning finance – although one suspects that vested interest and survival of the print media is more at the heart of that than anything else.
The division of opinion between Blogoshere and MSM is a microcosm of the wider, Sporting Integrity vs Finance debate. In fact the words “Sporting” and “Integrity” hae been given the same treatment in the MSM daily drip-feed that has previously been reserved for “Trade Union”, “Socialist”, “Militant” etc.

More drip-drip propaganda: “Celtic fans want Rangers in the SPL!” Is the cry. I can honestly say, with hand on heart, that I never met these two people, or even heard anyone outside of the MSM/Rangers/Clubs fans axis, agree with them.

For the MSM, and apparently the contributors to Rangers forums, sporting integrity is no longer a virtue, but a vice held by those with character defects. Good is bad, black is white and so on.

So who is correct? Is it the internet bampots, or is it the MSM Lamb Munchers? I think we know the answer to that, but what matters is whose version of “what is good for Scottish football” prevails.

The bampots have a real job on their hands, because they face an alliance of MSM, the clubs themselves, and the Rangers fans, desperate to make a return to what they perceive is their rightful place.

Personally, I think the prolonged absence of Rangers might persuade people that football is in fact actually an enjoyable and pleasant pursuit. They may be somewhat surprised at how many friends can be made in the spirit of resentment-free, fair competition. This blog is proof positive of that.

The longer that absence persists, people are more likely to resist a return to the bile, spit and venom that we were reminded of at Firhill last week. That is why the talk of reinstatement is becoming louder, shriller, more excitable.

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on9:33 am - May 2, 2013


Quiz

Who has recently made this statement and about which team?

“They had players on £8,000 to £10,000 and they couldn’t afford that,” the xxxxxxxx xxxxx stated. “Is that them cheating to win a cup final? Look at the state they are in”

Ans

John Brown on Hearts.

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TaysiderPosted on9:40 am - May 2, 2013


neepheid says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 08:43

Thanks. Hadn’t appreciated that there was such risk attached to commercial loans. Must be a concern for any business and maybe explains why the relationship with the bank is so key to, for example, DUFC, although in practice in the UK the bank would have to consider the PR damage associated with taking such a hard line (assuming the scenario wasn’t that the bank had gone bust but had just decided to recall their loans).

Well, maybe there will be a Dundee Derby next season but, like Forres Dee, I hope the Hearts fans find a way out of this for their club.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on9:41 am - May 2, 2013


upthehoops says:

Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 07:28

Can any of the Accountants on here advise.

Today the media have once again wheeled out Neil Patey, this time to comment on the Hearts situation. Each outlet describes Mr Patey as a ‘football finance expert’. Apart from the overspending aspect, can anyone advise what is different between football finance and any other organisation’s finance?

On a wider note, I am sure there are many highly qualified and experienced people in Scotland who could easily comment with authority on financial situations at football clubs. So why do the media only run to Neil Patey? I recall during the Rangers saga last summer he made many predictions that turned out to be wrong, so why the love-in?
______________________________________________________________

Don’t really know. I used to work with Neil and as a partner in Ernst & Young, in their corporate finance division, he is an experienced and credible finance guy. However, I don’t particularly see why he is the “football finance expert” as E&Y don’t particularly do any football finance work. I suspect it is just that he has been willing to be a rent-a-quote in favour of the Sevconians.

Neil is a corporate finance guy – deals, m&a, buyouts, etc. For matters relating to administration and liquidation one would have thought that E&Ys Restructuring partner would be a better contact – this is a guy called Colin Dempster.

As an aside, Rod Petrie also used to be a partner in Ernst & Young.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on9:48 am - May 2, 2013


Just had a check on linkedin.

Neil has 25 years experience as a transaction adviser and is a specialist in due diligence and wider transaction services. He spent ten years in London, setting up and leading Ernst & Young’s Private Equity team.

Now based back in Edinburgh, he leads E&Y’s Transaction Support team in Scotland.

He has a broad range of sector experience which includes football both as an experience and as a hobby, [b]having acted for the current owners in their acquisitions of Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool. [/b]
______________________________________________________________

Some football experience but not really the same thing though 😉

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bluPosted on9:52 am - May 2, 2013


Rabo Karabekian says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 09:31

Is Firhillgate evidence that Rangers bring out the worst in the Celtic support?

=============================================================
Rabo – that just leads me to discount the rest of your post. Blaming Rangers fans for the behaviour of those Celtic supporters involved in nonsense at Firhill last week is just rubbish. Go read Fans Against Criminal Damage.

Then come back and talk about the ills of Scottish football.

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Rabo KarabekianPosted on10:01 am - May 2, 2013


blu says:

Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 09:52
=============================================================
Rabo – that just leads me to discount the rest of your post. Blaming Rangers fans for the behaviour of those Celtic supporters involved in nonsense at Firhill last week is just rubbish. Go read Fans Against Criminal Damage.
___________________________________________________________

Why not just go read what I wrote and not put words in my mouth?

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bluPosted on10:13 am - May 2, 2013


Rabo Karabekian says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 10:01
1 0 i Rate This

blu says:

Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 09:52
=============================================================
Rabo – that just leads me to discount the rest of your post. Blaming Rangers fans for the behaviour of those Celtic supporters involved in nonsense at Firhill last week is just rubbish. Go read Fans Against Criminal Damage.
___________________________________________________________

Why not just go read what I wrote and not put words in my mouth?

=========================================================
What’s your answer to your question, “Is Firhillgate evidence that Rangers bring out the worst in the Celtic support”?

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briggsbhoyPosted on10:16 am - May 2, 2013


paulmac2 says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 07:38

German game next for me I think and alas not the CL final.

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on10:19 am - May 2, 2013


Horse – bolted

http://sport.stv.tv/football/223721-scottish-fa-tribunal-to-rule-on-charles-green-racist-charge/

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arabest1Posted on10:27 am - May 2, 2013


RE Monday night, if the press pack, the SFA brass, (maybe even the not so Scarlet Pimpernel aka Vincent Lunny) and a significant number of Strathclyde’s finest, possibly hundreds, witnessed thousands of individuals engage in conduct contrary to the law of the land and conduct that Fifa and Uefa have been trying to stamp out…….what an opportunity! Surely between them they could build a case to take some meaningful action? Fat chance! Far too many people present are happy to wallow in this like the proverbial pigs in their own faeces. Indeed too many have missed the warm surety of tribal loyalty wrapped up in vicious confrontation. All football contains elements of this mimetic and symbolic violence, but this particular fixture picks and claws at a serious social problem that has blighted our country for centuries, and is consequently falls into the same bracket as racism.

Racism was the norm at football grounds till recently, and the football authorities are to be commended for the forging of a zero tolerance hegemony that sees racist conduct fined, banned expelled from the game and this extends to fans, players or anyone else. The same approach to sectarianism within Scottish football seems a world away. Witness the Berwick game, a town just outside of Scottish legal jurisdiction, but a club very much under the jurisdiction of the Sfa. English media apologise for the bile pouring into the viewers living rooms, Northumbrian police take action and make arrests, the Sfa………..?????

This is not difficult, make a stand set a precedent, hammer the clubs, it’s the only way. How about 3 games behind closed doors? A lot of cash! that would focus the clubs on rooting this out. Any repeat would see the penalty doubled. Clubs have been expelled from cups for incorrect paper work, let’s elevate racist sectarian conduct to a more significant offence than an erroneously dated team sheet and remove the offending parties from the competition so that the football public can enjoy their sport without this scourge which should be consigned to the infancy of our game. I won’t be holding my breath, too many people enjoy it!

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timtimPosted on10:43 am - May 2, 2013


It’s a pity Charles has gone
Today would have seen him proclaiming he had just received an e mail that he
would show us after the interview that Bayern and Dortmund would love to welcome
him into the Bundesliga .
German football needs a strong Rangers*
Come back Charles ,we miss you !

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neepheidPosted on10:43 am - May 2, 2013


ianagain says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 10:19
0 0 Rate This
Horse – bolted

http://sport.stv.tv/football/223721-scottish-fa-tribunal-to-rule-on-charles-green-racist-charge/

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Now that he’s no longer part of their beloved establishment club, just watch them throw the book at Charles. By the way, I wonder how Lunny’s progressing with the Berwick “songbook” case?

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aramintamoobeamqcPosted on10:57 am - May 2, 2013


From KDS’ Sevco thread, so hearsay but…

“A colleague of mine told me yesterday that Paul Murray is telling anyone in the business world who will listen about the “serious fraud” taking place at ibrox. He seems genuinely convinced that the asset sale will be set aside.”

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CastofThousandsPosted on11:03 am - May 2, 2013


goosygoosy says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 23:54

GG, I don’t like to see your comments go unremarked so I’ll do my best to exercise your logic.

I’m not sure you’re fundamental point concerning Bomber only referring to Ibrox in his ‘show us the deeds’ comment need be as significant as you infer. He was after all standing on the steps of the stadium at the time and this is a far more iconic edifice than Murray Park. Bomber wasn’t making a legal point only, it was an emotional appeal and didn’t require t’s crossed and i’s dotted.

Your wider speculation that CW might have tipped him off because Green was deviating from the spiv masterplan cannot be discounted and you appear to have a good instinct for these matters.

What exercises my poorly informed mind on this point is that for CW to get the money to pay off Ticketus, he needs a liquidation of RIFC/TRFC/ABCD? to crystalise his floating charge.

Thinking out loud; Green pulls a manoeuvre to sidestep CW’s floating charge, which is currently the subject of a legal dispute.
You seem to be saying that raising season ticket money was a deviation from the masterplan, I presume because this was Ticketus’ privelege, under that plan.

My gut instinct is that Brown’s outburst was emotional. No-one was in possession of the full complexity of these matters which for me currently illicit confusion largely. For him to have been emotionally impacted he must have seen something that he felt was incontravertible. Cast Iron. Nailed on.

His recent radio joust with Tom English found him in the same state of mind, a year after the incident. I’m not sure that this was just bravado. Whatever he seen or heard, he has not been since satisfied that it is undermined. This I find a little suprising as the ground has shifted so much that many revisions of the conspiracy theory have been considered over that period.

An offer by CW to do a deal with him at the time may have been all that was necessary to produce his now infamous comment.
A recent back page spread disclaiming it in the Daily Record illustrates that his concern has resonated with many.

Somehow I don’t feel your speculation entirely stacks up. I can see that CW’s floating charge can be used for leverage purposes and he saw Green’s arrival as a threat to the masterplan.

There is certainly a logic flowing through all this but it isn’t hitting the ‘Hanlon’s razor’ spot. The zone that suggests this is the path of least resistance.

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arabest1Posted on11:04 am - May 2, 2013


Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 10:57

He seems genuinely convinced that the asset sale will be set aside.”

—————————————————————————————————-

Sorry, I try to keep up but fiance is not my bag. What does this mean Beams?

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rantinrobinPosted on11:05 am - May 2, 2013


The ridiculous whataboutery that has surrounded events at Firhill when a team of Rangers boys played a team of Celtic boys is not even worthy of mention.

Lets look at that last sentence.There is a ring of total innocence about the the boys playing boys bit.The surrounding words start to bring a toxicity to the mix.

There is a trending hashtag flowing through the twittersphere at present #idontmissrangers.

The sad fact is that there are a great many fans,not just Celtic fans who don’t miss this club at all, infact they have enjoyed an atmosphere which is free from bile ,bitterness and downright bad behaviour.

The rallying cry of TRFC might be ‘We are The People’ a chant ugly in itself,but in all honesty for the rest of the clubs ,the presence of Rangers in the leagues brings out an attitude in all of us which can ,at times, be simply the worst.

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duplesisPosted on11:20 am - May 2, 2013


@mullach at 11:03

The main problem with any theory about Green and Whyte which relies on the floating charge is that it misunderstands how a floating charge works. A floating charge is security over the assets of the company which granted it – it doesn’t transfer from that company if the assets are sold – expressly so where the assets are sold by administrators:

Insolvency Act 1986, Schd B1, paras 70 and 113.

Auchenhowie and Ibrox are both unencumbered by the floating charge. The floating charge can only have relevance to the assets of the oldco (RFC2012 plc.)

Moreover at the point that company went into administration, for the charge to have any relevance, that company must have owed Whyte or his company money. As best anyone can tell it did not. The subsequent Ticketus decree against Whyte doesn’t change that, nor will any subseqent successful calling up of Whyte’s guarantees.

Any insolvency event relating to The Rangers Football Club Ltd (previously Sevco Scotland Ltd) or RIFC has nothing to do with this, and won’t allow the floating charge to crystallise. Only an insolvency event involving the oldco would allow that.

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FinlochPosted on11:21 am - May 2, 2013


Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
He seems genuinely convinced that the asset sale will be set aside.”
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Two things

Firstly I really hope that BDO have the balls to declare the sale of the assets last summer invalid and to pursue Duff and Phelps and Craig and Charlie and all the spivs.
Even if it costs more than the recovery because it sends the right message out to future scammers.
I say that as a tax payer who has been swindled, as a voter who thinks what has been allowed to go on has been outrageous and as someone who values honesty and decency above castles in Grantown, Chateaux in France, with or without vineyards and Channel Island Bolt-holes which serve succulent lamb.

Secondly I hope that someone then follows the trail back because it did not start when Craig paid £1 for the club.
It goes back to the business practices of the knighted leader and his directors which included people like Paul Murray and Walter who are now being promoted as potential heroes in the new new Rangers.
It will involve the SFA, SPL and SFL, the MSM and outline the parts they played too.

There will be no closure for anyone (and I mean all the fans) until that happens.

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redetinPosted on11:33 am - May 2, 2013


theoldshed says:

Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 19:38

On the subject of an independent Scotland I’m now strongly of the opinion that there would be no ongoing appeal in the EBT case under a Scottish replacement for HMRC. Not a chance. That is one of the many reasons why this saga has convinced me to change my mind and vote “No” in 2014.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With respect, your reasoning doesn’t make sense to me, theoldshed, particularly projecting forward as to how a Scottish tax authority might proceed to appeal to a tribunal. The present circumstances that have allowed the situation to develop this far are under a predominantly “union-leaning” establishment that will take some years to change. The tax tribunals have to be independent of the tax collector.

Just to balance up your post, I’ll say I’m of the opinion that we have more chance of improving matters in an independent Scotland. So I’ll be voting YES in 2014.

I’ll also be sharing my support between Forfar, Brechin and Montrose next season as I have seen plenty good fitba there and unsegregated fans. Best team I’ve seen this season >>> Queen of the South.

I’ll also be sponsoring a player kit of a Div 2/3 team (this season Stirling Albion) and would encourage individuals or groups of fans to do the same.

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on11:39 am - May 2, 2013


OT but

Credit to Osborne and govt for getting British Overseas Territories to hand over information on money held by UK citizens in them…
.tax havens such as Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Montserrat, Turks & Caicos will reveal details to UK and 4 EU states.

Could be interesting?

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scapaflow14

scapaflow14Posted on11:46 am - May 2, 2013


“What’s your answer to your question, “Is Firhillgate evidence that Rangers bring out the worst in the Celtic support”?”

There is an element in both supports whose loathing for each transcends everything, football simply becomes an excuse to express tribal hatred.

What is disturbing is that this was dying out, the process was running at very different rates amongst the two clubs support, however, we seem to be seeing an emergence of old patterns of behaviour in the youngsters coming up, There are many complex reasons for this: an overly romanticised view of the history of the last 50 years passed on by folk who should know better, and, deep bitterness on both sides of how events have played out over the last year, being chief amongst them.

The footballing authorities have to accept a lot of the responsibility for this, if they had simply followed the rules and delivered clear unambiguous verdicts, the resulting ill feeling would have been much easier to deal with. Instead they have sown the dragons teeth, and we will all be reaping the whirlwind for quite some time to come.

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spanishceltPosted on11:55 am - May 2, 2013


blu says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 10:13

2

5

Rate This

Rabo Karabekian says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 10:01
1 0 i Rate This

blu says:

Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 09:52
=============================================================
Rabo – that just leads me to discount the rest of your post. Blaming Rangers fans for the behaviour of those Celtic supporters involved in nonsense at Firhill last week is just rubbish. Go read Fans Against Criminal Damage.
___________________________________________________________

Why not just go read what I wrote and not put words in my mouth?

=========================================================
What’s your answer to your question, “Is Firhillgate evidence that Rangers bring out the worst in the Celtic support”?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Its clearly obvious there is a poisoned element amongst both sets of fans (in fact amongst all fans/people) and all this nonsense that one lot was bad but the other lot was worse is just a deflection.
You have to ask why anyone who does not normally attend under 17 matches went to Firhill? and in my opinion for a large percentage of them, it was the opportunity to sing and chant the bile and act in the offensive ways they have done in the past at Rangers/Celtic games.

These “fans” should have been cleared out of football years ago but both Celtic and Rangers have been too willing to accept their tainted money.
I know that over the years the amount of this stuff at Celtic park has lessened considerably although not completely, however the song sheet at away games can sometimes be nothing less than an embarrassment to any decent Celtic fan.
Similarly with Rangers I think there is much less of the unsavory songs at Ibrox but again when they are away from home they feel they have a freedom to sing and chant offensive words.

Why not make all teams pay a 50k deposit before each away game to the home team and if the fans dont behave acceptably then they lose the deposit, this will soon get all clubs to police their own fans properly and weed out this vermin from the game.

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on11:55 am - May 2, 2013


Finloch

Spot on its the murky mists of the pre-sale period that will prove very very intersting. Not I think from the football authorities angle but definitely who ordered what from the banking side. Will BDO be able to get there? Im not sure.

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jimlarkinPosted on12:14 pm - May 2, 2013


neepheid says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 10:43

ianagain says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 10:19

Horse – bolted

http://sport.stv.tv/football/223721-scottish-fa-tribunal-to-rule-on-charles-green-racist-charge/

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Now that he’s no longer part of their beloved establishment club, just watch them throw the book at Charles. By the way, I wonder how Lunny’s progressing with the Berwick “songbook” case?

————————————-

it’s filed – under the carpet, next to the queen’s park game at hampden “case”.

oh, wait

. . . sandy bryson said, sevco cannot be guilty of any racial or sectarian singing, because the SFA found out about it, AFTER the singing statrted, they had not been told by the sevco fans what songs they would be singing, so, tough, they can’t be found to be breaking the law or breaching the codes of conduct, if they didn’t tell us they were going to do so, and sing those songs

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Brian McHugh (@pbmchugh)Posted on12:17 pm - May 2, 2013


redetin says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 11:33

theoldshed says:
Wednesday, May 1, 2013 at 19:38
On the subject of an independent Scotland I’m now strongly of the opinion that there would be no ongoing appeal in the EBT case under a Scottish replacement for HMRC. Not a chance. That is one of the many reasons why this saga has convinced me to change my mind and vote “No” in 2014.
———————————-
With respect, your reasoning doesn’t make sense to me, theoldshed, particularly projecting forward as to how a Scottish tax authority might proceed to appeal to a tribunal. The present circumstances that have allowed the situation to develop this far are under a predominantly “union-leaning” establishment that will take some years to change. The tax tribunals have to be independent of the tax collector.
Just to balance up your post, I’ll say I’m of the opinion that we have more chance of improving matters in an independent Scotland. So I’ll be voting YES in 2014.
…………..
Oldshed, I was surprised to see the amount of TU on this post. I’ve had to do a fair bit of research on the causes of the Irish Civil War recently and, of course, this was indirectly (some would say directly) linked to the issue of Irish independence. One of the main arguments of the Unionist side was that the ‘British Establishment’ (i.e.The Crown, Law Lords, Legal System) would save and protect them from the excesses (as they seen it then) of an independent Ireland. In other words it was better to be under the umbrella of the British (let’s face it – English) Establishment that a yet unknown Irish Establishment. This begat the famous cry of ‘Home rule means Rome rule’.
It seems rather peculiar that a hundred years later the same argument is being used by Unionists in this rather strange roundabout way. I’ve heard it from Celtic fans who would be appalled to be called Unionist expressed the same sentiments.
I can understand other debates on defense, the economy etc. but –
Stay in the Union and the British Establishment (The Crown, etc.) will protect Scotland from – well – what exactly?
I’ve got to admit that I’m a believer in the Marxist version of Technological Determinism (go on – look it up!) and have little faith in professional politicians to change the human condition other than on the fringes. So I have to admit to having only a passing, although gradually increasing interest, in the upcoming referendum.
Anyway it’s a slow news day so far. Keep up the bampottery 

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parmahamsterPosted on12:20 pm - May 2, 2013


spanishcelt says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 11:55
scapaflow14 says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 11:46

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Spanishcelt – Absolutely correct in your assertion that the moronic element from both sides of the great divide who turned up at Firhill on Monday would never have turned up had it been Celtic vs Thistle or TributeAct FC vs St Mirren. The idea of a deposit though carries less weight than the threat of closed-doors matches as a result of fans’ misbehaviour at ANY level of game. SPL, under-21’s, under-17’s, whatever – the punishment would and should be the same for the offending club.

Scapa – Look again at some of the CCTV and stills footage of the idiots from Monday. These weren’t all kids. Several on both sides were clearly on the wrong side of twenty and are the ones that we misguidedly thought were those who were leaving all the baggage behind. Still, plenty of time for them to improve on their edumacation in such matters. A few games where their attendance will be denied, never mind shunned, may help them on the path to enlightenment. Of course, I may also be kidding myself on.

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Tartawulver

TartawulverPosted on12:21 pm - May 2, 2013


A follow up on yesterday’s conversations about football reporters and why they are unwilling to speak out against big clubs. As well as editorial pressures, there is also the fear of losing access if they say what they have heard

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/newcastle-united/10030947/Newcastle-United-bans-Telegraph-from-attending-matches-following-dressing-room-split-revelations.html

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SmugasPosted on12:55 pm - May 2, 2013


TW

Correct, but there is a fine line, a massive gaping chasm in fact, between ‘access’ and their critical analysis only going as far as saying you’re a bit long with that 4-iron Walter!

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angus1983Posted on1:02 pm - May 2, 2013


arabest1 says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 11:04

Sorry, I try to keep up but fiance is not my bag. What does this mean Beams?
——

Well, I’m not a qualified agony aunt or anything, but I’d advise you to cancel the wedding plans. Is he someone else’s “bag”, or do you just not love him anymore?

Coat, please.

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kilbowiekeltPosted on1:03 pm - May 2, 2013


TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 12:21
____________________

There is an element of CATCH 22 to your suggestion that reporters can have access to the big clubs, only if they do not write anything negative about those same clubs.

So, they can only have the stories, so long as they don’t write the stories.

What ,in that case, would be the point in them having these stories in the first place ?

Their raison d’etre is to bring the truth, good or bad, to their readers.

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CastofThousandsPosted on1:29 pm - May 2, 2013


duplesis says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 11:20

Thanks for the response Duplesis. I wasn’t attempting a thorough analysis of goosygoosy’s post, merely exercising the logic to see if I could move the thought process on a cogtooth or two.

My superficial understanding is that Craig Whyte paid circa £18m to Lloyd’s Banking Group as part of the club (Oldco) takeover and £1 to Sir David Murray for his shares. This suggests to me that something was purchased (Ibrox, Murray Park, trademarks, right to play, goodwill, history?).

When Oldco fell into administration, CW was one of the creditors. This I understand (and am happy to be corrected) manifested itself as a floating charge. This fc did not pertain to any particular asset but was nevertheless a claim on the value of the business.

To put it simply, in a way I can understand, if CW’ £18m + £1 outlay was at that point ‘lost’ then I can accept that. However much discussion has since ensued concerning CW’s continuing involvement in the saga/fiasco/entertainment to the point where CW has or is about to launch a legal claim of some description.

So when Oldco went into administration/liquidation, this looks to me like a crystalisation event (again, happy to be corrected). However you’re saying that CW lost his money at this point.

So when the assets were sold to Charles Green, CW had no claim on them, despite his apparent ownership.

Ticketus involvement for me is not a direct link but part of the mechanism that would require CW to be forced to pursue assets he feels he has a claim on.

Other posters will be in a better position than I to verify your assertions but if you are correct then an awful lot of smoke has been generated without there appearing to be any source of ignition.

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TartawulverPosted on1:29 pm - May 2, 2013


smugas says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 12:55
Correct, but there is a fine line, a massive gaping chasm in fact, between ‘access’ and their critical analysis only going as far as saying you’re a bit long with that 4-iron Walter!
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Agreed, I’m not saying it excuses the particular brand of dim-wittedness that some Scottish papers/hacks come out with, just pointing out that clubs too are at times actively complicit in taking the sharp edges off what we get to read.

kilbowiekelt says:
Thursday, May 2, 2013 at 13:03
There is an element of CATCH 22 to your suggestion that reporters can have access to the big clubs, only if they do not write anything negative about those same clubs.
So, they can only have the stories, so long as they don’t write the stories.
What ,in that case, would be the point in them having these stories in the first place ?
Their raison d’etre is to bring the truth, good or bad, to their readers.
——————————————–
That’s the theory, but the realpolitik of it is that that Catch-22 is very much written into the informal agreements that are in place between clubs and news outlets. David Conn at the Guardian being banned from Leeds, for example, only enhances his reputation, but a younger and less established journo might have found their career significantly harmed by such an action. Getting the press to self-censor is a powerful weapon, and the threat of withdrawing access is used to try to make that happen. Why else have Newcastle sent in the heavy mob in the above instance?

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aramintamoobeamqcPosted on1:30 pm - May 2, 2013


Arabest – sorry to hear about your relationship problem (!) and the answer is –

http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/technical/technicalmanual/ch25-36/chapter31/part4b/part7/part_7.htm

No time to read through it, sadly but help yourself.

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