The Covid 19 Pandemic is a truly serious game-changing situation for us all.
We are all currently staring into a future with no declared road map exit of
how we might move back to normality and the certainty of disruption now and
long into the future.
Against the background of lockdown to curb the virus spread we have all run smack bang into economic and social chaos.
We have gone from normality into unheard of times virtually overnight and with horrendous economic consequences coming every which way into the future.
Football is not important in the greater scheme of things but still has issues that need attention and urgently because it affects people’s lives.
This Week’s SPFL Plan to Move On
The SPFL are simply the members association who run our leagues on a “for the members, by the members, for the members” kind of way in theory.
For reasons known to them they collectively took the decision to start to draw an end to season 2019 – 2020 with its Covid 19 uncertainty.
This was probably to allow them and all their members (our clubs) to at least
start to plan for the future when income streams will return.
From speaking to those involved from the club side and reading and hearing more at a truly astonishing pace since Wednesday 8th of April, just 3 day ago, the SPFL decided in their wisdom that the best solution was to conflate two particular issues.
To back their case quite forcibly they also provided a dossier of over 100 pages of supportive material. All good bedtime reading for our club’s boards I have been told, but i haven’t seen it.
The issues the SPFL decided to conflate were to ‘pro-rata’ all games played so far this season so they could equalise and close the Championship and Leagues 1 and 2, with the Premiership going the same way if it became clear that fixtures could not be completed.
If and only if the motion was agreed by the members then the end of season prize money would be forthcoming from the SPFL bank almost immediately.
Money desperately needed by some members. A real lifeline in troubled times.
There was also another possible wee carrot dangled.
This might have been of a sort of half-hearted agreement to look at re-organisation of Scottish Football. This because despite the dossier urging clubs to vote yes, the SPFL knew some clubs would not be happy with their proposals and would not agree.
In the Real World of Challenged and Stressed Football Clubs
The SPFL conflation of “do this or no money” meant things like.
The title would be handed to Celtic eventually if Premier Clubs then followed suit, despite Rangers having a mathematical, albeit statistically unlikely, chance of catching their rivals.
Hearts would be relegated despite having enough games to catch their nearest rivals and stay safe possibly by a play off (if they hadn’t already been cancelled).
Partick Thistle would be relegated because they failed to play one league game while playing another SPFL competition and also had a bunch of games left to save themselves.
Stranraer would go down despite being proven late season successful relegation fighters.
Brora (declared Highland Champions) and Kelty (current leaders in Lowland League, by a bawhair over Bonnyrigg) would have no play off with a likely game against Brechin or whoever was going to be bottom of the SPFL2 league.
And these are just the tip of what football chiefs I’ve spoken with have termed an ill-considered iceberg of matters arising from a hapless attempt to bring some certainty to the SPFL membership.
72 Hours of Mayhem as Peter was Played Against Paul
People are interconnected today and from the moment clubs were pushed into a corner they discussed it together and in depth.
They all know who voted how why and when and have WhatsApp records too.
They all feel they could have done it better. I can’t try to sum up the sheer enormity and quantity of what has happened since Wednesday night but after I had penned a piece for SFM on Friday with suggestions that there was a civil war brewing that is just indeed what happened.
Every club effectively had a moral and economic choice and sometimes they were conflicting.
Friday was too close to call
I was in a few communication loops sitting at home on Friday afternoon as the vote unfolded.
I had been warned how close it was going to be and it was fascinating with first Inverness seen as the potentially key vote then an acceptance just before 5 that the whole thing had failed.
Then, 5.30ish, a different and quite hopeful view came out that after the vote had been seen to have failed that a 14, 14, 14, compromised was likely. Sense seemed to be prevailing. Then later and very late in the day a view that 1 vote (Dundee) had still to come and was in effect now the casting vote with all the power that casting votes carry.
Since then we have first seen Dundee castigated in the press and by unthinking media pundits as the villains for holding everything up.
(But that’s now old news).
Today (Sat 11th April), ICT Chief Executive Scott Gardiner was on BBC Sportsound alongside Richard Gordon, Michael Stewart Tom English, Kenny Miller and later on Willie Miller. It wasn’t a normal filler show in a period with no football.
It was truly amazing with some hard facts and honest insights. Uncommonly so.
I should have been forewarned after one well know football finance insider had tweeted last night (Fri) ahead of the curve that “Dundee will have earned some concession and will now change their vote” or words to that effect.
Wow he was ahead of the tsunami that burst this afternoon. If you haven’t heard BBC Sportsound at 2 pm today then the first hour or so is unmissable.
Since then matters have gone on apace we have now heard that Douglas Park, interim Chairman of Rangers, wants the SPFL CEO Neil Doncaster and legal counsel Rod Mackenzie (Rangers links) to stand down ahead of an independent inquiry.
So less than a day after a yet to be agreed vote outcome and genuine internecine war is brewing and exploding with Mr Parks claiming he has damning information from a whistleblower.
In turn he has been asked by the current SPFL Chairman Murdoch MacLennan to substantiate his “very serious accusations”. .
So Who Scored the Own Goal and What Can We Do About It?
As of now I actually don’t care who did what and when.
Stuff has happened and in the fullness of time we can look at how it happened and what we can do to avoid it into the future.
Today we need to move forward and that needs leadership.
Here is a 5 point roadmap.
Ditch this divisive plan
It doesn’t matter how Dundee vote just consign all this crap to history.
Pay all the monies due
This week no strings and if that needs a vote then vote on that and that alone.
Agree what happens and how to end the season
Scottish Football Supporters Association say this must include no relegation and pyramid winners should be included. Don’t penalise anyone at this time.
And an interim plan would be fine of three leagues like nearly got agreed for 20 minutes on Friday.
Take time
End the season properly and fairly and plan for the future to reinvigorate our game for the greater good. The world has changed but we haven’t.
Involve all stakeholders especially the fans
This should all be on the record and transparent.
The Time To Stop The War is Now
Kentes 12th April 2020 at 15:13
I would rather something could be done to try to get money to the clubs and save them.
As others have said, the SPFL have it within their gift to finish the league, declare the positions at the point and pay out the prize money. It wouldn't be that difficult from what I can see.
However UEFA have asked leagues not to do that, and to instead wait a bit to see if it becomes possible to play the rest of the games. Even threatening lack of European football to any league which doesn't play along.
What happened last week was a ham-fisted, poorly implemented attempt to be all things to all men. To get some of the money out, by declaring the lower divisions over. However keeping the league running by not finishing the top division. This complying with UEFA's wishes.
It seems to have spectacularly blown up in their faces because they appear to have tried to force it through quickly. Rather than just doing things properly.
What we may now have is entrenched positions, with the SPFL saying, we will pay out the prize money as and when the league positions are decided and the prizes are due. If they never become due then no-one gets a prize.
It is all madness because it seems a small number of clubs don't want to play along with the only sensible option. It would now seem the same clubs, or at least one of them are portraying themselves as some sort of champion of truth and justice. When they are in fact putting everyone at risk, in order to follow their own agenda, and play to their own support.
Further statement/letter from Murdo MacLennan
Raman Bhardwaj@STVRaman
Statement from SPFL chairman Murdoch MacLennan. Main points: – resolution wasn’t rushed (saying Stewart Robertson happy with time given) – one club in championship (Dundee) have still to cast vote. – Rangers have provided no evidence to back allegations re corporate governance claims: "I wrote to Mr Park on Saturday…requesting any material to support these allegations. I regret to inform you that..I have received nothing..(it's) difficult to understand why Mr Park should not wish to share this alleged material with me"
@Kheredine@Kheredine2018
@spfl chairman on @DundeeFC vote: "We've had a number of conversations with the (club) chairman over the weekend in which he reiterated the club had not yet voted on the SPFL resolution. The SPFL has proceeded on the basis of the unequivocal instruction received at 6pm Friday"
@spfl chairman on money to clubs: "For the Board to be able to authorise end-of-season fee payments to clubs (£9.3million gross), final league placings MUST be determined. Those…suggesting..SPFL may make such payments, without a line being drawn under (the) season are wrong"
@Kheredine @Kheredine2018
@spfl says 'missing' @DundeeFC vote slip (voting 'No') gets to them AFTER Dundee wrote to them saying "any attempted vote from club should NOT be considered as cast". The plot thickens significantly. Vote is 'cast' – vote doesnt arrive – 'dont count our vote' – vote arrives?
@Kheredine
@Kheredine2018
·
16m
. @spfl
chairman on @RangersFC
claims: “I wrote to Mr Park on Saturday…requesting any material to support these allegations. I regret to inform you that..I have received nothing..(it’s) difficult to understand why Mr Park should not wish to share this alleged material with me”
……..
I see easyJambo is ahead of me.
Full text
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 15:48
@spfl chairman on money to clubs: “For the Board to be able to authorise end-of-season fee payments to clubs (£9.3million gross), final league placings MUST be determined. Those…suggesting..SPFL may make such payments, without a line being drawn under (the) season are wrong”
===============================
People in charge of paying out c£9m want to do it subject to the rules. Rather than just paying it out as loans, in advance, of a season which people are trying to get invalidated.
Who do these people think they are. Rangers have spoken, just get on with it FFS.
Question for the SPFL and SFA.
Will you seek to sanction Douglas Park on a "Bringing the game into disrepute" charge?
This latest crisis in Scottish football has certainly galvanised this particular online community based on the comments and concomitant TU’s and TD’s.
FWIW it seems to me that it once again exposes the weakness of the Scottish structure in that there are 3 main parts to it. The SFA, the SPFL and the club’s all co-exist in what is essentially a political arrangement and three way structures tend to be inherently unstable in politics. Many things will change post virus and perhaps Scottish football will change too.
A couple of earlier posts have speculated if CFC should be making a statement. Again fwiw, why bother ? Their vote has been cast, anything further would fuel the paranoia in certain quarters that Peter Lawwell’s unseen hand is pulling the strings once more.
Homunculus 12th April 2020 at 15:56
People in charge of paying out c£9m want to do it subject to the rules. Rather than just paying it out as loans, in advance, of a season which people are trying to get invalidated.
==============================
I don’t believe that it is as black and white as that. As a “members organisation”, those members can effectively vote to change anything they want, subject to the specific voting requirements of any resolution.
e.g. Motion: The Clubs agree that on medical and government advice it will not be possible to complete fixtures for season 2019/20, prior to the, as yet undecided, start of season 2020/21. We therefore agree to end the SPFL league season at this point, and distribute funds to clubs on the basis of current league positions/PPG averages. Further discussions will follow over the next X weeks regarding the award of titles / UEFA places / promotion / relegation / play offs / reconstruction / pyramid involvement.
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 15:57
Question for the SPFL and SFA.
Will you seek to sanction Douglas Park on a "Bringing the game into disrepute" charge?
=================
Look at some of the nonsense they have ignored from various People in charge at Ibrox since 2012, so I doubt it.
However, taking Murdoch MacLennan's letter at face value, perhaps it's time for them to demand a retraction and an apology from Rangers, and if it is not forthcoming to tell Rangers they will discuss it in the Court of Session.
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 16:08
I did not mean to suggest for a second that the rules couldn't be changed. Just that people need to stick to them or change them. If you want to change them you do it via the proper method.
That is exactly what Rangers tried to do, and it was rejected by the SPFL, they claim on the advice of a QC.
Re your suggestion, can I highlight this one part (and I know you just threw it together to illustrate the point) "We therefore agree to end the SPFL league season at this point …"
Based on the current rules Celtic would be champions, as the champion is named when the season finishes, there is no mention of the number of games.
The resolution would have to specifically say that the season wasn't finishing but the "prize money" would be paid out anyway. I doubt that would be effective for this season. As I said before, it is not in my opinion tenable to change the rules of a competition during that competition.
If people want prize money paid out then finish the season. That is what the SPFL were trying to do (for the lower divisions). We all know that they would have done it at a later date for the Premiership, there is little chance the games are getting played.
Sorry if behind the curve on this but can someone tell me when Premiership teams would get their share of the prize money if the resolution was passed?
Do they have to wait until a final agrred decision has been made on final placing or the remaining games have been played?
Rangers Statement to @STVRaman
A spokesman for Rangers advised that Rangers Company secretary, James Blair, has had several email exchanges with the SPFL legal adviser, Rod McKenzie. Remarkably, we have learned from an email received from Mr McKenzie that our proposed resolution is deemed unnecessary because the SPFL board already has the authority to provide loans to member clubs which can be exercised by the SPFL at any time. The Inverness CEO, Scot Gardiner, confirmed on national radio yesterday that SPFL representatives made it clear on several conference calls that it was necessary to approve the SPFL resolution in order to release funds which would relieve the financial hardship being experienced by many clubs.
Member clubs will be shocked to learn this is not the case and any club facing short term financial difficulties should request a loan from the SPFL immediately. Our resolution was never intended to release end of season fee payments but instead to provide loans as an advance on such payments. It is now apparent that this is already within the power of the SPFL. This provides further evidence that an independent investigation is urgently required.
END
wottpi 12th April 2020 at 16:20
Sorry if behind the curve on this but can someone tell me when Premiership teams would get their share of the prize money if the resolution was passed?
Do they have to wait until a final agrred decision has been made on final placing or the remaining games have been played?
=================================
Nothing to the Premiership clubs yet.
The SPFL proposal, as accepted 10-2 by the Premiership clubs, but still pending approval by Chamionship club, would have handed authority to the SPFL Board to make that determination when it was appropriate, e.g. after the next UEFA meeting on 23 April.
It is anticipated that it would follow the same arrangement as that proposed for tiers 2-4.
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 16:27
I was under the impression the the SPFL board already had the authority to finish the league, and as such pay out the prize money.
"Season means the period of the year commencing on the date of the first League Match in a Season and ending on the date of the last League Match in the same Season or otherwise as determined by the Board and which excludes the Close Season"
I believe they wanted to effectively close the season for the lower divisions, whilst actually keeping it open, as UEFA requested.
Homunculus 12th April 2020 at 15:38
………
That is a very clear post, and good for anyone trying to understand what is going on.
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 16:22
Rangers Statement to @STVRaman
EDIT
..SPFL board already has the authority to provide loans to member clubs which can be exercised by the SPFL at any time.
It must come as some relief to TRFC then that lesser lights can keep them on .Of course TRFC will have no need now to pursue early payout of prize money.
Homunculus 12th April 2020 at 16:40
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 16:27
I was under the impression the the SPFL board already had the authority to finish the league, and as such pay out the prize money.
“Season means the period of the year commencing on the date of the first League Match in a Season and ending on the date of the last League Match in the same Season or otherwise as determined by the Board and which excludes the Close Season”
I believe they wanted to effectively close the season for the lower divisions, whilst actually keeping it open, as UEFA requested.
================================
I think that is correct, but I’d be pretty sure that the Board didn’t want to be seen to be acting unilaterally, so went for the members vote route.
The big question for me remains. Who on the SPFL Board was pushing for all the other bits (relegation / promotion/ play offs) to be added to the resolution at this point and for what reason(s)?
Thanks EJ.
Still very confusing as the SPFL is now one organisation unlike the old SPL & SFL days.
I would have thought it should be all or nothing.
Having different conditions for the different divisions doesn’t seem, IMHO, to be consistent if final positions must be resolved before layouts.
A lengthy statement from Ann Budge
https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/chairmans-update-12-april-2020
Extract from it.
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 16:49
I think it was simpler than that.
They have the facility to finish the league (the SPFL) but they didn't want to do that, because of the UEFA thing.
So they went to the members to ask for permission to finish the lower three divisions, but leave the top one going. I don't think that was ever envisaged. Bearing in mind that up until fairly recently there was the SPL and the SFL. Two different leagues.
I think they went to the member clubs with a new resolution because they had to, or just shut the whole league down.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52262072https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52262072
The SPFL tried to “unduly influence the outcome of the vote” by insisting their resolution had to be passed in order to release funds to clubs, says Hearts chair Ann Budge.
And Budge confirmed that Hearts will propose league construction to ensure “no club is financially penalised”.
Hearts supported Rangers’ counter resolution, the progress of which Budge claims was held up by the league.
She says it is “hugely disappointing” the matter was not properly addressed.
“If the SPFL genuinely wanted to work with member clubs to find a solution to the matter of releasing funds they could and should have reverted both more timeously and more helpfully,” Budge added.
More to follow.
I know ALL clubs are experiencing a cut-off of their main revenue stream, i.e. the fans, but what this wee bun-fight has highlighted, is how reliant they are on prize money, and what happens when it is not forthcoming.
The first item on the agenda when football resumes should be Financial Fair Play.
I read something yesterday that said as many as 20 of the 42 senior clubs in Scotland may not survive the current crisis. It brought this thought to mind…
In 2012 Dundee FC was the principal beneficiary when an SPL member club went out of business.
Could Dundee, ICT and Patrick Thistle benefit if a delay in awarding prize money forced other clubs into the hands of insolvency practitioners?
Asking for a friend.
Following on Ann Budge's statement I can see this heading to the Courts. That is not helpful except to enrich the legal profession.
My earlier suggestion was received negatively but in the circumstances I repeat it (with some additions) – with regard to next steps, how about :
1. The existing resolution is withdrawn and voting cancelled. (Or a motion raised to set it aside and that is then voted on – I appreciate this could fall but if that is the case then the game's a bogey)
2. A new simple resolution is put forward offering immediate distribution of 75% of the prize money with the balance on the eventual calling of the leagues. (If as it seems it is already within the power of the SPFL to make a loan then make the distribution through loans that are automatically repayable by offsetting against whatever prize money eventually becomes due)
3. A representative task force immediately set up to discuss reconstruction options with proposals being put forward for consideration within one month. (With proper consideration of and engagement with all stakeholders)
4. Calling of the leagues to be reviewed at the end of April. (With some of the immediate financial pressure off let's see how things look in a couple of weeks – this can be a regular review every four weeks until UEFA or reality intrudes)
Scottish Football needs proper leadership to get out of this mess.
I wonder if it’s more simple than that HP. Budge’s statement would seem to infer that the Thistle Thistle Dundee pact (for want of a better word) was common knowledge. Common in so far as knowledge of it was knowledge that the resolution would fail. In voting so late @ 16.52 was Dundee’s simply the latest and crucial bit of the jigsaw. The powers that be, whoever that may be, then got to work on the holder of the last piece. Could it be that that it was Dundee was purely or at least relatively coincidental? It doesn’t absolve the powers that be’s action(s) of course, nor does it give us any insight into their primary motivation.
Please also pass onto your friend that I cannot speak for Partick or Dundee but I’d be monumentally surprised if Caley thought they’d be last man standing in any financial game of billy big balls.
Redlichtie,
can I add as an addendum to your resolution.
can someone give us a straight answer at the outset of your month long considerations, the real answer, not what certain parties feel, perceive or even want the answer to be, as to whether Sky’s new contract in August would apply to a reconstructed set up or not?
The SEVCO statements are getting more deranged by the day. Smacks of their desperation to be seen as the premier club in Scotland.
Whatever happens in the vote, nothing will happen until UEFA declare their preferences on this season as otherwise they could withdraw permission for any club and indeed the national team to take part in their competitions. Only a moron would risk that.
Seems like they are desperate for a null and void season to hide their blushes for their performances on the pitch, at the moment they don’t even have one of those.
Talk of league reconstruction is a squirrel to spare the blushes of teams that ought to have done better with the resources they have.
The SPFL should charge SEVCO with bringing the game into disrepute. I doubt they have the balls.
wottpi12th April 2020 at 16:52
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Thanks EJ.
Still very confusing as the SPFL is now one organisation unlike the old SPL & SFL days.
I would have thought it should be all or nothing.
Having different conditions for the different divisions doesn’t seem, IMHO, to be consistent if final positions must be resolved before layouts.
,………….
I think you have hit on the point that most people are missing.
The SPFL board can, within the current rules, close the entire league down finalise positions, declare champions and make its determination on which clubs are promoted and relegated.
It is not completely certain that the current rules permit the board to make those calls on a per division basis. It is arguable either way, I think.
The resolution it has presented seeks to overcome any doubt. It has effectively asked the clubs to explicitly agree that the lower divisions are treated as at season end, but keeps it open for the premiership.
This gives the lower tiers immediate access to SPFL prize money and keeps the SPFL in line with UEFA's wish that the top leagues keep open the option of resuming the current season.
Of course, this means the premiership clubs still have to wait for their prize money.
Smugas 12th April 2020 at 18:16
Redlichtie,
can I add as an addendum to your resolution.
can someone give us a straight answer at the outset of your month long considerations, the real answer, not what certain parties feel, perceive or even want the answer to be, as to whether Sky’s new contract in August would apply to a reconstructed set up or not?
=====================================
Sky will keep the contract but will probably want to renegotiate the number of games they cover, partly in lieu of an increased number of teams (if applicable), but also to make up for the shortfall this season and any delayed start next season. They may also seek to provide coverage of games behind closed doors if that eventuality happens.
redlichtie 12th April 2020 at 18:07
Here's a simpler solution.
Declare the league over (there is only one league)
Pay out all of the prize money
No vote required.
I think there will be clauses pertaining to the trending 'force majeur' in the SPFL/Sky deal. Both parties will need to excercise a certain amount of pragmatism and I don't see it being of utmost concern at the moment.All media rights will undoubtedly take a hit the world over.
https://twitter.com/Sean_FTB/status/1249359532763086848?s=20
Did TRFC ask for loans or the early release of prize money? They themselves seem confused.
Lie and deny.
redlichtie 12th April 2020 at 18:07 2.
A new simple resolution is put forward offering immediate distribution of 75% of the prize money with the balance on the eventual calling of the leagues. (If as it seems it is already within the power of the SPFL to make a loan then make the distribution through loans that are automatically repayable by offsetting against whatever prize money eventually becomes due)
===========================================
WRT point 2 Red, that wouldn't be possible. For any prize monies to be awarded, the league must be declared and positions finalised. That may be likely to happen at some stage, but is by no means guaranteed. (N & V).
As such some other form of security would be required. I doubt the SPFL would accept being left holding multiple empty stadiums should the worst happen. Basically it would need to be something a bank would happily accept.
Insurance companies doing what insurance companies do, find some reason not to pay out on a policy.
An extract from a statement by East Fife.
It’s good that we are all talking constructively about this. If I might respond in a hopefully similar manner to a couple of points raised.
Homunculus 12th April 2020 at 18:31
Here’s a simpler solution. Declare the league over (there is only one league). Pay out all of the prize money. No vote required.
RL : From what I understand there is a UEFA request not to do this. Clubs are also clearly not united in wanting this for reasons we all understand. Why do something that will just inflame the current situation and potentially lead to legal action that will delay/jeopardise much needed assistance?
===================================================
Corrupt official 12th April 2020 at 18:36
WRT point 2 Red, that wouldn’t be possible. For any prize monies to be awarded, the league must be declared and positions finalised. That may be likely to happen at some stage, but is by no means guaranteed. (N & V).
As such some other form of security would be required. I doubt the SPFL would accept being left holding multiple empty stadiums should the worst happen. Basically it would need to be something a bank would happily accept.
RL : Why can a resolution not be put forward to amend/suspend the relevant rules & regulations to allow a distribution of prize money now? But it actually doesn’t even need that. I was in fact proposing a loan of a sum equivalent to 75% of the prize money, not actual distribution of the prize money.
What other security is required? The loan is effectively secured against prize money due – that link (an offset) should be an implicit part of any loan agreement. BTW I mentioned 75% – it is also surely not beyond the wit of man to come up with a percentage that does not create any meaningful exposure for the SPFL. Heck it might be 80% or even 85%.
Scottish Football needs to make pragmatic compromises to ensure we all get through this challenging period.
Redlichtie/ CO, Agree with what you say, I seem to recall a slight flaw in the TRFC proposition regarding loans on the strength of prize money due. Clubs would 'elect' to pay back the loans when prize money released. That has to be a big no no. The loan would have to be automatically deducted from money due.
redlichtie 12th April 2020 at 18:57
It’s good that we are all taking constructively about this. If I might respond in a hopefully similar manner to a couple of points raised.
Homunculus 12th April 2020 at 18:31
Here’s a simpler solution. Declare the league over (there is only one league). Pay out all of the prize money. No vote required.
———————————————————–
RL : From what I understand there is a UEFA request not to do this.
=======================================================
Which is exactly what I said earlier today.
So the SPFL came up with what is probably next best idea, but they need agreement to do it. Hence proposing a resolution for the memebrs to vote on.
Finish the other three divisions, pay out ALL of the prize money to them based on current positions, and leave the top division / league open.
That way they pay as much money out as possible, payments not loans. Therefore no complications re when / if the loan is going to get paid back, requirement for security etc.
I can genuinely see why some clubs have an issue with this, absolutely. However what is Rangers’ problem with it. The top division would not be finalised and they would still have the chance to play all of the games, win the league and get the CL qualifying place.
jimbo 12th April 2020 at 19:00
redlichtie/ CO, Agree with what you say, I seem to recall a slight flaw in the TRFC proposition regarding loans on the strength of prize money due. Clubs would 'elect' to pay back the loans when prize money released. That has to be a big no no. The loan would have to be automatically deducted from money due.
———————————–
Jimbo – I have pointed to that aspect previously. I have no doubt that the wording was intentional. Just brazen.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Please don't tell me that this whole fiasco was caused by a club being too proud to ask the league for a loan . It cannae be that simple , Captain
Red, maybe I shouldn't have abbreviated N&V, (Null & Void). In the event of such an event, however unlikely, there will be zero prize money to off-set against. Any loans, whatever percentage, delivered on the strength of it, would be as good as down the river.
paddy malarkey 12th April 2020 at 19:12
Please don't tell me that this whole fiasco was caused by a club being too proud to ask the league for a loan . It cannae be that simple , Captain
==================================
Think it was more to do with their incompetence.
The loan idea – whilst not completely impossible – seems to be fraught with difficulty.
For example, what happens if loans are made on current positions and multiple clubs still go into administration before the season is called?
Since the season is still live, points deductions would be automatically applied and league positions altered accordingly. Some clubs might – on the basis of 'unforseen circumstances' – have grounds for appeal, but that process is certainly not straightforward.
Can you imagine the absolute carnage that would ensue – allowing some appeals and dismissing others. The current anger and recriminations would be as nothing if clubs lose prize money they have already spent (as a loan) and/or are relegated when others are 'forgiven' for what appears to be the same offence.
And, of course, some clubs will be expecting additional prize money, which the SPFL will not have.
In my experience, apparently simple solutions are rarely as simple as they first appear.
I listened again to the podcast of Saturday's 'Sportsound'
What I would like to know is:did the BBC phone Gardiner to invite his views, or did he phone the BBC asking for the chance to get his suspicions aired? Was he merely being a stalking horse for TRFC, or being used as support for the two ex-Rangers men and the gombeen man on the 'panel'?
Richard Gordon, cutting off Kenny Miller, merely said 'we are delighted to say we are joined on the line by …'..
Since 2012, of course, anything that Radio Scotland has to say about TRFC is viewed by many with justified suspicion.
And ,of course ,anything said by defenders of the Big Lie is automatically to be discounted, especially any canting, hypocritical expressions of concern for the good of Scottish Football and smaller clubs in danger.
John Clark 12th April 2020 at 19:54
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Sportsound wasn't much better today. Neil McCann and Chick Young, with Rangers statement from yesterday basically being taken as fact. The amount of Rangers minded pundits on that show simply can't be a co-incidence. It has to be by design. There is no other explanation.
shug 12th April 2020 at 20:04
upthehoops 12th April 2020 at 20:14
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I stopped after reading the first paragraph. A "Yes" vote would not have given ICT promotion.
UTH @ 20.14
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Aye and we know who the alligators will be
ej, I take it that is based on the notion that a yes vote would be followed with a possible reconstruction to 14 teams in the Premiership. Hence the writers use of 'probably'.
shug 12th April 2020 at 20:04
I find that highly unlikely.
jimbo 12th April 2020 at 20:37
ej, I take it that is based on the notion that a yes vote would be followed with a possible reconstruction to 14 teams in the Premiership. Hence the writers use of 'probably'.
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Every statement I've seen suggests that the chance of reconstruction following a "Yes" vote is slim as it requires an 11-1 vote by Premiership teams.
Ann Budge said as much in her statement earlier today, but despite that she is proposing a temporary reconstruction for next season.
This is along the lines of sunsport/recordsport understands stuff what's good for the goose and all that can't let the lunatics have it all their own way.
Now just think if this was round the other way the moon howlers would be out in force with petitions and to my mind as likely as the whistle blowers proof.
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 20:22
I stopped after reading the first paragraph. A "Yes" vote would not have given ICT promotion.
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Which is of course your right. As far as I am concerned the allegation in the story has every right to be taken as seriously, or not seriously, as the one Rangers are making. Neither are providing any hard evidence.
With respect to those peddling the Scott Gardner story, I highly doubt it is true, and in any case, this is a direct accusation, based on no evidence whatsoever, that an individual has used his influence at one club to help achieve a favorable outcome on behalf of another. Not an expert, but that sounds to me like an unfounded accusation of criminality, which is actionable.
An allegation has no right to be taken seriously if there is nothing of substance to underpin it, aside from mischief, and a shoehorning of some random thoughts into a pre-prepared narrative.
I like to think we hold ourselves to better standards here.
paddy malarkey 12th April 2020 at 19:12
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Please don’t tell me that this whole fiasco was caused by a club being too proud to ask the league for a loan . It cannae be that simple , Captain
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And with stewart Robinson on the board he would have known he could have asked for a loan, maybe even a quite word in someones ear.
Psssst. any chance of a loan….Cheers.
shug 12th April 2020 at 20:04
'…Further, our senior Celtic source understands…'
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
…that there's nothing to beat a good wind-up!
Highly improbable that an such an alleged act of bribery of that kind would become known so soon after its commission. Someone is having a laugh, I fear.
Big Pink 12th April 2020 at 21:21
To me it is verging on defamation, unless it is true.
You are right to be cautious about this.
I actually had the thought yesterday that only the SFA or SPFL could ever manage the Herculean feat of raising Rangers aloft onto the moral high ground.
Today, I think they have had an empathy nose-bleed, and set about restoring balance 🙂
They have done so successfully With their accusations, refusal (so far) to provide evidence they say have, and now telling straight porkies wrt to their assertion that they never at any time asked for distribution of prize money – just a few days after er, asking for distribution of prize money.
Equilibrium restored?
The sad thing is, their characterisation of the powers that be, irony aside, would not have been out of place in these pages. Strange times.
I won’t go into the fine details of what regulations are in place to either enable or prevent the distribution of funds, mainly because I have never found myself able to understand regulations due to the curious language in which they are drafted.
My ideal solution, if it is allowable, is to get the money to needy clubs without preconditions on ending of competitions, Following that, two simple rules;
Of course it should be that simple, but the halfwits who run our clubs and institutions will have none of that will they?
John Clark
… except it's not at all funny
I remember many years back an SFM poster was always implying something 'nuclear' was about to happen.
Are we there yet?
Scottish Football needs a Sanity Clause – peace needs to break out ASAP for everyone's benefit.
Redlichtie
One of the great sadnesses of the last eight years is that we have become so immune to shock and outrage, I doubt we would ever actually recognise 'nuclear' if it happened.
Or if it did, someone at Ibrox or Hampden would no doubt say, "Haud ma beer"!!!
Big Pink 12th April 2020 at 21:21
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Fair point on Scott Gardner. However, on the board last night we were told by some posters we can't dismiss accusations just because it's Rangers who are making them. However, I see you have covered Rangers behaviour in another post.
Big Pink 12th April 2020 at 21:36
'..the fine details of what regulations are in place to either enable or prevent the distribution of funds..'
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Where are they to be found, BP, as a matter of interest? I've looked quickly through the Articles and Rules of the SPFL and didn't see anything relevant.
And I think it remiss of the SPFL letter just to say 'final league placings MUST be determined' without giving chapter and verse.
I checked in with JJ a moment ago but sadly there were no pearls of wisdom to be had. I’ve now gone beyond the organic Côte du Rhône and progressing into 18 yo Glenfiddich. I must therefore say bonsoir.
At the acknowledged risk of offence, I struggle to fathom how a substantial number of supposedly intelligent football fans such as those posters and readers of this site can fall for the ruse that’s being played out in front of them.
Let’s remember that in recent times our football authorities miraculously managed to conjure out of thin air a myriad of baffling ‘solutions’ which didn’t exist in their rules and regulations. Conditional SFA licence, temporary membership, imperfect but eligible, separate operating company and metaphysical club to name but a few – when it became necessary to pretend Rangers had somehow survived liquidation – it was a done deal under the guise of “unless the board decides otherwise”, all for the sake of money and contracts.
Yet now, when some Scottish clubs are on the very edge of financial oblivion, our football authorities have blatantly attempted to gerrymander their preferred outcome by falsely linking the release of prize money with passing their chosen resolution, one of which six options was openly flaunted like a tart in a miniskirt while the other five were denigrated, and somehow that is alright? Neil Doncaster is mischief making because he does not want to lose the much-prized new-season Sky contract and Doncaster is incapable of re-negotiating a favourable deal. Rod McKenzie is doing what Rod McKenzie does by putting convenient legal obstacles in the way, obstacles that mysteriously vanished in 2012.
Celtic will almost inevitably win the league title, on merit, and Hearts will almost inevitably be relegated, also on merit, although it would be ideal to play for the remaining 24 points if that becomes possible in the remainder of the calendar year. Partick Thistle have even more to gripe about.
Was it Greavsie who used to say football's a funny old game.
Not long ago people on this blog would have given their right arm to see the back of Doncaster,McKenzie and their likes. Mainly for their duplicitous and incompetent ways.
Suddenly, for some, they are honest brokers.
I keep seeing talk about democracy and 85%, or whatever,voting for the resolution. However for the vast majority of the club's in the SPFL it matters not a jot. Their league positions are unlikely to change much and they can cash in their chips now as opposed to seeing if they gain or loose a few quid further down the line.
The resolution was a loaded question to a mainly captive audience.
If Sporting Integrity was the driving force of various blogs, not so long ago, to ensure a new club wasn't placed in a division it didn't deserve to be in, then why the sudden acceptance that other clubs will not be afforded the right rise or fall by their performances on the pitch.
Especially when the same crew are in charge who Turnbull Hutton described as being corrupt, bullies and effectively marked them as threatening blackmailers putting the frighteners on people to get the predetermined result they always sought from the outset.
Deja vu anyone?
Ah well, what do I know?
It would seem that Stewart Robertson remains on the SPFL Board.
I wonder if Doncaster is now checking out his own exit options?
He's done 10+ years as CEO of the SPL/SPFL.
In an earlier article he had mentioned that he thought it was better/safer that his kids were not educated locally, hence his family had returned down south whilst he stayed in Strathaven during the week.
If TRFC is lacking tangible evidence to back up their serious allegations against the SPFL – then they will play the man, in time honoured fashion.
Doncaster could be the fall guy – and negotiate a suitably hefty pay off – and leave the interminable SPFL squabbling behind him.
(Not that he deserves a penny though, due to his dodgy behaviour in 2012 and invisible leadership throughout.)
Seems to me, that if the league is called, and Sevco get paid out for 2nd spot, it may be on the wrong side of administration for their liking…..Creditors would sook it all up, and there would be hee-haw in the tank to finance a 3rd Rangers IPO……..And they wouldn't be able to blame the SPFL for "Hoddin' back wur money we wur pure entitled tae"…….That would give Third Rangers a rallying call and the PR upper hand in negotiations for re-entry……A ten point start or something.
Bet the new surface is being done on tick too.
It will be something mental like that.
I can guarantee however, that whatever it is they're up to, it is not philanthropic in nature.
wottpi 12th April 2020 at 22:22
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The same crew may have learned a lesson in 2012 and tried to do things by the book, the problem being is that they are not very good at it
Highlander 12th April 2020 at 22:12
Yet now, when some Scottish clubs are on the very edge of financial oblivion, our football authorities have blatantly attempted to gerrymander their preferred outcome by falsely linking the release of prize money with passing their chosen resolution, one of which six options was openly flaunted like a tart in a miniskirt while the other five were denigrated, and somehow that is alright?
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Agree 100% Highlander.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Highlander 12th April 2020 at 22:12
Let’s remember that in recent times our football authorities miraculously managed to conjure out of thin air a myriad of baffling ‘solutions’ which didn’t exist in their rules and regulations.
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I think that it entirely possible that the SPFL Board will announce that they have found a means whereby they can distribute funds (payments, fees, advances, loans or whatever) to clubs without doing anything else.
Before the funds are actually handed over, every club CEO will be required to say "all hail Kim Jong Doncaster"
Seriously though, the reference to payment to clubs is in the AoA, but refers back to the rules
The Board has the power to determine the end of a season and it doesn't look like it needs a vote of members to do so.
wottpi 12th April 2020 at 22:22
Was it Greavsie who used to say football's a funny old game.
Not long ago people on this blog would have given their right arm to see the back of Doncaster,McKenzie and their likes. Mainly for their duplicitous and incompetent ways.
Suddenly, for some, they are honest brokers.
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What is it they say on here, play the ball not the man.
Tomorrow's Herald back page seems an appropriate point to sign out for the night.
easyJambo 12th April 2020 at 23:07
Tomorrow's Herald back page seems an appropriate point to sign out for the night.
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I saw that earlier, and fair play to them. Pretty much sums it all up.
Goodnight all, take care and stay safe. If anyone can't see that Rangers only aim is to cancel the season completely…well, they are perfectly entitled to think otherwise!
I hope that clarifies matters.
Custer One
Given some of the detail provided in the latest Hearts statement I think you are probably right.
Couldn't run a piss up etc etc even if trying to do 'the right thing'.
redlichtie 12th April 2020 at 21:46
There was a contributor called Barcabhoy / @Barcabhoy1 who would hint at a “nuclear” event, back in the day.