The Covid 19 Pandemic is a truly serious game-changing situation for us all.
We are all currently staring into a future with no declared road map exit of
how we might move back to normality and the certainty of disruption now and
long into the future.
Against the background of lockdown to curb the virus spread we have all run smack bang into economic and social chaos.
We have gone from normality into unheard of times virtually overnight and with horrendous economic consequences coming every which way into the future.
Football is not important in the greater scheme of things but still has issues that need attention and urgently because it affects people’s lives.
This Week’s SPFL Plan to Move On
The SPFL are simply the members association who run our leagues on a “for the members, by the members, for the members” kind of way in theory.
For reasons known to them they collectively took the decision to start to draw an end to season 2019 – 2020 with its Covid 19 uncertainty.
This was probably to allow them and all their members (our clubs) to at least
start to plan for the future when income streams will return.
From speaking to those involved from the club side and reading and hearing more at a truly astonishing pace since Wednesday 8th of April, just 3 day ago, the SPFL decided in their wisdom that the best solution was to conflate two particular issues.
To back their case quite forcibly they also provided a dossier of over 100 pages of supportive material. All good bedtime reading for our club’s boards I have been told, but i haven’t seen it.
The issues the SPFL decided to conflate were to ‘pro-rata’ all games played so far this season so they could equalise and close the Championship and Leagues 1 and 2, with the Premiership going the same way if it became clear that fixtures could not be completed.
If and only if the motion was agreed by the members then the end of season prize money would be forthcoming from the SPFL bank almost immediately.
Money desperately needed by some members. A real lifeline in troubled times.
There was also another possible wee carrot dangled.
This might have been of a sort of half-hearted agreement to look at re-organisation of Scottish Football. This because despite the dossier urging clubs to vote yes, the SPFL knew some clubs would not be happy with their proposals and would not agree.
In the Real World of Challenged and Stressed Football Clubs
The SPFL conflation of “do this or no money” meant things like.
The title would be handed to Celtic eventually if Premier Clubs then followed suit, despite Rangers having a mathematical, albeit statistically unlikely, chance of catching their rivals.
Hearts would be relegated despite having enough games to catch their nearest rivals and stay safe possibly by a play off (if they hadn’t already been cancelled).
Partick Thistle would be relegated because they failed to play one league game while playing another SPFL competition and also had a bunch of games left to save themselves.
Stranraer would go down despite being proven late season successful relegation fighters.
Brora (declared Highland Champions) and Kelty (current leaders in Lowland League, by a bawhair over Bonnyrigg) would have no play off with a likely game against Brechin or whoever was going to be bottom of the SPFL2 league.
And these are just the tip of what football chiefs I’ve spoken with have termed an ill-considered iceberg of matters arising from a hapless attempt to bring some certainty to the SPFL membership.
72 Hours of Mayhem as Peter was Played Against Paul
People are interconnected today and from the moment clubs were pushed into a corner they discussed it together and in depth.
They all know who voted how why and when and have WhatsApp records too.
They all feel they could have done it better. I can’t try to sum up the sheer enormity and quantity of what has happened since Wednesday night but after I had penned a piece for SFM on Friday with suggestions that there was a civil war brewing that is just indeed what happened.
Every club effectively had a moral and economic choice and sometimes they were conflicting.
Friday was too close to call
I was in a few communication loops sitting at home on Friday afternoon as the vote unfolded.
I had been warned how close it was going to be and it was fascinating with first Inverness seen as the potentially key vote then an acceptance just before 5 that the whole thing had failed.
Then, 5.30ish, a different and quite hopeful view came out that after the vote had been seen to have failed that a 14, 14, 14, compromised was likely. Sense seemed to be prevailing. Then later and very late in the day a view that 1 vote (Dundee) had still to come and was in effect now the casting vote with all the power that casting votes carry.
Since then we have first seen Dundee castigated in the press and by unthinking media pundits as the villains for holding everything up.
(But that’s now old news).
Today (Sat 11th April), ICT Chief Executive Scott Gardiner was on BBC Sportsound alongside Richard Gordon, Michael Stewart Tom English, Kenny Miller and later on Willie Miller. It wasn’t a normal filler show in a period with no football.
It was truly amazing with some hard facts and honest insights. Uncommonly so.
I should have been forewarned after one well know football finance insider had tweeted last night (Fri) ahead of the curve that “Dundee will have earned some concession and will now change their vote” or words to that effect.
Wow he was ahead of the tsunami that burst this afternoon. If you haven’t heard BBC Sportsound at 2 pm today then the first hour or so is unmissable.
Since then matters have gone on apace we have now heard that Douglas Park, interim Chairman of Rangers, wants the SPFL CEO Neil Doncaster and legal counsel Rod Mackenzie (Rangers links) to stand down ahead of an independent inquiry.
So less than a day after a yet to be agreed vote outcome and genuine internecine war is brewing and exploding with Mr Parks claiming he has damning information from a whistleblower.
In turn he has been asked by the current SPFL Chairman Murdoch MacLennan to substantiate his “very serious accusations”. .
So Who Scored the Own Goal and What Can We Do About It?
As of now I actually don’t care who did what and when.
Stuff has happened and in the fullness of time we can look at how it happened and what we can do to avoid it into the future.
Today we need to move forward and that needs leadership.
Here is a 5 point roadmap.
Ditch this divisive plan
It doesn’t matter how Dundee vote just consign all this crap to history.
Pay all the monies due
This week no strings and if that needs a vote then vote on that and that alone.
Agree what happens and how to end the season
Scottish Football Supporters Association say this must include no relegation and pyramid winners should be included. Don’t penalise anyone at this time.
And an interim plan would be fine of three leagues like nearly got agreed for 20 minutes on Friday.
Take time
End the season properly and fairly and plan for the future to reinvigorate our game for the greater good. The world has changed but we haven’t.
Involve all stakeholders especially the fans
This should all be on the record and transparent.
The Time To Stop The War is Now
Wottpi @ 00.23
Regarding the 2 days versus 28 days argument, I wonder if those complaining about the 'coercion' checked the (current) SPFL Rule Book. If they did, and objected anyway, then that's at the very least petty. If not, then their argument is weakened.
I'm sorry that I may be a little behind in terms of where UEFA stands in relation to the early termination of leagues and the effect of that on the entitlement of relevant clubs to participate in the next CL/EL competitions.
If there is any uncertainty on that point, it adds an extra angst to the decision-making.
Does anyone know what the definitive position is?
JC,
As I understand it, UEFA have asked national associations and leagues to hold off until 25th April before calling their seasons.
The Belgian league has postponed its ratifying meeting until the 24th.
In terms of UEFA's current thinking, this may be a useful insight.
https://www.givemesport.com/1561135-uefa-president-says-liverpool-will-be-crowned-english-champions-one-way-or-another
EJ
Was there not some debate when details of the last interim payments were made public?
I believe Celtic, TRFC and Motherwell received significantly higher payments than the remainder because those three, on their current points totals, were guaranteed to finish in the top six.
Edit – just seen your later post 🙂
Mrs C has commandeered the pc and I don't know how to use this phone to copy and paste etc, so thank you HP foryour post of 10.27
I had faint memories of Ceferin having said the very opposite some time ago ( about Liverpool's situation).
And incidentally, mention of Ceferin reminds me he is another chap who does not reply to emails sent to him personally! no gentleman! and quite possibly uses his knife to eat peas!
HirsutePursuit 15th April 2020 at 10:27
Not wanting to be cheeky but awarding titles to teams well out in front is not really the issue.
I would like to think true football fans would agreed a team cruising at the top deserve it.
The issue for all leagues here and abroad is how to best deal with the situation where there are tight situations at the top (La Liga & Eredivisie), tight promotion & relegation situations throughout their divisions and also close battles for euro spots in their top divisions for CL or EL places.
Should it be done in a thoughtful constructive manner with fairness and sporting integrity in mind or, as seems to be the case here, 'tough luck, suck it up and get on with it'.
I’m sorry, but folk can quote as many rules and regulations as they like to explain why the SPFL can’t issue prize money without declaring the season complete, but both the UK and Scottish governments managed to introduce emergency legislation in the space of a few short days in light of the unprecedented coronavirus crisis. The SPFL’S obstinacy is based on an unwillingness, not an inability to do the right thing. They are duping us into believing their hands are tied when in reality their own inaction is to blame.
If the SPFL board genuinely wanted to help the clubs financially, it would call an EGM to facilitate the disbursement of 75-80% of the unpaid prize money based on current positions, a process that could be complete in very short order, but instead it is holding a gun to clubs’ heads and threatening them that no money can be released without passing the SPFL’s own resolution.
For the hard of thinking, the SPFL has deliberately bundled together the release of much needed money to accepting its resolution. It’s my way or the highway. To my mind, their actions in bludgeoning their way to having their resolution accepted go beyond coercion and border corruption.
It is also grossly unfair to call the season over and relegate Partick Thistle for example AT THIS POINT IN TIME when they are only two points behind QotS, having played a game less.
Current expectations that no further games will be played this season may well transpire to be accurate, but at this point in time they are based entirely on guesswork.
Celtic will still win their ninth consecutive title once this is all over, whether that is through completing their remaining games or reaching a point where the season cannot be completed, so I really fail to see why their support is getting so agitated about declaring the season over, especially since Rangers’* ‘null & void’ option is a complete non-starter because it would result in no prize money being able to be awarded.
Surely sporting integrity dictates that every chance should be given to completing the current season IF IT BECOMES SAFE TO DO SO and giving this precedence over next season, regardless of Doncaster’s apparent inability/unwillingness to re-negotiate a favourable deal with broadcasters, something he should already be working hard on, or resigning if he’s too incompetent to do so.
I can't understand what The Rangers are trying to achieve with this "rebellion" they are leading. The general opinion seems to be that they want the second place prize money but Celtic can't be declared winners of the League. Surely they can't be second then as Aberdeen or Motherwell could catch them if the season were completed. I think another poster claimed that they want their cake and eat it.
If their aim is to stop 9 in a row well how does that work? If no winner is declared or a null and void situation is arrived at then all it means is that if Celtic win the league the next season it would still be 9 in a row as nobody else would have won it between 8 and 9.
Highlander,
I get your argument and agree with most of – since my own red line here is that no club should be punished by relegation if the outcome is not yet certain. I believe that is a pragmatic course of action, and one that should have been wrapped into the resolution.
What I don’t agree with is your assertion that the SPFL board are unwilling to do the right thing. I think they have been ham-fisted in their approach, but I don’t see any skullduggery – just incompetence.
If HP’s interpretation of the rules is correct, it may be that they are guilty of not taking on board the responsibility they already have by making the declaration themselves. Thus demonstrating indecisiveness.
You may be correct that the arrogance that is apparent among football directors would encourage them to take an entrenched position in the face of dissent, but I really don’t believe that was the original intent.
In fact, if I was a Hearts or PT or Stranraer fan, I might well take the view that the whole thing was engineered to ruin my club, because that resolution aside from dishing out money asap, only imposes harm on those three clubs, and confers no additional benefit on others as far as I can see.
Highlander 15th April 2020 at 11:32
========================
I absolutely agree with you on the relegation thing. It is very unfair. Both Hearts and Partick in my view would have had every chance of avoiding the drop in their current situations.
In terms of where this particular Celtic supporter is concerned I wish we could somehow play out the league, but how and when? What 'agitates' (using your word) me about the season being called early is this. Firstly I think after my club surged into the new year while Rangers faltered we were going to win the league had it gone the distance. Rangers, and many elements of the media though have seized on a worldwide crisis to try and manipulate the situation for their own ends. As we know if something is said often enough it eventually gets generally accepted as the truth, especially in Scottish football. Here are two quotes already in the past few days.
Firstly from Hearts fan Ewan Murray in the Guardian: '…That Rangers don’t want Celtic’s retention of the trophy nailed down is as obvious as Tuesday follows Monday; it may be that a sufficient racket has been made for any title celebrations to be laughed off by all external observers anyway.'
Then this from Rangers fan Matthew Lindsay in the Herald: '…But if Celtic are awarded the Premiership at the end of this whole sorry saga the accusations that foul play was afoot will not die down quickly if at all. It will leave an indelible stain on this particular piece of silverware.'
It is not difficult to see that Rangers efforts are having an impact. Their desired voiding of the season might not happen, but they are clearly getting the message across in terms of discrediting Celtic, who have done nothing wrong at all.
So as you and the rest of the Hearts fans rightly call foul about the relegation issue through no fault of your club, I am calling foul on my clubs achievements being demeaned by a club who have already failed on three domestic fronts this season, and who are being ably backed by a media who need little encouragement.
Highlander.
To my simple mind, if the current articles and rules allow the immediate disbursement of funds, we should use those measures to release those funds.
That gives the greatest number of clubs the chance of survival. Surely we need to focus on keeping the patient(s) alive before planning a care plan!
Certainly, it is unfortunate that a team finishing in last position gets relegated. It is unfortunate that teams in that position do not have the chance to work their way out of that position. I do, genuinely, have sympathy for those teams.
But, in the current circumstances there is no prospect of playing out the remaining schedule. Do you think the suggested method for determining final positions is grossly unfair? Is it truly outrageous that a team in last position gets relegated after final positions have been confirmed?
Is there not a greater level of unfairness in a handful of clubs creating a roadblock to the release of much needed funds in persuit of their own personal ambitions?
By the way, I have long been an advocate for a sixteen team premiership. I think that would be the optimum number – on a purely sporting basis.
However, the challenge in any immediate attempt to change the composition of the league divisions is that a TV contract has already been signed for next season.
Many, in any case, would fundamentally disagree that league reconstruction would be a positive move.
Can those problems be overcome? Perhaps, but we shouldn’t pretend that a solution is days or even weeks away.
In the meantime, clubs will die.
Artificially conflating the finalising of league positions (leading to the release of fee payments) with the question of league reconstruction increases the risk that clubs will die.
I think that is the ultimate in unfairness.
Highlander 15th April 2020 at 11:32
I think I can speak on behalf of most Celtic fans in as much as we would also rather see the league played out, but are realistic enough to see that chance as slim to nothing. I am not saying we are bullet-proof but we have no skin in the, "Where we end up next season", bunfight. …..
Clubs are not moaning about this season's pay-out if we're honest, but what cash they will have access to next season….There are clubs need it now.
In the meantime, some clubs will suffer, and some won't make it through till then, due to a bunfight that may be for nought. Is that fair?. Celtic fans want the league called to prevent that. Our only skin is making sure there is a league to get back to. This virus really might be that serious. There may not even be a next season !…It may be truncated, who knows?…There may only be 20 clubs left, 30, to reconstruct with, who knows?
The SPFL need plan A, B, and C, in place as soon as poss. It is being delayed,but not by anything Celtic, or it's fans are doing.
For "Irate", don't be looking at Celtic, or its fans, who are forsaking, potentially, an end to a season that will never be topped…. Be looking at those chucking buns. Be looking at those bringing the game into disrepute. Be looking at the SMSM and it's drivers.
If anything, we are only guilty of seeing the bigger picture.
BP @ 11.59
I take that point and also generally agree. But what they haven’t done is given any reason for their unwillingness/general incompetence.
Its not difficult to say “we did it this way because….”. We’re big boys and girls. If their justification is something unpalatable (the sky deal is never far from the surface) we will cope. We will base our future purchasing decisions accordingly. And if one counters the other, well, there’s the real source of the problem.
We all said it in 2012. Whatever they did from them on was still unlikely to change. Cest la vie complete with Gallic shrug etc etc. But it would be utterly transparent and clearly artificial. If some idiot somewhere has decided that if they recreated a helicopter competition finale that everything else would somehow be miraculously swept away then said idiot has, never has, any business either being in the position he’s in.
Smugas
Correct. I think that's where the arrogance kicks in.
"Who the feck are youse to question us?"
Refusing to defend the decision but defending their right to make it.
Wottpi @ 11.26
I think you have hit the nail on the head there . The difficult decisions facing us is'nt whether Celtic should be awarded the title ( any reasonable fan would agree that they more than likely were gonna win ) but the problem is the relegation issue . That the SPFL were'nt forward thinking enough to see that this would be a problem just underlines how amateur this organisation really is . I heard that Dungcaster is on around £300K per annum ? If this is true it is outrageous , no way should he be getting paid that sort of money. Anyhoo In my humble opinion it must be a league of 14 next season . Hearts have been rotten all season but they do have a genuine chance of making a play off so I think they deserve a reprieve and if they do I hope Anne Budge learns the true meaning of the word "integrity " ..Anne , Rangers will never be a freind to you , Rangers would bring the whole of Scottish football down if it meant Celtic not getting this title.
A 14 team league for at least 1 season til hopefully a bit of normality returns to football. Play each other twice home and away , then split , top 7 and bottom 7 and play again twice home and away . This would also do away with the nonsense of possibly playing a team once at home and 3 times away under the current set up. Only problem I see is if the Sky deal rests on 4 Glasgow derbies , there is no guarantee that Rangers would make the top 7 when considering their financial troubles but a competent organisation surely would nt agree that there had to be 4 Glasgow derbies…….would they
Latest Dundee statement
Highlander 15th April 2020 at 11:32
===========================
I'm not really sure where you are getting that Celtic supporters are getting "so agitated about declaring the season over," You must be speaking to different people from me.
Every Celtic supporter I know feels exactly the same way as you. If the games can be played safely, even if it's behind closed doors, then that is the desired solution. Even better if the support can be there, but that would really take some turnaround.
And if it transpires that the games are played, and someone else wins the league then so be it. The best team over the course of the season wins the league. Everyone is having to deal with these circumstances and difficult times.
So the actions of the Championship clubs were regrettable (although Dundee was a willing partner)
Yet two Premiership clubs modified their positions "from the understanding we had the day prior"
So Dundee are complaining about the collusion they were party to in the championship, but were also party to some collusion with Premiership clubs.
UTH
…and don’t blame any of this on CFC/Peter Lawell – the club is not represented on the SPFL Board.
Plus …wtf is going on with Dundee – latest statement that they confirm they intended voting against proposal, but no clarification wrt what actually happened to their vote! They seem to be trying to squirm out of that one.
I still think, much to my disappointment, that the season will not be played out, and CFC declared worthy champions – that is in any reasonable argument of probability – same for Liverpool (SEVCO, its ‘cheerleaders, and the SMSM notwithstanding).
If they’e not, then you’ll hear from Mr Lawell.
btw, we are far from finished with statements, counter statements, amended resolutions , possible injunctions, whilst QCs, Lawyers (the real financial winners in this shambles) roll up to collect their hefty fees from clubs – some of the about to go to the wall.
Anybody else think that Dundee statement is missing a paragraph off the bottom. “And so to conclude…”
HirsutePursuit 15th April 2020 at 12:36
To my simple mind, if the current articles and rules allow the immediate disbursement of funds, we should use those measures to release those funds. AGREED
That gives the greatest number of clubs the chance of survival. Surely we need to focus on keeping the patient(s) alive before planning a care plan! AGREED
Certainly, it is unfortunate that a team finishing in last position gets relegated. It is unfortunate that teams in that position do not have the chance to work their way out of that position. I do, genuinely, have sympathy for those teams. DISAGREE – They don’t have to get relegated. There is a choice to be made by clubs agreeing to amend the Articles.
But, in the current circumstances there is no prospect of playing out the remaining schedule. Do you think the suggested method for determining final positions is grossly unfair? NO Is it truly outrageous that a team in last position gets relegated after final positions have been confirmed? YES – I believe that it is “outrageous” for other clubs to vote for another club to be so significantly disadvantaged, while that same vote protects their own status, and that vote is conditional to the distribution of funds.
Is there not a greater level of unfairness in a handful of clubs creating a roadblock to the release of much needed funds in persuit of their own personal ambitions? DISAGREE – as you have suggested previously, it is within the SPFL’s Board’s power to release funds. The unfairness works both ways. It’s called self interest. It is not exclusive to clubs being disadvantaged.
HirsutePursuit 15th April 2020 at 12:36
With the greatest respect, I agree entirely that getting the funds to clubs urgently is the number one priority to prevent clubs going under, but you appear to be accepting the SPFL’s fabrication that doing so requires acceptance of their resolution when you say a handful of clubs are creating a roadblock to those funds.
Whether the SPFL releases funds utilising existing rules/regulations or by urgently drafting emergency ones, the ending of the season is an entirely separate matter which has no bearing on the release of those funds, yet the SPFL board sought to falsely suggest that the much-needed payment was dependent on it. They could still find a way to pay out right now if that was their priority, as it should be.
They wouldn’t even need to wait for John Nelms to pontificate for up to 28 days if they’d not deliberately conflated those two things for their own ends.
However, I will butt out at this point in the debate because I’m even beginning to annoy myself in probably giving the false impression I’m annoyed at posters on here rather than those idiots in the SPFL who couldn’t run a bath.
Full Dundee statement
“If what we achieved in our pause was presented by the spfl in the first instance we would have voted in favour of the proposal.”
So what Dundee may well end up voting “yes” to is different from what was presented to the other 41 clubs.
Also Dundee changed their position as a result of seeing what the SPFL had published after 5pm on Friday about how the voting was going.
It sort of undermines the original vote, does it not?
https://www.sfm.scot/spfl-myopia-flares-into-civil-war/#comment-32373
Not seen much comment from Mr Doncaster, but I was reading some tweets from someone who’d been in liaison with him about introducing domestic FFP to make sure clubs were more resilient. Seems to be that the clubs being in such dire straights is largely due to the clubs being unwilling to even put FFP in the domestic league to a vote. If that’s so then they really are reaping what they sow.
Also, we are sorry to disappoint all of the conspiracy theorists by saying that we were never exposed to any ‘deals’ from either of the Glasgow giants. They both acted, as we would expect, with complete professionalism.
…………………
Fair play Celtic & Partick Thistle.
……….
Unashamedly borrowed;-)
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chairman-douglas-park-demands-21871158?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
…….
Someone is not happy.
wottpi
I think that UEFA will insist on champions being declared in the top leagues so that qualification to its competitions is still seen to be on 'sporting merit'. In these circumstances, it seems highly unlikely that any league would refuse to finalise league positions and prevent its clubs from participating in European campaigns next season.
I don't think UEFA can universally decide on how it will work and the individual Leagues and associations will determine their own methodology.
Personally, I would like the board to make the determination that all outstanding matches are given a scoreline of 1-1 in the Scottish Premiership. That would fulfill the need (if it exists) to account for all 38 scheduled matches.
But, as long as it is fundamentally fair, it doesn't really matter what formula is used. As long as the final positions are determined in a way that UEFA will recognise as having 'sporting merit'.
Some leagues – like the English and Scottish Premierships – the outcome will be clearcut. In others – Spain for example – the final result will be close.
In any league, regardless of the closeness of a final result, the winner will still be recognised as such by UEFA.
Whether the final results are determined on goal difference or a 30 point margin – a winner is a winner.
We really do need to give up on the idea that any further games will be played this season.
Gary Ralston at The DR running with a story that Park is demanding retraction of a quote attribute to the SPFL Chairman McLennan.
It’s from 2017.
It’s in ‘Private Eye’!
Apparently this same quote was raised / questioned after his SPFL appointment back in 2017, so it’s nothing new.
Desperate stuff from Ibrox.
They obviously have nothing else to back up their ‘allegations’ about the SPFL.
Can we take the paragraph below to mean that Dundee now expects clubs to be relegated, but with some sort of additional settlement (kindness?) from all the other clubs, or is it that they are negotiating a restructuring deal that will see three clubs promoted to the Premiership and one relegated?
Highlander, EJ
The SPFL board have a wide range of powers to manage the league competition.
It doesn't have the legal authority to resile from the existing contract with the clubs to make fee payments based on final league positions.
Sure, it can put forward a resolution to change the articles. But, even if such a resolution could be passed (which I think is utter fantasy), the obligation to pay out on the arrangements for this season would remain.
easyJambo15th April 2020 at 14:16
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Can we take the paragraph below to mean that Dundee now expects clubs to be relegated….
………
It is a fairly confused statement overall; but yes, that is also my reading.
Which seems to suggest that Dundee will support the resolution.
But who knows!
According to Raman at STV
https://news.stv.tv/sport/football/spfl-says-football-wont-return-until-august-at-earliest?top
Highlander,
I understand your concern.
The key SPFL personal are rarely on the correct side of any dispute. It makes my skin crawl to support its position on anything.
That said, it is always great to air our thoughts and have those sense checked on here.
Discussion is good as long as we're playing the ball not the man.(c) Homunculus
If Dundee goes on to change their vote to "yes", could the following statement be described as an inducement to change their vote
"If what we achieved in our pause was presented by the SPFL in the first instance we would have voted in favour of the proposal."
Could that be construed as an act of Bribery under Scots Law?
It may be that the SPFL will avoid such accusations by dropping the current resolution and propose a new resolution that meets with Dundee's approval.
Completely off topic.
Has anybody else noticed that no matter who gets asked a question on the tv/radio,
be it reporter, politician, member of the public or pundit, that their reply more times than not starts with the word "SO". Has this always been the case ?
I admit I am watching more television than normal but its beginning to p*** me off.
I also admit I may be going a bit stir crazy.
HS
Higgy’s Shoes, you need to get out more – for no more than 60 minutes daily of course!
So… this will really p!ss you off.
I’ve also noticed in recent times, that many answers also start with;
“I mean…”
Ha!
Higgy's shoes @ 16.05
————————————————-
This SO thing started a while ago (feck knows how it started) but it p***es me off as well HS.
Stevie BC @ 14.13
Apparently this same quote was raised / questioned after his SPFL appointment back in 2017, so it’s nothing new.
————————————————————————
Yes I remember that. Was their any outcome? If the quote is genuine at very best it doesn't look good! I would not be happy if someone in his position made a statement like that about my club.
Well Stevie BC
In which case what will really 'do your nut in' is the number of contestants on Pointless who start there answers with – wait for it ….!
So, ……
Off now to await news of the SPFL meeting due at 5pm – I think!!
Further screenshots of WhatsApp conversations are doing the rounds on t’internet, so consider their provenance. I’d question the spelling of “Scott” Gardiner as I believe he answers to the name of “Scot”, although that could be from one of the other participant’s contact list.
They are from allegedly from Thurdsay and Friday before the vote. Some of the names will be familiar, Ross Morrison is the ICT Chairman and Ross McArthur the Dunfermline Chairman and SPFL Board member
Gretna were loaned the equivalent of their prize money to allow them to complete the season in their admin year
From the Dundee Courier – Breaking News
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/dundee-fc/1268401/dundee-fc-spfl-vote-yes-season/amp/
Dundee have submitted a ‘yes’ vote to the SPFL’s proposals paving the way for Celtic, Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers to be crowned champions.
Courier Sport understands the Dark Blues told Hampden chiefs of their decision this afternoon and are awaiting a response from league bosses.
Should the SPFL board accept Dundee’s vote, the Championship, League One and League Two seasons will immediately be declared on a points per game basis.
The Premiership will remain on hiatus, but could subsequently be called at the SPFL board’s discretion.
Higgy's Shoes, So, I'm glad someone else has noticed that!
I first remember it's usage in the late noughties. I listened to Radio 4 every morning travelling to work. It seemed to be mostly prevalent by academics in reply to a question. It's common place now by anyone and everyone. I think it gives the user a sense of grandeur.
So, it’s explained here…….https://www.dictionary.com/e/sentence-initial-so/
Ewan Murray@mrewanmurray
Confirmation from SPFL that Dundee have, ahem, voted “Yes” should be imminent. An appalling episode all round. Over to Partick Thistle…
SPFL confirm resolution passes. "The SPFL board has also committed to consult on possible league restructuring in time for season 2020/21 around an expanded Premiership model." Ann Budge and Les Gray will lead a task force.
M MacLennan: "There has been talk of voiding the season, making emergency loans and so on, but what has been agreed today is not just the best way forward, it was the only realistic way forward and I now call on all 42 clubs to move forward in a constructive and positive way.”
Should be remembered: only (actual) delay in calling Premiership is Uefa guideline of at least 23 April. They'll do it as soon as they can.
Even by their standards, it's quite something for the SPFL to issue that statement without even a hint of apology for the laughing stock they have again reduced our national game to. They act as if this was all totally normal.
Full SPFL Statement
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-resolution-approved-by-clubs-in-all-four-di
So John Humphry’s name is spelled without an ‘e’. Who knew? ( I had to look him up because I wasn’t sure whether it was ‘Humphries’ or ‘Humphreys’)
But I remember raging in sympathy with him a few years ago when he blasted the toss-pots who try to give a false academic air to their usually trite utterances and replies to everyday questions.
And while we are on the subject of language, when the hell did ‘snuck’ become the past tense of ‘sneak’ except in feckin US movies?
easyJambo 15th April 2020 at 18:08
I can only think that Hearts will not be fighting the decision if this is true.
“The SPFL board has also committed to consult on possible league restructuring in time for season 2020/21 around an expanded Premiership model. Ann Budge and Les Gray will lead a task force.”
Presumably both were spoken to before this was released.
John Clark 15th April 2020 at 18:29
…
And while we are on the subject of language, when the hell did ‘snuck’ become the past tense of ‘sneak’ except in feckin US movies?
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Absolutely, JC!
It's gotten out of hand, so it has.
I am absolutely sure both Mr Gray and Mrs Budge are ably qualified to head the working group. Am I right in saying it’s the team that would otherwise be relegated and the team in the play off position that they are affiliated to when considering the merits or otherwise of expansion?
And slightly less tongue in cheek. I’d suggest again that Anne’s first job tomorrow is to phone Sky and ask the simple questions. What do you want and what don’t you want? And then take it from there (possibly via the lawyer to make sure they’re not just humouring her!)
And I notice the restructure has suddenly been focussed on the Premiership only.
John Clark 15th April 2020 at 18:29
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I think I could of pointed out more annoying things than snuck John.
Homunculus 15th April 2020 at 18:33
easyJambo 15th April 2020 at 18:08
I can only think that Hearts will not be fighting the decision if this is true.
“The SPFL board has also committed to consult on possible league restructuring in time for season 2020/21 around an expanded Premiership model. Ann Budge and Les Gray will lead a task force.”
Presumably both were spoken to before this was released.
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Personally I think that she has been set up to fail. The SPFL Board will have a good idea of top clubs’ views on reconstruction. 11-1 on the face of it seems unachieveable. If she does indeed fail then the SPFL Board will escape the criticism, saying that it was one of the strongest proponents who had the job, but failed to persuade the clubs to support it.
This is what she said in a statement as recently as Sunday.
Her first step should be to contact all clubs this evening and ask for their preferred reconstruction models (preferably by 5pm on Friday)
. If any more than one Premiership club comes back with “we don’t want reconstruction”, then she should resign from the task force and head for the Court of Session in support PTFC.
Whatever the outcome, it will be viewed as her legacy for her time in charge at Hearts. If she doesn’t come out with something positive about her task, then ST sales will bomb.
easyJambo 15th April 2020 at 18:08
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On the assumption that Rangers will vote no, and I think that is a given do you not think it would be possible to get everyone else on-side.
Hearts and Hamilton have to be a yes. I suspected most of the bottom six would be the same (for selfish reasons). Hibs will surely want the derby (did their captain not say that recently).
There might be a bit of heats and minds required but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Particularly if the SPFL is supportive.
gunnerb 15th April 2020 at 18:47
'…could of pointed '
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Yes, let's both of us shout at Michael Stewart. Outrageous, with his 'could ofs' and 'should ofs'. Can the man read anything other than a game of football? Is that the way he writes?
I have not heard even one other 'football player-turned-pundit', not even Derek (who has actually come on a ton , and is clearly Richard Gordon's 'pet') thinks the word 'of' has any place in that contraction.
It gars me greet.
Homunculus 15th April 2020 at 19:13
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Reconstruction now looks a shoe-in to me. Isn't there even a chance Rangers would vote for it it? Having Hearts in the top league ticks all the boxes in terms of stadium, support, sponsors and media coverage.
From SPFL Statement:-
“The resolution also gives authority to make a decision on the remainder of the Ladbrokes Premiership season, and the board is committed to consulting with Premiership clubs before any such decision is made”
That should light the blue torch paper in Govania – cue further confrontational and obstructive statements from Messrs Parks and Robertson about null and void, tainted title etc
I myself personally (just as bad as I mean and So!) think that the traditional bitterness (what is that complaint about McLennan- from 2017 for Gods’s sake! – all about?) will be well evidenced in the near future.
SEVCO is IMHO a ‘bad article’.
John
I have often thunk that myself 🙂
One observation over the fiasco of the last week is that the SPFL board, constituted of roughly the same people who were involved in the liquidation crisis of 2012, had chosen not to make a proposal aimed at safeguarding income streams.
In 2012 of course, they were demanding that TRFC be parachuted into the SPL “to keep the money flowing in the game”.
In 2020 they were happy to see the third biggest club in the country relegated, even though they had the perfect opportunity to introduce the reconstruction narrative.
That said, who believed them in 2012?
Big Pink 15th April 2020 at 19:59
John I have often thunk that myself ?
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This etymological diversion has just been distracting,
from the get-go!
(Sorry: I'll get ma sneakers…)
bect67
I fear you are correct, and that the debate will be overshadowed by the warring factions of the Big Two – or at least the warring faction of one of them 🙂
A shame really because this last week has not been about either of the Glasgow giants. It has been about how the governing bodies perceive fairness, and in particular how spectacularly low their empathy reserves are, a fact laid bare by their failure to see, or care, that some clubs would be severely disadvantaged by their arrogant bungling.
Exactly the quality required for real leadership is empathy. I'm not so sure there's enough of it anywhere in the game to fill a phone box.
upthehoops 15th April 2020 at 19:43
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Their only concern will be playing to the fans now.
There will be a lot of sabre rattling, wagon circling and various other pictures in words.
Remember these are the people who will use orange shirts, "surrender no", "watp" and pretty much anything else to get those season tickets sold. Any feedback from their fans sites would suggest that they would not be impressed if the club then supported re-structure.
In fact if anything they are currently leaving the league, suing everyone and anyone, bringing down the corrupt cabal, refusing to play in cups and pretty much anything you would expect. Oh and there's a lot of boycotting going on. From every other team in the league to Dundee FCs business partners, I kid you not.
StevieBC
Insects? Who's talking about insects?
bect67 15th April 2020 at 19:56
From SPFL Statement:- “The resolution also gives authority to make a decision on the remainder of the Ladbrokes Premiership season, and the board is committed to consulting with Premiership clubs before any such decision is made” That should light the blue torch paper in Govania – cue further confrontational and obstructive statements from Messrs Parks and Robertson about null and void, tainted title etc
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I think it more likely he will once again be asked, (privately) to produce his evidence or face a disrepute charge. He may just prefer the given alternative of, STFU !.
"Away an' play wi' yir buses", as my granny used to say.
Then again…..He may have evidence, and the clubs will be getting nothing this week…..Suppose it will be dependent on the whistle still having a pea in it.
Higgy’s Shoes 15th April 2020 at 16:05
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Completely off topic.
Has anybody else noticed that no matter who gets asked a question on the tv/radio,
be it reporter, politician, member of the public or pundit, that their reply more times than not starts with the word “SO”. Has this always been the case ?
…………………
I was always told never start a sentance with the word So, and to this day i am guilty of it, but every time i do it i hear that voice saying don’t do it.
easyJambo 15th April 2020 at 18:49
'…The SPFL Board will have a good idea of top clubs’ views on reconstruction. 11-1 on the face of it seems unachieveable. '
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I rather think you're being a shade pessimistic, eJ.
Anne Budge , and Hearts, won a great deal of goodwill in the world of Scottish Football by their determined effort to avoid relegation (unlike Rangers) and the grit and determination shown by fans and board and the FOH.
She is perceived to be an honourable woman among some decidedly viewed as being not quite so honourable men.And while business is business ( if the canting cheat of all sports cheats remarked as he slid the stiletto Airdrieonians FC) I suspect that 11 men have been so confused and confounded and a bit ashamed of self-seeking that they will do the honourable thing, even at some financial cost in the short to medium term.
The sport is so interdependent and the crisis of coronavirus is so clearly no club's fault that some realistic and 'humane' response has to be made. No PL club would necessarily die if some league reconstruction was undertaken.
And a badly shaken SPFL might be prompted to get its arse in gear , overhaul itself and come into the 21st century.
I imagine that the number of football supporters in the clubs in the PL in Scotland who would not be distressed if Hearts were to be relegated out of hand would be quite small.
And I suspect that 11 of the PL clubs' boards think that as well.
Cluster One 15th April 2020 at 21:23
The language is organic, splitting infinitives is no longer forbidden, ending sentences with a preposition is also fine too. Multiple conjunctions, who cares. A conjunction at the start of a sentence, or after a comma, worry yeah not. As to the apostrophe, whether a contraction, possessive, or the much abused possessive plural, no one cares any more.
And folk are worrying about league reconstruction, where are peoples' priorities. Oh and apparently there's some sort of Global pandemic going on. Who noticed.*
*I am with Jim Moir on this one. The question mark is too elaborate, like the curly-wurly.
John Clark 15th April 2020 at 18:29
So , I've got a 26 year-old daughter who thinks that the preterite of jump is jamp . I don't watch (American) movies , so know not its provenance , if any .
John Clark 15th April 2020 at 21:33
I rather think you’re being a shade pessimistic, eJ.
Anne Budge , and Hearts, won a great deal of goodwill in the world of Scottish Football by their determined effort to avoid relegation (unlike Rangers) and the grit and determination shown by fans and board and the FOH.
She is perceived to be an honourable woman among some decidedly viewed as being not quite so honourable men.
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I’m not sure that your view of Ann Budge is shared by the other clubs. One contact I have told me, just tonight, that she wasn’t liked by the other clubs’ chairmen. She wasn’t re-elected to the SPFL Board after her first year when she only got one vote from the Premiership clubs (her own).
I’ll continue to view the situation as a half empty glass, until such time that there is a positive indication that all the Premiership clubs intend to vote in favour of reconstruction.
The first thing I’ll be looking for is a timeline. It shouldn’t take long to prepare plans, as there have been plenty alternative structures outlined in recent weeks and months. Plug in the appropriate implications for the financial distribution and it should be ready to go within a couple of weeks, definitely not months.
The SPFL statement referred to reconstruction as “an expanded Premiership model”, so it may be that the parameters of what will be considered are already set, i.e. a change to Premiership numbers only (14 x 10 x 10 x 10). It would be ironic if such a model was recommended, but Dundee rejected it because they wanted 3 promoted (including themselves) and 1 relegated (Hearts), instead of 2 up and 0 down.
I think it will come down to money as the prize money for the additional 2 teams in the Premiership could be in the range of £1.5m-£2m, although £300k of that would be saved by not having to pay parachute payments to relegated clubs at the end of this season. It might mean current premiership clubs each taking a hit of £100k to £150k each in their prize money next season, which might not be attractive to some.
If a proposal from the task force is put to a vote, will the SPFL Board support it with the same vigour as they did for the “end of season” proposal? I somehow don’t quite see that happening.
One of my TRFC – supporting mates fell out with me earlier because I wouldn't join him in attacking Peter Lawwell over this voting fiasco . He must be a really bad man , that Peter Lawwell . He sent TRFC in to SPFL with a resolution which didn't have the required number of signatories and it failed . He sent them back again with the requisite number , only for them to be told that it wasn't legally sound . He then instructed them to throw the toys out the pram , and scream and scream . TRFC duly did his bidding . Meanwhile , various other groupings emerged , all with different agendas but all acting under Peter Lawwell's instructions . All this was done to distract from his primary purpose , which is displaying a visceral hatred of TRFC every day in a cowed media .
If Hearts don't get relegated and we do , it'll end in tears (and not just mine ).
Homunculus.
Jim Moir? Is that the comedian?
haven't heard from him since the days of a stand up comedy programme that was aired about 15 years ago on tv (can't remember the name) The programme introduced viewers to Frankie Boyle and Craig Hill.
Jim had an excellent character called Obidiah Steppenwolf III
HS
If Dundee voted yes in the hope that there would be a reconstruction involving 3 up and one down they are living in cuckoo land.
John Clark 15th April 2020 at 21:33
easyJambo 15th April 2020 at 18:49 '
…The SPFL Board will have a good idea of top clubs’ views on reconstruction. 11-1 on the face of it seems unachieveable.
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I rather think you're being a shade pessimistic, eJ.
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If it's any consolation EJ, I'll echo John's optimism and will be sending a wee email to Celtic advocating change. I'm in the 3 divisions mould, which to my mind will compress the standard into a tighter range. The levels tween Prem and 3rd are just too disparate.
Numbers?…..Divisions should be related to levels, and numbers just for the sake of it, I feel, are meaningless. Quality should be the emphasis.
Although monies will, (if all goes to plan) now be released, I still think this virus will take some clubs…..As it will many businesses……We've got a bit of a waiting game on that yet I fear.
easyJambo 15th April 2020 at 22:32
I think it will come down to money as the prize money for the additional 2 teams in the Premiership could be in the range of £1.5m-£2m, although £300k of that would be saved by not having to pay parachute payments to relegated clubs at the end of this season. It might mean current premiership clubs each taking a hit of £100k to £150k each in their prize money next season, which might not be attractive to some.
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The big questions here are – How much prize money will there be without a League sponsor? Is the new TV deal so much better that a League sponsor won't be missed?