Spot the difference?

Good Afternoon.

Announcing outstanding financial successes for Rangers PLC the then Chairman of the club opened his Chairman’s report in the annual financial statements with the following words:

“Last summer I explained that the Club, after many years of significant investment in our playing squad
and more recently in our state of the art facility at Murray Park, had embarked on a three year business
plan to stabilise and improve the Club’s finances. The plan also recognised the need to react to the
challenging economic conditions facing football clubs around the world.

Following a trend over a number of years of increasing year on year losses, I am pleased to report that
in the first year of this plan we have made important progress by reversing this trend. Our trading loss
for last year of £11.2m reflects a £7.9m improvement versus the £19.1m loss for the previous year and
although it will take more time to completely reach our goals, this is a key milestone. We also intend to
make significant further progress by the end of the current financial year. This improvement is the
consequence of having a solid strategy and the commitment and energy to implement the changes it requires”

Later on in the same statement the chairman would add:

“Another key part of our plan is associated with the Rangers brand and our Retail Division goes from strength to strength. Our financial results this year have been significantly enhanced by an outstanding performance in merchandising Rangers products, in particular replica kit, which makes our Retail Division one of the most successful in Europe.”

In the same set of financial reports, the CEO would report:

“To further strengthen Rangers hospitality portfolio, a new dedicated sponsor’s lounge was unveiled this season. The Carling Lounge is a first for the Club and was developed in conjunction with our new sponsor, Carling. ”

and

“Our innovative events programme continues to grow and this year saw a record number of official events including the highly successful annual Hall of Fame Awards Ceremony, Player of the Year and 50 Championships Gala Dinner, all of which catered for up to 1000 guests.

At Rangers, we continually develop our portfolio of products and as a key area of income for the Club, we evaluate the market for new revenue opportunities on an ongoing basis in order to exceed our existing and potential customer expectations and needs.

Demand for season tickets reached an all time high last season with a record 42,508 season ticket holders in comparison with the previous season`s figure of 40,320. Over 36,000 of these season ticket holders renewed for this season – a record number.

For the new season, we are delighted to welcome brewing giant, Carling on board as our Official Club sponsor. Carling is one of the UK’s leading consumer brands with a proven track record in football sponsorship.
The Club also continues to work with a number of multinational blue chip brands such as National Car Rental, Sony Playstation 2, Bank of Scotland and Coca-Cola. This year, we will also experience the evolution of the Honda deal via Hyndland Honda and welcome the mobile communications giant T-Mobile to our ranks.”.

The year was 2003 and in the previous 24 months Rangers Football Club, owned and operated as a private fiefdom by Sir David Murray, had made operational losses of some £30 million.

Yes – 30 MILLION POUNDS.

Of course the chairman’s report for 2003 was written by John F Mclelland CBE and the CEO was one Martin Bain Esq.

As Mr Mclelland clearly stated, by 2003 the club already had a trend of increasing year on year losses covering a number of years and was losing annual sums which stretched into millions, if not tens of millions, of pounds.

However, the acquisition of Rangers Football Club was absolutely vital to David Murray’s personal business growth, and his complete control of the club as his own private business key was more important than any other business decision he had made before buying Rangers or since.

When he persuaded Gavin Masterton to finance 100% of the purchase price of the club, Murray had his finest business moment.

By getting control of Rangers, Murray was able to offer entertainment, hospitality, seeming privilege and bestow favour on others in a way that was hitherto undreamed of, and he bestowed that largesse on any number of “existing and potential clients” and contacts – be they the clients and contacts related to Rangers Football Club or the existing and potential clients of David Murray, his businesses, his banks, or anyone in any field that he chose to court for the purposes of potential business.

His business.

It wasn’t only journalists who benefited from the succulent lamb treatment.

Accountants,lawyers, surveyors, broadcasters, football officials, people in industry and construction, utilities, financiers and other areas of business were all invited inside the sacred House of Murray and given access to the great man of business “and owner of Rangers” while attending the “record number of official (hospitality) events”.

Twelve months on from when John McLelland made those statements in the 2003 accounts, David Murray was back in the chair at Ibrox and he presented the 2004 financials.

In the intervening 12 months Rangers had gained an additional £10 million from Champions League income and had received £8.6 million in transfer fees from the sale of Messrs Ferguson, Amoruso and McCann. Not only that, the Rangers board had managed to reduce the club’s wage bill by £5 million. Taking all three figures together comes to some £23.6 million in extra income or savings.

Yet, the accounts for 2004 showed that the club made an operational loss of almost £6 million and overall debt had risen by an additional £7 million to £97.4 million.

However, the 2004 accounts were also interesting for another reason.

Rangers PLC had introduced payments “to employees trusts” into their accounts for the first time in 2001 and in that year they had paid £1million into those trusts. Just three years later, the trust payments recorded in the accounts had risen to £7.3 million per annum — or to put it another way to 25% of the annual wage bill though no one in Scottish Football asked any questions about that!

By the following year, the chairman announced that the 2004 operational loss had in fact been £10.4million but that the good news was that the 2005 operational loss was only £7.8 million. However Rangers were able to post a profit before taxation if they included the money obtained from transfers (£8.4 million) and the inclusion of an extraordinary profit of £14,999,999 made on buying back the shares of a subsidiary company for £1 which they had previously sold for £15 million.

All of which added up to a whopping great profit of ……… £12.4 million!

I will leave you to do the maths on 2005.

Oh and of course these accounts included the detail that 3000 Rangers fans had joined David Murray in participating in the November ’94 share issue where the club managed to raise £51,430,995 in fresh capital most of which was provided by Mr Murray… sorry I mean MIH ….. sorry that should read Bank of Scotland …… or their shareholders……. or should that be the public purse?

The notable items in the 2006 accounts included the announcement of a ten year deal with JJB Sports to take over the merchandising operation of the club and increased revenue from an extended run in the Champion’s League. However, the profit before tax was declared at only£0.1 million in comparison to the £12.4 million of the year before but then again that £12.4 million had included player sales of £8.4 million and the £15 million sweety bonus from  the repurchase of ones own former subsidiary shares for £1.

Jumping to 2008 Rangers saw a record year in terms of turnover which had risen to £64.5 million which enabled the company to record a profit on ordinary activities before taxation of  £6.57 million although it should be pointed out that wages and bonuses were up at 77% of turnover and that a big factor in the Rangers income stream was corporate hospitality and the top line of income was shown as “gate receipts and hospitality”.

However, 2009 saw a calamitous set of figures. Whilst Alastair Johnston tried to put a brave chairman’s face on it, the year saw an operating loss of £17.325 million which was softened only by player disposals leading to a loss before taxation of a mere £14.085 million.

Fortunately Sir David did not have to report these figures as he chose to stand down as chairman in August and so Johnston stepped in and announced that he was deeply honoured to do so.

In 2010, the income stream jumped from £39.7 million to over £56 million with the result that the club showed a profit before taxation of £4.209 million.

However, by that time the corporate hospitality ticket that was Rangers Football Club was done for as a result of matters that had nothing to do with events on the football field in the main.

First, the emergence of the Fergus McCann run Celtic had brought a real business and sporting challenge. This was something that Murray had not previously faced in the football business.

Second,the Bank of Scotland had gone bust and Lloyds could not and would not allow Murray to continually borrow vast sums of money on the basis of revalued assets and outrageous hospitality.

Third, the UEFA fair play rules came into being and demanded that clubs at least act on a semblance of proper corporate governance and fiscal propriety.

Lastly,Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tightened up the law on the use of EBT’s which meant that Rangers could no longer afford to buy in the players that brought almost guaranteed success against domestic opposition.

On average, since 2002 Rangers PLC had lost between £7 million – £8 million per year – or roughly £650,000 per month if you like – yet for the better part of a decade David Murray had been able to persuade the Bank of Scotland that this was a business that was worthy of ever greater financial support or that he himself and his MIH business was of such value that the Banks should support him in supporting the Ibrox club whilst operating in this fashion.

Of course, had Murray’s Rangers paid tax on all player remunerations then the losses would have been far larger.

Meanwhile, all the other clubs in Scottish football who banked with the Bank of Scotland faced funding cuts and demands for repayment with the bank publicly proclaiming that it was overexposed to the football market in Scotland.

But no one asked any questions about why the bank should act one way with Murray’s club but another way with all others. No one in football, no one in the media and no one from the world of business.

Looking back,it is hard to imagine a business which has been run on such a consistent loss making basis being allowed to continue by either its owners or by its bankers. However, a successful and funded Rangers was so important to the Murray group that David Murray was clearly willing to lose millions year after year to keep the Gala dinners and corporate hospitality going.

Rangers were Murray’s big PR vehicle and the club was essentially used by him to open the doors which would allow him to make more money elsewhere on a personal basis and if it meant Rangers cutting every corner and accumulating massive losses, unsustainable losses, then so be it.

Today, the new regime at Ibrox run the current business in a way which clocks up the same colossal annual losses whilst the club competes outwith Scotland’s top division. Each day we hear that the wage bill is unsustainable, that the playing staff are overpaid, that the stadium needs massive investment and that the fans are opposed to the stadium itself being mortgaged and the club being in hawk to lenders.

Yet, in the Murray era the Stadium was revalued time and time again and its revaluation was used as the justification for ever greater borrowing on the Rangers accounts. The playing staff were massively overpaid and financially assisted by the EBT’s and most years the Chairman’s annual statement announced huge losses despite regular claims of record season ticket sales, record hospitality income, European income, shirt sponsorship and the outsourcing of all merchandising to JJB sports instead of Sports Direct.

The comparison between the old business and the current one is clear for all to see.

It should be noted, that since the days of Murray, no major banking institution has agreed to provide the Ibrox business with any banking facilities. Not under Whyte, not under Green, not under anyone.

Yet few ask why that should be.

The destruction of the old Rangers business led those in charge of Scottish football to announce that Armageddon was on the horizon if it had not actually arrived, yet today virtually all Scottish clubs are in a better financial and business state than back in the bad old days of the Bank of Scotland financed SPL. Some have succumbed to insolvency, and others have simply cut their cloth, changed their structure, sought, and in some cases attracted, new owners and moved on in terms of business.

In general, Scottish Football has cleaned house at club level.

Now, David Murray has “cleaned house” in that MIH has bitten the dust and walked down insolvency road.

What is interesting is that the Murray brand still has that capacity to get out a good PR message when it needs to. Despite the MIH pension fund being short of money for some inexplicable reason, last week it was announced that the family controlled Murray Estates had approached those in charge of MIH and had agreed to buy some key MIH assets for something in the region of £13.9 million.

The assets concerned are land banks which at some point will be zoned for planning and which will undoubtedly bring the Murray family considerable profit in the future, with some of those assets already looking as if they will produce a return sooner rather than later.

However, what is not commented upon in the mainstream press is the fact that Murray Estates had the ability to pay £13.9 Million for anything at all and that having that amount of money to spend the Murray camp has chosen not to buy any football club down Govan way.

Perhaps, it has been realised that a football club which loses millions of pounds each year is not such a shrewd investment and that the Murray family money would be better spent elsewhere?

Perhaps, it has been realised that the culture of wining, dining, partying and entertaining to the most lavish and extravagant extent will not result in the banks opening their vaults any more?

Perhaps, it has been realised that the Rangers brand has been so badly damaged over the years that it is no longer the key to the golden door in terms of business, finance and banking and that running a football club in 2015 involves a discipline and a set of skills that David Murray and his team do not have experience of?

What is clear, is that the Murray years at Ibrox were not good for the average Rangers fan in the long term and that when you have a football club – any football club – being run for the private benefit of one rich individual, or group of individuals, then the feelings and passions of the ordinary fan will as often as not be forgotten when that individual or his group choose to move on once they have decided that they no longer wish to play with their toy football club.

David Murray did not make money directly out of Rangers Football Club. He used it as a key to open other doors for him and to get him a seat at other tables and into a different type of “club” altogether. He did not run the club in a day to day fashion that was designed to bring stability and prolonged financial, or playing, success to the club. its investors and its fans. He did not preside over Ibrox during a period of sustained financial gain.

Mike Ashley will not subsidise 2015 version of Rangers to anything like the same extent that the Bank of Scotland did in the 90’s and naughties.

However, Ashley, like Murray, will use his control of the Rangers brand to open doors for him elsewhere in the sports retail market, and he will use the Rangers contract with Sports Direct to make a handsome profit. He will also control all the advertising revenue just as he does at Newcastle. In short, Mr Ashley is only interested in The Rangers with a view to using it as a stepping stone to achieve other things elsewhere.

However, don’t take my word for any of this, take the opinion of someone who knows.

Mr Dave King is quoted today as saying the following about the current board of Directors who are in charge of the current Ibrox holding company.

“History will judge this board as one of the worst the club has ever had. There is not one individual who puts the club above personal interest.”

That is an interesting observation from a man who became a non executive director of the old Rangers holding company in 2000 and who had a front row pew for every set of accounts and all the financial statements referred to above.

Whether or not Mr King is a glib and shameless liar is a matter of South African judicial opinion. Whether or not he can spot someone who puts their own self interest ahead of the interests of Rangers Football Club and the supporters of the club is a matter that should be discussed over some fine wine, some succulent lamb and whatever postprandial entertainment you care to imagine.

I wonder if he has ever read the accounts of Rangers PLC and compared them to the corresponding accounts of MIH for the same period?

 

4,992 thoughts on “Spot the difference?


  1. Chick Young (on BBC radio talking to Tom English)

    – “regarding the league position…many Rangers supporters I know, are more concerned with the Club’s survival…”

    Can anyone please explain to me, what could possibly be a threat to
    . . . the Club’s survival ??????


  2. Danish Pastry says:
    February 20, 2015 at 5:44 pm
    Euan McLean in the DR. Not an article I thought I’d read in that publication. Stan has not ruffled feathers in vain:

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/opinion/sport/euan-mclean-stan-collymore-bigot-5199835
    ===============================================
    Encouraging article – if it is followed up.

    My only criticism is were he states that the SPFL has been weak and should have done something after the LC semi.

    IMO, the SPFL is there to make money. Period.

    If they fail to act appropriately, then in theory it should be the SFA which gets involved, to protect the whole Scottish game – not just the 42 senior clubs.

    But then again, it’s an incestuous relationship between the SFA/SPFL, and this is another example where the administrators are out of touch with the majority of the fans – at all levels in the game.


  3. Watching BT Sport just now (I know…. I Know…. but not an extra payment) pundits on critical of Chelsea/racism etc – where does the hypocrisy end re Collymore’s ‘disappearance’?


  4. jimlarkin says:
    February 20, 2015 at 6:45 pm
    Chick Young (on BBC radio talking to Tom English)

    – “regarding the league position…many Rangers supporters I know, are more concerned with the Club’s survival…”

    Can anyone please explain to me, what could possibly be a threat to
    . . . the Club’s survival ??????
    —————

    Chick means the company … er … holding club … holding company … no, the legal, non-legal everlasting oneness … Tangled Up In Blue … the holding club of the eternal spiritual entity of the company, holding floating charges contained in the assets of the spiritual home that supporters bought shares in, or not … the roving wraiths of 1872 … (cont. on page 94)


  5. jimlarkin says:

    February 20, 2015 at 6:45 pm

    Chick Young (on BBC radio talking to Tom English)

    – “regarding the league position…many Rangers supporters I know, are more concerned with the Club’s survival…”

    Can anyone please explain to me, what could possibly be a threat to
    . . . the Club’s survival ??????

    ————————————————-
    Err

    Someone may fail to deliver money. Someone may want their money back.
    That’s two ways to not survive.
    Im sure there are many others available. 😈


  6. Danish,
    Interesting link re the DR article. Thanks.
    Thought I’d pop into the Den to see how they may be reacting to it.
    Wish I hadn’t.
    In the thread for tonight’s game, there is is post which is attracting some amusement.
    Some bright spark has posted the video of the man trying to board the Metro train Paris and has titled it
    “Stan Colleymore trying to get into the BT Studios tonight”.
    They’ve even added a very NSFW picture mocking an incident in Colleymore’s past.
    These are the type of people we are dealing with here.
    21st century Britain can well do without them.


  7. BT Sport just said they withdrew Collymore invitation as ‘they don’t want…. to be drawn into the ensuing controversy’!!!

    Hear no evil. See no evil….

    What a shower of …..


  8. occam says:
    February 20, 2015 at 7:16 pm
    BT Sport just said they withdrew Collymore invitation as ‘they don’t want…. to be drawn into the ensuing controversy’!!!…
    =============================================
    …so presumably, BT Sport will never ever screen England’s 3rd ‘goal’ against West Germany in the 1966 WC Final again…well certainly not in Scotland ?!

    [Had to be said. 😉 ]


  9. I’m hearing a familiar song from Kirkaldy over BT sport. Make that two familiar songs. 2 minutes in.


  10. Danish Pastry says:
    February 20, 2015 at 5:44 pm

    Euan McLean in the DR. Not an article I thought I’d read in that publication. Stan has not ruffled feathers in vain:
    =========================================================
    Indeed, surprising and very welcome.

    However I’m not sure about the “ruffling feathers in vain” bit, regrettably I think that’s exactly what will happen.

    IMO this is a political problem….think about it, if the fans in question, or any fans, were belting out racist ditties our politicians would be all over them like a rash.

    For too long there’s been a political blind spot and the SPFL and the SFA have been happy to bask in its shade.


  11. I’ve just been reading about the loan status between RIFC and TRFC.

    It seems TRFC are in debt to RIFC to the tune of £15M+ a loan which could be recalled at anytime and in addition to the Ashley loans.

    I’m sure many are already aware of this, so how does it affect the situation if King wins at the EGM?

    Another question, how does it fit in with FFP – anyone?


  12. ianagain says:
    February 20, 2015 at 7:48 pm
    I’m hearing a familiar song from Kirkaldy over BT sport. Make that two familiar songs. 2 minutes in.
    ___________
    they have been told by Regan they are untouchable as long as there is enough of them


  13. ianagain says:
    February 20, 2015 at 7:48 pm
    I’m hearing a familiar song from Kirkaldy over BT sport. Make that two familiar songs. 2 minutes in.

    2 0 Rate This
    ———-

    Neaderthal chanting aside, Raith v Wraiths is showing a very impressive home team. Once again, the unexpected positive side-effect of the media obsession with ‘The Journey’ is seeing the grounds and teams that were once cut adrift by the elite.

    The tedium of 4 x season fixtures — probably only invented for the sake of the Dinosaur Derby — has surely got to end. Cracking wee stadium. Roll on the Peoples Democratic Republic of Scottish Fitba


  14. I think I’m getting hooked on some subliminal advertising in this game but next time I’m in Kirkcaldy I’ll be visiting Eddys Bar 76 Birnham road Kirkcaldy (he of the flashing sign).
    Somehow I’ve never in my life entered an SD store despite etc etc.


  15. Why oh why was AMcC not playing that kid Murdoch? that was good.


  16. scapaflow says:
    February 20, 2015 at 3:12 pm

    Just catching up re comment on the Offensive Behaviour Act… ‘Much cross-party support’ – Nope, it was passed with no support from opposition parties. It was only SNP members who voted for it.


  17. Cheers @mungoboy, Stan Collymore’s twitter timeline is full of appalling abuse. Personally, I think he shouldn’t engage with the crazies. He made a bold statement. Pity he didn’t leave it at that until the TV show. Mob rule, eh? Why would any business want to be associated with that kind of support?


  18. Danish Pastry says:
    February 20, 2015 at 8:51 pm
    Cheers @mungoboy, Stan Collymore’s twitter timeline is full of appalling abuse.

    ====================
    I had a quick look myself (followed rapidly by a shower). The police really need to get a grip of this, and very quickly. There is an air of impunity surrounding these “peepil”- they really do believe that they can say whatever they like- encouraged of course by Regan’s abject cowardice. I gather that tonight Starks Park is providing yet another in a long line of concert venues for the “tiny minority”.

    When is this festering boil going to be lanced? Not in my lifetime, I fear.


  19. Danish,
    That’s the problem for BT.
    By taking their action against Collymore they are now firmly associated with that kind of support.
    The mob certainly think they’re on their side after they binned him.


  20. Interesting the long ball game works tother way. Just when you thought it was all over.


  21. Danish Pastry says:

    February 20, 2015 at 8:16 pm

    ianagain says:
    February 20, 2015 at 7:48 pm
    I’m hearing a familiar song from Kirkaldy over BT sport. Make that two familiar songs. 2 minutes in.

    2 0 Rate This
    ———-

    Neaderthal chanting aside, Raith v Wraiths is showing a very impressive home team. Once again, the unexpected positive side-effect of the media obsession with ‘The Journey’ is seeing the grounds and teams that were once cut adrift by the elite.

    The tedium of 4 x season fixtures — probably only invented for the sake of the Dinosaur Derby — has surely got to end. Cracking wee stadium. Roll on the Peoples Democratic Republic of Scottish Fitba
    ===================================

    Danish

    With your new found Ahem video link. Youll no doubt be aware you can follow the journey on yet another Friday night next week.
    Meanwhile the Diddy top teams cant even get on the radio.


  22. I’m afraid it’s a case of reap what you sow, James. To the Sevco eye, you supported them by supporting their right to sing those songs (even if you didn’t really)just like the SFA/SPFL/SMSM and Police Scotland do by ignoring them. Is it really worth it just so Celtic fans can sing their – in your eyes, acceptable – ‘political’ songs? (Yes, I know there’s more than that to your support for freedom of speech, but that was an argument you put forward).


  23. nawlite:

    Tonight’s display puts me in the hypocrite category.

    There are worse things to be. I’ll not wear it comfortably, but I’ll wear it.

    But I’ll say just this; I’m not interested in moral equivalence because there’s none. I’m not getting into a “songs debate” on here, but if you don’t see a difference between political expression and sectarian and racist bile I can’t change your mind.


  24. James Forrest says:
    February 20, 2015 at 10:09 pm
    _________________________________

    James,like you,I feel sick to the pit of my stomach at the performance tonight.
    It is admirable of you to come on and publish your thoughts and doubts. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.


  25. Can’t believe the abuse at Stan Collymore on Twitter; maybe I’m just naive but I really didn’t think people were so publically vulgar.

    Hope the police go after these bigoted racists.


  26. James, I’ve never bought it, even when a good Celtic-supporting friend used the same argument. Although no longer religious, I was brought up in an Irish-catholic family (though I’m 3 times removed from any relative who actually lived in Ireland), but see no reason to sing about that. What’s the difference between the catholic war songs and the protestant ones that makes one more acceptable than the other. It’s the only part of the ‘both cheeks’ argument where I have any sympathy that one is indeed as bad as the other.


  27. Lets face it.

    Both sides will belt it out – whatever its about.

    Forever and ever.

    Until they realise no one cares anymore.

    Provided the big if:

    All media ignores it.

    And with social media that’s no time soon.

    Personally I’m not repeating my comments of tonight under any circumstances as I have realised I’ve just added to the bollocks.

    Ianagain eejit


  28. Anyone available to cover the Charlotte taped thing on Monday?

    Essex ?


  29. Very interesting that the SPFL now decide to engage their selective hearing in relation to the tonight’s songbook…perhaps Mr Collymore’s comments have raised more attention to this issue than BT Sport wanted to acknowledge.


  30. Relax. Or, if you’re younger, chill out. I’ve spent much of the last couple of days walking through post industrial Tyneside (it’s Hadrian related). It’s vegetation pushing through concrete, parks where there were shipyards, and people fishing where there were polluting industries. Nature and mankind re asserting themselves.
    Sectarianism strangled its major protagonist when RFC went into liquidation. It will claim its second victim if and when their tribute act goes the same way. In the meantime, the tribulations of TRFC remind us that a business paradigm based on exclusion, rather than inclusion, has scant possibility of success.


  31. imlarkin says:
    February 20, 2015 at 6:45 pm
    Chick Young (on BBC radio talking to Tom English)

    – “regarding the league position…many Rangers supporters I know, are more concerned with the Club’s survival…”

    Can anyone please explain to me, what could possibly be a threat to
    . . . the Club’s survival ??????
    ,,,,,,,,
    Can only be Ashley flogging the history to Stan Collymore then selling the liquidated assets to himself via his pal Sarver


  32. ElCapitano2013 says:
    February 20, 2015 at 11:46 pm
    Very interesting that the SPFL now decide to engage their selective hearing in relation to the tonight’s songbook…perhaps Mr Collymore’s comments have raised more attention to this issue than BT Sport wanted to acknowledge.

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Much more likely
    They are wetting themselves at the possibility of a jewish or muslim footballer publicly backing Collymore on Twitter and support snowballing on social media


  33. RyanGosling says:
    February 19, 2015 at 11:27 pm
    BigPink,

    Just read your second post. If it had finished 2-0 to Inter, would you have commented about Armageddon being postponed again?

    The Armageddon theories have been proved to be nonsense as demonstrated by a game which is surviving just fine. I think that position though, of TSFM advocating the strength of the game, is weakened when “Armageddon” is mentioned after a good result but ignored after a bad one.

    +++±+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bad result for Raith tonight given their ability to beat T’Rangers in cup competitions. Looks like Armageddon postponed as the plucky Gers continue their fight for promotion via holding onto a play-off spot.

    Sorry Ryan, couldn’t resist it 🙂


  34. ianagain says:
    February 20, 2015 at 9:32 pm
    Danish Pastry says:

    February 20, 2015 at 8:16 pm

    Danish

    With your new found Ahem video link. Youll no doubt be aware you can follow the journey on yet another Friday night next week.
    Meanwhile the Diddy top teams cant even get on the radio.

    12 0 Rate This
    ////////////

    No Ahem about it
    Completely legit 😛

    Oh and there were 6 other so called diddy teams on show last weekend
    Falkirk, Dunfermline Airdrie (I think lol can’t exactly remember shame on me I know) lol


  35. Wottpi – lol, well played sir.

    Stan Collymore ‏@StanCollymore 5m5 minutes ago
    I’ll be asking the Scottish FA, UEFA, BT sport to comment on whether they feel “Black Fenian Bastard” is actionable.

    I for one don’t really think it should get as far as the authorities mentioned, that terminology should not have police knocking on the door but knocking the door down and dragging the offender to a really cold, dark, uncomfortable prison. And when they get out, they shouldnt be allowed back to a football game, ever.


  36. Managed to avoid SSB tonight as I need a drink to listen to it, the quantity depends usually on which “experts” are on the programme. Did I miss anything of note?


  37. Stan Collymore is listening to the wind whistle down the street and the tumbleweed roll by as he waits for the journalists and TV presenters he knows to back him up. From his Twitter feed

    “@StanCollymore: Disgusted by the lack of support from journalists, broadcasters and pros, current and ex. The threats, slurs, racism is there for all.”

    It’s so much easier of course to express an opinion from behind a pen name (as we do here), it takes real guts to put your identifiable head above the parapet, as five or six journos have done, particularly when you know you are unlikely to be backed up by your employers, colleagues, or the authorities. But because they are in a position of power, that is why it is the responsibility of these groups to take action, and be SEEN to be determined to stamp out the mob’s intimidatory actions or the corrupt actions of shadowy groups. Their failure to do so is not just lack of action, it is not even mere tacit acceptance, it is taken as positive encouragement to those who threaten, coerce or use underhand means to get their way.

    Stan Collymore spoke truth to power, but power is so far putting its hands over its ears and trying desperately not to make eye contact.


  38. nawlite says:
    February 20, 2015 at 11:09 pm
    James, I’ve never bought it, even when a good Celtic-supporting friend used the same argument. Although no longer religious, I was brought up in an Irish-catholic family (though I’m 3 times removed from any relative who actually lived in Ireland), but see no reason to sing about that. What’s the difference between the catholic war songs and the protestant ones that makes one more acceptable than the other. It’s the only part of the ‘both cheeks’ argument where I have any sympathy that one is indeed as bad as the other.

    30 30 Rate This
    ………………………………………………………
    It surprised me to see so many TDs for the above reasonable (I thought) post by nawlite.
    The scoring is perfectly even.
    Like two cheeks etc…. 😀


  39. ianagain says:
    February 20, 2015 at 11:35 pm
    Anyone available to cover the Charlotte taped thing on Monday?

    Essex ?

    4 0 Rate This
    ====================================================================
    Ianagain…sorry no can do…pity it was not yesterday when I had most of the day free near the Law Courts.
    However as John Clark(e) will confirm, these hearings can be a cure for insomnia…even the Archer trial which I visited on a few occasions was mind numbingly boring… 🙁 🙁 🙁


  40. ElCapitano2013 says:

    Very interesting that the SPFL now decide to engage their selective hearing in relation to the tonight’s songbook…perhaps Mr Collymore’s comments have raised more attention to this issue than BT Sport wanted to acknowledge.
    ==================================================
    Their selective hearing was working during the LC semi as well and they considered the matter… “However, it is clear from information already received that ‎all parties prepared properly and thoroughly for the match and, to date, we have not seen any evidence of any breach of SPFL rules by either club.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/31492435

    They will have to come to the same conclusion this time round unless David Somers has been handing out song sheets and conducting the choir….the SPFL rules are quite simply inadequate.

    In fairness to the SFA they did attempt to bring in “strict liability” which would have given them the power to act in such instances but were defeated by their own members.

    However this was back in June 2013.

    After the vote Stewart Regan was quoted saying

    “What the clubs have asked us to do is to look at setting up a working party to establish whether there’s a viable deterrent for unacceptable behaviour that exists somewhere between our current rules and strict liability.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22853305?focuswin

    Well that’s over a year and a half ago and no sign of any “viable alternative” on the horizon.

    Scottish Football needs to pull the finger out, now.


  41. valentinesclown

    I’ve registered my complaint to BT Sport. I suggest everyone on TSFM do likewise. Stan Collymore deserves our support.


  42. @ianagain, a bit OT but there may be other exiles looking in who have no access to games:

    The current provider I have for IPTV is satellitestore.com. They offer a custom stream box that connects to the internet and your TV. It allows you to access various paid freeview & sports packages. Basically a replacement for Sky boxes that no longer work well abroad since they switched satellites and narrowed the reception ‘footprint’.

    These custom streamboxes are popular with exiles since the box means you don’t need to be too tech savvy and stable channels are lined up in groups. Tbh, I hardly watch telly apart from the tennis, cycling & fitba.

    BUT the system @tcup uses and which I’m testing out (he can explain it very well, btw) is essentially the same, although via a commonly available streambox (mini computer type thingy) and various software apps, you can link up to an astronomical number of free stream sources that you can watch on the TV. Not all sources are stable or HD, but for any event, even some very obscure ones, there are multi options. Great fun and free.

    It makes me wonder, though, why the SPFL have apparently sold all their rights in one package. No reason those online streaming rights couldn’t have been retained and a type of streaming SPFL TV set up as a subscription channel or on an individual match basis. Many clubs already have some kind if in-house TV or audio coverage of matches. It wouldn’t take a genius to pool these resources onto one ‘channel’ either — clubs working together to make their local content available.

    Anyhoo, I’ll be scanning for Scottish match sources after my late morning constitutional by the Kattegat 🙂


  43. Danish,
    In around 2005, IMG (on behalf of the SPL) sold the international rights to SPL matches to Polsat for around £200 000. This was on the back of interest stirred by the transfers of Artur Boruc and Maciej Żurawski to Celtic. Within a year, pubs all over Scotland were showing live matches via Polsat boxes whilst huge (in the 000s) gaps were appearing in the stands all over the country, most notably at Ibrox and Celtic Park.

    The following year, the SPL again sent IMG to play hardball, and they came back with a whopping £20 000 increase. Celtic and Rangers made not a lot of noise about it because the ST money was in the bank (usually to secure an OF seat) and matchday spend is historically very low.

    So the thinking is that we NEED OF games, but not so much the fans?

    The alternative, which I am discounting, is to assume that the negotiators at the SPL and IMG have the same grasp of basic numeracy as my National 3 Mathematics class last year. Lovely kids – but you wouldn’t send them out for the messages.

    * The above figures may not be exact, but they are in the ballpark – and are irrelevant in the context of my point.


  44. helpmaboab says:
    February 21, 2015 at 8:48 am
    valentinesclown

    I’ve registered my complaint to BT Sport. I suggest everyone on TSFM do likewise. Stan Collymore deserves our support.
    ———————————————
    Great I have done the same and so has my boys. This way I feel that I have at least done something to say we want this addressed. Nobody should have to here this or be subjected to this abuse and more importantly no one should have to suffer it. Broadcasters have a duty to their customers (and employees). More than I can say about our football authorities. Our Government has pussy footed around this issue as far back as I can remember without actually really addressing it (for whatever reason). We can all here it (like Hampden last week and Kirkcaldy last night as it was that loud). So why is it allowed? Why is it not being addressed? They will continue because they can. It has being going on for so long is it now just part of our societies shame. Used to be hidden now it is not, and with the SFA approach it is now virtually legal as they do not want or seem to want to punish the fans/clubs although they admit it happens. How does that make sense and how does that make people feel who here it and are offended by it. Is it the simply the case were we are the victims and they are the (we know the rest).


  45. It has been clear for the last three years that the continuation of a Rangers, and the maintenance of any meaningful sport of football in Scotland are mutually exclusive outcomes. What has become clear more recentky is that the continuation of Rangers and the maintenance of Scottish Law are now becoming mutually exclusive outcomes too. To date, the legal authorities appear to be following the football authorites in maintaining a Rangers, above all other priorities.
    This is what Scotland is, today, in the Twenty-first century.


  46. Meanwhile, Rangers face being investigated by the Scottish Professional Football League after its match delegate reported the Ibrox outfit’s travelling support at Stark’s Park for alleged sectarian songs.

    Fans in the away end could be heard chanting songs that involved the phrase “Fenian b******”.

    Now delegate Tom Purdie will mention the chanting by Gers fans when he files his report on a game broadcast live on BT Sport.

    Rangers escaped punishment from the SPFL for the alleged conduct of their followers in the League Cup semi-final against Celtic at Hampden earlier this month.


  47. valentinesclown says:
    February 21, 2015 at 10:15 am

    I have emailed the chairman of BT to complain. I doubt if I’ll even get a reply but if I do I’ll put it on the blog.

    michael.rake@bt.com


  48. Big Pink says:
    February 21, 2015 at 10:01 am

    Danish,
    In around 2005, IMG (on behalf of the SPL) sold the international rights to SPL matches to Polsat for around £200 000. This was on the back of interest stirred by the transfers of Artur Boruc and Maciej Żurawski to Celtic. Within a year, pubs all over Scotland were showing live matches via Polsat boxes whilst huge (in the 000s) gaps were appearing in the stands all over the country, most notably at Ibrox and Celtic Park…
    ——

    Thanks. Seems an outrageously low amount. My thinking was more a service aimed at exiles with at least some attempt at geoblocking so as to avoid damage to bums on seats.

    I noticed the EPL are now very much aware that their ‘product’ would not be half as attractive without the crowds. I think they want part of the £5b so go to ensuring that fans are not priced out or go seeking alternative, more authentic affordable football experiences. I suppose it’ll only be a matter of time, then, before Neil Doncaster re-invents the wheel or starts preaching about the importance of full terraces at Scottish TV games, he’s such an original thinker. On the back of Thursday’s match, foreign viewers might be tempted to have a wee look at our game. It would be great, if they did get to view a TV game, that measures had been taken (short of rent-a-crowd) to make sure that there were supporters and atmosphere (not to mention more elevated gantry positions 👿 ). Why can’t TV matches be half-price? Something needs doing if the SPFL is to compete in an already saturated market.

    PS @Cluster One, I was surprised to see the name of the official in bold on the DR back page. But maybe that’s normal. They could have just have left it at ‘match official’. Some get anonymity, others don’t. In this case anonymity might have been wise given the mob mentality.


  49. I like others have supported Stan by registering my disgust at their actions. This is not the first time Stan has gone toe to toe on Twitter with the neanderthals. Stan told them he was black, English and a proud Aston Villa supporter but they weren’t happy with his socio/political argument as it didn’t suit their racist agenda. He was termed a fenian and a Celtic supporter, even after stating he supported Villa. He held his own and more, against the vile excuses for fans and therefore I felt obliged to contact BT and register my disgust. Each and every right thinking individual should consider doing the same.

    We are all Stan Collymore


  50. My complaint to BT.

    “I subscribe to BT Sport.

    Last night I watched the Raith Rovers v Rangers football match on BT Sport. On a number of occasions offensive songs, banned by the Scottish Government, and therefor illegal, were clearly audible on your broadcast. Although I am not one of the targets of those songs, ie I am neither Catholic nor Irish (nor do I support Celtic), I do find them offensive and know, as a fact, that they do incite violence.

    I believe that BT Sport withdrew an invitation to Stan Collymore due to tweets he’d made condemning the actions of Rangers supporters at a recent match involving Rangers and Celtic. I cannot imagine how any right minded people, and particularly those governing a national broadcaster, could fail to agree with Mr Collymore’s stance.

    Can you advise me whether or not BT Sport, or indeed the whole of BT Television, agree that something should be done to eradicate this blight on Scottish football, and Scotland, or do you side with those who continue to sing their illegal songs of hate? Your actions so far suggest it is the latter.

    Instead of dumping pundits prepared to stand up to the bully-boys in order to bring a hitherto taboo wrong into the public arena, perhaps BT should commission a documentary showing how this culture of hate is ingrained in Scotland, all the way to the very top of it’s society. I’d welcome the songs that both sides of the divide belt out being investigated and the part played by the football clubs of Scotland, and particularly the SFA and successive league bodies, in allowing this sore to fester for some hundred years or more.

    Or perhaps you’d just prefer to avoid the issue like so many before you?

    I wonder if BT has the integrity and ability to respond fully to my complaint and state your stance on sectarian and hate filled songs being transmitted in your broadcasts?

    For the record, I am a contributor to TSFM (The Scottish Football Monitor) and to my own club’s fan website. I will be posting this complaint on both and updating them with any response, or lack of!”


  51. We’ve been thinking about creating a Wikipaedia page to set out much of our archive material in a logical and user-friendly way. Of course there are all sorts of ways of doing it, but I thought I would ask Wiki themselves, via their online help, about our suitability. As you can see, the new media is very heavily burdened with old media views – particularly who is regarded as a reliable source.

    We still plan to revamp the site of course, but this may or may not give you an insight into the thinking of others …

    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    [11:08] What do you need help with?

    [11:08] I want to add a wiki page which summarises key information about a football organisation called The Scottish Football Monitor

    [11:09] We are a fan pressure group and I am worried about the neutrality condition for wikapaedia

    [11:13] Understandable

    [11:13] Any articles you are especially concerned about?

    [11:15] No. There is absolutely no defamatory material, although our reason for being in existence is to provide an alternative view of our sport than that which is vailable through the mainstream media

    [11:16] So there is a lot of opinion and some controversy amongst people who don’t share our view.

    [11:16] We have an active and thriving WordPress site, but we have a huge archive of information which we thought would be appropriate for a wiki

    [11:18] Our day to day activity (some 30 000 + visits) moves at a fast page and much of the information gets lost in the flow.

    [11:18] tsfm: Well, Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable sources, but unfortunately we don’t consider self-published materials (which includes blogs) reliable.

    [11:20] OK. So what is the difference between say a football club’s fan site (many of which exist in wiki) and ours (which is non-club specific?)

    [11:21] I don’t ask that in an adversarial way. It’s just that I think there are lots os things on partisan sites which are also self published – as are newspapers of course 🙂

    [11:21] tsfm: If you see fan sites being used as sources, feel free to point out. There are obviously bad examples, but they are not the reason to create more like them.

    [11:21] I absolutely agree that one bad example does not mean you should allow more. That was no the subtext of my question at all.

    [11:22] OK. So how would you guys define a reliable source?

    [11:23] For example, our material usually comes from people involved professionally in law, business, fiance and sport.

    [11:24] You may want to give https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources a quick read.

    [11:24] I have viewed that article. My initial observation is that most mainstream media sources would not qualify 🙂

    [11:26] tsfm: Basically, reliable sources are 1) published by reputable publishers with editorial oversight 2) independent, which means they should not be affiliated with the subject

    [11:27] and by your definition, we have both editorial oversight and we are independent of the industry we write about.

    [11:30] tsfm: In contrast, most mainstream media actually do meet the criteria (except tabloids and such). About your site, I’d suggest reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29

    [11:34] I think you’ll find that most mainstream media IS tabloids and such 🙂 – and that much of the rest absolutely would fail your “reliability” test. However you have been helpful. Thanks for that


  52. I have been reading some readers comments in the Herald regarding an article about Dave King. There is something rather sinister in the whitewashing of King’s criminal convictions by many fans and much of the media. It all seems to surround his status as a ‘real’ Rangers man. Are we seriously to accept in 2015 that a ‘real’ Rangers man is a better person than others and therefore above criminality? In my view that is what we are being told to accept. King is a convicted criminal – end of story. Also, Rangers people are no better than the rest of us. I am heartily sick of how far football in Scotland lags behind the equality measures we have seen enter other walks of life. Why should we accept someone is a superior being simply because he supports Rangers, when in reality he is nothing other than a tax evading criminal?


  53. TSFM says:
    February 21, 2015 at 11:46 am
    =======================================

    TSFM, would you consider a subscription based site, (say £20 a year), with a thread based forum?


  54. upthehoops says:
    February 21, 2015 at 12:05 pm

    Have you never heard of the ‘Divine Right of Kings’? 🙄


  55. I was at last nights game against The Rangers FC and I must be honest and say that I was not aware of any overtly sectarian chanting, and I was listening out for same. I was sat at some distance from the fans at the back of the away end so perhaps the BT mics picked up the singing better than I did (the old ears aren’t what they used to be). They did sing the usual tunes albeit with different words. If those words were what is being reported then I hope they have the book thrown at them. A permanent disgrace indeed.

    Outside the ground on my walk back home I was however acutely aware of some particularly sectarian singing. And this was happening in full view of police officers but nothing was done. I even had to explain to my 10 year old grandson what it all meant when he asked why they sung those songs. It is tragic that even at his young age he is well aware that he is a “fenian bastard” like his parents and grandparents before him. I can only hope his children and grandchildren grow up in more enlightened times. I doubt I will be around to witness it.


  56. I had never previously realised the pivotal connection between the SFA’s Stewart Regan and Lalit Modi who has shown an interest in buying the critical 26% bloc of Rangers shares held by the mystery overseas investors whose proxy votes are wielded by Easdale.

    Indeed when it was drawn to my attention I first turned to the recent DR piece which I remembered had done a pretty exhaustive piece on Modi’s flamboyant background.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/busted-coke-done-kidnap-banned-5119747

    But there was nothing there so I trawled a bit further and found some interesting pieces in the English Media which as I realised wasn’t in the least unsurprising given the sport involved.

    The connection pre-dates Regan’s announcement as SFA chief executive in July 2010 but not by that much. However it had nothing to do with football but a meeting which rocked the world of cricket.

    It all began on March 31 2010 in the Bukhara Restaurant of the Maurya Hotel in Delhi between Stewart Regan (Yorkshire), Colin Povey (Warwickshire) and David Hodgkiss (Lancashire) and two IMG representatives which allegedly discussed a proposed ‘rebel’ cricketing franchise dubbed ‘Project Victoria’ worth £1.2 billion.

    For those who what to read the nitty gritty there’s plenty online but suffice to say that the minute of the Delhi meeting written by Reagan proved explosive when Regan sent a copy to Giles Clark chairman of the English and Wales Cricket Board.

    Writs and counter writs started flying with various threats of legal action and expulsions from cricket following.

    It’s all pretty explosive and I never realised cricket could be that exciting and the after-shocks reverberate to this day. Essentially the allegation against Modi was that he was plotting to form a rebel Twenty20 league in England.

    The background was published way back in June 2010 by the DT:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/twenty20/ipl/7798055/Lalit-Modi-on-a-collision-course-with-ECB-chairman-Giles-Clarke-and-the-courts.html

    Time has moved on and Stewart Regan left cricket and returned to his first love of football and landed a plum job in Scotland. I wonder if the taste in his mouth has turned to soor plooms with the arrival of Modi on the Scottish football scene? Perhaps there’s unfinished business between the two men?

    After all the DT piece states wrt to Modi’s rapid speech:

    Stewart Regan, the chief executive of Yorkshire whose record of the meeting led to Clarke’s accusation that Modi was in talks with the counties about a breakaway Twenty20 competition, did well to remember all that was said.

    It truly is a small world and I had always just assumed that Reagan had come from a cricketing background. But a look at Wiki made me realise he had football connections including the ‘Old Firm’ that I was unaware of.

    He had worked in the brewing industry for 16 years employed by John Smith, Bass and latterly Coors where he formed a Scottish Division and arranged the major Carling sponsorship deal with the Old Firm. He was also at Bass when they owned Tennents with its long term SFA sponsorship deal.


  57. Allyjambo@11.43 a.m.
    ——
    An excellent letter,allyjambo.
    I’ll get something similar off as soon as I can get toa proper pc.This stupid wee tanblet thingy is doing my nut in!
    Apart from anything else, it lost a post I put on last evening (Oz time).
    Or maybe it was moderated off!


  58. Seriously dispirited to read some of the same old lazy, intellectually dishonest assertions on here today again about “two sides of the same coin” and “two cheeks of the same ****”.

    As I’ve said before, I have no interest in challenging anyone who actually believes that arrant nonsense, because their mind is already made up and nothing – nothing at all – that I, or anyone else, says will convince them otherwise.

    But … if anyone DOES want to read what I think of the whole issue, in some detail, it’s in a long piece I wrote after the Charlie Hebdo attacks, and I’ll post the link although it is not football related, because it covers the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act.

    I am saying it again; there is NO moral equivalence between sectarian and racist singing and singing about a political/military struggle. None. Someone on this site the other day suggested we ban ANY song which ANYONE could find offensive … what’s next? Ban the scoring of a goal?

    I don’t think political chants BELONG in a football stadium … but they are NOT the same as songs about being up the knees in fenian blood.

    Celtic fans, not for nothing, want the OF tag done away with once and for all … the people who CONSTANTLY refer to both clubs as “the same” do the game in this country no favours at all … it is the curtain behind which the gutter rats from last night crawl. It protects them, by casting about for others to blame. It is why NO meaningful action will be taken.

    You want sectarianism out of Scottish football grounds? So do the VAST majority of Celtic AND Rangers fans … making a blanket sweeping assertion about both sets of supporters, as many non Celtic/Rangers fans tend to do, is not JUST lazy … it is counterproductive and damages our efforts to that end.

    Anyway, it’s all in there …

    http://www.commentisntfree.com/in-defence-of-free-expression/


  59. ecobhoy says@12.17 p.m
    ……………….
    Nice line of research.

    and John Gilligan ,of course, was cEO at Tennent’s until recently.
    The business world is,I suppose, kind of
    incestuous,like banking and journalism.
    Important people and men of integrity must sometimes find it hard to avoid being in any way conflicted.
    Shared interests, favours to be called in, that kind of thing.


  60. James Forrest says:
    February 21, 2015 at 12:48 pm

    Celtic fans, not for nothing, want the OF tag done away with once and for all … the people who CONSTANTLY refer to both clubs as “the same” do the game in this country no favours at all … it is the curtain behind which the gutter rats from last night crawl. It protects them, by casting about for others to blame. It is why NO meaningful action will be taken.

    James, do Celtic (the club) want the term done away with? Because that is in their power. The term is a registered trademark formerly owned jointly by Celtic F.C.Limited and The Rangers Football Club plc and since the latter of those organisations is in liquidation that means Celtic OWN the trademark. So start charging the papers every time they use it. It will stop being used quicker than you would know

    http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK0002181523A


  61. James Forrest says:
    February 21, 2015 at 12:48 pm

    I don’t think political chants BELONG in a football stadium … but they are NOT the same as songs about being up the knees in fenian blood

    I think we have to be careful about making an all-encompassing declaration that political chants are incapable of being offensive or not legally actionable simply because the chanters view the chants as having a ‘political’ immunity.

    IMO the right to individual Freedom of Speech is often constrained by the adverse affect that individual right might have on the wider public and also legal restraints wrt the potential criminality of the words uttered.

    However it can often be a very tricky balancing act and made more complex with what should be done when the offending words are replaced by others such as when ‘fenian blood’ is replaced by ‘big trophies’ as seems to be the current favoured substituion.

    However I posted at length the other day on the subject so I won’t rehearse old ground.

    I’ve had a look this morning at that bright and sunny place I can no longer label ‘dark’ just to get a feel for the mood on their song book.

    For me one post in particular said it all:

    If the BB has to be sung it should only be at sc*m games, why the need to sing it at Raith? there’s no need to sing party tunes at these games

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen a clearer illustration that the whole issue is based on sectarian hatred pure and simple. That’s why the Scottish Government must take action!


  62. scottc:

    Celtic’s statements on the issue are there for all to see, and they make it quite plain that they don’t regard the tag as having any relevance.

    If they own the trademark it’s as useless to them as if I woke up tomorrow and found I owned Coca Cola’s … what in Gods name would I do with it?

    If, for example, Celtic tried to “market” the OF under that banner the wave of anger from their own supporters would be enormous.

    Besides, the fans don’t need to take a lead from the club on this one; almost all of us are pretty clear on where we stand. A group of supporters paid for a full page ad in a newspaper to tell the world how strong their feelings are on the issue.

    Myself and other bloggers refuse to use the term. I’ve not used it in connection to these games for over ten years … and there are people who NEVER use it in any context at all.

    Not really sure what more Celtic fans can do on the issue.


  63. James,

    I agree that there is no moral equivalence between sectarian songs and political ones. I do think it is naive to suggest (as some do) that people sing political songs at football matches because they feel they are exercising their right to political protest. As an example from both sides (and I assume for the purposes of argument that the following statement is taken as accurate), the Boys of the Old Brigade and Derry’s Walls are songs which celebrate events in the history of a political struggle, and have no sectarian element to them. Songs of positive sentiment in fact.

    My subjective view of the singing of those songs is that

    1) it’s got bugger all to do with a game of football, and

    2) they are sung in the main by people who have no understanding of or interest in politics whatsoever – just a GIRUY to the other lot – and consequently is sectarian of itself.

    Whether they are sectarian or not though, they give voice and definition to divisions in society, divisions which we all agree cause misery in our wee corner of the globe.

    In the context of a football match, I find them (the songs) appallingly distasteful and unambiguously disassociate myself from the type of person who sings them. In my view this is not the exercise of free speech any more than (as David Leggat claimed) the Hearts fans were at the 2005 SC semi-final.

    We can theorise all we like about free speech (and there’s a much wider argument about whether we actually do effectively enjoy much of it), but in the context of the WoS particularly we need to be thinking creatively and take into account the much wider sociological aspect that is in play. If you think that insisting on the right to that kind of expression at a football match is the over-riding concern here, or that having that right can go even a small way to fixing the sectarian problem we have, then I disagree profoundly with that.

    All that aside, if TSFM is grown-up enough to have these kinds of debates, we need to do it in the spirit of respect for the other view. More than anything else, that lack of respect is the reason for the absence of a resolution thus far. I don’t expect we can fix it, but we could try to make a start.


  64. are BT are broadcasting the singing yet not speaking out when they have the power to do so? Hopefully Stan will bring more visibility south of the border…someone may ask what the clubs and sfa are doing about it ?


  65. scottc says:
    February 21, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    I have mentioned that particulat TM previously although perhaps Green purchased 50% of it from D&P at the same time he purchased 100% of the Rangers TMs as part of the assets and business of Rangers.

    If that isn’t the case then I would assume BDO hold the 50% portion – they may already have sold it to the New Rangers 😆

    Or is this just one of the things that has been brushed under the carpet to legitimise the enduring if not endearing properties of the tag?

    EDIT

    Of course Celtic may well have taken the wise decision to simply retain copyright to prevent anyone else re-registering should it be lapsed.

    That raises issues about who owns the other 50% now and the terms of the contract over use between the parties. Especially if one wanted to use or licence the term and the other didn’t.


  66. I see that the SPFL are to receive a report on last night’s “alleged” sectarian singing by fans of the Ibrox club. May I ask what is the point of this farce, given the SPFL response to a similar performance from the same fans at Hampden a week earlier? Since the club involved ticked all 21 boxes required to escape censure for the Hampden performance, they will surely have the same boxes ticked a week later? I guess “Rangers” are safe as always. But maybe it’s Raith Rovers who maybe failed to tick a few boxes, and will be penalised for the behaviour of the visiting support last night? Would anyone be surprised if that was the outcome? I wouldn’t be even slightly surprised.

    The Scottish senior clubs should be hanging their heads in shame for allowing this entirely predictable situation to develop. They acted in what they believed to be their financial interests, and to hell with rules, or right and wrong, or any such nonsense. They have sown the wind, and now others reap the whirlwind, and the cowardly clubs haven’t even benefited financially.

    There is a complete moral vacuum in Scottish football, in my opinion, which is just highlighted by the events of the last week. This isn’t going to get better, it’s going to get worse, since now the perpetrators have their sense of invulnerability not only reinforced, but vindicated by the most supine governing authorities in any sport, in any country in the world. Is their behaviour going to improve? Why should it? It will get worse. They will push this to the limit, confident of all the protection historically enjoyed by the establishment club.

    What is the answer? Quite simple. 41 clubs need to grow a pair each, and boot their troublesome member not just into touch, but so far out of the ground that this matter is dealt with once and for all. If that means 40,000 or 50,000 or even 500 million fans lost to Scottish football, then tough. They can all go support Chelsea, for all I care. The rest of us can then enjoy a normal, clean sport in relative peace.


  67. TSFM says:

    February 21, 2015 at 1:42 pm
    ———————————-
    Fantastic post imo. Sums up the whole ‘We can sing our war songs, but they can’t sing theirs’ mentality, which regrettably is present even here (judging by the TDs on earlier posts).

    Well done TSFM, a mature approach indeed.

    On another tack, thanks to the poster who provided the address for the BT chairman – my email has gone.


  68. From the BBC Scotland webshite

    “Rangers fans reported to SPFL over sectarian singing

    Rangers face being investigated by the Scottish Professional Football League after its match delegate reported the club’s travelling support at Raith Rovers for alleged sectarian singing.
    The away fans at Friday’s game at Stark Park could be heard chanting offensive songs.
    Delegate Tom Purdie mentioned the chanting in his report on the game, which was live on radio and television.
    It will be up to the SPFL to decide whether any action needs to be taken.
    The league body expects to receive the report at the start of the week.
    Rangers, who won the match 2-1, have been informed about the contents of the match delegate’s report.”

    …………….

    Given that there would have been numerous BBC “journalists”
    at the game, there is No name name attached to this article and no attempt by the BBC to get a journalist who was at the game to make any journalistic statement or comment !!

    I remember a few years ago when “your call” was on and Gordon Smith was covering for Traynor.
    A caller pulled him up about this kind of singing at Ibrox on a regular basis and what did he (Smith) do about it when he was CEO of the SFA.
    Gordon Smith claimed live on radio
    …that he never ever heard the songs sung at Ibrox any time he was at Ibrox – as he “didn’t really listen” to what songs their fans were singing !!!


  69. TSFM:

    I agree with every single word you just said. Every word.

    As I’ve said myself, I don’t think those songs belong at the football, and last night we saw a very clear example of the kind of singing that doesn’t belong ANYWHERE.

    I’m not seeking to score points here. I fully understand – and sympathise – with people who don’t want to hear ANY of this crap any longer … which is why, as I’ve had to repeatedly remind folk, the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act has OVERWHELMING support from the Scottish population at large … I was actually stunned when I realised the extent of that support, but maybe I shouldn’t have been.

    There’s not a person on this site who wants Scottish football to be known the world over for this stuff. It holds us back in every concievable sense. I’ve long suspected both Celtic and Rangers would have been in England 10 years ago but for the reputation of the derby and all the baggage that’s percieved to be carried by supporters.

    I’m not in favour of that either, by the way (I’d rather we made Scottish football better than abandon it altogether) but I can’t help wonder what might have been just the same.

    We’re, all of us here, on the same side on this one … we just have different views on how best to go about it. I’ve written a dozen articles where I’ve BEGGED my fellow Celtic fans to show some common sense on this … I wrote a scathing piece about the “protesters” who thought it was somehow a good idea to interupt the last poppy silence, for example … because it would be better, for everyone, if all this stuff was left at home. It doesn’t help the image of the game.

    Things ARE changing … UEFA’s fines against Celtic fans (NOT for sectarianism as some would have you believe, but under the terms of their ban on political expression) have focussed minds … but not all minds.


  70. Like others, I have emailed the BT Sports chairman.

    As well as informing him that I was withdrawing my subscription I pointed out that the offensive sectarian singing and chanting was predictable for every match involving Rangers, (or whatever they call themselves), therefore every live broadcast was aiding and abetting the criminal offences. By continuing to broadcast this hatred they themselves are complicit. They have the option to mute the sound or ‘pull’ the whole broadcast. Should not Police Scotland take appropriate action against BT Sports?


  71. The most discomfiting aspect of this whole sorry business is that not only did the Hampden match on the 1st of February fail to elicit a correct response from the SFA, but the game last night will similarly fail to deliver any manner of justice. Any manner of recogntion that when a group of people get together within this context, then such behaviour was never acceptable within our society and never shall be.

    Under what circumstances will all of the clubs and the governing bodies say, no more ? One breath of any of these vile songs, from any side, and the team pays with points docking or exclusion. No whataboutery. Keep your own house in order and be proud to have done so.

    On a related issue, and with specific regards to those who choose to come together, be appalling bigots and then go home and forget about it, unlike their victims who are forced to live their whole lives with the notion that there is a group of people who see themselves as superior and would see their victims’ blood spilt.

    Much more troublesome, even than this, is that many of these recreational bigots are not neanderthal in any way, but are fully paid up members of polite society much of the time, complete with nice houses, nice cars, nice jobs, nice families.

    To suggest that the more despicable songs are only sung by those from the lower echelons of society is a dangerous assumption too far.

    Until such times as the people who spend the rest of their lives mixing in nicely with society are forced to look in the mirror and consider the creature which they temporarily create when with their own, the business of sectarian singing stands no prospect of being consigned to history.

    We are some way away from ridding ourselves of this malign influence within our society.

Comments are closed.