Good Afternoon.
Announcing outstanding financial successes for Rangers PLC the then Chairman of the club opened his Chairman’s report in the annual financial statements with the following words:
“Last summer I explained that the Club, after many years of significant investment in our playing squad
and more recently in our state of the art facility at Murray Park, had embarked on a three year business
plan to stabilise and improve the Club’s finances. The plan also recognised the need to react to the
challenging economic conditions facing football clubs around the world.
Following a trend over a number of years of increasing year on year losses, I am pleased to report that
in the first year of this plan we have made important progress by reversing this trend. Our trading loss
for last year of £11.2m reflects a £7.9m improvement versus the £19.1m loss for the previous year and
although it will take more time to completely reach our goals, this is a key milestone. We also intend to
make significant further progress by the end of the current financial year. This improvement is the
consequence of having a solid strategy and the commitment and energy to implement the changes it requires”
Later on in the same statement the chairman would add:
“Another key part of our plan is associated with the Rangers brand and our Retail Division goes from strength to strength. Our financial results this year have been significantly enhanced by an outstanding performance in merchandising Rangers products, in particular replica kit, which makes our Retail Division one of the most successful in Europe.”
In the same set of financial reports, the CEO would report:
“To further strengthen Rangers hospitality portfolio, a new dedicated sponsor’s lounge was unveiled this season. The Carling Lounge is a first for the Club and was developed in conjunction with our new sponsor, Carling. ”
and
“Our innovative events programme continues to grow and this year saw a record number of official events including the highly successful annual Hall of Fame Awards Ceremony, Player of the Year and 50 Championships Gala Dinner, all of which catered for up to 1000 guests.
At Rangers, we continually develop our portfolio of products and as a key area of income for the Club, we evaluate the market for new revenue opportunities on an ongoing basis in order to exceed our existing and potential customer expectations and needs.
Demand for season tickets reached an all time high last season with a record 42,508 season ticket holders in comparison with the previous season`s figure of 40,320. Over 36,000 of these season ticket holders renewed for this season – a record number.
For the new season, we are delighted to welcome brewing giant, Carling on board as our Official Club sponsor. Carling is one of the UK’s leading consumer brands with a proven track record in football sponsorship.
The Club also continues to work with a number of multinational blue chip brands such as National Car Rental, Sony Playstation 2, Bank of Scotland and Coca-Cola. This year, we will also experience the evolution of the Honda deal via Hyndland Honda and welcome the mobile communications giant T-Mobile to our ranks.”.
The year was 2003 and in the previous 24 months Rangers Football Club, owned and operated as a private fiefdom by Sir David Murray, had made operational losses of some £30 million.
Yes – 30 MILLION POUNDS.
Of course the chairman’s report for 2003 was written by John F Mclelland CBE and the CEO was one Martin Bain Esq.
As Mr Mclelland clearly stated, by 2003 the club already had a trend of increasing year on year losses covering a number of years and was losing annual sums which stretched into millions, if not tens of millions, of pounds.
However, the acquisition of Rangers Football Club was absolutely vital to David Murray’s personal business growth, and his complete control of the club as his own private business key was more important than any other business decision he had made before buying Rangers or since.
When he persuaded Gavin Masterton to finance 100% of the purchase price of the club, Murray had his finest business moment.
By getting control of Rangers, Murray was able to offer entertainment, hospitality, seeming privilege and bestow favour on others in a way that was hitherto undreamed of, and he bestowed that largesse on any number of “existing and potential clients” and contacts – be they the clients and contacts related to Rangers Football Club or the existing and potential clients of David Murray, his businesses, his banks, or anyone in any field that he chose to court for the purposes of potential business.
His business.
It wasn’t only journalists who benefited from the succulent lamb treatment.
Accountants,lawyers, surveyors, broadcasters, football officials, people in industry and construction, utilities, financiers and other areas of business were all invited inside the sacred House of Murray and given access to the great man of business “and owner of Rangers” while attending the “record number of official (hospitality) events”.
Twelve months on from when John McLelland made those statements in the 2003 accounts, David Murray was back in the chair at Ibrox and he presented the 2004 financials.
In the intervening 12 months Rangers had gained an additional £10 million from Champions League income and had received £8.6 million in transfer fees from the sale of Messrs Ferguson, Amoruso and McCann. Not only that, the Rangers board had managed to reduce the club’s wage bill by £5 million. Taking all three figures together comes to some £23.6 million in extra income or savings.
Yet, the accounts for 2004 showed that the club made an operational loss of almost £6 million and overall debt had risen by an additional £7 million to £97.4 million.
However, the 2004 accounts were also interesting for another reason.
Rangers PLC had introduced payments “to employees trusts” into their accounts for the first time in 2001 and in that year they had paid £1million into those trusts. Just three years later, the trust payments recorded in the accounts had risen to £7.3 million per annum — or to put it another way to 25% of the annual wage bill though no one in Scottish Football asked any questions about that!
By the following year, the chairman announced that the 2004 operational loss had in fact been £10.4million but that the good news was that the 2005 operational loss was only £7.8 million. However Rangers were able to post a profit before taxation if they included the money obtained from transfers (£8.4 million) and the inclusion of an extraordinary profit of £14,999,999 made on buying back the shares of a subsidiary company for £1 which they had previously sold for £15 million.
All of which added up to a whopping great profit of ……… £12.4 million!
I will leave you to do the maths on 2005.
Oh and of course these accounts included the detail that 3000 Rangers fans had joined David Murray in participating in the November ’94 share issue where the club managed to raise £51,430,995 in fresh capital most of which was provided by Mr Murray… sorry I mean MIH ….. sorry that should read Bank of Scotland …… or their shareholders……. or should that be the public purse?
The notable items in the 2006 accounts included the announcement of a ten year deal with JJB Sports to take over the merchandising operation of the club and increased revenue from an extended run in the Champion’s League. However, the profit before tax was declared at only£0.1 million in comparison to the £12.4 million of the year before but then again that £12.4 million had included player sales of £8.4 million and the £15 million sweety bonus from the repurchase of ones own former subsidiary shares for £1.
Jumping to 2008 Rangers saw a record year in terms of turnover which had risen to £64.5 million which enabled the company to record a profit on ordinary activities before taxation of £6.57 million although it should be pointed out that wages and bonuses were up at 77% of turnover and that a big factor in the Rangers income stream was corporate hospitality and the top line of income was shown as “gate receipts and hospitality”.
However, 2009 saw a calamitous set of figures. Whilst Alastair Johnston tried to put a brave chairman’s face on it, the year saw an operating loss of £17.325 million which was softened only by player disposals leading to a loss before taxation of a mere £14.085 million.
Fortunately Sir David did not have to report these figures as he chose to stand down as chairman in August and so Johnston stepped in and announced that he was deeply honoured to do so.
In 2010, the income stream jumped from £39.7 million to over £56 million with the result that the club showed a profit before taxation of £4.209 million.
However, by that time the corporate hospitality ticket that was Rangers Football Club was done for as a result of matters that had nothing to do with events on the football field in the main.
First, the emergence of the Fergus McCann run Celtic had brought a real business and sporting challenge. This was something that Murray had not previously faced in the football business.
Second,the Bank of Scotland had gone bust and Lloyds could not and would not allow Murray to continually borrow vast sums of money on the basis of revalued assets and outrageous hospitality.
Third, the UEFA fair play rules came into being and demanded that clubs at least act on a semblance of proper corporate governance and fiscal propriety.
Lastly,Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tightened up the law on the use of EBT’s which meant that Rangers could no longer afford to buy in the players that brought almost guaranteed success against domestic opposition.
On average, since 2002 Rangers PLC had lost between £7 million – £8 million per year – or roughly £650,000 per month if you like – yet for the better part of a decade David Murray had been able to persuade the Bank of Scotland that this was a business that was worthy of ever greater financial support or that he himself and his MIH business was of such value that the Banks should support him in supporting the Ibrox club whilst operating in this fashion.
Of course, had Murray’s Rangers paid tax on all player remunerations then the losses would have been far larger.
Meanwhile, all the other clubs in Scottish football who banked with the Bank of Scotland faced funding cuts and demands for repayment with the bank publicly proclaiming that it was overexposed to the football market in Scotland.
But no one asked any questions about why the bank should act one way with Murray’s club but another way with all others. No one in football, no one in the media and no one from the world of business.
Looking back,it is hard to imagine a business which has been run on such a consistent loss making basis being allowed to continue by either its owners or by its bankers. However, a successful and funded Rangers was so important to the Murray group that David Murray was clearly willing to lose millions year after year to keep the Gala dinners and corporate hospitality going.
Rangers were Murray’s big PR vehicle and the club was essentially used by him to open the doors which would allow him to make more money elsewhere on a personal basis and if it meant Rangers cutting every corner and accumulating massive losses, unsustainable losses, then so be it.
Today, the new regime at Ibrox run the current business in a way which clocks up the same colossal annual losses whilst the club competes outwith Scotland’s top division. Each day we hear that the wage bill is unsustainable, that the playing staff are overpaid, that the stadium needs massive investment and that the fans are opposed to the stadium itself being mortgaged and the club being in hawk to lenders.
Yet, in the Murray era the Stadium was revalued time and time again and its revaluation was used as the justification for ever greater borrowing on the Rangers accounts. The playing staff were massively overpaid and financially assisted by the EBT’s and most years the Chairman’s annual statement announced huge losses despite regular claims of record season ticket sales, record hospitality income, European income, shirt sponsorship and the outsourcing of all merchandising to JJB sports instead of Sports Direct.
The comparison between the old business and the current one is clear for all to see.
It should be noted, that since the days of Murray, no major banking institution has agreed to provide the Ibrox business with any banking facilities. Not under Whyte, not under Green, not under anyone.
Yet few ask why that should be.
The destruction of the old Rangers business led those in charge of Scottish football to announce that Armageddon was on the horizon if it had not actually arrived, yet today virtually all Scottish clubs are in a better financial and business state than back in the bad old days of the Bank of Scotland financed SPL. Some have succumbed to insolvency, and others have simply cut their cloth, changed their structure, sought, and in some cases attracted, new owners and moved on in terms of business.
In general, Scottish Football has cleaned house at club level.
Now, David Murray has “cleaned house” in that MIH has bitten the dust and walked down insolvency road.
What is interesting is that the Murray brand still has that capacity to get out a good PR message when it needs to. Despite the MIH pension fund being short of money for some inexplicable reason, last week it was announced that the family controlled Murray Estates had approached those in charge of MIH and had agreed to buy some key MIH assets for something in the region of £13.9 million.
The assets concerned are land banks which at some point will be zoned for planning and which will undoubtedly bring the Murray family considerable profit in the future, with some of those assets already looking as if they will produce a return sooner rather than later.
However, what is not commented upon in the mainstream press is the fact that Murray Estates had the ability to pay £13.9 Million for anything at all and that having that amount of money to spend the Murray camp has chosen not to buy any football club down Govan way.
Perhaps, it has been realised that a football club which loses millions of pounds each year is not such a shrewd investment and that the Murray family money would be better spent elsewhere?
Perhaps, it has been realised that the culture of wining, dining, partying and entertaining to the most lavish and extravagant extent will not result in the banks opening their vaults any more?
Perhaps, it has been realised that the Rangers brand has been so badly damaged over the years that it is no longer the key to the golden door in terms of business, finance and banking and that running a football club in 2015 involves a discipline and a set of skills that David Murray and his team do not have experience of?
What is clear, is that the Murray years at Ibrox were not good for the average Rangers fan in the long term and that when you have a football club – any football club – being run for the private benefit of one rich individual, or group of individuals, then the feelings and passions of the ordinary fan will as often as not be forgotten when that individual or his group choose to move on once they have decided that they no longer wish to play with their toy football club.
David Murray did not make money directly out of Rangers Football Club. He used it as a key to open other doors for him and to get him a seat at other tables and into a different type of “club” altogether. He did not run the club in a day to day fashion that was designed to bring stability and prolonged financial, or playing, success to the club. its investors and its fans. He did not preside over Ibrox during a period of sustained financial gain.
Mike Ashley will not subsidise 2015 version of Rangers to anything like the same extent that the Bank of Scotland did in the 90’s and naughties.
However, Ashley, like Murray, will use his control of the Rangers brand to open doors for him elsewhere in the sports retail market, and he will use the Rangers contract with Sports Direct to make a handsome profit. He will also control all the advertising revenue just as he does at Newcastle. In short, Mr Ashley is only interested in The Rangers with a view to using it as a stepping stone to achieve other things elsewhere.
However, don’t take my word for any of this, take the opinion of someone who knows.
Mr Dave King is quoted today as saying the following about the current board of Directors who are in charge of the current Ibrox holding company.
“History will judge this board as one of the worst the club has ever had. There is not one individual who puts the club above personal interest.”
That is an interesting observation from a man who became a non executive director of the old Rangers holding company in 2000 and who had a front row pew for every set of accounts and all the financial statements referred to above.
Whether or not Mr King is a glib and shameless liar is a matter of South African judicial opinion. Whether or not he can spot someone who puts their own self interest ahead of the interests of Rangers Football Club and the supporters of the club is a matter that should be discussed over some fine wine, some succulent lamb and whatever postprandial entertainment you care to imagine.
I wonder if he has ever read the accounts of Rangers PLC and compared them to the corresponding accounts of MIH for the same period?
neepheid says:
January 23, 2015 at 6:12 pm
https://m.facebook.com/SonsOfStruth/posts/1588045581426564
An interesting piece from Sons of Struth. Obviously I can’t vouch for the accuracy of it.
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A helluva lot of it has appeared on here and other sites in much more detail but it was so long ago you’ve probably forgotten. Some of the info came in CF emails as well.
But it’s nice to see they are slowly catching-up although they may well be too late.
neepheid says:
January 23, 2015 at 6:12 pm
5 0 Rate This
https://m.facebook.com/SonsOfStruth/posts/1588045581426564
An interesting piece from Sons of Struth. Obviously I can’t vouch for the accuracy of it.
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Neephead, not only does Llambias sit as a director – he owns 51% of KBA and I believe his son, Adam Llambias, may be also be employed by “the Bishop”.
Now that the Sons of Struth are starting to catch up – who is going to tell them that their club was liquidated?
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Tartanwulver says:
January 23, 2015 at 7:21 pm
And on footballers and their non-tax from years gone by…right on cue David Conn
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/23/footballers-tax-demands-hmrc
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I have always used the ‘sniff test’ that if someone promises me that they’ll make me money and I don’t need to do anything to earn it then I give it a wide berth especially if it’s a complex scheme which I don’t even understand past the first page.
The watchword is don’t part with money if you can’t nail down the ‘advisor’ if it all goes tits up and ignore recommendations from pals about a great financial opportunity because they’ll be on commission so drop them as a pal.
DYOR and take paid independent advice from professionals who aren’t trying to sell you a get-rich-quick or save-a-whack-of-tax scheme.
Sadly sometimes the more cash you have the greedier you get and the easier you can then be taken. Hard hard lessons to be learnt I’m afraid.
Amidst the euphoria of the ‘no security over Ibrox’ hint no one has bothered to ask the obvious question; How then is money now going to come into the club?
It is clear the club needs money urgently but are they expecting a sale of Murray Park?
If that is the case then they won’t get £5M. No it will be more in the region of £3M-£4M and that leaves them back where they are now in two month minus a training facility.
It may also mean that Mike’s lawyers have had a look at the contingent liability and have come to the conclusion that there indeed is a serious case to answer but it has been spun by the board in the best possible terms. Lets face it, if they had come out and said ‘we won’t offer security because we don’t actually think we own it’ may have pushed the fans over the edge.
As for the Hugh Adam interview from the early 2000’s I’m sure he said that payments had been occurring from the ‘MID NINETIES’. Now that could conceivably cover a period of 1994 to 1996. This phrase was glossed over in the subsequent furore and never investigated further by our intrepid media.
I think Anne Budge may regret her outcry re seats being broken by Celtic fans, The Celtic fans who damaged Tynecastle are simpletons, idiots, neanderthals . But reacting to every event will become tiresome eventually.
The glossed over events regarding the rangers Hearts game is much more serious – these two clubs have no major differences. I hope all Celtic fans stay safe and really try to avoid the baited trouble that will present itself. You will besmirch the Celtic name if you get involved, at least, that is how it will be portrayed.
I would rather that all Celtic fans boycotted this game but that will not happen.
redlichtie says:
January 23, 2015 at 7:41 pm
Now that the Sons of Struth are starting to catch up – who is going to tell them that their club was liquidated?
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You are a very cruel man 😯
Jean,
Re your comments about Ms. Budge’s selectivity in condemning songs at Tynecastle and Ibrox.
Part of the lunacy of the OB law is, behaviour lible to cause offence to ” a reasonable person”.
If that is correct, one must assume that unlike the Tynecastle event, no one was offended at Ibrox, whilst listening to the BBs and the Blood
Even if it was totally acceptable to all in the ground, the chorus’ were also audible via television.
Covered Knee ditty.
I’m sure there must have been someone of a Hearts persuasion who would find such stuff reprehensible and draw the club’s attention to it.
If so, why did her statement not reflect that?
Perhaps the excellent Easyjambo or Allyjambo can shed some light.
Is bobby madden the only ref at the sfa?
If Anne Budge sorted out the singing at tynecastle , especially against some teams, that would be a real change…but it would take some effort from her, and bans.
One thing that Budge must be applauded for is that she took the complaints of fans seriously and has obviously conducted a pretty wide and detailed investigation and she has communicated her view back to the fans.
She has also taken steps to ensure that many of the problems shouldn’t happen again.
As to the whataboutery about the Celtic match I have no dobt there were quite a few problems that day mainly through drink on both sides.
In view of the forthcoming Celtic Rangers game I think she has done Scottish Football a real service by putting the Authorities on red alert.
And she has shown what answers supporters of all clubs should be provided with in the event of incidents which happen at a game.
She may well end-up on bringing the game in to disreputed charges from the SFA and I reckon a pincer movement from her and Ashley will easily see them run out of town and good riddance too.
redlichtie says:
January 23, 2015 at 7:41 pm
3 0 Rate This
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Ouch!
mcfc says:
January 23, 2015 at 5:28 pm
MSP Inadvertently Asks a Salient Question.
Business Minister Fergus Ewing: “It’s deplorable behaviour and calls in to question whether Mike Ashley is a fit and proper person to own a football club according to the SFA rules. He is not someone I would want taking over any Scottish institution given how he’s treated these workers.”
Fergus should remember that question, it could come in handy for other buyers and directors: past, present and future.
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Exactly mcfc. If this statement was made to a journalist surely the response should have been “and how would you categorise someone with 41 convictions for tax fraud and a less than honest approach according to the local judiciary?”.
But of course that would be beyond the SMSM. Is it possible someone might actually now ask such a thing?
Scottish Football needs the SMSM to follow the first few journalists starting to write truthfully and comprehensively on this whole subject.
I was thinking again about DK’s EGM press release and the comment on the current NOMAD.
His statement that W H Ireland were to be replaced suggests to me that they had already signalled they would not be able to accept DK’s suitability as a director and if pushed would resign.
This was perhaps DK making a virtue out of necessity.
But does having the confidence to announce this follow from an informal indication that the SPFL/SFA would have no problem with such a Board room development?
Surely the SPFL/SFA should step in to avoid a waste of substantial and scarce funds on holding an EGM in Govan? There is surely no point in holding the EGM if DK is not seen as a fit and proper person.
Maybe a direct request from the Govan club to the SPFL/SFA on the subject would be a prudent action?
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
ThomTheThim says: January 23, 2015 at 7:50 pm
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The general consensus (two thirds?) on a Hearts message board is that Ann Budge got it right. The other third think she hasn’t gone far enough. I personally would have preferred that she went further and condemned the behaviour and songbook (of both sets of fans).
I don’t care if it becomes tiresome if she keeps on going public with her concerns. If it helps weed out the bigots both from Hearts and other clubs’ fans then its all positive from my viewpoint.
Ann Budge has been refreshingly different in her approach to such issues from her predecessors and other clubs’ execs, who have generally chosen the path of least resistance and said nothing.
More power to her pen or keyboard skills.
When the far more experienced Celtic CEO (who now has a key position within the SFA) can throw off the west coast problem and speak out with truth, clarity,openness and transparency with regards to the problems in Scottish football and his clubs views on certain matters that take up most time on this site then I’ll be happy to listen to Hoops fans lecturing Ms Budge about what should and should not be said.
easyJambo says:
January 23, 2015 at 8:25 pm
ThomTheThim says:
January 23, 2015 at 7:50 pm
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I don’t care if it becomes tiresome if she keeps on going public with her concerns. If it helps weed out the bigots both from Hearts and other clubs’ fans then its all positive from my viewpoint.
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I had to laugh at the ‘tiresome’ remark. Budge has obviously pressed a few buttons in the hierarchy of other clubs.
Gawd if she doesn’t shut-up supporters of other clubs might start to expect answers to their complaints which are usually ignored.
I don’t actually care if she gets bits wrong – she is making a real difference and bringing a bit of transparency to Scottish Football. Only those who want to do cozy deals in Hampden back rooms could possibly have an objection.
Scottish Football needs Anne Budge to be cloned ❗
easyJambo says:
January 23, 2015 at 8:25 pm
6 0 Rate This
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One aspect I also would like her to have gone further on. Hearts seem to have benignly accepted the undersoil heating was on without asking how long. I don’t really expect they will get a truthful answer but they ought to be pursuing. Like others I don’t disagree with her statement after the Celtic visit to Tynie
ecobhoy says:
January 23, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Yes indeed, hopefully Ms Budge has started something that other clubs will adopt and expand, who knows, it might even catch on at the SFA/SPFL level. Will we always like the answers? Of course not, but seeing fans treated as grown ups, and their questions answered, is a refreshing change.
Re Ibrox security
If it does turn out that the RRM have stitched King up, by doing a deal with Ashley & the board, it will be among the funniest moments in this whole tale.
It would also solve a couple of pressing issues for the SFA/SPFL, so, if it is true, I would not be in the least surprised, if Murray Minor were given the discretionary nod on the fit and proper front, providing he gets past the NOMAD et al.
Loyalty, you can’t bank it in a savings account, or wear it like a Rangers blazer
I totally respect Ann Budge’s right to reply re incidents at any match in which Hearts are involved. I applaud her format in answering fans’ questions and would greatly appreciate the same transparency and accountability from all clubs.
My point is all such comments have to be consistent, fair and stick to that format.
tykebhoy says:
January 23, 2015 at 8:53 pm
easyJambo says:
January 23, 2015 at 8:25 pm
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One aspect I also would like her to have gone further on. Hearts seem to have benignly accepted the undersoil heating was on without asking how long. I don’t really expect they will get a truthful answer but they ought to be pursuing. Like others I don’t disagree with her statement after the Celtic visit to Tynie
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I have no doubt the heating was turned on late. But I think we have to be realistic and accept that there is no way Budge can independently check what Rangers have told her.
Funny I’ve never actually pictured Budge as ‘benign’ but more like spitting tacks when it comes to defending her beloved Hearts 😆
ecobhoy says:
January 23, 2015 at 1:53 pm
Even if these schemes start-off as politically ‘neutral’ they can often turn into political hot-potatoes 🙄
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True
The first really big post-war house price bubble was between 1970 and 1973, probably largely as a result of this subsidy (MIRAS)
In his 1983 Budget Geoffrey Howe raised the tax allowance from £25,000 to £30,000. Unmarried couples with joint mortgages could pool their allowances to £60,000, a provision known as Multiple Mortgage In the 1988 Budget, Nigel Lawson ended the option to pool allowances from August 1988.
When it was removed in 2000 Gordon brown said it was a "middle class perk". 😯 ( in the absence of hot potato smiley)
ThomTheThim says:
January 23, 2015 at 9:21 pm
I for one don’t give a toss whether singing is sectarian or political. Sensible folk go to the game to watch football.
Take the other stuff to George Square or The Mound and do it there so the rest of us can hey some peace.
TallBoy Poppy says:
January 23, 2015 at 9:20 pm
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The Sons of Struth did have the Kieth Bishop invoice up earlier, but it looks as if it’s been pulled. Did anybody save it, and how much was it for; 30 or 300 thousand?
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I’ve copied the article, but haven’t seen the invoice. The article claims it was for £300k.
The Sons of Struth allegation hinges on an invoice from KBA. Someone should tell them that £27,000.00 is twenty-seven thousand pounds and no pence, not two hundred and seventy thousand pounds. Might just make a wee dent in their theory.
@eco I think you have firmly hit the nail on the head. Benign she is not, so why not even a hint at skepticism along the lines of “timings of which may be questionable”.
It’s pretty much a cast iron certainty that the speed the leccy meter was whizzing round influenced the timing of the switch-on over the forecast weather. It appears only Raith are wise to the money to keep the lights, or should that be heating, on is knowingly in short supply to those at Ibrox who can decide how its spent
MIRAS was originally balanced by income tax being paid on the notional benefit of not paying rent for the house in which one lived. The latter was abolished long before MIRAS. The tax relief was set at the value of an average home then limited to the first 30000 as a way to let it either on the vine. Nearly all property tax seems to work counter to the original intent of the lawmakers.
I see references above to the loans against book value of assets compared to market value. These are predicated on different assumptions. The former is a replacement cost the latter an exchange value. The replacement cost approach is infinitely adjustable as with all valuations it all depends on the assumptions used. I taught this stuff and can bore at length on it…
neepheid says:
January 23, 2015 at 9:31 pm
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TallBoy Poppy says:
January 23, 2015 at 9:20 pm
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The Sons of Struth did have the Kieth Bishop invoice up earlier, but it looks as if it’s been pulled. Did anybody save it, and how much was it for; 30 or 300 thousand?
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I’ve copied the article, but haven’t seen the invoice. The article claims it was for £300k.
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I’ve just now found a copy of the actual invoice, which is for £27,000 + £5400 VAT, it’s for “PR & Media Fees, 1/1/2013 to 31/3/2013”. The date is 13/12/2012, issued by KBA to TRFC. I think it can still be viewed in the SoS facebook album.
Apparently the figure of £300k is the total paid by TRFC to KBA, which makes sense, since the invoice appears to be a regular quarterly payment.
Anne budge made a point of openly accepting that some of the witless agitation that contributed to the problems faced came from both sets of supporters.
Different strokes indeed.
Paul Lewis @paullewismoney · 27m27 minutes ago
Some tax dodging footballers facing ruin among 33,000 facing HMRC crack down on £5bn in avoidance schemes http://goo.gl/9lWaw3
Found it neephead, thanks. So that’s 10 quarterly payments of £27,000 which would take us back to June 2012?
ThomTheThim says:
January 23, 2015 at 9:21 pm
However, she set her terms of reference after the Tynecastle game, but refrained from addressing them in the recent game at Ibrox.
She was the one to go public.
Her statement today was not much more than a vote of confidence to all the authorities involved and her easy acceptance of the fatuous excuses offered for (a) the pitch being unplayable, (b) the approaches being ungritted (c) disgorging the away fans simultaneously with the home fans, even though the original plan was to hold them back at full time.
In the days of ten day weather forecasts, it is unbelievable that the officials were unaware of how the evening weather would unfold.
I go back to my opening point.
After Tynecastle, she mentioned seat damage, grafitti and sectarian(?) singing and publically called out Celtic.
Even though she did not produce evidence of seat damage or graffiti . The singing was not sectarian, it is political.
Today she ignored the audible sectarian stuff, ignored the attack on the fan and the bricking of the bus.
Diff’rent strokes for diff’rent folks, Anne.
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Well she’s certainly rattled your cage.
I’m obviously under a misunderstanding on what Budge’s role actually was. I didn’t think she was some kind of UN Observer covering all the various trouble spots that erupted at Ibrox many of which had nothing to do with the actual football match or the fans watching it.
Hearts obviously receibed complaints after the game and she decided to investigate to the best of her ability and communicate her findings to her fan base.
She is not rersponsible for the weather nor how Rangers dealt with the consequences of it. Her only remit is how that impacted on Hearts supporters.
Police and security at the stadium that night had a fairly unique set of circumstances: Really poor weather conditions; home fans not at the game laying siege to bits of the stadium; pissed off home and away supporters inside because the game had been abandoned; other home supporters inside pissed off at the Board.
It was a heady mix and a recipe for a potential f*ck-up with people injured.
Rightly or wrongly the supporters left together – That was a decision beyond her control or even input afaik. However I’m not as sure as you that the decision had been taken when the game was abandoned about how they would exit if the game had finished at the normal time. In any case it doesn’t mean anything because it didn’t happen.
Your faith in 10-day weather forecasts for deciding whether a game should be played or not is quite touching. In my experience the one that usually counts is the 24-hour one. If there is any adverse weather that could affect the game then it is closely monitord from that point.
have you actually checked the forecasts for Friday night against what actually happened. I was in Glasgow and conditions did change rapidly. Whether they were in line with the forecast or not I don’t know.
As to your not sectarian but political – well anyone can play that game because as we all know: ‘One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedon fighter’. I simply have no time for sectarian or political singing at a football match and I’m glad that I’m in the vast majority at Parkhead on that one.
I thought the attack on the bus was dealt with but I suppose it depends how you read her statement. But if you go back and re-read her statement it seems quite clear she discussed the matter with the police to get assurances with regards to the rematch.
After the Hearts Game she was quite right to mention sectarian singing because it was he stadium it happened in and she has a responsibility wrt that with the football authorities. She mentioned damaged seats because it was her stadium as with the disgusting grafitti which some claim to be ‘alleged’. Having seen the media pictures of the sprayed toilet door there was nothing alleged about it and it was very nasty grafitti.
As to sectarian singing at Ibrox that’s between the club and the football authorities and not an issue for her.
And as to ‘she was the one to go public’ – all I can say is more power to her elbow and I hope she’ll continue to go public instead of ignoring the serious problems that poison our game like most other clubs.
I would finish on your claim that she ‘publically called out Celtic’. Utter nonsense ❗ She called out the drunks and hooligans who besmirch the name and traditions of our great club and who aren’t wanted or needed as supporters.
And that goes for the political and sectarian singers as well! I go to a football match to watch football – pure and simple. I have strong political beliefs and have been very politically active throughout my life but football is football IMO.
TallBoy Poppy says:
January 23, 2015 at 10:05 pm
1 0 Rate This
Found it neephead, thanks. So that’s 10 quarterly payments of £27,000 which would take us back to June 2012?
===================
Yes, I’m guessing that the SoS figure of £300k is made up of 10 or maybe 11 quarterly payments. They can’t go back further than June 2012, since that’s when TRFC started trading.
Ecobhoy,
Sorry, but you are so off the mark that it is impossible to even engage.
However, you say she was not the UN observer, charged with aspects surrounding the actual game, but she devoted most of her comments on those.
If you read her stuff you may deduce that the original plan was to delay the Hearts fans’ exit.
You deliberately ridicule my point re ten day weather forecasts, against being able to anticipate dropping temperatures on a January night.
You further ignore my rejection of sectarian and political renderings at football matches. I have no time for them and I mentioned ” political” because no matter how offensive some people find them and I can understand that, political is what they are.
No, my friend, your reply to new falls well short of your usual standard and appears to be that you are just conducting a study in perversity.
NB
I respect and enjoy your contributions here, but I’m afraid your recent one is well below your standard.
It seems that every time Ann Budge opens her mouth that some Celtic fans are conducting a litnus test to ascertain who her big team is.
Whatabouttery is frankly detestable in this situation. My own opinion on the Budge position today is that it was fairly temperate, but fully engaged with the (Hearts) support, and on that basis a hitherto unseen approach to fan relations.
If people are looking around for club officials who are supporting TRFC in their efforts to get back to “their rightful place” etc, they should perhaps be looking a whole lot closer to home than Tynecastle.
Budge’s statement today was in direct response to questions that Hearts fans put to her. Her intervention after the Celtic visit to Tynecastle was not in response to Hearts fans. To compare the two situations is to adopt the same paradigm we all allegedly reject.
Criticism of one half of the two big Glasgow clubs does not automatically imply praise for the other.
The substance of Ann Budge’s statement is of course fair game for comment, but to label it disgraceful or as proof of anti-Celtic sentiment is almost beyond parody. Similarly, reaction to the whatabouttery which only amounts to a snideswipe (sic) at all Celtic fans on here is equally detestable in the light of our ethos.
Argue sensibly or go away please. I have no doubt that our non-partisan experiment is a tough one to accomplish, but even if it means our contributor base is halved, we are determined that it will be accomplished.
On the Anne budge thing, good on her for continuing to push the buttons. Keep it up!
As for the ‘whataboutery’ relating to the last statement about Celtic fans, IMO they are two different set of circumstances and should be seen as such and not compared. If there had been no incident involving the fans from Celtic, would anyone have had a problem with the statement? Although I sympathise to a certain extent as we do feel that our club comes in for more than its fair share of attacks, some of us could be showing a little bit too much sensitivity.
My only concern with the statement (from a Hearts fans point of view) is just how much it moves the argument or concerns forward. Put it this way, if you replaced the team header from HEARTS to RANGERS and the colour scheme to RED, WHITE and BLUE, it could easily be a communication from Rangers Media.
TSFM
Budge’s statement today was in direct response to questions that Hearts fans put to her
===
But are they? Seem to be more like the Q&A on Sky.
To anyone getting their knickers in a twist about the Anne Budge Q&A…then don’t…Anne simply answered questions from her own fan base….nothing more…nothing less…why any fan of any other club should get bothered by that I am not sure…the only people who I believe have a right to reply or Question Anne’s answers are the Hearts fans..
I have yet to see a similar statement from Ibrox on the matter…and in that respect Anne should be applauded…she has tried to apply responsibility in a very difficult and serious situation in a game her club was involved in….
We may have wanted a more surgical response from Anne…however in her roll and responsibility to her club she has to be mindful that this game has to be replayed and if I were a Hearts fan I may not be to happy if her statement was to inflame the up coming re-arranged fixture I might be attending..
So just where is the Ibrox statement on the whole fiasco…the undersoil heating…security arrangements…their supporters behaviour…during and after the abondonment…I am going to hazard a guess that if the SMSM can’t be bothered to shine a light on the matter then I doubt we will ever see one from Ibrox.
Well done Anne Budge.
Take your point Paulmac2, but should it just be left there?
Re Anne Budge. Isn’t the real problem how the media have chosen to present her statements?
Eco.
Don’t want to dwell on this but I am so firmly with you “on your mark” I might as well be in your shoes.
Agree with TSFM @ 10.59 as well. I loved the closer to home bit, although thats maybe a little partisan on my part!
Nuff said.
Has there been a death in the Oxford dictionary,I have not heard or read the word “Absolutely “this year.
yourhavingalaugh says:
January 24, 2015 at 8:36 am
0 0 Rate This
Has there been a death in the Oxford dictionary,I have not heard or read the word “Absolutely “this year.
……………………..
I can honestly tell you
…I think you need to know
…and I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but
…absolutely, hand on heart…there definitely has not !
On the Ann Budge statement.
As a Hearts supporter I was a bit disappointed that she didn’t say a bit more about the state of the pitch and would have preferred it if she’d asked at what time the undersoil heating had been switched on.
Of course, that would have highlighted the state of the Ibrox finances, a jolly wheeze for us, but it would have opened up a ‘pots and kettles’ opportunity for the TRFC board, and MSM apologists, who would no doubt have pointed the finger at Hearts own recent insolvency event, moving the spotlight from TRFC as they so like to do. So maybe she thought she’d leave that one for the football authorities to raise with Mr Llambias. A bit of a wait for that one, I suspect!
She has publicly raised the most urgent matters regarding supporter safety, and I’d imagine safety at the replayed match will be uppermost in her mind. I doubt the Hearts supporter who was kicked by a number of thugs while he lay on the ground thought, as the kicks rained in, that it was terrible that the bears were allowed to get away with their ‘community singing’, or that the supporters on the busses that were attacked were in the least bothered if their attackers had been singing earlier about anything they were ‘up to their knees’ in.
Many on here have made reference, correctly, to the Ibrox club’s supporters violent nature, and how they are out for revenge against the clubs that ‘kicked them while they were down’. 2,000 Hearts supporters will return to Ibrox in the near future, regardless of how things pan out for the bears over the intervening period, the Hearts fans will be hugely outnumbered by an ever more angry support. Does anyone believe it would have been wise for Ann Budge to raise the sectarian singing issue that is so sacrosanct to the vilest and most violent section of the ‘Rangers’ support?
Ann Budge, in an unprecedented move, raised her serious concerns for the safety of her club’s supporters with the police and security officers of TRFC. Just how could she have made her point of being concerned for those supporters safety if she, herself, fanned the flames by citing the sectarian singing? Indeed, there’s a much more critical safety scenario coming up in a couple of weeks time that doesn’t need the sectarian argument raised beforehand, whipped up by an aye ready media, and if the Rangers songbook is the only blot on that match, what a result for public safety that would be!
Ann Budge has taken a couple of small steps down the road to sorting out the hatefest in Scottish football. She’s probably already travelled further down that road than any other club executive has in over 100 years. She’s maybe beginning to realise just why no one has considered doing it before!
@Paulmac2
What you wrote here is probably what much of the silent majority on TSFM has been waiting for. It may be a long wait.
HMRC’s resolve in matters relating to personal taxation would appear not to have lessened. uite the reverse.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/23/footballers-tax-demands-hmrc?CMP=share_btn_fb
Good. The law applied. Firmly and without fear or favour. That’s all we need.
“But, everybody else was doing it, it’s no’ ma fault. I’m just a daft footballer.”
Way, way back – it was predicted on here that the effect of liquidation and all that went with it (e.g. Monsiuer Green’s antics) would be a concentrating mechanism for the extreme hardcore of the Ibrox loyal.
The fact that the return to the old songbook was accompanied by opposition fans getting a kicking and their bus windows tanned is not, IMO, coincidental.
As their club sinks ever further into the mire, and more and more of the decent Rangers fans do walking away, what is left?
At this point in particular, where the long road “back to the top” looks in jeopardy and RRM are failing to establish control, there is a palpable sense of frustration boiling over.
When the mob start singing about being up to their knees in …. blood – be scared. My bet is there are going to be multiple occasions when that blank will be filled in with a label for whoever happens to get in their way.
The poor Jambo that got a kicking the other night may not have been worried about the songbook. I am though.
ThomTheThim says:
January 23, 2015 at 10:53 pm
Ecobhoy,
Sorry, but you are so off the mark that it is impossible to even engage.
However, you say she was not the UN observer, charged with aspects surrounding the actual game, but she devoted most of her comments on those.
If you read her stuff you may deduce that the original plan was to delay the Hearts fans’ exit.
You deliberately ridicule my point re ten day weather forecasts, against being able to anticipate dropping temperatures on a January night.
You further ignore my rejection of sectarian and political renderings at football matches. I have no time for them and I mentioned ” political” because no matter how offensive some people find them and I can understand that, political is what they are.
No, my friend, your reply to new falls well short of your usual standard and appears to be that you are just conducting a study in perversity.
NB
I respect and enjoy your contributions here, but I’m afraid your recent one is well below your standard.
=======================================================
It’s obvious we have totally different ways of looking at the situation.
I tend to think that Budge would have been concentrating on the issues and questions directed at her from her own supporters. They are her constituency and it’s really their decision whether she has done that to their satisfaction.
I personally – even if I disagreed with evey single point she made – would still applaud the fact that she has had the common touch to listen to the concerns of her fans and the gumption to provide a no-nonsense response that doesn’t reek of PR spin and forelock tugging to the Hampden Suits.
If that is proof of my pervesity then so be it. I happen to think she is showing a helluva lot of courage taking on ‘The Old Men’s Club – Hampden Chapter’. I hope some of her male counterparts in Scottish Football are encouraged to find their voice and perhaps other bits of their anatomy which have been missing for a helluva long time IMO.
I have read her statement several times and don’t believe I can deduce what would have happened at the end of the match and neither could she. Decisions such as that would have been the sole responsibility of the Match Commander based on the unfolding circumstances both inside and outside the ground.
I was in Glasgow watching the game with a mixture of Rangers, Celtic and Hearts Supporters and afterwards we were joined by Bears and Jambos from Ibrox.
Lots of discussion, some heated, but no insults or violence and no sectarian or political chants or songs. Sometimes on the internet I find that matters become too minutely examined and the broader perspective that is real life becomes lost.
For what it’s worth I reckon – without a shred of evidence – that Rangers took a chance on the weather following the forecast and thought they could save a bit on the leccy. They gambled and got it wrong IMO.
It’s up to the SFA & SPFL to decide what issues, if any, they think should be investigated arising from the match. I have previously posted on the seeming shortage of in-house security on the night which led to an urgent request to the former security company providing guards. I don’t know how many answered the call.
But it does strike me that the problems wrt parked coaches being attacked could be connected because it’s possible – and I don’t know the answer – that stewards on external duties covering car and coach parking were called away to deal with – at the time – more serious threats to personal safety which were underway.
A lot went wrong IMO with the plan on the night which simply failed to have the flexibility to deal with the various circumstances which arose. That is something that can happen but it was public knowledge that there would be demos inside and outside the ground.
It was a crunch match and every fan with a pulse would be up to hi-do. On top of that fans were delayed by road conditions and agitated and then the game was abandoned after 20 odd minutes of hilarious but dangerous Elephants on Ice.
I think there will be lots of peering into the entrails of this one at Police HQ because all sorts of things were poorly handled and most of the blame IMO lies at the door of Rangers at senior management level coupled with the lack of operating funds.
These are serious issues as life and limb could have been in serious danger. The sensible thing IMO would have been to allow the fans into the stadium to separate the boycotters from attenders and disperse those outside.
The Game should then – never having started – been called off and the Bears moved out the stadium and dispersed leaving escorted Jambos to follow later. I accept there was an issue that with the suddenly worsening road conditions that entailed a possible risk but I believe a smaller one than the route actually chosen.
The reason that all of the above wasn’t and couldn’t be carried out IMO was quite simply a severe lack of police and stewards. There are many reasons for that and I’m sure Police Scotland know they were very lucky last Friday night.
Let’s hope they learn the lessons and parhaps call-back a few of the older wiser heads who actually have personal experience in handling powder-keg games. I have the feeling their input could prove valuable before too long.
Zilch says:
January 24, 2015 at 9:54 am
The fact that the return to the old songbook was accompanied by opposition fans getting a kicking and their bus windows tanned is not, IMO, coincidental.
===============================================
I have seen a number of posts since the game make a reference to the return of the song book.
That has surprised me because the traditional song book has never gone away and been continually sung on their journey.
As usual the SFA, SPFL, and Scottish Government have covered their ears and done nothing. They are simply a disgrace and not fit for purpose.
And neither is every politican from all political parties who are so desperate about not having to find a real job that they cling to tainted votes to keep their snouts in the trough.
As to the SMSM they too have become afflicted by the ‘Scottish Illness’ – selective deafness in public places often when football is being played.
Will it actually take a bloodbath before someone somewhere actually acts and stamps this out on all sides?
I think the criticism of Ann Budge’s statement because it didn’t single out the same sort of things as her previous statement about the Hearts Celtic game rather does miss the point.
She has already spoken about her disgust at sectarian behaviour, so why would she need to repeat her feelings again? Is she now going to be criticised everytime fans display behaviour and she fails to comment?
Presumably people think she must comment because they want to see what they think is “balance”, but that seems to assume that her original complaint was only directed at one clubs fans. In fact I think her statement was intended as a criticism of this behaviour in fans of any club, and rightly so. She is not obliged to repeat herself every time a different clubs fans display one behaviour or another.
Secondly the situations and the purpose of the statements are completely different so direct comparison is pointless. One statement was made based on what she saw with her own eyes, heard with her own ears at her own clubs ground. The other is a response to questions and complaints from fans asking what went on at another ground, questions which she has looked into and attempted to answer, or pass on the answers given.
It seems to me that we are in danger of club loyalties fogging minds again.
I see the build up to next Sunday’s League cup semi has started in the Sun, with a report that Leigh Griffiths has now been charged in connection with a hate song about Rudi Skacel.
Conspiracy theorists will no doubt be on the case shortly.
So Bobby Madden has been handed the fourth officials position at the Aberdeen/Utd semi-final and Craig Thomson the man in the middle at the OK Corral,earlier rumours of the Ibrox season ticket holder getting the bun fight are unfounded,see what I done there.
I have been following the Libyan – Blair scandal in The Guardian which I think is more corrupt than Chilcot’s business, and happened to stray on to the Sports’ pages (usually only English stuff so avoided). It has a long article on tax fiddling in football and the Tax Man’s recent actions which have clawed back vast sums of money, bankrupting ex players in the process. Of course there is a high divorce rate among the high earners so the fickle WAGS have already departed with their share leaving their exes with demands measured in millions. Is this a firm statement of intent? Sanity in the Tax World at last?
Zilch says:
January 24, 2015 at 9:54 am
When I said that the Hearts supporter receiving the kicking wouldn’t be thinking about the Rangers songbook, I wasn’t belittling the disgust you and all Celtic fans hold towards the vile songs (a disgust shared by the majority of decent people who support other clubs), just making the point that there are, actually, things that are more immediate to deal with.
I’m sure there’s many a Celtic supporter been on the receiving end of a kicking from angry bears, but I very much doubt, that at the time, they gave any thought to the ‘songbook’. I can fully understand why these songs bring anger to the Celtic support, and why you would all like them tackled by the authorities, but it is only one of many problems affecting football, and society, and when people are getting assaulted, especially when there’s a very high profile match approaching that will, undoubtedly, spark off a great deal of physical violence, I think all involved should be concentrating on preventing or reducing that violence. They certainly should not introduce discussion of something so contentious to the public arena (particularly at this time), not with our media, at least!
For some reason the Rangers supporters see criticism of their songbook as more challenging than charges of violence and assault, and they react in their usual fashion. There are very clear laws covering violence and assaults that the police can act upon, whereas those covering sectarian singing are very poor and fudged (both sides agree on that, I think). Ann Budge was trying her best to reduce the probability of a repeat of the violence supporters of her club were subjected to (and some may have been involved in), she can reasonably expect the police to deal with this. She may even have raised the subject and had this explained to her, and been asked not to publicise the response for the very reasons I’ve suggested.
Tackling sectarian singing is very important, and long overdue. It may well be a factor in the violence that erupts at matches, particularly between Celtic and RFC/TRFC. It is, though, the violence that must take priority in the minds of the police and is, strangely, the easier crime for them to deal with.
I wonder how the bears would react, and the police for that matter, if Peter Lawwell was to make a statement on the Rangers songbook any time soon? I am not asking this as some sort of whataboutery, merely trying to focus on how there’s a right time for all matters to be discussed publicly, and there’s definitely a wrong time. Only people who would welcome pumped up violence at the upcoming semi final would want to have sectarian singing discussed publicly at this time!
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/mike-ashley-set-hand-rangers-5033080
According to Jackson, Ashley will provide the cash, secured (if at all) on Murray Park, but NOT on the holy of holies, which apparently only Sir David Murray, or those personally blessed and anointed by him, can use as security for loans.
Be ready for the permarage to ratchet up to max in the fairytale land the Bears inhabit, as someone who is not a RRM dares to do them the considerable favour of keeping the lights on. You couldn’t make it up.
If I was Ashley, faced with such ingratitude, I would be pulling the big hoose down on top of their collective thick heads, but I suppose that sort of attitude is why I’m not a billionaire, and Ashley is.
Can’t fathom the hooha on this, the crumbling edifice has been flogged for a quid…..twice.
llyjambo says:
January 24, 2015 at 11:05 am
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Zilch says:
January 24, 2015 at 9:54 am
______________________________________________________
Good points, reasonably made.
My view is that some individuals wearing TRFC shirts ( I won’t call them fans) no doubt rationalise that if they can get away with singing banned songs with impunity in the full glare of the authorities and our national broadcasters, why wouldn’t a similar blind eye be turned if they were setting about a stricken genuine football fan guilty of donning the (in their eyes) the wrong colour shirt.
The elephant in the room is that if our authorities weren’t so craven, the upcoming cup semi – if it went ahead at all – would be played behind closed doors, and the sectarian chanters blamed for this outcome.
That would send the right message to all.
And it probably not too premature of me to say that a fair few innocents would be spared a fair few kickings in the process.
The ‘old firm’ died.
Reqium in pace.
The pretender who would don the mantle of its ‘successor’ fixture has been found wanting before a ball was ever kicked.
A detriment to society.
Scotland’s shame!
easyJambo says:
January 24, 2015 at 10:24 am
23 0 Rate This
I see the build up to next Sunday’s League cup semi has started in the Sun, with a report that Leigh Griffiths has now been charged in connection with a hate song about Rudi Skacel.
Conspiracy theorists will no doubt be on the case shortly.
================================
Don’t know whether you’d call this a conspiracy theory but if no-one else in the pub has been charged with the same offence I’d love to hear the reasoning for it.
Bawsman says:
January 24, 2015 at 11:31 am
In 1989, on the evening prior to Hearts 2nd leg match against Bayern Munich, I had the pleasure to enjoy a moment that showed, to my satisfaction, that what you say is not the case. In a huge, and I mean huge, Bierkeller, packed mostly with Hearts fans, some idiots belonging to a notorious supporters club, started to sing a song from that songbook, almost as soon as the oompah band stopped for an interval. There was a moment of disbelief from the hundreds of supporters there, then anger, then everyone of us burst into the Hearts song, completely drowning out the morons, and they gave up, all looking rather dismayed and unwelcome. Our own songbook is quite limited, so the Hearts song was belted out over and over again, resulting in not a few of the regulars leaving. But there was not one more word of sectarian bile heard in that bierkeller that night.
Again, at a Cup Final best forgotten by Hearts supporters, the 5-1 drubbing by Rangers in 1996, another example of just how wrong you are was displayed. As usual, non-Glasgow club supporters arrived at Hampden long before their OF rivals, and repeated choruses of Hearts songs were belted out. Gradually the other end started to fill and with about 15 minutes left there was enough bears present to start their own singing – the usual sectarian crap. They were still healthily outnumbered and again the Hearts fans drowned them out, spontaneously, until sufficient of their number arrived to make our efforts pointless. Like you, the early door Rangers supporters seemed to expect the Hearts supporters to join in with their songbook, and there was a rather Monty Pythonesque ending to their initial efforts to get the place rocking to ‘The Sash’, rather like the ending to ‘I’m a Lumberjack’, where there’s a gradual stopping of the song by a confused and bemused chorus. Well it reminded me of that anyway. It was the one piece of solace me and my mate had on the bus journey home that day!
There’s no denying that some Hearts supporters do like to see some tenuous link between our club and Rangers, and that they, themselves, are bogits. They are despised by the vast majority of the rest of the support and ridiculed online.
I know that these two examples won’t prove anything to you, or make you change your view of Hearts and it’s supporters, no doubt put together during a lifetime of believing the opposite, but just because there’s no love lost between supporters of my club and yours doesn’t mean there’s any mutual respect between mine and Rangers, any more than Aberdeen fans’ hatred of Rangers means they like Celtic!
I come from a family scarred by the effect of football violence.
That violence was closely linked to the supremacist attitude that infects one side of the cultural / football divide in Glasgow.
The family member that was murdered was a Thistle fan wearing a Thistle scarf going home on a Friday night. This happened decades ago. It is obviously appalling that we have not, as a society, moved on from this.
This is not about Celtic and Rangers. The list of groups that are alleged ‘Rangers-haters’ grows ever longer.
I find the two cheeks argument over-simplistic and innaccurate. The events of last week point towards the truth of that.
The rebirth of a new Rangers complete with the old sectarian / supremacist baggage is the worst thing that could happen to Scottish Football. Armageddon indeed.
“The rebirth of a new Rangers complete with the old sectarian / supremacist baggage is the worst thing that could happen to Scottish Football. Armageddon indeed.”
A fair point, but,
The purpose behind singing sectarian songs at football matches is to offend
The purpose behind singing political songs at football matches is to offend.
In the 21st Century, it would be great if folk could evolve to the point, where they could get behind the idea, that the purpose of going to a football match is to watch the fecking football.
scapaflow says:
January 24, 2015 at 1:07 pm
‘fecking football’
——————
I am offended by your use of the word ‘fecking’! 🙄
It is, of course, a very good point you make 🙂
Should also be remembered that sometimes, probably often, people will use words they don’t believe in themselves purely because they know they will offend others.
Last Friday, the songs sung by the bears were not sung to offend the Hearts supporters, they are sung because it’s in their nature, and their troubles make them forget to try to curtail them (to avoid trouble for their club). They are sung to offend Celtic supporters, even when there’s none there or cameras present! It helps to encourage them, though, that they know nothing will be done about it.
The majority of Hearts fans would not have been offended, just disgusted, by the songs, though offence would have been taken, and intended, by the songs the Hearts fans belted out regarding New Rangers etc! Perhaps this is an indication that the Hearts fans were at fault, but only if you accept that such songs are an excuse for violence.
The bears will forever more be offended, because it’s pretty hard to find an excuse to ban people from singing out words like ‘liquidated’ or ‘no Rangers anymore’, and there’s no way football supporters are ever going to lose the desire to offend their rivals.
That’s the problem with not caring that no one likes you… eventually you do!
scapaflow says:
January 24, 2015 at 1:07 pm
A fair point, but,
The purpose behind singing political songs at football matches is to offend.
In the 21st Century, it would be great if folk could evolve to the point, where they could get behind the idea, that the purpose of going to a football match is to watch the fecking football.
========================================
The consequence of singing political songs may be offence, but that doesn’t mean that offence is the purpose of such songs.
I’d argue that the purpose is more to make a point, or to remember past events, or to warn of the parallels between current and previous events. In fact, there’s so many more valid reasons for singing than solely to cause offence.
Football isn’t snooker, it hasn’t evolved to be enjoyed silently. Its mix of politics and history are what inspires the passion which has kept the sport at the top for over a century.
Stripping out sectarian baggage is a worthwhile aim, but let’s keep perspective and not strip football of its soul at the same time.
@ModgePKR says:
January 24, 2015 at 1:46 pm
Whether something is offensive, is entirely dependent upon the viewpoint of the listener.
Free speech is a precious right, I just wish the knuckle draggers of all persuasions, would exercise a bit of restraint, forlorn hope I know.
“It’s now very common to hear people say ‘I’m rather offended by that’ as if that gives them certain rights. It’s actually nothing more than a whine.
‘I find that offensive’ has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase.
‘I’m offended by that,’ well so ****ing what?”
–Stephen Fry
I can’t agree with Fry’s quote more. Offence is taken rather than given and if you flip that around where does it end?
I’m offended by some people’s beliefs. For example, to me, circumcision is male genital mutilation and is every bit as offensive as female genital mutilation but does that mean I can’t voice that opinion in case someone takes offence?
Freedom of speech cannot be reconciled with laws designed to prevent the cause of offence, and I know which one I’ll choose to defend.
@ModgePKR says:
January 24, 2015 at 2:05 pm
No argument. I campaigned against the OFBA,and I’m still campaigning against it.
Doesn’t mean that people should behave like assholes just because they can
@ModgePKR says:
January 24, 2015 at 1:46 pm
Whether something is offensive, is entirely dependent upon the viewpoint of the listener.
Free speech is a precious right, I just wish the knuckle draggers of all persuasions, would exercise a bit of restraint, forlorn hope I know.
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My follow up post was submitted before I read this one.
I agree with you completely. The ability to hold diametrically opposed viewpoints and to debate them is fundamental to our coexistence and even to our humanity.
I’d opt for respect rather than restraint although perhaps I am also drifting into forlorn hope territory!
Regarding the alleged Leigh Griffiths charge and the conspiracy theories.
The timing of the charge will be where the conspiracy theorists find their ammunition. Why has it taken so long?
The incident was months ago.
Part of the razor gang glorification song’s problem is not that it is sung but that some of the singers mean it literally. Solve that and it might wither away. Like many I have learned loads from my children giving hope for a less poisonous future.
Joethebookie says:
January 24, 2015 at 2:13 pm
14 0 Rate This
Regarding the alleged Leigh Griffiths charge and the conspiracy theories.
The timing of the charge will be where the conspiracy theorists find their ammunition. Why has it taken so long?
The incident was months ago.
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Sometimes the police take a while to conclude their inquiries – fine. However the inquiries could not have hidden the evidence that others in the pub were committing the same alleged offence. How do the police justify charging only one person (if that’s that case).
@ModgePKR says:
January 24, 2015 at 2:05 pm
I’m offended by some people’s beliefs. For example, to me, circumcision is male genital mutilation and is every bit as offensive as female genital mutilation but does that mean I can’t voice that opinion in case someone takes offence?
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I think you have to widen your perspective beyond simply looking at people’s religious beliefs which may actually be founded on good medical grounds.
Sometimes circumcision is the recommended treatment in cases of balanitis and phimosis.
A lot of cultural issues have to do with the environment like in a hot country it makes a lot of sense to bury corpses asap and pig meat can be very dodgy because of the huge number of parasites which can infest them.
We should always try to look beyond a ‘belief’ and understand why and where it emanated from. In the modern age it might no longer be stricly relevant because of refrigeration but it has become entrenched in religious and cultural beliefs.
@ModgePKR says:
January 24, 2015 at 1:46 pm
The consequence of singing political songs may be offence, but that doesn’t mean that offence is the purpose of such songs.
I’d argue that the purpose is more to make a point, or to remember past events, or to warn of the parallels between current and previous events. In fact, there’s so many more valid reasons for singing than solely to cause offence.
Football isn’t snooker, it hasn’t evolved to be enjoyed silently. Its mix of politics and history are what inspires the passion which has kept the sport at the top for over a century.
Stripping out sectarian baggage is a worthwhile aim, but let’s keep perspective and not strip football of its soul at the same time.
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You may well have a point but to persuade me perhaps you could point to political songs which you think make a point relevant to football.
ecobhoy
Always make that assumption about strange customs being a religious pragmatism. Especially so in the case of pork and shellfish.
Indeed the old custom of eating fish on a Friday originated amidst fears that a declining fishing industry was once synonymous with a declining navy. Pre-reformation Tudors I think?
Allyjambo says:
January 24, 2015 at 1:44 pm
That’s the problem with not caring that no one likes you… eventually you do!
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And that’s why the people that care have walked away ❗
Big Pink says:
January 24, 2015 at 6:05 pm
ecobhoy
Always make that assumption about strange customs being a religious pragmatism. Especially so in the case of pork and shellfish.
Indeed the old custom of eating fish on a Friday originated amidst fears that a declining fishing industry was once synonymous with a declining navy. Pre-reformation Tudors I think?
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It’s not often I have to bow to greater age and wisdom these days so I do so willingly on this occasion 😉