It’s not that I’m so smart, it’s just that I stay with problems longer.
Albert Einstein
The recent flurries of activity regarding the mis-governance of the Scottish Football authorities gave us some hope that perhaps the dam was about to be breached. Sadly, this has not proved to be the case. The independent TOG report, which highlighted the deeply flawed nature of the LNS inquiry and drew attention to the anomalous activities of the SFA in awarding Rangers FC a European competition licence in 2011, moved the discussion beyond the shores of Scotland. Subsequently, a letter from UEFA to lawyers representing Celtic shareholders reportedly confirmed that the licence had been awarded in contravention of the rules and protocols of the competition.
The TOG report concluded that there was a prima facie case suggesting that LNS had been misled, or misinformed. It suggested that Nimmo Smith may have been misled by SFA President Campbell Ogilvie when he gave evidence about the EBTs in operation at Ibrox, and that the SFA were unable or unwilling to ensure fair play in the game in Scotland. With respect to sanctions, LNS concluded that all EBTs were lawful and open to other clubs. This was of course factually incorrect, since despite the suspicious and comical FUBAR of the last-minute change to the terms of reference designed to exclude DOS EBTs, LNS still had sight of them.
The facts are pretty damning for the authorities. Rules were dispensed with over the licence issue, during which there appeared to be a curious request (to Rangers!) by the Chief Executive of the SFA for ‘permission’ to explain the SFA decision. On the SPFL side, terms of reference mentioned above were altered at the onset of the LNS inquiry to allow LNS to exclude the DOS EBTs, a strong indication that LNS was not only misled, but that he was deliberately led to the conclusion that the authorities desired.
The facts are there. So too is a very strong suspicion that evidence was falsified, and that erroneous conclusions were arrived at. The SFA/SPFL/MSM response? Silence. The same people who hold up their hands in horror at the IOC’s decision not to impose a blanket ban on Russia for alleged state-sponsored doping COMPLETELY ignore the cover up by our own authorities in the matter of systematic cheating and financial doping on our own doorstep.
The SFA, SPFL, the clubs, and their little helpers in the press are happy to sit by and enable cheating. Why? Because they see it as in their own interests?
If so. it must be personal self interest. What began as an understandable fear that tens of thousands of paying customers would be lost to the game has evolved into a trousers-at-the-ankles, Rixian farce of a cover-up.
There has been not one sentence of coherent rebuttal received from any of the above constituencies. Neither the SFA, the SPFL, the media, nor the clubs have even attempted to give us any justification for what went on.
The SFA are so rudderless and devoid of purpose that the Chief Executive feels justified in telling a group of people that he wouldn’t be motivated to do anything in response to systematic cheating, and an unremarkable former journalist turned PR operative can exclaim in a perfect study of un-self awareness, “I AM THE SFA!!” – whilst the President of that body smiles in senile obeisance, or childlike ignorance.
Yet those who present facts and ask serious questions about their behaviour are portrayed as bampots? If you weren’t a witness to this stuff as it happens, you would scarcely believe it.
There has been not one sentence of coherent rebuttal received from any of the above constituencies. Neither the SFA, the SPFL, the media, nor the clubs have even attempted to give us any justification for what went on.
Celtic have been (somewhat unfairly on occasion) on the wrong end of criticism from those of us who see the honesty of the game as paramount. They are only one club in a host of clubs whose interests have been crapped on by the failure of governance in the game in Scotland – and yet have done nothing to demonstrate their distaste for the rulebreaking.
David Murray may well have started this, but he fled the scene and lost his influence at Hampden long before the finish. Consequently, the clubs have failed the fans – wilfully so.
The Celtic issue though is more complicated. Unfortunately for them, they have a larger, and commensurately more powerful support than most – and that power was exercised by a group of their own shareholders who sought their own path to truth and justice. The fact that those shareholders gathered compelling evidence of wrongdoing at the SFA, took the trouble to set up official communications with the club, and that they then passed on their concerns along with that compelling evidence – certainly compelling enough to UEFA it seems – speaks volumes for their determination.
Our clubs are just not as invested in sporting integrity as the rest of us
That put Celtic in an uncomfortable place, but the fact that not one word of substance has emanated from them in support of those shareholders – despite the words of encouragement they may or may not have issued privately to the guys who took up the cause on the club’s behalf – is a plain enough message that they like their fellow clubs are just not as invested in sporting integrity as the rest of us.
My wholehearted and comprehensive contempt though is not reserved just for Celtic, despite the moral deficiency which has seen them ignore the excellent efforts of their shareholders to compel them to do the right thing.
My contempt is applied equally and liberally among all the clubs, for they are most deserving of it. We needn’t feel betrayed by the lackeys who run the SFA and SPFL. They do the bidding of the clubs – and the clubs alone.
Nor should we see the media as chief villains. The same media routinely print untruths and misinformation on a daily basis to deliberately mislead us on far more important issues than football. Hardly a betrayal from them – just western democracy.
The clubs tell us that ‘we are all in this together’, but in reality their real attitude is ‘us and them’
Hampden Towers
©Reganco
But that is the game they are playing. Playing for time. Time that they hope will cloud the issue, to make it recede as a morning mist, and disappear completely in time for a free business lunch – business as usual.
Like Einstein says, being ready to spend a little more time on a problem pays dividends. Those with the wind of truth behind them don’t have to be particularly clever. They do have to be willing to spend as much time as necessary on the problem, and let the wind take them to where they need to be.
And they will get there, because those vested interests that deny the truth have (as we have shown) NOTHING to say. It is only a matter of time and patience – and staying on the problem.
It needn’t get nasty, it needn’t become abusive, it needn’t become complicated – but it might well get loud.
AULDHEIDAUGUST 10, 2016 at 16:04
Kill Ultra
No conflict. What BRTH says is the understanding we had in 2013.
What happened thereafter with regard to minuting was what happened for the reasons given.
We were not chuffed about it but we could hardly force Celtic to do so.
As regards a lost opportunity to address corruption, not sure how having Celtic vote down the Resolution would have achieved that objective, which is what Res12 ultimately is aiming for.
———————-
“At the 2013 AGM was not “withdrawn” — it has never been withdrawn and it is something that has to be read into the minutes every AGM since.”
Auldheid. There is a clear inference in BRTH’s statement (written in March 2016) that Res12 had been read into the minutes of AGMs 2014 and 2015.
You end your post by saying, “As regards a lost opportunity to address corruption, not sure how having Celtic vote down the Resolution would have achieved that objective, which is what Res12 ultimately is aiming for.”
——————
Auldheid. If Celtic plc had voted down the Resolution, which was a racing certainty to fail anyhow, it would have,at least, brought the plc objectives into the open and exposed it then, almost three years ago, to be part and parcel of the corruption ingrained in Scottish football. Such an action would also have put paid to supporters like in the intervening period entertaining the foolish notion that we might eventually have an honest game. Some hope!
Res 12 has no status, Auldheid. Job done!
———–
AULDHEIDAUGUST 10, 2016 at 16:48
Auldheid. I’ve read all of this before. Long-fingered waffle.
BRTH who would have had a part in the Q&A with Bankier is the same BRTH, the requisitioner, who arbitrarily ‘allowed’ Celtic to withdraw Res 12 in 2013, and the same BRTH who is heavily involved with the plc through the Celtic Foundation. He wouldn’t have been my choice to challenge any backsliding by the club.
WCHARLIE_KELLYAUGUST 10, 2016 at 13:11 12 0 Rate This
Yes it was close between Celtic and the Dons
3 league titles each
1 league cup each
Aberdeen 3 Scottish cups to Celtic 2
A European cup winners cup and European Super cup to Aberdeen
We also won the dryburgh cup in 1981
Things got worse between Aberdeen and Old Rangers when Souness arrived and started to win things. I don’t think we ever got over losing the league at ibrox on the last day in 1991. The press loved to stir things up also.
Incidently when Aberdeen play Sevco next month a lot of fans will be watching how the board play things.If the programme treats this version as a continuation of the old club more than a few won’t be back!
All this talk of Pittodrie in the 80’s when Celtic played there. Myself and two mates went up early one Saturday without tickets, and waited for the supporters buses to come in. Knowing that the buses had to leave early there was a chance of spare tickets and we quickly got three. Then a few pints and off to the game only to see Celtic horsed 4-1!
Perhaps some Aberdeen fans can clarify something for me. The day in question I’m sure they had the Celtic fans in the Beach End of the ground. When I first went to Pittodrie in the mid 70’s the Aberdeen fans were always in that end. Am I correct that they ended up putting Celtic fans in that end prior to the stand that now exists there being built, or is my memory playing tricks on me?
Yes the Beach End was given up to away fans for a few years.(not just Celtic and Rangers)
Madness really having to give up our traditional end really.
One of the reasons was to stop away fans going through the town on match days.
Park on the beach boulevard and straight out of town stopped a lot of the trouble when away fans were housed in the King Street paddock.
Much more civilised and sanitised game these days when you think of some of the stuff that went on in the 70’s early 80’s
Kill Ultra
Now why did I suspect something on those lines?
The fact is res12 was adjourned, not withdrawn and I see it is a waste of time trying to persuade you otherwise.
I suggest we leave it there.
Stadiums. Ibrox.
I,m a bit nervous about this one so I shall sleep on it. Like Merlin did. Good night and god bless.
Another world record for Sevco ?
(A Home tie in a ‘cup’ game . . . have Sevco ever had an away game
since their 1st ever (birth) game Brechin -v- Sevco (not sure if it was Sevco5088 or SevcoScotland)
I’m as suspicious as anyone about the cup draws Sevco keep getting however I can’t see Derek Rae,Sutton or Stewart getting involved with that.
They are just having a lucky spell.
There league fixtures I’m not so sure about.
Bill1903August 10, 2016 at 22:23
‘….I’m as suspicious as anyone about the cup draws Sevco keep getting however I can’t see Derek Rae,Sutton or Stewart getting involved with that.They are just having a lucky spell.There league fixtures I’m not so sure about.’
_______
The really damnable thing about the ‘saga’ is that we now know from the way the Football Authorities dealt with the appalling cheating over many years by SDM’s RFC that we are RIGHT to be suspicious!
How can we put any trust in an organisation that so signally failed to discharge its duty to enforce its own rules against one favoured club, rules that were ruthlessly enforced against other ‘less important’ clubs for even accidental breaches!
Earlier this evening, English and MacIntyre were getting all hung up on the question of whether Jamie thingmajig’s alleged diving was in fact ‘cheating’.
I listened in increasing astonishment as they talked with passion about ‘moral’ cheating , deliberate cheating to gain advantage.
And I thought: these are men who quite brazenly and unquestioningly accept by their silence that the very Football Authorities were hell bent on cheating us all in order to save one monumentally cheating club!
They know that there are very serious questions that should have been asked, and should still be asked about
the ‘Armageddon’ propaganda,
the ‘bullying’ that the late Turnbull Hutton so bravely spoke about,
about the dodgy ‘licence’ granting,
about the wee secret dinners,
and the careful omission of DOS information from the evidence presented to LNS,
and the precise involvement of Dickson
and the personal knowledge of EBTs as used by RFC by a man who subsequently became president of the SFA,having himself received a whopping EBT payment
and the utterly incredible Neville Chamberlain-like caving in to bully-boy Green which gave us the ‘5-Way agreement’
and the disgusting spectacle of a cuckoo club flaunting the honours and titles won, not by them, but by a liquidated club.
These men have not asked any such serious questions.
Yet they prated on about whether jamie walker was cheating, and whether Scott Brown was ‘right’ to call him a ‘cheat’.
Talk about Nero fiddling while Rome burned?
English and MacIntyre and the whole damned SMSM pack would have been the first to write about his exquisite playing, and tetchily brush aside any reference to the ruination of the city with a ‘Fire? What fire?’ before licking Nero’s fundament.
The ‘cheating’ or alleged ‘cheating’ of individual players is as NOTHING compared to the readiness by authorities to condone the cheating of clubs.
A cheating player wastes a game. A cheating club buggers up lots of games.
A cheating Authority destroys the Game itself.
Bill1903 August 10, 2016 at 22:23
I’m as suspicious as anyone about the cup draws Sevco keep getting however I can’t see Derek Rae,Sutton or Stewart getting involved with that. They are just having a lucky spell. There league fixtures I’m not so sure about.
=========================
Statistically they are indeed having a lucky spell.
Since the new club was formed, then have had played cup 43 ties in the three competitions where there has been an open draw for home and away ties. They have been drawn at home 26 times and away 17 times (including tonight’s draw), although home draws have been more prevalent in the two major competitions.
In the Challenge Cup it has been 6 at home and 9 away
In the League Cup is has been 10 at home and 4 away
In the Scottish Cup it has also 10 at home and 4 away.
Their last away draw in the Challenge Cup was at Ayr on 19 Aug 2015 (two home draws since then).
Their last away draw in the League Cup was at Airdrie on 26 Aug 2015 (three home draws since then)
Their last away draw in the Scottish Cup was at Dumbarton on 1 Nov 2014 (five home draws since then)
Their run of home draws in all competitions currently stands at 8 (2xCC, 3xLC, 3xSC), which is a 127/1 chance.
easyJamboAugust 10, 2016 at 23:35
‘…Their run of home draws in all competitions currently stands at 8 (2xCC, 3xLC, 3xSC), which is a 127/1 chance.’
_________
I love it when you come in with the figures,eJ!
I think you might not have seen my immediately preceding post when you posted at 23.35, but , serendipitously, a wee factual statement that points up the ‘luck’ of the draw in the context of discussion about the SFA is quite interesting.
But, of course, not even I , like yourself, would assert that tonight’s ‘draw’ was actually rigged.Nor, I suspect, would most people.
But the suspicion is ( in my case, anyway) that the SFA would be prepared to rig anything-if they thought they could get away with it, while mouthing platitudes about integrity and fair play and judicial panels etc etc….
That’s how badly they damaged themselves by thinking ‘money/RFC too big to fail/establishment club/part of the fabric’, instead of simply dealing with a serially rogue club on the same basis under the rules that they crucified other clubs.
John Clark “…But the suspicion is ( in my case, anyway) that the SFA would be prepared to rig anything-if they thought they could get away with it…”
correct JC. It is not the act itself but the perception of the act that is most damaging.
I notice for instance from the dons boards tonight that it is being noted that there is a Tuesday night, Wednesday and Thursday match before the weekend which just happens to be someone’s first visit to Pittodrie. Now given that it followed someone’s unerring ability to guess the draw, a draw that we accept can’t be fixed what would be the odds….tired legs and all that.
paranoid? Damn right.
JOHN CLARK AUGUST 11, 2016 at 00:02
But, of course, not even I , like yourself, would assert that tonight’s ‘draw’ was actually rigged.Nor, I suspect, would most people.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Not so sure JC
Prior to tonights QF draw
A statistical illiterate like me (see GOOSYGOOSYAUGUST 10, 2016 at 00:40)
…….was able to predict that in the QF draw
….two Championship sides would be drawn together…correct
… two SPL sides would be drawn together …correct
… TRFC would get an easy home draw against a Championship side …correct
… CFC would be drawn away to a Championship side.. (half correct it was a home draw against a Championship side)
And I further predicted
(to be confirmed at the Semi final draw)
TRFC would get a Championship Club in the Semi final
CFC would be drawn against the remaining SPL side
Thus giving TRFC an easy and profitable ride to TRFC v CFC LC final
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
So IMO
The real question is not WHETHER cup draws are rigged in favour of the establishment team
It is HOW the rigging is being done
JOHN CLARKAUGUST 10, 2016 at 23:23
=============================
I’m sure we would all agree that players cheating (and that’s what it is) to gain a penalty is not, and has not been, restricted to one team. However, the media aftermath always seems to become skewed depending on which team gained from the penalty, and which team was unfairly penalised. I did not hear the conversation you refer to on Radio Scotland, but my guess is the fact that in this case Celtic were unfairly penalised then some will clutch at straws to try and justify it. They couldn’t really care less that it was Hearts who benefited. Next time the ‘justification’ may well be because of who benefited. We shall see.
AULDHEIDAUGUST 10, 2016 at 18:58
30 5 Rate This
Kill UltraNow why did I suspect something on those lines?The fact is res12 was adjourned, not withdrawn and I see it is a waste of time trying to persuade you otherwise.I suggest we leave it there.
—————————
Auldheid. Your reply (above) is the second time you have been unwilling to address the arguments I put forward. Your last dismissive reply to me (CQN 17TH JULY 2016 9:53 AM) makes clear who was running the Res12 show. You wrote: “Kill Ultra, BRTH was not brought in by Celtic but had he wanted to kill off Res12 he could have done so more than once so you are talking pish.”
= (30 5 Rate This)
From the above example rating, I’m very disappointed in the one-sided reaction on here to my posts of yesterday. I presented the facts to truly reflect my belief that Res 12 was strangled at birth by the Celtic plc, with the collusion of at least two of the four requisitioners. All of the activity around Res 12 since November 2013 has been nothing but a smokescreen, put in place until such time as Celtic plc helped its erstwhile old firm rivals back to the SPL. There was no democratic representation for the 100 signatories of the resolution. [Moderated]
Great idea, a few post back, getting TE or JS to do Q&A! I doubt TE would be willing to have his honest views on things published anywhere, not even on here! On twitter he is willing to engage with certain topics but suddenly disappears when anything to do with the main topic of conversation are brought up on here!
i’d like to hear BP/Tris put it to KM of BBC, a challenge to debate the points on the phone in? Or even one of our more prolific posters who would be willing to go on and dismantle them! I have tried to call a few times, getting up a bloody ridiculous time, but have never got through? Not that I am the man to put all things forward, but from my time spent on here I certainly think I could have that bunch in a tangle in no time at all
This is something I have said for a while, we need to take the truth out in the open again, it was all the rage back in 2012/13, now not so much! I know they wont let people speak about it, but if we could get some platforms to give us a small amount of time I am sure it would be well used.
On a tangent of sorts, the English media, for all its faults, seems to be a lot more investigative/watchful of the game down there, AT excluded, why hasn’t more been done to get their take on all the SFA shenanigans/OC/NC/LNS etc? If a print journalist took it up I think we’d get progress very quickly.
Great performance by Celtic this morning against Motherwell, i certainly think BR is starting to make his mark on the team and look forward to the CL qualifier next week with a bit more confidence now!
Keep up the great work guys!
Fixed draw or not, it seems a very odd setup that we use numbered balls and a transparent bowl so you can see them! Ok, so those pulling out the balls have the direct line of sight blocked, but its being shown live on tv, it doesn’t take much imagination to see how that could lead to some level of fixing. I noted, for example, after TRFC had their number drawn, the hand of Stewart (I think it was) did alight on ball number 2 (Aberdeen) very briefly before he decided to give it another swirl..
I personally don’t believe Stewart would have anything to do with fixing a draw, but like said above, the behaviour of the football authorities over so many years now means we can’t be anything other than highly distrustful. How can we trust them to be honest? We can’t, not so long as one member of that corrupt group remain inside Hampden.
TAYREDAUGUST 11, 2016 at 08:52
Does the transparent bowl for the cameras not offer… transparency.
These days the human interaction could be removed and the whole thing could be automated like the lottery. However I am sure we would still have folk coming on saying the machine had been tampered with, ball weights varied and speed of the blower altered etc etc.
John Clark August 11, 2016 at 00:02
easyJamboAugust 10, 2016 at 23:35‘…Their run of home draws in all competitions currently stands at 8 (2xCC, 3xLC, 3xSC), which is a 127/1 chance.’_________I love it when you come in with the figures,eJ!
=========================
I made a mistake with my calculation. It should have been 2 to the power 8 chances, not to the power 7. The chances of 8 successive home draws is therefore 255/1. It’s the same probability as tossing a coin 8 times and it comes down heads every time.
EASYJAMBOAUGUST 11, 2016 at 09:26 …
It should have been 2 to the power 8 chances, not to the power 7. The chances of 8 successive home draws is therefore 255/1…
=====================
Purely in the interests of pedantry EJ, I make it 256/1.
But you do highlight a valid point: many football fans are suspicious now of anything emanating from Hampden.
And as for the SFA, how will they ever be “Respected and Trusted to Lead” ?
WOTTPIAUGUST 11, 2016 at 09:24 Does the transparent bowl for the cameras not offer… transparency.
==========================================
It does, but you might suggest if transparent bowl you need to hide the numbers, you can’t have both visible. There is no ideal way, whatever they do someone will cry foul and call it a fix.
That is precisely why you have to be seen to be squeaky clean and to apply all rules without fear or favour in each and every case!!
And in fairness, just to follow up on the possible LC QF fixtures ‘strategy’ of my own the key fixtures having now had the chance to look are:
Rangers play Ross County 3.00 Saturday 17th
) either Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday of that week
QOTS play Raith Rovers same time
Dundee play Aberdeen 12.00 Sunday 18th
Rangers will play QOTS either Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday of that week
Aberdeen will play (out a turgid 0-0 and probably ET and Penalties
Aberdeen host Rangers 1pm on Sunday 23rd
So, Aberdeen can’t play Tuesday but RFC and QOTS could. Aberdeen could presumably play (and I think prefer) Wednesday or less preferably Thursday.
If its Wednesday (and of course tv will dictate) presumably Alloa’s game against Stenhousmuir would need to be postponed the following Saturday (they having played the Thursday) and Celtics home tie to Kilmarnock. If its Thursday then St J’s saturday tie against Hamilton needs to be postponed.
so, eeksie peeks between Celtic/Alloa and Aberdeen/St J on the Wednesday Thursday, Rangers QOTS genuinely has to be the Tuesday.
Edit: I stupidly ignored of course that Celtic and Aberdeen could both olay the Wednesday and televise the Utd Morton tie on the Thursday – Apologies.
Johnbud78August 11, 2016 at 08:11
‘..i’d like to hear BP/Tris put it to KM of BBC, a challenge to debate the points on the phone in? ..’
_________
Interestingly, I note that “The BBC Trust has commissioned an impartiality review into how the corporation presents facts and figures in its news stories” [Sherna Noah, page 4, ‘The Scotsman’ today]
Although this seems to be related to situations where “.. statistics were used erroneously or in misleading ways by guests on programmes and were not challenged by presenters”, I shall consider firing off a wee line about the unchallenged acceptance by BBC Radio Scotland of the Big Lie, and its apparent readiness not just to ban any on-air discussion of the allegations made against the Football Authorities but to positively allow its presenters to perpetuate and propagate the Big Lie as fervently as partisan supporters of the cheating club that is now in Liquidation.
Kill Ultra
The reason I’m dismissive is I know your belief to be unfounded with regard to how BRTH got involved.
The other reason is that it would be stupid to try and justify a belief that is not open to persuasion and in the process reveal information for folk to use to threaten those involved.
[moderated]
My post of 11.01 refers: I misread Sherna Noah’s report. The ‘Impartiality Review’ has already taken place, and Noah was reporting its findings.I think she (he?) used the wrong tense , using ‘has commissioned’ rather than the more appropriate ‘had commissioned’, to show that the deed had already been done! ( That’s my feeble excuse, and I’m sticking to it!
)
AULDHEIDAUGUST 11, 2016 at 11:07 0 0 Rate This
“Kill UltraThe reason I’m dismissive is I know your belief to be unfounded with regard to how BRTH got involved.The other reason is that it would be stupid to try and justify a belief that is not open to persuasion and in the process reveal information for folk to use to threaten those involved.You may not trust me but I sure as hell don’t trust you and question your motivations.At best you show bad judgement at worse you are a trojan.”
————-
Auldheid. You say that to reveal certain information would leave people open to threats. I don’t need any more information from you, but I agree, that people’s identities have to be protected particularly those involved in trying to shine some light in the very dark corners of Scottish football.
Trojan? My name, address and email details are with your fellow Res 4 requisitioner(Canamalar); feel free to ask him for them, if you haven’t done so already. Aside from revealing my whereabouts, the information would also give you an idea of what I do for a living. And it’s certainly not as a member of the “meeja” that you have accused me of in the past.
I’m a life-long fan of Celtic and want the best for the club and for all of Scottish football and its supporters. Nothing more, nothing less.
Kill Ultra/Auldheid,
Can we tone it down a bit guys? Notwithstanding my own belief that Celtic did indeed seek from the outset to hinder and impede the Res12 process (a belief based on some considerable experience of how they operate), I don’t think that accusing individuals of collusion is particularly helpful.
My firm belief is that there was determination on the part of the club to ensure that Res 12 failed – and that they really didn’t need any help from inside the tent.
In my opinion, the people involved were hindered in the main by their trust in the club, and not by any treachery in the ranks, but even if I’m wrong, I don’t see how apportioning blame gets us at SFM any further forward.
The guys who ran Res12 have a reputation for integrity and courage. I don’t want SFM to be a vehicle for undermining that reputation. In any case, the people with the big picture view of this are Celtic shareholders, and it should be a matter for them and not SFM.
BP @ 12:07, well said.
Re the cheating/not cheating discussion on last night’s Sportsound, Kenny McIntrye read out one of my tweets:
@bbckennymac some rubbish being spouted by your pundits tonight. There was no contact, Walker threw himself to the ground. That’s cheating.
He put it to the pundits by saying, is Paul not 100% spot on?
What ensued was Tom English agreeing with me and Mark Burchill, Ryan Stevenson and Allan Preston contorting themselves in all manner of ways to say that yes he dived and its morally wrong but its all part of the game and we should just accept it. Their conclusion was that if a player is in the box with another player running towards him, the natural reaction is to go down like they’ve been shot. It was mind boggling stuff, and this from guys who criticise foreign players for play acting.
Fairly quickly the real heart of the issue came out when Allan Preston said “what team does the guy that said that support?” It makes no difference, cheating is cheating be it a Hearts player, a Celtic player or a Motherwell player and it needs to be stamped out not condoned or even excused.
To be fair to Kenny and Tom, I felt they were trying pretty hard to get the pundits to admit that cheating is cheating. I wonder what their reaction will be the next time the national team or a Scottish club in Europe lose because of a penalty awarded for a dive.
Note that Ross County’s chairman is in the press today, saying that his club are now debt free.
See, Bampots? All it took was for Rangers to be back in the Premier, and clubs are already making more money. Ross County haven’t even played them yet, and they’re debt free! *THAT* is how good Rangers are for the football in this country.
Seriously, I could write for the MSM.
PAULN84AUGUST 11, 2016 at 12:24
I think the whole debate last night showed the difference of how players and coaches see it from the fans and the jounro’s.
I’m with Tom English in that cheating is cheating and that should be the end of it. Issue a punishment and move on.
However that attitude clearly doesn’t penetrate into the minds of coaches and players and my guess is that behind closed doors, in the dressing room and on the training park, that attitude is similar across most clubs.
The mantra these days is win at all costs and everything from stealing a few yards at a throw in to going down too ease in the box are generally condoned or fall into the managers ‘I’d didn’t see it’ category.
I’d also guess that what gets said in press conferences for public consumption doesn’t necessarily get repeated back to the players.
In fact lets not just talk about these days. When the stakes are high such as Joe Jordan’s handball v Wales, Maradonna v England etc. Players have been ‘at it’ for years.
The system is there for the matter to be dealt with.
Walker has been offered the two match ban, Hearts are fully within their right and within the rules to challenge that if they want. IMHO it doesn’t look like contact was made and they should probably just suck it up, but they are not the first and won’t be the last to find themselves in this situation.
You have to laugh at the Daily R**ord – or should we credit them with ingenuity?
In the artcle about Clint Hill – “the sold-out home support let their side know just how dissatisfied they were with a series of LOUD GROANS”
I searched their website to see if Celtic had ever been subjected to these “loud groans” but to my surprise they were only ever booed – funny that!
The use of Sutton and Stewart for the draw is significant. They knew they had a process under suspicion and they knew most of the media pack are under even more suspicion. I think Stewart and Sutton are seen as not part of the contamination. Maybe the message is getting through. Certainly there are few others who could deliver that outcome without feeding my scepticism …
BP
No problem. Your view is pretty near the mark.
pauln84August 11, 2016 at 12:24
‘…..To be fair to Kenny and Tom, I felt they were trying pretty hard to get the pundits to admit that cheating is cheating. ..’
wottpiAugust 11, 2016 at 13:26
‘…I’m with Tom English in that cheating is cheating and that should be the end of it. Issue a punishment and move on…’
_________
Yes, indeed.
But we didn’t hear a cheep from either English or MacIntyre about any need to investigate how the Football Authorities failed to deal with the greatest sporting cheating Scottish Football has ever experienced.
That they should suddenly become passionate advocates of tackling on-the-pitch ‘cheating’ shows that they still have the moral capacity to distinguish between ‘cheating’ and fair play.
That they can ‘strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel’ brands them as hypocritical moral cowards, and contributors to the death of Sporting Integrity in a way that is infinitely more significant than individual acts of cheating on the pitch, or acts of cheating planned by knights of the realm in a club’s Boardroom.
Indeed, the dereliction of journalistic integrity is worse even than the Football Authorities’ dereliction of their governance duties. The latter, as people trying to make money, might more easily be understood to be of the same stamp as your basic charlatan asset-strippers, of whom we have had some experience
An unprincipled journalist betrays a higher principle, and in so doing, falls lower.
StevieBC August 11, 2016 at 09:51
EASYJAMBOAUGUST 11, 2016 at 09:26 …It should have been 2 to the power 8 chances, not to the power 7. The chances of 8 successive home draws is therefore 255/1…=====================Purely in the interests of pedantry EJ, I make it 256/1.
============================
The pedantry prize is mine.
There are 256 possible combinations of Home (H) and Away (A) ties from 8 draws. There is one combination that reads HHHHHHHH and 255 for all other combinations. The probability can be written as 1 in 256 or in an odds format of 255/1 against.
Consider a single toss of a coin. The probability of a “Head” is 1 in 2 or in an odds format 1/1 (evens), not 1/2 or 2/1.
Similarly odds of “5/2 against” is actually a probability of 2 chances in 7. Odds of “2/5 on”, represents a probability of 5 chances in 7.
easyJamboAugust 11, 2016 at 15:07
)
StevieBCAugust 11, 2016 at 09:51
_______
Right, gentlemen, pass your ‘workings’ to me to adjudicate!
But you need to know that it took two attempts (1959 and 1960) for me to pass the old “Lower” maths. ( I needn’t add, of course, that the “Lower” maths of them day was at least the equivalent of second year undergrad standard!
There is no probability of me being able to grasp ‘probability’!
John ClarkAugust 11, 2016 at 14:31
pauln84August 11, 2016 at 12:24‘…..To be fair to Kenny and Tom, I felt they were trying pretty hard to get the pundits to admit that cheating is cheating. ..’wottpiAugust 11, 2016 at 13:26‘…I’m with Tom English in that cheating is cheating and that should be the end of it. Issue a punishment and move on…’_________Yes, indeed. But we didn’t hear a cheep from either English or MacIntyre about any need to investigate how the Football Authorities failed to deal with the greatest sporting cheating Scottish Football has ever experienced. That they should suddenly become passionate advocates of tackling on-the-pitch ‘cheating’ shows that they still have the moral capacity to distinguish between ‘cheating’ and fair play. That they can ‘strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel’ brands them as hypocritical moral cowards, and contributors to the death of Sporting Integrity in a way that is infinitely more significant than individual acts of cheating on the pitch, or acts of cheating planned by knights of the realm in a club’s Boardroom. Indeed, the dereliction of journalistic integrity is worse even than the Football Authorities’ dereliction of their governance duties. The latter, as people trying to make money, might more easily be understood to be of the same stamp as your basic charlatan asset-strippers, of whom we have had some experience An unprincipled journalist betrays a higher principle, and in so doing, falls lower.
_____________________________
I’ve no desire to get involved in the cheating/not cheating debate over ‘diving’, but will join you, John, in commenting on the way these so called experts are happy to discuss cheating on the park, in a similar way, I suppose, to ‘won on the park’, while studiously ignoring the much larger problem of systematic off-field cheating over a number of years.
Whatever our thoughts on a player ‘diving’, it is unlikely to have been a decision to cheat, with little planning involved, but a split second reaction, unlike the liberal use of DOS and EBT schemes, plus, of course, the deliberate mis-registering of players to cover the dodgy tax avoidance/evasion.
That these pundits, though, some of whom consider themselves credible journalists, should happily discuss, and berate, young footballers for cheating, while turning a blind eye to a planned form of cheating, and that is proven cheating, that resulted in not just one goal, nor just one game won, nor just one title won, but a myriad of games, a plethora of titles, and a sh*tstorm of anger, is too disgusting to quantify.
While the odd ‘journalist’ has been brave enough to, mildly, criticise David Murray for his excesses at Rangers, before running back into cover, there has been no meaningful debate amongst those who’s imagined duty is to bring wrongdoers to task, and the bigger the wrongdoer, and the higher his status, then the more deserving of their ire he is. And yet, the modest criticism there has been of Murray has centred round the damage he caused to Rangers, not to the huge damage he inflicted on the rest of us, for the bears, at least, had ten years, and more, of unbridled joy at all our expense.
If they would only sit around a microphone and publicly discuss the Ibrox cheating years, or even write a series of articles viewing it all like a multi-camera covered ‘dive’, do it in super-slow motion and discuss the minutiae of club directors who would turn a blind eye to a megalomaniac’s dirty deeds. But they won’t, for they know that that would expose them to the truth, and the last thing they want is to write the biggest story of their lives!
Then, if they debated the SFA/SPL/SPFL part in all of this…!
Would I be allowed to do any future ‘draws’ out of the transparent bowl
. I only want to help.
What would be the main story on STV sports news ? Results aplenty last night yet what takes the main story? Warburton talking about ‘ value for money players’ . Jeez.
On the subject of engagement with members of the MSM, we have been routinely ‘dingied’ every time we have made an approach.
My feeling is that it wouldn’t do us much good anyway, since where they need to be engaged is on their own patch – and there is as much chance of them giving an airing to to the truth from one of us as there is of them resisting the temptation to press the ‘cut-off’ switch when someone on a phone-in makes a coherent case against which they have no argument. Radio shows in paricular are the antithesis of SFM. We are trying to create an atmosphere of respectful, tolerance, whereas the phone-ins depend upon fuelling passions at the expense of thought. Most of the people involved are way below our level of debate in my opinion, and incapabable of engagement with those of us who like to think with the top half of our bodies.
Witness Tom English’s expressed wish to talk to sensible folk in secret, away from any eyes and ears.
It is useful to listen/read these guys to hear the latest nonsense they are spouting on behalf of the authorities/level5/David Murray, but less productive to worry about it.
Phone-ins are not opinion forming machines – they are designed as food for anger merchants whose intellect is <= to the halfwits on the mics. Newspaper ARE opinion formers, but increasingly less so. Time is most definitely on our side.
HELPMABOABAUGUST 11, 2016 at 18:24
Last week it was- let’s not talk about their good result in Europe, let’s listen to Kenny “mind-reader” Miller telling us that Scott Brown really thinks that Rangfers are the big threat this season.
I view the way Dave King is running Rangers as the same as the way the Leave campaign fought the EU Referendum and the way Donald Trump is running his Presidential campaign.
And my point is?
I think all three are/ were deliberately trying to bring together a group of people by exploiting their fears and trying to portray a certain group of people as the bogeymen, to galvanise support which is ultimately purely and simply for their own personal gain.
This is a deeply dangerous game to play, and is made a lot worse by a complicit media reporting what are in a very literal sense stories as fact. The results were clear to see during/ after the referendum with race hate on the rise and the murder of the MP in England. Where will it end, I dunno…
If you take a step back and look at the individuals, you have a convicted criminal who is now hailed as the messiah and a guy who (up until this point) it would appear can say absolutely anything and still be in the running for one of the most important jobs in the world. How? Well, I would argue largely thanks to the media.
I guess in a very roundabout way I am trying to say that should we really be surprised that the media in Scotland is as rubbish as it is when it comes to something relatively inconsequential as Fitba, when they clearly don’t care about the future of entire countries?
JOHN CLARKAUGUST 11, 2016 at 14:31
pauln84August 11, 2016 at 12:24‘…..To be fair to Kenny and Tom, I felt they were trying pretty hard to get the pundits to admit that cheating is cheating. ..’wottpiAugust 11, 2016 at 13:26‘…I’m with Tom English in that cheating is cheating and that should be the end of it. Issue a punishment and move on…’_________Yes, indeed.But we didn’t hear a cheep from either English or MacIntyre about any need to investigate how the Football Authorities failed to deal with the greatest sporting cheating Scottish Football has ever experienced.That they should suddenly become passionate advocates of tackling on-the-pitch ‘cheating’ shows that they still have the moral capacity to distinguish between ‘cheating’ and fair play.
===============================
Tonight on Sportsound the subject continued in the studio. Rangers supporting Kenny McIntyre was joined by Rangers supporting Richard Wilson and ex Rangers players Derek Ferguson and Steven Thomson. Having all agreed there was no contact in the incident at the weekend, Scott Brown was roundly castigated, an incident from two years ago involving ex Celt John Guidetti was dragged up, and we were assured cheating is not in the Scottish nature. What makes us Scots so genetically superior to others that the human trait of cheating escapes us? To back it up Ferguson regaled us of two Rangers players of his era who ‘lured’ players to foul them but it was never cheating…well it wouldn’t be would it! Ex-Ref Charlie Richmond joined by phone and spoke a lot of sense.
I think you’re being slightly disingenuous there uth. For me, and this is only a personal opinion, Derek Ferguson was a very surprising breath of fresh air on the issue. As Celtic club captain I thought Scott Brown let himself down by calling a fellow professional a cheat, there are many other ways he could’ve said the same thing. I believe Ferguson used the term ‘cuter’. But to give Derek his due he called the incident as cheating, no two ways about it. As did Thompson who also laid into Mark Burchilll, a former Celtic player who’s views and opinions I found truly astonishing – to say that he, as a player, had done the same about a hundred times and been rewarded with “maybe 15 or 20 penalties” and that was acceptable… That view was rightly castigated.
Don’t want to fall out, just don’t believe your post leaves the non-listening reader (now there’s a phrase!) with an accurate break-down.
causaludendiAugust 11, 2016 at 20:23
I think Scott Brown did a service to Scottish football by calling a fellow pro a cheat , because that is what that fellow pro is . I do hope he has the courage to repeat the call if it involves a teammate, either for CFC or Scotland .
I too have come to the view that Derek Ferguson (on the few times I’ve listened in) has been one of the better ex-footballer pundits, but the bar isn’t very high(I listened with mirth to Stephen Craigan on Scott Sinclair’s “dive” last night ).
Paddy M, Did Scott Brown call Dembele out as a cheat for his swallow dive over Jack Hamilton in an attempt to ‘claim’ a penalty? something Walker did not. Was Brown ‘cute’ with his backheel retaliation at the Tony Watt yellow card? Paragon of virtue? no. Professionals its what they do. As for Walkergate its very reminiscent of ‘Davisgate’ when the SMSM went into overdrive to castigate a talented player with an innate ability to do what professionals do. This of course did provide cover for the real cheating of that evening when a Rangers season ticket holding official favoured his team and gave a last minut penalty- deliberately.
I agree with your opinion on Derek Ferguson, but Brown? certainly not.
Is the main point with regard to the ongoing media coverage of Walker/dive gate not that had the incident occurred in any of the four Premiership games not involving Celtic or T’Rangers it would have been Tuesdays chip wrappers and the result of any appeal and ban would have been but a footnote tucked away in the inside pages.
Scott Brown being held up as a champion of ethics on a football field is the equivalent of Warburton being an expert in…….well everything!!
Could anyone on here tell me when the final outcome for the tax case will be announced thanks.Oh and on the way to conduct cup draws why not do it like the champions league draw put the teams inside sealed balls just a thought
Can’t understand Alan Archibald’s over reaction to Partick Thistles match with Celtic being re-arranged. It was an honour for a Scottish team to be invited into this international tournament. Who wouldn’t like the chance to play Barca, Inter Milan etc. Especially given that Celtic are competing in Europe at the moment. I always support every other Scottish team in Europe, I had hoped most people would be the same.
If he is so concerned about an empty week-end why didn’t he arrange a friendly for the Jags?
If Celtic manage to get through the play off round, the money coming the way to Partick is about £100k courtesy of Celtics success. I don’t think he will turn his nose up at that.
JIMBOAUGUST 12, 2016 at 07:43
Can’t understand Alan Archibald’s over reaction to Partick Thistles match with Celtic being re-arranged. It was an honour for a Scottish team to be invited into this international tournament. Who wouldn’t like the chance to play Barca, Inter Milan etc. Especially given that Celtic are competing in Europe at the moment. I always support every other Scottish team in Europe, I had hoped most people would be the same.
—————————————————-
I always support other Scottish teams in Europe (although I admit I struggled to support one now deceased team). But I don’t support a team going to play a friendly during the league season requiring the cancellation of a fixture. Celtic were unavailable due to their own domestic obligations, they shouldn’t have given it a second thought frankly. That they decided playing a friendly is more important that playing in their own league is downright disrespectful. It doesn’t matter who the opposition are, if you have a league game scheduled that takes priority, the sooner the SPFL remove this ridiculous “week off” rule the better (and sorry it is only there for the benefit of 1 team). The choice is simple – play your league game as required or if you decide something else is more important then its a 3-0 award to the opposition (and a hefty fine).
Oh and how long before we hear managers/pundits complain about asking players to play too many games?
Dive gate – the answer is simple and is in the football authorities hands. Review the footage, if a dive is clear (and it does need to be clear) then a 5 game ban. Second offence 10 game ban. It won’t take many bans before you start to see an effect.
Other “professional” behaviours could be treated likewise. Look at the oval ball game, its not perfect, but the citing committee at least has the power and the balls to sort out misbehaviours post-match.
But football won’t do anything, they never do.
I tuned into SSB last night for ten minutes an noted that my ‘football fan as an addict’ metaphor was in full flow.
A run of Bears came on claiming, despite being asked to pay the same top dollar price, now perhaps along with 1872 add-ons, they are doing their best to justify the argument that the inferior product being pushed their way will do the same job as the pure 100% Colombian they were sold by SDM.
The contradictions never seemed to hit home.
– If you don’t need to spend millions to gain footballing success and for fans to get their ‘hit’, why did SDM piss their (and our tax) money up against the wall??
– For every high price dud Celtic has signed as a waste of money, every player Warburton has got on the cheap will be an unqualified success!!
– Even when the financial doping was in full flight between 1999 and 2012 seven league titles a piece were shared by Celtic and Rangers. – Fact
Suddenly there is a realization that there is a need for sustainability down Govan way but the real reasons behind this and the problems it brings in terms of fulfilling ambitions appears to be hidden in the back of addled minds.
Just when I thought some were perhaps on the verge of cold turkey, it was clear that they (like many of us) are getting pulled in again by their dealer.
The_SteedAugust 12, 2016 at 07:52
‘..I’ve not seen anything in the media regarding the bizarre situation where the SFA is open 9-5 Monday to Friday to register players, but if you submit an application outside of those hours then it could be processed if someone just happens to be in the office ..’
_________
Forgive my ignorance, the Steed,but has something happened recently that prompts your post?
Messing about with player registrations cost a former ‘Secretary’ of the SFA his job, and deservedly so.
Can what you describe really be the case? Could even the SFA be so stupid/wicked/selective as to permit that kind of arbitrary situation?
I don’t doubt that they would wish to be able to play fast and loose with registration procedures when it suited them-they have done so before!- but to try it now would point up their propensity to cheat rather than abide by pre-agreed rules.
TAYREDAUGUST 12, 2016 at 08:40
It seems to me that the SFA did their job pretty promptly in respect of the penalty incident in the match between Hearts and Celtic. There was no contact, the player went down, penalty mistakenly given, player suspended for the two games set out in the regulations.
The media, the BBC radio show hosted by Kenny McIntyre in particular, made a meal of it to fill space on the programme. As noted by Big Pink,
I haven’t heard whether the referee has been sanctioned for the two horrendous decisions he made for the first two goals in the game.
BLUAUGUST 12, 2016 at 09:30
Aye, but my problem with the situation is that its only sometimes, and 2 games isn’t enough. Say a player dives, wins his club a penalty and wins his club 3 points. Is a 2 game ban sufficient? I don’t think so. The only way to stamp this out is by making the result of being caught a hefty one. 5 games would seem to me to be a minimum and keep ramping the length of ban up for every subsequent offence. The clubs will make damned sure the players are fully aware of the consequences then, even if the players aren’t bright enough to work it out themselves!
TAYREDAUGUST 12, 2016 at 09:38
I wouldn’t disagree with you, but who makes the rules – it’s the clubs. One question though – is diving really a worse offence than kicking, shirt pulling or hand ball?
JOHN CLARK
AUGUST 12, 2016 at 09:28
I think it is perfectly reasonable for people on this forum to question what the SFA’s situation is with regards to processing player registrations. (Remember our tag line)
We know that they keep open late on during towards the end of the transfer window to process the last minute applications but is it the norm to be open on a Saturday and/or Sunday with Sandy Bryson and his registrations staff twiddling their thumbs on other quiet weekends.
Perhaps they have someone on stand-by to deal with such situations.
Given their pedantry for checking amateur team’s double signatures the process must take some time, so someone will have been taken away from the morning shop at Tesco!!
As your rightly say a previous SFA employee lost his jobs for being tardy with a certain player’s paperwork prior to an important game. However the very fact that that situation happened no doubt makes others wonder if the organisation is bending over backwards to ensure the same thing doesn’t happen again to the then disadvantaged club.
Personally I have no problem with the situation but the late registration of Sinclair does come across as being a bit different from the norm and therefore the paying customer is surely entitled to seek clarification and transparency as I doubt the rules and procedures regarding SFA registrations opening hours is known.
Bit of trolling this morning from ‘new’ posters intent on starting an argument between Celtic and Hearts fans. Please do not bite.
The incident from last week’s game is a fair topic for discussion but hostility and paranoia – and deliberate inaccuracies are not.
Keep the head folks.
Ok got it apologies all round.
wottpi
I didn’t really think there was much controversy surrounding the Sinclair registration. My reaction on hearing Robbie Nielson’s comments about the player Hearts wanted available for the match was that ‘someone in the Tynecastle admin will be getting a rocket for not knowing the SFA was open’.
I thought it was as simple as that?
Big pink. Im guessing that is aimed at me and my pulled post from earlier. I am not trolling. I am not a new poster, i just don’t post very often. i will continue to read the SFM but i am a little concerned that what i wrote could be deemed trolling. I would appreciate a fuller explanation.
Edit:
Just seen your comment to another post on the subject. Fair enough. But i wasnt trolling. You have given your opinion. I will accept that
Apart from the interesting debates and comments on this site one of the things that sets it apart from others is the gentlemanly acceptance of BP’s occasional gentle chiding.
All – apologies if my comments came across as trolling or provocative – that was certainly not my intention.
I’ve burned my tinfoil hat.
@Big Pink – My understanding of the issue was that the SFA was actually ‘closed’ at the weekend – and that Hearts didn’t realise registrations could still be processed on the off-chance that someone was in the office so should have done what Celtic did and submitted the request after hours instead of waiting for Monday. I suspect you are right though and there will have been a rocket dispatched inside Tynecastle and it won’t happen again!
Bopster,
Actually it wasn’t aimed at you at all. That said, I think you said that the TDs and removal of the trolling post was an indication that this is a ‘Celtic supporters blog’. You then went on to say that your (removed) post had 4 TUs!
I believe that the (troll) post was factually incorrect, and that it was couched in hostile terms with the intention of derailing the discussion. The substantive issue in the post was however raised again by me for discussion, because it is appropriate that it gets an airing.
The TD thing is a real red herring – and I’ve been lobbying for its removal for some time. I think I will raise it again.
BLUAUGUST 12, 2016 at 09:44
I wouldn’t disagree with you, but who makes the rules – it’s the clubs. One question though – is diving really a worse offence than kicking, shirt pulling or hand ball?
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It all comes back to the clubs ultimately. Lets face it the big Euro clubs tend to have a few players who are somewhat prone to being poleaxed by a passing worm in the grass. They pay them an obscene amount of money every week, so they are certainly going to do all they can to ensure their mollycoddled prima donnas are available if fit. UEFA and FIFA have rendered themselves powerless by repeatedly bending over backwards to appease the moneyed clubs have lost almost all control. This situation, despite UEFA and FIFA being awful institutions, is killing the game.
is diving really a worse offence than kicking, shirt pulling or hand ball?
Yes. Kicking and handball can be accidental, shirt-pulling can on occasion be pretty instinctive, although I concede each can be pure and simple cheating. Diving is only instinctive because its become an acceptable tool for professional footballers and is always an attempt to deliberately cheat. Stamp on it and it can be all but removed form the game.
The_Steed
Thanks for the clarification, and the temperate tone. My understanding is identical to yours with the exception that nothing is left to chance. Although the offices are closed, a registration officer is in attendance until lunchtime on a Saturday & Sunday.
In the IT era of course, there is no need for heavy-touch bureaucracy and location should not be a factor. Just another example of a nineteenth century organisation failing to respond to a 21st century problem.
The diving argument is a difficult one, and there are elements of subjectivity embedded.
I can understand Hearts fans frustration at the apparent disparity between the Walker and Guidetti incidents (as someone on Jambos KB said, they were almost on the same blade of grass!).
However as a Celtic fan, my own subjective interpretation of the Guidetti incident is that he did in fact slip – Hearts fans will disagree perhaps.
But the nub of the problem is this. Even although Guidetti slipped, he could have easily said to the ref, “no contact ref – I slipped!” But he didn’t, and responsibility for the miscarriage of justice is transferred to the ref, the players referring any questions to the guy in the middle.
I have witnessed Robbie Fowler tell a ref (who had awarded him a penalty) that he fell over. I saw Paolo Di Canio do the same.
On the same tack, every time a ball goes out of play, 22 hands go up claiming the shy, corner or bye kick. Andy Walker will tell you it is professionalism; I think it is a slow movement towards making cheating acceptable.
Back to the diving thing though. If players want to see integrity restored to the sport, then they should volunteer information to a ref who makes a game changing decision by mistake. They do it in snooker all the time. They often do it in tennis.
Why not in football?
Kicking can be quite deliberate and targeted. There was a player, I think Mulraney at ICTFC who had lumps kicked off him in an early match in the League Cup because he was too fast and too skilful for the opposition. There was the frustrated Alloa player who wanted to send a message to Oduwa(?) of Rangers because he decided that Oduwa was taking the piss, for which read too skilful. For those of a certain vintage Jimmy Johnstone refusing to be intimidated by Athletico Madrid’s brutality was a master class in skill and bravery verging on foolhardiness. If you’re getting put in the air every two minutes, there must be a temptation to get one back by anticipating the next lunge and going over a bit easily. As you say, this is professional football – good result= more money.
BLUAUGUST 12, 2016 at 11:47
I agree, kicking etc can be cheating as much as any other indiscretion. I recall watching several games (usually in Europe) where downright violence was the tactic – Rapid Vienna come immediately to mind, but there were several others, Uruguay being the masters!
But diving is always cheating, there is no excuse of it being a miss-timed tackle etc. Worse still it is immediately solvable if the desire was there.
I realise that my contribution here is well behind when the topic was discussed, but I’ve had a busy week and one or two IT gremlins.
However, in relation to the remarkable statistics of recent home cup fixtures for that team we all ‘love and cherish’, could some of our John Clark Confusers let us know if there are any other (I was going to say Scottish, but I think that I shall leave it open) teams with similar stats. over the last five seasons or so? Or is this another of their world records?
By the way John C., the difference between a probability and a possibility is in the eye of the beholder (and the referee) – especially in fitba’!
Thanks for the explanation BP.
it does go to show how the written word can be misinterpreted. I don’t want to enter a he said she said debate. But i want to make it clear i did not write. “This is a celtic blog”. I wrote that “it’s no wonder people outside this blog consider it a celtic blog”.
I felt the player registration carry on was worth discussion.
it has been discussed now, therefore i’m happy to move on.
keep up the good work. Scottish football needs this blog. I havent bought a daily record for thirty years for reasons others have documented on this blog. We need the truth out there, not spin. Scottish football deserves much better from its media. The debates and discussions on this site offer way more than any paper ever has.
Haywire
August 12, 2016 at 12:23
———————————–
The other day, 2 of the guys were trying to work out the odds of TRFC* getting 8 home draws in a row and were looking at it as (I think) 2 to the power of 8 (hence 255/1). I’m no statistician but I think it’s much more than this, is it not?
I see where they’re coming from basing it on the number of rounds they have received a home draw with a 1 in 2 chance of a home draw happening, but surely that 1 in 2 chance happens every time an individual tie in the round is drawn, does it not?
For example, in the most recent League cup draw, TRFC* were drawn in the third tie (I think!), so in each of those 3 ties did TRFC* not have a chance of being drawn away from home rather than just once in the round as a whole?
If that applies, then the odds of 8 consecutive home draws increases massively to make it even less likely that it would happen without ‘help’.
As I said, I could be completely wrong, so if anyone wants to shoot me down feel free to do so (preferably with an explanation as to why the individual tie aspect doesn’t matter).
tamjartmarquezAugust 11, 2016 at 21:47
TJM
I’m not holding up Scott Brown as a paragon of virtue but expecting that , if he feels able to “call out” a rival for cheating ,he will be equally willing to do the same wrt teammates .In my opinion, the blame for most of this lies at the feet of the managers, who pressurise their players to be “professional”.
On the subject of match postponement, I am with Tayred on this . If CFC are that desperate for cash and kudos, they could send a team to play in the friendly and another team to play us and fulfil their league fixture . They certainly have an adequate player pool to compete in both . And we feel we are being picked on . Which other clubs suffer in this manner ?
Wee question for Tayred. Did we not use the postponement provision last season (or the one before) due to fixture pile-ups during EL qualifiers? Not saying 2 wrongs make a right though.