Apologies for the lack of activity this past few days. I had been expecting a guest blog, but it has failed to materialise thus far. I will endeavour to get that together over the next few days. In the meantine, the moderators would like to thank everyone for their cooperation in keeping some sanity in the face of the recent trolling activity. The self-policing aspect has been admirable over the last few days – as has the level of scrutiny applied to the information which has been coming in.
There have been, understandably, some comments on the blog and elsewhere about a perceived obsesssion here with Rangers and their offspring. Whilst I agree that the focus of this community should have a wider perspective, I don’t think it is obsessional to engage with the big story of the day – in fact it is neccessary that we do so.
Ultimately though TSFM’s longevity will depend on our ability to look at the wider issues, and that is at the top of our minds. We have recently been approached by some people about the possibility of our creating and publicising our own Scottish Football Financial Secrecy League in line with that created a while back for Christian Aid. That may give us some credibility as a watchdog, and utilise the expertise that many contributors have offered so freely in the past.
Right now though the new Rangers show is still headlining, and it is of interest, in the light of the impending share issue, whether the economics of running the new Rangers is really as precariously balanced as has been claimed by some of our number.
If our supsicions of Charles Green’s motives are correct, then we are bound to demonstrate why we think the share issue could be a device to either pay off Ticketus, or Green’s investors to the detriment of the fans.
If the new club’s finances are as precarious as has been stated, then it would point to the share issue being used as a cut and run exercise; but I am not at all convinced of that precariousness.
For example, I don’t accept that The Rangers are paying players an average weekly wage of even as much as £2500. I suspect that the actual figure is considerably less than that, and I hear that basic salaries for the higher quality new players is nearer the £1500 a week mark, with considerably less being offered to the younger guys. Of course performance bonuses would be added to that, but if my figure is correct, Green has a considerable amount of headroom to pay those bonuses.
On the other hand, Green will not have the sponsorship bucks, the media cash, or the prize money that old Rangers would have taken for granted, so there is a defecit there. It may also be of interest to see whether the reported figures for ST sales can be verified. I don’t think it would be churlish for Rangers fans to demand proof of that success before stumping up for a share or two, but one would have to say that reported high figures may well influence an investment decision – and in spite of those impressive numbers (35,000 STs sold) private investors still remain in hiding. It is at times like these that Adam would be an invaluable asset, bringing as he did an alternative and forensic accounting perspective to the somewhat wishful thinking of our non-Rangers tendency 🙂
If the success of Charles Green’s project is determined solely by how much money he makes, then it is in the interest of Rangers fans that any plans to line his own pockets via a share issue (if that is really his intention) are exposed. If Green’s accusers are correct (and let’s not forget that Rangers diehards like John Brown are among their number), then we would have to assume that his biggest success yet has been to get the bears onside, buying imprssively high numbers of STs, after the initial hostility he faced.
Rangers fans who have involved themsleves in critical thinking over the matter will know that some serious damage to the new club will be the result if Green is allowed to pull off any such scam, but they will also know that if he is genuinely invested in the well-being of the club, he is probably their best hope.
That is the dilemma they face.
All talk of stripping titles and history is a red-herring. The real problem for new Rangers is not lost titles or trophy notches on an Ibrox crossbar. It is, as it has been all summer long for old Rangers, survival.
Gentlemen, I fear I may have inadvertently lowered the tone…perhaps it’s time to drop this analogy. 😉
Livia Burlando says:
September 8, 2012 at 15.51.
How many versions of your name do you use ?.
Livia Burlando says:
September 8, 2012 at 15.51.
How many versions of your name do you use ?.
Sorry, wordpress keeps changing me to the one-word-no-upper-case version; unless I remember to fix it manually, that’s what shows.
Livia,
Ah, Thought we had an imposter.
Ah…I see. It’s not Rangers that are at fault. It’s Scotland!
Oh…and you’ll also find the words ‘Rangers’ and ‘governance’ in the same sentence. It’s there, right at the beginning…
http://ibroxnoise.blogspot.com/2012/09/are-rangers-finished-with-scotland.html?m=1
Angus @16-35
No sense of humour then
Still waiting to hear where else the corruption in scottish football is.
I know we dont have a perfect set up but then what league has but as far as corruption is concerned there is only one show in town.
And unless i am wrong have dead club not admitted thier guilt in the forgotten about small tax case so it should not be to difficult for this investigation on Tuesday to start with the games these 2 [Flo and DeBoer]played in and for 3-0 reverses to be applied
dunloytim says:
September 8, 2012 at 16:59
Angus @16-35
No sense of humour then
Still waiting to hear where else the corruption in scottish football is.
——-
A humourous aside doesn’t often begin with “This might sound stupid but …”. I took you at a face value.
Anyhow, it seems to me that this blog is not interested in any lumpy carpets which may be on the floors of Scottish fitba if they don’t involve Rangers.
One just needs to mention tentatively on here anything that either a) offers some possible justification for anything Rangers may have ever done, or b) implies they may not be the singular and only spawn of Satan – to gain a storm of TDs.
For that reason – the lack of any semblance of balanced discussion – I join several others in leaving you to your “investigations” as The Rangers Monitor, for that is what this blog has turned into.
I support Aberdeen.
I’m out.
Agrajag says:
September 8, 2012 at 14:17
In order for the new club to make it to the SPL they will have to survive.
That is currently by no means certain.
Any objective look at them makes it clear that they need a cash injection from somewhere. That may well be a share issue, but if it isn’t it will have to be from somewhere else.
I do not believe for a second that the SFA / SFL did not know this when they ignored their own rules to leapfrog them into senior football in Scotland.
———————————–
A few home cup-ties (2 V Celtic) this season will help…………..What’s the odds?
Angus says:
September 8, 2012 at 18:15
Anyhow, it seems to me that this blog is not interested in any lumpy carpets which may be on the floors of Scottish fitba if they don’t involve Rangers.
________________
This blog/RTC discussed Celtic/EBT.
I am not aware of any other lumpy carpets that have been pointed out by you or anyone else.
This may sound stupid but if you have had some skulduggery to report then I am sure that you would have done so before departing.
Hey Angus
The only reason this blog exists is because of old RFC. The shenanigins are not over-far from it. The folks here would like nothing more than to move on and discuss/argue other issues regarding scottish fitba but as long as the shenanigins continue then that’s a tad difficult.
had a good night tonight race night for a local football team, although i live at the other side of the planet, was in the company of scots, scousers mancs and other englanders. and as we know the english really couldnt care less about scottish football however the question was asked about the goings on at the rangers.i took a back seat as a follow follower gave his version of the scandalous punishment of the oldco and how scottish football would suffer the consequences of their actions.after giving my version of events im pretty sure i was way ahead on points only to be told by follow follower i was a sad celtic supporter who knew more about rangers than rangers fans………………………….eh i rest my case your honour.
FWIW,
Rangers(whichever version) will be found culpable on the dual contracts issue,i don’t doubt the result.They will be expelled from senior football in scotland and for a couple of hours it will look like they are getting some comeuppence at last.
But,
An appeal will be launched to the appellant body the SFA and so the corruption will continue,an unnamed panel and/or to make extra doubbly sure that ogilvie and regan get the result they need it will be kept inhouse and sent to a secret committee who will uphold the verdict but suspend the sentence or change it completely to one that does,nt inhibit the growth of the new club.
Hey Angus
The only reason this blog exists is because of old RFC. The shenanigins are not over-far from it. The folks here would like nothing more than to move on and discuss/argue other issues regarding scottish fitba but as long as the shenanigins continue then that’s a tad difficult.
Seriously, do the various contributors who have driven off angus and others not see the damage they are doing?
Some people. on this site need to give other posters a bit of respect.
Otherwise this site will become utterly irrelevant.
When he finds the silver apples of the moon, The golden apples of the sun, I hope Angus will wander back here. I enjoyed his contributions.
Just to intoduce a topic that should be important enough for the Scottish Football Monitor to discuss:
Do you agree with Craig Leveins assessment that the Scottish Team is progressing?
And
If you do not, do you think it is time to make a managerial change immediately to give us a chance to qualify for Brazil?
In response to the MSM managed, deceptive mantra that Sevco “has been punished enough…”
With the start of the EBT investigation next week, perhaps we could start our own mantra?
Something which succinctly conveys that if a club has deliberately broken rules over several years to gain an advantage over all other member clubs, then that club has no right to remain in any Scottish League.
“Expulsion is the only adequate punishment.”
Sure I read on RTC that when RC O’gilvie moved to Hearts, that by sure coincidence as soon as he arrived, Hearts started using EBT’s.
Did I imagine that?
StevieBC
The panel will be hard pushed to justify a lenient punishment for such a high level of disrepute over such a long period of time.
I would expect:
– results whilst fielding players improperly registered to be changed to 0-3, as is the universally accept sanction/consequence for such a breach of the rules;
– titles earned to be vacated and the history books to reflect this;
– a fine, sufficient in size to cover any prize money received;
– Directors involved in not disclosing the payments/negotiating the contracts, to be banned from SPL and reported to SFA/UEFA/FIFA;
– and a suspension/termination of membership(SPL) for a minimum of time, equalling that of the time the scheme was in place;
Too harsh?
Angus,
Sorry to see you go – but I don’t recognise the scenario you portray. TDs are ephemeral – arguments are longer lasting. I think you have a good deal of respect from posters on here, even those who disagree with you.
I think there is a fair consensus on the blog that the corruption in Scottish Football is deeper than the furrows ploughed by RFC. The conspiracy of silence by SPL teams and the attempted SPL coercion of the SFL sides to allow the new Rangers into D1 are examples.
The true test of the blog will come whenever a smoking gun is found at the ground or grounds of the teams we support individually. Right now, despite suspicions that many of harbour, no eveidence is available.
Personally, I am troubled deeply by Celtic’s silence on the matters. I am also troubled by the inactivity with regard to the 11-1 vote – especially now that the OF is no more.
There are many questions facing football, and I hope you stick around to help find the answers. Why not consider for example writing a piece for the blog highlighting your priorities?
parttimearab says:
September 8, 2012 at 19:34
5 4 Rate This
Seriously, do the various contributors who have driven off angus and others not see the damage they are doing?
Some people. on this site need to give other posters a bit of respect.
Otherwise this site will become utterly irrelevant.
==============
This may sound familiar …….
Who are these people?
spanishcelt says:
September 8, 2012 at 14:17
22 3 i
Rate This
liviaburlando says:
September 8, 2012 at 13:34
Of course there are other things wrong with Scottish football. But let me try an analogy. A few years ago I stepped out of my kitchen door to find the external drain in the driveway was not draining, but expelling – expelling foul-smelling muck, raw sewage, and other various other items of disgusting domestic waste.
Even those problems that might become serious in the long term, like roof maintenance or boiler servicing, could not capture my attention while there was actual sh!t running down the drive.
…………………………………………………………….
And your solution was simple, bring it to the attention of people who knew what was needed to resolve the problem.
In they came, no time wasted, concluded on the obvious problem and then REMOVED THE TAMPON in the drain that was causing problems for everything connected to it.
So all we need is someone to remove the TAMPON that is The Rangers/Sevco/Newco/nextco and everything else can flow freely again in a clean environment.
Fitting that we have a shower of fannies running our game?
=======================================================================
Spanish celt…tampons and fannies…on such an erudite website……made my evening in a hot balmy/barmy(?) Essex…muchas gracias!
I always find it sad when posters like Angus decide that they will no longer post on here because they feel that this is a Sevcocentric site
In many respects that is true, but given that they are at the heart of the problems the game is facing, that should come as no surprise
As always, if Angus and others feel that there is something worthy of debate on here, they should put it up for discussion
Yes there are other problems to be dealt with, but as I said last night until we see the Sevco issue dealt with in a fair and open manner, then we will get nowhere
Have heard from a very reliable source that ICT would punt Butcher but the compensation pay out is more than they are willing to pay.
iki says;
September 8,2012 at 20:20
at times iki, all of us.
it’s often easy to react to a post we don’t agree with without giving thought the effect our comment has on the poster, especially if it becomes part of a chain of negative comments.
I’ve done it too so don’t want to go finger pointing without including myself.
we need to give space to views other than our own on this site and sometimes that means just letting some one else’s views other go without comment.
Plank anyone take a stab at how quickly after the tribunal give a statement on any punishment, we will have Green on the box telling us that he will fight it all the way?
Why is RC O’gilvie still clinging to his job for dear life?
Why have the MSM not asked the obvious questions? They had the opportunity last week when he broke cover after months of lying low.
A man that is so clearly conflicted and up to his neck in this corruption.
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING stinks about this whole saga.
He’s not hanging around for the good of scottish football because if he was, then he would have gone on gardening leave months ago.
We need to be on guard here.
Stmiley,
Not too harsh at all. In terms of possible outcomes, I’d say they were simply the fairest.
In a properly run football association your suggestions wouldn’t even be debated, just accepted as a fair implementation of the rules that each member signed up to. Recent actions by other sporting bodies over the last few months when faced with cheating have been immediate, punitive and unchallenged.
In ours, however, …….
I suppose we have the football association we deserve if we allow the present power structure and it’s incumbents to remain in place to act or not to act on the findings of independent investigations.
Club boards have it in their power to make sure the SFA acts properly, and to remove conflicted or untrustworthy officials. Will they do so before the findings need to be discussed? or wait and see if there are any more attempts to pursue the institutionalised favouritism we have seen to date? Or are there only a few voices of reason and fairness among them?
Finally, I wonder if Nimmo Smith sought any assurances from the SFA that his work and valuable time, and that of his colleagues, will not be wasted on this occasion. It would be reassuring if there is a guarantee that the findings will be made public and/or put to the SFA for action.
Partimearab @20-58
I feel i must reply as Angus had replied to a post that i put on about the only corruption in scottish football at the minute revolves around dead club the guardian’s of our game and the combined msm/radio shows.All i asked was if there is some other evidence of corruption in our game get it out there and I am sure the many excellent poster’s on here will get on it’s case right away.
I don’t think i said anything out of order I made a joke of not understanding the post’s put up by BRTH and Goosy.If Angus is reading this i did not mean to offend and i hope you will come back on as i think we need everyone no matter what they have to say.
Agrajag says:
September 8, 2012 at 11:30
CW says:
September 8, 2012 at 00:24
In answer to your question :
“If you think that the panel consisting of
Lord Nimmo Smith
Charles Flint QC
Nicholas Stewart QC
Are complicit in a pre-determined outcome and will put their names and reputations to it fair enough.”
My answer : Probably !
==================================
I think that is a disgraceful slur, however you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
———————————————————————-
History is littered with “Patsie’s” being put up to take the flak !
I’m sure the Honourable Gentlemen are fine, upstanding members of Society when Defending/ Sentencing your average Shoplifter / Dr*g Dealer / Tax Dodger / Whatever ! (Delete as appropriate)
What I am saying is that, especially in decisive cases like this, these fine, upstanding members of Society are often “Advised” to come to a decision that will be “Beneficial to the State of the Nation” !
Take for example :
(1) David Kelly case over Iraq
(2) MMR Scandal and Autistic Kids ( a cause close to my heart !)
Just because someone has “Lord” before his name or “QC” after his name does not mean that they can be “Lent on !”
QC’s are in fact sometimes on the front pages of the Papers for the wrong reasons !
Come to think of it, so are Lords !
I’ve just got a funny feeling over this one that the verdict will be “Move along, nothing to see !”
You’re right, it’s just my opinion, and I am entitled to it. I really, really hope I am wrong, but there are too many alarm bells ringing at the moment.
1. Ever increasing confidence coming out from Sevco.
2. Total silence from SFA / SPL / Scottish Government. (Reagan used to tweet a lot, Doncaster just looks like the wee monkey who collects the money for The Organ Grinder. There was a famous Travelling Wilbury’s song called “Tweeter and The Monkey Man !” Look it up, it’s about a couple of USA Chancers trying to escape the Law, but get caught in the end. The Main Characters are not necessarily R & D, but more probably Murray & Whyte, but the title reminds me of R & D ! ). p.s. Sung by Bob Dylan.
parttimearab says:
September 8, 2012 at 20:58
“…. sometimes that means just letting some one else’s views other go without comment.”
=============
dunloytim says;
September 8, 2012 at 21:17
as i said earlier i think care in responding to a post is an issue for all myself included.
in no way did i intend to point a finger at you.
indeed your response shows your class and i heartily applaud it
Its about time this blog returned to some kind of sanitary. 😀
J Maclure says:
September 8, 2012 at 19:35
Just to intoduce a topic that should be important enough for the Scottish Football Monitor to discuss:
Do you agree with Craig Leveins assessment that the Scottish Team is progressing?
And
If you do not, do you think it is time to make a managerial change immediately to give us a chance to qualify for Brazil?
==========================================================================
JM,
I don’t think the Scottish team is progressing.I’ve posted here before that the standard is woeful,from schoolboy upwards.
We have a system where most of our coaches, who were good honest pros but were not technically proficient as players are now coaching the stars of tomorrow.We have coaches who,during their careers could not trap a ball,header a ball,pass a ball 10 yards passing on their “skills” to the next generation.
I’ve said for years that if we want our kids to learn the efficiency of the german or skill of the spanish players then we’ll need to get german or spanish coaches into our game.The average scottish coach does not have the technical ability to help us progress.Until this problem is addressed,we’ll never progress.
Captain Haddock
I am myself putting a great deal of trust in the reputation of the panel. Believe they will hand out a very tough set of sanctions, which in turn will withstand any appeal.
Big questions will be answered in the coming weeks, with regards to the claim of continuation of the ‘club’, Is it a new club? Could Greens newco survive sanctions? Do they have a choice in accepting them? If he doesn’t fight this with everything, will the fans buy into his share issue?
Have heard rumblings that the RFFF could finance the defence. Is there any truth in this?
TSFM says:
September 8, 2012 at 20:19
Angus,
Sorry to see you go – but I don’t recognise the scenario you portray. TDs are ephemeral – arguments are longer lasting. I think you have a good deal of respect from posters on here, even those who disagree with you.
I think there is a fair consensus on the blog that the corruption in Scottish Football is deeper than the furrows ploughed by RFC. The conspiracy of silence by SPL teams and the attempted SPL coercion of the SFL sides to allow the new Rangers into D1 are examples.
The true test of the blog will come whenever a smoking gun is found at the ground or grounds of the teams we support individually. Right now, despite suspicions that many of harbour, no eveidence is available.
Personally, I am troubled deeply by Celtic’s silence on the matters. I am also troubled by the inactivity with regard to the 11-1 vote – especially now that the OF is no more.
There are many questions facing football, and I hope you stick around to help find the answers. Why not consider for example writing a piece for the blog highlighting your priorities?
——————————————————————————————
Totally agree.
Angus, You’re not alone.
Not all of us following this are CFC supporters. I know the majority are, and they only seem to respond to each other, even when someone who supports another club makes a decent point.
I’ve noticed that !
There is a lot of back slapping going on, but that’s only to be expected. “Bravos, Chapeaux’s”, etc. You can put that to the side, I do !
Unfortunately, this is the only site that is open to debate the scandal RTC originally exposed !
Yes, there are a lot of posts you can just skim through, but there are also a lot of good points being put across by some good people.
I make my points based on instinct and observation, sometimes going OTT with emotion ! I know that, but I think that sometimes stirs reaction in like minded people.
Other people like to post a more moderate, PC friendly input.
Others like to post Legal and Accountancy arguments that are many times WAY above my head !
We’re all different, but it really is worth giving your opinion, especially as you are one of the Non-OF fans like me.
We need a bit of balance sometimes.
p.s. I also agree with TSFM’s comment “I am troubled deeply by Celtic’s silence on the matters”.
That’s why we need a bit of balance sometimes !
Cortes 19.45
A little bit of Yeats does raise the tone- although I prefer it sung by Christy (or me).
Long Time Lurker says:
September 8, 2012 at 07:14
I was simply standing up for the rights of the copyright holder – your good self 🙂
…………………………………………………………………………………….
Many Thanks LTL..your vigilance & support is greatly appreciated 🙂
When I float the D&D brand on the AIM you will be mailed your original & honourary shayr sertifikate….for the holding co of course.
No I haven’t read the epic Downfall as yet (release is the 9th ?) but I will be ordering a couple of additional copies as anonymous xmas gifts…strictly for a chosen few.
I am negotiating with a global hotel chain, to have a copy of Downfall available in every room….
interesting times ahead.
SFA/SPL and all those cocerned in this farce: Simpering aquiescence.
Sorry ‘concerned’
CW says:
September 8, 2012 at 21:26
“What I am saying is that, especially in decisive cases like this, these fine, upstanding members of Society are often “Advised” to come to a decision that will be “Beneficial to the State of the Nation”
——–
A healthy degree of scepticism is not a bad thing in relation to politicians and the vested interests of commercial lobbies , and individual crooked lawyers and accountants etc.
But I think it’s unlikely that Lord Nimmo Smith and his wingers will do anything improper.
Their individual and collective sense of professional self-worth, and the knowledge that their findings of fact and their conclusions as to ‘guilt’ or ‘innocence’ will ( at least potentially) be subject to scrutiny by other, equally knowledgeable legal minds, will keep them right.
The worry is that a lot of relevant material might already have been destroyed, whether accidentally or deliberately, so any findings of fact might be restricted to perhaps one or two individual cases.
And, of course, their powers are not the powers that a Court has, to order searches of property or demand production of phone histories, emails, bank accounts etc. or compel people to appear before them or take evidence under oath, and so on. People might lie, knowing that they are not on oath and could not be done for perjury.
Green cannot afford at this time to say you cannot punish us we are a new/different club. Too much is at stake in regards to the proposed share issue.
IMO he will continue to challenge any decision by whatever means, appeals, court action etc, until the share issue takes place, there is too much to lose.
We will here more of the usual rhetoric from Green and Ally about punishments and everyone hates us especially the SFA.
As it is supposed to be part of the 5 way agreement that TRFC accept the findings of the tribunal, do the SFA have the bottle to revoke the agreement when Green refuses to accept any punishment, no neither do I.
here more of the usual rhetoric from Green and Ally about
Predictive text at fault honest :/
hear more of the …..
CW says:
September 8, 2012 at 21:26
Agrajag says:
September 8, 2012 at 11:30
CW says:
September 8, 2012 at 00:24
What I am saying is that, especially in decisive cases like this, these fine, upstanding members of Society are often “Advised” to come to a decision that will be “Beneficial to the State of the Nation” !
Take for example :
(2) MMR Scandal and Autistic Kids ( a cause close to my heart !)
———————————————————————–
Completely O/T, and I do not wish to intrude into a significant personal issue for you, but I am interested in knowing what you meant by this comment. I cannot tell from your remarks whether you believe the “whistleblower” or not.
Angus,
No one wants to see you leave the blog but it’s your choice.Common sense states there will be more Celtic fans on site than anyone else,because there are more Celtic fans than any other.If doesn’t mean there isn’t any room for anyone else though.
Fact is,the Rangers story is THE story at the moment and it still has a bit to run.
That doesn’t mean we can’t discuss anything else.I’ve been involved with this blog and RTC before it almost from the beginning.I’ve lost count of the times that people have came on with “whataboutery”.Celtic/Hearts etc are all corrupt also for example.Mostly though,when asked to explain their comments,the posters clam up.
if you have a story to tell then please do so.We’ll listen and reply as we see fit.That’s what the blog is all about and if you have evidence of any wrongdoing by any team or anyone involved in our game then let’s hear it.I think you’d be surprised at the support you’d get.
john clarke says:
September 8, 2012 at 22:49
CW says:
September 8, 2012 at 21:26
“What I am saying is that, especially in decisive cases like this, these fine, upstanding members of Society are often “Advised” to come to a decision that will be “Beneficial to the State of the Nation”
——–
A healthy degree of scepticism is not a bad thing in relation to politicians and the vested interests of commercial lobbies , and individual crooked lawyers and accountants etc.
But I think it’s unlikely that Lord Nimmo Smith and his wingers will do anything improper.
Their individual and collective sense of professional self-worth, and the knowledge that their findings of fact and their conclusions as to ‘guilt’ or ‘innocence’ will ( at least potentially) be subject to scrutiny by other, equally knowledgeable legal minds, will keep them right.
The worry is that a lot of relevant material might already have been destroyed, whether accidentally or deliberately, so any findings of fact might be restricted to perhaps one or two individual cases.
And, of course, their powers are not the powers that a Court has, to order searches of property or demand production of phone histories, emails, bank accounts etc. or compel people to appear before them or take evidence under oath, and so on. People might lie, knowing that they are not on oath and could not be done for perjury.
————————————————————————
John,
That’s exactly what I’ve been saying all along.
Only an Official Public Enquiry can sort this one out !
No hiding places for The Guilty, no hiding behind Lawyers, let’s get them up in front of National TV and see them face to face.
Let’s have ALL the emails, phone conversations, documents, etc exposed !!!!!!
As I also said before, there are 130,000,000 reasons for this to happen !
It’s a National Disgrace that this is all being sorted out “Behind Closed Doors”.
It’s probably the 2nd biggest financial scandal ever seen in Scotland’s history, outwith “Fred The Shred” of course !
Also, I don’t really understand your comment that “The worry is that a lot of relevant material might already have been destroyed, whether accidentally or deliberately, so any findings of fact might be restricted to perhaps one or two individual cases.”
Do you have any inside knowledge, or is it just hearsay !
Their will be a paper trail somewhere, and if we had a proper Public Enquiry, the Guilty One responsible for Shredding evidence will be brought forward to explain his actions !
Somehow, we all know this will never happen !
p.s. I also think “it’s unlikely that Lord Nimmo Smith and his wingers will do anything improper”.
I also think it’s unlikely they will do the proper thing !!
Just my thoughts !
Hola Blog
there is plenty wrong with scottish football to be discussed however, the current format of this blog/forum is not suitable to have more then 1 discussion running at any one time
This BLOG needs to have a forum section attached to it.
a BLOG to kick off the debate and a forum – which allows for multiple topics to be debated simultaneously, and the topic can be returned to when there is a development
This format isn’t working
Nowoldandgrumpy says:
September 8, 2012 at 22:52
Auldheid@Auldheid
Lovely word Skulduggery.
pic.twitter.com/OEIusm9g
Is it possible to use the siege mentality to his(Green) advantage?
Let’s say their hit with severe sanctions which will cripple the new co/club. Can Green spin it to the masses that they have no option to declare themselves a new club to avoid extinction.
If we are to accept the views on the forums and phone-in’s, as a fairly accurate representation of the average GreenRanger fans stance regarding the football authorities. They are already convinced that there is a conspiracy against the club.
How difficult will it be to galvanise that, soon to be, fevered opinion, into following a new club with no history and then investing heavily into a share issue?
It sounds a step too far. But, remember the whole world seen through Whyte except the Rangers fans. He still had a fanclub a week after going into administration, so reluctant were they to admit they were wrong.
How strong is Greens hold? Can he eclipse Whytes?
Captain Haddock says:
September 8, 2012 at 12:04
Is there a place or two in your analysis / hypothesis for SDM?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
CH
I `m sure there was some kind of plan put together by SDM, Whyte and Grier. The Ticketus accounts to June 2011 reveal that over £24m was invested in the final 3 months . This suggest a late one off lump sum investment which for confidentiality reasons could not have come from dozens of small investors. So it strongly suggests a planned investments using perhaps 3 or 4 nominee investors chosen by SDM/CW and paid for their services. Currently there is no online evidence suggesting Ticketus plan to write off their £27.5m investment in RFC STs
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The original plan went off the rails for at least 3 reasons
1 Failure by McCoist to get into Europe cost RFC at least £10m This forced Whyte to break the tax laws and got Clark so nervous he worried it might make D&P(New York) pull out of buying MCR .
2 Clark deciding to sell MCR to D&P. Thereafter he had to bend over backwards to demonstrate to New York that D&P were no longer Spivs by playing the Administration by the rules ( which includes maximising their fees within the law).
3 D&P going to court to try to prevent the Ticketus ST contract rolling over to the asset purchaser. At first look this seemed to be a double cross between Spivs. In reality it was a clever ploy to distance D&P (New York) from accusations of spivvery. All that really happened was that another route was found to keep Ticketus happy
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
For reference
Whytes Floating Charge (This STV report was later disputed by RFC(IA) in a statement they have now removed from the RFC(IA) website)
was reported at
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/108240-rangers-crisis-ibrox-and-murray-park-hived-off-to-separate-newco/
Extract
“According to the title deeds lodged with the Registry of Scotland, the floating charge transferred to previous owner Craig Whyte is still outstanding over the Murray Park training ground in Auchenhowie Road, Milngavie. However, it is unclear if this would have any impact on Sevco’s ownership of the facility, while Duff and Phelps have previously stated there was no debt associated with the charge.”
Meaning
There is no form lodged so far that removes the CW floating charge over Murray Park from the title deeds So it continues to exist until proven otherwise
parttimearab says:
September 8, 2012 at 20:58
Totally agree with you. Having responded sharply on occasion, I know the feeling well. We live and learn, sometimes.
Haywire says:
September 8, 2012 at 23:04
CW says:
September 8, 2012 at 21:26
What I am saying is that, especially in decisive cases like this, these fine, upstanding members of Society are often “Advised” to come to a decision that will be “Beneficial to the State of the Nation” !
Take for example :
(2) MMR Scandal and Autistic Kids ( a cause close to my heart !)
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Completely O/T, and I do not wish to intrude into a significant personal issue for you, but I am interested in knowing what you meant by this comment. I cannot tell from your remarks whether you believe the “whistleblower” or not.
—————————————————————————————-
Sorry for going OT for a while.
Haywire,
I think you are referring to Andrew Wakefield as the “whistleblower”. In answer to your question, No, I made my own mind up long before the “whistleblower” came to prominence that The MMR caused my Son’s Autism. It happened back in the early day’s of MMR, and it has been well documented since that The Pharmaceutical Companies responsible have also been well looked after and protected by The USA Government ! Our own UK Government is also complicit in this cover up.
Funnily enough, it was amazing to get the “Apology” last week from The Company responsible for harming The Thalidomide Kids, 50 Years after !
Sorry again for the OT, hope it answers your query, Haywire ?
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
No there will be no technical sliding about in the mire looking for an easy way out– the bench is comprised of big hitters with big reputations who cannot afford to become engaged in a justice which is the equivalent of a second rate shabby fix just to suit a club that is now defunct.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
BRTH…(cap previously always, fully & repeatedly respectfully doff’d)
However………
This is my biggest fear..we are at the point now where there can be no wriggle room.
But i fear.. big hitters or not.. “the bench” most certainly will have been fully…ahem..brief’d on the social unrest aspect of their deliberations.Their decision/ findings(as much as we can all see as obvious) i feel will be watered down, jargon filled & minimised.I sincerely hope that the “make it up as we go along” rules that we have come to expect in football will not apply in law regarding this particular case…
Aurelio Zen, tantas gracias :).
CW: suggest you consult Bad Science re Wakefield claims on autism…
CW OT I see that Autism is a cause close to your heart.I posted on rtc that my son is a 20yr old Autistic man so i also hold this close to my own heart.We have had to constantly fight red tape since he was 2 but eventually we got him placed in an appropriate school.He has now left school goe’s to tech 2 days and has a placement for adults with learning difficulties the other 3 days.I posted over on rtc a few months back about how rfc getting away with not paying thier way was affecting not only my son but many,many others[directly or indirectly] as he has had his transport removed for 3 of the 5 days due to budget cut’s and it really got to me how rfc not paying thier way affected h***reds if not thousands of innocent people who deserve better in life.
i now know why first post is in moderation now the above word
Cortes says:
September 9, 2012 at 00:18
CW: suggest you consult Bad Science re Wakefield claims on autism…
——————————————————–
Cortes,
Completely OT, but my final word on the matter. I live with an Autistic Son, I knew long before Wakefield came on the scene what caused My Son’s Autism as well ! I didn’t need Wakefield to tell me !
Sorry folks for the OT, it is my final word on it. Can we now get back to discussing the matters in hand this site was designed for ?
I was left humming ‘Wont get fooled again’ by The Who this afternoon. (still waiting on that book Pete). Great lyrics. Amongst all the transgressions and sideshows I’m still feeling down about the general state of Scottish football. Not least this afternoons result. I’ve been avidly talking about the need for a roadmap for years. We all know where we are. I’d like to be sure there was some sort of plan on where we are going. And that where ever it is, it’s somewhere better than the place we find ourselves in now. I get snippets. Little tasters. An amuse bouche. The academy systems set up by a handfull of top tier clubs are a step in the right direction. Still there seems to be no road map. Dissatisfaction in the national game is so often framed around a tabloid referendum on the current Scotland manager rather than the direction of the national association. Where is the road map? People need something to believe in. A great narrative. The feeling that we are moving forward to something better. People in place, and a belief in those people, that they are going to deliver something better. I see no such narrative and no such people. This is what will ultimately kill football in this country. Is everything I’ve seen in the last 30 years, a bit ‘chicken and the egg’?
dunloytim says:
September 9, 2012 at 00:24
CW OT I see that Autism is a cause close to your heart.I posted on rtc that my son is a 20yr old Autistic man so i also hold this close to my own heart.We have had to constantly fight red tape since he was 2 but eventually we got him placed in an appropriate school.He has now left school goe’s to tech 2 days and has a placement for adults with learning difficulties the other 3 days.I posted over on rtc a few months back about how rfc getting away with not paying thier way was affecting not only my son but many,many others[directly or indirectly] as he has had his transport removed for 3 of the 5 days due to budget cut’s and it really got to me how rfc not paying thier way affected h***reds if not thousands of innocent people who deserve better in life.
i now know why first post is in moderation now the above word
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Well, nearly the final word ! Thanks Dunloytim. Really appreciated, and I can relate to what you say ! Tax Dodging does affect people.
Torrievieja J.B. You hit the nail on the head with your post. 8 hours after the national game ended I thought that Serbian players gave a masterclass on how to control and pass a ball for 90minutes. this is what is lacking in Scottish football. Well paid Scottish players looked second rate in this game. It may take 2 generations to come up to the standard many European nations are experiencing just now. I too blame the coaches.
Dunloytim and CW
Your posts are not off topic. Very much on topic.
It’s not only the football world that’s been cheated.
It’s not only the football world that’s been cheated.CW says:
September 8, 2012 at 21:26
“What I am saying is that, especially in decisive cases like this, these fine, upstanding members of Society are often “Advised” to come to a decision that will be “Beneficial to the State of the Nation”
Giod help us x
God Help Us !!!
Apart from the Mafia look alike totally inept Scotland Manager, the only critical football issue in Scotland is Rangers/Sevco/Rangers Tribute Act and until these matters have been eventually dealt with, will remain so.
It would be useful if the tribunal sitting to establish whether RFC had registered players illegally or otherwise as a result of the use of EBTs passed comment on the status of that club.
If the panel find that players were registered illegally and a decision is made to remove titles – I think that it would be important for the panel to specify from whom titles were being stripped.
The dual contracts tribunal could by the law of unintended consequence for the first time settle the issue of whether the history of RFC can be carried forward to Sevco, from the perspective of the SPL.
Personally I believe that once liquidated the time-line of RFC stops. If the appellant has a right of appeal (assuming dual contracts are found to have been in play) then what legal entity will have that right of appeal? – Will Duff and Duffer (copyright acknowledged) make a return to the stage?
Interesting if not happy days ahead.
EKtim says:
September 9, 2012 at 00:52
Readcelt says:
September 9, 2012 at 00:33
Torrievieja J.B. You hit the nail on the head with your post. 8 hours after the national game ended I thought that Serbian players gave a masterclass on how to control and pass a ball for 90minutes. this is what is lacking in Scottish football. Well paid Scottish players looked second rate in this game. It may take 2 generations to come up to the standard many European nations are experiencing just now. I too blame the coaches.
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It’s a combination of things.
1.Lack of facilities.We were promised 10 football centres of excellence.we’ve got Toryglen.
2.Lack of coaching starting at school level,not just football but all sports due to budget cuts.
3.Lack of good quality coaches to coach kids from an early age.Billy Stark said Messi wouldn,t have made it here because of his height.
4.Lack of enthusiasm.if we don’t get kids involved early then invariably,they’ll end up playing computer games or such like.
5.Lack of volunteers.When i was at school it was the janitor,or a teacher who gave up their own time to help the kids.Government legislation doesn’t help here.I agree that kids need to be protected but these rules where everyone needs to be registered to run a kids club are useless and if a person gets a disclosure certificate to run a football club and then decides to help with his his local Scout Group,he needs another certificate.Too much red tape(and I’ve never heard of a case where a peodophile has declared him/herself to be so when applying for said certificate).
6.Lack of investment by:
a. The government.Sport is way down their list,unless it’s putting on the showpiece events.the Olympics cost £12billion for 3 weeks.If that was invested at 5% return 600m could be poured into sport a year.with approx 10% to Scotland on a population basis. That money could fund a long term plan to get our kids moving and to pay for quality coaches.
b. The clubs.Cost cutting almost certainly means a reduction in investment in youth.Cancellation of reserve leagues is now expected and due to the pressure to succeed(to a lot of clubs success is simply remaining in the division they’re in) clubs will spend what little cash they have on a player rather than investing in youth.
My eyes were opened a couple of years ago whilst on a break to LLoret De Mar.the hotel we were staying in overlooked F.C.Llorets pitch.The pitch was utilised almost non stop(artificial).We watched kids who could only have been 8/9 years old being taught skills.Most training was done with a ball.There was a lad who we put at 11/12 years old.The coaches had this boy practising bending a ball round a wall for ages.The standard of these kids was way above most of what we see here.That won’t change until we start addressing the points above.
Just a question that has made me wonder…….
How can we have a tribunal to sit this week in judgement on a case of whether or not RFC-NIL played many games where the registrations of the players on their team sheets were invalid…….
when……
against Brechin we all KNOW that Sevoc Tribute Band with their conditional membership aided and abetted by the SFA were allowed to play a game with players who were not registered correctly by a full or associate member.
Given that this is more recent and easier to prove can we not have that investigation first and then work backwards?
Or do we need to wait for 10 years to find out that T’Rangers were never realy registering players either?
Not knowing the full extent that SFA facilited this cheating means its like putting the kids on trial for shop lifting ignoring the fact that the parents were waiting outside in the van in the gettaway car……………
I watched the match for fifteen minutes yesterday. My only interest was to see if there would be some sort of public protest against the SFA. There wasn’t so I switched off.
Having attended three world cups, I feel profoundly sad. Those world cups were amongst the happiest memories of my life.
I feel our young people have been robbed.
SHAME ON YOU, OGILVIE AND YOUR CRONIES. GET OUT NOW.
Torrevieja Johnbhoy says:
September 9, 2012 at 06:25
Agree with all your points but going back to your earlier post the problem in Scottish Players is one on basic ball control.
However I do not agree it is because the coaches weren’t that great as players. Generally in the past players who had the best ball control didn’t make great coaches. I’m not sure they actually knew how they did what they did and therefore had no ability to pass that information on.
I believe it is simply down to what must be going on a school and youth level. The Serbians had a young team out yesterday and the first thing the commentators say is how comfortable they look on the ball.
I had a friend who once took over the running of primary school with a small catchment area. He got some coaching tapes from Holland and worked the boys using that information. From zeros to heroes in one season, won leagues and cups and played great football at the same time. No humphing the ball up tot he big laddie up front stuff. He wasn’t a great player and didn’t need to be.
Didn’t go to the Scotland game yesterday.
Didn’t watch the highlights.
Had the radio on, but decided to cut the grass instead.
This is what happens when the full depth and magnitude of the corruption comes into focus.
This is not an anti-Rangers blog. This is about identifying and exposing corruption in the Scottish game. My club, your club, and especially the governing bodies.
It is my opinion, and I know it is a widely held view here, that events of this summer have clearly demonstrated the lengths to which the SFA are prepared to go to protect and promote one club at the expense of all others and in contravention of the published rules of the game.
The incestuous relationship between Rangers and the football authorities (for which the evidence is currently overwhelming) is at the heart of the corruption in Scottish football. Given this is our focus, it would be easy to misinterpret or maliciously portray this as somehow ‘anti-Rangers’. The fact is that until this cancer is fully eradicated from the game, there can be no let up in the search for justice and reorganisation to to protect the future credibility of the sport.
I do have difficulty with some of the comments that we see from time to time – it is essential that this blog maintains credibility by refusing to descend to the tribal guttertalk that is so often found on fan sites. When we post here we should do so mindful of the fact that we are seeking to establish a community of fans from all parts of the game, including followers of Rangers in all their incarnations. Try not to offend – try not to be offended.
Should we be looking for and discussing other examples of corruption in our game? Certainly. Show us other examples and I guarantee there will be willing helpers to bring out the details and expose the guilty parties. The Rangers omnishambles has spectacularly illustrated the need for fans of all clubs to be vigilant in monitoring the management of their own clubs. If there is mischief afoot at my club – I want to know about it.
To be clear, I have no love for Rangers, but I do not wish to see ordinary fans of that club taken for a further ride by ruthless shysters looking to make a quick buck from decent folks desperate to see their beloved club survive. I do want to see the rule of the game applied without fear or favour. If this happens, I believe Rangers will cease to exist ass we have known them, but there is an opportunity for decent fans of that club top come up with a new incarnation that can shed the sectarian elemnts of the past and contribute in time to a better future for Scottish football and society.
My club, Celtic, has a difficult path to tread. I believe they have a duty not to further inflame tensions at this difficult time. They have to try to remain as competitive as possible, financially and in a sporting sense. They should be looking to ensure restructuring of the game takes place to the benefit of all, not just themselves, whilst maintaining their own business requirements. They have to achieve all of this with essentially the same voting rights as other clubs (the 11-1 situation is uncomfortable), and without appearing to try to dominate through their relatively strong financial position.
At the end of all of this, I remain hopeful that we can establish a revamped national game that cvan command the respect of all and offers a level playing field that promotes sporting integrity above all other considerations. I may return to Hampden before that happens – who knows? However I will go with a happier heart when I know the guys in the blazers are not the corrupt cabal of Ogilvie and co.
Lord Nimmo Smith was one of the judges in the appeal of Abdelbaset El Megrahi against his conviction. While I am sure that he weighed the evidence fully, and decided without fear or favour, he came to the conclusion desired by the governments of the UK and the US of A.
WOTTPI says:
September 9, 2012 at 09:07
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Watching the spanish kids was a revelation.I agree that good players don’t always make the best coaches.What I’m trying to say is that if our older professionals were not taught how to control a ball better,then what chance have they off passing on that ability.
It’ll take years to bring through quality coaches,never mind a conveyer belt of quality kids.Investment in our schools and youth systems is necessary but the public authorities only pay lip service to this.Meanwhile our kids get no excercise,the level of obesity rises and the NHS bill rockets.Helping to keep kids fit will help reduce the NHS bill over time.It’s not rocket science.
In real terms it doesn’t need to be expensive either.
What if,say,Arbroath sold Gayfield and in partnership with the local council built a small but well equipped arena with a capacity of say 5000,the bulk of the funding coming from the public purse.For an affordable rent Arbroath could play their home games there,train 2/3 times a week and house their admin in the office space.G4 pitches are now good enough to play internationals.CL games etc.If these were installed the local schools,youth teams etc could utilise the facilities day and night.If organised properly these pitches could be available from early morning till late a night 7 days a week.If the council & club got together and employed a couple of coaches and an administrator,you could have countless kids passing through such a facility every year,primary and secondary school coaching sessions,leagues.5-7-11 a side playing across the pitch if you required.Could be a source of new talent for Arbroath also.
All it takes is a bit of radical thinking and a willingness to see things through long term.
The SFA is not fit for purpose, in fact it serves no purpose other than to feather the nest of these who work there. Scotland will never qualify for any tournament when we focus on not losing rather than winning.
It does not matter how good your players are if you set out to not lose. Scotland managers over the last 20 years have been the worst managers in football
Apologies for typos – ‘ass’ instead of ‘as’ being particularly egregious… ;-(
Ttrying to type with kids running around – sheesh!
Stanblack says:
September 9, 2012 at 09:46
The SFA is not fit for purpose, in fact it serves no purpose other than to feather the nest of these who work there. Scotland will never qualify for any tournament when we focus on not losing rather than winning.
It does not matter how good your players are if you set out to not lose. Scotland managers over the last 20 years have been the worst managers in football
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We’ve had a succession of managers who refused to show a bit of ambition,call it what you like.It’s what they’re taught.most,if not all have came through the SFA coaching system at Largs.It’s only my opinion but I believe that if your tutors at Largs or where ever were brought up in the belief as players that the holding game is best then that is what they will eventually coach to their pupils.
That’s why I’m an advocate of bringing in foreign coaches,who have a different approach to the game.We still have too many people in power in the UK(not just Scotland) who think they know everything.Well we don’t quailfy anymore,Wales seem to be in freefall,Northern Ireland are hardly mentioned and our neighbour to the south,whilst claiming be amongst the greatest teams on the planet have actually only won once in their entire history,and that was at home with a rigged draw to allow them to play every game at Wembley.
Oh,and a wee hand from a Russian Linesman!
Met up with a few of the guys last night ,I asked if anyone had watched the match ,nope not one ,I had listened to some of it on the radio as I was working out in the back garden,listened to a bit of the phone in then sitched off,anyway we where lucky to catch Andy Murray play in his semi final and it made our night ,well done son,oh what were we on about ,Scottish football,oh yeah,scottish football I’m off out into the garden.