The Blind Men and the Elephant, a cautionary tale

ByTrisidium

The Blind Men and the Elephant, a cautionary tale

A Guest Blog for TSFM by beatipacificiscotia

As a child I read a poem by John Godfrey Saxe, “The Blind Men and the Elephant”, and stumbled upon it again recently.  It is a simple tale of how six blind men encounter an Elephant and attempt to describe the animal:

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!”

You get the idea.  The other blind men did little better.  The second grabbed the tusk and thought the elephant like a spear.  Others thought the elephant like a snake (the trunk), a tree (the leg), a fan (the ear), and finally a rope (the tail).  What does this have to do with this blog?  Let me explain.

There is a danger of all of us, whether consciously or unconsciously, making the same mistake as these blind gentleman.  It is too easy to use the parts of the argument that fit our values and belief system, at the expense of the whole truth.  The 13th century Jaina scholar, Mallisena, described a much earlier version of the same tale as a parable to argue that people deny various aspects of truth; deluded by the aspects they do understand, they deny the aspects they don’t understand.  He said:

“Due to extreme delusion produced on account of a partial viewpoint, the immature deny one aspect and try to establish another. This is the maxim of the blind (men) and the elephant.”

I am incapable of putting it any better than that, though I would go further.  I argue that people are deluded by the aspects that they choose to understand, and deny the aspects that they refuse to understand.  Which leads me to my tale …..

I have recently read a news report about a decision taken by the Advertising Standards Authority on advertising activities of The Rangers Football Club Ltd and their claims to history and honours.  It includes the following quote referring to advice from the SFA:

“We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football ‘club’ varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner.”

I was most unhappy to read this part of the statement.  I am yet to see the definition or statement of when you could “sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner”.  This is a contradiction to the definition of a football club given by FIFA; a definition which is handed down to the Confederations, and from Confederations to Associations. 

You may or may not be aware, the application of good governance in football is administered through club licensing.  This annual process ensures that minimum standards are maintained, to promote growth and development, and ultimately protects all of football – every club, every player and staff member, the integrity of every competition, suppliers of goods and services, the reputation of sponsors, and most of all the fans.  FIFA Club Licensing Regulations state that a license applicant must be a football club, defined as:

“Legal entity fully and solely responsible for the football team participating in national and international club competitions that applies for a licence.”

This is a clear and unambiguous definition, which is being ignored by the SFA.  Why is this issue so important?  Simply, a football club must be held responsible for its commercial activities.  For example, an over-ambitious and over-spending Rangers changed the Scottish football landscape forever.  Other clubs tried to compete in an unsustainable “Cold War”-like football arms race.  I believe Scottish football was damaged.  Many clubs have been taken to the brink of death.  This could happen in any country, in any league, anywhere in the world.  For that reason, a football club and its corporate body must be one and the same, living or dying, inseparably intertwined.  The separation of club and company is a myth, a myth dangerous to good governance.  Rangers (1872-2012) should be a cautionary tale told to every club owner.

There are many benefits to club licensing.  These including minimum standards for stadia and infrastructure, youth development programs, and much more.  I would heartily recommend that you read the FIFA document if you have the time. It gave birth to the word and spirit of Financial Fair Play.  Look at some of the financial benefits detailed:

 

10.3  Benefits

Implementation of the financial criteria will help deliver both short and long-term improvements for clubs, the licensors and the football family in general.  For the football family in general, the financial criteria should help to:

• safeguard the continuity and integrity of competitions;

• increase the transparency and credibility of clubs’ financial operations;

• improve confidence in the probity of the football industry;

• create a more attractive market for the game’s commercial partners and investors; and

• provide the basis for fair competition, because competition is not just about the teams on the pitch.

 

For the licensors, the financial criteria should help to:

• improve their understanding of the financial position and prospects of their member clubs;

• encourage clubs to settle liabilities to creditors on a timely basis;

• enhance transparency in the money flow of clubs;

• enhance their ability to be proactive in assisting clubs with financial issues; and

• provide a starting point for club benchmarking at a national level for those licensors and clubs who want to develop this aspect.

 

For the clubs, the financial criteria should help to:

• improve the standards and quality of financial management and planning activities;

• enable better management decision-making;

• enhance clubs’ financial and business credibility with stakeholders;

• improve financial stability; and

• enhance revenue-generating ability and cost management.

 

Important words, and I trust the value and opportunity these regulations offer are now clear.  Note bullet points 3 and 4, and that our top league currently does not have a sponsor.  The SFA must ensure the integrity of competitions, discourage financial recklessness, and protect football for everyone.  This is only possible with a clear, unambiguous statement that confirms club / company are one and the same thing.

To suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation is to undermine the definition of what is a football club, one of the cornerstones of FIFA Club Licensing Regulations.  For the SFA to suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation, or allow this belief to go unchallenged, is a shameful dereliction of duty.  It puts all of football in danger.  We cannot allow this.  There is too much at stake.

The poem ends thus:
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

The blind men were each partially right, though in their vanity / stubbornness / ignorance they failed to find the truth.  There is a lesson for us all in this story.  This may appear to be an attempt to renew the old club / new club debate.  It is not.  To see this as an opportunity to score points against Rangers fans is to completely miss the point – you have failed to find the truth.

This is global issue affecting one of the fundamentals of good governance.  Good governance must be the beating heart of our game – ensuring good health and long life.  I am looking at the here and now, and ahead into the future. 

We must protect and promote ALL of the FIFA Club Licensing Regulations.  To deny any part is to refuse to see the whole elephant, like the foolish blind men.

About the author

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,867 Comments so far

Kicker ConspiracyPosted on11:42 am - Feb 5, 2014


Greenock Jack says:
February 5, 2014 at 10:57 am

There is a smugness about the relative state of Scottish football that doesn’t reflect reality and that includes the dismissal that Rangers wouldn’t be missed.

———————————————————————-

Most fans follow teams in the top two divisions and so haven’t encountered a Rangers in at least two seasons.
Some may argue that they already don’t miss them.

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John ClarkPosted on11:45 am - Feb 5, 2014


I would like to express my disappointment at the crass stupidity of former Celt Joe Miller in spoiling the launch of the Celtic Former Players Association by taking the opportunity to act as a front-man for those in the media and elsewhere who maintain the fiction that a ‘Rangers’ is needed in Scottish Football.

A number of current Celtic players have in recent times been forced (I would imagine) to tack on some similar message to their public pronouncements.

What is needed in Scottish Football is Integrity at every level.

And the first move in acquiring that is to rid the SFA and SPFL administrations of the men who sold their souls to the devils that occupied the top step of the marble staircase.
The last thing that is needed are fifth columnists in the ranks of other SPFL clubs helping the 4th column propagandists in their defence of corruption.
if the CelticFPA is simply going to be among those who swim with the tide of corruption, I wish it anything but well.

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SmugasPosted on11:46 am - Feb 5, 2014


GJ

An Old Firm final would be at Parkhead.
They were no caveats when the venue was announced.
Aberdeen may well prevent this situation from coming about.

There is a smugness about the relative state of Scottish football that doesn’t reflect reality and that includes the dismissal that Rangers wouldn’t be missed. Ask Mr.Lawwell if he shares the view on a Rangerless game in Scotland.
==============================
In no particular order.

1/ Ask him yourself
2/ There appears to be a very recent case of smugness that Dunfermline won’t win?
3/ There is a growing realisation that a diminished Rangers future is a possibility entirely of Sevco’s making.
4/ “There is a smugness about the relative state of Scottish football that doesn’t reflect reality”???????

OK, I had written six paragraphs as a response to this but have changed it to a brief response that I just wish I could get my Daughter to deliver to you

SERIOUSLY?

(If it helps, I actually know what you are trying to say – game can’t lose 40,000 every second week ya de ya. ‘The game’ did not choose that situation. One of its participants did).

EDIT: Meant to add an apology re the original cup final venue question – I had of course forgotton that CEltic Park was confirmed – I thought it was floating as per the League cup final.

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Tif FinnPosted on11:47 am - Feb 5, 2014


Not only do I not miss Rangers, I think things have been cleaner and better without them.

Yes Celtic are dominating the top division, but that has happened before. Both Celtic and Rangers (the previous one) have had runs where they won that division nine times in a row.

However outside of that competition has been better, both in the leagues and in at least one of the cups. I think that other than Celtic the signs have been very positive with regards crowds and the Hibs Hearts game was an excellent example, both with the turnout and the competitive nature of the football.

Talk of missing Rangers to me is wide of the mark. At worst it is neutral at best we are better off without them.

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CampbellsmoneyPosted on11:48 am - Feb 5, 2014


neepheid says:
February 5, 2014 at 10:06 am
5 0 i
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Campbellsmoney says:
February 5, 2014 at 9:36 am

However if there is an insolvency event at TRFC, then the transfer of the property (even if £20m is considered to be “adequate consideration” for the purposes of the gratuitous alienation rules) in such a manner will be a challengeable unfair preference.
========================
Surely that is not the case if, at the time of the transfer, there are no external creditors? If taxes, wages, and all bills are paid up to date at the point of transfer, there are no creditors to alienate, gratuitously or otherwise. So far as we know, wages taxes and bills are still being paid on time. So there is no external debt.

Can creditors whose debt is created after the date of transfer, challenge the transfer of a property which took place before their debt even existed? I would be surprised if that is the case, but then I’ve been surprised many times before!
———————————————————————————————————————————————-
There are a number of points in your post.

1. At any given time in any trading business, there are “external” creditors (tax, wages, utilities, suppliers – whatever). It is simply not possible to run a trading business and not have some outstanding liabilities at any given time. Even if no liabilities are actually overdue for payment, there are still accrued liabilities. If I use £1,000 of electricity but I am not due to be billed for it for another two weeks, that is still a “creditor”.

2. Gratuitous alienation (better described as “transaction at an undervalue”) and unfair preference are two separate concepts. The issue is not about alienating creditors. “Gratuitous alienation” refers to the alienation of an asset. Alienation simply means “disposal” it doesn’t mean “alienate” in the sense of “annoying/hacking off”.

3. As I say above, even if all bills that are due to date have been paid, there will be creditors. When a company goes into a formal insolvency regime, the creditors will be increased by claims for breach of contract (think debenture holders for example or hospitality packages booked in advance that are not then honoured in the insolvency).

4. Unfair preference actions can be run by creditors but it is much more likely that they would be run by the administrator/liquidator. But in any case, the simple answer to the question is – yes. The legislation talks about an unfair preference “to the prejudice of the general body of creditors”. The “general body of creditors” are the creditors at the point of the insolvency, not at the time of the preference (the transfer).

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TaysiderPosted on11:52 am - Feb 5, 2014


Greenock Jack says:
February 5, 2014 at 11:36 am

What would be healthy about a league with only one possible winner?

A team on the financial equivalent of steroids in attempting to win everything was as healthy as the way Lance Armstrong won the Tour De France every year. I know that some like to deride the word “integrity” but our League has greater integrity now than in the era of helicopter Sunday.

We are in a period of adjustment. Hopefully in time a more honest, more even contest will evolve from the current situation. If it was all about just winning the League based on money spent, supporters of clubs outwith the big two (or the big four? in England) should logically have just given up long ago. Perhaps we just have the temerity to dare to dream?

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nickmcguinnessPosted on11:58 am - Feb 5, 2014


I’m still not convinced that the spivs have truly departed from Spivco. Not when they still have so many shares and the Easdales are acting as their proxies.
It could be that Wallace and Nash are getting a bit too close to the truth and the pressure is on to get them out. Pronto. With perhaps someone “acceptable” to the Abela clan like Chris Morgan joining the board.
If, on the other hand, the spivs truly are offski then I suspect they may have left carnage behind, which Wallace and Nash are only now beginning to unravel.
As the administrator to the Italian catering firm Gama SpA said, when describing his task in trying to find out where the company’s cash and assets had gone: “”It is not easy to trace the property – where you have to look for all the pieces to compose the picture is like a big puzzle.
“The Lebanese had a lot of imagination.”

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Greenock JackPosted on11:59 am - Feb 5, 2014


Smugas
1/ Ask him yourself
2/ There appears to be a very recent case of smugness that Dunfermline won’t win?
3/ There is a growing realisation that a diminished Rangers future is a possibility entirely of Sevco’s making.
4/ “There is a smugness about the relative state of Scottish football that doesn’t reflect reality”???????
———————————————————————-

1. No need to ask, we already know his answer.
2. Obviously Dunfermline might win but the bookies think it twice as likely that Aberdeen will (Dunfermline at 12/1 and Aberdeen at 13/2).
3. Short to medium term yes.
4. The use of the word “smugness” was more to do with a play on your username in reply than searching for the precise description.

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erniePosted on12:03 pm - Feb 5, 2014


What would be healthy about a league with only one possible winner?
Nail on head GJ. It is as healthy as a league with only two possible winners. Especially for the rest of us who don’t “see the join”. At least now we know how half of the deadly duo shafted the rest of us to keep their wee duopoly going and we live in hope that someone may manage to compete with Celtic within the spirit of the game. It’s called sport and it operates with or without huge amounts of dosh.

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JimBhoyPosted on12:06 pm - Feb 5, 2014


If as speculated for over a year now that the spivs and the main institutional investors are interested in ONLY the assets (sale or rent) then the only way rangers fans will get this noose from around their neck is to leave the assets behind and move out, start again backing the team, the club once more in the hands of those interested in the football side. I know that has been speculated before but I can see no other way forward other than to cut the money line from those holding out for a return on assets.

Groundshare somewhere, start afresh knowing that you are not making rich men richer at the expense of your team. If Ibrox is leased back to a rangers team it will be misery for a LONG time to come. To keep the lights on Ibrox, rangers (football) would probably need to find more money than they could ever produce over the next few years. Those who have failed to act to save the club should be left by the wayside also.

Move out, Give it 4 or 5 seasons where some cash reserves can be replenished and when some trusted leaders emerge to take the club forward. When those owning the big hoos cannot sell it and in fact it costs them just to maintain it I am sure they will be keen to get rid of it. A few seasons of rebuilding in the right hands will be better than chasing dreams and filling the pockets of the the ground owners forever. The fans would then own their club.

Rangers 5-7 yr plan should not be hoping to win the Euromillions or finding a sugar daddy, it should be a line drawn in the sand and a proper rebuilding plan regardless of how hard to take that may sound to some fans.. Anyways just my opinion.

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Tif FinnPosted on12:11 pm - Feb 5, 2014


It seems that Mark (Grandmaster Suck) Dingwall has become a defender of Brian (Stockers) Stockbridge, or as least does not see him as quite the pantomime villain others have portrayed him as.

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/stockbridge__the_easy_scapegoat_823696/index.shtml

Stockbridge – The Easy Scapegoat
By Grandmaster Suck
Updated Wednesday, 5th February 2014

Stockers has played the role of stage villain – but he’s more of a patsy.

The half-yearly figures are due out soon – it was 4th March last year – so Stockbridge ‘leaves by mutual consent’, pockets £200,000 and provides a smokescreen for the current Board.

The current directors public attitude is ‘nothing to do with us guv’ as if they accepted their positions from the clean hands of a sainted virgin. In fact, the power bloc which selected them, appointed them pre-AGM and endorsed them in their roles at the AGM remains largely the same group which pulled the strings of “the previous regime” which has now proven to be so utterly toxic.

Well, toxic in public at least. Many supporters of Chico & Co remain in love with the great man and his great big Yorkshire hands. But now that is the love that dare not speak it’s name.

So that love has been transferred to the new regime (same as the old regime) as easily as they transferred it from Bill Ng, to Bill Miller, to a nameless German bidder, to Charlie. To anyone really, so long as they weren’t Rangers fans.

Which brings us back to Brian.

Stockbridge was not the mastermind of Charlie’s takeover, nor was he a mere office boy. The masterminds have vacated the building but remain in power. Stockers was too high profile to last for long – the current Board know the vast majority of fans are very wary of them. Despite the wait and see attitude to Graham Wallace they know that season ticket sales will be tricky – having tried the ‘your club will die’ routine and seeing it flop a bigger stunt was needed to calm the masses. So Brian had to go.

I always thought it was a tactical mistake on his part to have a high profile – he’d have been better off in the shadows but the filming of Malky, the £200,000 salary and same again as a bonus made him an obvious fall guy. It’s worth comparing his salary with the last Finance Director who was on £124,000 and no bonus even in the years when European football meant we could be turning over £60million.

Once the figures started to come out – one million in the piggy bank by Easter – the writing was on the wall for someone and Brian fitted the bill. He’s been presented as the last of the Zeus Capital boys and his departure as heralding a new era. Only it isn’t.

It may in fact be unfair on our current Board but their performance in terms of providing comfort to the fans or building trust has been negligible – they simply remain widely perceived as serving the same masters as the last lot.

Brian Stockbridge as a fig leaf simply doesn’t work.

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CarntynePosted on12:14 pm - Feb 5, 2014


john clarke says:
February 5, 2014 at 1:56 am
18 0 Rate This

Bill Jackson says:
February 5, 2014 at 1:24 am
‘..They’re still hooked upto to the matrix.
Only a complete reboot will suffice.’
———-
Very nicely put.
The questions for us on TSFM are:
a)do they wish to be free, to unhook from the matrix?
b) can we help them rehabilitate?
c) should we bother our bahookeys , given the extent and duration of their wrong-doing?

Is forgiveness and reconciliation possible?
_______________________________________

Forgiveness and reconciliation are always possible.

The question is are ‘The Rangers’ and the extremist element of their support willing to change?

Such a change would be necessary for the rest of us to forgive and forget.

Well, me anyway.

The portents are not good.

Even after everything that’s happened they still continue in their own not-so-sweet way.

They are, after all, ‘The People’.

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SmugasPosted on12:21 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Greenock Jack says:
February 5, 2014 at 11:59 am

———————————————————————-

1. No need to ask, we already know his answer.

Agreed. Wanyama out, Griffiths in would seem to corroborate. Said before the only team that will knock CFC off the league is CFC.

2. Obviously Dunfermline might win but the bookies think it twice as likely that Aberdeen will (Dunfermline at 12/1 and Aberdeen at 13/2).

I’ve never done ‘bookies.’ Given Aberdeens recent record against Celtic at Celtic Park, regardless of last Saturday I would say the odds were high, or is it low??? (I’ll ask Ian Black for a lesson). Joking apart, that’s an interesting angle back at Ibrox. A cup run (if for prestige rather than economics) and the unbeaten league run makes the players and manager at Ibrox a lot more powerful than, for instance, out of the cup and an unassailable lead. That could work both ways of course. Just thinking…

3. Short to medium term yes.

Agree again. Looking back I should probably have said a growing realisation amongst non old firm fans of a future with a diminished Rangers (see, I said Rangers, not Sevco – must be slipping!), and I agree its for the short to medium term since with the fan base and new batteries in the abacus they should surely develop longer term.

4. The use of the word “smugness” was more to do with a play on your username in reply than searching for the precise description.

I guessed as much. Your subsequent responses didn’t 😆

Joking apart again. The key thing there isn’t the reaction of the rest of us diddy fans as such. If you don’t mind me saying the Ibrox support need to look in house first to their attitude on ‘the way things were.’ Helicopter sundays were fab for old firm fans. They were literally irrelevant to the rest of us especially since the money generated by them has now been so chronically displayed to have been distributed largely between them.

As if that wasn’t bad enough, we the non-old firmites are now led to believe that there appears to have been some element of jiggery pokery involved in sustaining said position. Suffice it to say that hasn’t exactly helped when you refer to such things as “reality.”

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JimBhoyPosted on12:28 pm - Feb 5, 2014


@Ernie
What would be healthy about a league with only one possible winner?
Nail on head GJ. It is as healthy as a league with only two possible winners.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-
Beat me too it mate… Leagues the world over have a strong 1,2,3,4 team who will generally win most competitions… Just how things are maybe thru population dispersement, history, some form of diversity, who knows…

My point is the teams outwith Celtic in the SPFL only have one big bhoy to beat and will generally have more success, should be looking to finish a place higher in the league, a positive higher hope of league success, get more cash for that, get a slot at European competition maybe, more money – more stability, prosperity, more investment in their success, more tv time with more player visibility and selling potential.

I think you could take you pick from the above based on one less big boy to play in the league.Certainly not Armaggeddon. Just my opinion and then again it applies also to rangers in the lower leagues.

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rabtdogPosted on12:31 pm - Feb 5, 2014


hi madbhoy24941
“using their voice as customers” doesn’t seem to have done Rangers fans many favours – activity & organisation generally seem to work better

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SmugasPosted on12:36 pm - Feb 5, 2014


JimBhoy says:
February 5, 2014 at 12:28 pm

I think there’s a crucial point in there JimBhoy and without putting words in Rangers supporters mouths I would expect them to say “the sponsors don’t seem to agree with you.”

That’s a very valid point. But my response has always been the same – since the 14th Feb 2012 (and in all honesty before that) the situation that the sponsors presumably do want was never going to be available. Some straight speaking along those lines back then – and that’s not rangers hating as such, just hard nosed business – should have reflected that ‘reality.’

With SFA and others guidance along those lines the irony is that the good ship RFC would probably have benefitted.

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AuldheidPosted on12:37 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Greenock Jack says:

February 5, 2014 at 10:31 am

The fact that there seemed to be little to no net gain from the transfer window just closed seems to suggest that other ways will be found to finance the club up until ST renewals .
==================================
Yup. I just wonder what those other means might consist of and if it is not money coming from football earnings, how fair is that on their competitors?

It is in the interest of Scottish football and Rangers (as their support view them) to get rid of the three Ds that appear to bedevil the club viz: Dishonesty, Duplicity and Deviousness.

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redlichtiePosted on12:38 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Craig Whyte re-appointed as a director of Sevco 5088 yesterday.

Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on12:46 pm - Feb 5, 2014


All The President’s Men
Well Jack has roused all the president’s men to undermine the messenger. They are picking through and ridiculing the minutiae – much of which isn’t actually in Phil’s comments. They are reheating all the old mud that failed to stick previously to any great effect. But the absence of a few words from Mr Wallace himself (not Lee) is resonating. Not even; “we will not be responding to outrageous comments from known Rangers haters”
The thing that intrigues me is what’s in Graham’s statement that is so incendiary other than his resignation? How will he explain, for the benefit of his future career, that he’s done his best, he’s done his all, but has been unable to prevail. He may explain in forensic detail the personality traits that make progress impossible, he may lay bare the conflicting priorities of those with their hands on the levers of power, he may even say the role was misrepresented to him from start to finish or he may take the minimalist approach as Liam Byrne did when explaining the situation to his Coalition successor at The Treasury in 2010:
‘Dear chief secretary, I’m afraid to tell you there’s no money left,’

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Para HandyPosted on1:03 pm - Feb 5, 2014


ecobhoy says:
February 4, 2014 at 5:37 pm
26 3 Rate This

Para Handy says:
February 4, 2014 at 5:02 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 4, 2014 at 3:49 pm

So they would stick them up their juke – so how do you stop them?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Easy way to stop them (and not just at Celtic Park) would be for the Club to announce that any non-approved banner shown would lead to the immediate suspension of any fan whose seat number is under the banner and it can be shown that they had used the ticket to enter the ground.
—————————————————————————————
I have no wish to prolong the debate but I think your solution is flawed and unacceptable. I don’t believe that someone who may not have had any part in bringing a banner into a ground and is not helping to hold it up should be penalised because their seat happens to be under where the banner is flying.

==============================
Eco, anyone who is under the banner can either make an attempt to prevent it being rolled over them or could leave their seat and let a steward know that they are not part of it.

There is no need for any police to go in with batons or to make any arrests, all it takes is for the Club to rescind the season ticket and/or for other fans to stop it happening through their refusal to take part. For clubs such as CFC with their electronic system that is very easily done (I note also that if you give your season ticket to someone else to go to a game at Celtic Park then you are at risk of losing it – probably a minor risk, however, it is against the Ts and Cs as my CFC supporting mate told me when I last went there to see Thistle play).

Unless and until clubs or the other authorities take significant action such things will continue and while I agree with those who seek to keep atmosphere at games, some things need to be addressed and the continued actions of a minority of supporters at at least two clubs in the West of Scotland need to be stopped.

I would apologise for prolonging the debate, however, I believe you are equally complicit in doing so. 😛 😀

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JimBhoyPosted on1:06 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Regards Lawell and the rangersless comment.. I guess rangersless in the top division may be more appropriate… Well timing is everything, we have all seen this play out since Mr Lawell and more said rangers were a needed entity…I think his public response would be generous to rangers as it is not worth the hassle of mr Lawell expressing any other viewpoint.. He gets enough bad PR running Scottish football it seems. 😉

Would Green, Traynor, Gough, DJ, King and more come out NOW and say that rangers are new, history lost etc etc.. Are there enough safe houses? Timing is everything.

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)Posted on1:07 pm - Feb 5, 2014


redlichtie on February 5, 2014 at 12:38 pm
4 0 Rate This

Craig Whyte re-appointed as a director of Sevco 5088 yesterday.

Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
——————–
Surely someone at RIFC should be questioning all these director changes at their inactive subsidiary?.

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ForresDeePosted on1:20 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Armageddon strikes again.

Dundee have appointed Paul Hartley as manager!

http://bit.ly/Ly8avW

First forward looking and not emergency/repeat appointment in years, possibly decades!

I’m a happy bampot this afternoon, lets hope it all works out. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Davie BPosted on1:28 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Viewing from afar – I keep seeing references to getting to SB renewals – this, in no way solves the financial problems at sevco. Cash does not equal profit – they are gubbed because of profitability, the reasons for no profitability have not changed. SB renewals give them a cash boost but it is just a sticking plaster – what director would knowingly take the SB renewal without massive cost cutting to go along with it – you would risk a jail term for knowingly doing that. And there is the conundrum – despite Wallace’s statements re cuts nothing has happened – the only way forward is to cut deep and cut quick – but they cannot afford it. Admin is the only answer for cost cutting. Re the creditors comments above – biggest creditor apart from RIFC is the employees who TUPE’d over – all that continuous service mounts up

Re deloittes, anyone think that they were shown a set of projections that showed a 2.5m deficit for the football side, effectively underwritten by the guarantee and they signed off on that basis for the parent co – actual work gets done, very clear that the deficit is huge and not covered by the 2.5m and they refuse to sign – the accounts will not get signed off – no auditor will express an opinion on the football side surviving 12 months from the date of sign off – 12 days will be a good effort for survival.

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Tif FinnPosted on1:32 pm - Feb 5, 2014


I think that’s a good appointment by Scott Gardiner. Hartley is an up and coming young Scottish manager who seems to be learning his trade well, coming through the ranks and “doing his apprenticeship” as it were.

Scot Gardiner seems a level headed sort of CEO, he apparently turned down the job at Rangers because he would not have autonomy to run the club as he saw fit and would not have the control he felt a CEO needed.

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aenmac75Posted on1:39 pm - Feb 5, 2014


http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/supreme/lists/r140204_108.htm

just checking imran ahmed procedural hearing was tomorrow, and noticed a few lines above :

P996/13 Pet: Paul Murray &c for orders under COS Act 1988
Maclay Murray & Spens LLP

DWF Biggart Baillie

LORD MALCOLM – K Neal, Clerk

Thursday 6th February

Continued Procedural Hearing
Between 900am and 9.30am

any info on this anyone ?

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AuldheidPosted on1:39 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Carntyne says:

February 5, 2014 at 12:14 pm

john clarke says:
February 5, 2014 at 1:56 am
18 0 Rate This

Bill Jackson says:
February 5, 2014 at 1:24 am
‘..They’re still hooked upto to the matrix.
Only a complete reboot will suffice.’
———-
Very nicely put.
The questions for us on TSFM are:
a)do they wish to be free, to unhook from the matrix?
b) can we help them rehabilitate?
c) should we bother our bahookeys , given the extent and duration of their wrong-doing?

Is forgiveness and reconciliation possible?
_______________________________________

Forgiveness and reconciliation are always possible.

The question is are ‘The Rangers’ and the extremist element of their support willing to change?

Such a change would be necessary for the rest of us to forgive and forget.

Well, me anyway.

The portents are not good.

Even after everything that’s happened they still continue in their own not-so-sweet way.

They are, after all, ‘The People’.
===========================================
Forgiveness is not unconditional although it can be given unconditionally.

The condition that brings forgiveness into being is recognition that a wrong has taken place and the degree of the wrong is recognised by the either by the victim, the perpetrator or both.

Normally the victim is the first to feel wronged by the action of another, but it is not always the case that the other recognises they have committed a wrong doing or, if they do, appreciate the degree and impact of it on the victim.

In the latter case it is always open to the victim to offer forgiveness regardless of the state of awareness of the wrong doer. The argument for doing so is that carrying a resentment for a lifetime has a continuing negative impact on the victim, whilst the wrong doer carries on as before. It is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

However whilst forgiveness can work in the case of the wrong doing and its degree only being recognised by the victim, the victim is not respecting or loving themselves if they offer unconditional forgiveness. There has to be an accompanying sense that justice is being served at best or protecting self against a non-contrite wrong doer repeating the offense at worst.

It is a whole lot easier to forgive and then reconcile (although one does not have to follow the other) when the recognition of wrong by the offender occurs, because both parties can work towards ensuring there is no repeat ,free from the poison of guilt for which forgiveness is the only antidote.

The sad thing is that “Rangers” (as a description of the whole) have portrayed themselves as the victims in this situation.
Now Rangers supporters most certainly feel that they have been wronged, but that wrong doing was not, as they lash out in their pain, done by the supporters of other clubs or the clubs themselves, but by those who governed their club badly and I most certainly include the SFA in that category.

That is not to excuse their support from being willing partners in the wrongdoing or enjoying its fruits, Walter Smith himself said they would not accept being second best (or words to that effect).

Taking a philosophical direction we would all benefit from drinking at the well of wisdom contained at the following links:

For the wrongdoers
http://leb.net/gibran/works/prophet/prophet16.html
” Much of your pain is self-chosen.
It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self. ”

http://leb.net/gibran/works/prophet/prophet8.html
” When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight”

And for those occupying the higher moral ground of the victim – food for thought

http://leb.net/gibran/works/prophet/prophet12.html

“And you who would understand justice, how shall you unless you look upon all deeds in the fullness of light?
Only then shall you know that the erect and the fallen are but one man standing in twilight between the night of his pigmy-self and the day of his god-self,
And that the corner-stone of the temple is not higher than the lowest stone in its foundation.”
—–
I am afraid there is some way to go before forgiveness and reconciliation can enter the stage because recognition of wrong doing and the degree and acceptance of guilt, not just in what brought about Rangers downfall, but worse ( imo), the ongoing attempts to cover up afterwards, still seems a road not willingly travelled (but where the upcoming UTT will be a milestone).

However it will happen, once the water from the well of wisdom is drunk, delivered in a cup called reality which will bring about the conditions that will allow the self chosen poison to be discarded.

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slimshady61Posted on1:41 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Greenock Jack says:
February 5, 2014 at 11:36 am
——————————————————–
What would be healthy about a league with only one possible winner?
——————————————————-
This reminds me of a conversation between Chick Young & Jim Spence on a Saturday afternoon in July 2012. Talk of an SPL (as it then was) without Rangers had Chick spluttering into the microphone “but that would turn the SPL into a one horse race and no one wants that…..”

To which sage point Jim Spence replied “as far as supporters of teams other than Celtic and Rangers are concerned, it makes not one jot of difference if it’s a two horse or one horse race; in fact the one horse race is preferable because the other teams have a chance of (a) finishing closer to Celtic, (b) finishing second and (c) winning a cup or two.”

And that is a fact – a one horse race is preferable. After all no team other than Celtic or Rangers has won the top league since 1985, almost 30 years ago.

Meanwhile in Germany Bayern are 13 points clear in the best, most highly attended and most profitable league in the world, and look like totally dominating German football for years to come. Yet the other German stadia are full and jumping because (a) it’s affordable and (b) the teams are all trying to play good football.

In England meantime, the other best league in the world, it is nearly 20 years since a team outside Manchester, Chelsea & Arsenal won that league and there is every indication that those 4 clubs are going to continue to dominate that league for the next decade or more.

So in conclusion, as many others have said, the only people who think we need Rangers back in the SPFL Premier League are the supporters of that brand and their (many) friends in the fast-shrinking print media.

But Rangers of course are dead and the entity that has assumed that name is dying. Supporters of that brand need to accept this and move on. Look at Leeds and accept that there lies the future of the Rangers brand, though in a smaller pool it ought to get back to the top league, if not the top, quicker than the team from Elland Road.

Once Rangers supporters come to terms with the death of Rangers, shed the umbilical cord that ties them to Ibrox and hence to the Spivs, and move to a smaller stadium at least in the short to medium term, then Rangers can start to reform.

It is unfortunate in the extreme that the Spivs were allowed control in the first place but that had everything to do with the previous owners, the benign press, the incompetent authorities and the toothless, disunited bears.

PS Has Dunfermline made any enquiries to ascertain precisely when it might expect the proceeds of the match on Friday?

if not, I rather suspect they are going to be left high and dry, as Dundee United were last year, as any money garnered from fans and the gullible state broadcaster which is covering the game live, will no doubt already be accounted for (and possibly borrowed against with the TV monies as security).

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Tic 6709Posted on1:43 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Davie B says:

February 5, 2014 at 1:28 pm
========================
There is a bigger problem,Big Phil is tweeting that he has heard that the £2.5 million has already gone.
No denial from Wallace about trying to get tick in London.

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easyJamboPosted on1:51 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Here’s a link to BDO’s latest creditors report for Hearts dated 31-01-14.

It gives a fair bit of detail as to the running costs of a football club (outside G51 and G40), and shows that the club should have sufficient funds to sustain administration for at least another two or three months.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/204800547/2014-01-31-BDO-Creditors-Report

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wottpiPosted on2:08 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Phil Mac fair doing his dinger on Twitter today.
Either he really has confidence in his info or the Bushmills is taking a hell of a beating 🙂

As I said the other day everything comes down to timing.

Phil’s assertion is that Stockbridges predication on having the last million in the bank by April, like all his earlier ones, was wrong.

Craig Whyte appears to have what is referred to in property development terms as a ‘ranson strip’.

Money is required, if not now, very very soon but they can’t get any because of CW’s letter before claim making any potential lenders nervous with regard to who owns the assets. Like any other lender, folks want to see the deeds so they can have some security.

I have always said CW won’t give a hoot if the Big Hoose comes tumbling down. He would rather have that as some form of victory to satisfy his sense of importance than head quietly of into the sunset.

If he can get a cash deal then all the better. However does anyone down Govan way have access to cash?

It really looks like being a Perfect Storm and if you recall the film even Hollywood’s favourite leading man, George Clooney, didn’t escape that one despite all his heroic efforts.

At some point the fantasy has to end when a real storm hits.

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John ClarkPosted on2:12 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Taysider says:
February 5, 2014 at 11:52 am
‘…..If it was all about just winning the League based on money spent, supporters of clubs outwith the big two (or the big four? in England) should logically have just given up long ago. ‘
——-
If I may say so, that observation is one of the best and most sensible to have been made on this blog.
The nonsense talked about ‘lack of competition’ because one (illegitimate) club is not in the higher reaches of the SPFL has been proved to be just that, absolute nonsense.

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AuldheidPosted on2:14 pm - Feb 5, 2014


wottpi says:

February 5, 2014 at 2:08 pm

I think Phil is teetotal so that rules that out.

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andypandimoniumPosted on2:25 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Greenock Jack seems to reckon the bookies odds are a pretty good indicator of which half of the “Old Firm” (sic) will have the greatest degree of difficulty in the next leg of their journey towards the much anticipated SC Final in May. 🙄

I wonder what the odds are on our friends in west Fife receiving their share of the proceeds following Friday’s tie? They wouldn’t use that cash to get to the end of the month would they? And then another home tie for March? 💡

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Tif FinnPosted on2:32 pm - Feb 5, 2014


If sport was only about winning then there would be very few athletes competing at events in the Olympics.

Realistically how many people were going to win the mens’ 100m or 200m. How many were going to win the 5,000m or 10,000. However people trained for years just to be there, just to take part.

How happy were the competitors who came second or third in those events, or made the final, or broke their nations record, or beat their personal best in the first round. How many were happy just to be there, because that is what sport is about.

The notion that for a specific event there is likely to be one winner does not stop other people taking part, or people wanting to watch the event.

In Scottish football Celtic will almost certainly win the top division this year, and Hearts will almost certainly be relegated. That did not stop Morton having a great day when they beat Celtic in the cup. It did not stop the Hibs and Hearts fans turn out in their droves for that game, it did not stop Aberdeen and ICT making the league cup final where I’m sure their fans will have a great day out and the rest of us will enjoy watching the game on TV.

Celtic are the best team in Scotland just now, that is a fact. They will almost certainly win the top division. However it is not the be all and end all of football in Scotland. There is lots more to it than that.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on2:33 pm - Feb 5, 2014


andypandimonium says:
February 5, 2014 at 2:25 pm

I wonder what the odds are on our friends in west Fife receiving their share of the proceeds following Friday’s tie? They wouldn’t use that cash to get to the end of the month would they? And then another home tie for March? 💡
===================================================================================
With the players alone costing well over £500K per month – if things are as bad as they seem it won’t be long before we hear about unpaid or “delayed” salaries. A couple of match days may tip that over into the next month – but not much more.

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wottpiPosted on2:46 pm - Feb 5, 2014


53. Tif Finn says:
February 5, 2014 at 2:32 pm

Correct
People and teams take part in sport for various reasons and to reach various goals. Sometimes the hard work can pay off when you least expect it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAADWfJO2qM

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MoreCelticParanoiaPosted on3:03 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Smugas says:
February 5, 2014 at 10:02 am

Wow, quite a 12 hours to catch up on!

Pick off the easy ones first.

Re Joe Miller’s views.
If a horse stumbles at Aintree, do they a/ shoot it or b/ drag it back to the start line and force it to race again against other faster horses?
——————————————————————-

No, they drag it back to the start line after it’s been shot.

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m.c.f.c.Posted on3:15 pm - Feb 5, 2014


“The upcoming accounts will prove the scare mongers wrong”

“Graham Wallace has held no meetings concerning his possible resignation ”

“There is no cash shortfall to the end of the season”

“Finances are in place to see Rangers complete this season and next season”

These are all things that the Ibrox PR machine is not saying – just the usual PR puff about players ambitions for the club, birthdays etc. http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Sport/Football/Scottish+League+One/Rangers

Do we assume the above statements are self-evident and so do not need to be said?

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on3:20 pm - Feb 5, 2014


slimshady61 says:
February 5, 2014 at 1:41 pm
26 0 Rate This

And that is a fact – a one horse race is preferable. After all no team other than Celtic or Rangers has won the top league since 1985, almost 30 years ago.

=============================================

I actually think a 1 horse race would suit Celtic as well….on a number of levels

1. they can cut costs/downsize the cost of the playing squad
2. they can invest that savings into Lennoxtown and develop their own talent – which is a boost for ALL of Scottish football (how many clubs have players who didn’t cut it at Celtic?) and could brining through their own ultimately mean an improvement at the national level?
3. they can invest the savings into international scouting – bringing in the next Wanyama, hooper, Ki, Bangura (hahahahahhahaha!!!)
4. the almost guaranteed income of CL participation more than offsets the drop in domestic attendances

of course, the lack of a competitor snapping at your heels will cause Celtic to grow fat and lazy and there will be a couple of crashes along the way – resulting in unrest and the need for a boot in the hawsmaws!

But that crash should just give the remaining teams an opportunity to be seized upon – especially if Celtic let the gap close far enough.

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wottpiPosted on3:33 pm - Feb 5, 2014


If Phil Mac is correct – what is the usual timelag before the MSM get their teeth into the story or Regulatory News items are announced via AIM?

What chance something gets announced last thing Friday night 🙂

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on3:56 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Why is Craig Whyte a director of a wholly owned subsidiary of the Clumpany?

http://rangers.g3dhosting.com/regulatory_news_article/301

are the SFA going to ask about his involvement…wasn’t it an absolute no no for him to be involved?

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South0fThe BorderPosted on4:07 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Charlotte’s back:
RangersNews ‏@RangersInter
Not so long ago a £10.1m loan only cost £250k. Murray borrowed that during an 8 month period in 2010 from Ticketus http://i.imgur.com/TM2gmC4.jpg

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AllyjamboPosted on4:12 pm - Feb 5, 2014


From the BBC website:

“Former Rangers player Alex Rae says it is “dire, desperate and not acceptable” that so much money has been taken out of the Ibrox club. ”

Wasn’t Alex Rae one of the men who took money out of Ibrox by way of an EBT? Didn’t that help create the scenario his second favourite club find themselves in? Of course, maybe he is going to pay back his ‘loan’ – but even that wouldn’t help TRFC as it would be owed to the creditors of it’s predecessor.

Still, he goes on to say he is confident that Graham Wallace’s measures will work, and that Ally will help him! It must be comforting to the bears that a man such as Alex Rae, with all his years of experience in financial matters, finds the time to give them such solace!

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valentinesclownPosted on4:12 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Auldheid says:
February 5, 2014 at 1:39 pm
Is forgiveness and reconciliation possible?

——————————————————————————————————————————-

They as mentioned are the people and seek no forgiveness as they somehow think they have done nothing wrong and have been victimised. This is a strand of being the fabric of society, the strand that states WATP then, WATP now, and thanks to SMSM, and the magic conditional (made up ) licence from the (not fit for purpose)SFA which guaranteed them the title WATP in the future.

I will never forgive the SFA and SMSM for their deliberate role in keeping both this WATP alive and the govan fabric of society entity alive to the detriment of Scottish Football and by doing so make all of us victims of this sham.
Do we miss this entity in our top league, IMO no.
If they return as they are will it improve our top league, IMO no.
If this new entity goes into administration will I feel sorry. NO

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andygraham.66Posted on4:28 pm - Feb 5, 2014


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-fans-take-first-steps-towards-launching-bid-to-buy-club.1391615903

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bladesmanPosted on4:34 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Wrt forgiveness, I fear that we have travelled too far down the path for this to take place anytime soon.
As has been said before, in order for forgiveness an acknowledgement of wrongdoing and a degree of remorse has to be forthcoming from the main protagonists, and from friends and relatives who support the team from Ibrokes, that isn’t in their collective mindset.
I have tried to have reasoned conversations over the last couple of years with these guys re what happened at Govan, but to a man they are in denial and seek to point the finger(still!!) at everyone else.
As long as majority of TRFC fans live in a parallel universe and consider themselves better than everyone else , and are offended by the idea that other clubs’ supporters can get along without them, then any form of a hatchet getting buried is a long way off.
My only regret from the last couple of years was that when my club had the opportunity to put Sally and his pals in their place, we capitulated and gave the hoardes a feather in their caps….
Life without Rangers, it’s not too bad thanks… 😀

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AuldheidPosted on4:37 pm - Feb 5, 2014


valentinesclown says:

February 5, 2014 at 4:12 pm

I think it was for folk such as those that the phrase “Hell mend them” was created.

And it will, taking the form of a reality that neither SFA or SMSM can alter.

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TartanwulverPosted on4:41 pm - Feb 5, 2014


andygraham.66 says:
February 5, 2014 at 4:28 pm

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-fans-take-first-steps-towards-launching-bid-to-buy-club.1391615903
————————————————————-
Surely a fan buyout must be the holy grail for anyone in control who wishes to get shot of TRFC – if everything of real value can be taken out in advance, whether extracting all the available cash or keeping/renting the properties, then it will ultimately be down to the fans to pay for the level of footballing quality they can or want to afford. Any subsequent blame for mediocrity (or to spin it more happily, any success that comes) will be laid firmly at the feet of the fan representatives / the fans themselves, and NOT at the feet of the current or past directors. Or at least, with every passing year, the directors’ actions will become less at the forefront of people’s minds, and the chateaux and bonuses can be enjoyed at leisure.

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justshateredPosted on4:42 pm - Feb 5, 2014


So ‘The Rangers’ fans are not happy because Celtic got to host the League Cup final as well as the Scottish Cup final.
Is this the fans of the same club that has threatened clubs and journalists as well as boycotting a cup tie last season against Dundee United?

It would have been even more interesting if the powers that be had announced it to be at Ibrox only for Aberdeen and Inverness Caley Thistle to utterly reject it out of hand. After all what goes around come around.

What a sense of entitlement some people have!
They cling to the lyrics ‘no one likes us, we don’t care’ and yet when that is demonstrated out comes the dummy and wild accusations start to be made against all and sundry.
The strangest thing about the above lyrics is that most normal people would, somewhere sometime, ask themselves ‘What is it about us that they don’t like?’
Is it the fact we are easily duped time and time again by any fly by night ‘billionaires’ who they defend to the hilt until the backside falls out of his trousers because he can’t afford to buy a new pair, or is it the fact that there is a large element of the support who believe they have a right to antagonise and victimise anyone they choose, or is it that they believe everyone else should pay for their success, or is it the superiority complex based on …………………………………. well nothing really?

Do they ever ask this fundamental question?
No they just simply stumble blindly on mumbling the above lyrics like some sort of mantra sporadically replaced by WATP.
Yes it really is hard to believe that this is the twenty first century!!!!!

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on4:44 pm - Feb 5, 2014


andygraham.66 says:
February 5, 2014 at 4:28 pm
1 0 Rate This

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-fans-take-first-steps-towards-launching-bid-to-buy-club.1391615903

======================================

25,000 at £20 a month – fair enough, will take just over 3 years for them to buy up all the shares. but ok, just about 18months to get 51% (assuming they don’t then have to buy all the remaining shares out)

will the club survive that long?

assuming it does and they now own all the shares – who is funding the £14m annual losses?
what about the stadium upkeep?
which of the many factions gets to sit on the board?

I actually hope they do it(well, i hope they die long before this, but if they do wriggle on, this would be quality entertainment watching them fall out on a weekly basis)

EDIT

by the way, less than 8000 of them took part in the IPO – 25000? aye, right.

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CampbellsmoneyPosted on4:48 pm - Feb 5, 2014


andygraham.66 says:
February 5, 2014 at 4:28 pm
1 0 Rate This

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-fans-take-first-steps-towards-launching-bid-to-buy-club.1391615903

——————————————————————————————————————————————-
…..and when they get to 29.9% of the shares (if they ever do) what happens then?

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ZilchPosted on4:51 pm - Feb 5, 2014


So, finally, we see the emergence of a fans buy out…

And so begins the next stage of Spiv Plan A to extract the maximum amount of cash from Ibrokes.

Transfer the assets to the holding company and lease back the stadium to the club. Sell the club to Ranjurz men for next to nothing, but make them pay the rent, fix the stadium, pay the exorbitant salaries etc etc etc

Who would be daft enough to fund all this?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-fans-take-first-steps-towards-launching-bid-to-buy-club.1391615903

Please, please, please try to persuade your Rangurz-supporting pals not to drop yet more hard-earned cash into this black hole. Think of the children!

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on4:58 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Of course, if the peepil had got themselves organised 2 years ago, they would have close to £10M in the kitty right now, enough to buy the majority of the shares or to “rescue” the clumpany from the administrators

but, they were just waiting for their beloved sugar daddies to splash the cash for them.

it’s not likely the clumpany will survive long enough for them to buy all the shares – and if it does, will the fans have enough in reserve to cover the horrendous debts and lease agreement to RIFC PLC?

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GiovanniPosted on5:01 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Allyjambo says:
February 5, 2014 at 4:12 pm

Wasn’t Alex Rae one of the men who took money out of Ibrox by way of an EBT?

————

Indeed Mr Rae took £569,000 in an EBT so perhaps if he and the other 71 recipients of £44,487,708 were each to make say a small donation of 10% that would keep the clumpany going until ST’s are due. Mind you if RFC lose the UTT then HMRC might come looking for their money.

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ecobhoyPosted on5:06 pm - Feb 5, 2014


andygraham.66 says:
February 5, 2014 at 4:28 pm

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-fans-take-first-steps-towards-launching-bid-to-buy-club.1391615903
=================================================
The story has been kicking-about on the Darkside for a couple of weeks. It’s just Moonbeams and more deflection. I actually hope that admin is just round the corner or the Bears will be fleeced yet again or should that be defurred? I also think the support is too badly factionalised for it to work.

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Billy BoycePosted on5:10 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Phil MacGiollaBhain ‏@Pmacgiollabhain 23m

I am hearing that a journalist asked a Sevco media chap about the possibility that VAT might be late. “No comment” was the reply.

Can I take it that Mr Irvine is now busy drafting another personal assassination piece on Phil for this evening’s Super Scoreboard?

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SmugasPosted on5:11 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Giovanni, was just going to say Rae and co might be better setting aside nearer 40% to be honest.

Also I’m loving the justification – naw this isnae a fleece cos its a share buy out. Let me guess. Is Walter fronting it? Is kingie coming in? Do you get a Craig white dolly with a set of pins when you subscribe?

This is as late as a graham Roberts challenge!

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SmugasPosted on5:16 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Billy boy

Who the hell let an inquisitive journalist into an Ibrox presser?

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m.c.f.c.Posted on5:18 pm - Feb 5, 2014


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-fans-take-first-steps-towards-launching-bid-to-buy-club.1391615903

And how long do they expect the share price to stay at 25.5p when they have committed to buying £500,000 worth a month and the bulk are held by asset strippers who won’t be selling because they have a better plan. Unless of course, waiting for the bears to buy your shares at 200p is an even better plan. Really, these guys aren’t safe out with more than beer money in their pockets.

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abrahamtoastPosted on5:24 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Does anyone else have this terrible feeling that a Rangers of some sort will be playing in a (possibly enlarged) Premier Division next season?

SFA, RFC etc, could spin that it isn’t their fault they went bust again – the lower leagues in Scotland simply can’t support a clumpany of that size. Only option is to get them into the top div as soon as possible.

Clubs in the bottom two divisions might well back such a plan, for the good of the game, of course, – they’ve had their shot in the arm from playing RFC over the last two years anyway. (You can of course hope they could see the potential of more income from them if they end up back in the bottom tier)

Upholders of sporting integrity would be told – Look, Armageddon didn’t happen without them, but think how much better it would have been with them. Can you really afford them to be gone for another three years, or possibly longer?

Haven’t they been punished enough?

Do the upholders of sporting integrity have it in them for another fight?

I sincerely hope so, because I think there might be yet another summer of disgrace on the way.

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Exiled CeltPosted on5:36 pm - Feb 5, 2014


wottpi says:

February 5, 2014 at 3:33 pm

If Phil Mac is correct – what is the usual timelag before the MSM get their teeth into the story or Regulatory News items are announced via AIM?

What chance something gets announced last thing Friday night 🙂

***************

When is the Sochi winter Olympics opening ceremony?

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m.c.f.c.Posted on5:39 pm - Feb 5, 2014


abrahamtoast says:
February 5, 2014 at 5:24 pm
===============================================================================
I think there was genuine fear and uncertainty about the prospect of Armageddon and Social Unrest. Enough to get The Rangers into Div 3, but not enough to get them into the SPL or Div 1. Armageddon and Social Unrest are now a joke – no fear remains – and any blatant attempt to help The Rangers will be clear for all to see. So the SFA/SPFL had better think very carefully about how such moves would be received – it might spark Social Unrest of a different sort – towards them.

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CarntynePosted on5:53 pm - Feb 5, 2014


abrahamtoast says:
February 5, 2014 at 5:24 pm
2 2 Rate This

Does anyone else have this terrible feeling that a Rangers of some sort will be playing in a (possibly enlarged) Premier Division next season?
______________________________________________________________________________________

Er!…No!

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Bill1903Posted on6:06 pm - Feb 5, 2014


abrahamtoast says:
February 5, 2014 at 5:24 pm
10 12 Rate This

Does anyone else have this terrible feeling that a Rangers of some sort will be playing in a (possibly enlarged) Premier Division next season?
————————-
Not a chance of that happening

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ddmcPosted on6:31 pm - Feb 5, 2014


In regards to shareholders of rifc & creditors of trfc,

Who are the creditors, well we know rifc were owed 16 million in the summer & this has likely increased. Even at best hmrc, utilities etc can only be owed a couple of hundred thousand, what voice does this give them in a CVA/admin event ?

Alienation, what makes anyone assume the rules will be applied to trfc, they’ve managed to ride roughshod over pretty much any laws so far !

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smartie1947Posted on6:40 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Just had the misfortune to watch Neil Doncaster on STV News, Edinburgh telling the interviewer that he believed the decision not to allow Rudi Skacel to re-sign for Hearts was correct and in line with the current rule book.
He continued by stating that the SPFL rule-book was designed to be fair and for the benefit of all member clubs.
At that moment I had to make a swift switch to another room as I felt an overwhelming urge to clash the remote control through the offending screen.

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twopandaPosted on6:43 pm - Feb 5, 2014


m.c.f.c. says:
February 5, 2014 at 6:04 pm
manandboy says:
February 5, 2014 at 5:52 pm
Rangers fans take first steps towards taking bait to buy club
============================================================================Rangers fans take first steps towards taking bait to buy 29.9% of the holding company that owns “their club” before the holding company puts “their club” into administration and then uses Resolution 10 to dilute their shareholding to 0.00299% before selling the properties and sailing off to the Caribbean.
.
What can go wrong?
.
.
Nothing!!
– with spiv lyrics and music to accompany said ‘investments` over the Tannoy…
& Starring Flash Harry – the Convivial Spiv from mrsTPs Alma Mater –
Verse 2 -– sing-along lads…..!!! ……- Follow [ 😉 ] The Bouncing Ball…….

“Stride towards your fortune boldly on your way”,
“Never once forgetting there’s one born every day”
.
Nah – They wouldn`t be so silly as to be duped yet again – would they? :slamb:
.
Blimey!

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on6:54 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Is this a wind up?

http://www.whoismind.com/whois/bustcompanies.com.html

Scroll down to Whois data

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ianagainPosted on7:01 pm - Feb 5, 2014


nowoldandgrumpy says:

February 5, 2014 at 6:54 pm

0

0

Rate This

Quantcast

Is this a wind up?

http://www.whoismind.com/whois/bustcompanies.com.html

Scroll down to Whois data
________________________________
More interestingly. Does any of the Charlotte stuff come from these IP addresses?

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ianagainPosted on7:08 pm - Feb 5, 2014


South0fThe Border says:

February 5, 2014 at 4:07 pm

Charlotte’s back:
RangersNews ‏@RangersInter
Not so long ago a £10.1m loan only cost £250k. Murray borrowed that during an 8 month period in 2010 from Ticketus http://i.imgur.com/TM2gmC4.jpg
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For Pretendygerseconomics peepul:
This actually equates to paying £10.1m PLUS £250,000 for a loan.
As made v clear previously a share price at 25.44p now can become a 90p plus plus plus share as soon as someone knows your in the market. So its well advised NOT to advertise you intentions in the Herald.
Ooops.

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scottcPosted on7:08 pm - Feb 5, 2014


nowoldandgrumpy says:
February 5, 2014 at 6:54 pm
1 1 Rate This

Is this a wind up?

http://www.whoismind.com/whois/bustcompanies.com.html

Scroll down to Whois data

Not a wind up but may not really be Craig Whyte. I note the email address used is the one that Charlotte had (did she not use it herself at times?) Odd one, but maybe CW has had a new business idea 😀

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ianagainPosted on7:12 pm - Feb 5, 2014


Jean
Please don’t. you’ll only get upset. 😡

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Danish PastryPosted on7:21 pm - Feb 5, 2014


nowoldandgrumpy says:
February 5, 2014 at 6:54 pm
1 1 Rate This

Is this a wind up?

http://www.whoismind.com/whois/bustcompanies.com.html

Scroll down to Whois data
———–

Nice address. And a tennis court at the back. A mini chateau. Is that where his dad lives/lived?

Edit: same details come up here: http://www.whois.com/whois/bustcompanies.com

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billyj1Posted on7:21 pm - Feb 5, 2014


A Tweet was posted today indicating that Superscoreboard were going to make a statement further to a Statement read out last night concerning Rangers.
For that reason I tuned in earlier this evening, and after introductions the subject was raised.
Apparently they have been inundated with complaints because in last nights programme reference was made to Stalag Sevco, which has really upset their fans.
Superscoreboard stated that following Tweets from our Phil yesterday concerning the suggestion that their CEO was considering walking away, they approached Rangers for a statement.
That statement was provided by Rangers and read out in full on the programme last night.
Unfortunately in Rangers own Statement they had repeated the phrase ‘Stalag Sevco’ which Clyde simply repeated verbatim.
No apology for repeating the phrase was deemed necessary or appropriate.
Another spectacular own goal me thinks.

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