The Blind Men and the Elephant, a cautionary tale

A Guest Blog for TSFM by beatipacificiscotia

As a child I read a poem by John Godfrey Saxe, “The Blind Men and the Elephant”, and stumbled upon it again recently.  It is a simple tale of how six blind men encounter an Elephant and attempt to describe the animal:

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!”

You get the idea.  The other blind men did little better.  The second grabbed the tusk and thought the elephant like a spear.  Others thought the elephant like a snake (the trunk), a tree (the leg), a fan (the ear), and finally a rope (the tail).  What does this have to do with this blog?  Let me explain.

There is a danger of all of us, whether consciously or unconsciously, making the same mistake as these blind gentleman.  It is too easy to use the parts of the argument that fit our values and belief system, at the expense of the whole truth.  The 13th century Jaina scholar, Mallisena, described a much earlier version of the same tale as a parable to argue that people deny various aspects of truth; deluded by the aspects they do understand, they deny the aspects they don’t understand.  He said:

“Due to extreme delusion produced on account of a partial viewpoint, the immature deny one aspect and try to establish another. This is the maxim of the blind (men) and the elephant.”

I am incapable of putting it any better than that, though I would go further.  I argue that people are deluded by the aspects that they choose to understand, and deny the aspects that they refuse to understand.  Which leads me to my tale …..

I have recently read a news report about a decision taken by the Advertising Standards Authority on advertising activities of The Rangers Football Club Ltd and their claims to history and honours.  It includes the following quote referring to advice from the SFA:

“We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football ‘club’ varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner.”

I was most unhappy to read this part of the statement.  I am yet to see the definition or statement of when you could “sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner”.  This is a contradiction to the definition of a football club given by FIFA; a definition which is handed down to the Confederations, and from Confederations to Associations. 

You may or may not be aware, the application of good governance in football is administered through club licensing.  This annual process ensures that minimum standards are maintained, to promote growth and development, and ultimately protects all of football – every club, every player and staff member, the integrity of every competition, suppliers of goods and services, the reputation of sponsors, and most of all the fans.  FIFA Club Licensing Regulations state that a license applicant must be a football club, defined as:

“Legal entity fully and solely responsible for the football team participating in national and international club competitions that applies for a licence.”

This is a clear and unambiguous definition, which is being ignored by the SFA.  Why is this issue so important?  Simply, a football club must be held responsible for its commercial activities.  For example, an over-ambitious and over-spending Rangers changed the Scottish football landscape forever.  Other clubs tried to compete in an unsustainable “Cold War”-like football arms race.  I believe Scottish football was damaged.  Many clubs have been taken to the brink of death.  This could happen in any country, in any league, anywhere in the world.  For that reason, a football club and its corporate body must be one and the same, living or dying, inseparably intertwined.  The separation of club and company is a myth, a myth dangerous to good governance.  Rangers (1872-2012) should be a cautionary tale told to every club owner.

There are many benefits to club licensing.  These including minimum standards for stadia and infrastructure, youth development programs, and much more.  I would heartily recommend that you read the FIFA document if you have the time. It gave birth to the word and spirit of Financial Fair Play.  Look at some of the financial benefits detailed:

 

10.3  Benefits

Implementation of the financial criteria will help deliver both short and long-term improvements for clubs, the licensors and the football family in general.  For the football family in general, the financial criteria should help to:

• safeguard the continuity and integrity of competitions;

• increase the transparency and credibility of clubs’ financial operations;

• improve confidence in the probity of the football industry;

• create a more attractive market for the game’s commercial partners and investors; and

• provide the basis for fair competition, because competition is not just about the teams on the pitch.

 

For the licensors, the financial criteria should help to:

• improve their understanding of the financial position and prospects of their member clubs;

• encourage clubs to settle liabilities to creditors on a timely basis;

• enhance transparency in the money flow of clubs;

• enhance their ability to be proactive in assisting clubs with financial issues; and

• provide a starting point for club benchmarking at a national level for those licensors and clubs who want to develop this aspect.

 

For the clubs, the financial criteria should help to:

• improve the standards and quality of financial management and planning activities;

• enable better management decision-making;

• enhance clubs’ financial and business credibility with stakeholders;

• improve financial stability; and

• enhance revenue-generating ability and cost management.

 

Important words, and I trust the value and opportunity these regulations offer are now clear.  Note bullet points 3 and 4, and that our top league currently does not have a sponsor.  The SFA must ensure the integrity of competitions, discourage financial recklessness, and protect football for everyone.  This is only possible with a clear, unambiguous statement that confirms club / company are one and the same thing.

To suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation is to undermine the definition of what is a football club, one of the cornerstones of FIFA Club Licensing Regulations.  For the SFA to suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation, or allow this belief to go unchallenged, is a shameful dereliction of duty.  It puts all of football in danger.  We cannot allow this.  There is too much at stake.

The poem ends thus:
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

The blind men were each partially right, though in their vanity / stubbornness / ignorance they failed to find the truth.  There is a lesson for us all in this story.  This may appear to be an attempt to renew the old club / new club debate.  It is not.  To see this as an opportunity to score points against Rangers fans is to completely miss the point – you have failed to find the truth.

This is global issue affecting one of the fundamentals of good governance.  Good governance must be the beating heart of our game – ensuring good health and long life.  I am looking at the here and now, and ahead into the future. 

We must protect and promote ALL of the FIFA Club Licensing Regulations.  To deny any part is to refuse to see the whole elephant, like the foolish blind men.

This entry was posted in General by Trisidium. Bookmark the permalink.
Tom Byrne

About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,867 thoughts on “The Blind Men and the Elephant, a cautionary tale


  1. Phil Mac’s piece spoke about Wallace steering the club/company towards a quick administration to rid them of contracts, that were signed by companies in good faith, that ‘The Rangers’ think are inhibiting their growth.
    So less than TWO years after promising the earth to these companies to get them in on the first place they plan, if Phil is correct, to stiff people again.

    Can some one of a legal mind advise would these contracts be nulled by Administration?
    I thought it would only be liquidation that could do that.


  2. Barcabhoy says:
    February 7, 2014 at 6:52 pmIn

    Celtic have just announced another spectacular set of financials . The position of robust good health is corporate speak for ” happy as f*** ”
    ___________________________________________________________________
    Celtic are raking it in but still can’t find the money to sign a CL standard goal scorer. That might mean they could fail to progress beyond the qualifying rounds and if that were to happen two years in a row then the finances would look very different. To some extent the CL supplements the income lost from a drop in crowds and with no Rangers around the lack of competition/interest may see a further decrease.

    If they fail to make the CL they become less attractive to the type of player they can turn a good profit on.

    I’m not knocking Celtic’s financial achievement all I’m saying is that it doesn’t take much to knock a club off course.

    Well done to DUFC for getting the banking leeches off their backs. I hope their consortium is in for the long term and not expecting money back from the sale of players.


  3. Bill1903 says:
    February 7, 2014 at 6:17 pm

    Interesting article about Aberdonians by Michael Gannon in today’s Daily Ranger.
    I won’t put think link up but it is relative to some of the squirrel/discussion we’ve had this week.
    —————————————
    Cheers Bill,
    I enjoyed that, and the comments. Had to go onto Private Browsing mode before accessing the Daily Ranger site though. Imagine if my wife found that in the history!


  4. Jagsman says:
    February 7, 2014 at 8:16 pm
    ‘.Judging by the TV pictures, if it’s 40,000,..’
    ——–
    At the start of the game, the radio commentator’s estimate was c. 20 000-but of course the match was being televised


  5. arabest1 says:
    February 7, 2014 at 8:39 pm

    Slimshady, I do understand the frustration of Celtic fans over the Nevin thing, it is reasonable to assume the BBC we’re got at by the Ibrox PR machine and Nevin may have been naive, but let’s be fair. Nevin has said he could no longer take his kids to Celtic Park because of elements of the support were engaging in sing-songs that were unsavoury, to say the least. Is it inconceivable that Pat heard those unsavoury ditties on his approach to the stadium? That Nevin heard those songs coming from Celtic fans on cup final day in Glasgow is a copper bottomed certainty, (I know I have countless times) so when asked about it he gave an unequivocal condemnation, to withdraw the condemnation or start back peddling would have left hi open to ridicule from all sides. I get the point about songs erroneously labelled ‘sectarian’, and no doubt JI muddied the water there to assist his agenda, but the song list in and around the stadium may have contained more than TFOA!

    Dare I suggest the Celtic fans are engaging in a bit of whataboutery here? Perhaps we should all move on from this and the vendetta should be called off!
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I will be upfront. I have a wee soft spot for Pat after watching him destroy Motherwell in a Scottish Cup game when he played for Clyde and also because he went to the same higher educational establishment as me (I recall he was on one of the Diddy courses).

    The day after the game I was greetin’ intae ma dinner in the canteen (or Refectory as some might prefer) telling my Celtic pal Big Jim how Pat had played a blinder. Big Jim pointed across the room and said ” there he is over there”. On the way out I stopped at his table and said to him ” you played a blinder last night wee man” and he said “aye thanks”.

    I think he was “duped” by a mentality in Scotland that is hell bent on finding a compensating error if one of the Old Firm or their support do anything right or wrong. It’s a form of whataboutery but the media cannot talk or write about one without bringing the other into it. For me it is a mindset I’ve always rejected. Pat probably does too and as Arabest says Pat is one of the good guys in the noble quest to rid our country of sectarianism – whichever side it comes from because it makes for a bitter place to live in.


  6. Aberdeen Fans could do their Club and Scottish Football a big favour by applauding Neil Lennon at tomorrows game
    All genuine fans will understand the significance
    The MSM wont report it


  7. I reckon Phil has followed through on the stories (circa Oct 13) abounding around Mathers time viz Garrion CGs directorship of same, the Albion and Edminston house purchase whereby very lucrative contracts were handed out to family and friends.

    These were all factors in the “redoubtable George” agitation that very latterly led to the pre AGM protests.

    Both George and Phil I believe will both, from opposite sides of the fence be left saying “told you so”


  8. GoosyGoosy says:
    February 7, 2014 at 9:27 pm
    4 0 Rate This

    Aberdeen Fans could do their Club and Scottish Football a big favour by applauding Neil Lennon at tomorrows game
    All genuine fans will understand the significance
    The MSM wont report it
    —————————————
    Absolutely
    That would be a great idea but sadly it won’t happen.
    A lot of bitterness due to the reporting
    I just hope everything passes off safely enough
    (Oh and a thumping win for the Dons obviously 😆 )


  9. fara1968 says:
    February 7, 2014 at 8:13 pm

    Hi Pictish,
    Re your reply to my early morning post. The point I was trying to make, (probably not very well executed) was not really anything to do with fan behaviour and how it is represented in the press. I was trying to point out that in my opinion McCoist can get away with a lot more than other managers from the press, especially Lennon. Who some MSM hacks ignorantly think he can provoke some of the mindless attention he has had to endure.
    ——————————–
    Here’s hoping for a good (and fair!) game tomorrow. I think that both managers have friends in the media and can manipulate the news (and their employers). I guess Rangers have a history of paying big money for professional muck-rakers so are more effective in disrupting other teams before big matches, but it looks like Celtic are becoming equally effective on the cheap (a drink or two for the BBC clown?).


  10. Various news outlets now picking up on the board statement( BT Sport, Eurosport and presumably others).

    Presumably all over the SMSM tomorrow.

    In other words anyone who was unaware that there were “numerous allegations about the business affairs of Rangers Football Club.” circulating in cyberspace will sure be aware of them tomorrow.


  11. GoosyGoosy says:
    February 7, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    Aberdeen Fans could do their Club and Scottish Football a big favour by applauding Neil Lennon at tomorrows game
    All genuine fans will understand the significance
    The MSM wont report it
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    They should also be made to sing “there’s only one Neil Lennon”. Let’s not get carried away – it is a Scottish Cup game carrying the right to meet Rangers in the Final. It needs to remain competitive.


  12. Thought it was funny that when Daly bloodied his shirt, they didn’t have another with his number on, so he had to wear a blue coloured top with no name or number, so no one watching could recognise him. Never mind the money situation that implies, I think it must feel like that for those SPL players who signed for the(m)oney. No one sees them down there in the 3rd division!

    It struck me most when the commentator mentioned that ‘young’ Templeton was now in his mid-20s. He’s not a bad player – how will he feel when he looks back and realises he wasted 3 (or more) years playing outwith the top division? I’d imagine he might be a Scotland regular if he was playing with and against good players each week.


  13. One minute ago, on BBC radio, Chick Young just shows his true colours. Chick’s obviously on a high as his big team have won tonight. Asked what would happen if his big team was drawn against his wee team, Chick spluttered and eventually said that he would back his big team to progress as long as they avoid the winners of the Celtic Vs Aberdeen in the Quarter Final. Even stated that the rangers team was already of a Premier League standard! WTF!!!!!! They’re in the 3rd Div (Old School by the way!), hardly Premier league standard, considering they were playing another 3rd Div team tonight (I don’t go with this Premiership, Championship, 1st Div and 2nd Div rubbish. There are 4 divisions, 1,2,3 & 4, let’s keep it simple)

    What a Cheeky ChickoPhant he is? I hope the quarter final draw is kind to him.


  14. parttimearab says:
    February 7, 2014 at 9:51 pm
    Various news outlets now picking up on the board statement( BT Sport, Eurosport and presumably others).

    Presumably all over the SMSM tomorrow.

    In other words anyone who was unaware that there were “numerous allegations about the business affairs of Rangers Football Club.” circulating in cyberspace will sure be aware of them tomorrow.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Credit to Phil on getting it out there but as he continually says to the MSM : ” is there any one of youse out there brave enough to run with the story”.

    I think we already know the answer and until press ownership, issues of professionalism and press freedom are tackled it will be more of the same.


  15. justshatered says:

    February 7, 2014 at 9:07 pm

    Phil Mac’s piece spoke about Wallace steering the club/company towards a quick administration to rid them of contracts, that were signed by companies in good faith, that ‘The Rangers’ think are inhibiting their growth.
    So less than TWO years after promising the earth to these companies to get them in on the first place they plan, if Phil is correct, to stiff people again.

    Can some one of a legal mind advise would these contracts be nulled by Administration?
    I thought it would only be liquidation that could do that.
    —————————————————————————————-
    JS

    My question also. How do they break these contracts, as long as they are being “fulfilled” in the “Craig Mather signed this”sense of a contract. I don’t think this is stiffing genuine companies, rather ridding themselves of shadow contractors(as GW sees them).
    Seems a bit akin to the Imran claim.
    I have paper from the “boss” give me my money.


  16. justshatered says:

    February 7, 2014 at 9:07 pm

    Phil Mac’s piece spoke about Wallace steering the club/company towards a quick administration to rid them of contracts, that were signed by companies in good faith, that ‘The Rangers’ think are inhibiting their growth.
    So less than TWO years after promising the earth to these companies to get them in on the first place they plan, if Phil is correct, to stiff people again.

    Can some one of a legal mind advise would these contracts be nulled by Administration?
    I thought it would only be liquidation that could do that.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Campbellsmoney is your man for this sort of stuff but I’m thinking pre pack which is what they mean by controlled administration.


  17. Fergussingstheblues, it’s Premiership, Championship, League 1 and League 2. I agree the terminology is nonsense, though. I think it was Suggs that came up with it. 😆


  18. Anyways

    Was GW in attendance or not.

    I’ve some stock shorting to do.

    Or not.

    Genuine replies from those in attendance appreciated.

    Picture proof time stamped excellent.

    Cheers 😈


  19. I watched about twenty minutes of tonight’s game, a bit in each half and no one stood out.
    How many, if any would make the Celtic or Aberdeen starting lineups tomorrow?
    On tonight’s showing I reckon round about none.
    Absolutely awful football against a team of kids from what I saw.


  20. Flocculent Apoidea says:
    February 7, 2014 at 10:28 pm

    Fergussingstheblues, it’s Premiership, Championship, League 1 and League 2. I agree the terminology is nonsense, though. I think it was Suggs that came up with it.
    ======================================

    Come on now, FA, that’s Madness! 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th, it makes sense!

    When I was at school, I was a good runner, but not the best, always in the top 4 though. When the prizes were dished out, it was simple, you were either 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th.

    In todays SPFL speak, I can either be the Premier, Champion or 1st or 2nd.

    Now I’m confused! Definately getting old!

    Note to SPFL: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

    BTW, how demeaning must it be to past winners of the old 1st Div, gaining promotion to the then Premier League back in the day, proud of their achievement. Their CV still says “1st Div Champions”, but everyone now thinks “Ah, 3rd Division!”

    Ah, the old days. As we used to say in the Air Force, “I remember when Pontious was a Pilot!”


  21. jimlarkin says:
    February 7, 2014 at 6:32 pm

    “The Club has decided to make this statement as unchallenged, ill-informed and inaccurate comments are damaging to the reputation of Rangers Football Club” .

    We’ve instructed our lawyers to close down the blog immediately,and we’ll be suing him for defamation!
    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    Phil’s blog is still up and running.

    When does immediately not mean immediately?

    The last part of the post you referred to was added – and untrue
    TSFM


  22. Joethebookie says:
    February 7, 2014 at 10:41 pm

    I watched about twenty minutes of tonight’s game
    ——————————————————————————————————————–
    That’s 20 minutes more than I did Joe.
    A joke decision by the BBC to show this ahead of much more interesting and more competitive ties, especially with Sevco’s known dislike of the broadcaster. Shameful really.
    Looking forward to tomorrow though; will catch the Celtic v Dons match on Sky before heading off to Station Park to watch the Loons play the Perth Saints!


  23. tcup 2012 says:
    February 7, 2014 at 7:49 pm

    Looks like TRFC have made some cuts at last

    On their grounds staff by the look of the pitch 🙂
    ______________________________________

    I noticed that.

    What a mess.


  24. Carntyne @ 11.06

    Will I set my alarm clock for ‘immediately’ 😆


  25. So
    He’s won out.

    Fair enough.

    Bye bye that selection of players.

    Cheerio McCoist and mates.

    Well done sir (I think)


  26. Jagsman says: February 7, 2014 at 8:16 pm
    ‘.Judging by the TV pictures, if it’s 40,000,..’
    ——–
    john clarke says: February 7, 2014 at 9:20 pm
    At the start of the game, the radio commentator’s estimate was c. 20 000-but of course the match was being televised
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    Willie Vass admits “Fairly low attendance at Ibrox this Friday evening” and provides photographic evidence for any deniers.

    http://willievass.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/070214-Rangers-v-Dunfermline-Athletic/G0000iF_fs9HjrWQ/I0000OyqYIQByCe0/C0000Lnj26DX67t0


  27. Carntyne says:
    February 7, 2014 at 11:06 pm

    Phil’s blog is still up and running.

    When does immediately not mean immediately?
    =====================================
    Lawyers, fine people though many of them are, need to know they will be paid for their services :mrgreen:


  28. Exiled Celt

    “Our pal CO was there too! ”

    Well according to Phil, there was a board meeting planned 😯


  29. thistleCA says:
    February 7, 2014 at 8:11 pm
    ======================

    Nice to see Cally Thistle fans giving our manager a mention but our ground is Firhill. Fir Park is Motherwell’s ground. But perhaps you have some info that he has shares in Fir Park?
    🙄
    Nevertheless point taken.


  30. I’m gonna continue to remove gloating, juvenile and irrelevant OT posts. This is not a forum for gloating at anyone. The past couple of days, and tonight in particular has become the most spiteful and partisan period this blog has witnessed (in my opinion).

    If people continue posting about how much their sides are splitting laughing at Rangers, or post opinion and conjecture as fact, I will remove their posting rights. You would think that posts being quietly removed would send a message that lines were being crossed, but that doesn’t seem to work with the unselfconscious in our number.

    Tonight has been ridiculous and embarrassing. RM or FF with different colours hijacked by people who have very little to offer by way of information or debate.

    Please let’s get back to facts. Actual facts – and opinion based on what we know.


  31. Exiled Celt says:
    February 7, 2014 at 5:50 pm
    ………………………………….

    This subject was covered back in the RTC days….when CW took the old club into admin…the season ticket money had already been eaten up and therefore the remaining games money became a liability.

    However under the circumstances D&P should have made the remaining games pay at the gate to raise income….from memory they didn’t which some may see as a positive gesture to honour the supporters…but their duty was to the creditors…

    So in todays situation I would imagine the ST money has already been drawn down and spent…will they continue to honour the supports remaining games?…I swaying towards they wont…I have a sneaky feeling it will be pay at the gate in line with a normal admin process in their duty to the creditors (spivs)


  32. Exiled Celt says: February 7, 2014 at 10:52 pm
    Our pal CO was there too!
    http://willievass.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/070214-Rangers-v-Dunfermline-Athletic/G0000iF_fs9HjrWQ/I00006IppYCHLBCI/C0000Lnj26DX67t0
    ======================
    This site does make you more cynical… 🙂

    Was CO just at Ibrox to watch the game?
    Or, did his attendance have anything to do with Wallace’s meeting – and the alleged threat to walk away?

    Is the – still heavily conflicted – SFA President now openly hands-on with the Govan club?

    Does anyone have any info. on the purpose of his Ibrox visit?


  33. StevieBC says:
    February 8, 2014 at 1:38 am
    ………………………………..

    It is an FA competition…he is entitled to be there…I would also expect to attend a game later today and on Sunday….after all he mustn’t show favouratism…. 🙄


  34. From the BBC’s match report

    Ref: Bobby Madden
    Att: 19,396

    With the crowd below 20k ,It’s just as well the board confirmed that it was Inaccurate to say the club are desperate for money and that the bills were all paid and up to date.


  35. Was chatting to an ibrox security guy tonight in a city centre pub … Says attendance was 16k


  36. Didn’t notice this yersterday but what a class put-down by Big Peter 😆

    Lawwell told Press Association Sport: “It’s the pre-eminent stadium in Scotland, it’s the biggest and the best. So if you want to have a bet on the biggest and the best, then you will always win.”

    Wonder why none of our SMSM didn’t question Ally a bit more closely on his wittering. Still got to get going – a lot of work to do if I’m going to see ra gemme.


  37. I would certainly hope the Ibrox stadium structure is in better nick than their football pitch, it’s a bog.

    That was pretty shocking to see the poor state of the pitch, is it REALLY up to the quality expected for a major cup semi final……….it also looks very narrow.


  38. I was looking again at the Rangers statement: – the first part of the opening sentence jumped out for me:

    “THE Club has received many calls in recent days from fans, shareholders…”
    http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/6273-club-statement

    If shareholders are asking questions, why then, no statement to the Stock Exchange?

    My assumption is that the Company would have to be very careful with a Stock Exchange statement, You cannot bluff the Exchange , can you?


  39. Paulmac2 – having paid for future games in advance, are season ticket holders not also creditors? Apologies if that’s a stupid question,


  40. StevieBC says:

    February 8, 2014 at 1:38 am

    Was CO just at Ibrox to watch the game?
    ————————

    CO is a football man so I have no problem with him attending football games, he is part of The SFA and should be seen at SFA games and he is a Rangers supporter so I see no issue with him attending any game at Ibrox.

    I have many concerns about the guy but I have no problem with him or indeed anyone, attending any game. I would go a step further and encourage all SFA employees interested in football to ensure they are seen at as many games as possible.


  41. Hi everyone,
    Genuine question. Regarding are TRFC good enough for the top league.

    I am a St Mirren supporer and baised on current form / quality of players would be interested to know what would happen if we got them in Scottish Cup.

    Thumbs up if you think St Mirren could win. Thumbs down if you think not ( I won’t be upset 😥 )

    Jusy want to guage opinion.


  42. Paulmac2 says:
    February 8, 2014 at 1:29 am
    7 0 Rate This

    Exiled Celt says:
    February 7, 2014 at 5:50 pm
    ………………………………….

    This subject was covered back in the RTC days….when CW took the old club into admin…the season ticket money had already been eaten up and therefore the remaining games money became a liability.

    However under the circumstances D&P should have made the remaining games pay at the gate to raise income….from memory they didn’t which some may see as a positive gesture to honour the supporters…but their duty was to the creditors…

    So in todays situation I would imagine the ST money has already been drawn down and spent…will they continue to honour the supports remaining games?…I swaying towards they wont…I have a sneaky feeling it will be pay at the gate in line with a normal admin process in their duty to the creditors (spivs)
    ——————————————————————————————————–
    Is it normal practice to cancel season tickets?
    BDO have honoured this season’s books (7000 from memory) sold to Hearts fans during 2012-13 despite these monies having long gone.


  43. On the pitch.

    Certainly you would have to query the wisdom of two semis presumably two days in a row on the one pitch. But then, any normal country would question the logic of that anyway! Although I did read somewhere that the pitch was being relaid, to do with the Commonwealth games?

    On the plus side my day has improved markedly. To misquote Eco I ‘hought ra gemme wiz ra morra!


  44. Darkmoon, you have to remember that it’s a one off cup tie, and wee teams often up their game for these, so The Rangers might be better than you’d think! 😉

    Seriously, I think that it is a one off, so you can’t legislate for everything. However, given the way that they’ve struggled to finish off even part-time teams (where it was probably their fitness that told in the end), and the fact that the only proper full time side they’ve played this season, Falkirk, played them off the park, then I would expect St Mirren to win. Put simply, they’re a better team than Falkirk, and in Stevie Thompson, they’ve got a quality forward, who will make mincemeat of that Gers defence – so expect Black to take him out the game early doors!

    The normal mentality amongst the press is that nothing has changed when it comes to Rangers. There’s a refusal to accept that 2 seasons playing against part-time teams would damage these players in anyway – contrast that with the oft repeated argument that the reason the Old Firm were so poor in Europe was the quality of opposition that they had to face on a weekly basis. Does that not translate to the lower leagues, then?

    However, this ‘truth’ about The Rangers seems to be crumbling ever so slightly. The most interesting aspect about Chico’s piece was the small but crucial implication that they’d want to avoid Aberdeen. That doesn’t sit easily with the accepted wisdom that T’Rangers are the 2nd best team in the country (or the best, if you’re really rabid) and just happen to be in the wrong division, does it?

    (Edit – I should have said ‘The closest to SPL standard’ side, rather than ‘proper fulltime’. I think my point about them playing part-time teams every week was laboured a bit too much!)


  45. darkmoon says:
    February 8, 2014 at 8:29 am
    Hi everyone,
    Genuine question. Regarding are TRFC good enough for the top league.
    I am a St Mirren supporer and baised on current form / quality of players would be interested to know what would happen if we got them in Scottish Cup.
    ———————————————-
    Don’t worry – you won’t. 😉
    (hmmm….wonder if I’ll come to regret this on Sunday 😀 )


  46. Long Time Lurker says:
    February 8, 2014 at 8:09 am
    I was looking again at the Rangers statement: – the first part of the opening sentence jumped out for me:
    “THE Club has received many calls in recent days from fans, shareholders…”
    —————————————————————————-
    Indeed – I’m having trouble imagining the institutional investors scouring the interweb checking for rumours as to Rangers financial stability (though it might not be a bad idea if they did 😀 )
    I suspect the statement should have read “…fans and fans who are shareholders…”
    As usual the bears went apoplectic – not primarily because of the allegations but because it was Phil.
    They were cracking up about the boards lack of response and then it appeared in the hootsmon…..
    Looks to me as though the board were bounced into this (especially the Easdales ❓ ) – wonder if they’ll come to regret responding – we shall see.


  47. Re How good are Rangers?

    From the benefit of my sofa when they played Falkirk, I could see that Rangers are a physically strong team and that they would at some point prevail as Falkirk ran out of steam. In terms of the quality of football , it was difficult to judge as both teams were very poor.

    Rangers defensively would struggle over a season in the SPL, Bell is a good goalkeeper and Wallace a competent left back ( prone to a rush to the brain against better players) , the right back Fauure (sp) looks poor and the two centre halves , Lee McC and Moshni are accidents waiting to happen at a higher level.

    In midfield, the aggression of Law and Black looks to let in the ball players , Peralta ( anonymous against Falkirk) and Aird ( ditto) , with the ball launched to the big lump , Daly with a willing runner either Clark, Templeton, or Sheils.

    Tactically , it seems to me up the left wing, Rangers play the third man running, in an attempt to get Wallace in and if that move is not on , then play played to the right back or Black to seek out Daly for a knock down to a runner.

    They strike you as a hard working team but with no real flair and against teams of similar fitness you would just flood the midfield , retain possession , leave the 2 big lumps at the back with virtually no one to mark and force them to pick up runners , and essentially attack down their right side , where they are very poor.

    Over a season , Rangers playing squad would be stretched , however by the wonder of Walternomics , they would someone get their hands on better players e.g. Gunning , so in my book over the season they would be fighting for 5 or 6 place but if they strengthened 3 or 4 , as most teams will come away from Ibrox with nothing.

    I believe that from the very limited viewing this season that Rangers are much better than last year, which was a shambles but all their problems are in central defence, so their future performance depends on improving that area.

    Finally, they do strike you as being limited tactically (Michael Stewart’s point) , however at their level of football , sometimes tactics doesn’t really come into it , in the same way as top flight level …. But they are very limited.

    St.Mirren versus Rangers would be a close game and I would go with home advantage in a cup tie.


  48. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ally-mccoist-watches-rangers-coast-3123562?
    “Rangers were forced to release a statement last night denying claims that the club was on the brink of a second administration.
    McCoist backed Graham Wallace’s sentiments and said: “I don’t read blogs or social network sites but I’ve been reassured by the chief executive that there is a lot of nonsense written. My understanding is that it’s all completely untrue.”
    And
    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/rangers-4-0-dunfermline-blues-cruise-to-cup-win-1-3298870ON
    “AN evening when they were moved to issue a statement denying claims of fresh turbulence in the boardroom, Rangers negotiated the smoothest of passages into the quarter-finals of the Scottish Cup.”

    Yep, nothing like a good denial to get a bad news story splattered all over the press.
    Wonder if Jack approved of last night’s statement?


  49. parttimearab says:
    February 8, 2014 at 9:51 am

    It will still be a big relief to the berrrzzzz, because “last time”, they only just managed to survive insolvency, and it was a close-run thing.


  50. I worked for a company who wnt into admin, mass layoffs, statutory minimum payout, 2 days notice period no 90/30 day notification (for which the administrators paid a paltry £5000 fine) , all contracts subjected to renegotiation (if we still needed you then we attempted to pay something, if we didn’t need you then yer bumped).

    So an ideal way to shed the staff & any contracts that are detrimental, it’s a psychological thing especially as its becoming a serial MO for rfc/trfc/arfc & always a risk you don’t actually emerge from admin falling towards the blender.


  51. I have to admit that I’ve been in despair over the semantic analysis of the Rangers statement, and I still do not think there is anything in the wording that suggests their sidestepping the issue. In fact nothing that happened yesterday made me doubt my own conviction that there will be no administration in the foreseeable future – until Ally’s comments.

    McCoist, in keeping with his ‘everyman’ political stance has emerged as the great equivocator.

    “My understanding is that it’s all completely untrue.”

    “My understanding”? That isn’t exactly being helpful to the board. Why not an unequivocal “what a load of crap”?

    Still don’t think that admin is a board plan, but I do think that McCoist is effectively operating as a fifth columnist on behalf of anti-board interests.

    Maybe the Rangers-men see administration as their big opportunity? I’m betting Ally won’t be the poster boy for the new ST campaign.


  52. I didn’t see any of the game last night on TV, but 4-0 sounds a convincing performance and The Rangers are in the next round. Depending on who gets through over the weekend,it’s clear that Mr McCoist’s pronouncement that he has a genuine top flight team will put be to the test, notwithstanding CO picking out the “square ball” 🙄

    I for one, am curious to see how his team would fare against a team from the top six of the SPFL. I have my doubts about the intensity required to beat part time teams with much smaller resources, but I have an open mind about this, as they have a team full of SPFL experienced players capable of raising their game for a one off cup tie.

    Providing Celtic win today, which will be extremely difficult against an in form Aberdeen team, I’d rather they did not get drawn against The Rangers for many reasons. The ensuing mayhem, the journalists’ wet dream, the increase in domestic violence, not to mention that Scottish Football has become a much saner place without that tiresome fixture, in my opinion.

    Additionally, I read John Hartson’s comments about NL staying for 10 in a row and as a Celtic supporter, I genuinely can’t think of anything more irrelevant. The only game in town is CL qualification, both financially and strategically. Who wins the league in a Northern outpost of European Football and for how many times is utterly insignificant. Does anybody know or care how many times in a row Rosenborg won the Norwegian League?

    The only time it mattered to them was when they reached the group stages(and further) of the CL.

    Unfortunately Mr Hartson and many, many others are wedded to a paradigm that(thankfully) no longer exists, but you can see them all, ex players, journalists etc salivating at the prospect of the two teams being drawn together in the Scottish Cup this season.

    I truly hope this doesn’t happen


  53. I have a suspicion you may be in the minority there, in the stands at least, if not in the FD’s office. That’s not to say you’re not right of course. The entire ‘old firm model’ and to be clear that’s not to denigrate the efforts of the two teams individually was never world domination as such, just as long as ‘you’ were doing slightly better than ‘them.’


  54. Flocculent Apoidea says:
    February 8, 2014 at 8:13 am

    Paulmac2 – having paid for future games in advance, are season ticket holders not also creditors? Apologies if that’s a stupid question
    ………………………………………………………………

    Indeed they would be….the Administrators do have a choice and as I say they chose to honour the remaining games to the ST holders…

    ulyanova says:
    February 8, 2014 at 8:57 am
    ………………………………………………

    Again indeed football is a strange business…when I say normal Admin process of course I am referring to an administrator retrieving or raising as much cash as possible reducing all avoidable costs and to work towards stabalising the financial problems of the Company to allow them out of Admin and avoid falling into liquidation.

    The fact BDO chose to honour the 7000 ST holders will I assume suggest all other aspects of the admin allowed them to do so….and was financially the more cost effective path…


  55. Listened to Clyde news and their comments on the statement this morning.I think our forensic guys on here will tidy this up for us by the end of the day,I have a picture in my mind of when the statement was being delivered Mr Wallace was leaning on the biggest shovel ever seen.


  56. TSFM
    I wouldn’t read as much into the Ally McCoist comment.
    He is simply attaching a caveat to something where he probably won’t have first hand and up to the minute knowledge. As a key employee whose expertise isn’t in finance or administration, it is wholly reasonable and to be expected.

    I don’t believe that an insolvency event was the plan either. The allegation that Laxey were pushing it makes sense given it had been others who had given categoric public assurances regarding insolvency. This brings you back to the points being made the other day about the controlling shareholders and the boardroom dynamic.

    “48 hours is a longtime in politics”


  57. Been idly totting up a list of the clubs I can remember being overtly or apparently supported by contributors on TSFM.

    Without wishing to name and shame anyone here’s what I’ve come up with.

    Celtic, Aberdeen, Motherwell, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Dundee United, St Johnstone,
    Hibernian, Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Ross County, Partick Thistle, Heart of Midlothian,
    Falkirk, Dundee, Hamilton Academical, Queen of the South, Raith Rovers, Alloa Athletic,
    Rangers (usual OCNC rules apply), Dunfermline Athletic, Forfar Athletic, East Fife, Arbroath,
    Clyde, Manchester City

    Not bad for a Timmy blog.

    Apologies to any clubs I’ve overlooked and any additions welcome.


  58. briggsbhoy says:
    February 8, 2014 at 10:45 am
    6 0 Rate This

    Re: Mr Wallace’s Statement

    ” The comments are damaging to the reputation of Rangers Football Club”
    —————————————————–
    I’m.led to believe that it’s not nice to talk ill of the departed . 😉 . Every employee of the reincarnation has a bit of trouble using the word ‘ the ‘ . You’d have thought there might even have been a meeting to explain to the employees , that a certain word is not to be used .


  59. Kicker Conspiracy
    Your list of teams is all very well but it would be more informative and illustrative if size and boldness of text reflected the amount of corresponding supporting posts or in typical Scottish football analysis, reflected the volume of negative waves towards each team.

    ps. Apparently the term for what I’m talking about is a ‘tag cloud’ and can be viewed on the Late Paul McConville blog, bottom of page on the right-hand side.
    http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/


  60. OK GJ thanks for joining in. 🙄

    Any ideas how to create 20 odd levels of text boldness within the confines of this format?

    Edit: Just saw your edit. Think I’ll leave it ta.


  61. GJ
    You mean like a Tag Cloud?

    Could do that if everyone added the team they supported to their profile. I will see if I can put that field in the profile page if we get enough TUs for this. Otherwise it might be too much work for too little benefit. It would be quite interesting.


  62. There I go opening cans of worms again.
    Put me down for Raith Rovers in tiny faint text. 😀


  63. Brenda says:
    February 7, 2014 at 11:19 pm

    Carntyne @ 11.06

    Will I set my alarm clock for ‘immediately’
    _________________________________

    Just read your post Brenda.

    It’s a bit late to give advice on setting your alarm clock, but if you’re still in bed get up straight away.

    The kick-off’s in less than an hour. 😉


  64. TSFM
    Rather than based solely on the team you support, the way PMcC had it set-up may be of more value.


  65. Kicker Conspiracy says:
    February 8, 2014 at 11:14 am
    ============================
    But the big question KC is: “Aye, but who’s your big team?”.
    A fairly innocuous and well worn fitba anecdote but it is the core issue in Scottishfgitba IMO. I’ve had it many times but I’m usually just a visitor. My son went to Glasgow Uni and stayed on after graduation in the city for 5-6 years. Being an active Dons fan (he had no choice!) and an amateur fitba’er he was asked this or a variation of every time the subject arose. It is endemic. Now I like Glasgow a lot, for example, my son had a great time there and I’m delighted to have been selected as a “Clydesider” for the CW, wouldn’t miss it for the world, but when it comes to fitba ………. I’m afraid it’s hillbilly valley. The CelticorRangers duopoly is driven by the public and supported by the MSM who pay lip service to the rest of us. It sustains the sectarian scam trotted out by the likes of Green (who learned it in weeks) and McCoist (who’s steeped in it). Long may TSFM at least generate some discussion on what happens in the real world.


  66. Bawsman says:
    February 8, 2014 at 7:52 am

    I would certainly hope the Ibrox stadium structure is in better nick than their football pitch, it’s a bog.

    That was pretty shocking to see the poor state of the pitch, is it REALLY up to the quality expected for a major cup semi final……….it also looks very narrow.
    ________________________________________________

    Graeme Souness freely admitted he ordered the sidelines to be adjusted to make the pitch narrower when facing better class teams in Europe.

    I can’t remember the reason he gave, but I assumed it was because it gave the opposition less room to play and easier to mark.

    Could Ally be using the same tactic?


  67. TSFM
    From a cursory glance, it seemed to reflect the ongoing popular content of the blog and served as a means to reference the names or terms listed.


  68. This link gives the playing pitch dimensions at Ibrox as at 2011 as
    115 x 78 yards

    http://www.footballgroundguide.com/scotland/rangers.htm

    It also has this splendid paragraph:

    “Jim Prentice informs me; ‘During the latter stages of Sir David Murray’s tenure as Chairman, plans to knock down the Govan, Broomloan Road and Copland Road stands and replace them with a bowl-type structure similar to Arsenal’s Emirates Stadium were made public, with the Bill Struth Main Stand to be refurbished (it cannot be demolished as it is a listed building). However, with the UK’s poor economic state and Rangers’ change of ownership, these plans were put on hold but may well be resurrected at some point in the future. If this were to happen, it is expected that the redevelopment could be completed within one year, with Rangers to play home matches at Hampden Park during this time’.


  69. whisperer says:
    February 8, 2014 at 6:14 am

    Was chatting to an ibrox security guy tonight in a city centre pub … Says attendance was 16k
    __________________________________________________________________________

    I’m not sure how many will turn up for Celtic v Aberdeen today.

    In days gone by it would have been a sell out, but that was before most of the attending fans had season tickets and had paid for every home league game.

    It’s becoming more obvious that paying for a season ticket for all home games and then having to fork out extra for cup games in addition has become too expensive for many.


  70. Greenock Jack says:
    February 8, 2014 at 11:56 am

    TSFM
    From a cursory glance, it seemed to reflect the ongoing popular content of the blog and served as a means to reference the names or terms listed.

    I think that is correct. If we wanted a tag cloud to be a fair representation of ‘supported team participation’ then I think you would need to base it on team supported and number of posts. I think it would be near impossible to have a cloud representing negative comments as these would be subject to analysing each comment.

Comments are closed.