A Guest Blog for TSFM by beatipacificiscotia
As a child I read a poem by John Godfrey Saxe, “The Blind Men and the Elephant”, and stumbled upon it again recently. It is a simple tale of how six blind men encounter an Elephant and attempt to describe the animal:
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!”
You get the idea. The other blind men did little better. The second grabbed the tusk and thought the elephant like a spear. Others thought the elephant like a snake (the trunk), a tree (the leg), a fan (the ear), and finally a rope (the tail). What does this have to do with this blog? Let me explain.
There is a danger of all of us, whether consciously or unconsciously, making the same mistake as these blind gentleman. It is too easy to use the parts of the argument that fit our values and belief system, at the expense of the whole truth. The 13th century Jaina scholar, Mallisena, described a much earlier version of the same tale as a parable to argue that people deny various aspects of truth; deluded by the aspects they do understand, they deny the aspects they don’t understand. He said:
“Due to extreme delusion produced on account of a partial viewpoint, the immature deny one aspect and try to establish another. This is the maxim of the blind (men) and the elephant.”
I am incapable of putting it any better than that, though I would go further. I argue that people are deluded by the aspects that they choose to understand, and deny the aspects that they refuse to understand. Which leads me to my tale …..
I have recently read a news report about a decision taken by the Advertising Standards Authority on advertising activities of The Rangers Football Club Ltd and their claims to history and honours. It includes the following quote referring to advice from the SFA:
“We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football ‘club’ varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner.”
I was most unhappy to read this part of the statement. I am yet to see the definition or statement of when you could “sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner”. This is a contradiction to the definition of a football club given by FIFA; a definition which is handed down to the Confederations, and from Confederations to Associations.
You may or may not be aware, the application of good governance in football is administered through club licensing. This annual process ensures that minimum standards are maintained, to promote growth and development, and ultimately protects all of football – every club, every player and staff member, the integrity of every competition, suppliers of goods and services, the reputation of sponsors, and most of all the fans. FIFA Club Licensing Regulations state that a license applicant must be a football club, defined as:
“Legal entity fully and solely responsible for the football team participating in national and international club competitions that applies for a licence.”
This is a clear and unambiguous definition, which is being ignored by the SFA. Why is this issue so important? Simply, a football club must be held responsible for its commercial activities. For example, an over-ambitious and over-spending Rangers changed the Scottish football landscape forever. Other clubs tried to compete in an unsustainable “Cold War”-like football arms race. I believe Scottish football was damaged. Many clubs have been taken to the brink of death. This could happen in any country, in any league, anywhere in the world. For that reason, a football club and its corporate body must be one and the same, living or dying, inseparably intertwined. The separation of club and company is a myth, a myth dangerous to good governance. Rangers (1872-2012) should be a cautionary tale told to every club owner.
There are many benefits to club licensing. These including minimum standards for stadia and infrastructure, youth development programs, and much more. I would heartily recommend that you read the FIFA document if you have the time. It gave birth to the word and spirit of Financial Fair Play. Look at some of the financial benefits detailed:
10.3 Benefits
Implementation of the financial criteria will help deliver both short and long-term improvements for clubs, the licensors and the football family in general. For the football family in general, the financial criteria should help to:
• safeguard the continuity and integrity of competitions;
• increase the transparency and credibility of clubs’ financial operations;
• improve confidence in the probity of the football industry;
• create a more attractive market for the game’s commercial partners and investors; and
• provide the basis for fair competition, because competition is not just about the teams on the pitch.
For the licensors, the financial criteria should help to:
• improve their understanding of the financial position and prospects of their member clubs;
• encourage clubs to settle liabilities to creditors on a timely basis;
• enhance transparency in the money flow of clubs;
• enhance their ability to be proactive in assisting clubs with financial issues; and
• provide a starting point for club benchmarking at a national level for those licensors and clubs who want to develop this aspect.
For the clubs, the financial criteria should help to:
• improve the standards and quality of financial management and planning activities;
• enable better management decision-making;
• enhance clubs’ financial and business credibility with stakeholders;
• improve financial stability; and
• enhance revenue-generating ability and cost management.
Important words, and I trust the value and opportunity these regulations offer are now clear. Note bullet points 3 and 4, and that our top league currently does not have a sponsor. The SFA must ensure the integrity of competitions, discourage financial recklessness, and protect football for everyone. This is only possible with a clear, unambiguous statement that confirms club / company are one and the same thing.
To suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation is to undermine the definition of what is a football club, one of the cornerstones of FIFA Club Licensing Regulations. For the SFA to suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation, or allow this belief to go unchallenged, is a shameful dereliction of duty. It puts all of football in danger. We cannot allow this. There is too much at stake.
The poem ends thus:
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
The blind men were each partially right, though in their vanity / stubbornness / ignorance they failed to find the truth. There is a lesson for us all in this story. This may appear to be an attempt to renew the old club / new club debate. It is not. To see this as an opportunity to score points against Rangers fans is to completely miss the point – you have failed to find the truth.
This is global issue affecting one of the fundamentals of good governance. Good governance must be the beating heart of our game – ensuring good health and long life. I am looking at the here and now, and ahead into the future.
We must protect and promote ALL of the FIFA Club Licensing Regulations. To deny any part is to refuse to see the whole elephant, like the foolish blind men.
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GJ – interesting post.
TSFM – well done and look forward to the podcast.
After reading all the valuable posts by BP and Auldheid over the last couple of years…just hope they don’t sound like Hugh Keevins – or even James Sanderson! (Only joking 😉 )
When is the TSFM TV channel launch then… ? 🙂
justshatered on February 8, 2014 at 9:28 pm
85 1 Rate This
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Great post. Oh how I agree.
Team for team, across the four leagues, it would interesting to see which country had the healthier financial status. It’s not a Scotland v England thing, I do hear a lot of English fans on the BBC 5 phone-ins expressing disillusionment at the astronomical sums paid to players while they, the fans, live in working-class financial reality.
Btw, a later caller to 5 Live yesterday also pointed out to the hosts that Celtic got £2m for their league triumph while those coming last in the EPL got £50m. In spite of this, how many EPL clubs have horrendous debt — while DU & Celtic have just posted sensible economic reports this past week?
If Scottish football is to be broadcast in Asia, perhaps it could even develop a cult following for being ‘authentic’. I think we sell ourselves short. From a foreign perspective there could be more pre-match atmospherics, whether it be pipe bands and/or decent pre-match stuff (BBC Alba) have been good at this. If the ‘Yes’ vote wins there will be a unique opportunity to promote Scotland and its ‘football for real men’.
Danish Pastry says:
February 9, 2014 at 7:26 am
If the ‘Yes’ vote wins there will be a unique opportunity to promote Scotland and its ‘football for real men’.
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…and women, Danish! But take your point, an ‘authentic’ game would require much more clarity regarding rules and their interpretations, and the ‘Rangers’ question to be finally sorted out. The English game is developing some very serious problems, and as Scottish football can’t compete financially, an attempt to give it a positive ‘real football’ reworking sounds like it might have some potential. I suspect that Regan and Doncaster would not be the people to sell such a positive message, however
At the legendary Recreation Stadium, Alloa, yesterday afternoon, I would have to say that discussion of Paul Hartley centred on his desire for full time football rather than any conspiracy theories, and that we’re pleased the new chap has such an obvious pedigree. Although, Clackmannan Road is the permanent address of wait-and-see. Other topics included cup final venues (show respect for AFC and ICT fans, they may like wifi, roofing, and maintenance), and the fact that we all had Sevco supporting friends with competing levels of incomprehension.
Did I mention the football? No? Probably just as well.
On a personal level a very disappointing result but a great display from Aberdeen. Barry Robson was outstanding.
I work beside two Aberdonians and my best mate is an Albion fan. As they say in the north east, I may remain “beddit” for the next week.
Long live Armageddon
justshatered says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:28 pm
Scottish football is flawed. We have been betrayed by our administrators and deserve better governance.
We have been left behind by the TV coverage and the sums paid to teams despite the amount of Scottish subscribers to SKY.
We have few, regardless of what the papers tell us, billionaire owners. Most clubs are still true to their local roots and fan base but that comes at a cost. It means that we will never again challenge at the top table of European football and possibly fail to qualify for most national team tournaments but at least we will be true to ourselves.
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Thank you Justshattered.
Having lived in Englandshire for more than the last 30 years, I have watched the English game, nurtured by Murdoch’s Money and foreign “hot” money, devour itself in a frenzy of bloated self-praise. I do not subscribe to any sports channels but can watch more than I need to, if I really want.
However, for the third week on the trot, I have managed to sit in front of the telly on a Saturday evening and not see a scrap of EPL football…and do not miss it a jot. It has ruined English Football as a sport, stolen clubs away from their supporters, and is now a busted flush.
As an example of the rot, Mr Gary Lineker is reputed to earn some £2 million for fronting the TV highlights and an inane talking shop on Saturday evening….FFS…taxpayers money at that! Mr McCoist must really eye up that one!
Danish Pastry says:
February 9, 2014 at 7:26 am
If Scottish football is to be broadcast in Asia, perhaps it could even develop a cult following for being ‘authentic’. I think we sell ourselves short. From a foreign perspective there could be more pre-match atmospherics, whether it be pipe bands and/or decent pre-match stuff (BBC Alba) have been good at this. If the ‘Yes’ vote wins there will be a unique opportunity to promote Scotland and its ‘football for real men’.
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Hi Danish, Before I start, can I just say I loved your Goalposts blog, excellent stuff.
I lived in Singapore until a few years ago, for a country with a fairly large Scottish contingent and a St Andrews society, not one pub in the entire place would show Scottish Football. I even offered to pay in one pub, but was told it wasn’t worth adding it to their subscription. I paid the extra at home though, the giddy sum of $2 Singapore dollars a month, about 70p back in the day. A pub subscription was an additional £17 a month, but even the pubs on the ‘celtic bars’ website wouldn’t pay it.
The channel was Goals TV if I recall correctly and you even got the Dutch league included. This whilst the locals salivated over the EPL and wondered why I wasn’t bothered with English Football.
To be honest, without huge changes, I don’t see much overseas appeal.
I have never heard the term “controlled administration” before this week. I wonder what it is meant to mean. It has no meaning in law. Who first coined it? Anyone know?
Accies: I do business in Asia and havr watched a number of celtic games over the years in singapore in the company of the SingTims. There was also a very definitely Rangers bar (Sportsmans Bar?sic) which had a picture if Donald Findlay of the wall, I kid you not… I executed a swift reverse ferret on that one I tell you!
Also watched Celtic games.with the ThaiTims, HK, even.Tokyo.
Just saying there is some demand overseas but its 90% ex-pat.
Campbellsmoney says:
February 9, 2014 at 9:22 am
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Probably a pre pack which the MBB was planning for RFC until pesky Hector got in the way. Bradford Bulls (Rugby League) went into Admin last week I think and were out almost imediately because a CVA was agreed same day. Who coined it maybe it was Duff and Phelps or whatever the British arm were called before the buy out because they definitely worked with MBB on one if CFakes is to be believed
Summer football, why the hell not?
The spectre of summer football rears it’s head every so often, I was swayed totally a couple of years ago when a seed was planted by a caller to Your Call with Jim Traynor, whatever happened to that guy, anyone know?
The callers argument was that if we were playing in summer we could attract some EPL players seeking matches, even for short loan deals, the crowds would increase as people would want to see these loan players.
Well the more I thought on this it became evident that if there were loan players from clubs down south, or even European teams, the fans from the players parent club would want to tune in and watch their player to see how he was doing. Add this to the fact that the fans of the parent clubs have nowhere to go on a Saturday for a couple of months, maybe they could meet their mate for a couple of beers in the local. We suddenly have a product we can sell into pubs outwith Scotland on a Saturday afternoon. Besides how many of us have just walked into a pub and watched a game from another country, just because it is on?
The second part of my argument comes in the straight forward form of common sense, who would rather go out in the pouring rain, wind blowing a hoully, temperatures at or below zero, travelling in the dark, on a miserable day in January. Or take a leisurely stroll with the kids, a short sleeved shirt on, soaking up the rays on a sunny afternoon in July? A lovely day to take the kids out, introducing the next generation of supporters.
Thirdly, better pitches and weather conditions we are automatically going to see better football with the more skilful players coming to the fore.
So in summary a more marketable product, bigger crowds, better matches, could I suggest we may even be able to attract more sponsorship with this model? Money that could be used in grass roots development?
As for the national team, if we are lucky enough to qualify for a tournament, the players picked go, it is Scotland we are talking about, they will only be away for a week. It happens in the African and Asian cups, it happens in the Scottish Rugby team.
jockybhoy says:
February 9, 2014 at 9:44 am
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SingTims is gone in all but name Jocky, they used to meet at Molly’s but they stopped showing the games years ago, that was one of the pubs I tried to get showing the games again, but they were not interested.
The Sportsmans on Orchard road, I visited once as Scotland were playing that night, and I popped in to enquire if they were showing the game. One small beer and never again, they have a shrine to RFC (now deceased) in one corner and a shrine to the Royal Family in the other. Harry I think was the guy that owned it. I don’t know if he is still around, wasn’t too well last I heard.
Campbellsmoney says:
February 9, 2014 at 9:22 am
I used the term on here recently, although I’m sure I wasn’t the first. What I meant by it was something like an administrative receivership, where one large secured creditor basically takes control via a receiver. However it’s at least 10 years since I was involved in UK insolvency work, so I don’t even know if that process still exists.
That sort of process would require RIFC to have some security over the assets, however, and no such charges are in the public domain. Could RIFC have a floating charge over the assets of TRFC? Would that have to be registered to be valid in Scotland?
Campbellsmoney says:
February 9, 2014 at 9:22 am
&&&&&&
The same person coined:
‘brought out of liquidation’
‘bought the club’s history’,
‘Successful share issue’
‘500 000 000 fans’
‘No dealings with Craig Whyte’
Does anyone know when The Rangers have to shell out half the gate money for the Scottish Cup tie to Dunfermline? Surely the gate takings are already known and the cheque posted. I’d want to cash that cheque soon. With Internet banking the funds should be transferred already. Why should Dunfermline be a creditor when [IF] it goes belly up next week.
neepheid says:
February 9, 2014 at 10:04 am
££££££
Apologies, I was attempting to highlight the parallel universe occupied by sevcovians. I took the term to be similar to stripping down a ship, employing a skeleton crew, running it aground, claiming the insurance and selling the hulk for salvage/scrap.
Just about to lay off most of the crew on the SS Sevco.
I’m wondering if it was a TSFM convention at Cliftonhill yesterday, because I also went along. The last time I was there(many years ago) there was a sub-200 crowd, and the place was literally falling down – we went to stand on the uncovered terracing behind the goal, and a steward came running across to tell us that the area was unsafe and we would have to move!
Yesterday was a bit different. The place still looks a bit tatty, but what had changed was the atmosphere. Last time it felt like a Sunday morning at the edge of the world. This time around it felt incredibly vibrant. Rovers have vociferous support, and even allowing for the fact it was a cup match and possibly the crowd had one-offers just there for that reason( like myself) what struck me was how many youngsters were in the crowd.
In years gone by, I would have thought that most of them would have claimed to have been Old Firm fans, and wouldn’t have been seen dead at Cliftonhill – not because of some glory hunting crusade, although there would always be an element of that, but because of peer pressure and the desire to fit in. The demise of Rangers, and therefore the pressure to be ‘one or the other’ has created the space to allow youngsters to go and experience their local sides, and that can only be a good thing, although you won’t read about it in our national press.
Also, a mention must go to the Stenny fans, as a fair number of them had turned out as well.
Having said that, it wasn’t all syrupy optimism on show. The standard of football was generally appalling. I think I’m just so used to The Bully Wee struggling to pass a ball 10 yards in a straight line, that I tend to think just in terms of it just being us, but being a relative neutral yesterday, I could stand back and appreciate how widespread it is in the lower leagues – check Rover’s first yesterday on the i-player, it’s probably the lamest own goal you’ll see in your life.
Coaching at the lower levels does need to improve, but what was more alarming was that this is the general standard of footballer that TRFC have at times struggled to overcome with any degree of competency. It goes back to the point of how can their players careers not have been damaged by playing against that sort of standard on a regular basis. Yes, it’s made them a bit richer, but at what long term cost?
Fisiani says: February 9, 2014 at 10:18 am
Does anyone know when The Rangers have to shell out half the gate money for the Scottish Cup tie to Dunfermline? Surely the gate takings are already known and the cheque posted. I’d want to cash that cheque soon. With Internet banking the funds should be transferred already.
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Should already have received it on the day of the game.
There is also a 5% levy to go to the SFA within 3 days.
The home club is entitled to retain 20% of the receipts to cover expenses.
I hope PMG enjoyed his weekend away but I can’t wait till he gets back 😉
Fisiani @ 10.18 am
Surely Dunfermline have been paid?? But then again has the VAT bill been paid or the leccy or the stewards or the emergency services oh dear this list could take a while 😥
easyJambo
Will Celtic FC get 20% for hosting the final ( plus any other costs incurred ) with each of the finalists receiving 40% each??
Call me cynical….but the draw for the quarters….what odds on Aberdeen…DUTD/ST.Mirren paired together?
Paulmac2 says:
February 9, 2014 at 10:37 am
£££££££
Pretty much depends on how warm Campbell’s balls are.
Brenda says:
February 9, 2014 at 10:35 am
easyJambo
Will Celtic FC get 20% for hosting the final ( plus any other costs incurred ) with each of the finalists receiving 40% each??
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As I understand it the stadium is being rented…therefore it will be a straight fee….with operating costs such as stewarding…Police etc being met by the SFA…any repair costs should there be any will I imagine be paid by Celtic and reimbursed by the SFA..
The same would apply to the other stadiums being used…
Brenda says: February 9, 2014 at 10:35 am
easyJambo
Will Celtic FC get 20% for hosting the final ( plus any other costs incurred ) with each of the finalists receiving 40% each??
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The rental fee for semis and the final is determined by the SFA Board
The SFA also retain 10% for these games, before the split between the competing clubs
Re controlled administration.
There is just no such concept. It is made up. An administration is controllled by an administrator – no one else. The administrator owes duties to all creditors – not just the floating charge creditor (as was the case with receiverships).
Any floating charge has to be registered – and is therefore in the public domain – within 21 days of being granted. Any floating charge granted in respect of pre-existing debt is ineffective in securing that debt if an insolvency event happens within 1 year (or 2 years if the charge is granted to a connected party – such as a holding company).
My feeling is that the term has been invented in order to create the impression that somehow this type of administration is different to what you see at DFC, DAFC,HMFC, HMV, Woolworths etc. It isn’t and it won’t be. To give the idea that it is a lesser form of admin process and that no one need worry too much – its all under “control”. Utter nonsense of course.
It might refer to a pre-pack. The SPFL Rules now allow business transfers in a way that the older rules did not. But it might not so refer. That’s the problem with made up terms and ignorant listeners. You make up a term and the listener (the media) don’t know enough to question the term. Woofers and tweeters.
If TRFC were my problem to solve for the benefit of creditors, I would pre-pack it before the end of the season (having told my namesake what I am up to). Thankfully its not my problem. Because that solution is not (in my view) for the benefit of Scottish Football. But administrators should only care about the creditors.
acciesbhoy says:
February 9, 2014 at 10:00 am
I’ve been in a couple of times over the years ,and to be honest Its always been a good laugh .There is, I grant you, some interesting memorabilia on the wall, including, If my memory serves me correctly ,an old Graeme Souness passport and a Celtic top signed by the Lisbon Lions .Interesting decor aside , I always found the customers very welcoming .
As for football fans in S E Asia ,they are making the same mistake as we are ,namely heavily subsidising other nations football at the expense of their own .
I would also add Brenda…the rental fee would also form part of the SFA costs in their calculations towards a divi up of the proceeds to each club…
Campbellsmoney says:
February 9, 2014 at 10:47 am
&&&&&&&&&
That’s the problem with made up terms and ignorant listeners. You make up a term and the listener (the media) don’t know enough to question the term. Woofers and tweeters.
&&&&&&&&&&&&
Says it all re: MSM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXDK3x5lAYI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Campbellsmoney says:
February 9, 2014 at 10:47 am
” An administration is controllled by an administrator – no one else.”
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“Sources tell me that Laxey’s are pushing for a controlled insolvency and that the Easdales have come round to their way of thinking on that matter.”
5th sentence.
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/big-day-at-ibrox/#more-4373
davythelotion says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:42 pm
Carntyne says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:10 pm
££££££
Apologies for misreading! I was actually responding to smugas. I can only blame the drink and the shuffled Spotify for distracting me.
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No apology necessary Davie, we’re in agreement… 😀 😀
Acciesbhoy. Sorry to hear the Singtims have melted away. Was mollys the one quite far out by a bunch condos? Being hard to find doesnt help the passing trade such as me…
Oh yeah, the HMtQ shrine. I glimpsed that too!Given how er “traditional” Sportsmans was I wonder if its TUPE’d over…
nawlite says:
February 8, 2014 at 10:39 pm
32 3 Rate This
I know I don’t know the full story, but was surprised not to see any comment on Paul Hartley taking up the Dundee job. No axe to grind with Hartley, Dundee or anyone, but did his leaving Alloa then very quickly taking over at Dens feel right to everyone on here?
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Both Hartley and Dundee have emphatically denied there has been any collusion.
I suppose because Scottish football is high profile there was bound to be speculation.
However, in any other occupation most of us would not think twice about leaving our job and accepting the offer of a better well paid job.
Football seems to be regarded in a different light.
We accuse players of having no loyalty when they refuse to sign a new contract, yet we have no hesitation about suggesting they should be got rid of if they aren’t to our liking.
It’s a funny old game…
jockybhoy says:
February 9, 2014 at 11:10 am
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No Jocky, Molly Malones was boat quay, it moved to new premises just across the road, not 50 yards from where it used to be. I’ll never understand the rationale for not showing the Scottish Football. They used to pack out the place when the GAA was on, and show it in the back room on a web link.
You reminded me of a rangers pub that I did drink in in Singapore. There were frescos of the regulars wearing rangers shirts, painted directly on the wall. It was well out of town near the Science Park. One lone Ranger lived close by and had converted all the locals to Rangers supporters. Not a hint of any nonsense as seen in the Sportsmans, just an honest local with people supporting their team. I never did meet the lad, we kept missing each other but heard lots about him, he sounded a good un.
I think summer football is long overdue. Certainly for those visiting Ice Station Broadwood every other week. Why should we dress for a polar expedition just watch a football match?
Some have commented on the state of the Ibrox pitch. I expect someone will spin that as being down to the frequency of part-time professionals running around on it these days resulting in it not being treated with the same respect.
Shooperb – if it’s lame own goals you want, have you forgotten Dusan Bestvina?
http://youtu.be/-6m0AsKeSs0
Watch from 1.30. Alloa fans needing a cheer-up, don’t watch beyond that.
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If we get Sevco in the next round I’m looking forward to belting out the following
“Ally Ally you’re rather overweight”
“In your rather less well off areas of Glasgow”
Etc etc
When is the draw??
I thought the term ” Controlled Administration ” was a clever sound byte inserted into the New Lexicon as a contender for Euphemism of the Year too. After all, the “Controlled” bit tends to mitigate the “Administration” bit.
However the first reference to it on here was 19th May last year by Chipm0nk
It raised its head again via PhilMacGiollaBhain on 11 Dec 2013
then Smugas on 10 Jan
and then Exiled Celt on 7 Feb
Just kinda crept in then?
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TBrenda says:
February 9, 2014 at 11:37 am
0 0 Rate This
When is the draw??
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After today Dundee United v St Mirren game
No need for your clock 😆
Greenock Jack says:
February 9, 2014 at 11:45 am
0 0 Rate This
It’ll be ironic if after beating the SPFL leaders at Parkhead, you then can’t handle the pressure of being favourites and lose at Ibrox.
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A thought I don’t even want to contemplate 😈
Apparently Leeds have been losing £1m per month because they have been overpaying players, without the funds in place to fulfill their salaries. Where has that been suggested before?
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554848/Leeds-United-Could-things-worse-Massimo-Cellino-faces-meltdown.html
Ok, I’m going to try and pull together three strains of thought here, of current discussion , might work, might not.
Strains are: GJ’s of 2.11am last night on spun led mass following, Shooperb’s of 10.28 that touched on the next generation and my own line yesterday on complacency that crashed and burned.
I’ll start firstly at Regan and his armageddon theory of 2 years ago. I was and remain firmly of the belief that this statement proved what we all knew, that the upper echelons in authority simply could not imagine a footballing landscape without the old firm, without direct competition between the old firm. It was not made with any reference to any clubs outwith one, and arguably two. There was possibly a nod to the Killies of this world ‘needing’ 4 home crowds a season but I would consider that a by product, not a direct consequence of the SFA’s actions.
Fast forward to yesterday. I suggested (ok more than suggested, apologies again Carntyne) yesterday that a complacency had set in at Celtic Park. I’ll maybe change the word but firstly, this is NOT a reflection on Celtic’s financial model which has been carried extensively on here and which most other clubs would give both their proverbials for. FOOTBALL wise, it occurred to me that the Celtic board had almost settled for what I will now call adequacy. Griffiths (fine player though he is) was the headline signing hence my picking on him, unfairly on a personal level here. From a celtic (Champions League and all) perspective I would not describe Griffiths as an inspirational signing, he was an adequate signing. I mentioned the Celtic board there simply because – and I can only go on my TV viewing yesterday for the cup tie – the celtic fans seemed to realise about 20 minutes in, certainly before the equaliser, when the defence became over elaborate and tried some risky stuff that wasn’t coming off. They clearly realised that adequate wasn’t going to be enough.
My point though is nothing to do with Celtic per se other than use it as an example. A poster (Davy?) suggested that the true core support of Celtic was probably what was there yesterday 25-30k. GJ mooted yesterday that DUtd’s core support (doing well) was around the 10k mark which history would support and Aberdeen’s maybe 12,500 – 15,000 tops. Certainly it is well publicised that one of the main seeds to Ferguson leaving that 80’s dons team was the ECWC semi(?) at Pittodrie in 1984 – when the ground didn’t sell out. I’ll leave GJ and others to debate what the RFC core support was/is under normalised conditions but I always find the safe option is to assume the same as ‘theirs.’
So, we have core supports. Some bigger, some smaller. Now back to Regan’s armageddon. As a diddy I never had concerns about armageddon as such. Said as it was with a narrow Glasgow south perspective it made no allowance for teams filling the gap. 40 years of footballing viewing told me that Celtic would slip into adequate, not inspirational.
Key point. Whether the sevco gap was to be temporary or permanent is by the by (I may be offering Regan too much credit here but I oft wonder if his armageddon comment was actually based towards RFC themselves along the lines much proffered on here – if you continue to do what you’ve always done then it clearly doesnae work!) The point is there was always going to be a gap, temporary or permanent. A nod here as well to the decent hunch that there wasn’t even supposed to be a gap but I digress!
So, my point, eventually. Faced with said gap what have the authorities (and I include the senior clubs in this) done in the last two years with a specific focus on addressing the core supports of the various teams. How does a club increase their profile? Not for a second did I expect 40,000 per week to go elsewhere but 10-15,000 could easily have headed for the EPL (thus leaving the core). Could they have been added to the core supports elsewhere? As GJ says unlikely in this generation but next? Possibly. And I’m not convinced the clubs need to raid the Ibrox (or Celtic’s) support in any case. Clubs like Aberdeen especially in a one club city should have a large enough population to go after as it is (although I’m not forgetting Angus’ fleets of mini-busses either).
Is the key focus of the game at present to generate interest for the future? Or is it, currently, a determination to recreate an unhealthy duopoly, on the basis of competition (on the theory that then the fans will come), to the ignorance, at best, and actual detriment of the other clubs at worst. Show me a model that supports this view as being financially the best way forward, never mind anything else.
Vibrant football covering the whole of the country, or old firm flagships?
Or am I a piece of white cream filled confectionary?
@essexbeancounter
So Gary Lineker gets more from the publicly funded broadcaster for fronting a Saturday football highlights show than the champions of Scotland get for winning their domestic league title.
That’s truly shocking when you think about it. Our game deserves better in so many ways. Better governance and much better marketing would be a good start.
Just a wee thought 😀 would the confusion over the ownership of ibrox be the reason why the sfa chose PARKHEAD ( a stadium in a perfect state of repair ) to host both cup finals 😉
Interesting (if slight) article on the BBC website on major population centres without professional clubs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-26067494
If we exclude East Kilbride which is now represented in the lowland league, my rough calculation gives 23 towns and cities with populations over15k having no teams in the professional leagues or with eventual access (assuming the pyramid system from the lowland/highland leagues is eventually given the go ahead).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_cities_in_Scotland_by_population
Does professional football in Scotland need further reconstruction?
Greenock Jack says:
February 9, 2014 at 11:29 am
3 2 Rate This
helpmaboab
I presume you refer to the ‘Lennon, Lennon GTF’ chants.
Here you would have to go down the road of a proposal to outlaw all such abusive chants from sports stadia. The referee could no longer be called names etc., etc. The customary football part abuse, part banter would have to go.
The atmosphere would be further sterilized which would be bring some benefits and further encourage a change in the supporter demographic (questionable take-up) but it would also bring negatives to how many of the existing demographic view their matchday experience.
Actively looking to cut down on freedoms in society is a bad idea because not only would they never come back but the authorities would take advantage and go further within what might be regarded as a general purge in recent years.
IMO too much energy (that often comes from disproportionate column inches) is chanelled into these matters when there are other far greater issues that merit more attention. Issues that go beyond football and concern the safeguarding of freedoms rather than a seeming rush to ban them.
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I don’t imagine Neil Lennon has a problem with football related chants, even when directed at him. That is part and parcel. And I’m sure that goes for everyone. Unfortunately Neil has had to deal with other parts and other parcels.
It’s a real shame that people can’t restrict themselves to the sort of humorous and inventive chanting that you refer to and leave all of the other stuff out. The atmosphere at some games would be immeasurably improved by the avoidance of all of the non-football related bitterness that we so often see.
Carntyne says:
February 9, 2014 at 11:19 am
However, in any other occupation most of us would not think twice about leaving our job and accepting the offer of a better well paid job.
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Absolutely agree, Carntyne. What piqued my interest was that he resigned without the offer of a better job, at least until a few weeks later. Would you do that? In normal circumstances I wouldn’t.
Anyway, ResinLabDog’s explanation that he took a risk to put himself in the ‘available’ shop window is feasible, so not an issue now.
With regards to some of the population stuff above.
A majority of Dons season ticket holders come from the shire rather than the city(the shire having a pop of over 200k)
Our support is pretty poor really regardless of Angus’s fleet of buses.
acciesbhoy on February 9, 2014 at 9:17 am
… To be honest, without huge changes, I don’t see much overseas appeal.
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Indeed acciesbhoy. And there are numerous changes suggested by posters here and elsewhere that could be implemented that would make the spectacle more appealing. The for ‘real men’ was more a reference to that fact those playing don’t get play stopped every 30 seconds with Spanish-style play-acting. (The Calum character in ‘All Creatures Great and Small’ once tried to introduce Tristan and the others to ‘Dancing for real men.’ 🙂 Cracking line.)
A big plus for Scottish football, as far as the punter is concerned, is the honesty of the on-field contest (therefore the severe scunneration caused by ND, SR, CO, and the Sevco Capers). From what I see, there is not much of the ‘Big Jessie’-theatrical-diving-type of player.
One of the changes that is really necessary is to get away from the 4 x season drudgery. It’s bad for fans and players. The 2 x season H/A fixture programme preserves a freshness, and is more unpredictable. Because of less familiarity, there is a more cup-like situation for lower-ranked teams, and a bigger potential banana skin for the big boys. Plus the bigger league would restore the Falkirks, Raiths, Dundees and others to the top league on a more permanent basis. Instituting a 3-up/3-down system would also allow other teams to reach the big time.
I don’t think we should underestimate the negative effects on players and teams who, no matter how bad they are, remain in the top league. Little incentive for improvement, little reward for seeking to excel. Complacency as mentioned above.
Tartanwulver on February 9, 2014 at 8:09 am
15 0 Rate This
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You are, of course, correct @Tartan, although the context was the players being ‘real men’ and not your injury-feigning softies. My post didn’t make that very obvious. Sorry.
Smugas, some interesting points but one bit that grates with me slightly is the discussion around the health of the game in Scotland following the great admin/liquidation event as if it was the cause. To me it was the obvious decrease in said health that led to our biggest, or second biggest but by a huge way in any event, club going into admin then being liquidated. I see that as evidence of the decline in our fitba fortunes rather than the cause of it. Of course, the old Rangers brought it on themselves with their Walternomics but that’s the case in any business, those with the weakest financial model are the first to go. I found it funny when the Dunfermline and Hertz events were touted as evidence of the fate of the Scottish game sans the queens XI.
No, decreasing crowds and the widening gap in the European competitions has been the story for some time now. There may be more casualties but I hope it has bottomed out, I think it may have.
(btw Aberdeen”s core support is about 8,000 (Season tickets sold) and if we are on a roll we might average 13,000 over the season IMO. Much the same as we did in the 80’s.
Also, next time the opposition sings “You’re not famous anymore” or “Sheep shagging bas**rds” at Pittodrie I’m penning a strong letter of complaint to the papers.)
Apologies for continuing an OT thread but I was in the Sportsman’s in November with an expat mate who always calls it “the Thistle Bar” because of the signed Thistle shirt that was in a prominent position above the bar (alongside various other mainly Scottish footie shirts). I got chatting to the owner (a Singaporean) and asked her how she had come to have all this stuff and she told me she had inherited everything from the previous owner. I didn’t notice any Rangers or Celtic stuff on the walls, although I did notice the photo of Her Maj in the corner. In another corner there was a big stack of spare stuff so I think she is having a clear out. Will be back in Singapore in a couple of weeks so will drop in and castigate her if she’s got rid of the Thistle shirt.
‘Something tells me that in May, Rangers will lift the SC at Parkhead.
It would be another one of football’s delicious ironies.’
Quickly followed by the realisation that you would not be able to represent your country in the Europa League
Flocculent Apoidea says:
February 9, 2014 at 11:28 am
4 0 Rate This
I think summer football is long overdue. Certainly for those visiting Ice Station Broadwood every other week. Why should we dress for a polar expedition just watch a football match?
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With our weather that seems sensible.
But in which months would the season be played?
If the season ends before winter then teams playing in European competition would be badly affected.
Danish Pastry says:
February 9, 2014 at 1:52 pm
You are, of course, correct @Tartan, although the context was the players being ‘real men’ and not your injury-feigning softies. My post didn’t make that very obvious. Sorry.
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I understand that, residing as you do in one of them enlightened Scandinavian countries, it would have been implicit in what you said anyway!
I was considering your wider point during the day, and thinking that even if the foreign broadcast market is initially just expats, surely some kind of streaming internet facility could be used to market the ‘revised’ Scottish game directly to those that want it, rather than just as a sad adjunct to a EPL/La Liga/etc TV subscription. It would be a worthy aim in itself just to try to get the Scottish game into a fit state for the current century, perhaps based on trying to foster talent and skills as the Dutch do and/or be the next Belgium on the international stage – the bluster of recent years has been exposed by the big money not coming here, and the recent manic depressive state that teams from Rangers to Gretna have gone through we all know is a path that is doomed, by simple economics, to fail. Those of us old enough to remember the 80s know that there was a real excitement to the game here, driven by having a number of competitive teams. But can the Scottish authorities ever be expected to come out and champion a return to that?
Greenock Jack says:
February 9, 2014 at 11:45 am
It’ll be ironic if after beating the SPFL leaders at Parkhead, you then can’t handle the pressure of being favourites and lose at Ibrox.
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Ach! Dumbarton! I’d have loved T’RFC at Ibrox!
What a surprise that TRFC get ANOTHER home game against someone like Albion Rovers, eh?
Congrats to Dundee United
Better team won
Home draw for TRFC Quelle surprise! 🙁
GeordieJag says:
February 9, 2014 at 1:58 pm
0 0 Rate This
Apologies for continuing an OT thread but I was in the Sportsman’s in November with an expat mate who always calls it “the Thistle Bar” because of the signed Thistle shirt that was in a prominent position above the bar (alongside various other mainly Scottish footie shirts).
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A quick search engine search would suggest that it is either No2 or No9 in someone’s top 10 dive bars in Singapore. It mentions Rangers and Celtic and there is definitely a Celtic shirt in the picture. I’ll leave it others to judge whether a Thistle shirt moves it up or down the top dive list. 😉
http://www.hungrygowhere.com/dining-guide/what-to-drink/top-10-dive-bars-in-singapore-*aid-5a523f00/
This shows the stupidity of deciding the semi final venues before know which teams are playing.
The team from Ibrox will be playing at home in the semi final should they beat Albion Rovers.
A joke imho
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Bill1903 says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:20 pm
1 0 Rate This
This shows the stupidity of deciding the semi final venues before know which teams are playing.
The team from Ibrox will be playing at home in the semi final should they beat Albion Rovers.
A joke imho
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If Albion Rovers don’t prove too big a handful most folks will see TRFC as semi-final favourites, no matter who they should meet. But there is one factor working against them — their manager.
But first things first. As underdogs Albion Rovers will have the support of most neutrals. And as a club that was once forced to fight its corner against the former RFC in order to survive, a sense of historic injustice may lend a bit more drama to the occasion.
Scottish football will almost certainly need strong, unbiased referees.
mirrenman says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:17 pm
3 0 Rate This
Congrats to Dundee United
Better team won
Home draw for TRFC Quelle surprise! 🙁
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Home draw and , coincidentally , last two balls out are the smallest team left in the competition and Sevco . Anyone care to guess the temperature difference between those two balls and all others ?
Bill1903 says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:20 pm
‘…The team from Ibrox will be playing at home in the semi final should they beat Albion Rovers.’
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Unsurprisingly, such has been the disgraceful readiness on the part of the SFA to cheat, that it requires a supreme effort (which, I’m sorry to say, is probably beyond me) NOT to believe that the premature choice of venue was arranged in concert with the plans for a rigged draw!
This is what happens when an institution is found once to have seriously cheated.
Trust is destroyed.
Who can see the SFA Board as other than the mirror image of the CGs and SDMs of the world? Fundamentally and fatally flawed, fit only for the bin.
Temporisers, compromisers and ultimately cheats.
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Home again, against Albion Rovers? Not often I agree with Ally but not many of us would have bet against it.
Woooohhhhoooooo
Finally back in 😆
May not add too much but delighted to be able to try.
Thank you for all your efforts.
Was at celtic park yesterday and Aberdeen deserved to progress.
Maybe just maybe we will get back to the 80s with celtic ,Aberdeen ,Dundee Utd and others fighting it out for trophies before Moonbeems Murray ruined Scottish football by spending other peoples money and IMHO ruining the chances of a generation of young homegrown talent who were over looked in favour of overpaid mercanaries by Deadco and others in their attempts to keep up with what has now been proven to be an unlevel playing field.
Ps Newco are quite welcome to compete if only they play by the rules and not try to buy success, already they are spending more than they can afford in their persuit which doesn’t bode well for the future
Taking away the Rangers getting a home advantage.
Should Aberdeen and St Johnstone play again in the semi they’ll be lost in Ibrox as opposed to last weekends Tynecastle cauldron.
andygraham.66 says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:06 pm
10 0 Rate This
‘Something tells me that in May, Rangers will lift the SC at Parkhead.
It would be another one of football’s delicious ironies.’
Quickly followed by the realisation that you would not be able to represent your country in the Europa League
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Should such a scenario occur, the pressure on the SFA to cite ‘exceptional circumstances’ will be enormous.
Greenock Jack says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:37 pm
2 1 Rate This
HMS
Do they heat plastic balls?
You can’t take anything for granted, look what Morton and Albion Rovers themselves achieved earlier in the season.
Albion Rovers shouldn’t be disrespected by posters with a presumption of outcome
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Stating Albion Rivers are the smallest team left in the draw is being disrespectful ? Are you serious ?
Carntyne says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:09 pm
Maybe so, but by the same token, if we had summer football, then the Scottish Champions would be fully match fit when facing the 17 or so qualifying rounds to get into the mis-named Champions league.
A further potential benefit would be Scottish Football maybe having a “product” to sell to the TV companies over the summer months and secure more income than when in direct competition with the EPL.
I am old enough to remember the experimental Summer Cup competition – mid sixties? – which Celtic and Rangers (not yet liquidated) declined to to take part in.
As I lived fairly near Firhill I remember going to a couple of games there and it was great stuff not freezing your bits off
Scottish Football needs some administrators with courage and imagination.
Greenock Jack says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:55 pm
I believe that 3 years of audited accounts are required before a license will be granted to play in Europe.
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I think it is 3 years uninterrupted membership of the SFA
Tartanwulver says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:12 pm
1 0 Rate This
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What got me thinking was not so much the ex-pat audience but the mention of this deal that made some headlines last year:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/spfl-agree-deal-broadcast-scottish-2675908
It’s hardly mega-millions, but if the live games streamed to China put on a wee show in the build-up, something unique, something foreigners expect to see from Scotland; and if the contests were well-attended (due to cut-price tickets and free entry for kids?), that would also add to the sense of atmosphere. These games could gather a following. A pulsating Hibs v Hearts, DU v Dundee, Aberdeen v Ross County/ICT, and Celtic v almost anyone, could be better viewing than some of the more less glamorous EPL fixtures.
As someone mentioned, though, it’s unlikely that those currently running the game have the nous or the sporting integrity to move things forward.