The Case for a New SFA.

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The Case for a New SFA.

After making inquiries into progress on Resolution 12 to the Celtic AGM of 2013 there is little doubt in my mind that the SFA made a serious error in the process of UEFA licensing.

Here are some facts:

 

  1. UEFA does not issue licences to clubs who have due tax bills outstanding,
  2. UEFA require the SFA to satisfy themselves of a club’s eligibility for a licence and that clubs have provided proof no overdue tax payable exists,
  3. UEFA also require a club to tell the SFA and UEFA if, after the issue of a licence there are material changes in their circumstances which would affect their eligibility – including the situation at #1 above,
  4. UEFA awarded Rangers a licence to play in European competition in March 2011,
  5. In May 2011 Rangers received a tax bill, which they did not contest or appeal or agree a payment plan. The bill (which remains unpaid) was overdue by 30 June 2011,
  6. UEFA received no notice of this,
  7. Rangers did not lose their licence and in fact competed in both the Champions’ League and The Europa League in that season.

 

None of these facts are disputed (as far as is known) by anyone connected to the saga. What is in doubt, because the SFA won’t answer the question, is whether they received a copy of the tax bill and the May letter that accompanied it from Rangers or not.

If they did send it to the SFA, Rangers could reasonably argue that they did their bit and the SFA fell down on the job by failing to notify UEFA of their new unfavourable tax status.

If Rangers did not send it, then they had broken not only UEFA FFP rules but more importantly the trust amongst SFA members that full disclosure is honestly made in a self-certification process. The SFA in not carrying out their monitoring responsibilities properly and using the powers UEFA FFP gave them also broke that trust.

In either case, there is a systematic failure by the SFA to administer the sport effectively; either through a failure of trust, a failure of administration – or both.

Even worse, in the four years that have elapsed since this incident, it seems that nothing has been done to put matters right. The SFA have been very active in refusing to answer questions on the matter, particularly this one;

“How will you prevent it happening again?”

 Incredibly, up to now, no measures have been put in place to add rigour to the licensing process. Are they really saying that they think the process was carried out satisfactorily?

No they are saying nothing. Silence and denial, followed by silence and inaction.

So what is the point of this article? Let’s call out the elephant in the room right away – it is unequivocally not to have a go at Rangers. This is no longer really about Rangers at all, but about the SFA’s mal-governance of the game. Besides, clubs affected by this seeming failure on the part of the authorities (in that year Celtic, Dundee United and Hearts and Kilmarnock) are hardly likely to successfully sue a club now in liquidation (although small shareholders might take a different view with regard to the SFA’s conduct).

Nor am I seeking to find some retrospective punishment for the club (as far as I know sanctions are neither available retrospectively, nor useful in this case ) but to be aware that the question above urgently needs to be addressed if the status of football as a sport is to be maintained.

To the extent that this is about what has happened to Rangers, does anyone – no matter what club they owe their allegiance to – seriously consider that TRFC would NOT be in a better situation today had the SFA acted with propriety and applied their rules correctly in 2011/12?

With the kind of money on offer these days for entry into Europe, and the interdependent nature of the game, it seems fairly self-evident that trust is not enough to allow effective regulation, and that incompetent governance where money is the paramount consideration is unacceptable.

The SFA has long enjoyed a misconceived impression of its function as being that of a quasi-legal body, bestowing upon it a status of independence and aloofness from the partisan interest of the clubs. In the main, fans have largely bought into that myth. However the SFA is nothing of the kind.

It is in fact merely a cartel which is allowed to govern itself for its own benefit and is only accountable to the clubs that make up its membership, and not the fans. Check out the last sentences of almost any rule, where discretionary powers awarded to itself effectively render the rule worthless and unenforceable.

Literally, a nihilistic approach to governance

Maybe it is time the SFA scrapped the get out of jail discretionary clauses, and put some robust regulation in place to ensure the financial transparency of all clubs?

Even better, politicians are never slow to tell us of the importance of football to the social fabric of the country – in that case why not follow their own rhetoric, recognise that it cannot be allowed to self regulate in narrow self interest, and legislate to have football governed independently?

If I was a Rangers fan, I’d be thinking that the SFA’s failure to police the UEFA licencing issue helped accelerate the club’s demise – by making it easier to paper over the cracks.

If I was a Celtic, Hearts, Dundee United or Killie fan, well the consequences for them in terms of lost financial and competitive opportunities are fairly obvious.

Conclusion? The clubs can no longer be trusted to run the affairs of the industry themselves.

A new independent, accountable regulatory body (funded by the clubs) is the minimum we need to save the game in this country. It should comprise representatives of the clubs, the fans and other stakeholders – and it should have a holistic remit as its prime directive, whilst ensuring fair and equitable treatment of all clubs.

It can take decisions on the basis of what is good for the game without the baggage of self-interest, and without any west of Scotland institutionalised bias. Of course Scotland isn’t alone in this. Football is a powerful political force across the world, and as developments at FIFA over the past couple of years have demonstrated, it is institutionally corrupt. The clubs can no longer be allowed to run it as they see fit, and we need to begin a campaign which will ultimately convince the pay-at-the-gate fan of the truth of that.

The UEFA licensing issue is only a pebble in the sand of football incompetence and corruption, but it is a microcosm of what ails the game. The good of the sport, and not individual clubs, is paramount. The SFA cannot and will not deliver that.

The case for a new regulatory body is clear, and the status quo is not an option unless the death of the sport is deemed acceptable.

There is little doubt in my mind that unless regime change is effected, in a few decades there will be no regime .

About the author

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Big Pink administrator

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

1,255 Comments so far

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wottpiPosted on5:55 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Feeling sorry for all the Bhoys on here who have over the piece from RTC days to this very week been asking questions re their board’s position on all matters T’Rangers and tried to separate themselves from the other cheek, only to have their top man appearing to pull out the Superglue and well and truly stick them back together again.
Appreciate the arguments for wanting Celtic to be playing on a bigger sage but why mention a fledgling second tier club in the same breath unless you really see yourself as so weak to portray them as equals and used as a twisted bargaining tool?
Well lads you now have your answers. Very very disappointing.

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woodstein

woodsteinPosted on6:13 pm - Sep 30, 2015


John Clark 30th September 2015 at 3:16 pm #
——————————————————————–
http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/50-1/1001388.aspx
“Preliminary hearings will be held on a daily basis in Glasgow, and on two or three days per week in Edinburgh, with, on average, five cases being programmed for each daily sitting and lasting for one hour each.”
 
May be changed by this:
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/warning-high-court-changes-will-hit-poorest-hardest
Written on 22 December 2014
“All preliminary hearings – a mandatory pre-trial procedure to decide if a case is ready to go for trial – are now being heard in Glasgow High Court following a change in October.
In September, the Lord President, Lord Gill, said having Glasgow as a dedicated centre instead of a three-way split with Edinburgh and Aberdeen “will free up court time for other hearings and effect significant savings in legal aid”.

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on6:30 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Allyjambo 30th September 2015 at 3:55 pm #

Clearly I am not a Celtic man, and have refrained from posting on Celtic’s silence over Sevco as I see it as a Celtic supporters matter. Today, however, for the first time, Celtic’s main shareholder, and, I would suspect, driving force, spoken of ‘Rangers’ and has made what appears to be a PR statement rather than something he’s come up with having had a microphone stuck in his face. He has said something that I feel I can confidently say, will please TRFC supporters much more than their Celtic equivalent. That is wrong!

He is either totally oblivious to the overwhelming feelings of the Celtic support, or just doesn’t care when money is involved. I doubt what he said has taken Celtic one step closer to the English League, but it has given TRFC, and King, a fillip and a step closer to obtaining some credibility in their search for mug investors.

My sympathy to Auldheid and his fellow campaigners. There’s somebody at the very top not listening.

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wildwood

wildwoodPosted on6:51 pm - Sep 30, 2015


What a real boot in the haw maws that has been from Dermot Desmond.
I don’t suppose it’s a massive surprise to many of us though. I’m just glad that the opinion from the very top at Celtic is finally out there.
Absolutely dismal stuff. Depressing.
Justice and Fair Play means sod all – it’s all about perpetuating the cancer.

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yakutsuki

yakutsukiPosted on7:05 pm - Sep 30, 2015


wildwood 30th September 2015 at 6:51 pm #What a real boot in the haw maws that has been from Dermot Desmond. I don’t suppose it’s a massive surprise to many of us though. I’m just glad that the opinion from the very top at Celtic is finally out there.
—————————————————————-

 Sorry WW, it’s not ‘The very top at Celtic’ it’s really the pits!

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on7:08 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Extracted from DD interview;
In an interview with Sky Sports the Irish tycoon said:
“We would like to compete in the Holy Grail in England…
“Maybe it’s going to be 10 years but it’s inevitable.
“Rangers and Celtic are among the top 10 teams in Britain… 
“It’s inevitable there will be changes.”
============================
First, IMO, Desmond has done nothing wrong from his own, business perspective.
He is talking up, and protecting his investment in CFC.

But this simply reaffirms the perennial conflict between business objectives and sporting objectives.

Second, IMO, Desmond should be hit with a disrepute charge from the SFA.
I know, but don’t laugh…
This is where the SFA is supposed to protect the image and sporting ideals of the Scottish game. A major club ‘owner’ telling the world he is desperate to get his club out of the Scottish game must break a number of the SFA’s rules…[yes, I know].
But alas, nothing changes.
A bit of a flurry in the media, and Desmond will slip back into the shadows again without any further explanation.
And the paying fans continue to get treated like “theweejobbyicon”.
Just a bit puzzled why he bothered to mention this to Sky, and why now ?

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on7:23 pm - Sep 30, 2015


wottpi 30th September 2015 at 5:55 pm #

Its nothing that hasn’t been blindingly bloody obvious since the RTC days. Underneath the spin, bluster & obfuscation, I suspect Desmond represents the board’s true view quite accurately.
If it gets us away from the idea that “rogue” elements in the SFA/SPL/SFL/SPFL did everything and then ran away into big bonuses & lovely new jobs, then, its probably a good thing.
I continue to support Celtic, but some of the magic has undoubtedly gone.

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John ClarkPosted on7:27 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Allyjambo 30th September 2015 at 6:30 pm #
‘….Celtic’s main shareholder, and, I would suspect, driving force, spoken of ‘Rangers’ and has made what appears to be a PR statement rather than something he’s come up with having had a microphone stuck in his face. ‘
_________
Yes, and with a pre-prepared ‘question’ from Chris Mc ( and which spelling of ‘mclaughlin ‘ is the right one), to give him  the chance to condemn himself as being of no greater moral worth than the chaps on the 6th Floor, or a SDM.
The motivations might be different, but the end result is the same: endorsement of cheating, with the media men happy to go along with it.

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SmugasPosted on7:31 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Cheers Wottpi @5.55

my thoughts almost word for word.  Dermot has no reason to mention them unless he feels they have toy come as a package deal and couldn’t cope going it alone.

I’ve said before that I’d Keegan style luv it if the golden invite arrived but just for Celtic. I think more than a few would be surprised at the resulting responses.

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on7:37 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Not in my name DD. 
   My wee cousin mainly uses my season ticket. He won’t be next season. If your reading, sorry Paul. 

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on7:42 pm - Sep 30, 2015


wottpi 30th September 2015 at 5:55 pm #
I should have added that I derive just as much schadenfreude from seeing Desmond’s minions’ efforts come to naught, as I do from watching Rangers’ self immolation 21 
You can Just imagine the conversation
Peter: Paul, you had one job, one simple job
Paul: 11

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parttimearabPosted on8:03 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Where to begin with the Dermot Desmond thing….
“I think it is inevitable there will be changes in football. “
Well d’oh….really…you think….
in terms of the Old/New(ish) firm…as you prefer….moving down south, that’s been inevitable for the last 30 years and oddly enough it hasn’t happened yet
And then….
“It would bring big teams up to Scotland and rekindle the interest in soccer by having the United’s and Arsenal’s up here.”
Well gee Dermot thanks….but no thanks…oddly enough I’m still interested in “soccer” (tells you all you need to know) without them…but hey, I feel your pain….
Apologies for the rant but I’ve been getting progressively sick of this s***e since the early nineties and had been enjoying a brief respite….should’ve known better  06

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SmugasPosted on8:07 pm - Sep 30, 2015


  1. Funnily enough I’ve read two articles on the bbc site today (sorry not techie enough to do the Linkey things) the Desmond article where at least they don’t go the Sevco hog with the headline (unlike Reporting Scotland) and another article on the difficulties the poor mans cousin, golfs European tour has being up against the US’ PGA offering (itself hidden under a headline about the Speith Day rivalry).  I’m struck by some similarities between the articles but what is most noticeable is that there is no mention of elephants in the room – the tiger draw factor.  The two at the top (personally I’d argue three with a re-ankled Rory) are there on merit.  Perform and the galleries and advertisers will come.  Yes it would be nice if Tiger came along for the ride.  But he can’t.  Pity.  Now let’s move on.

What a novel, quaint and unfamiliar concept.

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SmugasPosted on8:26 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Apologies, still getting fat fingers round new editor.

you’ll hopefully get drift numbered bullet points or otherwise!

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yourhavingalaugh

yourhavingalaughPosted on8:53 pm - Sep 30, 2015


What’s DD up to,is he calling out the media in some bizarre Trojan Horse or has the mind gone altogether ,he has always been game for a challenge,who is in this with him,Phil can you drill down on this.

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on9:04 pm - Sep 30, 2015


On Fields of Green had a fairly detailed piece on Lawell’s involvement with the SFA visiting Qatar and which obviously led to our well run points deducting game against the desert giants.

Link to James piece here:
http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/friends-in-low-places/

Is Lawell merely following his masters orders?
Anyway all my Celtic pals are well cheesed off with this latest slap in the face.

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jimboPosted on9:18 pm - Sep 30, 2015


Who would you rather have as majority shareholder DD or DK?  Whereas some of his comments reported today might be a tad controversial it’s hardly in the realms of a certain SA convicted person.

I suspect DD has a ‘fondness’ for Celtic like a lot of Irish people do.  He never usually seeks out the limelight, is not the CEO or Chairman and especially does not employ level5.  And at least he turns up at Parkhead now and again.

Not perfect, who is?  But as I understand it he was speaking on the 19th hole.12

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on9:31 pm - Sep 30, 2015


jimbo 30th September 2015 at 9:18 pm #

Um, well. Its certainly true to say that DD has none of the convictions that Mr King enjoys. However, DD’s business career has not been without its fair share, (more than, some might say), of controversial dealings.
DD is of course a genuine Euro Bilionaire, thanks in no small part to his London City Airport deal, which was a very smart piece of work indeed. 
In fact, one could make a case that Dermot Desmond has enjoyed precisely the sort of business career that Mr King aspired to, but, largely failed to achieve 03

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rabtdogPosted on10:10 pm - Sep 30, 2015


‘We haven’t played in the Champions League group stages since 2013 when we got humped five games out of six by Barca, Milan and Ajax. Last season and this, we’ve fallen back into the Europa League, but frankly, the money’s nowhere near as good. Meanwhile, we’re not top of the league in Scotland and I’m probably going to have to put my hand in my pocket in January to make f*kk*n sure we finish above Aberdeen. For god’s sake, can we get Rangers back for the television money and then maybe a move to England? This franchise is f*kk*n killing me…’

DD

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on10:15 pm - Sep 30, 2015


DD comments are unsurprising and reveal the real cancer in Scottish football. Our leadership.
He wants EPL. From the warm words advanced towards the successor club to football’s biggest ever cheats, sporting integrity can play second fiddle to this ambition.
 In that regard he is little different to moonbeams Murray chasing champions league glory. 
Who knows, he may or may not one day get his wish. (It’s not my club so I am equivocal)
But… Importantly, the EPL is an unstable bubble. It is built upon wishes and quicksand. It is utterly financially  unsustainable in the long term.
A correction is long overdue. And it is coming.
Then the powers that be will know the meaning of Armageddon.
It makes no more sense for Scottish football to look enviously towards the EPLtoday  as it did for Celtic AFC founded 1888 to look enviously on at the basketcase of Rangers FC 1872-2012 during the late 1990s and early 2000s as they cheated their way to meaningless trophies, won entirely without honest endeavour.

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on10:17 pm - Sep 30, 2015


DD comments are unsurprising and reveal the real cancer in Scottish football. Our leadership.
He wants EPL. From the warm words advanced towards the successor club to football’s biggest ever cheats, sporting integrity can play second fiddle to this ambition.
 In that regard he is little different to moonbeams Murray chasing champions league glory. 
Who knows, he may or may not one day get his wish. (It’s not my club so I am equivocal)
But… Importantly, the EPL is an unstable bubble. It is built upon wishes and quicksand. It is utterly financially  unsustainable in the long term.
A correction is long overdue. And it is coming.
Then the powers that be will know the meaning of Armageddon.
It makes no more sense for Scottish football to look enviously towards the EPLtoday  than it did for  Celtic AFC founded 1888 to look enviously on at the basketcase of Rangers FC 1872-2012 during the late 1990s and early 2000s as they cheated their way to meaningless trophies, won entirely without honest endeavour.

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John ClarkPosted on10:25 pm - Sep 30, 2015


jimbo 30th September 2015 at 9:18 pm #
‘…Who would you rather have as majority shareholder DD or DK? Whereas some of his comments reported today might be a tad controversial ..’
____________
For me, DD’s remarks indicate that, in effect,
he personally endorses the cheating by SDM,
happily accepts either the possible complicity in that cheating or the major  inefficiency of senior officers in the SFA ( with strong former ties to that disgraceful knight’s RFC) and in the former SPL, in the exercise of their governance duties
 gratefully accepts the rigging and sabotaging of the LNS enquiry
and smilingly  endorses the outrageous 5-Way agreement, going along with the ‘Big Lie’ that ‘The Rangers FC founded in 2012 by Charles Green is one and the same as RFC presently languishing in Liquidation.
He quite possibly also wishes and hopes that the Res 12 issue will disappear.
It will be a cold day in hell when I would knowingly be in Mr Desmond’s company.
When I have overcome my rage, I will write to him and tell him so.
But hell will freeze over before I would put him in the same category as DK.

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on11:54 pm - Sep 30, 2015


jimbo 30th September 2015 at 11:09 pm #

I wish I shared your faith. However, every last sordid detail is going to come out, and when it does, at least everyone will know. At that point, maybe, just maybe, we can start to re-build.

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jimboPosted on12:09 am - Oct 1, 2015


The honest truth?  I don’t wont DD to be a sugar daddy.  Neither do I won’t him to be talking about Celtic in footballing terms he has about as much knowledge as me and that’s not a lot.

Stick to the golf DD, but as I said earlier (although my post was pulled I think) he has a horrible moustache!07

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Cygnus X2

Cygnus X2Posted on12:34 am - Oct 1, 2015


Well, at least Dermott Desmond’s not as bad as Dave King, eh?!
Not a terribly powerful argument I’d say.
The blog post is ‘The case for a new SFA’.  I think Mr Desmond has confirmed that the reform needs to encompass the senior leadership of Celtic and Rangers as well.
There are many fans of clubs all across Scotland who would advocate that Celtic and a version of Rangers are welcome to sod off to England and let the rest of us build a vibrant national league on our own.
What’s the point in striving for a long term vision for Scottish domestic football if the two prima donnas just permanently lobby to be playing elsewhere?  
At the very least the rest of us would be entitled to have an SFA that has no representation of officials from either club, past or present, because neither club can be trusted to make decisions in terms of the long term interests of the game in Scotland.
I’d far rather that some of the Celtic fans on here were running that Quisling club.

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on12:43 am - Oct 1, 2015


EPL pricing out fans.
It Will not end well.
Economics 101
…poof! 
Addicted die hard fans are already deserting the Bollinger of Stamford bridge for the Buckie of lower league outfits. Have you seen the price of an EPL season ticket?
And all it takes is one EU or TTIP legal challenge and TV money is vapour! 
And what does that leave?
Unpaid bills and dishonoured contracts. 

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AuldheidPosted on12:53 am - Oct 1, 2015


AllyJambo
Celtic originally opposed Res12 to ask the UEFA Club Financial Control Body to investigate the processing of the UEFA licence to RFC in 2011 on the grounds that the resolution wasn’t necessary based  on what SFA had told them.
Prior to the AGM evidence that challenged the explanation the SFA gave to the club  was presented to Celtic. As a result the Res was not voted out but adjourned, meaning it can still be pursued if the evidence indeed confirms an investigation by UEFA is necessary. That was our understanding at the time.
Since 2013 in the absence of answers to questions put to the SFA and what is now known, it would be very difficult for Celtic to now vote against Res12 if a push comes to a shove.
RFC broke the rules in terms of what they were required to do when the bill arrived. They also made an untruthful statement to UEFA regarding the tax bill which could be fraudulent given the monetary gain.
The SFA were either negligent or complicit with subsequent activity suggesting the latter  and for Celtic to vote down Res12 which would require DD to use his votes against small shareholders would deny everything Celtic supporters thinks  the club stands for.
Throw  in the deception of LNS by a similar means as to how the UEFA licence rules was circumvented and a vote against Res12 by Celtic led by DD  would imo be a vote against Celtic’s future.
Much more sensible to tackle the villains than self harm.
In the meantime representatives of small shareholders are pursuing the issue via solicitors. We already have volunteer seed funding without asking for any and I’m confident that if we have to take SFA to court to tell the world what we believe to be true, funding will not be an issue.
Funnily enough, whilst SFA reform is a hoped for outcome of Res12 the idea of no SFA at all and only a UK FA has its attractions on some fronts.
Maybe DD is prescient?

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Barcabhoy

BarcabhoyPosted on1:27 am - Oct 1, 2015


When anyone with Dermott’s success level speaks , it’s worth listening closely . When the success level is accompanied by very rare public comment , then as well as listening closely it would be wise to try and understand why this was the time to speak. 

Obviously being in Scotland and a lot more accessible at St Andrews than at Celtic Park, is probably the explanation for timing. However why speak is more important. 

The most important thing that Dermott said was ” Got your back Ronny” . There has been some online grumbling about not being in the CL and not running away with the SPL. Dermott has nailed the noise. Quite rightly in my view. Ronny will be supported and we won’t have a major strategy change , because there is no viable credible alternative. We might tweek things , but basically we are “all in ” on continuing along the path of the last 5 years. 

Thats a positive in my view .

The noise though is about the change of playing environment .  The comments in that are harder to fathom. Why now ? 
The fan reaction was always going to be been there , heard it before. Similarly the media are going to react in the obvious way . Lots of chatter , lots of noise , lots of stuff that’s been said a hundred times before. 

However all of that misses the point. The key comment wasn’t British League. The key comment was , technology has changed and the old way of negotiating broadcast rights are done. Stick a fork in them , we won’t be going down that road again. 

Its extremely encouraging that the key shareholder in the biggest club in Scotland recognises the opportunity. You can guarantee Celtic will be very well prepared for the end of the Sky & BT’s contracts. We won’t be stung again. The reality is if we get everything properly in place, Sky & BT won’t have the leverage they enjoy now. Ever again 

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on3:05 am - Oct 1, 2015


http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/uncategorized/football-johnstone-welcomes-chance-to-establish-fan-rights/      

Wednesday, September 30th, 2015
Alison Johnstone MSP has welcomed the launch of the Scottish Government consultation into fan involvement in Scottish football clubs. The consultation seeks views on legislation that would establish fan rights in the stewardship of Scottish football clubs.
The consultation opens after the Scottish Greens secured amendments to the Community Empowerment Bill that give Ministers the power to establish a fans’ right to buy their football clubs.
Alison said:
“This is a very exciting moment for Scottish football – it’s a chance for us to give fans a proper say in the running of the clubs they support. I’m very happy to see the Scottish Greens’ campaign for fans’ rights in football come this far, and I now hope to see as wide a public response to this consultation as possible – this is the chance to put Scottish football on the path to a brighter and more secure future.
“Too often we see clubs run into financial trouble, or ignore the wishes of supporters, because of poor stewardship by owners whose interests are not always rooted in the community. I believe our clubs would be in safer hands if supporters had the power to take charge when appropriate – after all, fans are the people who have a real love for the game and know their clubs inside and out.  Fan ownership is already the norm in countries like Germany, and there’s no reason why Scottish fans should not benefit from the same rights as football supporters elsewhere.
“I’ve been pleased to see many of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament express support for fan ownership, and I hope to see this support continue. In the coming months, I look forward to working with supporter groups and football clubs to make sure the Scottish Government can do the right thing for Scottish football and set the fans’ right to own and run their clubs into legislation.”
– See more at: http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/uncategorized/football-johnstone-welcomes-chance-to-establish-fan-rights/#sthash.9yisG1SX.dpuf

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the taxman cometh

the taxman comethPosted on6:20 am - Oct 1, 2015


https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC003487/filing-history

26/11/2014
Resolutions
Resolution of removal of pre-emption rights
Resolution of allotment of securities
Resolution of allotment of securities

Anyone know anything about these resolutions?
Have they been voted on?
If so what was the result?

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HighlanderPosted on7:26 am - Oct 1, 2015


Barcabhoy 1st October 2015 at 1:27 am #

Sorry BB, I am normally a fan of your posts and while I fully recognise your right to hold a different opinion, the excuses you attempt to supply in defence of Dermott Desmond are simply feeble in the extreme. I will say no more on the subject lest I have this post pulled by the mods, but frankly you are attempting to defend the indefensible, in my humble opinion of course.

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easyJamboPosted on7:58 am - Oct 1, 2015


the taxman cometh 1st October 2015 at 6:20 am # https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC003487/filing-history
26/11/2014
Resolutions
Resolution of removal of pre-emption rights
Resolution of allotment of securities
Resolution of allotment of securities
Anyone know anything about these resolutions? Have they been voted on? If so what was the result?
 

 
The results are available on the club’s website

http://www.celticfc.net/pages/corporate_investornews

Check the 2014 AGM documents for the results

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FinlochPosted on8:04 am - Oct 1, 2015


DD knows that his club are “smaller” now in the current European football world than they have been at any time since the mid sixties.
He knows that if things don’t change that his team will be managing a real and in time a comparative decline too.
He wants to find a solution that will allow his very well supported club to move forward because they have been and are different to the other members of the leagues they currently compete in.
Big fish in a wee pond.
Throwing in Rangers as “partners in crime” stops the unfriendly MSM attacking Celtic.
Quite a smart shield.
I can’t blame him in any way and don’t see what the fuss is about.
Change has always been endemic.

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the taxman cometh

the taxman comethPosted on8:22 am - Oct 1, 2015


Thanks for that easyjambo, looks like dissaplication was res 10 ans was passed by a show of hands – wtf?
Anyone else think it odd that Celtic has dissapplied pre emption rights, why now?

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John ClarkPosted on8:51 am - Oct 1, 2015


Highlander 1st October 2015 at 7:26 am #
‘..the excuses you attempt to supply in defence of Dermott Desmond are simply feeble in the extreme.’
Barcabhoy 1st October 2015 at 1:27 am #
‘..The key comment wasn’t British League..’
Finloch 1st October 2015 at 8:04 am #
‘…Throwing in Rangers as “partners in crime” stops the unfriendly MSM attacking Celtic.Quite a smart shield.’
_________
Desmond can air his views on a British League ( with which I would vehemently disagree), or on Celtic joining the EPL or whether the moon is made of cheese.
With respect, the key thing for me in what he said  is that he quite unnecessarily brought ‘Rangers’ into his observations.
And that, to me, is tantamount to accepting things as they are: that the game has been rigged and continues to be skewed as any kind of legitimately organised ‘Sport’ by a parcel of rogues succouring another parcel of rogues. His utterances can be seized upon as some kind of legitimisation of a dreadful wrongdoing.
The World  Football is going after Blatter, European Football is going after Platini, and Scottish Football should be going after the signatories of the 5Way agreement. And those who attempt to persuade us otherwise.
There is nothing smart in evading, or  dodging the truth, or in trying to profit from untruth, or conspiring to propagate an untruth.

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AuldheidPosted on9:13 am - Oct 1, 2015


Highlander
On the matter of the way TV is supplied I don’t see anything in that as excusing DD. The changes in technology now allow supporters to go back to the days of only paying to watch their club play rather than paying into a pool where their share is shallow.
At present there is no payment at all, but as in the days of prohibition it will prove easier to licence and so tax booze than pay for the policing to stop the flow. 
I subscribe to Celtic TV but I could watch on streams if I wanted to. Any game in fact. To the technolgy add the human dilemma: if you had the opportunity to fund your club knowing what you pay is going to end largely in their coffers (with a share to opponents obviously) would you still pay to SKY or BT to enrich clubs that without TV money would shrink to their support level size?
If we only see what DD says on TRFC through TRFC spectacles we can miss the bigger picture. In any case should something like a UK or European League emerge, DD and Celtic would be as powerless to stop it as they were when the 5 Way was being constructed. The other 40 clubs out vote Celtic so what DD says about TRFC is a reflection of that reality. 
In a UK league TRFC would be no more relevant to Celtic than any other club Celtic would play and it would end year on year decline for all Scottish clubs.

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tayred

tayredPosted on9:22 am - Oct 1, 2015


Typical Old Firm – They can’t handle the heat of competition from outside their cosy partnership so now they want out! 09

I am at a loss as to why there are several folk I hold in high esteem here attempting to defend these comments from DD. I agree with an earlier statement that he should now be up on a SFA charge for these comments. But that won’t happen. Why go out of his way to belittle the Scottish game? Most sane folk are talking about a regeneration of the Scottish game – its slow, but genuine I believe. The biggest risk to that being successful is TRFC and Celtic, the SFA are bit part players compared to those two establishments.
Comments earlier also suggested that DD is protecting his investment – that is just bull – his investment currently functions within the SPL, it will continue to work within the SPL for many years to come. He should be doing what he can to improve the SPL, THAT is the ONLY way for his precious investment to flourish. Doing down the SPL can only degrade his investment.
Makes me boke that people even discuss these things as “investments” – who in their right mind would see a football club as an “investment” anyway!? Surely you couldn’t go into that with realistic expectations of making money?
The EPL are not interested – how many times do we have to sit through this mind-numbing debate!?!?!? As raised above, the EPL is frankly poised for a cataclysmic collapse. It won’t take much for the whole glossy facade to collapse – its unsustainable, and when it does collapse the fallout is going to be huge given the levels of money they happily dole out. 
So do us a favour DD et al, stop girning about your perception of the game in Scotland and instead start trying to develop the game as a whole. Purely looking after number 1 (and looking after your blue shirted chums) will only give you limited success and it seems given the drop in crowds at Celtic park of recent times that even the Celtic fans are getting bored of that approach. It will give you limited success, success that used to be measured as Champions league qualification. If you don’t wake up that success will be no more than Europa league qualification – at best.
We have to grow the SPL, going back to the shitty days of the Old Firm (for that plainly IS how the Celtic board continue to view that loving partnership) will not lead to success for any of us. It will return us to the days of mutual destruction as two clubs overspend and the rest of us have to be grateful for scraps thrown our way.

Sorry, but those comments have just pulled the rug completely out from under the feet of all the good work that has been put in over the last few years. A “thanks folks, but once our friends are back the rest of you guys can f’off again”. The Celtic board move to form a combined Old Firm motto of “Nobody likes us but we don’t care….” Bloody depressing.

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SmugasPosted on9:36 am - Oct 1, 2015


JC,

Agree.  What he is reported as saying is a tacit acceptance that one simply doesn’t exist without the other regardless of the entirely self inflicted circumstances one half might find themselves in.  A reason for their being almost.

BB,

I see what you say, and yes one always has to be wary of what was said as opposed to what is reported, and I acknowledge and agree with “the important things” you picked out but fundamentally, I do not for one minute think that any senior member and/or representative of CFC has not been briefed on simply not going down certain avenues.  DD didn’t flirt with the edges of this particular time served cul de sac, he drove the proverbial bus down and through it.

RLD,

Funnily enough, attempts to freshen up the EPL trying to avert the otherwise certain implosion that’s coming their way, might perversely just offer certain clubs the footie up they need. 

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Danish PastryPosted on9:53 am - Oct 1, 2015


If Mr DD isn’t careful he’ll have his precious Celtic ‘bought and sold for English gold’. 

If he wants to move Celtic from ‘big fish in wee pond’ status to modest fish in uncertain shark-infested waters, good luck with that. 

Funnily enough, Archie Macpherson on 17 September 2014 was warning about fitba’s ‘slow lingering decline’ as the result of a Yes vote. But not because the entirety of Scottish football would be affected, oh no, but because ‘A vote for Yes in that respect will close doors permanently to our major clubs and consign them to a slow lingering decline.’ Who were these major clubs that merited a No vote in oor crucial referendum? Apparently the ones that have zero interest in any Scottish future. The Michelle Mones of fitba 🙂

This obsession with leaving Scottish fitba behind is tiring. But to be honest, if it’s going to happen, the sooner the better. Only clubs who see their long term future in Scotland should have any influence in the SFA (nod to Cygnus comment above).

Still, I’ll be cheering on our national champions this evening. But the thought that they don’t see any long-term future in Scotland is a sobering thought.

Fareweel to a’ our Scottish fame,Fareweel our ancient glory;Fareweel ev’n to the Scottish name,Sae fam’d in martial story.Now Sark rins over Solway sands,An’ Tweed rins to the ocean,To mark where England’s province stands…

 

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TommyBPosted on10:09 am - Oct 1, 2015


The Celtic board have always kept the smaller shareholders  at arms length. The agreement to withdraw resolution 12, two years ago was another slick move designed to quieten an agm already revolting on the living wage proposal (still being pursued). The board are doing their job but are not following the wishes of a large number of shareholders and supporters. Business conditions obviously dictate the actions of the board but there are social and moral issues that require to be ruled by what’s either right or wrong, not by business pragmatism. Cheating, lying and hiding the facts are not part of any business or social model that I want to be part of. DD and his ilk inhabit a world that most us don’t recognise, his pronouncements are relatively unimportant to me, but create a headline that finds favour with the people who think they are. Many of us will drift away from the game,  I’m reminded what Mr Stein said about football without fans.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on10:17 am - Oct 1, 2015


On one point, and one point only, II agree with  Desmond’s analysis. The current  model of TV income for football is finished. For the rest, I couldn’t disagree more.
Let’s follow through the obvious consequences for English football when the cash from Sky disappears. Quite clearly, most EPL clubs are then bankrupt, or at the very least facing unprecedented downsizing. What a brilliant time to head for England, Desmond! Let’s climb on board the Titanic just as the last lifeboat has been launched!
English football is the only league in Europe that is on permanent life support from TV income. Their bubble is about to burst in the most spectacular fashion, whereas Scottish football has so little to lose that it makes no difference.
But my main issue with Desmond  is not the madness of committing Celtic’s future to an obsolete business model which is heading for disaster.
Fundamentally, Celtic are a Scottish club, with a Scottish support, playing in a Scottish league in a Scottish city. Everything Celtic have ever achieved has been achieved in that context. Without the other Scottish clubs, big and small, Celtic would have achieved nothing. The idea that Celtic should now treat the country that they have thrived in for so long with utter contempt is in itself contemptible.
This constant itch to move to England needs urgent treatment, in my view. Celtic should come to terms with current reality, and use their substantial influence to make Scottish football better. The last 3 years have been a totally wasted opportunity from that viewpoint. Instead of radical change, all we have seen is a mammoth effort to turn the clock back to the good “old firm” days. Desmond has certainly now confirmed that analysis.
As regards Barcabhoy’s comment to the effect that we should just shut up and listen when Desmond opens his moth, because he’s got pots of money and we don’t, I really couldn’t disagree more. I  don’t know or care how Desmond got his money, but when he talks nonsense, he should be called out.
Finally, the idea of a UK FA. Why not fix the SFA instead? A UK FA means the end for Scottish international football. We can then all support “Team UK”- or maybe not. And this forum could become a UK Football Monitor.
Scotland is a small country, but what’s wrong with that? Are we trying to solve all Scottish football’s problems by abolishing it? Really? I thought I was pessimistic, but these are truly counsels of despair.

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AuldheidPosted on10:40 am - Oct 1, 2015


Neepheid
When you are manning a lifeboat is best time to dictate terms.
This isn’t about Celtic and or TRFC joining a UK league it’s about all Scottish clubs finding their level in one.
Look at Swansea as an example. A good team with good players ( one from Celtic) holding their own in a competitive league.

Then there is Southampton who are starting to look like Celtic in England with Celtic players.

It’s the game DD was talking about not two clubs. If a Dons fan looks to enjoy a trip to Sumstan  or other, why not to Bournemouth or Norwich or even Liverpool?

Our game is not prospering it’s treading water and sooner or later will drown or go back (God forbid) to hanging on to the two water wings that are Celtic and TRFC.
The future does not belong to us and in letting go of our past we can build one for our grandkids.

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tayred

tayredPosted on10:58 am - Oct 1, 2015


Auldheid

With respect I don’t think DD was talking about anyone other than his own club. But, giving him the benefit of doubt, I’m not sure many Dons fans would welcome the thought of joining the English leagues. I’d wager not many sets of fans would? What are the feelings of the SFM collective to that prospect?

Out of interest, has anyone from a club outside Rangers or Celtic ever spoken of such a move? I can’t recall, but then the memory ain’t what it used to be..

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SmugasPosted on11:01 am - Oct 1, 2015


Auldheid,

Once upon a time there were 42 people in a lifeboat following an incident at sea.   40 wished to head for safe (unexciting) waters and of the 2, one made no secret, in fact positively boasted of their desire to make a beeline straight for unchartered territory.  The other, for once, kept quiet, realising that as they faced other more pressing issues, not least that they were sitting in the inflatable dinghy wearing a cactus suit, that silence was probably the best course of action.

Who should hold sway, and why?

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SmugasPosted on11:02 am - Oct 1, 2015


Tayred,

One fundamental edit:  DD made a point of speaking about one other club, seemingly needlessly.

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tayred

tayredPosted on11:05 am - Oct 1, 2015


Smugas,

Yes, indeed he did. 

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on11:19 am - Oct 1, 2015


Smugas 1st October 2015 at 11:02 am #

Tayred,
One fundamental edit:  DD made a point of speaking about one other club, seemingly needlessly.
__________
The impression I was left with yesterday was not that we were witnessing the launching of the Titanic’s lifeboats, but rather the re-launching of the SS Old Firm!

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tayred

tayredPosted on11:23 am - Oct 1, 2015


Auldheid,

Sorry just re-read your statement in which you say 
“Our game is not prospering it’s treading water and sooner or later will drown or go back (God forbid) to hanging on to the two water wings that are Celtic and TRFC.”

Do you really believe that? Water wings? May I suggest that Rangers and Celtic could also be viewed as two lumps of concrete that threaten to drown the whole damned lot of us. 

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SmugasPosted on11:27 am - Oct 1, 2015


…and if there’s one thing you don’t want in a lifeboat its concrete!  Oh come on, couldn’t resist.  Plus I get to use one of these. 09

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tayred

tayredPosted on11:31 am - Oct 1, 2015


well there was Pycrete… amazing plans for that during WWII. If only I was any good at coming up with analogies 02

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on11:39 am - Oct 1, 2015


Has there been a change in policy, or are we mushrooms? 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17013512

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Big PinkPosted on11:42 am - Oct 1, 2015


Tayred,

I agree with you that water wings is a false analogy. Celtic and Rangers don’t trickle-down wealth to other clubs. They may add a spurious ‘glamour’ to the league (to outsiders), but whatever wealth they bring into the game they keep themselves.

However although the two lumps of concrete amy be a better analogy, it worthwhile remembering that the rest of the clubs loaded them up as cargo when they agreed to the gate retention and 11-1 voting proposals.

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tayred

tayredPosted on11:52 am - Oct 1, 2015


BP, No arguments there. The crew on this particular lifeboat all have their own dark pasts they need to reconcile.

Starting to sound like we developing a screenplay here – shame there isn’t a swooshy flashback smiley 

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AuldheidPosted on12:30 pm - Oct 1, 2015


BP

Does the TV income not depend a return to the bad old days?

Did other clubs not get a share in the bad old days?
Leaky water wings that stay drowning might be more apt  but still water wings. 🙂

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Big PinkPosted on12:34 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Auldheid,

From experience (and current knowledge) I know that Scottish clubs do not trust IP transmission, and will invest even less in it. Whatever happens with regard to matchday delivery, outsourcing will be involved to a great extent.

DD is being a bit cute with respect to New Technology. because currently, all Scottish clubs have a non-exclusive right to transmit and sell their own league games (over IP). Effectively that means no revenue sharing.

Other clubs would then be drawn into a bidding war for supporters’ cash on a per game basis – and the SPFL cartel won’t be happy with a downward pressure on prices.

Currently broadcasters have a minimum of a three camera crew in place at each Celtic game – a luxury not always afforded other clubs.

Consequently, the cost of production for CelticTV is largely borne by the broadcasters.

If the broadcasters are taken out of the mix, the cost of production (to compete with the Skys of this world) will rocket er, skyward 21.

There is no way in the world (in my view) that Celtic or any other club will invest in that increased cost-base.

Consequently I have no doubts at all that any move away from the broadcasters will have to be a collective thing involving all clubs, and on the basis that the bigger earners from the deal bear the greatest risk – which is where we all got off the SPLTV bus.

On a matter of which I have only anecdotal information to back myself up, Irish Celtic fans are very east and south-east facing when it comes to their football. That traces back to the advent of Match of the Day broadcasts 50 years ago which began and maintained an English football focus. I think DD is a victim (if that is the correct word) of that mentality, and that is why he has been preoccupied with a move to England – as was Fergus McCann before him.

I can forgive him for that, although there is an underlying disrespect for the game in Scotland embedded in his words (and a failure to understand his club’s part in the demise of the game).

I think that Scottish based Celtic fans have a different perspective on a move to England. The only way I would find it acceptable is if there was a British League – although that concept is even less likely in the current political climate prevailing in Scotland.

In my opinion Celtic will never be allowed access to the EPL whilst there is an SFA in place. Why? Well look at how frantically the authorities cheated and connived when faced with the prospect of losing one of the two best supported clubs in the country – and the non-existent queue of clubs waiting to register their protests.

They engaged in a game of rule-book Twister to keep Rangers IN the top league. How do we think they would react at the prospect of losing both. It should also be remembered that the SFA convened extraordinary meetings at FIFA (during the 1996 World Cup) to introduce regulations which prevented cross-border participation in national leagues. Indeed there is a whole story in that episode.

Sadly from my perspective, DD has more or less admitted that Celtic are treading water in Scotland until Rangers have steadied their ship enough to compete and mount a two-pronged attack on the EPL in pursuit of membership. Doesn’t make him a villain, but I like to think that Celtic’s success in the past was a consequence – and not despite – competing with Scottish clubs. I think the notion of putting something back in appears to have been lost.

Given we have all concluded that Rangers will probably remain a financial basket-case for a minimum of another five years, it doesn’t say much about Celtic’s ambition for the game in Scotland, or their willingness to contribute ideas to help grow it.

All that glitters is not EPL – and I wish the people at my club would get that.

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AuldheidPosted on2:28 pm - Oct 1, 2015


BP.
A few things need to change to make watching on stream happen but Kodi is the shape of things to come.

Poltically I can think of no better way to bind the UK than a UK league. 

Austerity drives unbinding  and if that wanes so will the drive.
There will need to be an equalisation of cost to watch regardless of on screen or attending but mores will follow technolgy or be driven by it.

Sure there are hurdles but  they are just bumps on progress road.

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yourhavingalaugh

yourhavingalaughPosted on2:33 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Well ,DD has certainly lit a small fire under the blog,there has been some very good comments made overall that could light other small fires,some points that should be looked into further regards our game,not many on this blog will be burned by DDs comments,it still wrangles with me what his motive for the content and timing ,as for his investment’s I am sure CFC are only a small part of his portfolio and as said ,it is more than an investment to him ,what his reason for  his interview only he knows,but I have an feeling he has spoken to a taxidermist recently who has told him of a request he has been made to ,how do you say this,re- model a taxi for the second time,sly old goat DD.

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tayred

tayredPosted on2:40 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Auldheid, since twas you that raised it. Do you think there is a genuine interest in a UK league? It’s not something I have heard much sympathy for, and thats from both sides of the border. There would be few winners, and many losers in my opinion.

The genuine chance of challenging for honours would be dramatically diluted for almost all Scottish clubs, so why would the majority be interested? Folk baulk at the prces being charged at SPFL games, the costs would rise dramatically if the EPL and SPFL leagues were to merge. Away attendances would plummet – Aberdeen versus Bournemouth of a damp January weekend anyone? Ross County fans fancy the travel to Norwich for a cup game on a Wednesday evening? Financially, the EPL teams (and EChampionship) are so far ahead that ALL of the Scottish clubs would be at a serious disadvantage for several years, so much so that I doubt we would ever recover to a point where any clubs would be EPL status – and yes, I am including Celtic in that. The saving grace for Celtic would be fans numbers and eventual financial clout – but you would still have to entice the players to play for you. Glasgow won’t have the pull of Manchester or London or even Liverpool. I know the SMSM will tell you otherwise, cos every player wanted to play for Celtic or Rangers when they were growing up….

I struggle to see any appeal. We have a long history of Scottish football league. Yeah it has its problems. I think we Scots would be much better off repairing and reinvigorating our own league rather than attempting to fit in with the boys from the South. Fit in is exactly what we would have to do – the negotiating clout would all be with the EPL teams. 

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wee_alpha

wee_alphaPosted on3:02 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Lets be honest here a “UK” league just means the EPL with 2 teams from Scotland in it. I think you can guess which two! The only appealing part is that there would be more competition for the Scottish Premiership title and the in the cup competitions. There is no way the likes of Ross County, Motherwell or anyone else being involved in a UK league. My own thoughts are that if there was ever going to be an expanded league or leagues it would European, so that the big clubs could earn even more money (before it all crashes and burns).

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AuldheidPosted on3:29 pm - Oct 1, 2015


TommyB
The living wage issue had nothing whatsoever to do with the adjournment. It was never part of the discussion that took place.
Does that mean I think Celtic wanted to pursue it?
Never in a month of Sundays, as welcome as a fart in a space suit, but here we are 2 years later and it is still a live issue. I think that justifies the approach we took at the AGM.
When the letter that was sent to SFA was shown to Celtic in April, minds changed. This isn’t a bunch of daft boys the SFA or Celtic are dealing with not that I think you were meaning that but it was a meaning I think I was entitled to take from your post.
Suffice to say we (ie  the guys with the facts)  did not come up the Clyde on a water biscuit.

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AuldheidPosted on3:43 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Wee Alpha
I disagree. I think a club’s intrinsic strength comes from the size of their support base which in turn depends on population. (the OF factor not withstanding) .
Who  cares if the prize is not at the top level as long as it’s meaningful relative to the competition.
My view is we are too parochial and undermine our abilities. In a UK league with a fair distribution of income relative to support base anything is possible.

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on3:55 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Who is this quote from then ? 
“I am sure you will get to the stage sooner or later where team X versus team Y hasn’t got the same appeal to the average fan in the street, whereas Man Utd versus Rangers, Celtic versus Arsenal etc, it is new, it is fresh, it is another level of excitement.
“I am sure any product is always looking to keep it fresh. If you ask any people down south they recognise the potential of clubs such as Celtic and Rangers. There is no doubt about that…”
[Extracted from ET article today.]
========================
Mark Warburton !
Who has the following football management experience;
c.18 months with Brentford
c.4 months in Scottish football so far with TRFC.
Unbelievable.

The DD quote ‘legitimises’, IMO, Warburton’s own input to put TRFC’s side to the ‘move to England’.
The SMSM accepts that Warburton is now fully knowledgeable about Scottish football, its history, significance in the community etc…?
[Or he is simply repeating what he is told ?]

Both should be on a disrepute charge !

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yourhavingalaugh

yourhavingalaughPosted on4:06 pm - Oct 1, 2015


StevieBC
Now let’s try another Manager having his say,eg,John Hughes,hauled over the coals pronto.

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Carfins FinestPosted on4:08 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Once a year Dermott Desmond ‘Jets’ into Scotland to play Golf at St Andrews.And once a year he has a microphone shoved under his nose and asked to pontificate forthwith. Why? This is a major shareholder of the biggest club in the country but he cannot be bothered turning up at his own clubs AGM’s. If Mr Desmond has anything of real importance to discuss then surely that would be the place. Not at the bar of a golf club. Like Dave King, he jets in spews some keech and jets back out again. If we are happy to discard DCK’s utterances as complete nonsense then surely we should treat DD’s words in the same manner. As a Celtic fan I firmly believe that my club are up to their self righteous necks in the shitstorm currently engulfing our game but I would be surprised if old DD has any inclination of the boardroom gymnastics that have taken place over the last 3-4 years. He just takes his money and shuffles off to play another round somewhere else.

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AuldheidPosted on4:15 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Tayred

I think I answered your valid points in response to BP.

There needs to be a leavening  which whilst difficult is not impossible.

If we think its impossible we make it so.

The scenario is a competitive league in every division that you pay the same to watch regardless of how you watch it.

Away games ? Watch how you like. No need to travel.
We are conditioned to the status quo we do not need to be its prisoners.
 

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Big PinkPosted on4:30 pm - Oct 1, 2015


 Once a year Dermott Desmond ‘Jets’ into Scotland to play Golf at St Andrews.And once a year he has a microphone shoved under his nose and asked to pontificate forthwith. Why? This is a major shareholder of the biggest club in the country but he cannot be bothered turning up at his own clubs AGM’s. If Mr Desmond has anything of real importance to discuss then surely that would be the place. Not at the bar of a golf club. Like Dave King, he jets in spews some keech and jets back out again. If we are happy to discard DCK’s utterances as complete nonsense then surely we should treat DD’s words in the same manner. As a Celtic fan I firmly believe that my club are up to their self righteous necks in the shitstorm currently engulfing our game but I would be surprised if old DD has any inclination of the boardroom gymnastics that have taken place over the last 3-4 years. He just takes his money and shuffles off to play another round somewhere else
carfins finest

 

Not usually given to defending Dermot Desmond, but …

Actually, and especially since the great Allan McDonald/Guus Hiddink affair, DD takes a very active part in the club’s affairs.

Nothing will take place without DD’s approval. He is very much the boss and everyone else is paid to see that what he wants happens. I will leave it to the financial types to ascertain if there is actually any money for him to take home but it isn’t fair to say that he doesn’t know what’s going on. He knows every detail.

His relationship with Celtic is a business one though. He’s not really a big enough fan (like Fergus McCann for example) that he would risk a substantial chunk of his wealth, but ownership of a sizeable chunk of Celtic shares will enhance his reputation in Ireland, thus smoothing out lots of business bumps. In that sense, he is more like David Murray (without the hubris and ego) than King

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Barcabhoy

BarcabhoyPosted on5:03 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Re the “move to England”

Not only is it not likely , there is a huge roadblock in the form of highly influential individuals in the EPL who will fight this at every turn. There would have to be a change of executive at the EPL for this to even be a remote possibility.

why Dermott mentioned it ?

No idea . It doesn’t seem to be particularly helpful, and the fact he got his information wrong about Barca and Madrid , suggests elements of it are sketchy.

However, should there be a chance in the future of a UK league, then the owners of Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and other Scottish clubs are likely to be more than enthusiastic for the opportunity to participate. No doubt many fans would feel the same. Why wouldn’t an Aberdeen fan look forward to the opportunity to emulate and exceed the achievements of a Swansea or a Southampton ?

What Dermott said on a UK league was neither helpful or unhelpful with regards to the long term. I do understand the anger at his comments about Rangers returning. I have always taken the position that it is wrong to deprive 10’s of thousands of a club to support. I don’t get involved in new club/ old club . Technically a new club, emotionally the same club is probably how I’d describe it. 

When Rangers play in the top tier then it will add an element that’s been missing . I fully accept that some will abhor their return. I am more concerned by the fact that those guilty of blatant cheating have never been properly challenged and investigated. David Murray was the architect , the sole architect, of all that has happened . 
The SFA are gutless when it comes to his role. That is a disgrace . Regan has abdicated responsibility for an easier life, and that is shameful. Doncaster was the instructing client in the LNS enquiry and in my view he fell way way short of his respinsibilities to all clubs . 

The fact that Rangers have ended up with a criminal as Chairman is yet another consequence of Murray’s behaviour. King should not be allowed anywhere near any Scottish club. Beyond that I see Rangers affairs as a matter for them, I though have zero confidence in the SFA or SPFL to regulate them in a fair and appropriate manner.

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Bill1903

Bill1903Posted on5:22 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Aberdeen fan here with absolutely no interest in playing in an English or UK league.
Never heard an Aberdeen fan like the idea.
Is there an English Football Monitor forum that the Barca’s and Auldheids etc will be moving to?

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)Posted on5:28 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Latest from JohnJames:

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2015/10/01/the-corporate-crime-triangle/

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on5:50 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Messers Ogilvy, Regan & Doncaster were (and are) servants, not masters, of their respective organisations. 
These organizations were so appalled by their rogue conduct that:

  1. Ogilvy was re-elected President unopposed
  2.  Regan got a very nice bonus
  3. Doncaster got a spiffy new job

I am afraid no amount of spin, bluster or obfuscation can change, or hide, that reality.
Th SFA is the clubs, and the clubs are the SFA. The SPFL is the professional clubs and the professional clubs are the SPFL. Just as it was with the SPL & SFL.
Those who seek to lay the blame solely on the shoulders of Ogilvy, Regan & Doncaster are treating Scots Football fans like fools, and I really wish they would knock it off 07

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Kilgore TroutPosted on6:07 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Bill1903 @ 5:22pm

Celtic fan here who wholeheartedly shares your lack of interest.

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on6:15 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Kilgore Trout 1st October 2015 at 6:07 pm #

me three

Also, how many fans will be able to afford to make the journey to Manchester, London or Liverpool,  and vice versa,  every other week?
(Though I should be more realistic and say Oxford, Bristol or Stevenage 03 )

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Barcabhoy

BarcabhoyPosted on6:24 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Scapaflow

1 Ogilvie was unopposed because the rules for standing  for the position excluded just about every viable candidate. Those rules have been relaxed subsequently

2 Regan’s bonus was decided by the remuneration committee, which I think consists of 5 individuals

3 The alternative to Doncaster at the time was David Longmuir. Enough said.

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Kilgore TroutPosted on6:25 pm - Oct 1, 2015


scapaflow

It’s the very idea that doesn’t interest me, regardless of how it would be structured.
To me it would mean being just another act in a sterile, soulless circus.
My team, as I know it, would simply cease to be.

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John ClarkPosted on6:43 pm - Oct 1, 2015


Barcabhoy 1st October 2015 at 5:03 pm #
‘…. I don’t get involved in new club/ old club . Technically a new club, emotionally the same club is probably how I’d describe it. ‘
_________
The mechanism by which Charles Green manged to bully and shove his new 2012 club into Scottish Football was highly dubious’ technically’.But  the fact that the SFL accepted the new club, for disgustingly selfish reasons, might have to be accepted as their ‘prerogative’.
But no authority on earth can get away with allowing that new club to claim to be the same club as the one that ,even as I write, is in Liquidation,dead as a sporting entity, unable to participate in fresh sporting competitions, and therefore unable to add to its history of sporting achievements, even the honestly earned ones.
The new club have what, two titles, is it? THAT is their history, their sporting achievement record to date.
The fans of the old club have merely transferred their affection to a red raw new entity.
THEY  may call it what they will, but the record books must not be allowed to perpetuate a huge impertinent ‘giruy’ to the very idea of honest sporting competition by allowing the new club to claim honours and titles from competitions  which they were not in existence even to participate in, let alone win.
Let’s get that nonsense sorted out, and the gutless/witless/compromised shysters running our game sorted out as well.
And then we can talk meaningfully of Scottish Football, or British football, or television revenue, or more equitable distribution of revenue etc etc.
Desmond clearly wants us all to accept meekly all the cheating that happened on Campbell Ogilvie’s watch, and go on to accept that he can openly air his hopes for a restored ‘duopoly’ , with Celtic walking happily hand in  hand with a new club while pretending it is the ‘Old Firm’.while plans are being made to get that duopoly to desert its homeland.
And that bloody well annoys me.07

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