Amidst the emerging news of great trauma that is allegedly coming TRFC’s way in the near future, it would be prudent for us to keep our eye on the big picture – the one that captures the other clubs in the league playing the role of bystanders, powerless to influence events and unwilling to react .
For what it is worth, my information on the TRFC situation is that the stadium issues being talked about are not critical at this time (although talks have begun with Queens Park and the SFA to secure a lease of Hampden for two years), but that the creditor issues, including tax, national insurance and VAT, are of immediate, growing concern.
In the last few weeks, Celtic, Hibs, the SFA and referees have all been in the Ibrox firing line and subjected to Level 5 penned invective. Their response has been a dignified silence and a refusal to officially engage. Understandable perhaps, but the cowed nature of it is odd – especially given the opportunity it would have afforded for some proper PR retaliation on the part of any of those bodies.
Perhaps the real and most important question is ‘why does everyone stand idly by as this train-wreck heads for buffers’ ?
And the supplementaries;
- If Rangers (IL) did in fact cheat, why on earth would clubs let them away with it?
- Why would they allow the Continuity Myth to become embedded in the first place, emboldening others who might want to trigger an invisible liquidation to dump creditors?
- While we are at it why would those who suffered financially as a consequence go to great lengths themselves (as we have witnessed over Res 12) to ensure that the offenders would never be held to account?
Here’s why. RFC got away with, and TRFC get away with appalling behaviour for one very simple reason; football’s mortal fear of regulation.
A second insolvency event at Ibrox in five years of the first (irrespective of how many clubs you think took part) would draw unwelcome attention to the SFA and SPFL’s failure to run the game honestly and effectively – and would almost certainly attract attention from Holyrood. Therefore it needs to be avoided at all costs.
When TRFC were caterwauling over the cup final report recently, no-one weighed in with counter-arguments because prolonging the debate would have kept it current long enough to possibly colour public attitudes on fan behaviour. Of course this already carried a government threat of the imposition of strict liability on the clubs. Better that those papers should be wrapping fish suppers as soon as possible – not lighting a bonfire under the main stand at Hampden.
RFC get away with appalling behaviour (and so is TRFC), for one very simple reason;
football’s mortal fear of regulation.
It might be worth mentioning the ‘Oops, we misspoke’ moment in the aftermath of the publication of that cup final report and TRFC’s demands that Hibs should suffer sanctions for their fans’ post final whistle behaviour.
They (TRFC) were consequently challenged to put their votes where their mouths were and sign up for strict liability. Oops! – and radio silence broken out.
The fact that the catastrophic failure of Rangers came about as a result of the catastrophic failure the SFA’s self-regulatory processes surrounding player registration – has made it unthinkable that football should admit to those failures.
Football does not want government cattle strewn around the tracks of its gravy train. Goodies in the shape of interest on loans or preference shares, favourable director contracts, tax write-offs, agent kick-backs and bungs are too great, and government intervention is a threatens to divert the train away from its current path.
Unless you are a forensic accountant, perhaps even if you were, I’d be willing to bet you’d have to get very lucky to extract usable information on the cost of shareholder finance from club accounts, or the extent of contracts between clubs and companies associated with club officials.
The very fact that the catastrophic failure of Rangers came about as a result of another catastrophic failure – that of the SFA’s self-regulatory processes surrounding player registration – has made it unthinkable that football should admit to those failures.
Scottish football tolerates bad behaviour of corrupt individuals and organisations because football itself is endemically, culturally corrupt.
There is no question that there is great antipathy towards RFC and TRFC amongst other clubs. They are pariahs within the Scottish game, but not because of any principled stand against or moral outrage at their behaviour. In fact for the most part, football people at the majority of clubs no moral objections whatsoever to the tax avoidance strategies of the Murray era.
Scottish football is mightily pissed off at RFC and TRFC because they went too far, made it inevitable that they would be found out, and exposed everyone else to the possibility of regulation by government.
Of course Murray, Whyte, Green, King and the rest knew all of this, and that knowledge has allowed them to push the envelope as far as they have.
However clumsily and ineptly each of these individuals have gone about their business, they are NOT the real problem. Our major concern should be that for every crime we discover, there are at least a half dozen that we never got wind of, perpetrated by much smarter offenders. Not to mention the enablers at Hampden and boardrooms all over the country who still promote a culture that seeks to cover it all up.
Let me paint a picture for those people whose ideal scenario in this saga is to have Rangers airbrushed from Scottish football history. Even if you were to get your wish, do you really think the corruption in the game would disappear with them? Would sporting integrity finally climb to the top of the priority list?
Of course it would do no such thing. The Rangers implosion gave Scottish football a chance to demonstrate that malpractice was isolated and confined to one club, but their reaction to it was a light-touch approach to governance and regulation, demonstrating fairly conclusively that the cancer has spread way beyond Govan. In fact the authorities and the clubs would once again become bystanders – perhaps some of them may even take to cheer-leading – if the same thing happened again.
That is why those people who run ALL of our clubs are largely unfit to do so. That is why the sport needs to be properly regulated and accountable. And that is why the SFA/SPFL edifice needs to be demolished, the rot dug out, and new structures put in place which are heavily weighted in favour of sporting integrity and consumer interests.
I never thought I would find myself quoting Tony Blair, and I shall probably go straight to hell for doing so, but it is no good just being tough on the crime itself, we need to be even tougher on the causes of the crime.
John Clark
October 19, 2016 at 10:19
Hark! Do I hear the music of Ennio Morricone?
COMPLETELY off topic.
Funny you mentioning Ennio, I recently watched *Once Upon a Time in America, and looked for the music credits at the end and was amazed to find it was Ennio. Not a bit like his trademark spaghetti western style.
*Quick google search and I found the full soundtrack on You Tube
**For Big Pink**
Ennio used the new Fender electric guitar on The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966) main theme..
UPTHEHOOPS
OCTOBER 19, 2016 at 08:12
WOTTPI
OCTOBER 18, 2016 at 22:04
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If an AGM is to be held then signed off accounts would have to be issued? Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Just getting signed off accounts is all they will need…
=============================
IIRC: the original Rangers was due to hold an AGM by 31st December 2011.
In the absence of signed-off accounts, the AGM was delayed by Craigie Bhoy.
Again, IIRC, no audited accounts appeared, and no AGM – as it was overtaken by events in February.
And off the top of my head: aside from making an operational loss again, and ongoing working capital/capex risks – the auditors might also need to have a dignified bun-fight in the Blue Room re: material post-yearend issues ?
wottpi October 19, 2016 at 12:06
I note Hibs are reporting a modest profit in their latest accounts as opposed to posting losses the last few years. Cup success and the good run in the League cup has assisted with income and I understand the future looks good with season ticket sales up this year. Wages to turnover is down to 51% Fans now have 32% ownership through the share issue that brought in additional cash.
I recall Easyjambo provided some commentary in the past with regard to the Hibees ‘internal debt’ situation but on the face of it it looks like the Armageddon myth has received another kick in the baws.
=================================
On the face of it the figures look decent. However, I’d like to see the details of them so that I can make a better assessment.
Their Cup success has clearly made quite a difference, and the share schemes have also helped their cash position. Their internal debt (mortgage to STF) should be down from £5M to around £4.54M at their year end.
I still think that they need to get out of the Championship this time round, otherwise they will return to the red or face cutting costs.
I also wish that they would stop “spinning” the statements the website, though. (I know other clubs do likewise, mine included), e.g. £1.1M from fan share schemes since they were launched, actually equates to £500,000 in the previous financial year (2014/15) and £600,000 in the latest accounting period, of which £400,000 was forthcoming on the last day of the financial year, from who knows whom. The current HSL scheme is only bringing in £200K-£250K a year and a further £1.4M will be required to reach the targeted 51%, so further share issues may well result.
woodsteinOctober 19, 2016 at 13:50
‘..Funny you mentioning Ennio, ..’
________
Just for the avoidance of doubt ( and there’s a younger generation-maybe even two!- who might not have seen th film) I was hearing the music for “The Untouchables” as I was writing my previous post.
John Clark
October 19, 2016 at 16:51
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Ah, Gli Intoccabili, how apt.
ianagainOctober 19, 2016 at 13:32
‘A wee look back to where Jerome first came up in court….’
_______
I think that, for me, that was possibly the most welcome post to appear on this blog!
I feel like that wee bloody machine that has landed on Mars! Like me,it is asking ” is there anybody there?”
Well, I’m here. And I can say that I have at last asked Companies House for some kind of help in my attempts to understand the workings of things that they know more about than I do.
I sent the following email some (astonishingly!) 20 minutes ago. How time flies, when it’s one keyboard depression forward , two back!
“”To enquiries@companies-house.gov.uk Today at 0:38
Dear Companies House,
I was looking this evening at the ‘filing history’ of a company named ” The Rangers Football Club Limited” ( company number SC 425159).
In particular, I was looking at the 18 March 2016 entry ” Full accounts made up to 30 June 2015″.
I clicked on the PDF file link, and read there as follows:
“The Rangers Football Club LimitedAnnual Report and financial statements for the year ended 30 June 2015”
And I read therein the ‘Strategic Report’
That report refers to ‘Rangers Football Club formed in Scotland in 1872…’
Imagine then my confusion!
I, and the worlds of business and football,know that the ‘Rangers Football Club’ that was formed in 1872 ( company number SC004276) was Liquidated in 2012!
How then can ‘The Rangers Football Club Ltd’ ( company number sc425159, incorporated 2012) claim to be issuing to Companies House ,and the market generally, a report as if it were the report of a company of some much longer history ( company number SC004276) that had died the death of Liquidation?
I confess to having been misled by that particular report, and I suspect that many other people have also been misled.
I daresay there will be some kind of explanation.
Could you please tell me what that explanation is?
Yours sincerely
JC
John ClarkOctober 20, 2016 at 01:01
I feel like that wee bloody machine that has landed on Mars! Like me,it is asking ” is there anybody there?”
Well, I’m here. And I can say that I have at last asked Companies House for some kind of help in my attempts to understand the workings of things that they know more about than I do.
I sent the following email some (astonishingly!) 20 minutes ago. How time flies, when it’s one keyboard depression forward , two back!
“”To enquiries@companies-house.gov.uk Today at 0:38
Dear Companies House, I was looking this evening at the ‘filing history’ of a company named ” The Rangers Football Club Limited” ( company number SC 425159).
In particular, I was looking at the 18 March 2016 entry ” Full accounts made up to 30 June 2015″.
I clicked on the PDF file link, and read there as follows:“The Rangers Football Club LimitedAnnual Report and financial statements for the year ended 30 June 2015”And I read therein the ‘Strategic Report’
That report refers to ‘Rangers Football Club formed in Scotland in 1872…’
Imagine then my confusion!
I, and the worlds of business and football,know that the ‘Rangers Football Club’ that was formed in 1872 ( company number SC004276) was Liquidated in 2012!
How then can ‘The Rangers Football Club Ltd’ ( company number sc425159, incorporated 2012) claim to be issuing to Companies House ,and the market generally, a report as if it were the report of a company of some much longer history ( company number SC004276) that had died the death of Liquidation?
I confess to having been misled by that particular report, and I suspect that many other people have also been misled.
I daresay there will be some kind of explanation.
Could you please tell me what that explanation is?
Yours sincerely JC
_____________________________________
Good sleuthing, John, and a question put to Companies House the likes of which I doubt they’ve had before. I expect they’ll just respond by fobbing you off with ‘we are not responsible….please contact the Rangers Football Club secretary for clarification!’
I doubt they, nor the business world, have ever come across a company/business that is so hell bent on publishing a start up date, genuine or fictitious, as this one is at every opportunity, so it’s unlikely that they would check it, or smell a rat if they did notice it. We know why they do it, they want/need to promote the lie, but I doubt Companies House will class it as serious enough to even follow it up, but we know that they have used this falsehood, not only to appease their supporters, but to fool the general public into investing in a new business disguised as a long standing company with a high level of sporting (though much unsporting) success.
Should have added to the above post:
It just shows you, when it suits them (such as when they want to add an aura of longevity to the business), the company is the club, and/or vice versa, the club is the company!
Giving wrong/untruthful information to governing bodies; in that heinous trait, the link between old and new is very strong!
You would also have to ask the question that if Companies House were not particularly bothered that one of their recorded companies was effectively claiming to be another of their black listed former companies , sans debt of course, then what exactly is the point of Companies House?
SmugasOctober 20, 2016 at 10:01
I’d imagine there are quite a few instances of opportunities missed to foil less than honest companies if only a closer examination was made of the documents they lodge with Companies House. The usual underfunding and lack of staff being the obvious excuse, though they will not be the only government departments with that problem/convenience
Add to that an unwillingness to get involved in minor disputes with a ‘Scottish institution’…and the recent example of how well Police Scotland deal with investigations into the goings on at, and by, such a ‘Scottish institution’, would leave many shrugging their shoulders and saying, ‘why bother?’
Good effort JC.
I’m guessing there will be small print somewhere on the CH website which includes a disclaimer that they are not responsible / liable for the accuracy of the submitted forms and content.
However, CH should be responsible for investigating any submissions brought to their attention which contain misleading – or just plain wrong – information. You would think ?
Keep at them JC !
Not football related and definitely OT , but mibbes sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander for knights of the realm ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37715920
“…Scottish Water (SW) have now issued an ultimatum to Rangers. The invoice which was issued 3 months ago, is for a total of £2,280,000 which represents £95,000 per month for a period of two years. If this is not paid in full, the water supply will be terminated within 24 hours. Ibrox and the superstore would be closed immediately. A £2.5m surety would be required prior to any supply being restored. One can now understand why it’s critical that Rangers relocate to Hampden in the very short-term…”
https://johnjamessite.com/
=======================
No idea if the above is 100% correct, [with my highlighting added], but the rest of the article is quite detailed.
If it’s not correct, you would expect the article would be pulled ASAP ?
I’ve just read the JohnJames latest. My gob is well and truly smacked. I find the whole thing very hard to believe, but surely JJ wouldn’t risk publishing it otherwise?
Here is a further extract-
Re the JJ article, surely,as Queens Park own the national stadium, TRFC relocating to Hampden wouldn’t have anything to do with SFA, but would be of interest to SPFL ?
Hello folks, still lurking! I have just read JohnJames blog and Phils. If this farce keeps going, it feels like what I have always believed that the Scottish Government may well be helping in the background?
I feel that any other Company in this situation would be long gone, and The Silence From The Lambs, is almost deafening. What is the problem in telling the truth even if just occasionally.
The majority of people I speak to appear to think I’m obsessed when I mention the current shenanigans! Will the bubble ever burst, or will The Establishment continue to allow this corruption of FOOTBALL to continue?
Frustrated.com
neepheid October 20, 2016 at 18:07
I’ve just read the JohnJames latest. My gob is well and truly smacked. I find the whole thing very hard to believe, but surely JJ wouldn’t risk publishing it otherwise?
===========================
I think that JJ is back in the “pie in the sky” land of economics. A £2.28M bill for two years supply seems way off the liquidity scale even for a business that flushes cash down the drain as regularly as the tides.
A post on this blog just three days ago appeared to give a rational explanation of how water rates are calculated
I would think that an annual bill of £155,000 is much a more realistic figure than a monthly equivalent of £95,000 as JJ suggests.
StevieBC
October 20, 2016 at 17:56
If JJ is correct then he has the biggest scoop on this saga since RTC set up shop. But, surely, surely he must be wrong, at least about the quantum as EJ points out.
Given the apparent short term nature of this latest crisis the next few days should reveal all. My fiver is going on JJ being fed deliberate misinformation but if I am wrong I will gladly doff my cap in apology.
Further to my previous post, I just checked the Scottish Assessors Association website. It appears that Ibrox’s RV was previously assessed as £1.916M in 2010, but was reduced to £1.1M in May-13, which would make the water bills even lower than those suggested by “Call Me Nae Idea”
https://www.saa.gov.uk/search.php?SEARCHED=1&ST=&SEARCH_TERM=150+Edmiston+Drive%2C+glasgow&ASSESSOR_ID=&SEARCH_TABLE=valuation_roll&x=0&y=0&saacookiepolicy=1&DISPLAY_COUNT=10&TYPE_FLAG=C&ORDER_BY=PROPERTY_ADDRESS&H_ORDER_BY=SET+DESC&UARN=L348600150&PPRN=47229888&ASSESSOR_IDX=6&DISPLAY_MODE=FULL_HISTORY#results
As an aside, the first reduction in the RV to £1M was made on 14 June 2012, which was the date of the failure of the CVA and the sale of assets.
Some State Aid at play per chance? 🙂
Tincks, Easy Jambo et al
Call me nae idea bases his quantum on the business electing to purchase their water on a non-metered basis. Perhaps they elected to pay ‘on the meter’ because of the alleged diversion. Or again if they suspect malfeasance Scottish Water may now be able to charge on that basis.
Below is the contact for Scottish Water board. Inform them you will contact your MSP / MP demanding payment is made in full and instantly.
No tax payers money for TRIFC from now on, its totally disgraceful and I believe the SFA are fully aware of everything that is going on at Ibrox.
customer.services@scottishwater.co.uk
The whole thing smacks of poetic justice you might say…
“Water, water, every where, And all the boards did shrink; Water, water, every where, Nor any drop to drink.”
PARTTIMEARAB
OCTOBER 20, 2016 at 19:20
…
The whole thing smacks of poetic justice you might say…
“Water, water, every where, And all the boards did shrink; Water, water, every where, Nor any drop to drink.”
======================================
Mibbees the dignified lot in the Blue Room are needing ‘simply a rest’…and a lack of water would bring a long overdue end to their permanent fire-fighting ?!
It does seem a bit far-fetched, to be honest, but this rumour was floated a while ago, and TRFC hasn’t sunk it yet either.
‘Water’ shambles.
easyJambo October 20, 2016 at 18:57
Further to my previous post, I just checked the Scottish Assessors Association website. It appears that Ibrox’s RV was previously assessed as £1.916M in 2010, but was reduced to £1.1M in May-13, which would make the water bills even lower than those suggested by “Call Me Nae Idea”
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I seem to recall that TRFC successfully appealed its rateable value in 2013 on the basis that it was now a fourth-tier club attracting less crowds etc. The fact that TRFC is now in the premiership should mean that the RV is re-assessed at its former amount. I would not be at all surprised if the club has mislaid the Assessor’s telephone number and is still ‘enjoying’ the lower figure.
easyJamboOctober 20, 2016 at 18:57
‘…As an aside, the first reduction in the RV to £1M was made on 14 June 2012, which was the date of the failure of the CVA and the sale of assets.
Some State Aid at play per chance? ‘
_________
I know you had tongue firmly in cheek, eJ, with the ‘State aid’ quip.
But I was moved to add to my general knowledge as a citizen ( I’ve discovered , like Socrates, that the older I get, the less I know!)
The undated 8-page policy paper at this link http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0047/00475451.pdf is perhaps of interest:
“Scottish Government on Non-Domestic Rating Valuation Appeals System
Para 1 gives the organisation that authored the paper
1.SCDI is an independent membership network that strengthens Scotland‟s competitiveness by influencing Government policies to encourage sustainable economic prosperity.
And Para 3 says:
Businesses across sectors and of all sizes report that the appeals system is too slow. Many find that appeals can take over two years…. ”
The reduction in the Ibrox rateable value that you mention, eJ, was as a result of an appeal ( presumably against the 2010 valuation notice). Murray was no doubt anxious to get a reduction as part of his attempts to sell the club.
The appeal hearing decision seems to have been on 8th Feb 2013, with back-dated effect to June 2012.
By which time, the sale to Whyte had been made ( and Whyte would not have had any interest in the rateable value except in so far as unpaid rates as contributing to the overall debt would be a good thing from an asset-stripper point of view).
‘State aid’ in the form of reduction in rateable value would not have been of any use to him, and in the event, as you say, would have been too late.
(Not for a minute to suggest that you or I would imagine that the City Assessor would have been motivated in the slightest by anything other than the highest professional standards of the Royal Institution of Charterd Surveyors)
EASYJAMBOOCTOBER 20, 2016 at 18:32 5 Votes
neepheid October 20, 2016 at 18:07I’ve just read the JohnJames latest. My gob is well and truly smacked. I find the whole thing very hard to believe, but surely JJ wouldn’t risk publishing it otherwise? ===========================I think that JJ is back in the “pie in the sky” land of economics. A £2.28M bill for two years supply seems way off the liquidity scale even for a business that flushes cash down the drain as regularly as the tides.
A post on this blog just three days ago appeared to give a rational explanation of how water rates are calculated
Call Me Nae Idea October 17, 2016 at 22:29 Evening.I’ve not been on in a long time due to a new job, but I had to post regarding the liquid situation in Govan.Scottish Water supply water through their Business Stream company and it either charges a business for water used by meter readings OR in the case of unmetered businesses the charge is based on the rateable value (Ibrox is currently valued at £1,916,000 (SAA.gov)).Business Stream charge a fixed rate of £157.96 and then £0.03035 per £ of the rateable value per year, so that should be roughly £58,000 for the potable water per annum. The rate for waste water is £178.38 and £0.05092 per £ of rateable value. This should be around £97,000 per annum.In total the water and waste charges would be somewhere around £155,000, so there is the potential for £310k + being due if the story holds any water. Anyway I’m back off to lurk for a bit.I would think that an annual bill of £155,000 is much a more realistic figure than a monthly equivalent of £95,000 as JJ suggests.
————————
Anyone know if they have been selling original 1872 bottled water that comes from a source tapped and originates from a underground water source.water that comes from an underground formation just below ibrox and from which water flows naturally…honest
ok i will get my coat.
It does seem a bit far-fetched, to be honest,
Billy Boyce October 20, 2016 at 20:29 I seem to recall that TRFC successfully appealed its rateable value in 2013 on the basis that it was now a fourth-tier club attracting less crowds etc. The fact that TRFC is now in the premiership should mean that the RV is re-assessed at its former amount. I would not be at all surprised if the club has mislaid the Assessor’s telephone number and is still ‘enjoying’ the lower figure.
============================
Well remembered. It resonates with me now that you mention it.
As you say, you would expect the Council to keep a close watch on such assessment changes over time.
I just can’t believe this water thing is real. I mean, if TRFC/RIFC were going to steal water, surely they would not be stealing holy water?
Mibbees check out TRFC’s arrival at Hampden on Sunday ?
If the team bus arrives, followed by several furniture removal vans carrying everything, [including the kitchen sinks], from Ibrox…then TRFC might be doing a daylight flit !
And if I was a supplier owed money, I would have been up at Ibrox demanding my money long before now.
[Although I wouldn’t have granted credit terms in the first place.]
The Assessor is independent of t’council. The reduction in RV is sensible – I believe that the RV is derived from cost of replacement (accounting for capacity and redundancy) adjusted for age and obsolescence in the property.
The Assessor, though appointed by and paid by the City Council, is a totally independent official. The method of Valuation is freely available on line, and has been agreed by The Scottish Assessor Association and the Valuation Office in England. Quite properly when the Club or Company found themselves playing in a much lower league in 2012 their Rateable Value was reduced. No doubt now that they are playing in a much higher league will give rise to a increase in RV. Have no doubt that the current City Assessor will be well on top of the situation. The City Council has no input or involvement as far as calculation of RV is concerned. Speaking from very personal experience and involvement.
Never fail to be surprised by the events down Govan way but the water story as described by JJ seems too far fetched.
Firstly the figures appear too high.
http://www.edie.net/news/4/Hampden-Park-football-stadium-Scotland-tracks-water-use/
Based on that article and with a rough late night calculation I make Hampden’s annual water consumption to have been charged at around £92k per annum if £40k represents a 35% saving on a previous 15 month figure of £115k
Secondly the reason for the free water is given as a deliberate ploy that has been going on for two years.
As I reminded folks the other day King & Co have only been in post for 18 months.If as claimed an invoice was issued 3 months ago and if investigations have shown any fault was due to the actions of the old board two years ago, do we not think King would have been running to the courts and the papers?
Maybe T’Rangers are behind in their water bills but not by the amounts claimed.
There is a lot of debate over the actual figure that any alleged unpaid water bill at Ibrox would be. However, the current Rangers is prone to issuing statements and denials at the drop of a hat, and a blog read by thousands of people is making detailed, significant allegations about them. Are they really happy to allow this if there is no truth to it? If the story is not true, or does not have an element of truth to it, what organisation would be willing to have their name dragged through the mud in such a way? It is very easy to dismiss blogs as the work of keyboard warriors, who live in a fantasy world, but of course to do this runs the risk of the blog actually being shown to be true at a later point. I have no inside knowledge of what is going on at Ibrox but I do find the silence on this alleged matter very interesting.
Upthehoops
I was thinking along the same lines myself.
This story has been rumbling along for about a week now, and there has been no denial.
Yesterday, the name of Glasgow City Council was added, together with a purported statement from Scottish Water, supposedly to add credence.
Surely , to avoid a loss of credibility in the eyes of its suppliers, TRFC should issue a statement, perhaps in conjunction with the two public bodies, to clarify the situation.
If it is true, Scottish Water will be getting boycotted.
pau1mart1nOctober 21, 2016 at 08:34
‘…If it is true, Scottish Water will be getting boycotted.’
__________
God help us,that would create a stink of a different kind!
I hear the next armed forces jolly is to be a themed day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Si2H479Es
I read it last night on JJs blog, in my opinion his blogs are on a par with Phils and at times his exclusives are just amazing. I believe this to be true as JJs sources seem to be second to none and TRIFC have never issued a writ against him.
JJ doesn’t do hear say, as Phil sometimes does and between them there is no hiding place for the people who cheat, act criminally, underhand deals, and bleed supporters dry.
ZAM1OCTOBER 21, 2016 at 09:35
To be honest Zam I would just keep the heid and continue to listen to the level heads on this site.
Both Phil and JJ appear to have their sources. Both make claims but in terms of the nuclear blast everyone has fallen short over the last four years.
Phil is clever enough to be wary about mentioning figures and outcomes. The term developing story is used a lot and some issues fall away without being heard off again. Of course it may still be a developing story but that tends to be a coverall.
Also Phil at least appears to try and double check some of the financial issues with his ‘man in the city’. When it comes to roofing matters and water consumption I am sure he would try and source an opinion from someone in those fields before making grandiose claims. That is why we have only seen teases of information from Phil.
Happy to be proven wrong but over the past few months JJ appears to have been pushing for donations to his site and seems to be more concerned about getting that big exclusive scoop over the SMSM.
Don’t get me wrong I like some of his stuff, however, as with my earlier post a quick web search appears to indicate that £2.28m in water consumption over two years appears to be “off the radar” for a 50,000 seater stadium when compared to Hampden. If that level of expenditure was transferred pro rata to smaller clubs/grounds then I am sure we would have heard an outcry by now from a whole range of clubs given how that would affect their meger budgets.
Perhaps the £2.28m figure is made up of different elements, maybe fines, who knows but on the face of it, IMHO, there needs to be a lot more information and detail on this one.
As I keep saying I think it is unlikely there will be a nuclear event. The boards run by Wallace and Llambais were no fools. These guys will have known what the current and future expenditure would be along with where problems lay ahead. People like Park and Robertson come across as decent guys who play with a straight bat. They have reputations to protect.
As discussed with Easyjambo the other day the Ibrox accounts may be heading in the right direction if some austerity has been applied.
The operation does however need to be run as a tight ship. Despite increased income from ticket sales this season I guess they will still need some additional investment shortly as I do not believe, given the size of the overall club operations, they will have been able to cut the overall historical operating expenditure significantly and I believe the player wage bill is mostly increasing above previous years published figures. (Big money signings like Barton etc and enhanced packages to existing players, Wallace Tavenier Waghorn etc).
An unexpected cost could indeed pose problems and there may indeed be one coming down the line. However I think it will be a basic cash flow problem allied to being unable to get a credit line from a reputable bank for that pay-day loan should something break that will pose the problem more than the water being shut off or the roofs caving in.
At the end of the day the club is now just like any other in Scotland bar Celtic. It is living hand to mouth and relying on the contributions for fans via ticket and retail sales, contributions to potential funding vehicles like 1872 and from the generosity of individuals.
I am honestly flabbergasted that some folk are willing to believe that rangers FC have a monthly water bill of almost 100K!
I’m sorry, but without some actual documentary evidence to that effect, then you have to label this as “bulls**t”
To just accept these figures at face value is taking gullibility to a whole new level.
Etims has reported earlier this week on the Scottish Water story and today has expanded on it a bit. Apparently it involves other businesses and premises in the area. Perhaps the £2m alluded to is the sum total SW is trying to reclaim, not just Ibrox. It may also include penalties/ interest.
I wouldn’t write it off quite yet.
ZAM1
OCTOBER 21, 2016 at 09:35
========================
Sorry but you must be reading a different blog from me. Some of his stuff is just bunkum, and I say that because I know it’s bunkum first hand, not because I have read different opinions elsewhere.
His grasp of numbers can also be at best suspect, and he often goes for the sensationalist rather than the accurate or even the likely.
“JJ doesn’t do hear say” … I’m afraid JJ does do hearsay. Very much so.
His blog, or at least his reason for doing it is become ever clearer. To illicit payments from people, fair enough I have no issue with that. However his tactic of “If you want me to keep doing this then you have to send me money” is getting really repetitive. Does he do a blog where he doesn’t say that at least twice or three times any more. The problem is that in order to justify the payments he has to keep coming up with more and more “exclusives”, leading to the temptation to post things which are rumour, hearsay, poorly researched or out and out nonsense.
The best source with the regards the corruption in Scottish football and in particular as it involved Rangers was Rangers Tax Case. I could be wrong but I remember no “begging bowl”, or veiled threat that if he/she was not paid then they would no longer supply the information.
people can take JJ’s site or leave it. However they can’t really justify describing it as some sort of bastion of undeniable truth shining a light into the darkness that is Scottish football. It ain’t that, not by a long way.
Oh and for the record, his attempts at what he thinks of as “satire” are actually childish and cringe worthy, not matter what his sock puppets say. There is no biting satire and no “forensic analysis”. Those can be found elsewhere.
CHARLIE_KELLY
OCTOBER 21, 2016 at 11:21
=====================================
Indeed.
Did you know the word gullible has now been removed from the dictionary.
Third post in a row, so I’ll leave it at this, a last comment on the JJ site.
I had a quick look at his latest bit of “biting satire” and see that as part of it he is discussing someone going to a christening, I have no idea why. There is the usual nonsense in order to make it look like it is being written by a knowledgeable sophisticate, a man of the world.
“This bar has a good claim as Covent Garden’s most historic watering hole, and retains much of its traditional charm. Tucked down an alleyway – which was once notorious as the site of bare-knuckle fighting – this is an enormously popular pub, where drinkers have included Dickens, and the 17th-century poet John Dryden.”
Very poetic, a picture in words.
However if one were to look in the Telegraph from 22nd February, an article entitled “London’s best historical pubs: the ultimate tour” one would find.
“This has a good claim as Covent Garden’s most historic watering hole, and retains much of its traditional charm. Tucked down an alleyway – which was once notorious as the site of bare-knuckle fighting – this is an enormously popular pub, where drinkers have included Dickens, and the 17th-century poet John Dryden.”
I’m not saying that is plagiarism (I believe one word has been added), however it is normally considered de rigueur to credit a reference, not to make it look like it is ones own work. Particularly if one is seeking payment for it.
HOMUNCULUSOCTOBER 21, 2016 at 13:08
Indeed. Someone recently posted as well that he has been copying verbatim from Wikipedia. Sophisticate my bahookey!
I read JJ most days and I get the sense that the real purpose of his blog is to assist those on trial for the TRFC con. Only CW remains indicted of any crime.
His articles are Wiki cut and pastes and a rehash of other blogs and info available on the interwebnet. He constantly has the begging bowl out which really grates and raises questions about his motivation.
Rangers water bill is circa £10K a month. Thats a fact.
The last set of management accounts that were on the internet showed an annual budget of £114K . Those accounts show Rangers were being billed for their water.
Given current court cases I have no intention of posting the info, however some long term readers of this site may well remember it when it was initially put into play .
RTC never asked for funding at all. He also never undermined his credibility by writing speculative stuff and claiming it as fact. That’s why the RTC blog was a groundbreaker and attracted many many terrific contributors.
BARCABHOYOCTOBER 21, 2016 at 16:45
I have a post in moderation pointing out a number of issues. (Not sure why it is stuck there)
One being that it would appear, if the internet info is up to date, that the same consultancy deals with both the Celtic and T’Rangers water supplies and the figures mentioned re savings made through good water husbandry again are similar to those you mention and those I have posted re Hampden.
As you say there is info out there that you would expect folks to have a look at before going to ‘print’, be it E-tims JJ or others.
There may be some water supply issues in the south of Glasgow but a pipe running to the nearest church some 550m metres away from the Ibrox Superstore to siphon off free water takes some swallowing.
This ‘back of a cab’ type talk does us Bampots no good whatsoever.
Whatever the truth of it, should this water story turn out to be bunkum (which I suspect it is), JJ’s credibility will match that of KJ’s and his ‘wealth off the radar’ fantasy! On the other hand, I cannot fathom out why he would write something so fantastical if he had no credible source for it, especially as he has been encouraging his readers to go along to the Football Blogging awards to meet him. What a ‘riddy’ it would be if, by the time the event takes place, this exclusive story has been consigned to the level of a….well, KJ blockbuster. Even if none of his readers turn up, including the man himself, Clumps and PMGB will surely note their absence and make referrence to it on twitter.
It is this factor, the inevitable humiliation, that gives me a slight feeling of, hmmm, just maybe…though even then, I’d expect it to turn out he’s added a zero to the true figures.
UPTHEHOOPSOCTOBER 21, 2016 at 07:06 34 Votes
There is a lot of debate over the actual figure that any alleged unpaid water bill at Ibrox would be. However, the current Rangers is prone to issuing statements and denials at the drop of a hat, and a blog read by thousands of people is making detailed, significant allegations about them. Are they really happy to allow this if there is no truth to it? If the story is not true, or does not have an element of truth to it, what organisation would be willing to have their name dragged through the mud in such a way? It is very easy to dismiss blogs as the work of keyboard warriors, who live in a fantasy world, but of course to do this runs the risk of the blog actually being shown to be true at a later point. I have no inside knowledge of what is going on at Ibrox but I do find the silence on this alleged matter very interesting.
———————
Did the ibrox club not say they would get Phils site shut down.They were not happy to allow things to be written by Phil.
was it not something like don’t listen to slurs by an irish blogger that does not live on these shores, or something like that?
If i remember correctly did Phil not say a couple of times he was still waiting on any cease and desist letter telling him to stop,They never issued a writ against him.
it was all just another statement o’clock from them.
WOTTPI
OCTOBER 21, 2016 at 17:07
This ‘back of a cab’ type talk does us Bampots no good whatsoever.
==================================
Indeed, could it be even remotely possible that someone knows this and could have, oh I don’t know, released a “story” specifically designed to make people look silly. This discrediting other things the same people said.
Can I also, whilst I am on, point out to people that ETims is actually to a large extent humour. I don’t always find it funny personally but it is not intended as being serious all of the time.
For example
JOEY BARTON GOES TO THE CINEMADuring his unexpected ( Expected surely? – Ed) time off, Joey Barton has kindly agreed to send us his latest thoughts on what he is watching these days at the Parkhead Forge Cinema.
Cheers Joey!
SUICIDE SQUAD
Q: What do you do when you need to go battle an undefeatable foe?
A: You send for the Suicide Squad!
Its no surprise to this lucky Liverpudlian that this amazing true tale is being nominated for cleaning up at the Oscars next year.
What a story.
Will Smith in excellent make up plays Lee Wallace, the guy with the eye, who has to lead a right bunch of colourful and questionable rogues into battle aginst the formidable Celts in their fortress.
Jared Leto as Niko “What a Joker” Krancjar is amazing despite some make up disasters ( that hair really?) and Andy Halliday, renamed Harley Quinn here is hilarious as the petulant little madame.
The lumbering henchman ( doomed collateral damage!) while not named are clearly based on Phillipe Senderos and what better casting can you ask for. As for the outcome..lets just say the clues in the name!
etc
The water bill figures posted on here seem to be more realistic than figures posted elsewhere. I have no idea if these bills are in arrears, whether there is secret subterranean pipe connections or an improper billing address was used.
But if they are in arrears on these lower figures, does this suggest they are more skinters than suspected?.
Back to football, will MW be without his? 3 marquee signings for sunday’s LC semi final.Barton, Kranjcar,and Senderos.
If celtic win, could this be MW first line of defence, missing three major players
Pipework, water supply and water pressure, the size of pipework from the water mains needed to supply a church and provided enough water pressure compared to the size of pipework needed to supply a 50,000 seat football stadium would be vastly different, If TRFC are not diverting direct from the mains supply then I “posit” that it would be just about impossible to divert enough water with enough water pressure from a building the size of a church to provide the needs of a building the size of Ibrox stadium, i don’t see how this would be possible without someone tampering with the mains supply.
The other thing that has me wondering as to the amounts of money being thrown around, if Ibrox stadium has a water bill of approx £1,140,000 per year how much is the TRFC total water bill when you include Murray Park ?
BARCABHOYOCTOBER 21, 2016 at 16:45 Rangers water bill is circa £10K a month. Thats a fact.
_____________________________________________
I’m happy to accept Barcabhoy’s figure – it now looks like the Scottish Water bill has been pushed to the bottom of the pile for too long and they won’t accept any more excuses and are pushing for immediate payment.
Maybe the conglomerate that is club/company have been fobbing them off with excuses about old meters being inaccurate and delaying payment and that’s why new ones are now installed?
Just my perception?
If the long running rumours are true then it’s only a matter of time before creditors have to take legal action and bring the matter to a head?
Surely we would have had a statement of denial if everything was up to date?
I really don’t understand the venom towards JJ’s site from certain posters on here. It’s almost like a gleeful clique of guys trying to out do each other with negative posts. If you think you can do better create your own sites and obtain your own contacts. I have noticed this over the last 9 months and it has steadily got nastier and nastier. I’m pretty sure JJ won’t lose any sleep over the comments but I can only shake my head. We are all supposed to be on the same side but it seems that ego’s are being stroked. As for asking for funding this site does the same thing, so does it then become a double standard? Concentrate on the real issues and leave the pettiness behind, this is a fine site and it should be above the churlish comments, or why not go over and post on JJ’s site and have a frank discussion and open debate, I’m sure he would be open to it, unlike Phil’s site where if you post anything against the party line it either doesn’t get published or causes him to get all hot and bothered under the collar.
Your’s in sport
Gaun The Killie
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/attempting-a-suitable-accomodation/
1) Phil’s latest article suggesting that RIFC/TRFC is in relatively advanced negotiations about renting Hampden.
If correct: shirley any club wanting to rent Hampden must be acceptable to the majority of senior clubs ?
Hampden is after all, the spiritual home of Scottish football.
Any club allowed to rent the stadium must uphold the best values of Scottish football…you would think ?
If TRFC is allowed to call Hampden ‘home’ – even if only for one season – then the game is well and truly fffff…, erm, busted, IMO.
2) Phil is again confirming that the MD, Stewart Robertson is ‘AWOL’.
]
To me, this is the first tangible validation that the Ibrox dam is teetering on collapse, [i.e. can’t hold back all the water !
Totally agree Killie1962, Homonculus was out of order earlier, made it very personal. Other posters who disagreed with jj did it politely and concentrated on the argument. I tried earlier on to reign things in in a muted way by pointing out that there was another site saying there was a story there. And that we don’t know what the £2m figure consists of.
It is ironic that the very attitude that Homonculus paints jj with is the very attitude he displays himself.
For JJ to claim that the water gate scandal at Ibrox was his exclusive is taking it a bit far, I read about this at least two days before he blogged about it. He does seem to have a tendency to over react to criticism, a trait he continually faults Warburton for.
Personally I would go with the figures banded about on this site as they seem to have been checked against available sources.
I used to frequent JJ’s blog which was largely well researched, but i found he let himself down with vitriolic attacks on the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon and a number of posters that got under his skin including my good self, he offered to debate the contents of a post I made where I found as unnaceptable, his description of a racist attack on an American tourist as “being high jinxed banter” , I refused his generous offer as he has a habit of banning posters like he did with Reiver. His latest threat to physically harm Homunculus being the another example of his thin skinned rant that says more about him than I would ever be able to. I also find his letter to JJ pieces strangely unsettling, having a couple of fictitional characters reigning unadulterated praise on yourself and making ethereal donations makes me question the existence of the Mensch whow seems to think the sUn shints fromantic his proverbial.
I am not in any way a well educated individual having left school before I turned 15 but education does not guarantee good character, does not exclude you from being racist (Donald Findlay) does not stop you being a bully and does not make you right, if you happen to read this JJ, no, I will not be coming on to your site to debate, I have better things to do with my life, must shoot now there is a cludgie needing cleaned out.
RE Killie1962
I agree with you whole heartedly, this site as well as Phil’s ask’s for donations. I do not think anything is wrong with that, the amount of work one puts into these blogs is amazing and we should be congratulating them all.
I believe what JJ says, not because I am “gullible” but because , in my opinion the guy puts a hell of a lot of work and thought into his posts and I believe , has good sources, as does Phil, everyone should be commended, not slagged off.
If you don’t agree with JJ or Phil, fine, but slagging the guy off is bang out of order.
Homunculus – you appear to have severely upset Johnjames his antagonism towards what you say is off the radar stuff. He reminds me of Trump for being a sensitive soul. Well done for telling the truth.
I know that some regard him as a kind of prophet I am with you in finding his faux intellectualism and overblown prose to be irritating and his self regard to be not to my taste.
I hear that you have a white beard now
Re: TRFC renting Hampden. Surely the decision to allow this would require a consensus of the clubs and not merely the nod of a SFA sub committee?
I wonder if anyone has to hand the amount Celtic paid for the rental of Hampden in 1994/5 and what the present day equivalent amount would be with inflation?
James Forrest now running with the water story. Meter installers been working around Ibrox the past few weeks.
Regarding jjs post this evening it was obviously written in rage. The difference is Homonculus was proactive in his character assassination jj was reactive.
Might be coincidence, but assuming this figure is correct, two years of this would be £228k, which is exactly a factor of 10 lower than the figure quoted by JJ. Is it possible that someone has misread the number?
If I was being very cynical…
With so many ‘bad news’ rumours floating about Ibrox just now, there is still one action which could provide a bit of breathing space for TRFC.
If TRFC wins on Sunday then they will have some extra cash inflow, some bragging rights – and mibbees some leverage to extort favours from the Hampden blazers…and especially if the TRFC Board expresses some doubts that TRFC would survive until the League Cup Final kicks off – at the end of November ?
Can’t imagine the SPFL would want to risk scrapping its flagship cup final because one of the teams has gone bust ?
How embarrassing would that be for Doncaster – and also for Regan ?
Only one wee problem though…TRFC has to – somehow – win the game on Sunday…
Billy Boyce October 21, 2016 at 20:58
Re: TRFC renting Hampden. Surely the decision to allow this would require a consensus of the clubs and not merely the nod of a SFA sub committee? I wonder if anyone has to hand the amount Celtic paid for the rental of Hampden in 1994/5 and what the present day equivalent amount would be with inflation?
===================================
Celtic paid £457,000 in respect of their temporary move to Hampden, according to their 1995 accounts.
As a comparison, Hearts were offered the use of Murrayfield for season 2005/06 for an initial £550,000 p.a. plus £50,000 for access to Hospitality facilities during Chris Robinson’s aborted attempt to move the club away from Tynecastle.
Whatever the actual figure of any water bill, if TRFC can’t pay it, they are heading to administration, at the very least, for if they have an unpaid bill to a utility company, we can be sure that it would be one of the last companies that they’d choose not to pay, not one of the first! No need for them (the utility companies) to wait for court action, they just stop the supply and effectively close Ibrox. Then, if the club tries to run off to Hampden, the money they’d need to use to pay the rent would be arrested before they’d kicked a ball within view from Regan’s office.
Folks, as a former civil engineer specialising in water supply and sewage, I can tell you that it would be cheaper to pay a £1m bill than nick water from premises a quarter of a mile away. Certainly water gets taken illegally from time to time, but not on the scale being reported.
It is much more effective – and cheaper- to divert supply from local nodes. Meter tampering is also a possibility. However there is no easy way to hide either method and offenders are usually itinerant businesses who are never heard from again. Much rarer to find abuse amongst household names with nowhere to hide after discovery.
There may be unpaid bills at Ibrox but I’m pretty sure they haven’t been helping themselves to Eau de Mugdock
View Comment
While I believe the story to be total and utter rubbish. From what I have read, the claims are that TRFC used the church’s address as their trading address thus being exempt from water charges, nothing about pipes being laid to get the water.
**For Big Pink** Ennio used the new Fender electric guitar on The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966) main theme..
Don’t think BP would dirty his hands on such an instrument – SG or Les Paul Please!!!!!
Big PinkOctober 21, 2016 at 22:40
What have you heard that makes you so sure?
A lateral thought
Phil sometimes quotes info that suggests a top mgt leak at Sevco He also provides info sometimes that suggests some sort of back channel to Sports Direct
The SDI info may come from the horses mouth given the animosoity that exists within RR
But
I wonder if the other info originates from the current and previous Mgr?
Neither source could be put in the dishonest spivery camp
Or deemed happy with how the business is managed
Unlike some of the people they have to deal with
JIMBO
Regarding the so called assassination of JJ’s character, most of what was said was merely fact stating, it certainly ties in with a copy and paste word for word from a previously written article and not an isolated incident, if you would take your blinkers off you can look back at the numerous spats he’s had with posters on his site where he has spat the dummy out when questioned abut his motives, sources or facts. Rage is a sign of his temperamental outbursts which seem to verge on a bi-polar mind set.
I have no wish to bring the man down, he does some wonderful investigative journalism, he certainly seems to have contacts furnishing him with information most of the nationals should be investigating, it’s just the self gratification that is prevalent on his blogs and the over the top brown nosing comments that sit awkwardly with me, I personally prefer the edge cutting sarcastic wit of the Clumpany and the in depth and less abusive format you get here. As for the £2m plus which according to a later piece he wrote could be significantly more, he is surprisingly way off the mark I may be wrong but if I am look out for me dressed up as an effigy of a traffic cone on top of Wellingtons head.
Oh wow Pat, you say you are not trying to bring the man down then bring up comparisons of Bi polar behavior, really? As I mentioned earlier more than a few posters on this site have been ganging up on him, probably high fiving each other in Cyber Space as they try to out do each of their negative posts on JJ. Then you tell Jimbo to take his blinkers off, last time I checked Jimbo was not being entered into any horse race where he would need blinkers!! If I was constantly being degraded by those posters I would probably get a wee bit defensive too, they feel fine spouting on here but won’t go on to the site and have an honest and open debate putting their reasoning forward, they would get answers without any hassle or derogatory comments.It’s simple, if you don’t agree or think it’s a fantasy just ignore it and move on. It’s notable that there has been no legal action threatened against JJ by The Rangers Football Club as they know he’s spot on with a lot of his stuff and they dare not open up cans of worms. As for his agenda, I cannot read JJ’s mind but I would think that he just want’s his club, The Rangers, to get their house in order and I also think the majority of decent Bears would agree with him, they all want to get back to football and not the rest of the crap that has been going on and is still going on. I really don’t like a lot of Phil’s site as I find it too biased but I don’t try and give him a character assassination !!
Yours In Sport
Gaun The Killie