by Stuart Cosgrove for the Scottish Football Monitor
In the early years of the new millennium, ‘The Battle of the Saints’ was a First Division encounter. Both St Mirren and St Johnstone had been relegated and were among the favourites to return to the spiritually suffocating SPL. Winning the First Division title was a mixed blessing. It provided a football moment that old firm fans could only dream of – an open-top bus round. But victory meant you were back in the SPL, a league that had been shaped for the benefit of the two big clubs.
Television revenues were skewed, there were no play-offs, only one team could be relegated and the voting structures would bring shame to a tin-pot dictatorship. It was a league you could never realistically win and so never fully enjoy. I remember being in the ‘Wee Barrel’ a traditional football boozer near St Mirren’s old Love Street stadium. It was soon after the St Johnstone drug scandal. On 5th January 2001, George O’Boyle and his teammate Kevin Thomas had been sacked following allegations that they had used illegal recreational drugs. They had allegedly been caught taking an “unidentified white powder” at the club’s injured players Christmas Party at That Bar in Perth. The drugs scandal undermined St Johnstone’s much peddled identity as a local family club. A bitter industrial dispute unfolded and widespread dressing-room unrest. The team’s form catastrophically dipped. Inevitably, St Mirren fans were delighted to play host to such a “scandalised” and “drug-addled” club. Football fans relish the misfortune of others with almost satanic glee. So the Buddies cheered sarcastically when any Perth fans went into the Wee Barrel’s less than salubrious pub toilet. They made pantomime sniffing noises interjected with animal impersonations and at times it sounded like a famer’s convention had turned into a massive cocaine bender. I vividly remember that one St Johnstone fan became so enraged that he blurted out the unforgettable phrase ‘Aye but what about Barry Lavety?’ Further back in 1995 the St Mirren striker Lavety had been arrested for using the then ‘designer drug’ ecstasy making him the first footballer of the acid-house generation. In this short, pithy response outside a toilet door in the Wee Barrel, all the gut instincts of football spectatorship came to the surface and all the components of what was later to become known as ‘whataboutery’ were laid bare.
Whataboutery pre-dates the internet but it has been kindled by it. The web has transformed the way we talk and think about football. Suddenly and profoundly new forums for discussing the game quickly followed. Facebook was launched two years later in 2004, Twitter joined the social media firmament in 2006 and by 2012 and Scottish football’s summer of discontent the micro-blogging platform had 500 million active users. The rise of social media invoked an ‘epistemological break’ with previous eras of spectatorship and with other forms of media and communication. For the first time ever, fans had a way of instantly communicating, of answering back and disagreeing with each other in real-time. Whataboutery is a dismal art that can be defined by three often sub-conscious characteristics – a refusal to engage with the question at hand; an attempt to deflect the discussion on to others and a failure to engage with the morality of the subject.
Go on any web forum today and you will find many debates are pock-marked with whataboutery. The financial meltdown of Rangers is the most recent and most virulent example. What about Hearts they owe the taxman? What about Dundee they’ve gone bust twice? What about Leeds, Middlesbrough and Portsmouth? Sadly, the misdemeanours of others is an unstable platform on which to mount a moral defence and celebrating victory in a tax tribunal about complex offshore loan-trusts does not magically airbrush away tax-debt involving VAT and PAYE. Nor does whatboutery explain why already rich footballers should enjoy the moral right to hide behind complex off shore tax schemes, irrespective of their legality. Every football fan at some time in their life has felt a deep primal urge to defend their club. We are emotionally instinctive creatures and quick to play the martyr. But however passionate you are about football – and I would count myself as ‘combustible’ – being loyal to your club does not permit disloyalty or contempt for the institutions of a fair society.
Not surprisingly, the origins of the term whatboutery can be traced back to the sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland. Last year I met the journalist and blogger, Mick Fealty who is one of the driving forces behind the blog forum Slugger O’Toole, a site that has bravely tried to provide a platform for localism and for non-sectarian political discourse in Northern Ireland. It is often cited as the place where the term whataboutery was invented. Taking its lead from Slugger, the online dictionary wikitionary defines whataboutery as “responding to criticism by accusing one’s opponent of similar or worse faults.” Recently, at the height of rioting in Belfast in the aftermath of Belfast city council’s policy shift on flying the union flag, a major local newspaper the Belfast Telegraph said in a trenchant editorial – “For everyone who cares about democracy; who wants an end to sectarian posing and mind games; an end to mindless thuggery; an end to immature reactions to complicated issues; an end to whataboutery ….” An end to sectarian posing and mind games – how refreshing would that be? The recent case of Anthony Stokes is a case in point. Most fans would concede that Stokes is a fool to have associated himself with the Real IRA and criminal elements within the Dublin republican scene. But some fans – believing they were supporting their club and its Irish origins – are hard-wired to romanticism and a re-hashed history. Nothing that Stokes has done is either romantic or historic – it is grubby and pathetic. Nor is deflection acceptable either. Yes of course Andy Goram has associated with some fairly disagreeable characters but that does not absolve Stokes of responsibility. Celtic manager Neil Lennon has been unambiguous about that. Stokes is on a final warning and rightly so. Whataboutery is the glue of entrenched opinion. It cultivates extremes rather than subtleties, and favours glib comment over deeper dialogue. That is why TSFM should always be vigilant about the forum slipping into whatabouterty.
It seems almost banal to say it, but you can be a supporter without being a supplicant. You can be Rangers daft without endorsing morally bereft tax loopholes, you can want Neil Lennon to enjoy a life free from intimidation without defending complicated film investment schemes; you can relish a goal by Garry O’ Connor without admiring his self-defeating lifestyle, you can be a big Jambo but still expect staff to be paid on time, you can be a Red Ultra without having to urinate on videos of Gazza and you can soak up the atmosphere in the Dundee Derry, without cushioning its sectarian associations. And, yes I do know that there was once a dairy behind the goal at the Derry End – but when fights erupted in the 1970s, it wasn’t lactic pasteurisation they were fighting about.
Football fans can be emotionally passionate yet hold on to moral values. We can be vocal without being vacuous. We can be diehard fans without being robotic ideologues for our club. Many of us have found ourselves tied in knots trying to defend our clubs and in some cases defend the indefensible. The roll-call of whatboutery in Scottish football would shame a mature society. There’s defective flat-screen televisions in Manchester; hearses at Celtic Park; programme notes at Montrose; unidentified white powder; porn peddlers in the 1980s, Joanna Lumley’s love-life, urinal-videos in Aberdeen; Leigh Griffith’s unique contribution to fatherhood; Hugh Dallas’s emails; Maurice Edu’s car and Lee Wallace’s air-rifle. They are surreal and seemingly endless.
As new technologies surround us daily, whataboutery has gone digital and online disputes are now frequently backed up by a stream of phone-footage, rogue tweets, photo-shopped imagery and spectacularly desperate analogies. We live in the white-heat of social media where whataboutery goes on ad nauseum and in perpetuity. It is the dismal art of the web and a habit we have to overcome if Scottish football is ever to find a settled democracy. The financial collapse of Rangers has brought us to a cross roads. Unless there is some kind of rapprochement and an ‘appliance of compliance’, then whataboutery will last for many more decades to come. Whataboutery is a defence mechanism which allows fans and the clubs they support to avoid moral responsibility. But it need not be like that. In February 2007, Scottish football was given a simple lesson in how the game could be run if we could look forward. It was a cold and wet night at Fir Park during a midweek Scottish cup tie. St Johnstone’s Jason Scotland was unexpectedly targeted by a small band of racist Motherwell fans. By most reasonable accounts of the events, a gang of right-wing casuals taunted the player with monkey chants. Season tickets were not valid and many fans were not in their regular seats. But within a few minutes, groups of decent Motherwell fans turned on the racists, shouted them down and alerted the police.
Online there was a brief and half-hearted flurry of whataboutery. Some denied it had happened, others said that Jason Scotland was “playing the race card” and a small vocal minority argued it was Airdrie fans. This is an unfamiliar twist on an age old deflection. Blaming phantom support from elsewhere is quite common in Scottish football, although it is usually the demonology of Chelsea, Millwall or England fans that are cast as the mysterious villains.
Whatever the motives of those that posted their defence of Motherwell, the whataboutery was short-lived and brought to a shuddering halt by a simple, prompt and unambiguous apology. In an official club statement, Chairman John Boyle said: “These people should never show their faces at Fir Park again and they have no place in football,” adding “We are utterly appalled by this behaviour by a small group of people who have tarnished the name of our club. We are writing to Jason Scotland and St Johnstone today to apologise for this disgusting behaviour which is totally alien to all of us.”
Motherwell had scripted a blue-print for change. Rather than deflect attention elsewhere or dispute the minutiae of events, clubs, fans and officials have to become “better at being wrong.” When there is a clear injustice, evidence of wrong-doing or powerful proof that mistakes have been made, then it is no longer acceptable to hide from the moral consequences. Apologise and pay the price. That applies equally to all of us and there is no hierarchy of importance. No special cases. The SPL may have a history of gifting privileges but common decency does not.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. This is the second of a trilogy of blogs he has agreed to write for TSFM. The first was about the era of Armageddon. He writes here in a personal capacity.
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 22:22
gazpops says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 20:24
However, what makes this slightly different is that you have a group not only claiming the philosophical territory, but that claim that the physical entity is no different either. The problem with this is that if it is the same physical entity, then they have had a grave misjustice done to them.
If they are the same entity, then they would have a valid grievance about being chucked out of the SPL. If they are the same entity, then the view that the rest of the SPL got together and somehow plotted to get them chucked out must be true.
________________________________________________________________
Rangers were not “chucked out of the SPL”.
They ran out of money, could not pay existing debts, and after failing to agree a CVA with their creditors had to choice but to apply to the courts to have an administrator appointed.
Now BDO are in the process of liquidating the club.
This is a story of gross mismanagment and financial recklessness, with the consequences inevitable.
Nothing to do with anyone “chucking them out of the SPL”.
The opposite is true.
The SFA and SPL did everything to facilitate their continuing presence in the top flight, but failed due to fan power.
Ah!
Those internet bampots.
Now would be the optimum time for BDO to demand a fair price for the assets Charles stole for peanuts.
First time poster not really clued up on stocks and shares but according to this link http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp?shareprice=RFC&share=rangers_int a lot of people selling their shares and not a lot of people buying what happens to these shares that people are selling are they just being offered up for sale and not actually sold until someone actually buys them?
TheBlackKnight TBK@THE_TBK
well that is interesting! It seems Rangers International FC Plc have the trading history of another plc @HMRCgovukhttp://www.investegate.co.uk/CompData.aspx?code=RFC&tab=announcements … …
20mJohn McLean@thehotshot67
@THE_TBK @HMRCgovuk WTF?
19mTheBlackKnight TBK@THE_TBK
@thehotshot67 @HMRCgovuk indeed!
Fact or administrative error?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfa-tell-dundee-united-that-rangers-1496602
I find myself getting even more disenchanted by the day.
Yes, I can revel in my preferred teams success.
I can even live with the infantile ravings from the Soo’ Side, even though I have a strong dislike for everything that they stand for.
But I am at my wits end with the people charged with the governance of our game.
What is the worst thing about this?
My feeling of complete and utter impotence wrt to what is happening to football in this country. We appear hog-tied and unable to make these self serving oafs listen to reason.
I am just another “wee guy”, not a businessman, MP or owt. No clout here but…….
I am scunnert, utterly scunnert.
They don’t even try to hide it any more.
easyJambo says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 10:42
EJ Many thanks for paring things down to what seems a reasonable summation.
As I keep saying the amounts of money are not to be sniffed at. However the costs of running a club the size of T’Rangers with crowds of 40k plus are not to be underestimated.
Any cash in the bank can easily be spent and lets not forget that previous reference to ‘internal debt’.
riddrie says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 10:50
You make my point for me. Without the truth reconciliation is impossible and without a msm who are prepared to print the truth and challenge the lies we are in for more of the same but possibly worse.
For the mind that can admit no wrong there is no wrong.
whullie says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 11:45
There are two aspects at play here. A club who will bend rules to breaking point and (possibly) beyond and a governance system that stands by and allows them.
At some point the Scottish football supporters will have had enough but just how that will translate itself into action is still unclear.
What is aboslutely clear is that the SFA are not fit for whatever purpose they believe they have, and by the way just exactly what is their purpose?
I know what I think it should be but where is it articulated for all to see?
Re previous poster jimlarkin – to clarify my uncle’s ashes are buried at the centre line East Stand thanks to the club and their frequent goodwill to the people of Perth. Yes there is a crematorium next door and the club provide very popular funeral packages thus deriving more income from bereavement per annum than from any individual football club either real or imagined, living or dead. SJFC are having a challenge financially due to cost of playing stafff but thankfully own more land between the ground and crematorium. And I have seen the deeds 🙂
Whullie
entirely agree………
We, as fans, need to decide what we want from our game.
The sevco sideshow is all very amusing, but they are simply fighting for life….human instinct. Whilst we may not agree with it, they are doing what they have to do.
I think we need to re-direct our anger towards
1. Our own clubs
2. the SFL/SPL
3. SFA
It seems there is no allies to be found in the media – they simply want to keep the monthly wage cheque coming in and will cosy up to whichever club/individual/association who will give them a story that will please their readership – they aren’t going to write about the rights and wrongs of the situation
UEFA are not going to do anything as they will regard is as an SFA matter – and the SFA aren’t going to rock their own boat.
I honestly don’t know how we influence the SFA to do anything – as they will only listen to the clubs. Therefore, the fans need to force their own clubs to do something. And that may mean walking away from your own club unless they do something.
I bet there are huge numbers of electrical goods companies, readying themselves for a bidding war to purchase Comet’s goodwill?
What!, You can’t purchase the “goodwill” unless they buy the business or company entity of Comet as a whole?
Sorry, my mistake, stand down Curry’s.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:12
If we can do the ground work now and articulate the changes we want to see and put them to our clubs to put to the SFA then we have a summer deadline that can be set by which time if no action, no SB purchase.
Well, members of the TSFM
Just what is it we want OUR clubs and the SFA to do?
stuartcosgrove says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:09
Ahhh…so you are stating …you have seen the deeds & you know where the bodies are buried..?
Agent Whyte..your BDO handlers await your arrival..your work is done & its now time for you to come in from the cold.
🙂
stuartcosgrove says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:09
So St Johnstone voted against SPL entry for Rangers not because of sporting integrity but to get a shot at the funeral expenses of a deid club.
Shocking! As you would say. 🙂
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:23
Well, members of the TSFM
Just what is it we want OUR clubs and the SFA to do?
————————————–
I have my own ideas that I have drafted but it would be interesting to see what others think. Great minds etc.
@BRTH,
@Stuart
great read!
Hudson (played by the excellent Gordon Jackson) … now that was a guy who had standards.
Whataboutery is defeated by standards. All supporters of all clubs should look at their own club and ask themselves whether they meet the standard expected – the standard expected by the fans of their own clubs. Some Motherwell fans evidently didnae – and were dealt with by their own fans accordingly.
Whataboutery is relativism mixed with a bit of pragmatism – and is clearly a simple race to the bottom. The only standard required is to have plausible and justifiable deniability … along the lines of, ‘we are not due criticism because we are not as bad as [insert chosen example – perceived or actual event]’.
Whataboutery would have seen these same ‘policing’ ‘Well fans turn away and justify this in knowledge that they aren’t quite as bad as some other clubs.
Standards are lines in the sand which must not be crossed – they stand independent of other events or behaviour.
If Downstairs’ Rose had arranged the dinner table in a sub-standard manner, would Hudson have accepted the excuse that their dinner table is set better than the house next door? or that the other servants in the house dont get the same criticism for their untidy doilies? or that many other servants out there are worse than her at setting tables?
No, he would have drawn the line in the sand (not literally, since its a dinner table after all) and re-affirmed the standard required.
What Scottish Football needs is Hudson-ism. Hudson-ism defeats Whataboutery.
>:O)
Merry Christmas
TSFM says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 09:21
Once again in that quaint Little Red Riding Hood way of his, Graham Spiers misses the point completely.
“Much more germane is where he is taking Rangers”
No, much more germane is where Charles Green’s tactics, by stirring up a very unpleasant hornet’s nest, is taking our country.
Yet more “end justifies the means” claptrap. Do they actually read this stuff back to themselves before writing it down?
—————————–
Exactly my thoughts on reading that article TSFM.
It really saddens me that supposedly one of our “better” sports journalists is so selfish, jaded and singular in his outlook that he thinks what happens at The Rangers is more important than all the collateral damage they cause throughout Scottish Football.
This club and their cheerleaders are destroying our national game for their own ends and yet they do not see it or do not care.
I cannot think of three more appropriate initials for this organisation, if their reported inaction in response to The Rangers statement on Dundee United is SFA.
Maybe the rules do not allow for a club’s allocation of income to be withheld, even if that club endorses the boycott of the game by their fans? But I find it extraordinary that statements go unchallenged like:
“Everyone at this club is dismayed at the actions of certain SPL clubs, which were actively engaged in trying to harm Rangers” (Charles Green)
while endless hearings will be set up in response to the latest comments from Kenny Shiels. Yes, comments that an official acted in a “manipulative and devious” manner need to be addressed (whether true or not) but how can an organisation with the word “Authority” in its name claim to have any authority when a series of hostile comments from a member club about others appear to be beyond sanction?
On one level I sometimes think (forgive me for it) that some folk on TSFM are a wee bit obsessed with the are they / aren’t they the same club discussion. If Rangers fans support a club playing in the same colours at Ibrox with the same name, to tell them otherwise appears more in the spirit of Scrooge than the generosity associated with Christmas. If the soul of the club is there, would I want to be told repeatedly it’s not the same club if I was a supporter?
The problems start when thinking that your club is the same club justifies the logic of clubs being “actively engaged in trying to harm Rangers.” Because if it is the same club surely it belongs in the SPL? Indeed Neil Doncaster appeared to endorse such a continuation. So aren’t those evil clubs responsible for their tumble down the Divisions?
The enemy of whataboutery is the truth, consistently, clinically, unemotionally set out with no agenda, no malice, just an intent for clarity that all (or nearly all) can agree to. The truth that when clubs go into liquidation the rules see those clubs die. That the authorities were prepared to apply the rules differently, by enabling special new surgery, a complete club soul and membership transplant to a new corporate entity, to save a club that was too big (for Scottish football commercially they believed) to die.
Had the authorities been open, honest, shown leadership, said this special, unique approach is what we plan to do to give this club a degree of continuity, that we will apply the rules in a way they have never been applied before to preserve the club, if the club had accepted that the price for such a deal was to honestly work their way back up, we wouldn’t be where we are now. Would the sending of a forensic analysis of just how innovative this approach to their liquidation was to every MSM outlet make any difference to the climate now in Scottish football? I don’t know, but it should be attempted because I don’t see why fans who wanted rules applied without fear or favour, who wanted fair treatment for a club that went bust trying to outspend all others, should see a myth perpertuated that we acted in a vindictive way. If the SFA feel so compromised by their conduct and what they agreed to this summer that they cannot stand up for what is right and just in Scottish football, then they need to go. We need a new organisation. Whether it has the word “authority” or not in their name, the only way they will earn it is by being and being seen to be transparent and even handed.
cosmichaggis says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 21:15
CH – your impassioned post should be sent to every club and supporters club in Scotland.
Some great posts yesterday. Thanks
Well that was a year that was,last xmas the Rangers fans where warned that the train set they got for xmas was faulty and the engine driver had no experience of operating such a massive vehicle with so many carriages ,inevitably it came to a grinding halt and was taken to the scrap yard,the carriages where left although in need of upgrading they where operatable , a temporary engine was found and the train got on its way again although it was now way behind schedule,fast forward to xmas 2012 and Santa has brought a new engine ,but with a warning,the carraiges need upgrading and the track further down the line is unsafe and must not be taken at speed ,he has also warned that the train guard must not allow any un-experienced drivers to operate the engine or there will be a disaster of un-repairable proportions ahead ,if they follow his warning he might just bring some new track next xmas and possibly some new carriages.
Merry Xmas
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 10:56
http://www.investegate.co.uk/CompData.aspx?code=RFC&tab=announcements
_______________________________________________________________
I notice that the glossy promotion of the share issue, although mentioning “140 years of History”,
and “World Record” number of league titles won, there is absolutely no mention of recent administration and current liquidation by BDO.
All self inflicted.
Of course it could be that this relevant information might persuade some investors to reach for a shitty barge pole…
1) Urge my club to request an EGM
2) Clarification of NewClub status in the eyes of UEFA & SFA with regard to history & license type
3) Restructure leagues without the ridiculous splits, 1 up, 1 down 2+2 play-offs
4) scrap the SPL, there is no appetite for Scottish football outwith historical old firm past matches beyond Scotland, get rid of tv deals, football back to 3 o’clock Saturday. If you want to see your team go and watch them. Highlights are sufficient (we coped with it for 30 odd years inc competing in Europe)
5) vote of no confidence in ogilvie et al
6) install new SFA President & Chief Executive & Board with a rotating presidency among the board with a fan representative from each league forming an oversight committee
7) install a 3 strikes and you’re out policy for all clubs with respect to bigotry, sectarianism & racism from fans
8) ask SFA to create a fans forum & blog to provide unbiased football news trumping the MSM
Written on my phone without proper thought but I would like to start the ball rolling, and as usual I will be convinced and have my opinions altered by reasoned argument, evidence & reason.
I wait with baited breath for the onslaught, but a ripple starts with a pebble!
Ok, Auldheid
it’s hard to know where to start…..and i’m not about to compose a BRT&H style tomb, so there may be a few of these throughout the day.
1st thing that needs to happen to get the game back on a level footing.
Please ask Cambell Ogilvie to repay his EBT loan in full immediately or step down. He has already admitted he has been unable to do his job for the best part of the last year due to the sevco circus and as such he is a conflicted and impotent tool. Unable to carry out his job and work in the best interests of the wider game.
While we are at it, please ask all Scottish football club directors to declare any financial interest/shareholding in any club other than their own and to dispose of those shares/interest immediately
Demand that the terms of the 5 way agreement are made public and confirm that all of those terms are legal, within the remit of the SFA/UEFA rules and that they have been met by all parties of the agreement.
Taysider says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:45
… …
On one level I sometimes think (forgive me for it) that some folk on TSFM are a wee bit obsessed with the are they / aren’t they the same club discussion … …
——————————
I think I agree with the way you seem to be looking at this Taysider.
I have no truck with fans of Rangers now supporting The Rangers with all the passion of the old club. IMO the fans own the “soul” of any club and if they accept the new club in its place thats for them to decide, not others.
So the new club can carry the same hopes and philisophy, if you will, of the old team. We don’t have the right to take that from anyone.
They can also keep their history in the sense that the old club will still have all this titles and trophies going forward (allowing for any appropriately adjusted changes arising from the illegal player registration investigation). So the old club doesn’t become airburshed from existance – in that sense they have their history.
BUT it needed to be made crystal clear for everyone’s sake that this IS a new club albeit spiritually with the same essence as the old one (if they so wish), but still a new club all the same. That means this particular incarnation of “Rangers” will have a new history starting this year and will appear with its new name on any trophies won going forward, not as “Rangers” that was. The fans can choose (and good for them if they do) to see this as a spiritual continuation of the old club but materially it is a different club and the authorities should have no problem treating it as such.
Reincarnation is a pretty nice word to describe what has happened here.
As for the impact of this might have had on their victim mentality and the aggressive attitude to rest of Scottish Football, we can only speculate that it might have helped.
Apologies to Vforvenacular, fat thumbs on my phone TD you!
I certainly wouldn’t class this as “whitabootery”! It is certainly opinion based in fact….. BANG ON IN MY HUMBLE OPINION!
http://danieloconnel18.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/whats-in-club.html?m=1
Daniel O’Connell
TUESDAY, 18 DECEMBER 2012
What’s In A Club?
There is a weeping, Rangers-shaped sore festering on the body of Scottish football today.
Like a gangrenous digit that should have been long since amputated, The Rangers Football Club has been allowed to infect the game with the stench of corruption and intimidation.
Refusing to take tickets for a Scottish Cup game at Tannadice because of perceived slights to their predecessor club, demanding apologies from clubs like Falkirk, Stirling Albion and Montrose whose fans refuse to recognise them as a club founded in 1872, The Rangers FC certainly looks and acts like Rangers FC.
It could all have been so different, if only the Scottish Football Association had applied its own rules when The Rangers Football Club applied to have the now-defunct Rangers FC’s membership transferred to it.
The SFA claimed at the time that The Rangers Football Club did not need the requisite three years’ worth of audited accounts, on the spurious excuse that it was seeking a transfer of Rangers’ membership, not a new membership.
It was an inconvenient truth that Rangers had not lodged audited accounts for the previous two years either. So inconvenient, it was ignored entirely.
The Rangers Football Club was allowed to join Division 3 when they should have been told to apply for the West of Scotland League.
Having given membership to a body which did not meet their own requirements for membership, the SFA have now allowed this new club to promulgate the myth that they are actually the dead club they replaced.
A fiction has been allowed to grow that in the case of Rangers FC, the “club,” and, “company,” are separate, and that only the company is in liquidation. The club, apparently, carries on, exactly as it did before.
In assessing the accuracy or otherwise of this claim, it is necessary to establish two thing:
1) What, in law, is a, “club?”
2) Given the requirement for holding a UEFA club license for our top-flight team, how do UEFA define a, “club?”
Information on the legal status of clubs in Scotland can be found here:
Clubs must be properly constituted.
They must have written constitutions which set out their purpose, how they will be run, how a committee is elected etc.
It must have a written record of a meeting at which it was decided to form a club, or a Memorandum of Articles of Association.
Clubs must hold at least an Annual General Meeting, and have a mechanism by which meetings can be called by members outside of this.
Finally, clubs must have adequate insurance to cover all of their activities.
If Charles Green’s “Rangers,” was founded in 1872, it should of course be an easy matter for Charles Green to produce records of the club’s agm’s going back to 1872.
He will be able to produce records of the club’s committee members going back to 1872.
He will be able to produce records of the club’s membership lists going back to 1872.
Of course, these will not be records pertaining to Rangers Football Club plc or Rangers Football Club Ltd, because the club and company of course are separate…
We all know Charles Green would be unable to do this, because such records do not exist.
Charles Green’s claim to have purchased Rangers FC (the club) though, rests on his having purchased the business and assets of Rangers Football Club plc.
He bought Ibrox Stadium, Murray Park, the Albion carpark, and the Rangers “brand.”
Clearly, Rangers FC (the club) as defined by Charles Green is NOT a club as defined in Scots law.
UEFA are very clear what a club is.
Article 12.1 of UEFA’s Club Licensing and Fair PlayRegulations states:
“A licence applicant may only be a football club, i.e. a legal entity fully responsible for a football team participating in national and international competitions…”
Under this definition, Charles Green’s, “club” cannot be a football club.
Charles Green’s, “club,” is not a legal entity. It is some real estate and a brand.
The Rangers Football Club Ltd (Charles Green’s “company”) on the other hand DOES fulfil the requirement for a UEFA license of being a, “legal entity fully responsible for a football team.”
Unfortunately, it is also a legal entity which is only some six months old.
The Rangers Football Club Ltd does not at this moment qualify for a UEFA club license, which is why it cannot at this moment compete in UEFA competition, or the SPL.
It does not qualify because it does not yet have the required three years of audited accounts.
When it does meet this requirement, The Rangers Football Club Ltd, as a legal entity fully responsible for a football team, will be able to apply for a UEFA Club License.
It will not though, be a legal entity founded in 1872, with a 140+ year history behind it.
Contrary to misleading reports emanating from STV journalists on twitter, UEFA have not, “confirmed,” that they regard The Rangers Football Club as a continuation of the club formed in 1872.
UEFA does not issues club licenses to the owners of “brands.” They issue club licenses to legal entities responsible for football teams.
Due to a mixture of avarice and cowardice, the SFA has allowed the fiction of the separate club and company to spread.
They have refused to either confirm or deny that they regard The Rangers Football Club as the same club as was formed in 1872.
For the record, none of our “clubs,” have actually been clubs for many years.
They started out as clubs in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, but as the game turned professional our clubs incorporated in order to facilitate the paying of players and protect members from becoming liable for debts incurred.
This means our clubs BECAME companies many years ago and ceased to be “clubs.”
Rangers Football Club was formed in 1872 and incorporated (became a company) in 1899. This year it entered liquidation.
The Rangers Football Club Ltd was formed in May 2012 as Sevco Scotland and purchased the business and assets of Rangers plc. It did not buy a single share in the legal entity that was Rangers Football Club.
With The Rangers Football Club bullying fellow Division 3 clubs who dare to state they are a newco, it is now time the SFA showed some leadership for once and put this argument to bed.
The Rangers Football Club cannot possibly be the club formed on Flesher’s Haugh in 1872 because the “club” and the “company” are one and the same, and the club formed in 1872 is now in liquidation.
Supporters are asked to buy season tickets at the start of every season. That is where our strength lies.
Get a draft written up and demand Ogilvy, Regan and Doncaster leave the roles that they have stated they cannot fulfil. If Clubs don’t listen, don’t buy the season tickets until they do.
It might seem like a long way off until fans are going to be asked to pay out again, but it s not long at all.
Clubs will already be looking at potential revenue for next season. They will base their finances around expected future revenue. If they genuinely feel that revenue is at risk they will listen.
riddrie says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 11:25
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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 22:22
gazpops says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 20:24
However, what makes this slightly different is that you have a group not only claiming the philosophical territory, but that claim that the physical entity is no different either. The problem with this is that if it is the same physical entity, then they have had a grave misjustice done to them.
If they are the same entity, then they would have a valid grievance about being chucked out of the SPL. If they are the same entity, then the view that the rest of the SPL got together and somehow plotted to get them chucked out must be true.
________________________________________________________________
Rangers were not “chucked out of the SPL”.
They ran out of money, could not pay existing debts, and after failing to agree a CVA with their creditors had to choice but to apply to the courts to have an administrator appointed.
Now BDO are in the process of liquidating the club.
This is a story of gross mismanagment and financial recklessness, with the consequences inevitable.
Nothing to do with anyone “chucking them out of the SPL”.
The opposite is true.
The SFA and SPL did everything to facilitate their continuing presence in the top flight, but failed due to fan power.
Ah!
Those internet bampots.
==========================================================================
Tell me, did you actually bother to read the rest of my post, or did you just get to that wee bit and stop? Because, well done – you’ve managed to take the complete opposite of the viewpoint that was actually expressed.
taxlawplebeian says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 13:09
Apologies to Vforvenacular, fat thumbs on my phone TD you!
——————–
I’ve just dried the tears and I think I’ll be ok now 😉
Thanks for the honesty.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:23
Well, members of the TSFM
Just what is it we want OUR clubs and the SFA to do?
___________________________________________
I want office bearers within my club to act, with their counterparts at other clubs to oust these self-serving parasites from Hampden………immediately.
I would like to see a much slimmer, single organistion replace them. The less individuals holding positions of power, the easier it is to spot shenanigans.
It would be better (IMO) if ALL Scottish clubs were included in one league structure that incorporates a regionalised pyramid system.
That would almost certainly mean less money from sponsorship deals but it is a price worth considering to drag our football kicking and screaming in to the 21st century. It would be less money “across the board” so the hit taken by clubs would be relevant.
The argument put forward by staff, fans and sychophants of TRFC that sponsorship will be affected matters not. They need put in their place. If we suffer as a result then that is the way it has to be. We cannot allow them to ride roughshod over everyone else because they wrongly believe we need their pulling power.
We must allow our fear of “social unrest” to sway opinions. We have a police force to deal with that should it arise.
I may be over simplistic here but I believe that what we cannot do is continually bemoan what is happening and not act. Enough is enough.
I commented on RTC some months ago that we had weaponry available to us in the summer in the form of ST’s. We used it successfully. We don’t have that in December. (I got TU’d hugely for it). I still believe that to be the case. Clubs will pay fans lip service if it doesn’t cost them money.
I am at a loss as to how we refocus the attentions of the high heid yins at our clubs but refocus them we must.
A Captain I ain’t but I would make a very good Sergeant.
Footnote. I have a pal who works in the parliament. She says emails get ignored as a matter of course. She also says that letters (the aul’ fashint kind) have to be read, filed and acted upon. If this is true then emails are out.
Taxlawplebian 12:56
Here is the comment subsequently censored by “The Herald” that lead to many heavyweight posters departure from their forum. I think it encapsulates what many feel. It is unedited.
“CLUB WILL CONTINUE TO PLAY ITS PART IN THESE DISCUSSIONS AT THE TOP TABLE OF SCOTTISH FOOTBALL.
With these words Mr. Petrie publicly admits for the first time that a “top table” do indeed run Scottish football. I normally refer to them as an incestuous cabal but hereafter they will be known as the top table. It poses a number of questions which I will give my thoughts on but any other interested poster please feel free to contribute any other questions & answers.
Q1. Why does he openly admit it now?
A1. To reassure the Hibs fans that he is a man of gravitas although he is incompetent at running the club.
Q2. Who sit at the top table with him?
A2. Ralph Topping (SPL Chairman & SFA Board), Neil Doncaster (SPL Chief Executive & PGB Board), Stewart Regan (SFA Board & PGB Board), Campbell Ogilvie (SFA Board & PGB Board) and Celtic FC ((Peter Lawwell (PGB Board) & Eric Riley (SPL Board) ).
Q3. Who sits at the kid’s table next to the top table?
A3. Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen FC) and Michael Johnston (Kilmarnock FC) who both sit on the SPL Board as did Stephen Thompson (Dundee United FC) until he resigned in the huff after Mr. Topping nicknamed him after a character in Wind in the Willows.
Q4. Why is debt burden (anyone know the figures) so important to the top table?
A4. Hibs, Celtic, Dundee United, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen (before a 3 card trick) were 5 of the most indebted clubs in Scotland (the top table has a No crazy foreigners policy) in the summer. 2 of the least indebted, Motherwell & St. Johnstone, left the kid’s table in the summer. It looks like decisions are being made solely on money and the vested debt interests of 5 clubs and not for the football reasons that Motherwell and St. Johnstone wanted to improve Scottish football as a whole.
Q5. Which members of the top table will be sitting on the Reconstruction working party (RWP)?
A5. I don’t know as the names haven’t been made public yet. Hopefully, they will be before the first meeting of the RWP later this month. Surely the fans have the right to know?”
@ Audlheid, NTHM, OF and others
Just like to say I fully support the idea of putting together a list of governance issues that all fans must ask their clubs to take up with SFA.
I particularly like the look of NTHM’s first thoughts on this.
If we get the correct 4 or 5 key points the correct tone then we do not need further specific “demands” rather we try to put the SFA on an even keal and let the correct people appointed get on with the job (once more).
Of course I don’t need to say that its important the issues raised could not be interperated as vindictive or targetting one club in any way, and nor should they. The concern all Scottish fans should have is for the lack of leadership and clarity and good judgement in our national game.
I for one will certainly be happy to take a final draft of our concerns back to forums I frequent to share with my own clubs fans and ask that they serious consider backing this. Having seen the strong voice they found last summer I firmly believe fans of my club and all other scottish clubs have the ability and the willingness to do this.
It might not suit the touchy feely, hands across the divide nature of the debate just now, but for me there are no concessions on oldclub= newclub. To allow the crimes committed against all Scottish clubs, fans and the general public to be a liquidation that doesn’t count is sending the wrong message that Trfc can behave however it likes without recognised punishment. This clubs entitlement mentality caused the free reign that led to its own destruction. For ever and a day this club acted out of its own self interest and bullied every other club and governing body to allow its behaviour to go unchecked. To then see this club die due to its own hubris but be allowed to carry on as its old self but stronger and debt free is not a resolution i could bring myself to be a part of.
Rangers died. The new club can act in the same way if it wants, but it must be recognised as a new club to allow the constant reminder of the consequences of its previous behaviour, otherwise the unchecked victim mentality will grow and a club that has hate as an ethos will become drunk on its own importance and increase its anti social behaviour.
No concessions.
Rangers are no more.
Dont allow a new club to fill that space and assume its ethos.
Hearts fans raising money for the cash-strapped club brought in £3,500 after raffling off ex-manager Paulo Sergio’s cardigan. (Various)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did Charles miss a trick here?
whullie says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 13:16
Whullie, unfortunately I think you’re right, and we are seeing the limitations of the Internet as a medium. It seems especially prevalent where I live that local news stories somehow become more worthy if somebody has a face book page associated with it, or some campaign deserves attention because it got 10,000 likes or whatever, and yet the truth is that because of the ease of access to do that, people think they’ve done their part by simply clicking on a ‘like’ button.
The truth is that the people they are trying to influence know that somebody clicking a button means nothing, and if push comes to shove and they were actually asked to translate that into some sort of real, tangible commitment, they’d run a mile! Therefore they pay no attention.
Case in point – The campaign to build a statue of Tom Weir on the banks of Loch Lomond has a facebook page, and to their credit they’ve gone beyond the ‘Like-this-enough-and-somebody-else-somewhere-might-do-something-about-it’, and are actually fundraising to make this a reality. (BTW – I would urge everyone to do so, as the guy is an icon whose life deserves to be celebrated)
It is time we stepped beyond the comfy confines of this blog, because nothing will change as long as we all sit here and sound off everytime Charlie releases yet another preposterous missive.
Off topic but another sad health story, this time from Barcelona.
Barcelona coach had a tumour removed last year, but has suffered a relapse and has stepped down, according to reports in Spain.
According to reports from Spain, Barcelona coach Tito Vilanova has stepped down from his post after suffering a tumor relapse. The coach had a tumor removed from his parotid gland in ovember last year while working as the Catalan club’s assistant coach. The operation was a success, and Vilanova returned to work with Barca, eventually taking over from Pep Guardiola when he stepped down in April. Spanish television station Cuatro reported that Vilanova had suffered a relapse and had decided to step down with immediate effect. Barcelona have already contacted their first-choice candidate to replace him on a temporary basis for the remainder of the season and are awaiting a decision. The club’s regular Wednesday press conference was cancelled this morning.
Let’s hope that he makes a speedy recovery
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 11:52
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riddrie says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 10:50
You make my point for me. Without the truth reconciliation is impossible and without a msm who are prepared to print the truth and challenge the lies we are in for more of the same but possibly worse.
For the mind that can admit no wrong there is no wrong.
______________________________________________
For any reasonable person it would be hard to argue with the points you make.
My opinion is you are dealing with the unreasonable with respect to the hard core Rangers fan.
What you say about truth and reconciliation is logical, but logic means nothing to the illogical.
rab says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 13:27
No concessions.
Rangers are no more.
————————————————————————————————————–
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/rangers/rangers-are-a-blue-chipper-company-110448n.19718474
Matt Lindsay got it wrong AGAIN I see
Did no-one tell him the last PLC went bust and it’s a NEWCO that listed this morning?
TBK
Good points.
It has been forgotten that the previous 2 years accounts were not published and for that reason – old rangers – were allowed to participate in uefa competitions when they should not have been allowed to, but the sfa applied the emperors new clothes rule, to the emperors new clothes fc based at ibrox.
Anyone else starting to get the feeling that we’ve all been duped and in fact everyone associated with the now defunct Rangers and reincarnated Sevco (I will keep the Sevco name for now as it is an easier point of reference than The Rangers to avoid confusion) have played a blinder?
As excellent as some of the debate and forensic analysis of the significant issues surrounding this sordid chapter by bloggers (AKA “internet bampots”) has been over the last few years, I’m getting the feeling there could have been an orchestrated campaign to manipulate events – aided and abetted by the MSM – to ensure that these resources played the man and not the ball.
The key point in my opinion is whether or not Sevco are now officially regarded as Ranger’s or not. I don’t mean regarded by Rangers fans, rival fans or irrelevant groups like ECA, but by legislative and authoritative bodies like the SFA, UEFA, FIFA & HMRC. Debating issues like the outcome of the FTT, funds raised in the Sevco IPO or the identity of individual investment funds etc. is minor compared to this. “Relegation” to the 3rd division is a sanction I believe the majority of those associated with Rangers would have gladly taken in order to rid themselves of all toxic debt – probably indicated by the level of season ticket uptake and match day attendance levels to date.
Devising an effective mechanism to lobby these bodies for a clear, concise and final statement on the status of Sevco post Rangers liquidation should be the main focus of all decent fans within Scottish football in my view. This would need to be on the scale of the “no to newco” rising witnessed in the summer when it was attempted to shoehorn Sevco into the SPL. Indeed Sevco were subsequently refused entry into the topflight but allowed into the bottom tier. Perhaps this was treating the symptom rather than identifying the root cause. Obtaining an answer to exactly what/ who are Sevco would reduce the significance of all the secondary issues.
stuartcosgrove says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:09
You have my everlasting admiration for being able to share a BBC studio with James Traynor.
I think I would have been physically sick.
I hear the old boy has now left the BBC.
I wonder what has become of him.
I’ll tell you what the Nuclear option is,- yes it has come to this – every supporter in Scotland should boycott his own club for one specific weekend. If this does not trigger action then the next boycott should be for two weekends. You may say this is damaging your own club, well you are right, but if this drastic action is not carried out shortly you will not have a club or a structured league to participate in, it’s as simple as that.
The game will start to disintegrate rapidly, giving the way it is being mismanaged. The ordinary supporter must play his last remaining card, there is no other way. If this option is carried out with discipline it will, I guarantee you, have the desired effect. It’s a classical case of ‘being cruel to be kind’.
Senior 13:56
I agree. If fans want a competitive league structure fair for all then they need to attract publicity.
What you suggest is harsh & unreasonable but what we are up against is harsh & unreasonable. Our clubs have our season ticket money whether we attend or not. The financial hit individually would not be that bad. Desperate times calls for desperate measures so I’m with you on this.
From Money AM London
Stock Market Trades in RIFC
19/12/12 07:49 70.0 214,250 O 72.0 76.0 Sell 0 214,250 0
19/12/12 07:59 74.0 20,000 O 72.0 77.0 Sell 79,356 291,250 0
19/12/12 08:12 73.0 13,103 O 74.0 77.0 Sell 79,356 284,453 0
19/12/12 08:17 75.0 15,000 O 74.0 77.0 Sell 79,356 286,350 0
19/12/12 08:17 75.0 1,306 O 72.0 77.0 Buy 1,306 214,250 0
19/12/12 08:22 73.0 10,000 O 72.0 77.0 Sell 1,306 224,250 0
19/12/12 08:22 72.0 50,000 O 74.0 77.0 Sell 128,530 329,239 0
19/12/12 08:23 75.0 3,000 O 72.0 77.0 Buy 4,306 224,250 0
19/12/12 08:23 75.0 75,000 O 72.0 77.0 Buy 79,306 224,250 0
19/12/12 08:31 74.0 22,000 O 72.0 77.0 Sell 79,306 246,250 0
19/12/12 08:31 74.0 25,000 O 72.0 77.0 Sell 79,306 271,250
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
That`s interesting
We can ignore the Buy /Sell column ……It`s a meaningless computer calculation reflecting when the deal is put through the system not when the deal is done
Meaning “Buys” can be reported as “Sells” and vice versa
We have
214250 shares traded at 70p at a cost of around £150000
followed by
214406 traded at an average of 74p in the first half hour at a cost of around £173,000
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This looks like a Day Trader got in and out in 30 minutes making a profit of £23k
Easy money if you have figured what the opening Bid/ Offer prices are likely to be…….
Mmmmm……….
Now who had at least 214,000 shares up for sale at 70p yesterday?
jimlarkin Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 13:50
Lest we forget Jim ….less we forget ….. unless we forget….. I for one will never forget!
Further, I would suggest a weekend at the end of January so as to allow time for the clubs to respond and secondly allow us bampots the time to mobilise – it is our last chance of saving our great game. If every member on this forum were to contact every person they know and every fan-site they have addresses for I think it would make the clubs sit up/ jump up and take notice!
I would anticipate this idea gathering momentum as every decent fan in the country is fed up and feels utterly helpless and frustrated at this detestable corruption.
It is so barefaced, as someone said earlier, that they have even given up on trying to hide it. ARE WE REAL FANS OF THE GAME OR NOT?
We can either boycott in a disciplined way or just watch the slow drift away of fans, never to return, which now seems inevitable.
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 13:13
“Tell me, did you actually bother to read the rest of my post, or did you just get to that wee bit and stop? Because, well done – you’ve managed to take the complete opposite of the viewpoint that was actually expressed.”
___________________________________________________________________________
Don’t know why you’re getting your feathers ruffled.
I didn’t express any opinion of your post at all, I just felt it was worth reiterating exactly what actually had happened to Rangers rather than Rangers fans bastardised version which is all we seem to hear about.
Even if we do know its nonsense, it does wear you down constantly reading about it.
We all need a wee reminder of what actually happened from time to time.
Just to get things in perspective.
A question for someone who knows something about share trading and finance.
There have been a couple of trades on the AIM today of 1 share in RIFC (or should that be ROFL?).
Why would anyone buy or sell 1 share? Surely the trading costs will make it meaningless?
Re what our clubs should be asking for – A full scale public enquiry into all of Scottish Football (including fan behaviour) with a remit to make proposals for restructuring at every level chaired by a judge from outside Scotland and paid for by SFA/SPL/SFL.
malcontent@12.23
clear out the corruption at the top .
Senior says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 14:23
13 0 Rate This
Further, I would suggest a weekend at the end of January so as to allow time for the clubs to respond and secondly allow us bampots the time to mobilise – it is our last chance of saving our great game. If every member on this forum were to contact every person they know and every fan-site they have addresses for I think it would make the clubs sit up/ jump up and take notice!
I would anticipate this idea gathering momentum as every decent fan in the country is fed up and feels utterly helpless and frustrated at this detestable corruption.
It is so barefaced, as someone said earlier, that they have even given up on trying to hide it. ARE WE REAL FANS OF THE GAME OR NOT?
———–
A note of caution might be: ensure that this is not perceived solely as an anti-TRFC happening. The miserable governance that has allowed things to occur as they have should be the main thrust, I would think. If it can possibly be interpreted as another round of Sevco bashing carried out by ‘Rangers haters’, it will be by some in the media. CG might also just be able to use something like this to his advantage, if it’s done the wrong way
goosygoosy
That`s interesting
We can ignore the Buy /Sell column ……It`s a meaningless computer calculation reflecting when the deal is put through the system not when the deal is done
Meaning “Buys” can be reported as “Sells” and vice versa
We have
214250 shares traded at 70p at a cost of around £150000
followed by
214406 traded at an average of 74p in the first half hour at a cost of around £173,000
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This looks like a Day Trader got in and out in 30 minutes making a profit of £23k
Easy money if you have figured what the opening Bid/ Offer prices are likely to be…….
Mmmmm……….
Now who had at least 214,000 shares up for sale at 70p yesterday?
———————————————————————————————————————
erm…i don’t know – who d’ye reckon?
what i can’t understand is – my shares in celtic are deemed to be “worth” less than half of what sevco’s are valued at.
how can that be?
surely as shareholders, it is our duty and the boards duty to do what is best for “the company”.
so will we be filing for administration/liquidation asap?
works for other “companies” to phoenix and get away with it – no qiestions asked by any legal eagles anywhere!
[or if you can write off losses from one share ownership to another – whay wasn’t the celtic shareholders informed.
we could have bought a majority share in sevco to write off the tax liability, then we could have
“transferred” the “cup winners cup” to celtic’s history.
how cool would that have been. able to say we won the european cup and
… the cup winners cup….we bought it !
DP
totally agree, this is (or should NOT) be a Rangers witch hunt.
However, there are some issues concerning the Newco that need to be addressed and calrified as a matter of urgency – the response to these questions will no doubt lead to further issues with the governance of the game
I am working on a list (as I believe Auldheid is as well) of short and long term issues that i think need to be addressed and i’ll share it later today/tomorrow depending on when it gets finished
Many issues will be as a direct response to what has happened with Newco and will therefore appear to relate to them
But as well as the immediate issues around the SFA’s handling of this situation, there will also be longer term issues that aren’t specific to the newco situation
i simply don’t see how we can look to move on with addressing the issues without having some calrity on the newco situation
Danish 15:20
I agree. If the thrust is corruption in our game, then we must concentrate on that without fuelling other fires.
For example, The President of the SFA freely admits he is in an untenable position. In the Professions, the merest hint of conflict is enough to withdraw. While I accept this position is not among the professions, it carries the gravitas of the professions & with it, a fair amount of public money. Therefore why has he not done the honourable thing & resigned & why has he been allowed to stay ?
Cite that example before moving on to lesser lights & the various failures to carry out duty within their ranks. Cite the 5 way agreement. It must be published before customers can be persuaded to spend further monies. Cite the supporters without whom you have no business. Cite enough is enough & cosy agreements will not be tolerated any more. The bottom line is the fans, all fans, hold the key ace that can be played.
Senior is correct. Muster, organise & attack. If not, any reconstruction will be predicated by the financial needs of 5 clubs to the detriment of the rest. If that happens, the drift away will continue & with it, our national sport.
To avoid doubt, I carry a passion for one of the 5 clubs mentioned above. This is an irrelevance when the bigger picture illuminates the stark need for fan consulted change.
Well said rapscallion 😉
Btw, sympathy for Montrose and the DR reports it!
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sports-hotline-december-19-2012-1496427
Actually I felt Auldheid’s central point about admission of truth being an essential prerequisite for reconciliation was apt and pertinent.
It is when we have a refusal to accept the truth, a refusal to even acknowledge truth and an attempt to reinterpret the truth to suit a poisoned aganda, and when those charged with maintaining truth and order acquiesce and facilitate the liars with every ounce of their fibre whilst being simultaneously traduced at every turn by those same whom they have saved through lies and distortion and cheating then we have really entered Wonderland.
The whole thing is nauseating; only a complete collapse of Scottish football and all of its member clubs seems to be a fate remotely approaching justice here. My contempt for all clubs – and I do mean all – is absolute in this. they have allowed this to happen in their name – many have actively processed it and none has used its voice or its vote to condemn this entire process in any way.
I fear we are not having Armageddon in Scottish football – i for one would welcome it as just and proper!
ordinaryfan says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:12
I bet there are huge numbers of electrical goods companies, readying themselves for a bidding war to purchase Comet’s goodwill?
What!, You can’t purchase the “goodwill” unless they buy the business or company entity of Comet as a whole?
Sorry, my mistake, stand down Curry’s.
======================================================================
I’m sure someone posted up how the sale proceeds were allocated in the sale and purchase agreement. From memory I think Green & Co paid £1 for the goodwill.
Is this not the 5 way agreement.
Joint Statement
Joint statement on behalf of The Scottish FA, The Scottish Premier League, The Scottish Football League and Sevco Scotland Ltd.
We are pleased to confirm that agreement has been reached on all outstanding points relating to the transfer of the Scottish FA membership between Rangers FC (In Administration), and Sevco Scotland Ltd, who will be the new owners of The Rangers Football Club.
A conditional membership will be issued to Sevco Scotland Ltd today, allowing Sunday’s Ramsdens Cup tie against Brechin City to go ahead.
Following the completion of all legal documentation, the Scottish Premier League will conduct the formal transfer of the league share between RFC (IA) and Dundee FC on no later than Friday 3rd August 2012. At this point, the transfer of Scottish FA membership will be complete.
Key points:
– The Scottish FA has received all necessary information and documentation from Sevco Scotland Ltd, including details of the company structure, shareholders, financial projections and business plan.
– Sevco Scotland Ltd has agreed to accept all conditions relating to RFC (IA)’s charges of bringing the game into disrepute, namely the 12-month transfer embargo, beginning at 0.01a.m on 1st September 2012, and payment of all outstanding fines and costs.
– Sevco Scotland Ltd has agreed to settle all outstanding football debts to other members of the Scottish FA plus clubs under the jurisdiction of other Football Associations.
– The Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League have reached agreement on the purchase of a package of broadcasting rights which will allow the former to include The Rangers FC matches in contracts with broadcast partners.
– The Scottish Premier League has reserved its position in relation to the on-going investigation into EBTs.
Stewart Regan, Chief Executive of the Scottish FA: “We are pleased for everyone involved in this process, and indeed the whole of Scottish football, that a conclusion has been reached.
“There were a number of complex and challenging issues involved but, primarily, the Scottish FA had to be satisfied that the new owners of Rangers would operate in the best interests of the club, its fans and Scottish football in general.
“We have reached agreement on all terms and conditions attached to the transfer of membership and are able to grant conditional membership, ahead of the formal transfer of the SPL share a week today. This will allow the season to kick-off as planned this weekend and I am sure there will be many who will join me in welcoming the start of the new football season in Scotland.
“This has been a difficult period for Scottish football, but with this agreement now in place, and with the new season upon us, it is essential that we all focus our energies on football once again. In the months ahead, the Scottish FA will resume discussions on the subject of league reconstruction. We remain committed to this process in order to re-energise the national game and will work closely with the SPL, SFL and all other relevant affiliated bodies to provide a dynamic product appealing to our supporters.”
Charles Green, Chief Executive of The Rangers Football Club, said “The agreement signed today allows Rangers to be granted membership by the SFA and finally enables the Club to move forward.
“The Board, the Manager and senior executives have been working tirelessly over the last few weeks to secure the future of the Club and today is the start of that process.
“The Board has had to take some very difficult decisions to gain SFA membership, including accepting the delayed transfer ban and paying outstanding financial penalties. But we are now able to get back to playing football and plan for the new season, starting this Sunday with our match against Brechin.
“There remains, however, an outstanding issue with the SPL regarding EBTs. As we have proved in the last couple of months we will stand up to any challenges that face Rangers and will continue to fight for the Club’s best interests.”
Neil Doncaster, Chief Executive of the SPL: “We are pleased to have reached an agreement with the parties concerned. Discussions will now continue with our broadcast partners and we expect to be in a position to make a further announcement next week on broadcasting rights and the on-going EBT investigation.”
Jim Ballantyne, President of the SFL: “Current events have thrown up some serious challenges to Scottish football and the SFL has played its part in trying to navigate through to a solution in difficult circumstances.
“I am now looking forward to doing what we are actually here to do. To play football.”
taxlawplebeian says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 12:56
50 0 Rate This
1) Urge my club to request an EGM
2) Clarification of NewClub status in the eyes of UEFA & SFA with regard to history & license type
3) Restructure leagues without the ridiculous splits, 1 up, 1 down 2+2 play-offs
4) scrap the SPL, there is no appetite for Scottish football outwith historical old firm past matches beyond Scotland, get rid of tv deals, football back to 3 o’clock Saturday. If you want to see your team go and watch them. Highlights are sufficient (we coped with it for 30 odd years inc competing in Europe)
5) vote of no confidence in ogilvie et al
6) install new SFA President & Chief Executive & Board with a rotating presidency among the board with a fan representative from each league forming an oversight committee
7) install a 3 strikes and you’re out policy for all clubs with respect to bigotry, sectarianism & racism from fans
8) ask SFA to create a fans forum & blog to provide unbiased football news trumping the MSM
————————————————————————————————————————
9) Fairer price for product through the turnstiles.
10) Have option of terracing (like Germany)
Just heard on SKY stock market today state that Sevco shares are worth 76.05p. An increase of 1.05p .
Can somebody please explain.
Danish 15:45,
If we continue to allow arrogance & indifference to flourish, both will flourish. Our own indifference will be tantamount to sweeping the various problems under the oft used camouflage carpet. This is why I support Senior in his assertion that if we do nothing, nothing is what we will get. I will lend my time to any effort for the good of all Scottish Football.
Fair play to the “Record” for it’s opening remark. From my view, Montrose were absolutely correct to publish the truth. The consequential dummy spit & huge over hype an indication spin abused to it’s worst. More importantly, if telling the truth becomes an offence, then we have far bigger problems to worry about than the peddling myths of some.
I get the club is in your heart argument the same way as I get Santa. But if we are going to deal in truth & fact…
I posted some time ago that what is required is a boycott of the press.
Pick a weekend and a specific paper, notify every supporter’s website, supporters associations, and fanzine that we can find and ask them for their support but most importantly let the paper itself know what is coming.
Let them know that ALL fans of every other club in Scotland are sick of the intimidation and blatant corruption now taking place in our national sport.
A reasonable letter stating the opposite (in other words reality) view to the current lies printed on a daily basis should also be supplied stating what liquidation means, although I pretty sure they already know, a copy from the London Stock Exchange delisting of the original club and a request for journalists to ask the SFA to publish the five way agreement in full and confirm the status of ‘The Rangers’.
If this reasonable letter is not printed IN FULL then a boycott of the said paper will take place on a specified weekend.
This can be repeated on a monthly basis picking on a new title every month.
If this does still not work then letters should start going to the individual clubs in March letting them know that another season ticket boycott will occur if this repugnant situation is not resolved and the upstart club not put in its place by the governing body.
It is for the SFA to resolve this situation to prevent the smaller clubs, one by one, being intimidated and bullied by people who are beyond the pale that are actively encouraged by the board and management of the new club.
This situation will get worse and, when the new club does eventually return to the SPL, the league will explode in violence at virtually every ground they visit due to the wanton negligence of the media in Scotland and insidious corruption at the core of our sport.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 15:32
2 0 Rate This
DP
totally agree, this is (or should NOT) be a Rangers witch hunt … i simply don’t see how we can look to move on with addressing the issues without having some calrity on the newco situation
———
Yes NTHM, the TRFC situation will have to come into focus since it’s pretty central. It’s all about presentation. But I believe there should be no pussyfooting around sacred cows (nice image otherwise).
Stuart Cosgrove says…
Stuart, I absolutely agree with your point that two Rangers effectively exist side by side. The brand new shiny legal club a la sevco that formally competes and the ethereal brand of their club that the fans (of all persuasions) cling to. It would have been perfectly simple for the powers that be to distinguish between the two, but I can only assume their reasons for not doing so – to avoid offending either side (believe what you want to believe) thus keeping up attendances across all the leagues and interest, however fragile.
In yet another desparate attempt to draw a line under this unwinnable arguement I made the same decision as yourself – to believe what I wanted to believe – as I simply couldn’t see how it made any material difference (albeit I am fortunate enough to be able to say that as a non creditor of the old club right enough!).
One aspect however remains troubling if I am to take this seasonably relaxed position. I refer of course to the 5 way agreement. For Doncaster/Regan to say “OK you’re really a new club hence the dubious membership transfer, the non penalty for continuing in administration, first round of the cup etc etc” whilst simulateneously saying to the blue masses (and I’ll say again, attendance-wise, the impressive blue masses) “here you go here’s your history, enjoy” there was and remains one issue – that of contract declaration – that has still to be addressed. Yes, I accept it has still to be proven, but to use Brenda (I think) burglar analogy the guy in the stripey jersey and mask has been spotted coming out of the window with a thing that “prima facie” looks suspicously like somebody else’s TV. At some point a distinction is going to have to be made as to whether:
a/ the guy can walk away cos he’s a different person now to when he was caught? [[[The obvious defence for a newco but one that they themselves allegedly countermanded by signing the infamous agreement]]]
b/ has to give the tele back as he accepts he’s caught and to claim he was somebody else would surely be ludicrous? [[[not the worst punishment for a burglar caught red handed I’m sure you’d agree, in fact why run away, it allows you to stay the person you always were, its just that apparently you’ve become very fond of the collection of tele’s you’ve stock piled]]]
or c/ a meaningful punishment for being caught is actually going to be applied with, as above, the newco arguement countermanded by the 5 way agreement.
It strikes me that both sides seem to have taken the short sighted view that to not distribute the detail of the agreement has served both sides very well; it allows each to believe what they want to believe. At some point however there is still a collared guy in an stripey jersey expecting, in fact demanding to be dealt with.
For something that could have been dealt with fairly easily on February 15th last year resolution may yet bring the much anticipated armageddon to the fore.
Chat from ftalphaville.ft.com with thanks to Clydebank Bhoy on KDS.
The interesting stuff starts at 11:38pm
ftalphaville.ft.com/marketslive/2012-12-19/
Report anthrax | December 19 11:38am | Permalink
The FT couldn`t afford the bandwidth
Report TheLeggie | December 19 11:38am | Permalink
Glad to see you have named and shamed the Rangers “institutions”- they should all be flogged
Report The Limey | December 19 11:38am | Permalink
@BE – I wonder whether they include payments into EBTs within that 33% figure given claim in tax case that they weren’t wages!
Report muppet central | December 19 11:39am | Permalink
leggie, you can put their names forward in our new competiton
Report RuminationsOn | December 19 11:40am | Permalink
@BE because Hibs and Hearts supporters are so much politer
Report TheLeggie | December 19 11:40am | Permalink
@mc- whos money are they playing Rangers with- bet its not their own
Report muppet central | December 19 11:40am | Permalink
of course not
Report Baz | December 19 11:41am | Permalink
the Rangers stuff is mad, make ocado and supergroup look like vodafone
SHORT
Report SoS | December 19 11:41am | Permalink
how many football clubs pay divis?
Report Nobby | December 19 11:42am | Permalink
@SoS – the Glazers get one…
Report RuminationsOn | December 19 11:42am | Permalink
are so you play on left side of midfield
Report Baz | December 19 11:42am | Permalink
They wont get a chance at Champions League for 3 years and by that stage they will have to go through three qualifiers against the likes of Arsenal to get near
Report SoS | December 19 11:42am | Permalink
@Nobby lol
Report john.e | December 19 11:42am | Permalink
It reads like the prospectus for the ‘Great South Sea Company’ itself.
Report titleist 3 | December 19 11:43am | Permalink
were all of Rangers previous debts just written off ?
Report Soundbuy | December 19 11:43am | Permalink
Afren -Geoff Foster (Mail) – revived bid talk yesterday – how many times this yr…..one day Rodney…..one day…..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Report Nobby | December 19 11:43am | Permalink
“for carrying out an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is”
Report Baz | December 19 11:44am | Permalink
teh more worrying thing about Rangers is how something that is based on spurious financial projections can get a listing on AIM
Report muppet central | December 19 11:44am | Permalink
Mo, you have not asked about BG yet. Are you not well?
Report titleist 3 | December 19 11:45am | Permalink
thnks Bryce ..surprised the ground & other facilities were not seized.
Report Mo again | December 19 11:45am | Permalink
sorry I haven’t touched BG today, struggling to retain an interest in this market at the moment
Report TheLeggie | December 19 11:45am | Permalink
@Baz- yes- it tarnishes AIM and it will do so when they pull the plug again in 2/3 years time
Report muppet central | December 19 11:46am | Permalink
mo, ok doke.
Here we go again a warchest for Sevco
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/616522573?-11344:801
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/single/?p=11934899&t=8748656
Sorry two things in addition to my post above that I meant to add.
1/ 5 way agreement i.e. newco’s culpability for any ol;dco contract offences is the outstanding issue just now, but might yet take second place in April May when the 3rd division’s resident engraver phones up and asks “the question”
2/ And to be clear this is not the much vaunted obsession. I remain a little miffed at the quantity of my own hard earned EBT that I have spent following my diddy team that was apparently striving to meet all the rules, not just those that took their fancy.
Oh for an edit button from Santa
Thanks Stuart for your contribution to TSFM,
I really enjoyed reading your input. Sadly though whataboutery isn’t exclusive to fans forums but is also widespread in the mainstream media and according to the MSM also acceptable for club chairmen. For example Charlie Greens “whataboutery the dundee utd did to us”, whataboutery. A very sad reflection that the view of not supporting footballing events, the base of football survival, is condoned by the MSM. And the defence of this boycotting is “whataboutery”.
Shameful.
Kudos to you Stuart, a ray of sunshine in an otherwise dull press
In view of the fact that the SFA will not stand up to Charles Green and the fact that the MSM regurgitate every utterance as truth I see only one way forward for Scottish Football. Firstly. It is the responsibility of EVERY chairman in the SPL to show solidarity with S Thomson at Dundee Utd. Your club could be next on the hitlist.
The Chairmen of all SPL Clubs must start to challenge Mr Green each and every time he makes false statements in the press. A simple ‘He is not quite telling the truth’ would suffice. Force the MSM to print an alternative view. Dont be shy when challenging the acts or statements from Sevco as you have the full 100% backing of your fans. We are all sick to death of the inaction of the SFA so maybe when we get chairmen of other clubs standing up against lies and untruths we can force the hand of the SFA. Seek to confront Charles Green for his statements and actions and the SFA will have to get involved. Once again the future of our game lies in the hands of the fans. Ensure that your Chairman knows that you want them to challenge Sevco when necessary and we can draw out a reaction from the governing body. Only then will we get to the bottom of, and rid the country of, the corruption that has infested our game for decades.
justshatered says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 16:03
It is for the SFA to resolve this situation to prevent the smaller clubs, one by one, being intimidated and bullied by people who are beyond the pale that are actively encouraged by the board and management of the new club.
This situation will get worse and, when the new club does eventually return to the SPL, the league will explode in violence at virtually every ground they visit due to the wanton negligence of the media in Scotland and insidious corruption at the core of our sport.
========================================================================
Hear what you say but my guess is that the smaller clubs are just happy to take what cash is available as T’Rangers pass through the lower leagues and then wave them farewell with a smile while saying good riddance through their gritted teeth. The smaller clubs can then get on with the peaceful life they have enjoyed for decades.
In terms of T’Rangers eventual return to the SPL then on the grounds of safety and avoiding social unrest then surely the SPL Board would be behind any moves to limit the away T’Rangers support to a mere minimum.
The clubs will have survived a good number of years without the Ibrox Shilling so why bother taking it if the price is the potential for unrest around the ground and damage to stadium infrastructure.
Given that some fans hold on to a grudge like a dog with a bone then whoever in charge of T’Rangers, come that day, will surley follow Saint Chuckies lead and just agree with the home club not to take up any allocation being there is no financial gain for T’rangers or any of their chosen charities.
Current SPL rules are as follows
C14.2 The Home Club must make provision for the admission of such reasonable number of visiting supporters at every home League Match as may be agreed in advance with the Visiting Club and, in the event of their being unable to agree such number not later than 14 days prior to the date of the League Match in question, the number of visiting supporters allowed shall be determined by the Board whose decision shall be final and binding.
C14.3 A section of the ground must be reserved for supporters of the Visiting Club and any tickets for League Matches must be distributed on this basis. Details of these arrangements should be publicised by the Clubs in advance SPL
Regards trying to get the truth out
IMO each and every fan of all the Scottish clubs should henceforth refer to so called The Rangers FC as a more appropriate name if they believe they are a different club .
Newco for me only leads to more confusion and it’s no surprise to see it’s a favourite with the sevconians and MSM as it seems to suggest an abbreviation of new company .
May I suggest ………SEVCO 2012 …..If you believe them to be a new club then I think this name is straight to the point .
Refer to them as SEVCO 2012 in any posts ,conversations and correspondence ,especially to the blazers and the MSM .
The SFA – also failing to deliver on ‘normal operations’.
============================================
I think the majority of fans, [even some TRFC fans !], have been deeply unimpressed with the performance of the SFA since February in particular.
However, if we ‘choose’ to view the whole debacle around Rangers/TRFC as being an ‘exceptional event’ which the SFA has struggled/failed to deal with – we can separately look at how effective the SFA has been wrt ‘normal operations’.
For example, I take the FIFA rankings with a pinch of salt, but what they do provide is an independent gauge of how a national team is performing over a period of time.
Today, Scotland’s FIFA ranking is 72.
Immediately above Scotland at no.71 is Togo.
A random choice: Algeria is at no.19.
Accepted that at any given time, the ranking can look unreasonably high – or low – so it’s probably more useful to look at trends.
In October 2007, Scotland ranked 13, [yes, thirteen.]
Since then, the ranking trend for Scotland has been a general decline until this month’s no.72.
To most folks, you would deduce that the Scotland team is in decline – and has been for the last 5 years, [I do like to state the bleeding obvious 😉 ].
Other than appointing a new manager, there is nothing to give the fans confidence that the ranking will improve significantly anytime soon.
And the rankings, IMO, indicate how effective, ultimately the SFA hierarchy is at improving the Scotland national team’s prospects – and how likely the team will achieve qualification to the Euros and/or World Cup in the future.
IMO, the FIFA rankings are a useful indication that the SFA is failing to deliver on ‘normal operations’.
To reiterate other comments: there must be a clearout at the top of SFA first and foremost.
Only then can the organisation start to rebuild trust and credibility with the paying fans.
http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=sco/ranking/gender=m/index.html
Prospectus had about 72m shares in total. About 65m total now. Curious, the ~10% shares not taken up by supporters in these economic climes at Christmas could give a price uplift. And, original investors en bloc now have over 50% for voting purposes – supporters about 11% – Timing is everything it seems 😉