by Stuart Cosgrove for the Scottish Football Monitor
In the early years of the new millennium, ‘The Battle of the Saints’ was a First Division encounter. Both St Mirren and St Johnstone had been relegated and were among the favourites to return to the spiritually suffocating SPL. Winning the First Division title was a mixed blessing. It provided a football moment that old firm fans could only dream of – an open-top bus round. But victory meant you were back in the SPL, a league that had been shaped for the benefit of the two big clubs.
Television revenues were skewed, there were no play-offs, only one team could be relegated and the voting structures would bring shame to a tin-pot dictatorship. It was a league you could never realistically win and so never fully enjoy. I remember being in the ‘Wee Barrel’ a traditional football boozer near St Mirren’s old Love Street stadium. It was soon after the St Johnstone drug scandal. On 5th January 2001, George O’Boyle and his teammate Kevin Thomas had been sacked following allegations that they had used illegal recreational drugs. They had allegedly been caught taking an “unidentified white powder” at the club’s injured players Christmas Party at That Bar in Perth. The drugs scandal undermined St Johnstone’s much peddled identity as a local family club. A bitter industrial dispute unfolded and widespread dressing-room unrest. The team’s form catastrophically dipped. Inevitably, St Mirren fans were delighted to play host to such a “scandalised” and “drug-addled” club. Football fans relish the misfortune of others with almost satanic glee. So the Buddies cheered sarcastically when any Perth fans went into the Wee Barrel’s less than salubrious pub toilet. They made pantomime sniffing noises interjected with animal impersonations and at times it sounded like a famer’s convention had turned into a massive cocaine bender. I vividly remember that one St Johnstone fan became so enraged that he blurted out the unforgettable phrase ‘Aye but what about Barry Lavety?’ Further back in 1995 the St Mirren striker Lavety had been arrested for using the then ‘designer drug’ ecstasy making him the first footballer of the acid-house generation. In this short, pithy response outside a toilet door in the Wee Barrel, all the gut instincts of football spectatorship came to the surface and all the components of what was later to become known as ‘whataboutery’ were laid bare.
Whataboutery pre-dates the internet but it has been kindled by it. The web has transformed the way we talk and think about football. Suddenly and profoundly new forums for discussing the game quickly followed. Facebook was launched two years later in 2004, Twitter joined the social media firmament in 2006 and by 2012 and Scottish football’s summer of discontent the micro-blogging platform had 500 million active users. The rise of social media invoked an ‘epistemological break’ with previous eras of spectatorship and with other forms of media and communication. For the first time ever, fans had a way of instantly communicating, of answering back and disagreeing with each other in real-time. Whataboutery is a dismal art that can be defined by three often sub-conscious characteristics – a refusal to engage with the question at hand; an attempt to deflect the discussion on to others and a failure to engage with the morality of the subject.
Go on any web forum today and you will find many debates are pock-marked with whataboutery. The financial meltdown of Rangers is the most recent and most virulent example. What about Hearts they owe the taxman? What about Dundee they’ve gone bust twice? What about Leeds, Middlesbrough and Portsmouth? Sadly, the misdemeanours of others is an unstable platform on which to mount a moral defence and celebrating victory in a tax tribunal about complex offshore loan-trusts does not magically airbrush away tax-debt involving VAT and PAYE. Nor does whatboutery explain why already rich footballers should enjoy the moral right to hide behind complex off shore tax schemes, irrespective of their legality. Every football fan at some time in their life has felt a deep primal urge to defend their club. We are emotionally instinctive creatures and quick to play the martyr. But however passionate you are about football – and I would count myself as ‘combustible’ – being loyal to your club does not permit disloyalty or contempt for the institutions of a fair society.
Not surprisingly, the origins of the term whatboutery can be traced back to the sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland. Last year I met the journalist and blogger, Mick Fealty who is one of the driving forces behind the blog forum Slugger O’Toole, a site that has bravely tried to provide a platform for localism and for non-sectarian political discourse in Northern Ireland. It is often cited as the place where the term whataboutery was invented. Taking its lead from Slugger, the online dictionary wikitionary defines whataboutery as “responding to criticism by accusing one’s opponent of similar or worse faults.” Recently, at the height of rioting in Belfast in the aftermath of Belfast city council’s policy shift on flying the union flag, a major local newspaper the Belfast Telegraph said in a trenchant editorial – “For everyone who cares about democracy; who wants an end to sectarian posing and mind games; an end to mindless thuggery; an end to immature reactions to complicated issues; an end to whataboutery ….” An end to sectarian posing and mind games – how refreshing would that be? The recent case of Anthony Stokes is a case in point. Most fans would concede that Stokes is a fool to have associated himself with the Real IRA and criminal elements within the Dublin republican scene. But some fans – believing they were supporting their club and its Irish origins – are hard-wired to romanticism and a re-hashed history. Nothing that Stokes has done is either romantic or historic – it is grubby and pathetic. Nor is deflection acceptable either. Yes of course Andy Goram has associated with some fairly disagreeable characters but that does not absolve Stokes of responsibility. Celtic manager Neil Lennon has been unambiguous about that. Stokes is on a final warning and rightly so. Whataboutery is the glue of entrenched opinion. It cultivates extremes rather than subtleties, and favours glib comment over deeper dialogue. That is why TSFM should always be vigilant about the forum slipping into whatabouterty.
It seems almost banal to say it, but you can be a supporter without being a supplicant. You can be Rangers daft without endorsing morally bereft tax loopholes, you can want Neil Lennon to enjoy a life free from intimidation without defending complicated film investment schemes; you can relish a goal by Garry O’ Connor without admiring his self-defeating lifestyle, you can be a big Jambo but still expect staff to be paid on time, you can be a Red Ultra without having to urinate on videos of Gazza and you can soak up the atmosphere in the Dundee Derry, without cushioning its sectarian associations. And, yes I do know that there was once a dairy behind the goal at the Derry End – but when fights erupted in the 1970s, it wasn’t lactic pasteurisation they were fighting about.
Football fans can be emotionally passionate yet hold on to moral values. We can be vocal without being vacuous. We can be diehard fans without being robotic ideologues for our club. Many of us have found ourselves tied in knots trying to defend our clubs and in some cases defend the indefensible. The roll-call of whatboutery in Scottish football would shame a mature society. There’s defective flat-screen televisions in Manchester; hearses at Celtic Park; programme notes at Montrose; unidentified white powder; porn peddlers in the 1980s, Joanna Lumley’s love-life, urinal-videos in Aberdeen; Leigh Griffith’s unique contribution to fatherhood; Hugh Dallas’s emails; Maurice Edu’s car and Lee Wallace’s air-rifle. They are surreal and seemingly endless.
As new technologies surround us daily, whataboutery has gone digital and online disputes are now frequently backed up by a stream of phone-footage, rogue tweets, photo-shopped imagery and spectacularly desperate analogies. We live in the white-heat of social media where whataboutery goes on ad nauseum and in perpetuity. It is the dismal art of the web and a habit we have to overcome if Scottish football is ever to find a settled democracy. The financial collapse of Rangers has brought us to a cross roads. Unless there is some kind of rapprochement and an ‘appliance of compliance’, then whataboutery will last for many more decades to come. Whataboutery is a defence mechanism which allows fans and the clubs they support to avoid moral responsibility. But it need not be like that. In February 2007, Scottish football was given a simple lesson in how the game could be run if we could look forward. It was a cold and wet night at Fir Park during a midweek Scottish cup tie. St Johnstone’s Jason Scotland was unexpectedly targeted by a small band of racist Motherwell fans. By most reasonable accounts of the events, a gang of right-wing casuals taunted the player with monkey chants. Season tickets were not valid and many fans were not in their regular seats. But within a few minutes, groups of decent Motherwell fans turned on the racists, shouted them down and alerted the police.
Online there was a brief and half-hearted flurry of whataboutery. Some denied it had happened, others said that Jason Scotland was “playing the race card” and a small vocal minority argued it was Airdrie fans. This is an unfamiliar twist on an age old deflection. Blaming phantom support from elsewhere is quite common in Scottish football, although it is usually the demonology of Chelsea, Millwall or England fans that are cast as the mysterious villains.
Whatever the motives of those that posted their defence of Motherwell, the whataboutery was short-lived and brought to a shuddering halt by a simple, prompt and unambiguous apology. In an official club statement, Chairman John Boyle said: “These people should never show their faces at Fir Park again and they have no place in football,” adding “We are utterly appalled by this behaviour by a small group of people who have tarnished the name of our club. We are writing to Jason Scotland and St Johnstone today to apologise for this disgusting behaviour which is totally alien to all of us.”
Motherwell had scripted a blue-print for change. Rather than deflect attention elsewhere or dispute the minutiae of events, clubs, fans and officials have to become “better at being wrong.” When there is a clear injustice, evidence of wrong-doing or powerful proof that mistakes have been made, then it is no longer acceptable to hide from the moral consequences. Apologise and pay the price. That applies equally to all of us and there is no hierarchy of importance. No special cases. The SPL may have a history of gifting privileges but common decency does not.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. This is the second of a trilogy of blogs he has agreed to write for TSFM. The first was about the era of Armageddon. He writes here in a personal capacity.
On the 5 way agreement (we need an acronym here guys) my understanding, as a fan, going back to the arguement about inappropriate boycotts, decisions based on facts etc was that Chuckie signing up to it was pre requisite to the transfer occurring. The principle purpose of the 5WA was to tie newco into the footballing sins of oldco. The MSM as expected jumped on the media rights bit that was chicken feed in the bigger scheme of things. I remember stating on here at the time that I was amazed that he signed up to it.
On the tickets thinking about it offering the tickets for sale would work a treat. First up it would expose the undoubted threats and in-fighting that would pollute the interweb for the next 6 weeks or so. Secondly I would expect the sale of tangerine scarves to quadruple for Christmas just so they’re not seen to be scabs. At a push they might even buy Dundee ones instead – you know, no-one likes us and all that.
Actually scratch all that. Allegedly tangerine apparell might not be that hard to come by after all.
angus1983 says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 14:44
Senior says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 13:20
You would not turn up at the OK Corral with unloaded weapons. You turn up (or walk away) with the means of enforcing a change. That does not mean the weapons are fired, just the threat is enough.
In any case supporters deciding the game is crooked is not something that can be dragooned or even be called a boycott. It will come out as a result of what happens in the coming months, but there is no harm in letting the powers that be know that as things stand more of the same is simply not an option.
The result of the LNS enquiry will be key in shaping the mood, until then it is useful to discuss the issues and how to make things happen.
Traynor doesn’t seem to have the Sun on board.
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4706478/Gers-fans-battle-cops-after-Ibrox-branding-sale-demo.html
campsiejoe says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 15:46
Exactly and I have made the point at least once in the last few days. When Joe O Rourke threatened the SFA with a boycott in 2010 it was notor the fun of it. The reasons why it was being threatened were set out in a language that was difficult to argue with and the aims were made clear.
The media picked it up and the SFA responded pdq as I recall along with Gordon Smith resigning.
Despite what I said earlier about Iceman and his boycott everything agenda, I would not blame anyone for walking away if, next season, we have this ludicrous two leagues of 12 splitting into three leagues of 8, with an afterthought league of 18 below. I don’t think the SPL clubs fully appreciate the ridicule this set up will bring on our game.
If Sevco 2012 are allowed to jump a league, I may well become a hypocrite and walk away myself.
rapscallion;15.40
Thanks for that,agree wholeheartedly.I have 9 TDs on my post.It’s a strange blog at times.
Sorry, one sentance in that Sun article just has to be highlighted here, for comic effect if nothing else.
“Sections of the Ibrox support claim the club’s history will be tarnished if the move goes ahead.”
Auldheid (@Auldheid) @ 15:53
It’s that kind of action that is needed again
How that is achieved is the question though
jw hardin says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 15:47
Sections of the Ibrox support claim the club’s history will be tarnished if the move goes ahead.
—————————————
Tarnished by renaming?? Not tarnished by riots in Manchester and other places???
Accusations of police laying about with truncheons – any truth? Did quick search on Youtube couldn’t see it but maybe not caught on camera.
smugas you beat me!
campsiejoe says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 15:46
A lot of comments on boycott or not to boycott
My own view, is that a boycott on its own would be fairly meaningless, and unfortunately, ineffective
Unless we can get this into the media, at a consistently noticeable level, we will forever be the voice crying in the wilderness
At the moment the MSM hold all of the publicity cards, and we need to find a way of competing with them
That, in my eyes, is the real challenge
———————
It might be that the Sun is gearing-up for a fight with Record…who knows?
smugas says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 16:10
Sorry, one sentance in that Sun article just has to be highlighted here, for comic effect if nothing else.
“Sections of the Ibrox support claim the club’s history will be tarnished if the move goes ahead.”
==========================================================================
I make them bang right. I mean calling it the “Craig Whyte Ticketus Arena” is only going to bring back bad memories.
Just thought I would look at the issues surrounding Dundee Utd charging for the replay three years ago.
In the Daily Record reports Bain and Thomspons recollection of events.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/ticket-row-escalates-as-dundee-utd-1044531
Bain – “The game was called off at half-time and I was standing beside SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster and the chairman of Dundee United.
“I said to them, ‘I hope you’ll see sense and make sure our supporters retain their ticket stubs and get back in for nothing’.”
However, Thompson denies Bain ever said this in his company. The Tannadice chairman said: “We spoke to Rangers repeatedly about the game and the options. And we agreed to play them next Tuesday, which was the date they preferred.
“I spoke to Martin to tell him we were going to charge people a reduced admission. His response was, ‘It’s up to you, it’s your home game’.
“The first we knew that Rangers were unhappy was about an hour later when they released a statement. At no time did they raise any objection with us.”
The funny thing is that if we go and look at rules being applied without fear or favour the Rules of The Scottttish Football Association Challenge Cup found on the web say – (although I concede they may not have been the ones applicable at the time as I cannot see a date on the document)
30 Match Unfinished
(a) In the event of any match in the Competition being unfinished owing to weather conditions or other causes over which neither competing club has any control, the disbursement of receipts from the unfinished match shall be made in accordance with the relevant Rules which would have been applicable had the match been completed.
(b) When such unfinished match is subsequently re-scheduled and played, the disbursement of receipts from that match shall be made in accordance with the relevant Rules, subject to the discretionary provisions contained in section (c) of this Rule 30.
(c) The competing clubs shall have discretion, subject to the Board’s endorsement of the exercise of such discretion and notwithstanding the provisions for charges for admission stipulated elsewhere in the Rules, to agree to admit on a concessionary basis to the re-scheduled match, those spectators for whom an admission charge had been accounted in respect of the unfinished match.
NOTE:
b) it is expected by the SFA that there will be receipts from the replayed game
c) BOTH clubs would have had to agree and THEN seek Board Endorsement to allow a concession for free entry.
Mentioning free admission on the hoof to one club representative in front of the administrator of another football authority on a wet and windy night doesn’t cut the mustard.
My reading of the is that the default position is to charge for the replay, although it may indeed have been custom and practice in healtier economic times to allow free admission and exercise the discretion available.
Also from web articles at the time it appears clear that Dundee Utd were not aiming to profit from the game and indeed played the ‘Charity Card’ long before Mr Charles came on the scene.
http://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/…/ArabNeWS%2010%20December%20...
“As stated previously, ticket pricing for this game is designed to cover the costs of hosting the match, including the substantial policing and stewarding costs associated with a normal Old Firm game. If it turns out that income on the night exceeds the actual costs charged, the Chairman has agreed that any surplus will be donated to the United for Kids appeal. This year the appeal operated at a deficit and therefore any additional funding would help greatly in ensuring that next year’s appeal does not suffer.”
Now one of the things the United for Kids Appeal does it helps give youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds a chance to go and see their local team. Therefore it could be argued that fans of both clubs were helping fund ‘free tickets’ that help people get to a game and make the stadium look fuller.
Once again Dundee United leading the way for another recent ‘innovation’ from Mr Charles.
As opposed to boycotting the next cup game I’m surprised the Bears aren’t praising Dundee Utd for their foresight.
jw hardin @ 16:20
They well be, but will they come out and tell the truth about what has been going on
Will expose the SFA/SPL/SFL for being the conniving cheats that they are ?
Will they demand that a compromised President of the SFA stands down ?
Will they tell their readership that Sevco are a brand new club, with no history ?
Not a cat’s chance in Hades
I can’t condone any form of boycott. I’ll always support my team, I try to always support Scottish Football whenever I can, and I read any publication I chose.
The way forward is to harass from within. Badger our own clubs to recognise the absurdity of the sevco situation. Follow the Montrose example by speaking the truth, and never let this mendacious fallcy be allowed to fester. We must do so constantly and challenge every false statement, through our clubs, supporters groups and right here.
We are Scottish Football.
campsiejoe says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 16:32
jw hardin @ 16:20
They well be, but will they come out and tell the truth about what has been going on
Will expose the SFA/SPL/SFL for being the conniving cheats that they are ?
Will they demand that a compromised President of the SFA stands down ?
Will they tell their readership that Sevco are a brand new club, with no history ?
Not a cat’s chance in Hades
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I suspect you are right Joe but if they did as you suggest it would give them a huge commercial advantage.
If they reported on Scottish Football as proper journalists instead of reprinting PR pish which the DR does it wouldn’t be long before all supporters had to read it. Personally, I won’t be buying it. I’m still bitter about my night in the jail after being relieved of my duties on the NI picket line some years ago.
monsieurbunny says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 16:16
0 0 Rate This
jw hardin says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 15:47
Sections of the Ibrox support claim the club’s history will be
tarnished if the move goes ahead.
—————————————
Tarnished by renaming?? Not tarnished by riots in Manchester
and other places???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Manchester riots was a different club. No really. It was.
monsieurbunny says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 16:16
Sections of the Ibrox support claim the club’s history will be tarnished if the move goes ahead.
—————————————
Tarnished by renaming?? Not tarnished by riots in Manchester and other places???
——
Eh … oh, hang on. Wobbly beat me to it. 🙂
A notable example of how the furtive plan of TRFC to be seen to be RFC seems, on the surface, to be working.
I would suggest, however, that the history of the Club is so short that a stadium name change is unlikely to tarnish it. In fact, it will help the support to accept that they are not, in fact, the Old Rangers FC – who played at Ibrox for pretty much their entire 140 year history (despite moving it a bit to fit in with Masonic requirements at one stage).
Loved the Sun pic of “Pie-Brox”, by the way. 🙂
What I still cannot get my head around re the flotation is the apparent lack of detailed financial forecasts in the IPO documents. What did Charlie provide to the institutional investors which convinced them that punting a few mill on a football club in the backwaters of Europe would be worth it? How could he possibly justify that valuation on the basis of league reorganisation and “European opportunities”?
I’m the FD of a reasonably big company; I have to supply detailed P&L, balance sheet and cash flow forecasts to bankers, credit insurers, industry monitors etc on a regular basis. Questions are asked about assumptions and forecasts, measured against historical performance and current and future market information.
Were the criteria I have to meet be asked of Sevco, no one would invest a penny in them.
What makes investors in football blind to economic reality?
finchleyflyer
I also smell kippers
angus1983 says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 14:44
Senior says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 13:20
I have no time for boycotts either, I hate the word, but there is no other alternative.
——
I think there is. I have no intention of boycotting anything at this time.
What I will do, however, is keep a very close eye on how the situation unfolds over the next 1, 2 or 3 years. I hold out no hope of the history which Mr Green claims to have bought being separated from TRFC (and there is precedent around Europe, so it’s a moot point anyway). The circumstances of this purchase should be publicised – I assume Mr Green has paperwork to support his ludicrous claim. Let’s see it, Mr Green – you can produce it when you front up with the Title Deeds.
Anyway – the authorities have already been given notice that any underhand dealings will be at the very least the subject of suspicion, if not exposed.
They are effectively on a Final Warning already.
————————————-
Angus there is just one problem with this. We need to make it clear to the authorities that they are on there final warning and indeed we need to spell out what will happen if they continue to fail.
At the moment we are disregarded as mere bampots.
i believe this is why some of us are keen to create some sort of charter with the key perfomance areas as we see them then reach out to all fans groups for support in making that very very clear to the Clubs, Authorities and the Media.
I know most of us aren’t keen on boycotts and they are more the thing of the militant bears but if we do it properly it is a show of strength and unity. That is the point.
2 thoughts now on this:
1) we can create our charter or manifesto or whatever and raise our concerns through advertising, open letters to the authorities, direct contact with all our clubs. These can be attached to some clear indication of the next steps of those united fans bodies if no attention is given to the concerns. Those next steps should include withholding our custom wherever we feel appropriate. The ball is in their court then, act now or face a huge vote of no confidence from fans of all clubs. Hopefully boycotts themselves can be avoided.
2) perhaps the other option is rather than threatening boycotts as the consequence of continuing to ignore the fans we should simpy be putting them on final warning that we will walk away forever and never look back if they do not heed us.
jw hardin
Think you may be wrong about Traynor influence over the Sun.
The protest at the Annan match happened before kick off. The battle with police took place after the sending off which was at the 59th minute. I was watching a stream on the match, and the commentator could clearer be heard saying that coins were being thrown onto the pitch. A lurk on the RM thread relating to the incident, confirmed that coins and lighters were thrown and that’s when the police moved in to arrest 2 people. The Union Bears and the other singing group took exception to this and the incident escalated from there.
The truth has been lost.
Another rambling thought..
If 100% of the fans of any one club walk away forever (be that Sevco or any other club) then Scottish Football as a whole will survive. There may be a financial impact but the game as a whole will survive.
If even 25% of fans of all the other professional clubs walk away forever then I think the whole Scottish game is dead in the water. Most clubs, even in the SPL, would need to go part time. Celtic and Rangers would have enough fans to remain full time of course but would be trapped in a completely dead league with no one to play against. TV figures would rapidly decline.
So the power has to lie with the majority of clubs fans not with the fans of any one club – no matter how numerous the fans of that club are.
Hearts late with payments again ssn
ot/
http://goo.gl/tJQ8x
liveinhop says: Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 17:33
=====================================
Who’d be a Hearts supporter?
Just on the day they announce that over £1M was raised in the share scheme, it now appears that appearance money and bonus payments are not up to date, thus the transfer embergo that was due to be lifted on Sunday will remain, pending a further hearing with the SPL.
http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20121220/club-statement_2241384_3015446
There were quick enough to claim that the wages were paid on time lsat week, including deferred wages from the previous month.
…. and this Board claims to be transparent. 🙁
Boycotts and ‘works to rules’ are good tactics but never easy to mount successfully.
Sometimes they inconvenience and disadvantage the actual participants.
They have to be worked at.
If not largely adhered to then the opposition is encouraged.
This is not to say that the proposed boycott does not have my support.
Other, easier, means of showing dissent, strength of feeling and building support should come before any declaration of dates for a boycott.
One of the other means that might be used is that of giving a warning to SFA/SPL/our own clubs by brandishing yellow cards at specified games ….. each home team’s fans to organise? …… Scottish Cup ties? …… internationals?
Next step might be a red card display.
Just a thought …………………..
From a PR persepective, would the following be a ‘goer’ for the SFA ?
The SFA must be fully aware of the negative perceptions held by the fans.
The SFA cannot hide for ever (?), and at some point will need to engage the fans.
So, would it be wise for the SFA to be proactive – and thus try and control the situation ?
An example could be to invite representatives from official supporter groups from the SPL and SFL clubs to Hampden for an ‘open forum’.
But the SFA controls the agenda, gives some soundbites and is seen to be ‘listening to the fans’.
The SFA then issues a CEO statement, [ha !], confirming that they took on board all the fans’ concerns about governance etc. – and will be ‘setting up a committee’ to look into the complaints in detail.
Fans’ grievances could then – as they say – be swiftly punted into the long grass…
Is there an opportune time for the SFA to try and play the ‘we’re all in this together’ card and try to take the initiative – before those persky Internet Bampots get themselves organised ?
Re the share issue
My take on it is ,CG got 17m from business investors and was looking for 10m from the sevco 2012 gullible .
Now with the 17m being from peepil with no emotional attachment to Sevco 2012 ,I assume they will be looking to get their money back and some (although the rumoured 30% tax relief may be what they are after) I think CG was banking on the gullible coming up with the 10m as he would probably think that it could be safely spent without worrying about them getting anything back.
Would his immediate speech about flogging the naming rights be a way of filling the shortfall in the running costs ?.I heard he did not seem too bullish during his speech for a man who was reporting a massively successful share floatation .
I think CG stated when Wattie rushed to the cemetery with his 6m and an old Frankenstein video to nick the corpse from him that he and his consortium had already had an outlay of 10m .
With ST sales bringing in say 8m and a wage bill of 7m it doesn’t leave much to keep the lights on in the big house .Rather than being debt free methinks Charlie’s new born has been burning cash since he walked in the door .
When spivs invest ,spivs expect to get their cash back and some ,it’s what they do the rest will have to fend for themselves and when the whole of Scottish football is cutting their cloth because of the financial climate and someone declares they are going to give a 3rd Div manager (who is to football management what Eddie the Eagle was to ski jumping ) then forgive me for being sceptical on anything else he says
Quote:
Where does this £22.2m leave Rangers?
Remember, no-one was going to buy a ticket off me in July; I was a ‘snake oil salesman’. So, let’s look where we are [going]. I would assume that if we’ve win the third division and get promoted into a new division – whether it’s football league or a restructured division or whatever – we’ll see no less season tickets sold next season. We reduced the price to £315 this year but if they went to £400 next year that’s another £18m of season-ticket money in the bank and we still can’t buy players. That’s the scary thing about Rangers looking from the outside: we now have more cash on the balance sheet. We have a market cap of £45m and nearly £30m of it is cash. How scary is that?
How is the money going to be spent; specifically on the football side?
We have an allocation to spend money on the stadium; it’s had nothing spent on it for the last couple of years. We’ve acquired Edmiston House next door which will be turned into a bar and a megastore. We’ve acquired the Albion Car Park to get rid of an onerous lease which was going to drain £4m out of the club. We’ve allocated £10m for Ally to spend on players as soon as he’s able to do that.
What we’ve also done is set a structure in place where Rangers are no longer a boom-or-bust club. It’s about sustainability, about managing this club professionally, increasing revenue. We’re going to spend £3m on media. We’ve just announced a new director of communications [James Traynor], we’re going to invest in IT and we’re going to invest in technology, because image rights are really what institutional football clubs are about. We have a whole raft of projects that we’re going to invest our money in. Not to invest in it so that it disappears, but to invest it so that we get recurring revenues from it.
But talk of a multi-million pound Rangers “transfer warchest” has turned out to be pie-in-the-sky in the past, why should this new £10m figure be any different?
What you’ve seen with Uefa’s Financial Fair Play is the whole structure of football is changing. Financial Fair Play will be enforced and everyone has to get their house in order. I’m excited, not just because I managed to pick Rangers up at a very very low price, but because the whole model of football is changing. We’re looking at cross-border leagues. You saw what [Celtic chief executive] Peter Lawwell said at his agm; we’re exactly the same story as that. There’s change out there and it’s coming now. Salaries will go down, transfer fees will change. There are a whole raft of changes being driven by external forces and, whereas in the past we might have needed £100m to get a squad together, those days are long gone.
When we look at our stars, our Theo Walcotts, like Barrie McKay and Fraser Aird, these guys, we have to be aware what their options are. Football’s changing and we need to be aware of that. We don’t need to be paying £12m for Tore Andre Flo. When was that ever good business?
You ring-fenced £10m-worth of shares for fans but £4.5m was not taken up. why not make those shares available to institutional investors, do you fear there would be no interest?
We were over-subscribed, and we can only do that by a placing and the document wouldn’t allow us to do that. We’d have to raise another document to do a placing with institutions.
Does the shortfall in the fans’ take-up mean you’ll have to raise the price of tickets or merchandising?
It’s not a shortfall. We’ve raised £2.5m more than we set out to. But I’ve made no secret season tickets will cost more next year because we will be in a higher league. We have brought the best merchandise man in Europe in as our partner with Sports Direct [Mike Ashley] and what we want to do now is make this club the success that it should have been over the last 20 years.
Why wasn’t the full £10m taken up by fans. is there a reluctance to endorse Charles Green? or could fans not afford it?
It’s purely economics. Look, there are people who don’t like me – I had a wife that divorced me, she didn’t like me so I’m sure there are others out there who don’t like me. Walter [Smith] said it in typical Walter style when I asked him to join and he said yes. He said: ‘You don’t need me to sell season tickets, you’ve sold 37,500’. He said ‘they are behind Charles Green’. To put it into context, he said he had been booed off at half-time when he was doing nine- in-a-row. He said ‘everyone here loves you’ so the fans are onside.
“Look, I’ve been straight from day one and the fans didn’t like it at times. It’s black and white, I want this club to be successful. I don’t say it to be politically correct – that’s why I’ve been on SFA charges – and I don’t say it to endear myself to the fans. I say it because it’s important everyone knows the truth. That’s why Rangers got into a mess, because the people at the top didn’t tell anyone. It’s never going to happen under my stewardship.
You’ve bought shares, too, and now have 8% of the club: when will you cash them in?
I can’t sell for two years. I’ve signed a lock-in and agreed not to sell. I believe that this club will be back in Europe, back in the Champions League, and I believe there will be structural changes in Europe. If we can get Rangers into a European league or any other structure with TV revenues commensurate with other leagues – because Scottish TV money is a joke – the value of Rangers would be 10 times what it is today.
You and Celtic have common interest in playing in a more lucrative league. have you spoken to them recently about playing somewhere else?
I don’t even know where their ground is. I’ve never been. Actually, I met Fergus McCann once, so I have been once. I met McCann when I was at Sheffield United and I went to buy Pierre van Hooijdonk, but we didn’t buy him. I’ve not spoken to Celtic. I spoke to Peter Lawwell the day we were thrown out the league. That’s the last time I met him.
It’s utterly hilarious. Some of my favourites are him comparing Theo Walcott (whose pish anyway) to Fraser Aird and Barry McKay. And saying season tickets will go up because they’re on a ‘higher league next year’. Rather than the truth of ‘we have an unsustainable business model so need to charge our fans as much as possible to stop ourselves from going bust again’ (That’s the only ‘scary’ thing about your club Chuckles).
I also appreciate all the references to Celtic as he clearly knows that Rangers fans are envious of how well run we are so wants to latch on to us as much as possible. Apart from that it’s the ususal blsuter about improving Ibrox and spending vast sums of money on players. I’m sure like the last time that will work out just fine
StevieBC says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 17:46
An example could be to invite representatives from official supporter groups from the SPL and SFL clubs to Hampden for an ‘open forum’..
================
They have previous ……. you may remember a few people who organised a poll were invited to talks and then told not to discuss in public.
livinhope
I take it from CG latest speech that he is doing a CW and paying no one ,plenty of how much he will take in but nothing at all about what is going out .
why can’t the SFA publish the 5 way agreement and who was involved in its drafting. Also, who appoints the SFA president ? How can the SFA be run by a person involved in a club that appears to have been mismanaged on a grand scale for over a decade resulting in its demise and liquidation
Not sure if anyone has commented on it before, but one thing will certainly irk Green about this flotation being undersubscribed by the supporters uptake.
He will know, as many on here already knew, that Sevco fans do not dig deep, even when they have seen their former love wither and die just a few months before. They will not pay their way. They might make a token gesture or two, but ultimately, because they are the people, they expect others to provide for them. They are entitled to it.
So – he will now know that he will not be able to return to that well and expect large amounts of money to finance any future plans. Hence the continued feather-stoking to keep them onside (titles etc).
But now that he does realise that, I wonder how long before panic sets in around his financing plans for year 2 and year 3? I mean, if there aren’t enough willing to cough up the desired amount at the wake, how on earth is he going to convince them when he needs it again next year and the year after?
charles green said he would buy any shares the fans did not.
why has nobody in the msm asked him if he is going to buy them himself, after all,#
he likes to keep his “promises”
off topic but Levein suing the SFA. It could be said that one is as incompetent as the other. He has no chance of winning, he failed as a Scotland manager and rather than sack him, they moved him aside and continued to pay him. Craig refused his salary…sounds like he is being badly advised . Craig you are not at the BBC, go find a job and try and rebuild your damaged 4 6 0 reputation.
Assuming that promotion is a given for the Newclub plying its trade in Scotlands fourth tier this season. Is there anyone in our media who can justify, or who will question, a £10,000,000.00 spending budget for a Newclub plying their trade in Scotlands third tier next season? Is there another team in the SFL who are prepared to be so profligate and reckless? Is this an indication that the Newclub is going to continue following in the footsteps of the Oldclub?
If McCoist needs, or is given, a £10 million budget in the lower leagues to compete on a level playing field, how much will he need to compete at the highest level in Scotland?
Deja vu anyone?
Can imagine CG preparing his next speech:
“If t’SFL spend fiver ah’ll spend t’tenner”.
troyblain says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 19:14
Craig you are not at the BBC ……
=======
………… yet.
iceman63 says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 13:12
‘….They are indeed only one club, but I suspect that had they been more forceful over this then others would have followed and we would not be in the moral miasma we are in today. ..’
——-
I disagree with you on this point, I’m afraid, iceman..
If PL had shot his mouth off in anything like the way that rabble-rousing CG does, there would quite literally have been blood on the streets.
All the anger and viciousness of the mob who have been DESPERATE to pin responsibility for the death of their club and all the humiliation they have had to endure, on some Celtic-inspired and promoted long-term plot to ruin them, would have been unleashed in a thousand ways.
And excused and played down by the MSM ( as is their wont)
And, as said before, there was/is no particular reason why CFC should make a martyr of itself.
The SFA has scores of members, all to some extent or other ‘complicit’ in the failure to propose and insist on the ousting of Ogilvie and cronies,and their replacement by men of greater integrity.
For all we know, PL may have been biting ears quietly seeking support for the calling of an EGM, only to find no such support forthcoming!
it is rather ironic that a club that spent 10s of millions more than it had to ensure success at the cost of the British taxpayer and many businesses has created a brand new club promising to do the same .
What do our governing bodies say, Sweet FA
jw hardin says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 15:47
Sections of the Ibrox support claim the club’s history will be tarnished if the move goes ahead.
—————————————
Surely, if any of the history is unwanted, Mr Green could sell it. “Everything is for sale”. Maybe if there was enough interest, it could be floated on the AIM. Can you sell the future, too?
rab says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 13:35
14 0 Rate This
Why don’t we delay and hold TSFM xmas party in the away end at tannadice. A wee drink among friends, fitba to watch, boost for charity, support D Utd and a massive GIRUY to CG and the SFA.
Everyones a winner.
Taysider and Arabest could put us up.
I’ll get the first round in.
————————-
Best idea I’ve seen on here for some time – and, Live on SKY ! – the Scottish MSM can’t keep that under wraps. If Dundee United are up for it, then I’m sure it would be fully supported. Great opportunity for maximum media coverage.
Regarding this action, and others, official Supporters Clubs being lobbied seems the best approach; they are well established, representative of the club, with good connections with both their own club management and other supporters clubs throughout Scotland. So best to start with Dundee United supporters in this case ?
And… I’ll get the next round in, honest !
TSFM did you get my e-mail?
I see people on here asking why the SPL/SFA/SFL don’t do this, don’t that. I say forget it. There is no point in trying to reason with these people They are too deep in it. It is now impossible for.them to regain the high moral ground.
I also understand the need for the whole football fraternity being involved in this proposed boycott. How is this to be achieved? When will we know the perfect day to go fishing?
I feel the acorn should be planted now and hope it takes root and flourishes. I feel the bulk of fans are looking for leadership and decisive action………….what have we got to lose?
Below is the first draft of notification All comments are welcomed and will be respected.
The date of the weekend will be announced at the end of the year.
Boycott Weekend ………………….January
Dear Fellow Fans,
As you all know the game of football in Scotland is tittering on the edge of the abyss. The past 12 months has witnessed the most turbulent times the game has experience in our lifetime. It would be comical if it were not so serious to observe the spectacle of the SFA and others attempting to administer the game without the need for rules and regulations. We have the incredible situation that one man and his club can say and do what they like and have no regard, or fear of the rules, while others for the most minor breaches of these same rules are brought to book post haste.
We have all, at one time or another had the feeling that there was an element of corruption at the highest level in our game, albeit covertly so. In recent months our worst fears have been realised, the game at the highest level is rife with corruption and in a totally overt fashion. The continuance of this corruption can have one consequence for our game and that is the demise of our beloved game.
The ordinary fan has had to watch this death march helplessly and a times in complete despair. The people (clubs) he expected to step up to the plate and insist that rules are applied fairly and fearlessly are in fact, by their silence, – for whatever reason – fear? – acquiescing in this charade. There have been a few notable exceptions of course and we are eternally grateful for their courage when it was needed.
The decent fan has one last opportunity to take back the game from these despicable spineless administrators. I intend to boycott all football in Scotland for week ending the …. of January I am appealing to every fan of every club in Scotland to follow the same action on that particular weekend.
We are also proposing to boycott every newspaper in Scotland that weekend. They, by their anaemic coverage of this blatant corruption have played a huge part in the flourishing of this decease. I feel if we all act as one and hold the line we will very quickly see action from the clubs.
I am appealing to every decent fan on this forum to send this notice to every friend on their email address book, and then to ask those friends in turn to send this email on to their friends etc. etc. I am also asking those who have the contacts, Fanzine sites, Facebook, Twitter, TV Radio, and Newspapers, to use your skills to disseminate this information to the above sites.
I apologise for any grammatical errors in this notice but I am an ordinary fan who wishes to do something to prevent the game from sliding over the above mentioned abyss.
Thank You
surely history cannot be selectively bought. The debt is a large part of recent Rangers history. If Sevco want to wear that clothing they need to pay back every penny.
I suspect the true reason for non publication of the 5 way agreement is that it will reveal that the SFA/SFL and SPL acted beyond their powers and the whole licence trandsfer was actually ultra vires and thus illegitimate. CG knows this – and he knows that if it is ever revealed then together with The Rangers down go the three governing bodies themselves. He has cleverly tied them all in his own web.
=========================================================================
Iceman…I think that last paragraph sums up exactly what has happened in Scottish Football…and all three bodies, in cahoots with Green, know it and are too afraid to act or comment.
rather than say CG was clever , lets say our own governing bodies were numpties. You all know that Doncaster would have signed the SPL up to you’ve been framed, if that contract was put in front of him. I doubt he has ever negotiated upwards. If you left 5 meerkats in a room long enough, they would have negotiated at worst a comparable deal.
If you want to boycott something useful. Do what Ive done divest yourself of anything to do with the investors. Also write to your pension fund(any Pway on here do the same) and get them out of this loser before it hits par.
Money talks
I am indebted to the Christmas issue of Private Eye (issue 1330 22 Dec to 10 Jan) for a more than credible Baldrickian explanation as the reticence of Mr Charles concerning the beneficial ownership of those investor entities which lucked into the ‘penny dreadfuls’. Read on….
PLANET FOOTBALL
Rangers
Football clubs are rarely stellar investments, whatever their success on the pitch. But some lucky Rangers shareholders are guaranteed to make money. These are the prescient investors in the new Rangers FC that acquired the old bankrupt club earlier this year from its administrators. Between July and August, some paid just 1P a share for shares in Rangers FC, which were swapped for shares in the listed company ahead of the flotation.
Just over 19M shares were issued at 1P and another 2M at 50P (including 1M issued in October), compared with around 12M shares issued at a riskier 99P or 100P.
So who were the lucky investors? They seem to include mainly the inside group around Charles Green, who led the takeover, and his backers, including three mysterious offshore entities who held more than 23 percent of the club immediately before the flotation: Blue Pitch Holdings((4M shares), Margarita Funds Holding Trust (2.6M) and Norne Anstalt (1.2M) .
Only with the last of these is it known where the entity is registered (Vaduz, Lichtenstein). But the prospectus is completely silent on the beneficial owners.
There is a lock-in of at least 6 months for some investors and 12 months for Green and other directors. But the shares would have to perform very, very badly for those who paid 1P not to have a big result.
justinnian says
I am indebted to the Christmas issue of Private Eye (issue 1330 22 Dec to 10 Jan) for a more than credible Baldrickian explanation as the reticence of Mr Charles concerning the beneficial ownership of those investor entities which lucked into the ‘penny dreadfuls’. Read on….
Oh I dont know might be a first. Overlooked he was in for a year. Now theres a camapign to get behind. 70p to 1 p by 19/12/2113. Belter
cheer up troops theres your goal. .
finchleyflyer says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 17:15
What I still cannot get my head around re the flotation is the apparent lack of detailed financial forecasts in the IPO documents. What did Charlie provide to the institutional investors which convinced them that punting a few mill on a football club in the backwaters of Europe would be worth it? How could he possibly justify that valuation on the basis of league reorganisation and “European opportunities”?
I’m the FD of a reasonably big company; I have to supply detailed P&L, balance sheet and cash flow forecasts to bankers, credit insurers, industry monitors etc on a regular basis. Questions are asked about assumptions and forecasts, measured against historical performance and current and future market information.
Were the criteria I have to meet be asked of Sevco, no one would invest a penny in them.
What makes investors in football blind to economic reality?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
finch
You are forgetting that this entire saga from beginning to end has been run by Spivs up to and including the so called investors who acquired RIFC shares valued at £22.3m
By Spivs I mean people who have no goal other than to line their pockets by legally exploiting company law. People who do not flinch from heaping misery on the Gullible if that’s what it takes. They promise whatever needs to be promised without worrying about fulfilment. They don’t intend to be around when the promise is broken. They agree confidentiality if that’s what it takes to get what they want .But the break these confidences if it is expedient to do so.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
You are spot on making the point that no serious long term investor would put a penny into RIFC based on the prospectus
I would go further and claim
No serious long term investor HAS put a penny into RIFC
What we have are a collection of Spivs (in the dozens by now) who are feeding off a carcase
I reckon the only hard cash Green received came from Gullible Bears. Unsophisticated people who have not learned from the behaviour of Spivs in the past 18months
I don’t believe for a minute that these so called investors put a bean into RIFC
I reckon all that happened was that debts to Close Leasing, Whyte, and Ticketus were repaid in shares worth around £17m
Ticketus stated publicly they had a duty to their investors to back any serious bidder for the assets. Octopus stated on their website that the Ticketus investors at risk were the same people who had supported RFC ST deals since 2009. A review of Ticketus info in the public domain suggests the RFC ST deals got under way in Oct2009 as one of the Octopus tax exempt Enterprise Investment Schemes. These schemes run for 3 yrs. Therefore tax free withdrawals were possible from Nov 2012. The Ticketus ST deal with Whyte was financed by a sudden injection into Ticketus of over £20m in May 2011
Where did the money come from?
Spivs, Spivs and more Spivs
There is no way an honest Ticketus Fund Mgr. could think that basket case RFC were a good ST investment in 2009. Yet they attracted ST investors for ST deals of around £5m in 2 successive years before Whyte arrived
Why?
There’s only one possible explanation
TheTicketus investors knew a lot more about RFC than the Ticketus Fund Mgr. They knew their investment was safe
They believed their ST deal to Whyte was safe because returning that investment was part of the deal to sell the club
So there is every likelihood that we are witnessing the most successful Spiv operation in UK football. One where a well thought out plan went off the rails due to the incompetence of a football Mgr. and was rescued by an astute team of Spivs who skirted the law but so far seem to have stayed on the right side
Finally
If you are still unconvinced
Consider this
Bears are alleged to have bought 7m shares They will not have done so to make a quick profit. So it is safe to assume that Bears intend to keep their shares and won’t be selling anytime soon
This leaves the RIFC placing shares
How much discipline does it take to control the owners of 24m placing shares when the sp has risen above the IPO price of 70p?
Answer?
It’s impossible to prevent any of these 24m shares being sold if the will is there
Yet in the first 2 days of trading there has been a negligible amount of shares traded.
The sp has hovered around the level set by the Market Makers before 8am on the first day of trading
Suggesting
The placing shares may actually be under the control of one or two individuals despite the apparently long list of Nominees holders
Like Ticketus, Close Leasing and Whyte
People who are biding their time before they sell out
To maximise their profit
goosygoosy says:Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 21:58
The placing shares may actually be under the control of one or two individuals despite the apparently long list of Nominees holders
Like Ticketus, Close Leasing and Whyte
=========
Sir David Murray, anyone?
Another suggestion re: forcing the SFA to engage – meaningfully – with the fans.
It has been mentioned on TSFM/RTC in the past that the SFA receives/received funding from the Scottish Parliament – i.e. from the taxpayers. [Think a figure of c.GBP10M had been quoted before ?]
Would the SFA not be obligated to address fans’ concerns if they, as taxpayers, directed a campaign at the relevant authority, [sportscotland ?], and the minister for sport ?
If taxpayers have serious concerns about SFA governance, then shirley the SFA hierarchy would have to answer those concerns – and to justify continued receipt of public monies ?
I see that Chuckles has promised his manager £10m from the recent windfall, and by the time the transfer market is open to them, this will have risen to £30m, due to the justifiable increase in season ticket prices that will be charged as they will then be competing in a higher league.
What a guy!! For the next two seasons, he will generate a £10m p.a. surplus from operating costs. Or maybe it will be £8m, then £12m, as revenue streams are steadily maximised and the established structures of European football recognise the vision of Chuckles.
Is he telling us that £10m from the IPO will be ring-fenced for team improvements? No wonder the prospectus was somewhat vague on income / expenditure projections! I mean, if you could finesse these figures from a Scottish football club, operating in the lower tiers of a depressed market, would you share your vision with mere mortals? Nae chance! The man redefines the oft used term ‘financial guru’!
Either that or his ramblings are becoming so outrageous that we don’t seem to notice anymore. Who in their right mind can see this particular piece of fantastical nonsense coming to pass?
You gotta love him. As I said, what a guy!
Just a thought….
The ECA…state Rangers (now liquidated) lose their place in the ECA and ask SEVCO to re-apply and grant them an associate membership….whilst Aberdeen are given full membership…which means there are 2 Scottish clubs who are full members….Celtic and Aberdeen..
The SPL vote to delay the decision on changing the voting structure in the SPL….who voted for the delay…Aberdeen and Celtic..mmmmmm
1.Chuckles has got his money by whatever means the mugs put it up.
2.Its minus the costs -2.5m
3.Its minus his iintial loan and interest 8.5m?
4.Its his no matter what the market does to whoever invested pre ipo.
5.Prediction there is nothing left to do bar cash up and hope his 70p shares stay 70p shares for extra dosh. Clever man (but Craigie wher are you)
Remember, remember the 5th of November…
Stuart Cosgrove’s previous Blog (“Why the Beast of Armageddon Failed to Show?”) quite rightly blew away the notion that without a team from Govan in the SPL, then football in Scotland was doomed.
His Blog was met with universal acclaim (again, quite rightly). Some posters were even saying, if this is Armageddon, bring it on! The SPL at last looked like a competitive league, crowds seemed to be up and at last we looked like having a decent Scottish team in the last 16 of the Champions League.
A mere 6 weeks later and, apparently, the gemz a boagie. It’s aw rubbish. Despite us now having a decent team in the last 16 of the Champions League. The league still being competitive. And, presumably, crowds still up on last years figures.
Now there’s talk of fans helping their own team by boycotting one of their games. if that doesn’t work, then boycott another. And so on.
Although I read this blog every day, I feel I must have missed where the Scottish game went from being great to being rubbish in the space of 6 weeks.
I’m assuming it’s all to do with a recent manager getting in a bit of bother?
Surely nothing to do with a recent share offering that only half the amount of fans required actually ponied up the cash for?
I don’t know if I’m reading into this properly but it seems that 19m shares purchased at 0.01p (£190,000) are now worth £13,300,000 (0.70p) to the people/companies who were lucky to be in a situation to buy them.
Can’t be correct can it ?
Senior says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 20:57
Senior
I am also a senior and thanks very much for putting that together. I would replace ‘tittering’ with ‘teetering’, unless you meant the former!!!
goosygoosy says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 21:58
17 0 Rate This
How much discipline does it take to control the owners of 24m placing shares when the sp has risen above the IPO price of 70p?
Answer?
It’s impossible to prevent any of these 24m shares being sold if the will is there
Yet in the first 2 days of trading there has been a negligible amount of shares traded.
—————————————
Could it be that there’s no money to be made due to brokers commission? if they all paid 70p a share.?
But anyway, £22m was raised from the sale of 31m new shares, It’s claimed therefore that the value of the company is now £45.6 m because there are now 65m shares in the company. Does that mean that the original shares were bought for £23.6?
BTW Goosey, you could write the scripts for The Hustle.
Andrew
oh yes it can.
As long as this is what you are offered.
Brilliant isnt it.
Has the affect of keeping the rich richer what what and pip pip.
The link was posted before but perhaps significance missed.
http://www.sportsdirectnews.com/tony-yorke/10561-tis-the-season-for-rangers-folly.php
Is Ashley warning CG?
StevieBC says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 22:18
I have written to SG a couple of times on the mess that is the SFA and response is always the same “we cannot interfere”.
Auldheid:
I’ve worked for some seriously rich people in my life and to a man they have all been,what I would call, tight. There was one multi millionaire who would buy you a coffee in McDonalds and fill his pockets with sachets of sauce, sugar etc on the way out. Totally bonkers.
Ashley, I suspect, is keen to protect his investment and can do without the utter rubbish that comes out of Mr Charles’ big gob.
You just have to go back to Gerard Ratner to realise that one man’s loose ramblings can ruin a company.
I suspect we will see/hear a more subdued Mr Charles in the future.
Andrew Woods says:
Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 23:48
Auldheid:
I’ve worked for some seriously rich people in my life and to a man they have all been,what I would call, tight. There was one multi millionaire who would buy you a coffee in McDonalds and fill his pockets with sachets of sauce, sugar etc on the way out. Totally bonkers.
=====
Andrew
I concour. However the price will go wherever. Given the almost total lack of interest so far I think this is one of these stocks that will enter an ice age of its own. what it means for the investors is up to them. What it means for foward momentum in rangers finances is I think similar, the money they got now is all the money they will ever get.
First up I must say sorry for not posting for close on a month. About 28th November I posted saying “hello I’m a rangers fan, love me! Love me!” and quite remarkably it garnered 154 TU’s. I then buggered off like Charles Green after a sherr ish-yoo until tonight. So thank you for making me feel welcome.
So the boycott of Dundee Utd? I would back the movement within our support who called for it but before people explode with mock indignation please remember that when the SPL were dithering over the fate of Rangers, threats of a boycott were more fashionable than a vajazzle in Essex.
However I disagree with self-appointed leaders of various groups deciding that their opinion is THE opinion and anybody who disagrees is wrong. CG also made a horrendous error by officially joining the club to it by refusing a ticket allocation. Tbh the vast majority of the support was not going to purchase tickets anyway so it was an unnecessary and divisive move, it may have bought him some cheap applause within the rangers support but it further alienated the club from the SPL.
Unfortunately it was the perfect storm; Rangers, away to a club who had be vociferous in their criticism, previous disagreements over tickets, the list goes on… but it really could have been handled so much better by all parties.yes rangers and their support were / are acting churlish but yet again the reaction of the Scottish football community was all wrong. “BAN THEM FROM THE CUP” “WITH HOLD THEIR GATE MONEY” “FINE THEM”, “right good lads, now we have come up with the punishment let’s see if we can find a crime to charge them with”.
As it transpires no rules were broken, you cannot punish a club for NOT taking up an allocation but you can criticize them and that’s fair enough. Rangers’ fans should stop moaning every time someone has a legitimate pop at them. The last time I posted I mentioned changing attitudes within the rangers support and its becoming clear that we are developing precociousness were no one around Ibrox has a sense of humour anymore, remember Ally Mcoist in a mad men sketch? Personally I thought it was quite clever but alas no…
Everyone seems agreed that action should be taken, but some dont like boycott.
Do the opposite. Fill a stadium – Tannadice. No placards or displays needed. A full stadium covered in orange (because everyone has been to the club shop to buy something to support Dundee Utd.)
A protest that would work at so many levels. If you think about it. Might even be a world record – of some sort.
andytwenty3 says:
Friday, December 21, 2012 at 00:11
First up I must
============
Welcome back Andy.
Is it really that big a bug with the gers fans that no one wants to go to the fixture. Or has CG made it so?
Rangers got themselves into a mess by spending tax payers money for a decade or 2 of success.
The club was finished as a result. Thankfully for The Rangers fans the new club was fast tracked back into senior football ahead of other clubs that met the criteria fully. This was after Regan and Doncaster tried every trick to get them into the spl or div 1.
The newco in div 3 is a new club. The fans need to look closer to home and stop having a go at everyone. The SPL should pass a new rule, no club can join or be a member of the SPL if they do not show respect to the other clubs.
ianagain says:
Friday, December 21, 2012 at 00:17
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Generally its just a case of a dog in a corner, keep backing it up eventually it growls and bites back. its pointless petty stuff. Most bears just want to make a gesture of some sort and dundee utd was like manna from heaven for them because of the previous between the clubs. would motherwell or celtic got the same treatment? not a chance.
I think we will see your dog getting angrier as it gets closer to the spl – boycott a cup game by the club , expelled from next years cup, boycott a league game, lose 3 points.
TRFCs management needs to act properly.
a few gers fans on tonight (maybe the mayans were correct 🙂 – just joking) there has been a recent flurry of comments around three main threads – 1) died/no-died argument 2) the share issue 3) the desire to perform actions for better SF.
For #1 or #2 I am not going to comment other than #2 in my opinion is a bit of a waste of time and may even be off topic after all this is not the Scottish financial services monitor. Frankly it is what it is and good luck to the investors (silly people)
for #3 – to me the only issue that should be on our agenda is the restructuring/cleanout of the governing bodies – SFA/SFL/SPL, nothing else – let us work towards that then use the new body to address everything else. I firmly believe that we should have one singular body, chartered with complete running of the game in scotlans, with a separate non-executive oversight committee (think business mgmt with a separate board or government with two houses)
I would even argue that this is something that ALL fans should be able to find common ground – even TRFC, because despite what individually we believe shoudl have happened, we can probably all agree it was and remains completely mishandled, amateurish and mis or even non-communicated.
I would also propose that the oversight committee has strong Fan and non-football participation.
Further that ALL committed meetings, hearings etc are public or minutes published – in this day and age there is no reason for secrecy for a tin pot football league if major governments can publish their proceedings. The only reasonable exception is in discussions of commercial contracts (for competitive reasons),
anyway just my thoughts on a thursday evening….
Andytwenty
The crime was ‘bringing the game into disrepute’. Your post is testament to that view.
Charles Green’s media comments and body posture over the piece about the share issue remind me of George Bush being told airplanes had hit the twin towers. Bush, a fucking idiot as President of the United States, could not disguise what he already knew, Green, a bit cannier but nevertheless caught up in this web of deceit, seems to be operating on the assumption that everyone north of Yorkshire has haggis for brains.