A Blog by James Forrest for TSFM
I am a socialist, and as a socialist I believe in the fundamental goodness of people. Some people find that hard to believe when they read the stuff I write.
I published my first novel recently, on politics and the corrupting nature of it, and it is a deeply cynical book, a book where no-one has clean hands come the end. What has surprised some of those who’ve read it is that I didn’t focus on the lies and smears of the right, but the hypocrisy and deceit of those who claim to be of the left.
Corruption, you see, doesn’t respect political boundaries or points of view. It’s like rainwater. It finds every crack, and gets in there.
My political beliefs revolve around two apparently paradoxical elements; the belief in the inherent decency of people and the need for a strong, and powerful, state. I believe the second underpins the first, and this brings me into conflict with a lot of people, some on the left and some on the right. Too many people see the state as inherently evil, as something that interferes too much in the lives of ordinary people. As something suffocating.
Yet the state exists to protect us. It exists to provide a safety net. It exists to regulate and to oversee. If the state is made up of bad people, if the gears of society are captured by those with malicious or selfish intent, the results are obvious; war, corruption, chaos.
The vast majority of our problems in the modern age can be neatly summed up in two lines from Yeats’ poem “The Second Coming”, which I used to open my novel. “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
We live in a time when those who are protecting their own interests have assumed such power that they’ve cowed the rest of us. They have become a law unto themselves. They have changed the nature of the game, because they have sapped our will to the extent some barely put up a fight anymore. The weak get weaker, and the strong use their strength to crush the rest even more. It is a vicious struggle, a downward spiral.
Society is held together not only by the endeavour and common interests of its citizens but by a collection of laws. We elect the people who make those laws. They do so in our name, and we can remove that right every four years. That is a powerful thing, and we do not appreciate it enough. The present corruption exists because we allow it to exist.
The people around me continue to puzzle over my uncommon interest in the affairs of a football club on the west of Glasgow. My own club plays in the east end. I tell those who ask that my primary interest in the goings-on at the club calling itself Rangers is no longer about football; how could it be, after all? With promotion this year they are still a full two divisions below us, emasculated, skint, weak and unstable. If we were fortunate enough to draw them in cup competition the match would be over, as a tie, by the halfway point … in the first half.
In footballing terms they are an utter irrelevance.
Rangers is more than a football club to me. They are a symbol. Their unfolding calamity is an on-going outrage. What is happening there, what is being allowed to happen, is an offense to decency. It is a stain on the face of our country.
In short, it is a scandal. It is a scandal without parallel in sport.
Yet it’s not just a sports story either. If it was, I might not be so focussed on it. What is happening at Rangers is a colossal failure of governance. It is a damning indictment against the very people who are supposed to oversee our game. It is a disgraceful abrogation of responsibility from those at the top, those who claim to be “running things.”
If this is not a failure of governance it is a result of corruption at the heart of our national sport. It says they are bought and paid for, and I will say no such thing here.
So let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ll say instead that what they are is weak, indecisive, inept and disconnected from reality.
It reminds me of our political class, which has become insular and ignorant about what the public wants, and what it needs. It’s not a wonder parties like UKIP can achieve national vote shares of 25% at local elections. Nigel Farage strikes me as a dog-whistle politician, the kind who knows how to appeal to a select group of voters. He is little different to Charles Green, the man who beguiled Rangers fans into handing over large amounts of money, because he was “standing up for the club.” It is easy to do what he did, easy to do what Farage is doing.
Real leadership requires toughness. Say what you like about the Tories, but they have that in spades. Yeats was right about the worst being full of passionate intensity. Green was. Farage is. Cameron and Osborne personify it in their political outlook.
It is easy to be cowed by blunt force politics, and by “tough talking Yorkshire men” and venomous speeches about “strivers and skivers.” The politics of divide and conquer is the oldest form of politics there is, and it’s no surprise to see it practiced by some of the vested interests in the game here in Scotland. Yet, lest we forget … something significant happened last year. The maligned and the ignored, the weak and the voiceless found something they never realised they had. They discovered that, in a very real sense, the power was in their hands.
Last year, the fans rose up when the governing bodies and the media went all-out to save Rangers from the self-inflicted wounds caused by a decade of cheating, malpractice and ineptitude. I have no problem calling that what it was.
What happened at Rangers seemed incredible, but it was all too predictable, and some of us had been talking about it for years before it hit. The Association seemed caught in the headlights but it would amaze me if they really were as insular and ignorant as they appeared. They must have known how bad the outlook was for Rangers. They just chose to ignore it.
They were aided and abetted by a thoroughly disreputable media, a collection of cowards and compromisers, charlatans and frauds, masquerading as journalists, but who long ago laid aside any claim to be bold investigators and settled for commenting on events as they unfolded. More often than not, with their ill-informed opinions, sometimes due to weaknesses in intellect and others wilfully ignorant, they failed even in that.
Entire newspapers became PR machines for crooks and swindlers. They aided in the scam because they didn’t do their jobs, some because they were lazy, some because they were incompetent and others because they wanted a seat at the table and were willing to sacrifice whatever integrity they once had in exchange for one.
That all of this was embraced by the Rangers fans is amazing to me. They trusted when they should have been asking questions. They closed their eyes, covered their ears and sang their battle tunes at the top of their voices so they wouldn’t have to hear anything they didn’t like. As incredible as I found it then, and still find it now – and now, even more so, when they have already seen the results of it once – I find it pathetic too, and I do feel pity for some of them.
A lot of these people are genuine football fans, and nothing more. They have no interest in the phony narrow nationalism, or the over-blown religion, or the notion of supremacy which manifested itself in a ludicrous statement from McCoist when interviewed recently on Sky.
Some of the Rangers fans look at their team of duds, kids and journeymen, they look at a boardroom of cowards and crooks, they look at a failing manager in his first (and last) job in the game and at a dark future and are not in the least bit impressed by, or interested in, the chest-out arrogance espoused in those ridiculous words “we are the people.” They know full well that their present crisis was made by men like McCoist, and they understand that pretentious posturing is not an act born of strength, but a scrambling around in the gutter, and a symptom of weakness.
They understand their position, and they hate it. And because they care about Rangers, because they value the club, because they cherish those things that made it a great Scottish institution, they want that back. They understand that before the Union Jack waving, Sash singing, poppy wearing, Nazi saluting, Orange element became the public face of their support Rangers meant something else, and that, above all things, is what pains them the most.
People do not hate Rangers. When the country appeared to turn its back last year, they were turning the back on favouritism and the bending of rules. Yet it would be a lie to say that there is not an element of dislike in the gleeful mockery of many rival fans.
But they don’t hate Rangers either. They hate the version of it around which a certain section of the support continues to dance. They hate the version which hates, and so too do many, many, many Rangers supporters, and they definitely deserve better.
David Murray chose not to openly challenge that version. Indeed, he encouraged certain strands of it to flourish and grow, with his “Britishness Days” and his effort to turn the club into the “team that supports the troops.” Other clubs have done as much, if not more, for the British Army than the one that plays out of Ibrox. Other clubs have given more money. Other clubs have lent their support to those on the front lines. They just chose to do it with respect, and with class, and with dignity. They chose to do it in private, understanding that there eventually comes a tipping point between looking after the ends of the soldiers and using them to promote your own.
The army has not battened on to Rangers. Rangers has battened on to them, and although it is unclear when an altruistic motive became darker, what started out as a gesture of solidarity is now used to entrench division and promote a notion of superiority.
Craig Whyte took over from Murray and immediately understood the lure of the “dog whistle.” He knew too that the media would accept whatever he told them, without question, and as he spoke up for “Rangers traditions” he made sure the lunatic fringe was well onside. He met face to face with the hard-core extremists in the support first and made them his praetorian guard. They spoke up for him until the day the club entered administration.
So, whereas Murray pandered to them and Whyte used them to further his own ends, it was only a matter of time before someone suggested to Charles Green that he could use the same tactics to win over the support. He went even further and blatantly promoted and encouraged this mind-set, and stoked the hate and nonsense to frightening new heights. The same people who cheered Whyte to the rafters jumped on board the Big Blue Bus and the results are clear.
Through all of it, the ordinary Rangers fan has seen his club buffered against the rocks, battered, broken, smashed to smithereens and sunk. Now there’s a big hole in the side of the lifeboat, and they are terrified that further tragedies await.
They are right to be concerned. Much of the media is still not telling them what they need to know. The people in charge of their club – the owners who have lied, the former hack who covered up the truth about Whyte and now acts as a mouthpiece for Green, the “club legends” who are content to sup with the devil and take his greasy coin when they should be standing toe-to-toe with the fans – are trying to silence those members of the press who do have facts to present.
How many times now have media outlets been banned from Ibrox for daring to report the truth? The manager who demanded the names of a committee last year defends those inside the walls who are desperate to keep secret the things that are going on. He is either an unprincipled coward, or he is, himself, bought and paid for. The fans suffer for it.
The “inconvenient truth” is still being kept from them, and this denies them any chance to play an active role in their club. Indeed, it is all too possible that they’ve passed a point of no return, and that their club is heading for a new liquidation event and it can no longer be stopped.
In either case, their power has been eroded to the point at which they must feel they have nothing left to do but stand back and watch what happens next.
They are wrong. I am a socialist. I believe in the inherent good of people. I think the ordinary decent Rangers fans are the only people left who can save their club … and the means by which they will do it is as simple as it could be.
They must stand up for “big government.” They must embrace the need for a “strong state.” They must lobby the SFA, and they must trust the SFA and they must get the SFA to follow its own rules and thereby save them from any further harm.
There is a tendency amongst some Celtic fans to see our governing bodies as pro-Rangers. If it is true then those running our game are ruining Scottish football without benefiting the thing they love more. The incalculable harm that has been done to Rangers in the last 20 some months is a direct result of the subservient media and the willingness of the football authorities to be “deaf, dumb and blind.” Those who believe this has actually helped the Ibrox club have not been paying attention in class. It has irrevocably scarred them, and it may yet have played a hand in destroying them once and for all, as a force if not as a club entirely.
For years, the SFA sat and did nothing as a club in their association operated a sectarian signing policy. They did nothing whilst the fans sang sectarian songs. In their failure to act they strengthened those elements of the Rangers support, instead of isolating, alienating and eventually helping to eliminate those who saw that club as a totem pole of division and hate. Their failure over EBT’s, and their lack of scrutiny, led to one of the greatest scandals in the history of sport, and I say that with no equivocation at all. The testimony of their registrations officer in the Lord Nimmo Smith investigation was a disgrace and in years to come it will rank as one of the most disreputable and damaging moments in the association’s history.
The most egregious failures of all were the failures in the so-called “fit and proper person” tests, which allowed first Whyte and then Charles Green to assume controlling positions at Ibrox. They will pass the buck and say the responsibility lies with the club itself, in much the same way as they are content to let the club investigate itself at the present time, but any neutral who looks at this stance knows it is unprincipled and spineless. It’s like letting the defence set the terms at a trial. It is foxes investigating the chicken coop.
It is a blueprint for corruption, and a recipe for disaster.
It is now too late for the SFA to declare Green “unfit”, as it was too late when they finally slapped that title on Craig Whyte. He and his allies own Rangers, and they control its destiny. They can push the club to the wall if they choose, in the final extremity, if that gets them what they want. The time for changing that is past. The damage has already been done. The barbarians are not at the gates. They are inside the walls, and sacking the city.
The SFA will be forced to punish Rangers for the sins of the owners, for the second time in as many years, and whilst it is right that the club face up to that, all the better to send a message to other clubs and other owners, the SFA cannot be allowed to slither off the hook here as though this was none of their doing. Green will skip off into the sunset. Craig Whyte has yet to pay his fine. These people never cared about Scottish football and they don’t care now.
The SFA are supposed to. Our governing body is supposed to govern, for the good of the whole game, and not as a support system for a single club. What they have allowed to happen on their watch is absolutely shameful and if the people responsible were men at all, with any sense of accountability, they would resign en masse.
They can pretend ignorance, but only the truly ignorant would accept that. Craig Whyte was not inside Ibrox a week before RTC and other sites were dismantling his entire business history, with some of the people here doing the work the SFA would not. Whyte himself claims to have made the governing bodies aware of the scale of what was facing the club, and they did nothing at all. Heads should have rolled a year ago.
In October of last year, on this very site, I posted an article in which I wrote:
“Which isn’t to say the due diligence matter isn’t worrying, because, of course, it is. Again, no-one is going to convince me that the SFA has conducted proper due diligence on Charles Green and his backers. No-one will convince me they are satisfied that this club is in safe hands, and that the game in this country will not be rocked by a further implosion at Ibrox. They failed to properly investigate Craig Whyte, because of lax regulations requiring disclosure from the club itself, regulations which are just a joke, but they can be forgiven for that as the press was talking sheer nonsense about him having billions at his disposal, and a lot of people (but not everyone!) were either convinced or wanted to be convinced by him.
To have witnessed what Whyte did, to have witnessed the Duff & Phelps “process” of finding a buyer, and having Green essentially emerge from nowhere, with a hundred unanswered questions as to his background and financing, for the SFA to have given this guy the go ahead, only for it to blow up in their faces later, would annihilate the credibility of the governing body and necessitate resignations at every level. There would be no hiding place.”
There are times when it is fun to be right, but this is not one of them. It is dispiriting and disquieting to have been so on the nose. It scares the Hell out of me, as someone who loves football in this country, to have seen this matter clearly when the people running our game apparently either did not or chose to ignore very real, very obvious, concerns. The Internet Bampots had no special insight or access to information that was denied those at the SFA. We just weren’t prepared to ignore it and pretend that it wasn’t there. There was too much at stake.
I have become convinced that things will never change until the Rangers supporters join us in demanding the full and unabridged truth here. They need to come out from under the bed, and confront their fears. They need to be willing to take the consequences, so that their club can emerge clean from this, and start again, with all this behind them.
And it can all happen with one simple thing. The application of the rules.
The existence of laws comes down to a simple principle; they protect society from those elements within it who are interested only in their own selfish ends. We may cry out at those rules and regulations we see as “restrictive”, but the law was not made to restrict our freedoms but to protect them. Had the SFA years ago acted against Rangers sectarian signing policy, and the songs from the stands, the club would not have mutated to the point where there was no help on hand when they needed it the most. Let’s not kid ourselves about this; Whyte and Green were only able to grab control because the club itself has a dreadful image which put off respectable and responsible buyers. The SFA could have helped change that perception years ago and did nothing.
The SFA could have conducted its own investigation into who Craig Whyte was. They could have asked David Murray for full disclosure when he was running up £80 million of debt, a sum of money that is beyond belief for a single club in a small provincial backwater league. Had they had the guts to do that the club would never have spent itself into oblivion and forced the hand of Lloyds, which led indirectly to their ignominious end.
The SFA could have fully investigated Charles Green and the means by which he took control, instead of rushing through a license. His emergence at the last minute was transparently suspicious and designed to force them into a quick decision, but they did not have to bow to that pressure by making one, without being in possession of the facts, as it is now 100% clear they were not.
Had they asked for every document, had they insisted on legal affidavits and personal securities from investors (and this would have been perfectly legitimate and is common place in other licensing areas) none of this would have come to pass. After Craig Whyte they had a moral responsibility to the rest of the game to get this one right and their failure is without parallel in the history of Scottish football.
As the club hurtles towards a new abyss, names are cropping up which should send a shudder down the spines of every honest, genuine supporter of not only Rangers but every team in the land. The SFA claims that a strong Rangers is essential for the sake of Scottish football, but they have been extraordinarily lax in protecting that club, and therefore the game, from destructive elements. Craig Whyte and Charles Green had dubious personal histories, and the acquisition of the club itself was mired in controversy and scandal. Yet it was allowed.
Neither Green nor Whyte were known to have operated outside the law, yet neither was worthy of trust or stood up to scrutiny. Neither man should ever have been granted the status as fit and proper persons to assume a role in our national sport, and if it is true of them what can we say about the three men who are, presently, being touted as the Great White Hopes for a bright, new Rangers future; Dave King and the Easdale brothers?
King recently cut a deal with the South African government over an on-going dispute over taxes. In other words, he pled guilty and accepted the central plank of their argument; that for years he was engaged in wilfully with-holding vast revenues from their Treasury. The media does not like to put it like that, and the SFA seems willing to ignore it utterly, and this would be scandalous enough. But it does not stop there. HRMC rules – as well as the SFA’s own governance documents – actually bar him from serving on the board of the new club.
Last but not least, aside from being an admitted tax cheat, King is also awaiting trial in South Africa, having been indicted for corruption, forgery and fraud – 300 charges in total. Yet as recently as last week, we were told that the Association was willing to look at him and consider representations from his lawyers. This is almost beyond belief.
If Dave King’s position is untenable, and he is yet to be convicted of a crime, what can we say about the position of the Easdale’s? One of the two brothers, Sandy, has already served jail time. He is a convicted criminal, a fraudster nonetheless, who’s “victim” was the same Treasury who are appealing one case involving the old club and liquidated it entirely over another. This is precisely the kind of “businessman” the fit and proper person test was supposed to weed out, and if the SFA holds its nose here the reek will stink out the halls at Hampden for decades. If King or the Easdale’s are judged fit and proper, then who exactly is the test for? What exactly do you have to do to fail it? How do we explain the existence of laws, when these are not applied?
Pascal says “Law without force is impotent.” The SFA’s weakness has allowed one version of Rangers to destroy itself, and has allowed an existential risk to another. If the next power at Rangers resides in South Africa or Greenock I can say with some certainty that the Association is engaged in an even more dangerous roll of the dice, because the surfacing of fresh scandal will be an ever present risk, and will be of the sort no-one will survive.
The damage to Scottish football will take years to heal. The Scottish game has been through enough trauma. It does not need more. It barely survived the last calamity to hit Rangers. The rest of us should not be forced to pay the price of the next one.
The greater damage will be done to Rangers itself. If the Green crisis ends in another collapse – as it well might; another administration event is a certainty, and another liquidation is a much more likely prospect than it was before 14 February 2012 – the club will once again have to start from the bottom, and this time the reputational damage will be impossible to repair. The club faces internal strife, sporting sanctions, and criminal investigations. The last takeover might be declared a fraud. the Whyte takeover will almost certainly be. The share issue might be invalid, as well as criminal, and the people involved may well end up in jail. Lawsuits could follow from investors, there could be as yet unknown consequences from the Upper Tier Tax Tribunal (thank you Brogan Rogan for pointing out what those might be) and a host of other issues.
Rangers fans must be the loudest voices here. How do you want the world to view your club in years to come? Do you want one to be proud of, or one forever associated with the shame and disgrace of these days gone by? The one which bailed out on its tax obligations. The one with supporters who disgrace your very name. The one which allowed Whyte and Green to take you to the cleaners and send you to the wall. The one which handed over control to one convicted criminal and another awaiting trial. Do you want to be reborn clean, or mired in the muck?
David Murray destroyed your financial stability. He made it so no bank would issue you a line of credit and no investor of note wanted to buy. Craig Whyte liquidated you. Charles Green has cast the future of the Newco into doubt and acted in a manner which has annihilated your credibility with the financial markets for decades to come.
Between these three men, they have taken everything from you, and the press and the people who run the game here, as well as some of your own blindly ignorant fans, have allowed them to do all this and more. Now they conspire to hand the keys to Ibrox to other men of questionable character, who will wreck further havoc on the reputation of the club.
The Scottish Football Association has damaged the game it was supposed to protect, but above all else their greatest failure of governance was a failure to protect one of its biggest clubs from its own excesses and those of its owners.
Rangers fans, the SFA have betrayed your trust, more than the trust of any other club. What you must insist on now is full disclosure and transparency from the powers that be in Hampden. The SFA has to end the charade of allowing your club to handle this in-house. They must hand everything over to an outside agency – whether a legal one, or a footballing body like UEFA – and they must demand co-operation and answers, and threaten to withhold the license if they don’t get them.
You must not be afraid of that. You must embrace it. The men with their hands on the gears at Ibrox are motivated by money, and nothing more. If the license is withdrawn their “investments” are worthless. They cannot risk that.
You must demand that the rules on fit and proper persons are applied, and where necessary even made stronger, to prevent your club falling into unclean hands. You must demand that they protect your reputation from further damage, by getting this all out there and acting accordingly, even if that means your club does not play football for at least a year.
You must be willing to suck it all up, knowing that what will emerge is a Rangers which has been cleansed and moves forward with honour, and dignity, led by custodians who treasure it rather than those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
The Rangers Standard has recently emerged as a genuine voice for those in your support who are sick and tired of what Rangers has become, and want it restored to something that is worthy of the love and respect in which you hold it. On that website, there are discussions about the kind of club you seek to be and about whether the institution of Rangers is about more than just football.
If that’s how you feel about it then you know it is about more than how many titles the club can claim, about more than just results on the park, about more than just the game. Rangers, like Celtic, is an idea. It has to be something you are proud of.
I am a socialist, but one with a fevered imagination and a tendency to write very dark things. This piece won’t have been good reading for some of you (perhaps all of you haha!) but I think there’s more hope in here than in other things I’ve written.
In spite of everything that’s come to pass, I still believe. I believe in Scottish football. I believe in our system of football governance, even if those who are working in it are failing on some level.
In society, as much as we strain against them, laws exist for our protection. To fail to enforce them is to leave us at the mercy of those elements who would do us harm. The rules of football ensure the protection of all clubs, not just a few.
The failure to enforce the rules has never had graver consequences than here in Scotland. The irony is that bending and breaking them has hurt the one club those violations were designed to help. It cannot be allowed to happen again.
The rules must be applied without fear or favour.
The best must find their conviction, and their passionate intensity once more.
James is a co-editor of the On Fields of Green Blog http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/
angus1983 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 08:51
8 1 Rate This
Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Thursday, May 16, 2013 at 22:49
PAWLETT, however, is a cheat plain and simple!
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I don’t like this MSM-driven witch hunt against the boy Pawlett one little bit. The loon’s been all over the papers as if he was the only player ever to go down easily in the box.
It smacks of the 1980s-to-date hounding of Nelly Simpson, which was also completely out of order.
Dundee’s problem (perhaps soon to be resolved upwards anyway) is that TRFC’s hooley last summer left them with no time to prepare for a season in the SPL, not that a soft penalty was given against them.
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Dundee’s problem was being mince for 75% of the season – plain and simple.
Pawlett is a serial diver, and rather than a flat two game suspension everytime he does it, maybe the bans should be doubled on each occasion for this type of unsportsman like offence. That would cut it out tout sweet.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:01
£6m!
Flippin’ heck, for that you could buy an entire Scottish Institution, part of the fabric of our society, and have enough left over for a fish supper and a taxi home.
@zerotolerance1903
Henrik Larsson was also an expert at “going down easily” by running across the defender then making the most of any perceived brush by the shoulder or thigh. Michael Owen had the similar technique and was successful with it.
Larsson & Owen were just much better at it than Pawlett or my particular bug bear, Barry Robson when he was at United.
readcelt says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 07:32
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The required wording for all MSM articles on the Govan team is:
“..Rangers, who are currently in the process of being liquidated…”
That is the position at present – BDO are liquidating Rangers and will continue in that job until it is done and they have recovered everything they can for the creditors.
I would hazard a guess that process is unlikely to be completed before 2018 at the earliest and could in fact take longer than the new club’s stated timescale for reaching a European final.
A bit like Walter Cronkite and his daily toll of the Vietnam dead, our first footballing thought for the day should be “Rangers are being liquidated today”. Maybe the Rev Paul Mitchell could be persuaded to impart it on BBC Shortbread’s Good Morning Scotland?
54p to 0
Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:43
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Pawlett reminds me of the great Rangers (whatever happened to them?) stalwart, John McDonald who regularly threw himself to the ground in the 80s, usually with the desired effect.
Not for nothing was he known as Polaris
Let’s just see how it Pancelticas out, eh.
Anyone wanna to buy a job lot of giant Meccano house kits for a quid? Anyone?
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:01
=========================================
Still no word on the 4 clubs who’ve allegedly complained that Hearts should have entered administration,even though at this time they don’t seem to doing anything wrong?.
Listening to the radio this morning and the sports reporter is on telling us what could happen if UBIG is declared bankrupt.what the alternatives are.
These same reporters have said nothing wrt TRFC and its predecessors for a year.All of a sudden they’re on the case.They even rolled out Neil Patey,for god sake.
IF Hearts enter admin before the season ends,points deducted and relegation follows.
IF Hearts enter admin after the season ends then they start next season with a points deduction.
Everyone is assuming the worst.Hearts may not enter administration at all.
ianagain says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 01:46
12
0
Rate This
Humble Pie says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 01:07
“It’s a big club and you ain’t in it !”.
HP thank you thank you so much for that. This year on a plane I read one of his books/biographies and went into such fits of laughter that everyone around wanted to know what I was reading as a result a least 10 more folk GET IT.
What a great polemical character. George Carlin makes Connelly sound like a smoothy.
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You must mean James? Billy has not uttered a word of radical satire for decades…….if ever.
Night Terror says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:46
————
Angus was 100% correct, the boy is coming in for far too much critisism compared to others that do the same thing. It was a big game and that is why it was picked up but I get the feeling he is an easy target as an Aberdeen player and that is wrong, he made a mistake, let us see if he learns from it. In the meantime, leave him alone.
NT, sorry but you are comparing apples with oranges. Enough said!
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Thursday, May 16, 2013 at 22:30
While I’m not happy seeing other clubs do this while mine tries to balance the books, and I’m even less happy when my club inexpertly launched their speculate-to-accumulate approach over a decade ago, from which we are still trying to recover, I’m even less happy about the alternatives on offer to try and prevent it.
I have some sympathy for the authorities on this, as for them to get involved in the financial minutae of every club as some kind of regulator is a nightmare for them – we’ve already seen how professionals in this field were unable to do this job in the City with banks, insurance and any other company that sought to do a bit of financial engineering to line their pock – err, increase shareholder value.
Football is a brutally competitive sport/business hybrid with irrational affinities on all sides. Any ruling body that attempts to step in at the point where legitimate financial advantage becomes unfair financial advantage is entering a world of pain, rational and irrational.
The complexity and tendency to abuse and evasion of financial regulations leaves me with no faith in their efficacy, even assuming the ultimate aim is desirable. Those who propose Financial Fair Play will solve all of our problems seem to ignore the evidence of general failure of financial regulation and the unsuitability of current football regulators to regulate anything very much.
Why introduce a new regulatory system when it seems clear that football, of all businesses, is incapable of making it work?
The problem that FFP is trying to resolve is the prevention of clubs overextending themselves and then coming crashing down when things go wrong. Is this actually a problem? The only problem I see is that clubs who come unstuck financially after taking huge risks are then subject to attempts by the ruling bodies to save them or cushion their fall.
If clubs are insulated from the effects of their financial misadventures, they have an incentive to attempt them. And attempt them again.
A clear example of a club blowing up and being made to feel the full consequences of their risky actions is sufficient deterrent to others from attempting the same business plan. It is in the application of harsh but fair rules on insolvency, together with a clear plan as to how a liquidated club may work its way back to league football, that I would rather those with the best interests of the game focused their efforts.
FFP is a red herring. Let clubs speculate all they want on the clear understanding that if they fail the consequences will be severe and non-negotiable.
madbhoy24941 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:04
Oh really?
It is interesting to me how little comment there is in relation to the boardroom ousting of the Chairman & a non-exec, both of whom, as I understand it, were well know and liked by “City investors”, only to be replaced by AN Other shareholder with longstanding links to Green’s team and another guy who is half of the colourful Easdales Bros double act. People like “Surrender, no” Johnston are given a free run to complain about other directors, but the ship went off-course on their watch.
Why are no journalists asking questions relating to this boardroom coup? Why haven’t they spoken to the institutional investors who bought the Green and Malcolm Murray story on their roadshows, but now see both of the two main business leaders promoting the IPO handed their cards within 6 months of flotation, coinciding with a 20% loss against launch price or 40% drop from peak?
Weird.
madbhoy24941 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:04
Oh really?
Which is the apple and which is the orange? What are the key differences between the two?
john clarke says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 00:17
================================
Come on, didn’t the Herald and other papers have full-blown, virtually free advertising for Rangers season tickets about this time last year? Hardly fair to jump on one guy for this.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:01
Hearts are operating normally and within the law at this time, Come Monday morning, they will have completed the season and can (hopefully) look forward to next – with or without a points deduction. If the SFA / SPL relegate Hearts as things stand today, I would expect they will want their day in court.
=====================================
My team will benefit from Hearts being docked points this season, lets get that out in the open. Admin, when done properly is a messy and horrible event for any team and will leave Hearts playing with kids and injury prone pros for a while (I should know).
But to say Hearts have been operating normally and within the law, while they failed to pay staff on time on several occasions is stretching the truth a little. Financial worries Gorgie way are well publicised and have been known for years.
Make no mistake, the SPL consulting lawyers about their own rules book smacks of looking for excuses to NOT relegate Hearts, as I am sure they won’t want to loose the Edinburgh derby.
Best chance of survival is to remain in the SPL, this is due to the financial realities outside the SPL, hence the need for revision of money throughout scottish football.
But, failure to act in a proper manner will only make the SPL look even more pathetic.
IF, Hearts are not relegated then go into admin during the off season, we could be in a situation where they end up with no stadium, what happens then? Can they be granted a licence? Do they even survive? Do Morton become club 12 and become the league whipping boys for the amusement of the other safe SPL teams?
If Hearts are relegated then thats even worse, failure to provide assurances that they will be able to complete the season saw Livingston and Gretna placed in the 3rd Div by the SFL, to mitigate any potential problems, failure to provide a financial bond saw Gretna kicked out of the League. Can Hearts provide any assurances?
For clarity, there were no rules about admin when Dundee chased the dream and spent money it didn’t have (players going on frees to Rangers, and BOS / Masterton calling in the debts when we refused to sell players to the ibrox team at a price they determined didn’t help either).
Second time around the season had already started, hence the 25pt penalty decided by the other clubs in a committee.
Hearts have complicated the situation by muddying the waters over who/what owns the club, this is deliberate obfuscation, the points penalty should be applied and rules followed points deducted this season.
But, we all know how good the football authorities are at following the rules!
Night Terror says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:10
Which is the apple and which is the orange? What are the key differences between the two?
Apples dont go disrupting the queen’s highways
@paulsatim
very poor
Night Terror says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:46
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@zerotolerance1903
Henrik Larsson was also an expert at “going down easily” by running across the defender then making the most of any perceived brush by the shoulder or thigh. Michael Owen had the similar technique and was successful with it.
Larsson & Owen were just much better at it than Pawlett or my particular bug bear, Barry Robson when he was at United.
—————————————————————————————————————-
Something tells me you will be attracting a fair number of TDs for that one NT!
I think you more than have a point. A wonderful player in many ways, and Larsson’s ability to work out percentages was phenomenal. Any less than 70/30 in his favour he went down like a roll of lino from the merest contact…….. whilst on the halfway line, a firm smack with a shovel would barely register a flinch, yet the refs bought it every time…..I can’t remember him ever not getting a penalty for laying down in the box……no doubt the watching tic fans can put that right? 😉
OT,
but a wee discussion on Twitter this morning:
Gregory Ioannidis @LawTop20 Protected account 1h
BBC News – Why is violent crime so rare in Iceland? http://bbc.in/YZ1o8F
Bryan McManus @BryanMc1978 1h
@LawTop20 you have obviously never been to the one in Possil !
@arabest1
Thumbs make me laugh. Any post that gets an overwhelming amount either way is usually ludicrous or contains enough what-they-want-to-hear that it’s swallowed whole and provides the consumer with a warm satisfying glow.
But back to moral outrage at those dirty divers – it was notable that Barry Robson’s, ahem, technique, in this area improved greatly when he moved to Celtic.
Before I am accused of moral outrage, I should state that I wish someone at United had sat him down and said – Barry, you’re embarrassing yourself and us – If you’re going to dive, you need to get a whole lot better at it. Here, have a look at this video of Larsson & Owen to see how it’s done.
Night Terror says: Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:46
You say potato, I say potato…. actually that doesn’t work written down does it…?
Re players running across others – works both ways, you see plenty of defenders deliberately running across the back of a player when the ball’s already gone, especially if they are fast players like Owen & Larsson. You ever see a tap-tackle in rugby? The slightest touch can be enough to trip the players over his own legs so even if it is legitimate, it sometimes looks soft.
jockybhoy says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:29
I’m not sure how that works both ways.
Are you saying because a player, Larsson for example, is sometimes fouled it’s OK for him to go down when not fouled?
I think people are overplaying the immediacy of the threat to Hearts from the bankruptcy of Ukio Bankas. Whilst there is ultimately the threat that the loan will be “called in” this is unlikely to happen immediately if the administrator is doing their job properly! Hearts loan will not be neither the largest nor the most pressing issue that they face.
The bank that you owe money to going bust is not an insolvency event for you – otherwise half of us would have been insolvent a couple of years back when RBS and BOS went breasts up. More often than not your loan will be sold (as an asset) to another bank, to whom you will then make your repayments.
Also, Ukio is a largish bank, has branches, retail and account holders, a lending portfolio, provides asset management services, etc. The administrator will be going through all of that and looking into what can be salvaged, how best creditors can be served, etc. This will not be a quick process and the bits that need to be done quickly will be in relation to depositors.
I would be really surprised if Hearts went into administration before the end of the season, if at all, as a result of the insolvency of Ukio Bankas.
UBIG is a similar but also slightly different kettle of fish. Whilst UBIG is Heart’s major shareholder, it is an investment management company holding shares in lots of companies. Hearts is just one of their portfolio of investments and as such can be sold to pay of that companies creditors. Would it just be the case that the shares of Hearts are an asset which could, even would,sold without Hearts having an insolvency event themselves.
The analogy here is would you have regarded Rangers as having an insolvency event if it had been SDM/MIH going bust rather than RFC Plc? In this situation wouldn’t it just have been the case the shares in RFC would have been sold to meet SDM/MIH creditors.
IF HMFC have stabilised their day to day operations and cashflow i.e. have started operating in a sustainable manner, then I doubt whether they will go into administration at all.
Should say retail and cororpate account holders
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:00
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:01
=========================================
Still no word on the 4 clubs who’ve allegedly complained that Hearts should have entered administration,even though at this time they don’t seem to doing anything wrong?.
……………………………………………..
Everybody stop…..4 clubs have complained about Hearts?…WHO? why 4? at a guess Dundee and Morton I could understand….but what would be in it for the other 2…whoever they might be?
I guess if Hearts changed their name to SEVCO fc the 4 would have said f**k all!
The diving thing, thought Bomber was chucking it if he got sanctioned?
There are no prizes for staying on your feet when fouled in the box, I’m afraid it’s part of the game now. Only a very good ref will give a foul if a striker stays on his feet to try and get a shot off, the fact that he was impaired in doing so is seldom rewarded unless he falls over. And only well rehearsed falling looks acceptable, there are a few that go down like a high flat and may even get their foul if said ref is looking to give them a hand.
Anyway it’s NL’s fault, that shameless heeder he took in front of the bear pit a few years back started the trend ( I joke of course).
arabest1 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:18
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Always? Really?
Season 2001-02 (I think) – Motherwell at Celtic Park, Larsson moves on to an inch-perfect pass from Thompson -the defenders are nowhere and he goes to round Gordon Marshall. Marshall grabs – that’s GRABS, not ‘brushes’ – Larsson’s ankle, bringing him down. Clear penalty and probable red card for Marshall. Even the linesman thinks so and indicates such.
Except of course in the eyes of I. (for idiot) Brines, who is refereeing his first ever game at Celtic Park. He then promptly books Larsson for diving. The first of many occasions where Brines is the centre of attention as opposed to the match itself.
i wonder if Hearts fans will still rub the 5-1 cup final in the noses of Hibees, even although it is Hibs and the Edinburgh derby that will ensure that they stay in the SPL!
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:26
OT,
but a wee discussion on Twitter this morning:
Gregory Ioannidis @LawTop20 Protected account 1h
BBC News – Why is violent crime so rare in Iceland? http://bbc.in/YZ1o8F
Bryan McManus @BryanMc1978 1h
@LawTop20 you have obviously never been to the one in Possil !
………………………………………..
I had the honour of working part time in the coop in Possil when studying for my highers back in the early 80’s….wow what a life education that was…
I should point out that when I said ‘many occasions’ in my post above, I did not mean simply involving Celtic. Jambos will recall his disastrous performance in an Edinburgh derby around 2005-06. Even followers of the former RFC will recall a match at Tannadice where he proved his non-bias – and how!
parmahamster says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:47
……………………………..
Please don’t start me on Brines…..he is a one man industry responsible for the huge increase in practcing therapists in Glasgow!
newtz says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 08:22
Thanks for that Newtz. When I saw it previously I just glazed over. Interesting to see someone is keeping a record of all the business interconnections of the characters involved. It probably started out as an A4 piece of paper and now they’re onto using a bedsheet.
My ‘hunch’ concerning Paul Sykes may have been a little stupid. Bit of a sting there but nothing to dampen my enthusiasm. The pattern appearing to emerge is a cast of businessmen who are not really in business to do business. They simply set out to acquire businesses then dispose of them and in the process make some kind of profit. They’re not interested in running the business really, That’s the taskload of people who have to work for a living.
During the nineties people got rich very quickly doing that sort of thing but in a falling and depressed market that won’t work anymore. Perhaps the new approach is to buy businesses that are ailing and then crash them, selling off the spare parts in the aftermath. That is where the Hearts problems are a real issue. The tycoons are all gone or in jail. That lovely lucrative land near the centre of Edinburgh or in Govan however is a very tangible asset. Football clubs, being run by Football Men, are perhaps easy meat for this approach.
So say your spiv goes to an oil rich Middle Eastern business consortium and says, “stock markets flat, so here’s a way you can make your wealth do work for you”. Buy businesses, crash them, pick up the assets at a low cost and sell them on for a substantial profit. Mr. Greedy says “yes please, where do I sign”.
On a smaller scale a flat market might make company pension funds attractive. We’ve already seen how funds can make ‘investments’ that turn sour. Prudence just isn’t an option. These guys are fighting for their lives, or should I say, their houses in Monaco or the South of France. I’m not sure they really care about old age pensioners never mind football supporters.
All this financial chaos can take place and there’s nothing much anyone can do about it apparently. Thats what happens when rules become blurred and the governing bodies lose credibility.
So back to Charlotte. What about this post.
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Monday, May 13, 2013 at 00:03
…Thanks for the info. I just wondered if Jack had a relationship with SDM then a word would surely have been whispered in his direction.
Then again, perhaps Craig was the better client – given their mutal appreciation for brokers and Jacks keen interest in hunting out a takeover target with FSA licenses which could be exported via the Caymans.
____________
What are the FSA licenses. Didn’t know the FSA issued licenses, I thought they issued rulings. Must be a licence to operate a financial concern of some description. If we are being drip fed erroneous clues, what particular cul de sac was this comment intended to take us down?
arabest1.
2 from memory, both against motherwell.
at parkhead he rounded gordon marshall and was tripped. the referee booked larsson for diving. why would anyone especially larsson dive when he was about to roll the ball into an empty net.
at fir park he was hacked down in the penalty box and the referee waved play on. to rub salt into the wound the motherwell player made the diving gesture to larsson. larsson jumped back to his feet and confronted the motherwell player. this was the angriest i have ever seen him.
but no doubt these things even themselves out.
i can remember when tom forsyth played for rangers and he hacked down a motherwell player. “the referee indicated that the player had dived. it is the type of dive a man takes when he is hit across the back of the legs with a baseball bat”.
the quote was from hugh mcilvaney the observer journalist in his match report.
From the Rangers website yesterday, Interview with Andy Kerr head of one of the Rangers supporters clubs.
“Season ticket revenue is such a major source of income for the club, it will make up a big percentage of our income at the moment and over the summer.
“You don’t want to say that we rely on it but, nevertheless, it is very important.”
Let have a paraphrases competitions to see who can best put this crap into context……
And can anyone remember back when the De Boars were playing ten years back, I can’t remember who said it but it was common knowledge that Frank was on a much smaller contract than Ronald was someone in the media referred to it as he’s on bus fare money.
Gym Trainer possibly?
zerotolerance1903 says: Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:40
——————————
I appreciate your positive outlook for Hearts. However I see the UBIG relationship slightly differently.
On one side, Hearts have been operating without UBIG support for the last 16 months (good) and Hearts are a relatively small part of the UBIG setup (good). So no sanction (good)
The alternative view is that Hearts owe Ukio £15M and UBIG £10M. The Ukio debt has already been classed as bad debt unlikely to ever be paid off hence it didn’t get switched to Siauliu as a “good asset” (bad). Also Hearts have received £40M of financial (and sporting) benefit from UBIG in DFE swaps and Debt forgiveness which was money that UBIG borrowed from Ukio. Therefore Hearts are responsible for between £40M and £65M of UBIG’s debts with Ukio, thus are a significant part of the reason why both companies are in deep merde.
It is up to the SPL board to determine if 1) Hearts fall foul of Rule A.12 (Group undertakings) and 2) if yesterday’s events in Lithuania constitute an insolvency event as defined in the SPL rules
I have to admit, i have little sympathy with Hearts plight.
the club has been run as an absolute shambles under Vlad.
However, i’ve no wish to see the rules bent to punish them (or save them) just as I had no desire for this last year.
Hearts are not yet in Admin – yeah, it’s almost a 100% certainty to happen, but if it doesn’t happen before the final whistle on Sunday, then they will remain in the SPL for next season – of course, that means they have to survive the summer and not go from admin to liquidation.
The club should survive – and even if Tynie is sold separately from the club I imagine teh new owners will probably want a tenant for at least 1 year while planning permission/plans/developments are put in place, after that Hearts could rent Murrayfield
So, it’s by no means certain that hearts will not exit admin without the need for liquidation.
However, if hearts are liquidated, and someone starts a “new hearts” and they apply for SFA/SFL/SPL membership – then i hope they are told to start in the east of scotland league – until they have proven they are a sustainable/viable club who have built up a trading history and who, by senior league participation, do not put the senior game at further risk/danger.
this is what should have happened with Sevco – but 2 wrongs do not make a right.
still, a long way to go for Hearts (the club and company !!) I expect the club will be bought but will no longer own the stadium
mullach says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:59
What are the FSA licenses. Didn’t know the FSA issued licenses, I thought they issued rulings. Must be a licence to operate a financial concern of some description. If we are being drip fed erroneous clues, what particular cul de sac was this comment intended to take us down?
=======================================
Was the FSA license not for the failed RFC credit card?
FSA licenses = authorised to carry out regulated activities as per The Financial Services & Markets Act 2000 (FSMA).
FSMA is concerned with the regulation of financial services and markets in the UK . Under Section 19 of FSMA, any person who carries on a regulated activity in the UK must be authorised by the FSA or exempt (an appointed representative or some other exemption). Breach of section 19 may be a criminal offence and punishable on indictment by a maximum term of two years imprisonment and/or a fine.
You can find the a description of what those activities are here: http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/about-authorisation/do-i-need-to-be-authorised
By the way the FSA, for this purpose, is now the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) since 1st April.
Night Terror says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:33
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jockybhoy says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:29
Re players running across others – works both ways, you see plenty of defenders deliberately running across the back of a player when the ball’s already gone, especially if they are fast players like Owen & Larsson. You ever see a tap-tackle in rugby? The slightest touch can be enough to trip the players over his own legs so even if it is legitimate, it sometimes looks soft.
I’m not sure how that works both ways.
Are you saying because a player, Larsson for example, is sometimes fouled it’s OK for him to go down when not fouled?
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I heard John Hartson on the radio on Tuesday night arguing exactly this. ‘if there is contact, go down its not cheating’. Turns the game into something akin to wrestling. I once heard Billy Dodds admit the same, its often describes a ‘professionalism’ or ‘using your experience’. Its outrageous cheating! (unless its my team then its getting our own back. 😉 )
Impressed you took up the challange Parma……I sense the simmering injustice at Henrik not getting that pen at Fir Park. But he did get dozens of others, and of course countless freekicks around the box form the same method. 😉
gerrylentils says:
You can remember them both gerry? Wow, just wow! 😉
Perhaps a little OT. Browsing past Duff & Phelps website and this little snippet jumped out.
http://www.duffandphelps.com/expertise/publications/Pages/BlogEntryDetail.aspx?itemid=11&list=blogs
“ ……. A recent survey revealed that over 80 percent of corporations are migrating their data to offsite cloud computing storage sites. Clearly the “going paperless” trend continues to build momentum; for financial, tax and treasury officers, storing records in “the cloud” has broad implications when it comes to defending a corporation’s past activities for transaction, income tax and unclaimed property audits. ……”
“ …… At Duff & Phelps we assist companies to ensure they are “meeting, but not exceeding” their unclaimed property reporting obligations. ….”
A lot of what’s going on down Govan way is “up in the clouds”, but this route would massively help TRFC on cutting costs on shredder companies. I wonder how safe these “in the clouds” sites are from hackers?
monsieurbunny says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:11
—–
Grant’s phrase ‘he knows, and I know’ just stuck out a bit as a really overt attempt to influence people who might be wavering about buying season tickets.
It just annoyed me.
easyJambo says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:02
I appreciate your positive outlook for Hearts. However I see the UBIG relationship slightly differently.
On one side, Hearts have been operating without UBIG support for the last 16 months (good) and Hearts are a relatively small part of the UBIG setup (good). So no sanction (good)
The alternative view is that Hearts owe Ukio £15M and UBIG £10M. The Ukio debt has already been classed as bad debt unlikely to ever be paid off hence it didn’t get switched to Siauliu as a “good asset” (bad). Also Hearts have received £40M of financial (and sporting) benefit from UBIG in DFE swaps and Debt forgiveness which was money that UBIG borrowed from Ukio. Therefore Hearts are responsible for between £40M and £65M of UBIG’s debts with Ukio, thus are a significant part of the reason why both companies are in deep merde.
It is up to the SPL board to determine if 1) Hearts fall foul of Rule A.12 (Group undertakings) and 2) if yesterday’s events in Lithuania constitute an insolvency event as defined in the SPL rules
_________________________________________________________________________
Regardless of how the debt came about or it’s quantum the administrators of Ukio Bankas have a fairly straightforward task. What do I have over HMFC and what can I get for it, with the loan they can a) write it off b) renegotiate and look for repayment eventually c) sell it (for a discount on book value) to another lender d) force HMFC into administration by calling it in and see what they get from the administration or e) force the sale of assets used as security. They will almost certainly go for option c or e depending on which releases the greater value.
Option e is obviously a route for aspiring new owners to get a hook into the Club and option e appears to be approx £6 million, so potentially you can acquire the UB debt for 40p in the pound.
As regards UBIG any DFE/Debt forgiveness is possibly irrelevant. The DFE gives them shares that they can hold or sell for whatever value they can get, all that does is change Heart’s shareholders not their underlying finances. Debt forgiven, if done legally, is gone forever.
As for debt with UBIG, I thought that had been transferred to Ukio along with the accompanying security over Tynecastle.
Am I positive over Hearts outlook, I’m not sure. I think they are salvagable, without an insolvency debt, if there are “maroon knights” willing to pony up cash in a manner that the Rangers-minded businessmen were not. Acquire the shares from UBIG administrators (although they are not in administration yet) and the loans from Ukio Bankas administrators. I bet a deal could be done in the region of £15-20 million.
Back on the subject of FSA/FCA licensing.
It would no doubt be easier for Whyte to acquire a company that was already licensed than to convince the regulator that a new venture of his should be approved to carry out regulated activities.
I would imagine that he would have to also not take a role that would require him to meet the FCA’s approved person test!
Chopping and changing topics again.
@easyjambo
If Lithuanians have done a good bank/bad bank thing with Ukio’s assets and Hearts debt is in the “bad bank” then resolution of that debt will probably take years.
My main point wasn’t that there was no threat to Hearts from Lithuanian insolvency events, it was that there is no IMMEDIATE threat from it. IMHO there is no way HMFC will encounter an insolvency event before the end of the season and I’m not convinced that it would even be as early as this summer – albeit that would be the right time for any propspective buyer to make their move.
Night Terror says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:10
madbhoy24941 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:04
NT, sorry but you are comparing apples with oranges. Enough said!
Oh really?
Which is the apple and which is the orange? What are the key differences between the two?
———————————-
We have opinions that are at opposite ends of the argument, I see no benefit in either of us attemping to justify our position in this respect. This is why I ended by saying “enough said”. You and Arabest want to continue that discussion, fine, I don’t. I will leave that to others as I cannot discuss this point where someone believes Larsson was a cheat, I’m sorry but I don’t want to start a discussion from that base point. I believe the 2 incidents are poles apart.
Last one on Hearts for now.
In addition to my previous post. If a prospective buyer can agree a satisfactory price with Ukio Bankas administrators to acquire the secured debt [or alternatively HMFC are somehow in a position to service that debt instead] and with UBIG to acquire shares then avoidance of administration by HMFC should be a possibility.
Club would still need to settle with HMRC of course.
arabest1 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:21
………………………………
I can honestly say Henrik to my knowledge was never a player who had the word ‘dive’ in any part of his thought process.
There are and has been Celtic players who have…and I despise it…
The best player you will ever see who knew exactly how to gain a foul or Pen….was Alan Shearer…if you get teh chance have a look…he knew exactly were a defender was…and he admitted that in the box he would simply wait for the contact and offer no resistence whatsoever!
all pros do it…the best know how to do it well…whether we like it or not…that ain’t cheating..
Those players on the other hand who feign injury or contact are cheats….to many to list!
bogsdollox says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 01:08
14 0 Rate This
Are you forgetting that the tax debt arose from an illegal split of the players remuneration between the UK and Lithuania so that although the players were working here in the UK a substantial proportion of the income was taxed in Lithuania thus avoiding PAYE &NI.
____________________
Actually, yes I was forgetting!
Still wasn’t as egregious as RFC transgressions. The players were Lithuanian nationals, employed by a Lithuanian group, and they were paying tax in Lithuania as far as I am aware. Wasn’t it related to genuine loan players as well?
So while I have no doubt that HMRC made the right determination and the rules are clear, I would concede the possibility that in the minds of those running HMFC there could well have been genuine ambiguity and confusion over the requirements, rather than clear evasion or even deliberate avoidance.
And HMFC made efforts (and are making efforts) to stump up. It is one thing to ‘mistakenly’ interpret the rules in your favour and then pay what is owed when your mistake is brought to light. It is another thing entirely to corkscrew your pay structure so as to blatantly flout the spirit and intent of Taxation law.
gerrylentils says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:01
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gerry. In reference to the Fir Park incident, that match was as much memorable for the Mjallby goal which wasn’t given, as well as the penalty which also wasn’t.
The referee in question? Should come as no surprise to learn that it was Shug Bonkers of Dallas, mentor of Brines.
With all that’s going on (CF, EGM, HMFC, DAFC etc), we want to talk about whether penalties were deserved or not!! Really?!?!
nawlite says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:00
With all that’s going on (CF, EGM, HMFC, DAFC etc), we want to talk about whether penalties were deserved or not!! Really?!?!
____________________________________________________________________
Well said. Have posted a bunch of things today that no one seems that interested in, so I’ll stop.
If we’re just going to spend Friday discussing dodgy penalties then as a non-OF fan I can assure you that I have a lot more to contribute than Celtic fans whinging that Henke didn’t get one at Motherwell once!
Statement Extracts – 13 April
“The board has announced today it is to commission an independent examination and report in view of recent allegations in the media concerning the chief executive, Charles Green, the commercial director, Imran Ahmad, and their management of the club.
“The decision to commission the examination was taken unanimously by those in attendance at today’s meeting including non-executive and executive directors.
“The independent report will be commissioned and completed as speedily as possible and presented directly to the non-executive directors of the company.
“The chief executive will not be involved in the conduct of the examination.
Well – 17 May
That`ll be 5 weeks tomorrow – 5 Weeks and nothing passed since – Except
CG Backers have suddenly come out of the woodwork to remove directors that supported an inquiry
Wonder why that could be? 😉
Clearly they`re afraid of a proper inquiry disclosure – But why are the MSM prancing to their tune?
The most outrageous effort of cheating I have seen was by Kevin Thompson….who had to throw his left leg 3 foot to the left at a 45 degree angle in order to try and make contact with Samaras as he was running past him…3 foot away…
Then there was the funniest…Kris..(he’s behind you…by 3 yards) Boyd up at Tannadice…the Utd defender (I think it was big Dareen Dodds) gave up chasing…Boyd didn’t realise this and threw himself to the floor as if tripped…and then tried to claim a foul….the word FUD was created for such a situation.
Then we have the saddest….big Kyle Lafferty suddenly holding his face and dropping like a brick when Charlie Mulgrew spoke to him while playing for Aberdeen….or Kyle Lafferty falling like a brick and holding his face when Scott Brown pushed his forehead against his stomach?
Re Hearts:
If this wasn’t so serious, it would be absolutely hilarious! Punishment for an insolvency event applies for an insolvency event of a “Club”. The SPL’s definition of a “Club” is coming back to haunt them.
The SPL rules refer to a “Club” [once again: note the capitalisation] in this way:
Now, my understanding of the LNS ruling is that the former owner & operator of Rangers FC was deemed to be The Rangers Football Club PLC (now RFC 2012 plc). It did not regard (or totally ignored) the obvious meaning that the owner & operator of Rangers FC was Rangers Group Ltd (formally Wavetower Ltd) – where, of course, in the real world Rangers FC is/was simply The Rangers Football Club PLC.
Having accepted the LNS determination (however “odd” it may have been), it would seem a rather perverse decision by the SPL if they were to consider Hearts FC’s owner & operator to be UBIG and NOT simply Heart of Midlothian PLC. In fact, if the SPL attempt to penalise Hearts for its parent company’s insolvency event, you can be absolutely certain that they will use the LNS judgement to fight their corner.
On the other hand…
If the SPL do not penalise Hearts for its parent company’s insolvency event, I would imagine Dundee would (quite rightly IMO) take little time in persuading a judge that the LNS decision was complete & utter nonsense.
Interesting conundrum for the SPL legals to consider.
zerotolerance1903 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:06
………………………………….
Wow there cowboy!…your selective descripion of the situation is neither correct or fair..
This is not my blog or yours…it is for all to contribute…it doesn;t always have to be about a particular subject and it doesn’t always have to be serious high brow material..
The fact an Aberdeen fan started the ball rolling by suggesting young Pawlett was being unfairly treated and others have decided to agree or disagree seems to have passed you by…and its the big bad fault of Celtic fans who are doing nothing more than having a debate about cheating in football…
I think you will find there are fans of different clubs on a slow news day just chewing some fat…
So chill out….it’s Friday after all!
Larsson was certainly guilty of winning penalties and free kicks but I think he developed the technique as a result of being constantly battered with baseball bats. His opponents new he was skillful and so resorted to other tactics. Larsson adjusted his tactics to suit. Its up to the referees and their mentors to keep a grip on this but its an ongoing issue and won’t go away in a sport that has so much contact.
A fair discussion for TSFM I think but the debate on here is varied and eclectic, that what makes it a good read.
Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:03
“Was the FSA license not for the failed RFC credit card”?
————
Could you elaborate a little please. I have a reasonable background knowledge but often the detail escapes me.
zerotolerance1903 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:21
“FSA licenses = authorised to carry out regulated activities as per The Financial Services & Markets Act 2000 (FSMA)”.
————
Excellent Zero. I’ll need to read over that at my leisure but I’ll know who to ask if I have further queries.
On a wider note ZT, your tone of exasperation is misplaced. Your outline on Hearts has been most informative and I’m sure many will have gained a firmer grasp of the detail (you are watching MSM), than they would have had otherwise. A lack of response may be due to your superior knowledge. Wouldn’t want to big you up too much but equally you shouldn’t be putting yourself down.
Beautiful day. I’ll be on my bike. Catch up later.
Most non-OF firm fans live in a world where someone can karate kick one of your players (because he needed to be sorted out) and the officials don’t see it or clearing the ball off the line with your chest is a penalty and a red card.
This raises an important question – how on earth did I manage to miss Fernando Rickson off my rant the other day!
Also Mike McCurry – “I looked long and hard and decided that if I gave a penalty, I would have had to send off Ferguson”. Aye, you effing well should have!
Re: The ‘Chosen One’ email.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/141887195/Chosen-One
Why is the domain part of Charles Green’s email address redacted?
If you’re a random anonymous whistleblower or Craig Whyte/Craig Whyte’s Dad/mate/ex-wife/disgruntled erstwhile colleague , why do you bother doing that?
It’s almost like this stuff has been legalled elsewhere and left on a bus seat, so to speak.
Why is redacted spelled wrong further down?
Why am I doing this and not getting on with my work?
HP,
The LNS stitch up was an SFA judicial panel, the SPL can just ignore it 🙂
paulmac2 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:22
zerotolerance1903 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:06
………………………………….
Wow there cowboy!…your selective descripion of the situation is neither correct or fair..
This is not my blog or yours…it is for all to contribute…it doesn;t always have to be about a particular subject and it doesn’t always have to be serious high brow material..
The fact an Aberdeen fan started the ball rolling by suggesting young Pawlett was being unfairly treated and others have decided to agree or disagree seems to have passed you by…and its the big bad fault of Celtic fans who are doing nothing more than having a debate about cheating in football…
I think you will find there are fans of different clubs on a slow news day just chewing some fat…
So chill out….it’s Friday after all!
___________________________________________________________________
Over react much 😉
You’ll perhaps note that I have also condemned Pawlett, in an earlier.
All I said was that if we’re going discuss dodgy refereeing decisions rather than more serious subject matter then I probably have more to contribute than your average Celtic fan 😉
paulmac2 says
I too worked in Possil, and one of my first sights was seeing a dog walking around with a half brick in its mouth.
Lots of questions raised…..
was it for protection?
was it to show off?
was it to threaten other dogs?
did it collect half bricks?
had it already eaten the other half?
you may think of others..
Enjoyed my time there in community education (mostly)!
Night Terror says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:27
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@arabest1
But back to moral outrage at those dirty divers – it was notable that Barry Robson’s, ahem, technique, in this area improved greatly when he moved to Celtic.
———————————————————–
So you’re point is Dundee Utd are a fine wee morally wholesome club and Celtic are a bunch of nefarious cheating ne’erdowells?
Aye OK.
What’s the arab equivalent of FF?
y4rmy says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:28
Re: The ‘Chosen One’ email.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/141887195/Chosen-One
Why is the domain part of Charles Green’s email address redacted?
If you’re a random anonymous whistleblower or Craig Whyte/Craig Whyte’s Dad/mate/ex-wife/disgruntled erstwhile colleague , why do you bother doing that?
It’s almost like this stuff has been legalled elsewhere and left on a bus seat, so to speak.
Why is redacted spelled wrong further down?
Why am I doing this and not getting on with my work?
_____________________________________________________
1. Because it’s from his personal email address?
2. As above
3. Because it was done manually
4. Because it’s Friday and you hate your job?
paulmac2 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:46
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 10:00
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 09:01
=========================================
Still no word on the 4 clubs who’ve allegedly complained that Hearts should have entered administration,even though at this time they don’t seem to doing anything wrong?.
……………………………………………..
Everybody stop…..4 clubs have complained about Hearts?…WHO? why 4? at a guess Dundee and Morton I could understand….but what would be in it for the other 2…whoever they might be?
I guess if Hearts changed their name to SEVCO fc the 4 would have said f**k all!
====================================
Paulmac,
It’s another of these non-stories.the radio reports all day yesterday that 4 SPL clubs have reported hearts for deliberately delaying administration!
Who are the 4 clubs?.
Why did they report Hearts?.
Why should they?.
Todays scoop:
The SPL will meet on Monday to decide if HMFC have suffered an insolvency event!
Cancel the meeting,they haven’t.
john clarke says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:35
Grant’s phrase ‘he knows, and I know’ just stuck out a bit as a really overt attempt to influence people who might be wavering about buying season tickets.
It just annoyed me.
————————————————————————————————————————
Absolutely no reason to get annoyed at Michael Grant (for once), JC. The whole piece was certainly an attempt to increase ST sales but the phrase ‘he knows, and I know’ wasn’t Grant’s. He was quoting Craig Mathers (or maybe Jim Traynor).
Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:31
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HP,
The LNS stitch up was an SFA judicial panel, the SPL can just ignore it
===========================================
No. The other one 😉
Start on the first page.
In total, the report contains 20 references to “owner and operator” of Rangers Football Club. All references are to Oldco or Newco.
There are no references to Murray Group, Wavetower/Rangers Group or RIFC that place them as “owner and operator” of Rangers FC.
http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/Commission%20Decision%2028%2002%202013.pdf
Also on dodgy decisions. I seem to remember Hugh Dallas, after he retired, saying something about OF bias being a conscious thing for our refs.
Also seem to remember Gough on Sky a couple of season back saying that big teams definitely get the majority of decisions and he exploited this at Rangers.
He said something to the effect that he would tell the referee before the game that if he was having trouble with a player to let him know and he would have a word (rather than book him). He would also play mind games with the linesman by joking that a player was offside when he raised his arm.
But yes, of course, it was a stitch-up!!
M8Dreamer
As a non Celtic supporter I would state that Henrik Larsson was undoubtedly one of the best (if not the best) players to play in Scotland within the last 20 years.
On the points raised previously with regards to his alleged “diving” I am of the view that when he was in the penalty box, he had a tendency to fall quite easily to the ground, while being touched lightly by an opponent, but he was never guilty of “diving”.
I would also observe that when he was challenged by an opponent outwith a goal scoring opportunity, it was virtually impossible for any opponent to bring him down, due to his strength,
balance and ability.
HirsutePursuit says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:43
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Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:31
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HP,
The LNS stitch up was an SFA judicial panel, the SPL can just ignore it
===========================================
No. The other one
Start on the first page.
In total, the report contains 20 references to “owner and operator” of Rangers Football Club. All references are to Oldco or Newco.
There are no references to Murray Group, Wavetower/Rangers Group or RIFC that place them as “owner and operator” of Rangers FC.
=============================================
I’m starting to loose the plot a little 🙂
Has anyone put together a précis of all the reports/panels, who said/did what and when?
it would be an interesting reference doc, especially when compared against rules applied to other teams!
gerrylentils says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:01
arabest1.
i can remember when tom forsyth played for rangers and he hacked down a motherwell player. “the referee indicated that the player had dived. it is the type of dive a man takes when he is hit across the back of the legs with a baseball bat”.
the quote was from hugh mcilvaney the observer journalist in his match report.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can remember Tam Forsyth playing for Motherwell and he hacked down a Motherwell player!!
zerotolerance1903 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:41
Back on the subject of FSA/FCA licensing.
It would no doubt be easier for Whyte to acquire a company that was already licensed than to convince the regulator that a new venture of his should be approved to carry out regulated activities.
I would imagine that he would have to also not take a role that would require him to meet the FCA’s approved person test!
Didn’t Merchant House or Liberty own an FSA registered brokers firm. Can’t remember it’s name but it went under after the usual compliance difficulties that most of CW’s companies face.
I suspect that if he could keep down the number of companies he was involved in then his Empire would be so much more manageable and the long trail of corporate failures he appears so unlucky to be involved in would be a thing of the past!!
zerotolerance1903 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:26
2 0 i
This raises an important question – how on earth did I manage to miss Fernando Rickson off my rant the other day!
Also Mike McCurry – “I looked long and hard and decided that if I gave a penalty, I would have had to send off Ferguson”. Aye, you effing well should have!
zerotolerance1903 says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 12:46
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Also on dodgy decisions. I seem to remember Hugh Dallas, after he retired, saying something about OF bias being a conscious thing for our refs.
Also seem to remember Gough on Sky a couple of season back saying that big teams definitely get the majority of decisions and he exploited this at Rangers.
He said something to the effect that he would tell the referee before the game that if he was having trouble with a player to let him know and he would have a word (rather than book him). He would also play mind games with the linesman by joking that a player was offside when he raised his arm.
————————————
Hmmmm. Quote a bunch of examples/anectodal accounts of Rangers bering treated favourably by officials and call it OF bias.
Dallas, Gough etc would be quite happy to have this termed OF bias.
Everyone just shrugs and it evens itself out over the season as Celtic get the benefit too. Lift up the carpet would you.
I can understand fans of teams other than Celtic and Rangers having the view that these two clubs get every decision going. In my opinion this is utterly flawed logic and the truth is Rangers alone benefited greatly from refereeing “honest mistakes”. However I can see that there is some logic to the assertion that a bigger club with more fans in attendance can bring some influence to bear on a referee however subconsciously, so although I disagree with the truth in an “OF bias” argument I can understand the mentality.
I could come up with a long list of decisions that went against Celtic in favour of “smaller” teams but would only be called paranoid for the very act of going to the bother of gathering evidence and football is too partisan a sphere and this issue to close to fundamentally held dogmas to be productive.
I’ve been told on numerous occassions “try being a supporter of a wee team and see what it’s like”. Yeah, well try being a supporter of Celtic and seeing what it’s like. You would be surprised.
What does get on my thruppneys though – and Night Terror displayed this mentality aptly earlier – is the completely unfounded sense of moral superiority SOME supporters of other teams hold which seems to compel them to make the kind of absurd statements which I would be utterly derided as paranoid for making in the context of Celtic or players of other clubs
e.g. The rather unsubtle statement that Barry Robson was coached to dive at Celtic
eh??
Are we to seriously believe that an individual goes through some sort of psychological transformation on joining Celtic that increases their tendency to cheat?
Are you saying Gordon Strachan coaches his players to cheat?
Sounds kind of paranoid to me.
Henrik Larsson’s name has been tossed around as another of lesser moral fibre than the smaller teams who don’t have a hostile media swarming around every penalty decision ever awarded in favour of the club.
Over the past 10 years I can remember 2 players responsible for getting opponents sent off when they were not even touched and a 3rd who did his best trying
Peter Lovenkrands
Kyle Lafferty
Alan McGregor
Terrible examples of OF cheating
resin_lab_dog says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 11:58
bogsdollox says:
Friday, May 17, 2013 at 01:08
14 0 Rate This
Are you forgetting that the tax debt arose from an illegal split of the players remuneration between the UK and Lithuania so that although the players were working here in the UK a substantial proportion of the income was taxed in Lithuania thus avoiding PAYE &NI.
____________________
Actually, yes I was forgetting!
So while I have no doubt that HMRC made the right determination and the rules are clear, I would concede the possibility that in the minds of those running HMFC there could well have been genuine ambiguity and confusion over the requirements, rather than clear evasion or even deliberate avoidance.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As any learned judge would tell you it matters not a jot what was in the mind of the Directors of HMFC. They are not tax experts so their minds would not be able to consider the issue from any position of knowledge.
What should have been in their minds was the question as to how the remuneration between the two tax jurisdictions should be split and what the tax issues were. They either didn’t address the issue by engaging a tax expert or they did and ignored her advice but we don’t know that.