The Existence of Laws

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The Existence of Laws

A Blog by James Forrest for TSFM

I am a socialist, and as a socialist I believe in the fundamental goodness of people. Some people find that hard to believe when they read the stuff I write.

I published my first novel recently, on politics and the corrupting nature of it, and it is a deeply cynical book, a book where no-one has clean hands come the end. What has surprised some of those who’ve read it is that I didn’t focus on the lies and smears of the right, but the hypocrisy and deceit of those who claim to be of the left.

Corruption, you see, doesn’t respect political boundaries or points of view. It’s like rainwater. It finds every crack, and gets in there.

My political beliefs revolve around two apparently paradoxical elements; the belief in the inherent decency of people and the need for a strong, and powerful, state. I believe the second underpins the first, and this brings me into conflict with a lot of people, some on the left and some on the right. Too many people see the state as inherently evil, as something that interferes too much in the lives of ordinary people. As something suffocating.

Yet the state exists to protect us. It exists to provide a safety net. It exists to regulate and to oversee. If the state is made up of bad people, if the gears of society are captured by those with malicious or selfish intent, the results are obvious; war, corruption, chaos.

The vast majority of our problems in the modern age can be neatly summed up in two lines from Yeats’ poem “The Second Coming”, which I used to open my novel. “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”

We live in a time when those who are protecting their own interests have assumed such power that they’ve cowed the rest of us. They have become a law unto themselves. They have changed the nature of the game, because they have sapped our will to the extent some barely put up a fight anymore. The weak get weaker, and the strong use their strength to crush the rest even more. It is a vicious struggle, a downward spiral.

Society is held together not only by the endeavour and common interests of its citizens but by a collection of laws. We elect the people who make those laws. They do so in our name, and we can remove that right every four years. That is a powerful thing, and we do not appreciate it enough. The present corruption exists because we allow it to exist.

The people around me continue to puzzle over my uncommon interest in the affairs of a football club on the west of Glasgow. My own club plays in the east end. I tell those who ask that my primary interest in the goings-on at the club calling itself Rangers is no longer about football; how could it be, after all? With promotion this year they are still a full two divisions below us, emasculated, skint, weak and unstable. If we were fortunate enough to draw them in cup competition the match would be over, as a tie, by the halfway point … in the first half.

In footballing terms they are an utter irrelevance.

Rangers is more than a football club to me. They are a symbol. Their unfolding calamity is an on-going outrage. What is happening there, what is being allowed to happen, is an offense to decency. It is a stain on the face of our country.

In short, it is a scandal. It is a scandal without parallel in sport.

Yet it’s not just a sports story either. If it was, I might not be so focussed on it. What is happening at Rangers is a colossal failure of governance. It is a damning indictment against the very people who are supposed to oversee our game. It is a disgraceful abrogation of responsibility from those at the top, those who claim to be “running things.”

If this is not a failure of governance it is a result of corruption at the heart of our national sport. It says they are bought and paid for, and I will say no such thing here.

So let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ll say instead that what they are is weak, indecisive, inept and disconnected from reality.

It reminds me of our political class, which has become insular and ignorant about what the public wants, and what it needs. It’s not a wonder parties like UKIP can achieve national vote shares of 25% at local elections. Nigel Farage strikes me as a dog-whistle politician, the kind who knows how to appeal to a select group of voters. He is little different to Charles Green, the man who beguiled Rangers fans into handing over large amounts of money, because he was “standing up for the club.” It is easy to do what he did, easy to do what Farage is doing.

Real leadership requires toughness. Say what you like about the Tories, but they have that in spades. Yeats was right about the worst being full of passionate intensity. Green was. Farage is. Cameron and Osborne personify it in their political outlook.

It is easy to be cowed by blunt force politics, and by “tough talking Yorkshire men” and venomous speeches about “strivers and skivers.” The politics of divide and conquer is the oldest form of politics there is, and it’s no surprise to see it practiced by some of the vested interests in the game here in Scotland. Yet, lest we forget … something significant happened last year. The maligned and the ignored, the weak and the voiceless found something they never realised they had. They discovered that, in a very real sense, the power was in their hands.

Last year, the fans rose up when the governing bodies and the media went all-out to save Rangers from the self-inflicted wounds caused by a decade of cheating, malpractice and ineptitude. I have no problem calling that what it was.

What happened at Rangers seemed incredible, but it was all too predictable, and some of us had been talking about it for years before it hit. The Association seemed caught in the headlights but it would amaze me if they really were as insular and ignorant as they appeared. They must have known how bad the outlook was for Rangers. They just chose to ignore it.

They were aided and abetted by a thoroughly disreputable media, a collection of cowards and compromisers, charlatans and frauds, masquerading as journalists, but who long ago laid aside any claim to be bold investigators and settled for commenting on events as they unfolded. More often than not, with their ill-informed opinions, sometimes due to weaknesses in intellect and others wilfully ignorant, they failed even in that.

Entire newspapers became PR machines for crooks and swindlers. They aided in the scam because they didn’t do their jobs, some because they were lazy, some because they were incompetent and others because they wanted a seat at the table and were willing to sacrifice whatever integrity they once had in exchange for one.

That all of this was embraced by the Rangers fans is amazing to me. They trusted when they should have been asking questions. They closed their eyes, covered their ears and sang their battle tunes at the top of their voices so they wouldn’t have to hear anything they didn’t like. As incredible as I found it then, and still find it now – and now, even more so, when they have already seen the results of it once – I find it pathetic too, and I do feel pity for some of them.

A lot of these people are genuine football fans, and nothing more. They have no interest in the phony narrow nationalism, or the over-blown religion, or the notion of supremacy which manifested itself in a ludicrous statement from McCoist when interviewed recently on Sky.

Some of the Rangers fans look at their team of duds, kids and journeymen, they look at a boardroom of cowards and crooks, they look at a failing manager in his first (and last) job in the game and at a dark future and are not in the least bit impressed by, or interested in, the chest-out arrogance espoused in those ridiculous words “we are the people.” They know full well that their present crisis was made by men like McCoist, and they understand that pretentious posturing is not an act born of strength, but a scrambling around in the gutter, and a symptom of weakness.

They understand their position, and they hate it. And because they care about Rangers, because they value the club, because they cherish those things that made it a great Scottish institution, they want that back. They understand that before the Union Jack waving, Sash singing, poppy wearing, Nazi saluting, Orange element became the public face of their support Rangers meant something else, and that, above all things, is what pains them the most.

People do not hate Rangers. When the country appeared to turn its back last year, they were turning the back on favouritism and the bending of rules. Yet it would be a lie to say that there is not an element of dislike in the gleeful mockery of many rival fans.

But they don’t hate Rangers either. They hate the version of it around which a certain section of the support continues to dance. They hate the version which hates, and so too do many, many, many Rangers supporters, and they definitely deserve better.

David Murray chose not to openly challenge that version. Indeed, he encouraged certain strands of it to flourish and grow, with his “Britishness Days” and his effort to turn the club into the “team that supports the troops.” Other clubs have done as much, if not more, for the British Army than the one that plays out of Ibrox. Other clubs have given more money. Other clubs have lent their support to those on the front lines. They just chose to do it with respect, and with class, and with dignity. They chose to do it in private, understanding that there eventually comes a tipping point between looking after the ends of the soldiers and using them to promote your own.

The army has not battened on to Rangers. Rangers has battened on to them, and although it is unclear when an altruistic motive became darker, what started out as a gesture of solidarity is now used to entrench division and promote a notion of superiority.

Craig Whyte took over from Murray and immediately understood the lure of the “dog whistle.” He knew too that the media would accept whatever he told them, without question, and as he spoke up for “Rangers traditions” he made sure the lunatic fringe was well onside. He met face to face with the hard-core extremists in the support first and made them his praetorian guard. They spoke up for him until the day the club entered administration.

So, whereas Murray pandered to them and Whyte used them to further his own ends, it was only a matter of time before someone suggested to Charles Green that he could use the same tactics to win over the support. He went even further and blatantly promoted and encouraged this mind-set, and stoked the hate and nonsense to frightening new heights. The same people who cheered Whyte to the rafters jumped on board the Big Blue Bus and the results are clear.

Through all of it, the ordinary Rangers fan has seen his club buffered against the rocks, battered, broken, smashed to smithereens and sunk. Now there’s a big hole in the side of the lifeboat, and they are terrified that further tragedies await.

They are right to be concerned. Much of the media is still not telling them what they need to know. The people in charge of their club – the owners who have lied, the former hack who covered up the truth about Whyte and now acts as a mouthpiece for Green, the “club legends” who are content to sup with the devil and take his greasy coin when they should be standing toe-to-toe with the fans – are trying to silence those members of the press who do have facts to present.

How many times now have media outlets been banned from Ibrox for daring to report the truth? The manager who demanded the names of a committee last year defends those inside the walls who are desperate to keep secret the things that are going on. He is either an unprincipled coward, or he is, himself, bought and paid for. The fans suffer for it.

The “inconvenient truth” is still being kept from them, and this denies them any chance to play an active role in their club. Indeed, it is all too possible that they’ve passed a point of no return, and that their club is heading for a new liquidation event and it can no longer be stopped.

In either case, their power has been eroded to the point at which they must feel they have nothing left to do but stand back and watch what happens next.

They are wrong. I am a socialist. I believe in the inherent good of people. I think the ordinary decent Rangers fans are the only people left who can save their club … and the means by which they will do it is as simple as it could be.

They must stand up for “big government.” They must embrace the need for a “strong state.” They must lobby the SFA, and they must trust the SFA and they must get the SFA to follow its own rules and thereby save them from any further harm.

There is a tendency amongst some Celtic fans to see our governing bodies as pro-Rangers. If it is true then those running our game are ruining Scottish football without benefiting the thing they love more. The incalculable harm that has been done to Rangers in the last 20 some months is a direct result of the subservient media and the willingness of the football authorities to be “deaf, dumb and blind.” Those who believe this has actually helped the Ibrox club have not been paying attention in class. It has irrevocably scarred them, and it may yet have played a hand in destroying them once and for all, as a force if not as a club entirely.

For years, the SFA sat and did nothing as a club in their association operated a sectarian signing policy. They did nothing whilst the fans sang sectarian songs. In their failure to act they strengthened those elements of the Rangers support, instead of isolating, alienating and eventually helping to eliminate those who saw that club as a totem pole of division and hate. Their failure over EBT’s, and their lack of scrutiny, led to one of the greatest scandals in the history of sport, and I say that with no equivocation at all. The testimony of their registrations officer in the Lord Nimmo Smith investigation was a disgrace and in years to come it will rank as one of the most disreputable and damaging moments in the association’s history.

The most egregious failures of all were the failures in the so-called “fit and proper person” tests, which allowed first Whyte and then Charles Green to assume controlling positions at Ibrox. They will pass the buck and say the responsibility lies with the club itself, in much the same way as they are content to let the club investigate itself at the present time, but any neutral who looks at this stance knows it is unprincipled and spineless. It’s like letting the defence set the terms at a trial. It is foxes investigating the chicken coop.

It is a blueprint for corruption, and a recipe for disaster.

It is now too late for the SFA to declare Green “unfit”, as it was too late when they finally slapped that title on Craig Whyte. He and his allies own Rangers, and they control its destiny. They can push the club to the wall if they choose, in the final extremity, if that gets them what they want. The time for changing that is past. The damage has already been done. The barbarians are not at the gates. They are inside the walls, and sacking the city.

The SFA will be forced to punish Rangers for the sins of the owners, for the second time in as many years, and whilst it is right that the club face up to that, all the better to send a message to other clubs and other owners, the SFA cannot be allowed to slither off the hook here as though this was none of their doing. Green will skip off into the sunset. Craig Whyte has yet to pay his fine. These people never cared about Scottish football and they don’t care now.

The SFA are supposed to. Our governing body is supposed to govern, for the good of the whole game, and not as a support system for a single club. What they have allowed to happen on their watch is absolutely shameful and if the people responsible were men at all, with any sense of accountability, they would resign en masse.

They can pretend ignorance, but only the truly ignorant would accept that. Craig Whyte was not inside Ibrox a week before RTC and other sites were dismantling his entire business history, with some of the people here doing the work the SFA would not. Whyte himself claims to have made the governing bodies aware of the scale of what was facing the club, and they did nothing at all. Heads should have rolled a year ago.

In October of last year, on this very site, I posted an article in which I wrote:

“Which isn’t to say the due diligence matter isn’t worrying, because, of course, it is. Again, no-one is going to convince me that the SFA has conducted proper due diligence on Charles Green and his backers. No-one will convince me they are satisfied that this club is in safe hands, and that the game in this country will not be rocked by a further implosion at Ibrox. They failed to properly investigate Craig Whyte, because of lax regulations requiring disclosure from the club itself, regulations which are just a joke, but they can be forgiven for that as the press was talking sheer nonsense about him having billions at his disposal, and a lot of people (but not everyone!) were either convinced or wanted to be convinced by him.

To have witnessed what Whyte did, to have witnessed the Duff & Phelps “process” of finding a buyer, and having Green essentially emerge from nowhere, with a hundred unanswered questions as to his background and financing, for the SFA to have given this guy the go ahead, only for it to blow up in their faces later, would annihilate the credibility of the governing body and necessitate resignations at every level. There would be no hiding place.”

There are times when it is fun to be right, but this is not one of them. It is dispiriting and disquieting to have been so on the nose. It scares the Hell out of me, as someone who loves football in this country, to have seen this matter clearly when the people running our game apparently either did not or chose to ignore very real, very obvious, concerns. The Internet Bampots had no special insight or access to information that was denied those at the SFA. We just weren’t prepared to ignore it and pretend that it wasn’t there. There was too much at stake.

I have become convinced that things will never change until the Rangers supporters join us in demanding the full and unabridged truth here. They need to come out from under the bed, and confront their fears. They need to be willing to take the consequences, so that their club can emerge clean from this, and start again, with all this behind them.

And it can all happen with one simple thing. The application of the rules.

The existence of laws comes down to a simple principle; they protect society from those elements within it who are interested only in their own selfish ends. We may cry out at those rules and regulations we see as “restrictive”, but the law was not made to restrict our freedoms but to protect them. Had the SFA years ago acted against Rangers sectarian signing policy, and the songs from the stands, the club would not have mutated to the point where there was no help on hand when they needed it the most. Let’s not kid ourselves about this; Whyte and Green were only able to grab control because the club itself has a dreadful image which put off respectable and responsible buyers. The SFA could have helped change that perception years ago and did nothing.

The SFA could have conducted its own investigation into who Craig Whyte was. They could have asked David Murray for full disclosure when he was running up £80 million of debt, a sum of money that is beyond belief for a single club in a small provincial backwater league. Had they had the guts to do that the club would never have spent itself into oblivion and forced the hand of Lloyds, which led indirectly to their ignominious end.

The SFA could have fully investigated Charles Green and the means by which he took control, instead of rushing through a license. His emergence at the last minute was transparently suspicious and designed to force them into a quick decision, but they did not have to bow to that pressure by making one, without being in possession of the facts, as it is now 100% clear they were not.

Had they asked for every document, had they insisted on legal affidavits and personal securities from investors (and this would have been perfectly legitimate and is common place in other licensing areas) none of this would have come to pass. After Craig Whyte they had a moral responsibility to the rest of the game to get this one right and their failure is without parallel in the history of Scottish football.

As the club hurtles towards a new abyss, names are cropping up which should send a shudder down the spines of every honest, genuine supporter of not only Rangers but every team in the land. The SFA claims that a strong Rangers is essential for the sake of Scottish football, but they have been extraordinarily lax in protecting that club, and therefore the game, from destructive elements. Craig Whyte and Charles Green had dubious personal histories, and the acquisition of the club itself was mired in controversy and scandal. Yet it was allowed.

Neither Green nor Whyte were known to have operated outside the law, yet neither was worthy of trust or stood up to scrutiny. Neither man should ever have been granted the status as fit and proper persons to assume a role in our national sport, and if it is true of them what can we say about the three men who are, presently, being touted as the Great White Hopes for a bright, new Rangers future; Dave King and the Easdale brothers?

King recently cut a deal with the South African government over an on-going dispute over taxes. In other words, he pled guilty and accepted the central plank of their argument; that for years he was engaged in wilfully with-holding vast revenues from their Treasury. The media does not like to put it like that, and the SFA seems willing to ignore it utterly, and this would be scandalous enough. But it does not stop there. HRMC rules – as well as the SFA’s own governance documents – actually bar him from serving on the board of the new club.

Last but not least, aside from being an admitted tax cheat, King is also awaiting trial in South Africa, having been indicted for corruption, forgery and fraud – 300 charges in total. Yet as recently as last week, we were told that the Association was willing to look at him and consider representations from his lawyers. This is almost beyond belief.

If Dave King’s position is untenable, and he is yet to be convicted of a crime, what can we say about the position of the Easdale’s? One of the two brothers, Sandy, has already served jail time. He is a convicted criminal, a fraudster nonetheless, who’s “victim” was the same Treasury who are appealing one case involving the old club and liquidated it entirely over another. This is precisely the kind of “businessman” the fit and proper person test was supposed to weed out, and if the SFA holds its nose here the reek will stink out the halls at Hampden for decades. If King or the Easdale’s are judged fit and proper, then who exactly is the test for? What exactly do you have to do to fail it? How do we explain the existence of laws, when these are not applied?

Pascal says “Law without force is impotent.” The SFA’s weakness has allowed one version of Rangers to destroy itself, and has allowed an existential risk to another. If the next power at Rangers resides in South Africa or Greenock I can say with some certainty that the Association is engaged in an even more dangerous roll of the dice, because the surfacing of fresh scandal will be an ever present risk, and will be of the sort no-one will survive.

The damage to Scottish football will take years to heal. The Scottish game has been through enough trauma. It does not need more. It barely survived the last calamity to hit Rangers. The rest of us should not be forced to pay the price of the next one.

The greater damage will be done to Rangers itself. If the Green crisis ends in another collapse – as it well might; another administration event is a certainty, and another liquidation is a much more likely prospect than it was before 14 February 2012 – the club will once again have to start from the bottom, and this time the reputational damage will be impossible to repair. The club faces internal strife, sporting sanctions, and criminal investigations. The last takeover might be declared a fraud. the Whyte takeover will almost certainly be. The share issue might be invalid, as well as criminal, and the people involved may well end up in jail. Lawsuits could follow from investors, there could be as yet unknown consequences from the Upper Tier Tax Tribunal (thank you Brogan Rogan for pointing out what those might be) and a host of other issues.

Rangers fans must be the loudest voices here. How do you want the world to view your club in years to come? Do you want one to be proud of, or one forever associated with the shame and disgrace of these days gone by? The one which bailed out on its tax obligations. The one with supporters who disgrace your very name. The one which allowed Whyte and Green to take you to the cleaners and send you to the wall. The one which handed over control to one convicted criminal and another awaiting trial. Do you want to be reborn clean, or mired in the muck?

David Murray destroyed your financial stability. He made it so no bank would issue you a line of credit and no investor of note wanted to buy. Craig Whyte liquidated you. Charles Green has cast the future of the Newco into doubt and acted in a manner which has annihilated your credibility with the financial markets for decades to come.

Between these three men, they have taken everything from you, and the press and the people who run the game here, as well as some of your own blindly ignorant fans, have allowed them to do all this and more. Now they conspire to hand the keys to Ibrox to other men of questionable character, who will wreck further havoc on the reputation of the club.

The Scottish Football Association has damaged the game it was supposed to protect, but above all else their greatest failure of governance was a failure to protect one of its biggest clubs from its own excesses and those of its owners.

Rangers fans, the SFA have betrayed your trust, more than the trust of any other club. What you must insist on now is full disclosure and transparency from the powers that be in Hampden. The SFA has to end the charade of allowing your club to handle this in-house. They must hand everything over to an outside agency – whether a legal one, or a footballing body like UEFA – and they must demand co-operation and answers, and threaten to withhold the license if they don’t get them.

You must not be afraid of that. You must embrace it. The men with their hands on the gears at Ibrox are motivated by money, and nothing more. If the license is withdrawn their “investments” are worthless. They cannot risk that.

You must demand that the rules on fit and proper persons are applied, and where necessary even made stronger, to prevent your club falling into unclean hands. You must demand that they protect your reputation from further damage, by getting this all out there and acting accordingly, even if that means your club does not play football for at least a year.

You must be willing to suck it all up, knowing that what will emerge is a Rangers which has been cleansed and moves forward with honour, and dignity, led by custodians who treasure it rather than those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

The Rangers Standard has recently emerged as a genuine voice for those in your support who are sick and tired of what Rangers has become, and want it restored to something that is worthy of the love and respect in which you hold it. On that website, there are discussions about the kind of club you seek to be and about whether the institution of Rangers is about more than just football.

If that’s how you feel about it then you know it is about more than how many titles the club can claim, about more than just results on the park, about more than just the game. Rangers, like Celtic, is an idea. It has to be something you are proud of.

I am a socialist, but one with a fevered imagination and a tendency to write very dark things. This piece won’t have been good reading for some of you (perhaps all of you haha!) but I think there’s more hope in here than in other things I’ve written.

In spite of everything that’s come to pass, I still believe. I believe in Scottish football. I believe in our system of football governance, even if those who are working in it are failing on some level.

In society, as much as we strain against them, laws exist for our protection. To fail to enforce them is to leave us at the mercy of those elements who would do us harm. The rules of football ensure the protection of all clubs, not just a few.

The failure to enforce the rules has never had graver consequences than here in Scotland.  The irony is that bending and breaking them has hurt the one club those violations were designed to help. It cannot be allowed to happen again.

The rules must be applied without fear or favour.

The best must find their conviction, and their passionate intensity once more.

James is a co-editor of the On Fields of Green Blog http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/

About the author

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Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

5,802 Comments so far

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torrejohnbhoyPosted on5:01 pm - May 20, 2013


Did someone post tht the independent Enquiry has cost £1m?.
Who’s paying for all this?.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on5:02 pm - May 20, 2013


blu says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 16:38

Zero – I think the insolvency issue is a bit more of a grey area than you’re suggesting. It does look as if the SPL agree with you though – looks like the line of least resistance to me.

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Let me put my point a different way. Although I don’t think Hearts deserve to emerge from the last few years unpunished and unscathed, what I would like to happen to Hearts is not the issue. All I want is for the governing bodies to follow their rule book without fear or favour – even it Hearts get off scot free.

There are two main parts to the “punishment of Hearts”.

1. As of today neither Hearts nor UBIG has formally entered insolvency proceedings, therefore Hearts have not suffered an insolvency event. There is no basis for a points deduction TODAY and the season is now over. This part is not grey.

2. What happens if UBIG do go into administration in the off-season? One group will argue that UBIG is Hearts parent and because they have gone into adminsitration Hearts have suffered an insolvency event – even if they UK ltd company continues to operate as normal. Hearts themselves will argue that because they operate independently and without financial support from UBIG that the insolvency of their major shareholder is irrelevent. On this I would tend to side with Hearts.

That’s not the end of the story for Hearts though. The administration of Ukio Bankas and UBIG will cause issues for Hearts as the adminstrators will be attempting to recover debts from Hearts and/or they will impact the ownership of Hearts – through the sale of UBIG’s stake.

That said a “maroon knight” probably has a far less messy deal to negotiate than his blue contemporary.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on5:13 pm - May 20, 2013


Sam says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 16:56

zerotolerance1903 says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 16:33

@Sam. I am familiar with Allen and Overy and I probably wouldn’t describe them as “a Global Investigatory firm prevalent in ASIA & also many other places & Islands”.

They are an international Law Firm with offices in every continent. They are a very large firm and the focus on commerical work – capital markets, M&A, restructuring, real estate, emerging markets, etc. – and specialise in cross-border deals.

They are very good and I’m sure that they do do investigations as part of their portfolio of services but I’m not convinced the firm mentioned in the email is of huge significance.

Also, £500k doesn’t buy you a huge number of man hours from A & O.

To ZT 1903;
Of course, you didn’t describe them as such.
Why mention if no significance?
Contradictory to your post, the £500K was not noted in relevance to A&O man hours.
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Yep, I didn’t describe them as such, you did and I thought it misrepresented their significance.

I took the mention of Allen and Overy in the email to mean that Green and Ahmed wanted to engage A&O to go after Whyte rather than engaging Pinsent Mason to do the internal investigation i.e. they wanted a different piece of work done by a different firm of lawyers.

I mentioned the man hours purely because for that money you are only talking about a swift piece of work, anything involved or complicated would cost a lot more.

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easyJamboPosted on5:13 pm - May 20, 2013


Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia) says: Monday, May 20, 2013 at 16:45

Think that misses the point made that the seeming inevitability of UBIG falling into Administration creates grave uncertainty about the future of Tynecastle Stadium, therefore the ability of Hearts FC to fulfil fixtures next season.

It’s likely that a Lithianian administrator will be more amenable to selling off UBIG’s assets for the benefit of creditors than the Scottish based Duffer Brothers were.
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Tynecastle is still owned by Hearts. Ukio Bankas (in pending a bankruptcy process) have a security worth £6.8M over it. Hearts have an interest only loan agreement with Ukio Bankas that runs until December 2015.

UBIG’s insolvency should not impact on Tynecastle per se.

Should Ukio Bankas’ administrator seek to realise the asset (Tynecastle) by calling in the loan, then they would be terminating a valid loan arrangement, leaving them open to legal challenge. However if they were able to detach Hearts from the stadium ownership then I’m sure that any prospective buyer would allow Hearts to see out the season and more as planning permission for any development works could take years.

In an emergency situation I’m sure that Hearts would be able to arrange a ground share agreement with the SRU for Murrayfield or even with Livingston, while they continued negotiations with the Council to build / utilise a new stadium on the west side of the city.

The risk of failing to fulfil next season’s fixtures will more likely come from an over ambitious cash flow projection that relies on player sales and further money from the fans in a new membership scheme.

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fara1968Posted on5:14 pm - May 20, 2013


Just listened to the Imran/Murray tape. Absolutely awful. Neither Murray or Imran come out of that very well.

I couldn’t believe the bit when Imran says that Green might talk rubbish at times but he won’t stab you in the back. Is this the same Green who admitted in public that he stabbed Whyte in the back????
What a beauty.

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ptd1978Posted on5:14 pm - May 20, 2013


It’s a pathetic finding from the SFA to basically say “In this case, we we’re not quite sure enough that Hearts have broken the rules.
They’ve managed to avoid setting a precedent that might eventually hang Sevco and they’ve managed to sound like spoiled children while they’re at it.

Meanwhile kudos to Chris McLaughlin for getting a one sentence quote completely wrong. He’s re-written the finding as a complete exoneration.

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fara1968Posted on5:27 pm - May 20, 2013


@briggsbhoy

IA tells MM in the telecon that it is being recorded.

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Brian McHugh (@pbmchugh)Posted on5:31 pm - May 20, 2013


ptd1978 says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 17:14

It’s a pathetic finding from the SFA to basically say “In this case, we we’re not quite sure enough that Hearts have broken the rules.
————–

I think you’ll find it was an SPL ruling, not the SFA.

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scapaflow14

scapaflow14Posted on5:34 pm - May 20, 2013


easyJambo says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 17:13

Today’s decision was the correct one, and, it leaves the option of further action, if/when the situation changes, open.

I hope Hearts can use the time available to find a way out of the mess.

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Billy BoycePosted on5:48 pm - May 20, 2013


scapaflow14 says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 15:35

Mr Transparency speaks @STV
“Stewart Regan: Alleged Green and Whyte link a ‘very serious issue’
————————————–

“The report is being done very much on an independent basis.”

Being done on an independent basis is not the same as an independent report. The report is being carried out by Sevco for Sevco’s benefit only and definitely not for Joe Public. The personnel involved i.e. the lawyers and accountants have been chosen by Sevco and are being paid by the Ibrox outfit. Sevco will also have given their advisors specific terms of reference in order to restrict the so-called ‘independent’ investigation from becoming just that – an independent investigation. These advisors ain’t going to bite the hand that feeds them.

The QC may report damaging findings to the Sevco board but you can bet your boots these will not be part of any public document and they will be kept strictly “in-lodge”.

Can you imagine the furore if it was Celtic who was the offending club and they informed the SFA,

Lawwell: “Don’t worry Campbell, we’ll do an independent investigation ourselves and let you have a report in due course”

Ogilvie: “That will be fine with us, Peter”.

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on5:51 pm - May 20, 2013


Phil MacGiollaBhain ‏@Pmacgiollabhain 11m
A fine chap at Pinsent Masons thinks that their urgent work for Sevco has apparently been “put on hold”. I can’t think why…

Could CF have changed the direction of the enquiry?

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scapaflow14

scapaflow14Posted on5:51 pm - May 20, 2013


Tommy says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 17:48

If Phil Mac is correct, the “independent basis report” may be on hold

“Phil MacGiollaBhain ‏@Pmacgiollabhain 14m
A fine chap at Pinsent Masons thinks that their urgent work for Sevco has apparently been “put on hold”. I can’t think why…
#SevcoFiasco”

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on5:54 pm - May 20, 2013


@scapa The source is good. “on hold” could mean various things, but I thought it Tweetworthy nonetheless

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CastofThousandsPosted on5:57 pm - May 20, 2013


borussiabeefburg says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 15:26

“I’ve wiped the film as it seems disparaging , and put the audio to roughly the correct speed. Recognise anyone?”
——————
I could’nt open that file. Please check your link via the blog and repost if necessary.

briggsbhoy says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 15:23

“Ladyboys of Bangkok ! I’m confused,not sure what your inferring to there”.
——————

Charlotte’s gender briggsboy; its been openly questioned by previous posters. I’m not happy at the prospect of romancing this beautiful, wealthy intelligent being only to discover at a critical juncture that all is not what it seems. How deep might this fakery extend.
I’ve never seen the programme myself, but its title does conjure up an incident a friend recollected to me concerning one of his visits to the city concerned. For reasons of good taste I am unable to elaborate but if I have to explain my humour any further then it will only serve to reveal my lack of wit.

Ifs there’s any doubt briggsboy, I’m willing to step aside and allow you mastery of the field.

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rantinrobinPosted on6:00 pm - May 20, 2013


Fara1968

Can you point me to link for Imran/Murray tape?

Thanks

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scapaflow14

scapaflow14Posted on6:00 pm - May 20, 2013


Phil MacGiollaBhain (@Pmacgiollabhain) says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 17:54

Good to know, on hold as you say, can imply a ,multitude of reasons. Bit sceptical of everything at the moment, there are more wheels within wheels here, than in my old Meccano set!

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on6:06 pm - May 20, 2013


@scapa Indeed, as I wrote today if you think you know what is going on you haven’t been paying attention or you’re Paul McConville…

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Madbhoy24941Posted on6:14 pm - May 20, 2013


I don’t understand enough about the insolvency laws so I cannot really comment on the decision regarding Hearts; I would however hate to see them leave the league.

What I don’t understand is why the meeting was called in the first place as Hearts (the club) have not given any indication that they have a problem, are The SFA going to call a meeting every time a shareholder of a club has problems or am I just totally misunderstanding the situation?

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on6:24 pm - May 20, 2013


Im sure CF said the Pinsett enquiry would not now report.

On where this all comes from; were any of the creditors to the insolvency firms providing VOIP and computer services?
Did they leave anything behind? Like forgot to remove something in the servers?

If so we have a different type of information.

Just musing.

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andyPosted on6:30 pm - May 20, 2013


https://soundcloud.com/the-truthteller/conversation-imran-to-mm

rantinrobin says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 18:00
1 0 Rate This
Fara1968

Can you point me to link for Imran/Murray tape?

Thanks

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scapaflow14

scapaflow14Posted on6:30 pm - May 20, 2013


madbhoy24941 says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 18:14

Meeting wasn’t purely about Hearts, but, also league reconstruction. Given the attention the Hearts situation has been getting, it would have been surprising if the situation had not been discussed, see also earlier reports around the authorities seeking legal advice on their rules. Very rarely, I’m praising the SPL for their handling of this. Though, I still hold the view that every last one of them should be removed from all executive positions within the footballing authorities sine die!

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Madbhoy24941Posted on6:30 pm - May 20, 2013


1. barcabhoy says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 09:22

Yet another example of the Green / Ahmad faction failing to understand the reality of being Scottish.
———————————

Also failing to understand the concept of a football club, from the sacking recording:

“Run the company…run this company… this business…”

No mention of a “Club”

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andyPosted on6:31 pm - May 20, 2013


rantinrobin says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 18:00
1 0 Rate This
Fara1968

Can you point me to link for Imran/Murray tape?

Thanks

https://soundcloud.com/the-truthteller/conversation-imran-to-mm

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fara1968Posted on6:32 pm - May 20, 2013


@ rantinrobin

https://soundcloud.com/the-truthteller/conversation-imran-to-mm

Beware it’s excruciating
🙂

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fara1968Posted on6:35 pm - May 20, 2013


Sorry rantinrobin, I was away for a bit there. Though I notice others have posted link.
🙂

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rantinrobinPosted on6:43 pm - May 20, 2013


Thanks guys.I have just listened to the tape and I note BRTH analysis which covers the bases.

It is indeed excruciating,painful and humiliating.Whatever the relationships and politics of TRFC this is ,in my view,no way to treat anyone.Horrendous.

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CastofThousandsPosted on6:43 pm - May 20, 2013


zerotolerance1903 says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 17:02

“As of today neither Hearts nor UBIG has formally entered insolvency proceedings”
——————–

I get that ZT. I’ve heard nothing substantive that disproves it although I understand the exact point af insolvency might be up for debate. The governing bodies have great difficulty in applying existing rules so it is no surprise the Hearts circumstances would illicit a Homer Simpson response from them (Doh!). I see also, as some have said, that not being able to guarantee fulfilment of fixtures next year is a point iof reflection. However how many clubs can ever offer such cast iron gurantees. Auldheid (HirsuitPursuite also) has commented on the rule book previously and is probably awaiting the debate to subside sufficiently so he can requote them once more.

Rules will always be open to interpretation. They need to be interpreted in the light of the spirit in which they were drafted. The world, especially the biusiness world, changes fast. I think we might need to cut the governing bodies a bit of slack on this as they’ve got plenty on their plate already.

Noticed that the possibility of a Hearts legal challenge to the governing bodies ruling may be a possibility. I thought the articles of association prevented this.

Its a great debate though. I hope the SFA officials reading are taking copious notes and observing the exercise of all the possible scenarios.

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briggsbhoyPosted on6:58 pm - May 20, 2013


@ Rantinrobin re the fone call between Amhid and MM. I have already stated my views on it and I think myself that Amhid has a check to call MM a back stabbers has he not.

The song they should be playing at Ibrox is the backstabbers by the O’Jays, sums them up

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Long Time Lurker

Long Time LurkerPosted on7:01 pm - May 20, 2013


nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 17:51

Phil MacGiollaBhain ‏@Pmacgiollabhain 11m
A fine chap at Pinsent Masons thinks that their urgent work for Sevco has apparently been “put on hold”. I can’t think why…

————————————————————————

If the Police pulled up and said – we are in the process of conducting an investigation to establish if there has been any criminality etc. would that then mean that Pinsent Masons would have to consider putting a temporary halt to their work? Just guessing.

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on7:17 pm - May 20, 2013


I posted but is gone missing?

CF said in a tweet Pinsents would NOT report -so far true.

I was musing on old gers creditors.

Did one of the ones who got stiffed provide VOIP and network services.

Did they forget to take something with them like remote server monitoring?

Just a thought.

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iamacantPosted on7:26 pm - May 20, 2013


Ally off to Madrid???? Mourinho finished on 2nd June. Way to go Ally or is Real Madrid not big enough 🙂

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CastofThousandsPosted on7:30 pm - May 20, 2013


ianagain says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:17

“Did one of the ones who got stiffed provide VOIP and network services”.
—————-

A bit left field but sometimes the simplest ezxplanations are the best.

Charlotte’s list of contracts to be breached below :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/141745358/Budgets

Not sure if breach of internet companies contract would absolve them of confidentiality requirements. If I didn’t pay my builder it doesn’t mean he can legitimately come round and dismantle his work. He would need to pursue his case for breach of contract througn the courts rather than taking matters into his own hands.

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fara1968Posted on7:31 pm - May 20, 2013


I’ve been thinking through the Hearts situation. Firstly I hope that they manage to resolve their financial problems and remain at the top end of Scottish football. If however administration does follow It could see relegation the following season due to the 25 point deduction. That could see TRFC and the Jambos fighting it out for the First Division if Hearts succeed admin and TRFC win promotion.
Quite a remarkable scenario and unthinkable a year or so ago.

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twopandaPosted on7:40 pm - May 20, 2013


A golden oldie – worth an airing given these `strange` times – useful grounding to those who haven`t seen
.
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
http://www.dcdave.com/article3/991228.html

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on7:41 pm - May 20, 2013


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22601342?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Scottish league bodies remain divided as SPL rejects SFL plan

Comments
Scottish Premier League clubs have rejected amendments from the Scottish Football League to the top tier’s plan for restructuring the league system.
And the SPL will plough ahead with its vision of the future by holding a formal vote of its 12 clubs within the next 10 days.
The SFL had proposed that a greater share of funding should filter down to Second and Third Division clubs .
But SPL chairman Ralph Topping said it was sticking to its own plan.
That would involve a merger of the SPL and SFL to form a single league body and play-offs involving the 11th-placed club in the top-flight and three second-tier teams.
Money would filter down from the SPL to First Division clubs to create a softer landing for relegated clubs in return for those in the top-flight having an increased chance of dropping to Division One.
At present, only the club finishing last are relegated.

I’m delighted to say we went round the table today, person by person, and they were all behind the proposal

Ralph Topping
SPL chairman
SFL clubs wanted some of the money going to First Division clubs to filter further down to the levels below, but that was rejected by SPL clubs.
“The SPL clubs to a man, and woman, round the table want to go to ‘yes’ and sign off on the changes, the 42-club proposal, take it forward and are willing to commit themselves to that through written resolution, which is great news for the game,” said Topping.
“The last meeting was a good one. You are always concerned that something’s going to change in the interim.
“I’m delighted to say we went round the table today, person by person, and they were all behind the proposal.”
SPL clubs were also in unanimous agreement two weeks ago and St Mirren chairman Stewart Gilmour was pleased that the consensus had continued and that a short-notice vote could be arranged.
The 30 SFL clubs had also been in unanimous agreement on Friday when they came up with a different model of governance and wealth distribution.
Gilmour would not expand on the differences between the two proposals, but he was satisfied with the SPL discussions and believes change remains possible this summer.
“I think it’s the right thing for all 42 clubs,” he said. “It’s in the hands of the SFL clubs. We all have little issues, but we have a middle road.
“We looked at the whole model and we’re quite happy with what we’ve done.
“There has been exceptionally good compromise in the SPL.
“It’s not exactly what the board of St Mirren would wish for, but we are more than comfortable.”
SFL clubs would likely be given 14 days notice of a formal vote, which would follow any SPL vote.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on7:48 pm - May 20, 2013


mullach says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:30

Mullach- nothing to stop him doing it illegitimately though is there? He just needs to make sure he doesn’t get caught.

you’d think an IT service company who could have got that information could find a way to release it anonymously.

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TaysiderPosted on7:49 pm - May 20, 2013


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22601342

“Scottish Premier League clubs have rejected amendments from the Scottish Football League to the top tier’s plan for restructuring the league system.

And the SPL will plough ahead with its vision of the future by holding a formal vote of its 12 clubs within the next 10 days.

The SFL had proposed that a greater share of funding should filter down to Second and Third Division clubs .

But SPL chairman Ralph Topping said it was sticking to its own plan.

That would involve a merger of the SPL and SFL to form a single league body and play-offs involving the 11th-placed club in the top-flight and three second-tier teams.
Money would filter down from the SPL to First Division clubs to create a softer landing for relegated clubs in return for those in the top-flight having an increased chance of dropping to Division One.

SFL clubs wanted some of the money going to First Division clubs to filter further down to the levels below, but that was rejected by SPL clubs.”

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on7:50 pm - May 20, 2013


mullach says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:30

1

0

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ianagain says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:17

“Did one of the ones who got stiffed provide VOIP and network services”.
—————-

A bit left field but sometimes the simplest ezxplanations are the best.

Charlotte’s list of contracts to be breached below :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/141745358/Budgets

Not sure if breach of internet companies contract would absolve them of confidentiality requirements. If I didn’t pay my builder it doesn’t mean he can legitimately come round and dismantle his work. He would need to pursue his case for breach of contract througn the courts rather than taking matters into his own hands.
===============================================================

That’s the other thing I meant to mention the source then becomes a problem, is that ATs problem?

Its the final list of creditors I was thinking about not CFs contacts.

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paulmac2Posted on7:54 pm - May 20, 2013


Having listened to the IM/MM tape…it is very clear that the conversation from IM position has been well prepared..and deliberate in it’s execution…knowing the call to be recorded…were as MM is clearly caught by what appears is an unexpected call with claims and accusations presented to him in a very forcefull bordering on bullying method…

MM clearly not thinking on his feet…should have ended the call very quickly and demanded a face to face with his solicitor…sadly he didn’t…

Some of the comments by IM are unprofessional to say the least…I actually feel sorry for MM…but if you are going to play with the big boys and you know they are in the game of spivery…then as a man who we are told is honourable and intelligent..he should never have allowed himself to be caught as cold as he sounds on that tape…

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upthehoopsPosted on7:55 pm - May 20, 2013


I caught ten minutes of Radio Clyde earlier and heard a pundit (Gary Ralston I think) say the SFA can’t take away Rangers licence no matter what. He is far from alone in the media in holding that view, and I suspect it is indeed also the view of the SFA. Where does it leave the game in Scotland when so many media writers are prepared to publicly state that no matter what rule is broken, or what crime is committed, you can’t under ANY circumstances withdraw the licence of one particular club?

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paulmac2Posted on7:55 pm - May 20, 2013


Apologies…should be IA not IM

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Danish PastryPosted on7:57 pm - May 20, 2013


ianagain on Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:17
4 0 Rate This

I posted but is gone missing?

CF said in a tweet Pinsents would NOT report -so far true.
—————

And if they have downed tools, is it because of the CW non co-operation in the run up to another event, as stated?

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Forres Dee (@ForresDee)Posted on8:01 pm - May 20, 2013


upthehoops says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:55

I caught ten minutes of Radio Clyde earlier and heard a pundit (Gary Ralston I think) say the SFA can’t take away Rangers licence no matter what. He is far from alone in the media in holding that view, and I suspect it is indeed also the view of the SFA. Where does it leave the game in Scotland when so many media writers are prepared to publicly state that no matter what rule is broken, or what crime is committed, you can’t under ANY circumstances withdraw the licence of one particular club?

=======================

This is sounding like the ‘you can’t take the titles’ defence, say it often enough and it becomes fact.

However, the fact that the removal of the licence/membership is being discussed on Clyde SSB tells me that they know something is about to break shortly and it wont be good news.

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on8:05 pm - May 20, 2013


As I mentioned last week anyone got a spare fitba team that wants to play in Europa league? Please provide your own plane tickets – preferably:

The club can confirm the following squad changes as of Saturday 1st June 2013.

Leaving the club after their contracts expire on 31st May will be:
•Darren Randolph (Birmingham City)
•Steven Saunders
•Nicky Law
•Omar Daley
•Steven Hetherington
•Josh Watt
•Nicky Devlin

The following players have been / will be offered extended terms with the club:

“IE out of contract”

•Tom Hateley
•Chris Humphrey
•Michael Higdon
•Fraser Kerr
•James McFadden

The following players loan has expired and will return to their parent club:
•Kallum Higginbotham (Huddersfield Town)

The following Under 20 players have left the club after their contracts expired:
•Adam Asghar
•Dominic Green

Motherwell Football Club would like to sincerely thank all the players who are leaving the club for their efforts whilst at Fir Park and wish them every success in the future careers.

My own thanks to all of them – been fun.
Now wheres the phone directory?

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on8:07 pm - May 20, 2013


Oh and apply by July 1st please as you may kick off 14 days later. cheers

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jonnyodPosted on8:15 pm - May 20, 2013


For those posters waiting for the SFA to do anything about Sevco’s licence ,don’t waste your time
There is absolutely no one in that organisation that will do anything other than ensure the tribute act plays football and if this tribute act goes the way of the old CLUB then it will be back to frankenstein’s lab for another corpse .
IMO the SFA have issued invalid licenses before and they will do again

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upthehoopsPosted on8:16 pm - May 20, 2013


Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 20:01

However, the fact that the removal of the licence/membership is being discussed on Clyde SSB tells me that they know something is about to break shortly and it wont be good news.
=============================================

Interesting you should say that, because Ralston preceded his statement that you CAN’T take away Rangers licence by saying ‘the SFA are going to need the wisdom of Solomon on this one’. He did not even discuss the possibility Rangers would be exonerated. Perhaps like the rest of us he has listened to and read all the CF releases and decided none of it is good news for them. I read on here over the weekend a suggestion CF might just be reminding all involved in the investigation not to even think about a whitewash. Just what else does CF have?!!!!

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on8:17 pm - May 20, 2013


Danish Pastry says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:57

ianagain on Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:17
4 0 Rate This

I posted but is gone missing?

CF said in a tweet Pinsents would NOT report -so far true.
—————

And if they have downed tools, is it because of the CW non co-operation in the run up to another event, as stated?
==============================================

It said CW “and others” which surely is other board members. so where do they go then?

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ptd1978Posted on8:17 pm - May 20, 2013


Brian McHugh (@pbmchugh) says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 17:31
————–

I think you’ll find it was an SPL ruling, not the SFA.
________
Fair point, but the SPL should still have framed what they said in a different way.

Basically saying “The only reason we’re not punishing you is because we can’t prove you’ve done anything wrong”. What kind of message does that send out from an organisation whose competence and integrity is already under question.

They should have framed it the way McLaughlin re-wrote it.

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CastofThousandsPosted on8:27 pm - May 20, 2013


Given the range and complexity of the material provided by Charlotte, it seems to me that its authenticity cannot simply be questioned on the basis of it being a charade. The video clip of Malcolm Murray (should have said scurrilous video clip) shows the quality of intrigue currently available at the Ibrox Club. Charlotte’s revelations are more than one order of magnitude in excess of what the spivs are capable of fabricating. If CF revelations are a fabrication then, as someone already commented, we could be forgiven for being taken in by them.

On that basis it is then not unreasonable that they be considered valid. Who is the source need not be a major consideration other than it would reveal a possible motive. This is beyond our knowledge at the moment. As past colleagues used to say, to paraphrase, you can only utilise the tools that you have at your disposal.

There is a strange dicotomy for me concerning her release of material. The drip feed approach has been tantalising but has not really provided a full picture of the plot. It has however been sufficient to fill almost all the gaps identified by RTC/TSFM. In some ways this has taken the wind out of our sails because now we have many answers and a diminishing number of questions. The drip feed also suggests something else to me.

Charlotte first came to TSFM to proclaim her revelations. 19 posts, many with accompanying documentation. She also asked questions however e.g Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 21:23

Jack Irvine and SDM – Was there ever a relationship?

This immediately put us on our guard. We new that there was a relationship. Wives, mothers, dogs and cats of TSFM readers new this. Why didn’t Charlotte?

Then at other times posts would seem obscure like references to Pearl & Dean/STV, Chris Akers.

So I’m thinking that Charlotte is a wee bit in the dark herself concerning the full picture. She came to TSFM because we had a reputation for forensic analysis. Did she have so much documentation she wasn’t quite sure how to order it?

Then more recently, the five way agreement and details of members of the three man disciplinary panel. These were topics that had been done to death on TSFM (although I personally missed some of this conversation).

Its as if she reads TSFM but isn’t really an adherent.

So perhaps she came here for help on unravelling the mystery. A mystery she knew some parts of that we didn’t and other parts where she was missing basic detail. Maybe she still needs our help. Maybe if we could piece together the scenarios she would become like a super poster or super twitterer where as we reached an impasse she would ferret through her mind and pile of documentation and provide keys to unlock the emerging mysteries.

I’m remined of the 15 year old that broke into the Pentagon database who was under extradition threat for a while. There are numerous ways these materials might have been procured. Some fairly innocent and others deep and dark. We don’t know. Until we do we have licence to take them at face value and explore their implications. Perhaps even ask questions that might provoke a response from Charlotte.

Charlotte the oracle.

Oh Charlotte, look favourably down upon your humble followers.

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jonnyodPosted on8:28 pm - May 20, 2013


For all the Sevco fans bleating on about Hearts .
Claiming they should be demoted because their parent company asked to be placed in admin on Thursday .
CW told ,Regan and Doncaster that ragers were skint in October of his season in charge and they did nothing whilst he withheld millions from HMRC to get ragers into 2nd place .
So I would not shout too loudly if I were you

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andyPosted on8:33 pm - May 20, 2013


Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 20:01
9 0 Rate This
upthehoops says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:55

I caught ten minutes of Radio Clyde earlier and heard a pundit (Gary Ralston I think) say the SFA can’t take away Rangers licence no matter what. He is far from alone in the media in holding that view, and I suspect it is indeed also the view of the SFA. Where does it leave the game in Scotland when so many media writers are prepared to publicly state that no matter what rule is broken, or what crime is committed, you can’t under ANY circumstances withdraw the licence of one particular club?

=======================

This is sounding like the ‘you can’t take the titles’ defence, say it often enough and it becomes fact.

However, the fact that the removal of the licence/membership is being discussed on Clyde SSBtells me that they know something is about to break shortly and it wont be good news.
____________________
Gary Ralston formerly of the rangers News
so no surprise that he would say that

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Forres Dee (@ForresDee)Posted on8:37 pm - May 20, 2013


Well I never,

Wisdom of Solomon, Chapter 1, verses 9:11

9: For inquisition shall be made into the counsels of the ungodly: and the sound of his words shall come unto the Lord for the manifestation of his wicked deeds.

10: For the ear of jealousy heareth all things: and the noise of murmurings is not hid.

11: Therefore beware of murmuring, which is unprofitable; and refrain your tongue from backbiting: for there is no word so secret, that shall go for nought: and the mouth that belieth slayeth the soul.

Was that a masonic rallying call in use on a radio programme?

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borussiabeefburgPosted on8:46 pm - May 20, 2013


mullach says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 17:57

borussiabeefburg says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 15:26
“I’ve wiped the film as it seems disparaging, and put the audio to roughly the correct speed. Recognise anyone?”
——————
I could’nt open that file. Please check your link via the blog and repost if necessary.
——————
You’d have to have a Dropbox account to get the file as I previously posted it.

Maybe this:
upload files free

Or if that doesn’t work, try http://www.filedropper.com/sleekitguestsatbowwinecellars

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abigboydiditandranawayPosted on8:59 pm - May 20, 2013


just as a wee aside…
looking forward to the cup final and would love it to be like the celtic v hibs clashes of the 70’s in scottidh, league and dryborough cup finals…
always good football and great players on both sides…
i obviously remember the celtic players well but alan gordon, jim o’rourke, arthur duncan, alex cropley, pat stanton etc….
brilliant…
i remember them well…
jumpers for goalposts, a 10bob note got you in AND a fish supper on the way home…
i’ve taken this too far right?
i’ll get ma harringtin!!!

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ecobhoyPosted on9:02 pm - May 20, 2013


paulmac2 says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:54

Having listened to the IM/MM tape…it is very clear that the conversation from IM position has been well prepared..and deliberate in it’s execution…knowing the call to be recorded…were as MM is clearly caught by what appears is an unexpected call with claims and accusations presented to him in a very forcefull bordering on bullying method…

MM clearly not thinking on his feet…should have ended the call very quickly and demanded a face to face with his solicitor…sadly he didn’t…

Some of the comments by IM are unprofessional to say the least…I actually feel sorry for MM…but if you are going to play with the big boys and you know they are in the game of spivery…then as a man who we are told is honourable and intelligent..he should never have allowed himself to be caught as cold as he sounds on that tape…
===============================================================

I was able to make out on the tape that MM said he had just got in but I couldn’t make out where from but I note a KDS poster has identified the start as ‘Mansion’ which could well be the Mansion House in Glassford Street. Smells like a set-up especially if he was plied with drink at the hotel.

But it is quite clear that the call might have been unexpected but only because MM thought his fate had already been sealed. He states to IA: ‘I thought it had actually been announced already’ and later when he asks for time to think he adds: ‘I’ve adjusted myself to full termination’.

So my take has always been that there probably was a previous face to face meeting but I don’t know who confronted MM. But he was obviously told he was being bumped but Green or Ahmad took cold feet and realised it could cause a lot of problems so they came up with the ploy of delaying till the end of the season.

That’s my second listen to the tape and tbh Murray is a lot better than I thought on first listening. He actually gave little away and denied the allegations. But one thing I missed on a first listen was Ahmad saying that they had videos sent in by fans showing Murray’s behaviour. Now was the two videos we have seen – obviously not taken by fans – or are there others and was it fans or private detectives shadowing him. This is murky waters but there are millions at stake.

There is no doubt that they were desperate that MM shouldn’t reveal the resrictions they were placing on him as chairman because he wouldn’t actually have been a chairman in the eyes of AIM I reckon if it came out.

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selfassessorPosted on9:04 pm - May 20, 2013


Listening to the IA/MM recording was cringeworthy.

So CG wouldn’t stab anyone in the backnlike MM did? How would Chuckles describe what he claimed he did to get CW’s shares.

Also MM might sound as if he has just woken up after a good night’s sleep or a few afternoon refreshments but at least he didn’t sound like a foulmouthed spiv.

Does anyone know whether MM has any experience of being a PLC chairman or was he sected for his maleability?

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TaysiderPosted on9:13 pm - May 20, 2013


Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out!

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selfassessorPosted on9:23 pm - May 20, 2013


Why is my last post in moderation?

Watching Hillsborough on Panorama. Quite sobering. Real injustice.

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ecobhoyPosted on9:28 pm - May 20, 2013


Oh an important bit I missed in the Ahmad to Murray call was that if Murray needed to issue a press release it should be done through Traynor or Ramsey. Now that makes me think Ramsey Smith of Media House – remember him from the CW tapes.

I actually thought that Media House were off the scene but it seems they might still be there – must be costing a fortune in PR at Ibrox. They might have been bumped in the last few months right enough and if they have been I wouldn’t be surprised if they had been rehired.

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nostarsandbarredPosted on9:28 pm - May 20, 2013


Don’t you just love the SFA…. “a very serious issue”… “we have agreed that we will wait until that report is concluded”… Well of course you have, because an independent inquiry commissioned by the club that you think has a very serious issue can only be investigated by… that club… not you. Why not conduct your own investigation, independent of that club ? No, no, no…. that would never do.

And of course…. that “investigation” will be… guess what… delayed ! Well, hey, what a surprise… and… when it does get concluded… what’s to stop Sevco announcing anything they want about the result… after all, they commissioned it.. they presumably have no obligation to make its full content public. How about a statement to say that whilst it may have looked like something was a wee bit amiss, there was actually nothing which could in any way shape or form incriminate anyone beyond reasonable doubt and cast-iron certainty and therefore we have concluded that this is just not worthy of any further comment, investigation, sanction, etc….. ya dee ya dee ya daa… blah, blah, blah.

And the SFA may, or may not, accept this judgement, it having been pronounced by people who are of course upstanding, professional, worthy souls, and therefore cannot bring themselves to do anything other than issue a notice of intention to maybe do something else about this affair to completely and utterly satisfy themselves that said statement was an accurate reflection of the state of affairs…. so perhaps an independent inquiry of their own could be started….. maybe… sometime… but a letter first to the club to advise their intention might be correct in the 1st instance. Aye, that’ll do.

By which time, ladies and gentlemen, we will all have moved on to other matters… such as…. oh I don’t know….. Football ? Because this is certainly not.

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paulmac2Posted on9:31 pm - May 20, 2013


Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 20:01
21 1 Rate This
upthehoops says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 19:55

I caught ten minutes of Radio Clyde earlier and heard a pundit (Gary Ralston I think) say the SFA can’t take away Rangers licence no matter what. He is far from alone in the media in holding that view, and I suspect it is indeed also the view of the SFA. Where does it leave the game in Scotland when so many media writers are prepared to publicly state that no matter what rule is broken, or what crime is committed, you can’t under ANY circumstances withdraw the licence of one particular club?

=======================

This is sounding like the ‘you can’t take the titles’ defence, say it often enough and it becomes fact.

However, the fact that the removal of the licence/membership is being discussed on Clyde SSB tells me that they know something is about to break shortly and it wont be good news.
…………………………………………….

In laymens terms it’s called getting your punches in first..

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Long Time Lurker

Long Time LurkerPosted on9:34 pm - May 20, 2013


Hector the Inspector on KDS – interesting theory re Phil’s latest tweet:

Phil MacGiollaBhain ‏@Pmacgiollabhain 11m
A fine chap at Pinsent Masons thinks that their urgent work for Sevco has apparently been “put on hold”. I can’t think why…

Could Sevco be struggling to pay their bills? Are Pinset Masons refusing to offer a credit line and looking for an up front cash payment?

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smartie1947Posted on9:35 pm - May 20, 2013


i obviously remember the celtic players well but alan gordon, jim o’rourke, arthur duncan, alex cropley, pat stanton etc….

And not forgetting the most underrated footballer in Scotland in the 60’s and early 70’s.
One, Alex Edwards (Dunfermline and Hibs)
A little nark on the pitch, but boy could he play. Fabulous crosser of a moving ball, incisive passer and exceptional at dead ball freekicks. Would have had dozens of caps if he had played for either of the O.F. Played European football as a 16 year-old amateur before he signed his first pro contract with Dunfermline on his 17th birthday. What memories- midweek matches against Valencia, Everton, West Brom, Ujpest and Slovan Bratislava. and many more. A long time since Fife had that sort of regular entertainment.

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newtzPosted on9:43 pm - May 20, 2013


CtH hits 10k ….
many congrats …… x
time for a Brucey Bonus ……….. ?

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twopandaPosted on9:50 pm - May 20, 2013


Let’s cut to the chase
Some `Authority[ties]` – Must Now be involved

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greenockjackPosted on10:03 pm - May 20, 2013


Mullach

I don´t think many are questioning authenticity.
What is up for debate is:-

– if documents are altered or edited in any way.
– the context, how selective are the leaks and what has not been leaked on same subject, eg. tapes of conversation (parts of).
– motive behind the leaks.
– management of the leaks process. (Drip-feeds and reacts to events/challanges/ waits for events?)

What we know
The common denominator would seem to be CW.

Several of the well connected Celtic supporters know about the leaks and tell us that they will continue and ramp up in impact value.
Several of the senior RTC posters (including RTC) have given the thumbs-up to Charlotte.
Charlotte tweeted giving sideways stick to a Rangers supporters spokesman.

When Charlotte asked about SDM and Jack Irvine, she knew exactly what she was implying before she posted the 2 e-mails (JI/CW).

I think she came to TSFM because she was scorned elsewhere (legal reasons) or someone else was scorned and passed the material on to Charlotte.

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on10:07 pm - May 20, 2013


The SFA and the distinct lack of ‘leaks’.
================================

Wrt the continuing TRFC debacle: we have been giving the SFA – and Ogilvie in particular – plenty of well-deserved abuse in the last year or so.

The only common ground for all Scottish football fans – including TRFC fans – seems to be the absolute disdain held for the national association.

So why has nobody from within the SFA leaked damaging information about Ogilvie, Regan, the 5 way agreement, the TRFC negotiations, etc. ?

Shirley, at least some of the SFA employees must be appalled at how the organisation has dealt with the TRFC issues – and how the public perception of the SFA is now at an all time low ?

I don’t understand why we are not getting some inside info from Hampden – especially since Green/Whyte have embarrassed the SFA hierarchy wrt the assurances given last year to secure the club membership.

Is there not a ‘Charlotte’ in Hampden…? 🙄

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jimlarkinPosted on10:13 pm - May 20, 2013


anybody know who’s in charge of the petition to get the 5way agreement officially released?

has it been passed to the SFA
who at the SFA was it addressed to?

we demand to know who these people are?!

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briggsbhoyPosted on10:18 pm - May 20, 2013


On what I heard on SSB there is nobody who plays the devil’s advocate and challenges the Rangers are the same team mantra within the panel. The host did a half hearted attempt at it at the end of the show when he asked what would cause the end of Rangers or any team for that matter as we know if it’s not administration or liquidation, apparently nothing, a bit like Blackadder.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on10:20 pm - May 20, 2013


twopanda says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 21:50

Let’s cut to the chase
Some `Authority[ties]` – Must Now be involved
————————————————————
And issues resolved, for once!!

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spanishceltPosted on10:32 pm - May 20, 2013


smartie1947 says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 21:35

And not forgetting the most underrated footballer in Scotland in the 60′s and early 70′s.
One, Alex Edwards (Dunfermline and Hibs)
A little nark on the pitch, but boy could he play. Fabulous crosser of a moving ball, incisive passer and exceptional at dead ball freekicks. Would have had dozens of caps if he had played for either of the O.F.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Alex Edwards was a fantastic players of that there is no doubt but playing for ”either” of the old firm in the 60s and 70s didnt always mean you got international recognition, the entire Lisbon lion team including the sub got career totals of around 120 caps between them, this is a team of 12 scots that on the whole won 9 in a row, played in 2 european champions finals, beat some of the supposed best teams in the world, reached the semi final of the european cup winners cup before the 9 in row run started, and averaged 10 caps each throughout their entire careers.

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SquigglePosted on10:34 pm - May 20, 2013


greenockjack – are you referring to AT?

‘I think she came to TSFM because she was scorned elsewhere (legal reasons) or someone else was scorned and passed the material on to Charlotte.’

Others have suggested this but when AT was tweeting on the story that never was he suggested that it would cover new ground, whatever CF has given us it hasn’t been new ground, so I’m noy so sure about AT being the source/ conduit.

I do think the material has come from close to CW first and then CG but possibly without their consent or knowledge, I am more interested in the motive. As I posted on Saturday night, I think its a diversion using information we are all going to be entertained/ scandalised by, but that will not cause lasting harm to anyone still in the frame or yet to emerge.

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upthehoopsPosted on10:35 pm - May 20, 2013


briggsbhoy says:
Monday, May 20, 2013 at 22:18

================================

Graham Spiers has said they are a new club on Radio Clyde as has Andy Walker. Both say they don’t bother of course as long as the fans see them as the same club! To be fair to Spiers he said recently on Radio Scotland that every insolvency expert he has spoken to has confirmed they are a new club.

It is testimony to the cultural influence they maintain in Scotland that so many media people buy the line they’re not a new club. Some through blindness to reality, and others no doubt through fear of intimidation.

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on10:35 pm - May 20, 2013


jimlarkin says:

Monday, May 20, 2013 at 22:13

anybody know who’s in charge of the petition to get the 5way agreement officially released?

has it been passed to the SFA
who at the SFA was it addressed to?

we demand to know who these people are?!
=====================

Jim it may surprise you – it did me, but it (the draft of it has been about for months) look back 2 days its there.
Don’t reckon it made it from draft if you read it.

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