The Existence of Laws

A Blog by James Forrest for TSFM

I am a socialist, and as a socialist I believe in the fundamental goodness of people. Some people find that hard to believe when they read the stuff I write.

I published my first novel recently, on politics and the corrupting nature of it, and it is a deeply cynical book, a book where no-one has clean hands come the end. What has surprised some of those who’ve read it is that I didn’t focus on the lies and smears of the right, but the hypocrisy and deceit of those who claim to be of the left.

Corruption, you see, doesn’t respect political boundaries or points of view. It’s like rainwater. It finds every crack, and gets in there.

My political beliefs revolve around two apparently paradoxical elements; the belief in the inherent decency of people and the need for a strong, and powerful, state. I believe the second underpins the first, and this brings me into conflict with a lot of people, some on the left and some on the right. Too many people see the state as inherently evil, as something that interferes too much in the lives of ordinary people. As something suffocating.

Yet the state exists to protect us. It exists to provide a safety net. It exists to regulate and to oversee. If the state is made up of bad people, if the gears of society are captured by those with malicious or selfish intent, the results are obvious; war, corruption, chaos.

The vast majority of our problems in the modern age can be neatly summed up in two lines from Yeats’ poem “The Second Coming”, which I used to open my novel. “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”

We live in a time when those who are protecting their own interests have assumed such power that they’ve cowed the rest of us. They have become a law unto themselves. They have changed the nature of the game, because they have sapped our will to the extent some barely put up a fight anymore. The weak get weaker, and the strong use their strength to crush the rest even more. It is a vicious struggle, a downward spiral.

Society is held together not only by the endeavour and common interests of its citizens but by a collection of laws. We elect the people who make those laws. They do so in our name, and we can remove that right every four years. That is a powerful thing, and we do not appreciate it enough. The present corruption exists because we allow it to exist.

The people around me continue to puzzle over my uncommon interest in the affairs of a football club on the west of Glasgow. My own club plays in the east end. I tell those who ask that my primary interest in the goings-on at the club calling itself Rangers is no longer about football; how could it be, after all? With promotion this year they are still a full two divisions below us, emasculated, skint, weak and unstable. If we were fortunate enough to draw them in cup competition the match would be over, as a tie, by the halfway point … in the first half.

In footballing terms they are an utter irrelevance.

Rangers is more than a football club to me. They are a symbol. Their unfolding calamity is an on-going outrage. What is happening there, what is being allowed to happen, is an offense to decency. It is a stain on the face of our country.

In short, it is a scandal. It is a scandal without parallel in sport.

Yet it’s not just a sports story either. If it was, I might not be so focussed on it. What is happening at Rangers is a colossal failure of governance. It is a damning indictment against the very people who are supposed to oversee our game. It is a disgraceful abrogation of responsibility from those at the top, those who claim to be “running things.”

If this is not a failure of governance it is a result of corruption at the heart of our national sport. It says they are bought and paid for, and I will say no such thing here.

So let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ll say instead that what they are is weak, indecisive, inept and disconnected from reality.

It reminds me of our political class, which has become insular and ignorant about what the public wants, and what it needs. It’s not a wonder parties like UKIP can achieve national vote shares of 25% at local elections. Nigel Farage strikes me as a dog-whistle politician, the kind who knows how to appeal to a select group of voters. He is little different to Charles Green, the man who beguiled Rangers fans into handing over large amounts of money, because he was “standing up for the club.” It is easy to do what he did, easy to do what Farage is doing.

Real leadership requires toughness. Say what you like about the Tories, but they have that in spades. Yeats was right about the worst being full of passionate intensity. Green was. Farage is. Cameron and Osborne personify it in their political outlook.

It is easy to be cowed by blunt force politics, and by “tough talking Yorkshire men” and venomous speeches about “strivers and skivers.” The politics of divide and conquer is the oldest form of politics there is, and it’s no surprise to see it practiced by some of the vested interests in the game here in Scotland. Yet, lest we forget … something significant happened last year. The maligned and the ignored, the weak and the voiceless found something they never realised they had. They discovered that, in a very real sense, the power was in their hands.

Last year, the fans rose up when the governing bodies and the media went all-out to save Rangers from the self-inflicted wounds caused by a decade of cheating, malpractice and ineptitude. I have no problem calling that what it was.

What happened at Rangers seemed incredible, but it was all too predictable, and some of us had been talking about it for years before it hit. The Association seemed caught in the headlights but it would amaze me if they really were as insular and ignorant as they appeared. They must have known how bad the outlook was for Rangers. They just chose to ignore it.

They were aided and abetted by a thoroughly disreputable media, a collection of cowards and compromisers, charlatans and frauds, masquerading as journalists, but who long ago laid aside any claim to be bold investigators and settled for commenting on events as they unfolded. More often than not, with their ill-informed opinions, sometimes due to weaknesses in intellect and others wilfully ignorant, they failed even in that.

Entire newspapers became PR machines for crooks and swindlers. They aided in the scam because they didn’t do their jobs, some because they were lazy, some because they were incompetent and others because they wanted a seat at the table and were willing to sacrifice whatever integrity they once had in exchange for one.

That all of this was embraced by the Rangers fans is amazing to me. They trusted when they should have been asking questions. They closed their eyes, covered their ears and sang their battle tunes at the top of their voices so they wouldn’t have to hear anything they didn’t like. As incredible as I found it then, and still find it now – and now, even more so, when they have already seen the results of it once – I find it pathetic too, and I do feel pity for some of them.

A lot of these people are genuine football fans, and nothing more. They have no interest in the phony narrow nationalism, or the over-blown religion, or the notion of supremacy which manifested itself in a ludicrous statement from McCoist when interviewed recently on Sky.

Some of the Rangers fans look at their team of duds, kids and journeymen, they look at a boardroom of cowards and crooks, they look at a failing manager in his first (and last) job in the game and at a dark future and are not in the least bit impressed by, or interested in, the chest-out arrogance espoused in those ridiculous words “we are the people.” They know full well that their present crisis was made by men like McCoist, and they understand that pretentious posturing is not an act born of strength, but a scrambling around in the gutter, and a symptom of weakness.

They understand their position, and they hate it. And because they care about Rangers, because they value the club, because they cherish those things that made it a great Scottish institution, they want that back. They understand that before the Union Jack waving, Sash singing, poppy wearing, Nazi saluting, Orange element became the public face of their support Rangers meant something else, and that, above all things, is what pains them the most.

People do not hate Rangers. When the country appeared to turn its back last year, they were turning the back on favouritism and the bending of rules. Yet it would be a lie to say that there is not an element of dislike in the gleeful mockery of many rival fans.

But they don’t hate Rangers either. They hate the version of it around which a certain section of the support continues to dance. They hate the version which hates, and so too do many, many, many Rangers supporters, and they definitely deserve better.

David Murray chose not to openly challenge that version. Indeed, he encouraged certain strands of it to flourish and grow, with his “Britishness Days” and his effort to turn the club into the “team that supports the troops.” Other clubs have done as much, if not more, for the British Army than the one that plays out of Ibrox. Other clubs have given more money. Other clubs have lent their support to those on the front lines. They just chose to do it with respect, and with class, and with dignity. They chose to do it in private, understanding that there eventually comes a tipping point between looking after the ends of the soldiers and using them to promote your own.

The army has not battened on to Rangers. Rangers has battened on to them, and although it is unclear when an altruistic motive became darker, what started out as a gesture of solidarity is now used to entrench division and promote a notion of superiority.

Craig Whyte took over from Murray and immediately understood the lure of the “dog whistle.” He knew too that the media would accept whatever he told them, without question, and as he spoke up for “Rangers traditions” he made sure the lunatic fringe was well onside. He met face to face with the hard-core extremists in the support first and made them his praetorian guard. They spoke up for him until the day the club entered administration.

So, whereas Murray pandered to them and Whyte used them to further his own ends, it was only a matter of time before someone suggested to Charles Green that he could use the same tactics to win over the support. He went even further and blatantly promoted and encouraged this mind-set, and stoked the hate and nonsense to frightening new heights. The same people who cheered Whyte to the rafters jumped on board the Big Blue Bus and the results are clear.

Through all of it, the ordinary Rangers fan has seen his club buffered against the rocks, battered, broken, smashed to smithereens and sunk. Now there’s a big hole in the side of the lifeboat, and they are terrified that further tragedies await.

They are right to be concerned. Much of the media is still not telling them what they need to know. The people in charge of their club – the owners who have lied, the former hack who covered up the truth about Whyte and now acts as a mouthpiece for Green, the “club legends” who are content to sup with the devil and take his greasy coin when they should be standing toe-to-toe with the fans – are trying to silence those members of the press who do have facts to present.

How many times now have media outlets been banned from Ibrox for daring to report the truth? The manager who demanded the names of a committee last year defends those inside the walls who are desperate to keep secret the things that are going on. He is either an unprincipled coward, or he is, himself, bought and paid for. The fans suffer for it.

The “inconvenient truth” is still being kept from them, and this denies them any chance to play an active role in their club. Indeed, it is all too possible that they’ve passed a point of no return, and that their club is heading for a new liquidation event and it can no longer be stopped.

In either case, their power has been eroded to the point at which they must feel they have nothing left to do but stand back and watch what happens next.

They are wrong. I am a socialist. I believe in the inherent good of people. I think the ordinary decent Rangers fans are the only people left who can save their club … and the means by which they will do it is as simple as it could be.

They must stand up for “big government.” They must embrace the need for a “strong state.” They must lobby the SFA, and they must trust the SFA and they must get the SFA to follow its own rules and thereby save them from any further harm.

There is a tendency amongst some Celtic fans to see our governing bodies as pro-Rangers. If it is true then those running our game are ruining Scottish football without benefiting the thing they love more. The incalculable harm that has been done to Rangers in the last 20 some months is a direct result of the subservient media and the willingness of the football authorities to be “deaf, dumb and blind.” Those who believe this has actually helped the Ibrox club have not been paying attention in class. It has irrevocably scarred them, and it may yet have played a hand in destroying them once and for all, as a force if not as a club entirely.

For years, the SFA sat and did nothing as a club in their association operated a sectarian signing policy. They did nothing whilst the fans sang sectarian songs. In their failure to act they strengthened those elements of the Rangers support, instead of isolating, alienating and eventually helping to eliminate those who saw that club as a totem pole of division and hate. Their failure over EBT’s, and their lack of scrutiny, led to one of the greatest scandals in the history of sport, and I say that with no equivocation at all. The testimony of their registrations officer in the Lord Nimmo Smith investigation was a disgrace and in years to come it will rank as one of the most disreputable and damaging moments in the association’s history.

The most egregious failures of all were the failures in the so-called “fit and proper person” tests, which allowed first Whyte and then Charles Green to assume controlling positions at Ibrox. They will pass the buck and say the responsibility lies with the club itself, in much the same way as they are content to let the club investigate itself at the present time, but any neutral who looks at this stance knows it is unprincipled and spineless. It’s like letting the defence set the terms at a trial. It is foxes investigating the chicken coop.

It is a blueprint for corruption, and a recipe for disaster.

It is now too late for the SFA to declare Green “unfit”, as it was too late when they finally slapped that title on Craig Whyte. He and his allies own Rangers, and they control its destiny. They can push the club to the wall if they choose, in the final extremity, if that gets them what they want. The time for changing that is past. The damage has already been done. The barbarians are not at the gates. They are inside the walls, and sacking the city.

The SFA will be forced to punish Rangers for the sins of the owners, for the second time in as many years, and whilst it is right that the club face up to that, all the better to send a message to other clubs and other owners, the SFA cannot be allowed to slither off the hook here as though this was none of their doing. Green will skip off into the sunset. Craig Whyte has yet to pay his fine. These people never cared about Scottish football and they don’t care now.

The SFA are supposed to. Our governing body is supposed to govern, for the good of the whole game, and not as a support system for a single club. What they have allowed to happen on their watch is absolutely shameful and if the people responsible were men at all, with any sense of accountability, they would resign en masse.

They can pretend ignorance, but only the truly ignorant would accept that. Craig Whyte was not inside Ibrox a week before RTC and other sites were dismantling his entire business history, with some of the people here doing the work the SFA would not. Whyte himself claims to have made the governing bodies aware of the scale of what was facing the club, and they did nothing at all. Heads should have rolled a year ago.

In October of last year, on this very site, I posted an article in which I wrote:

“Which isn’t to say the due diligence matter isn’t worrying, because, of course, it is. Again, no-one is going to convince me that the SFA has conducted proper due diligence on Charles Green and his backers. No-one will convince me they are satisfied that this club is in safe hands, and that the game in this country will not be rocked by a further implosion at Ibrox. They failed to properly investigate Craig Whyte, because of lax regulations requiring disclosure from the club itself, regulations which are just a joke, but they can be forgiven for that as the press was talking sheer nonsense about him having billions at his disposal, and a lot of people (but not everyone!) were either convinced or wanted to be convinced by him.

To have witnessed what Whyte did, to have witnessed the Duff & Phelps “process” of finding a buyer, and having Green essentially emerge from nowhere, with a hundred unanswered questions as to his background and financing, for the SFA to have given this guy the go ahead, only for it to blow up in their faces later, would annihilate the credibility of the governing body and necessitate resignations at every level. There would be no hiding place.”

There are times when it is fun to be right, but this is not one of them. It is dispiriting and disquieting to have been so on the nose. It scares the Hell out of me, as someone who loves football in this country, to have seen this matter clearly when the people running our game apparently either did not or chose to ignore very real, very obvious, concerns. The Internet Bampots had no special insight or access to information that was denied those at the SFA. We just weren’t prepared to ignore it and pretend that it wasn’t there. There was too much at stake.

I have become convinced that things will never change until the Rangers supporters join us in demanding the full and unabridged truth here. They need to come out from under the bed, and confront their fears. They need to be willing to take the consequences, so that their club can emerge clean from this, and start again, with all this behind them.

And it can all happen with one simple thing. The application of the rules.

The existence of laws comes down to a simple principle; they protect society from those elements within it who are interested only in their own selfish ends. We may cry out at those rules and regulations we see as “restrictive”, but the law was not made to restrict our freedoms but to protect them. Had the SFA years ago acted against Rangers sectarian signing policy, and the songs from the stands, the club would not have mutated to the point where there was no help on hand when they needed it the most. Let’s not kid ourselves about this; Whyte and Green were only able to grab control because the club itself has a dreadful image which put off respectable and responsible buyers. The SFA could have helped change that perception years ago and did nothing.

The SFA could have conducted its own investigation into who Craig Whyte was. They could have asked David Murray for full disclosure when he was running up £80 million of debt, a sum of money that is beyond belief for a single club in a small provincial backwater league. Had they had the guts to do that the club would never have spent itself into oblivion and forced the hand of Lloyds, which led indirectly to their ignominious end.

The SFA could have fully investigated Charles Green and the means by which he took control, instead of rushing through a license. His emergence at the last minute was transparently suspicious and designed to force them into a quick decision, but they did not have to bow to that pressure by making one, without being in possession of the facts, as it is now 100% clear they were not.

Had they asked for every document, had they insisted on legal affidavits and personal securities from investors (and this would have been perfectly legitimate and is common place in other licensing areas) none of this would have come to pass. After Craig Whyte they had a moral responsibility to the rest of the game to get this one right and their failure is without parallel in the history of Scottish football.

As the club hurtles towards a new abyss, names are cropping up which should send a shudder down the spines of every honest, genuine supporter of not only Rangers but every team in the land. The SFA claims that a strong Rangers is essential for the sake of Scottish football, but they have been extraordinarily lax in protecting that club, and therefore the game, from destructive elements. Craig Whyte and Charles Green had dubious personal histories, and the acquisition of the club itself was mired in controversy and scandal. Yet it was allowed.

Neither Green nor Whyte were known to have operated outside the law, yet neither was worthy of trust or stood up to scrutiny. Neither man should ever have been granted the status as fit and proper persons to assume a role in our national sport, and if it is true of them what can we say about the three men who are, presently, being touted as the Great White Hopes for a bright, new Rangers future; Dave King and the Easdale brothers?

King recently cut a deal with the South African government over an on-going dispute over taxes. In other words, he pled guilty and accepted the central plank of their argument; that for years he was engaged in wilfully with-holding vast revenues from their Treasury. The media does not like to put it like that, and the SFA seems willing to ignore it utterly, and this would be scandalous enough. But it does not stop there. HRMC rules – as well as the SFA’s own governance documents – actually bar him from serving on the board of the new club.

Last but not least, aside from being an admitted tax cheat, King is also awaiting trial in South Africa, having been indicted for corruption, forgery and fraud – 300 charges in total. Yet as recently as last week, we were told that the Association was willing to look at him and consider representations from his lawyers. This is almost beyond belief.

If Dave King’s position is untenable, and he is yet to be convicted of a crime, what can we say about the position of the Easdale’s? One of the two brothers, Sandy, has already served jail time. He is a convicted criminal, a fraudster nonetheless, who’s “victim” was the same Treasury who are appealing one case involving the old club and liquidated it entirely over another. This is precisely the kind of “businessman” the fit and proper person test was supposed to weed out, and if the SFA holds its nose here the reek will stink out the halls at Hampden for decades. If King or the Easdale’s are judged fit and proper, then who exactly is the test for? What exactly do you have to do to fail it? How do we explain the existence of laws, when these are not applied?

Pascal says “Law without force is impotent.” The SFA’s weakness has allowed one version of Rangers to destroy itself, and has allowed an existential risk to another. If the next power at Rangers resides in South Africa or Greenock I can say with some certainty that the Association is engaged in an even more dangerous roll of the dice, because the surfacing of fresh scandal will be an ever present risk, and will be of the sort no-one will survive.

The damage to Scottish football will take years to heal. The Scottish game has been through enough trauma. It does not need more. It barely survived the last calamity to hit Rangers. The rest of us should not be forced to pay the price of the next one.

The greater damage will be done to Rangers itself. If the Green crisis ends in another collapse – as it well might; another administration event is a certainty, and another liquidation is a much more likely prospect than it was before 14 February 2012 – the club will once again have to start from the bottom, and this time the reputational damage will be impossible to repair. The club faces internal strife, sporting sanctions, and criminal investigations. The last takeover might be declared a fraud. the Whyte takeover will almost certainly be. The share issue might be invalid, as well as criminal, and the people involved may well end up in jail. Lawsuits could follow from investors, there could be as yet unknown consequences from the Upper Tier Tax Tribunal (thank you Brogan Rogan for pointing out what those might be) and a host of other issues.

Rangers fans must be the loudest voices here. How do you want the world to view your club in years to come? Do you want one to be proud of, or one forever associated with the shame and disgrace of these days gone by? The one which bailed out on its tax obligations. The one with supporters who disgrace your very name. The one which allowed Whyte and Green to take you to the cleaners and send you to the wall. The one which handed over control to one convicted criminal and another awaiting trial. Do you want to be reborn clean, or mired in the muck?

David Murray destroyed your financial stability. He made it so no bank would issue you a line of credit and no investor of note wanted to buy. Craig Whyte liquidated you. Charles Green has cast the future of the Newco into doubt and acted in a manner which has annihilated your credibility with the financial markets for decades to come.

Between these three men, they have taken everything from you, and the press and the people who run the game here, as well as some of your own blindly ignorant fans, have allowed them to do all this and more. Now they conspire to hand the keys to Ibrox to other men of questionable character, who will wreck further havoc on the reputation of the club.

The Scottish Football Association has damaged the game it was supposed to protect, but above all else their greatest failure of governance was a failure to protect one of its biggest clubs from its own excesses and those of its owners.

Rangers fans, the SFA have betrayed your trust, more than the trust of any other club. What you must insist on now is full disclosure and transparency from the powers that be in Hampden. The SFA has to end the charade of allowing your club to handle this in-house. They must hand everything over to an outside agency – whether a legal one, or a footballing body like UEFA – and they must demand co-operation and answers, and threaten to withhold the license if they don’t get them.

You must not be afraid of that. You must embrace it. The men with their hands on the gears at Ibrox are motivated by money, and nothing more. If the license is withdrawn their “investments” are worthless. They cannot risk that.

You must demand that the rules on fit and proper persons are applied, and where necessary even made stronger, to prevent your club falling into unclean hands. You must demand that they protect your reputation from further damage, by getting this all out there and acting accordingly, even if that means your club does not play football for at least a year.

You must be willing to suck it all up, knowing that what will emerge is a Rangers which has been cleansed and moves forward with honour, and dignity, led by custodians who treasure it rather than those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

The Rangers Standard has recently emerged as a genuine voice for those in your support who are sick and tired of what Rangers has become, and want it restored to something that is worthy of the love and respect in which you hold it. On that website, there are discussions about the kind of club you seek to be and about whether the institution of Rangers is about more than just football.

If that’s how you feel about it then you know it is about more than how many titles the club can claim, about more than just results on the park, about more than just the game. Rangers, like Celtic, is an idea. It has to be something you are proud of.

I am a socialist, but one with a fevered imagination and a tendency to write very dark things. This piece won’t have been good reading for some of you (perhaps all of you haha!) but I think there’s more hope in here than in other things I’ve written.

In spite of everything that’s come to pass, I still believe. I believe in Scottish football. I believe in our system of football governance, even if those who are working in it are failing on some level.

In society, as much as we strain against them, laws exist for our protection. To fail to enforce them is to leave us at the mercy of those elements who would do us harm. The rules of football ensure the protection of all clubs, not just a few.

The failure to enforce the rules has never had graver consequences than here in Scotland.  The irony is that bending and breaking them has hurt the one club those violations were designed to help. It cannot be allowed to happen again.

The rules must be applied without fear or favour.

The best must find their conviction, and their passionate intensity once more.

James is a co-editor of the On Fields of Green Blog http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/

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Tom Byrne

About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

5,802 thoughts on “The Existence of Laws


  1. In a few months time Walters weekly press release will contain the phrase ” I didnt realise” and end with “if only I had known”.every week.


  2. I was talking to one of my Sevco mates wrt TRFC returning to the top Division and getting in to a shape that would them to challenge CFC.
    Tried to point out to him that it’s taken Celtic,rescued by Fergus,19 years to get to where they are.There are no shortcuts.


  3. Upthehoops says
    I don’t think anyone can argue about Sir Alex being number one, but in terms of a single achievement, I don’t believe he has bettered Stein’s winning of the European Cup in the circumstances he did. Sir Alex’s Champions League’s came with all the cash Man Utd could throw at it. Winning the Cup Winners Cup with Aberdeen was fantastic, but it was a cup with a far lower standard in general than the Champions Cup. I’d go as far to say it’s unlikely that any other country in Europe would even consider the notion that the Cup Winners Cup is an equal achievement to the Champions Cup. Such notions have been widespread in Scotland for years, but of course the reasoning behind them is zilch to do with Aberdeen’s achievements.

    ————————————————————–
    I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say Aberdeen’s ECWC win was equal to any European cup win??
    Beating the mighty Bayern Munich and Real Madrid on the way however gives it added kudos imho.
    The fact is that Aberdeen were one of the best teams in Europe at that time and of that there is no doubt(Super cup winners remember ;-))


  4. Wonder who he’s referring to………………

    Gregory Ioannidis ‏@LawTop20 33m
    It offends against fairness & justice for a national federation to have secret agreements with an applicant club and/or its company operator

    I believe he’s in Glasgow this weekend.


  5. torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 12:02

    I’m afraid a lot of them still believe that Celtic and Rangers are the same size financially.

    It wasn’t true of the old club which is being liquidated and it is even less true of the new one which seems to be struggling to make ends meet.

    On a like for like basis, and assuming no European football for either club, Celtic make substantially more money. And to put that in perspective, Celtic still could not break even without that European income (or without clever trading on the player market).

    Until the Rangers support either accept that is the case, or do something to change it, then they will not see the way forward properly. Celtic could of course see reduced income, in fact they will this year, but that is quite clever actually. They have the money to cut ticket costs and they hope that will bring more people back. It remains to be seen if that will work.

    Reality needs to take a hold at Ibrox, so long as they are fed hubris and delusions of supremacy it isn’t going to happen. People telling them what they want to hear to help a short term fix is not serving them well.

    The reality which Fergus McCan brought to Celtic, and accepting it would take time to fix is really the only way forward. That or another “sugar daddy” obviously.


  6. Some great posts re Fergus McCann. How he gets mentioned in the same breath as stinkin, sinkin sevco is beyond me. There is NO comparison!

    I especially enjoyed ‘chipm0nk’s’ contribution this morning about the wee man.
    All your points stand up and, oh how the MSM in this country absolutely hated him for it! Let’s face it, they hated him!

    Fergus stated his plans, stuck to them, and the meeja dug and dug, and dug some more.
    What did they find? Err, not a lot actually. So they had to make things up and resort to character assassinations of him.

    The fact that they couldn’t intimidate him must have made their blood boil, lol.

    This wee man fulfilled his promises, was up front with no agendas and wasn’t a charlatan ‘Billionaire.’

    The sfa never went that extra mile to help him. In fact if there was the odd wee obstacle they
    could use, there was no hesitation!

    So, in summary. If you’re the real deal, but a Celtic man, expect to be slaughtered by the meeja.
    On the other hand, if you are a spiv, or a whole nest of spivs working on behalf of the quintessential establishment mob…. expect favour in abundance!


  7. chipm0nk says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 12:17
    ================================================
    Totally agree.
    TRFC cannot move forward until it accepts where it’s starting from.Someone pointed out to me that Fergus left us with an assistant governor of the BoE,who then left us with the Former Home Secretary,who has left us with Mr Ian Bankier.All top level folk and if you look at the make up of the CFC board,executives with BT,Amazon etc then you have a board who are willing to take the tough decisions.
    Since O’Neill,Celtic managers have worked with falling budgets as costs were cut due to the economic climate.Most seasons CFC still covered their costs,even if there was not a lot left to invest in players etc.
    The board,especially PL come in for a bit of flack but they took the path necessary to keep CFC on an even keel.
    Until TRFC get a BoD willing to start at the bottom and build their way back,there is no hope,unless a sugar daddy comes forward.If he does,I reckon he’ll need £40m just to get through the next 2 years.If,at that time TRFC are back in the top Div,they’ll struggle to be 2nd unless many more millions are ploughed in.
    We can call for action from the SFA/SFL/BDO/Lord Hodge.Police etc.
    It won’t matter a jot until they learn to balance their books.

    With £7m losses in 7 months inc ST income.how much do we think TRFC lost in their 1st year.I’ll go for £14-15m.
    how much ST income has come in during the past couple of weeks.if 50% of last seasons that’s circa £3.3m net of VAT.
    That means the account will be showing a loss of £11-12m for this year,whilst containing £3m of next seasons money.

    How will they,as Alistair Johnston says,”Square the circle”.


  8. Gregory Ioannidis ‏@LawTop20 34m
    As football regulations are based on fairness and equality, transparency over licensing and registration matters must prevail.


  9. bogsdollox says:
    Friday, May 31, 2013 at 21:43
    ……
    Mild criticism of McCann?
    You open a sluice gate there bogs:
    Cue clatter of punters jumping on high horses.
    I admired McCann for a variety of reasons…
    …but before some of you guys get carried away.
    Some folk have short memories:

    “Shocked Celtic chief Fergus McCann was met by a storm of BOOS as he unveiled the League flag yesterday.
    McCann was mortified as furious Hoops fans DROWNED OUT the start of his speech before the 5- 0 win over Dunfermline.”

    …and please, please, don’t tell me it was a ‘small minority’. I was at that game, heard it and could hardly believe it. Yet over the years I don’t think I’ve ever met a fan who admitted booing at that game – now isn’t that odd?

    Cue shoal of TD’s


  10. selfassessor says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 08:34

    Agreed UTH. The point I was also trying to make however, is that Ferguson’s win percentage at Man U was 60%; Stein’s was 70% at Celtic.

    Yes I know that. I was offering my personal view also that Stein in terms of a single achievement has never been equaled.


  11. torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 12:38

    It won’t matter a jot until they learn to balance their books.

    With £7m losses in 7 months inc ST income.how much do we think TRFC lost in their 1st year.I’ll go for £14-15m.
    how much ST income has come in during the past couple of weeks.if 50% of last seasons that’s circa £3.3m net of VAT.
    That means the account will be showing a loss of £11-12m for this year,whilst containing £3m of next seasons money.

    How will they,as Alistair Johnston says,”Square the circle”.
    _________________
    the season tickets renewals have not been sent out yet according to FF
    only on eperson has admitted to received theirs and he was in the 5k a year club


  12. yakutsuki says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 12:36

    ==============================

    As an aside, he was not willing to accept the corruption in the SFA and in particular that demonstrated by Jim Farry.

    It took three years for that to get sorted out, but in the end Farry was sacked over the Cadete affair.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/292088.stm

    I believe he was considered by some as a great football administrator. Up to the point that he was sacked by the SFA for gross misconduct obviously.


  13. slimshady61
    Not pedantic at all slim ,you are right to correct my error as we accuse the MSM of laziness .
    My only excuse is that my memory is not what it used be ,I first noticed it when I frequented the jigging and kept forgetting I was married 😉


  14. bill1903 says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 12:02

    The fact is that Aberdeen were one of the best teams in Europe at that time and of that there is no doubt(Super cup winners remember )
    ——

    The fact is that Aberdeen were THE best team in Europe that year, by definition. We beat Bayern and Real in our own competition, and let Hamburg knock out all the chaff in the European Cup before giving them a fairly straighforward doing too. Ergo = The Best.

    You canna compare teams of different eras – endless pub debates shall ensue if you do – but I am entirely convinced that Aberdeen’s achievements were at least equal to the acme of anything any Glasgow team has ever done.


  15. flollowing on from newt’ post a wee bit earlier…

    http://www.icij.org/blog/2013/05/work-us-icij-hiring-investigative-reporters

    i’m guessing there won’t be any applicants from scotland’s msm

    interview questions
    1 – what’s the difference between liquidation and administration
    2 – what’s the difference between relegation and starting as a new entity
    3 – what’s the difference between a not guilty and a guilty [on 5 charges out of 50] verdict
    4 – what’s the difference between a “punishment” and a ‘consequence’
    5 – how can a “club” be seperate from a business entity
    6 – who would you ask to find out about a possible “secret – 5 way agreement”
    7 – if a chairman of a national ruling body [eg. SFA] was being paid by a member club,
    would you enquire as to why such an arrangement exists…

    msm bod..
    f”cuk that, i won’t bother applying for that job…far too difficult”…


  16. Yakutsuki @12:36

    Good summary of Fergus.

    I did not know him personally but remember him getting the same supporters bus as my older brother and I to Celtic matches around 1961. His father was headmaster at St. Modans in Stirling, so the family were well known. They lived in the house adjoined to our local library, which had a massive back garden (by our standards). My brother used to get invited there to play cricket! Aye no kick the can for the Fergus kid!
    The press tried to dish some dirt on his arrival at Parkhead. They contacted the Supporters club whose then President commented jokingly that Fergus still owed them 2 shillings membership fees. Unbelievably they printed it!!!! When contacted by a different newspaper on the same subject the Supporters club spokesman admitted it was a joke and invited Fergus to join them anytime he so desired.

    The MSM …..They never let you down.


  17. jimlarkin says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 13:30

    Knowing the answers to questions, or having access to people who can tell you those answers, is an entirely different matter to reporting said answers properly.

    If they are ignorant it is wilful ignorance,

    Personally I don’t think they are, they simply have to follow an agenda, and inconvenient facts are simply ignored or re-written. Or as Guidi (I think) has now decided, everything is a matter of opinion rather than a matter of fact. So he can think and say what he wants … it’s just his opinion after all.


  18. If you want a giggle, have a look at yesterday’s offering from the man with the wee white bricks.

    Apparently, the Incitatus installation, is akin to D Day – Operation Overlord. In fact, its not the end of the beginning, or even the beginning of the end, but, rather, the first steps toward a New Jerusalem in Govan. Leggo is partially correct, there is a Second World War analogy to be drawn, only its Operation Dynamo, with Incitatus leading the Ibrox fans in a last ditch defence, sacrificed and doomed, like the 51st at St Valery, while the money men escape and evade with their loot.

    Never, in the field of business, have so many, been so regularly duped, by so few….


  19. The trouble Sevco have is that if the spivs were not part of the original plan then all they will have done is make it a lot more expensive for the real Sevco fans to take control of the tribute act and once the spivs have milked enough money out they couldn’t care less what happens to the club after that .
    That is a mighty big gun to point at the peepil .You want your club to continue playing football then give us X amount ,if not we will shut the football side of the business down .
    The questions are
    How much will be enough and is it cash up front or lease back of the assets


  20. TW (@tartanwulver) says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 08:25

    16

    0

    Rate This

    torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 07:39

    _______________________________________________________

    To be fair to Smith, he is suffering a personal insolvency at a time of deep recession. And while his creditors will lose, his family will face eviction from their home and his personal possessions will be sold off. This will happen to someone who has a media presence, in full public glare of a great many people who would wish him ill on the basis of his footballing allegiances.

    My own ever increasing dislike of all things ‘Rangers newco/deadco’ related is based upon the machievellian determination the institutions varying incarnations have shown to unjustly game the system in their favour and then sidestep the consequences of its deeply unjust actions whenever these come to light, at the expense of quite literally everybody else in society, nevermind scottish football.

    Clearly this criticism does not extend to Gordon Smith in this instance. He has been guilty of many misjudgements in my view and their is a great deal I would disagree with him over… (…most of what comes out of his mouth, in fact!)
    But I see no evidence of sidestepping here. Its gone badly wrong and he seems to be accepting personal resonsibility, making what amends he can, and suffering deeply and personally as a result, rather than hiding behind some corporate scam to escape responsibility and consequences.
    He has my respect and sympathy for this.

    If his alma mater club could had only managed to do the same, Scottish football would be a healthier and happier place all round.


  21. slimshady61 says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 11:46

    by the 1990s, the Kellys and Whites may have been misty-eyed about the heritage in their hands, but frankly they couldn’t run a bath.
    =============================================================

    But they certainly knew how to empty baths and biscuit tins – some family dynasties may have started out believing in the Heritage but IMO they didn’t necessarily end-up that way.

    I still shiver when I think how close Celtic came to death and shudder when I think what might have happened if Dempsey had managed to get control for what would have been a short and disastrous period.

    Fergus had a vision pursued by a conviction and honesty which is seldom witnessed and he also dragged Celtic into a new age culturally. I often feel that many lauded as ‘Legends in their own lunchtime’ are products of PR spin but that ‘True Greats’ are actually people often disliked or derided because of their adherence to principle or to telling the truth.

    Through the 20/20 vision of hindsight I believe that for the vast majority of Celtic fans – especially those who lived through the period involved – there has been a sea-change in recognising Fergus for what he actually was and that was no less than a Celtic Savior.

    I had many conversations with Fergus on a professional level and once you got past his cantankerousness – mainly caused by pressure created by those opposed to his dream for Celtic and the media attacks launched against him personally and the club – it was difficult not to be impressed by him and I don’t impress easily 🙂

    He created a firm foundation allowing Celtic to evolve into today’s modern club and I truly believe that most Rangers fans would give their eye-teeth to see Rangers in the same boat as regards management expertise, probity and financial base.

    And I haven’t even mentioned the manager, team and on-field successes which are powered by that well-run and efficient boiler room built on the Bunnet Blueprint.


  22. resin_lab_dog says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 13:55
    ———————————————
    I think this forum has been remarkably restrained in not piling on comments about Gordon Smith (not that I was accusing you of saying otherwise, just noting it). I don’t think it’s a case of people wishing him and his family ill on a personal basis, but on a wider view, there are obvious parallels between his situation and that of Rangers, where he has been a major figure at critical times. Whatever his personal circumstances, I think most would agree with you that if his club had taken an honest hit, it would have been for the long term good of both themselves and Scottish football.


  23. On the personal tragedy for Smith and his family I think many posters here know how hard times have been for a helluva lot of people recently through circumstances they have no control over.

    Whatever has caused Smith’s financial problems there is one thing obvious and that is he isn’t a spiv as I have yet to see a spiv personally lose anything in a financial meltdown as they invariably use other people’s money.

    So it looks more like bad judgement or a bad decision and there are few of us who have not been guilty of that although possibly not with such disastrous consequences. The older I get the more I actually understand the full meaning behind: ‘There but for the Grace of God’.


  24. jimlarkin says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 14:25

    0

    0

    Rate This

    TW (@tartanwulver) says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 08:25

    torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 07:39

    ___________________________________________________

    You cannot buy or sell history clearly.
    But it is certainly possible to say that you have bought the history, in the same way as it is possible to register a plot of land on the moon, or the naming rights to a star. There is no shortage of people willing to sell you these things if you are daft enough to be taken in by them, and its possible for you subsequently to proudly claim ownership if you wish. But this is an emotional delusion rather than an enforceable legal fact.

    Nevertheless, if we are honest, emotional delusion is a large part of the life blood of football, isn’t it. (…well until Caley have won the Champions league.. obviously. )

    You are correct to assert that Smith has probably been less than astute at times and -barring extreme bad luck – this has probably impacted on his business success. But stupidity is not actually a crime, thankfully. And at least Smith has been left with the dignity of playing with and losing his own money (largely) rather than other peoples, and having the consequences of his dealings rebounding on himself, rather than innocent bystanders. A refreshing change in these times!


  25. spiers on bbc[sportsound]

    on about rangers, “getting back” !!!!!!!!!

    also, on about dundee – why dundee fans have to be wary of “these guys”
    who want to buy “the club”

    he said, if i give you 3 examples…dixon at dundee…vlad at hearts…and craig whyte at rangers!!!

    no mention of SDM – funny that…the man is a 1st class phud, why does he get on bbc ??????!!!


  26. TW (@tartanwulver) says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 14:29

    1

    0

    Rate This

    _______________________________

    I think this forum has been remarkably restrained in not piling on comments about Gordon Smith…

    _________________________________

    I agree. Without getting all self congratulatory, the absence of gloating at a human tragedy is very affirming, and may be surprising to some of this blogs detractors.


  27. jimlarkin says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 14:52

    spiers on bbc[sportsound]
    ———————————————-
    Because he has a nice middle class accent?

    Reminds me a bit of Harry Endfield’s Dick-Nice-But-Thick


  28. I must have missed this the other day – Rangers were due £2.1m for their second-place finish in the Clydesdale Bank Premier League in 2011/12.

    But BDO have confirmed that under the notorious 5-Way Agreement: “The right to this prize money was sold to Newco as part of the business and assets of the Company. Subsequently, to gain entry into the Football League, both Newco and the Company agreed to waive any rights to this money, which was retained by the SPL.”

    So the assets were sold by D&P to one of the Sevcos for £5.5 million but they were getting £2.1 million back from the SPL meaning the net cost was £3.4 million. Then, of course, there were the players that walked because Tupe Regulations weren’t followed – how much were they worth? Let’s call it a bargain £10 million.

    So actually Green’s consortium would have immediately earned £6.6 million by taking the assets off D&P’s hands.

    And that’s without taking into account all the other assets such as Ibrox Stadium, Murray Park, the players that didn’t walk, all the plant and machinery and Uncle Tom Cobley an’ all. And I’m too tired mentally to even work out the Jelavic money.


  29. ecobhoy says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:06

    ===========================

    And all agreed in advance of the CVA being rejected, which it was always going to be.

    Some deal they came up with, the company which had been Craig Whyte’s financial advisers when he bought Rangers in the first place.

    Basically a debt free new club, holding all of the assets of the old one, handed over for nothing. With the plan to be playing in the SPL, with the same registration and recognised as the same club.*

    That was really looking after the creditors wasn’t it.

    *Someone please tell me that wasn’t the plan all along.


  30. newtz says:

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 11:04

    A big success story is Richard Murphy(Tax Researc UK) ……

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2006/06/15/jersey-passes-law-allowing-%E2%80%98sham%E2%80%99-trusts-for-use-by-tax-evaders/

    Another is ICIJ ….. http://www.icij.org/

    The Truth Will Out ……..
    ==========================================================

    Newtz…I am delighted you have posted links for two of my favourite “taxation/accountancy” blogs.

    Richard Murphy has already stated that the whole Rangers omnishambles could not have taken place were it not for the nonsensical concept of “offshore” dealings, which are used to hide all sorts of nefarious corporate and personal misdeeds.

    These comments are not entirely OT since they are inextricably linked to all the main players in this scenario.

    I would recommend Nick Shaxson’s …”Treasure Islands…how they stole the world…” to all readers, since it explains, in words on one syllable which even I can understand, how all these spivs operate…and leave the final tab to us to pick up.


  31. resin_lab_dog says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 13:55
    ——————————

    Agreed!

    Smarter men than Gordon Smith have lost money even though they had good business sense, without knowing the background of his financial problems, I prefer to pity than mock. There are many people who get themselves into trouble trying to do good things; it’s the ones doing the bad stuff we should be concentrating on.


  32. Anyone on here know anything about the ASA investigation into Sevco most successful club claim? I had totally forgot about that until saw it mentioned on twitter earlier. Done a google search for info on it but to no avail. Seem’s like it could give a definitive answer on the new club debate etc. I would assume they would be a London based organization, so should be free from Scottish political influence?


  33. essexbeancounter says:

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:15

    I’m afraid the accountancy profession has some way to go to sort itself out. The piece below, is now nearly two years old, but, sadly things have gotten worse in the interim.

    ” During the House of Lords inquiry last November, the “Big Four” chiefs seemed to suggest they considered it perfectly acceptable to deceive investors by fudging “going concern” statements on behalf of banking clients”

    Not just banking clients, for how many years was the “going concern” concept fudged at Ibrox?

    http://www.ianfraser.org/accountancy-has-abandoned-its-primary-role-to-keep-capital-markets-honest-to-detriment-of-us-all/


  34. chipm0nk says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 14:47

    ecobhoy says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 14:42

    =================================================================

    I made it clear that my comments applied to Smith and his family – irrespective of what Smith has or hasn’t done I have no problem in feeling compassion at the very minimum for his family and I actually do as well for Smith.

    There is the possibility that if I knew the details of the affair that I might form any one of a number of opinions about Smith’s business abilities but it would be unlikely to have any affect on my compassion unless shady dealing was involved. However, I have come across many totally honest people who have lost everything because of debt which they weren’t always totally responsible for. Often there might be watertight legal reasons for their liability which wouldn’t pass a morality test.

    It’s always worth remembering that sometimes people act a guarantors for family and friends with little regard as to the financial peril that they place themself in purely through acting with the best of motives and a good heart or through love.

    No doubt someone will dig into his business dealings – I personally have no interest – but I retain an open mind as to why he has landed in the financial mess that he has and will not rush to judgement in the total absence of any actual facts.


  35. ecobhoy says:

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:26

    Agreed, and it would appear that Mr Smith is taking personal responsibility, which in itself is commendable.


  36. oldcobrokemyheartbycheating says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:18

    Why would the Advertising Standards Authority give ” …a definitive answer on the new club debate …”.

    It’s already been done.

    The members club changed itself into a private limited company. The private limited company changed itself into a public limited company. The public limited company is being liquidated.

    A new club was formed, whilst the old one still exists, the new one bought the assets from the old one. It calls itself Rangers and plays out of Ibrox stadium.

    A ruling in relation to a specific advert, from the ASA, won’t change that.

    FFS the chairman, major shareholder and communications director have all acknowledged that liquidation killed the old club and that this is a new one. What else do people want.


  37. ecobhoy says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:26

    ======================

    Like I said I have no issue with any of that.

    The bottom line however is that he is responsible for £600,000 debt, whether it is money he spent himself, or guarantees he provided on behalf of others.

    That does not preclude me having sympathy for him and his family, or anyone else concerned. However let’s not pretend that the £600,000 debt he is in just appeared out of nowhere.

    Someone else is down that money.


  38. chipm0nk says:

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 14:38

    I thought Gordon Smith had some sort of business degree.
    ================================================

    Chipmunk…I do recall he has a BA in Accountancy/Economics from what was the Glasgow College of Technology, now Glasgow Caledonian University, and studied, if not passed all parts, of the ACCA exams.

    As a contemporary of mine, he always struck me as a decent and intelligent guy, notwithstanding his later career choices and decisions.

    I am left thinking…”…there but for the grace of God go I…!


  39. ecobhoy says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 14:42
    4 3 Rate This

    On the personal tragedy for Smith and his family …
    ———–

    Well said ecobhoy, and others. It’s a personal tragedy and hardly a topic for this forum.


  40. ecobhoy says:

    ‘There but for the Grace of God’.
    ===================================================================

    Ecobhoy….thank you for that…I posted just before I read your post.


  41. HMRC CVA position

    HMRC have stated definitively that, where the CVA proposals for a football club contain provisions to pay football creditors in full, then they will use their vote to reject the proposals unless they too are paid in full which is highly unlikely to be the case. As a reminder, a CVA proposal is rejected if 25% by value of votes reject, or if 50% by value of votes reject having excluded any connected votes such as inter company loans or directors loans. There will be clubs therefore that by simple virtue of the mathematics, will enter Administration with no feasible CVA exit. The Club would then be at the mercy of the FA and FL regarding its future.

    In order to understand how we have arrived at this impasse we need to look at recent events;

    February 1992
    English Premier League formed in a break-away from the Football League. BSky B and BT Group TV deal now worth £3 billion.

    March 2002
    ITV Digital, sponsors of the FL enter Administration reneging on a £900 million sponsorship deal and causing financial difficulties to many FL Clubs.

    October 2002
    Leicester City enter Administration

    September 2003
    HMRC lose preferential status of claims in an insolvency by amendments to the Insolvency Act 1986.

    May 2004
    Leicester City CVA approved with football creditors paid in full, Leicester go on to obtain promotion back to Premier League in 2004, culminating in FL and FA introducing the points deduction rules after complaints from other League Clubs.

    December 2004
    Wrexham receive first 10 points deduction for going into Administration.

    December 2004
    IRC V Wimbledon: HMRC challenge the football creditors rule in Wimbledon CVA. HMRC lose on ground that funds paying football creditors in full are third party funds which would not be available to HMRC in any event.

    May 2008
    HMRC v Leeds Utd: HMRC challenge outcome of CVA on grounds that votes used to obtain the necessary majority were actually connected and therefore disallowed. Case never gets to Court as Administrators fail the CVA. Leeds deducted additional 15 points for failing to exit Administration via CVA.

    August 2010
    HMRC V Portsmouth: HMRC challenge outcome of CVA, again challenging voting values, but lose on all accounts.

    May 2012
    HMRC v Football League: HMRC challenge FL’s rights to withdraw membership on insolvency and the football creditors rule. HMRC lose on both issues and do not appeal.

    November 2012
    Rangers (In Administration) win in a tax tribunal against assessments of £43m by HMRC over its use of Employee Benefits Trust (“EBT’s”) to pay players between 2001 and 2010.

    December 2012
    HMRC appeal against Rangers decision… to be continued.

    The high profile casualties of Portsmouth, Crystal Palace, Southampton, Leeds United, Wimbledon, Ipswich Town, Derby County, Leicester City, Barnsley, Bradford City, QPR and Hull City all share the misfortune of relegation from the lucrative Premier League. The football industry is fundamentally different from other industries in that, however carefully managed, a club is dependent upon results over 38 games in a season. In 2008 none of the Newcastle United’s business plans envisaged relegation from the Premier League for the first time – only the wealth and support of owner Mike Ashley prevented Newcastle from joining the above statistics. One has to ask therefore whether the fortunes of Leicester who avoided a points penalty really justify the spiral of punishment meted out to the likes of Portsmouth, Southampton, Leeds, Wimbledon and Bradford.

    The football creditor rule was designed to protect member clubs from the fall out from the collapse of one of its members. Its impact has now however;

    Encouraged football clubs to take risks in buying players when in danger of relegation with the benefit of an insurance policy funded by TV monies due in the future; and

    Placed many football clubs in danger of extinction by virtue of a zero tolerance stance from HMRC who can block its ability to remain in business.

    It is not practical to withdraw the football creditor rule overnight as this would leave clubs exposed unfairly. Most transfers are paid over a 4 year period and therefore it could be withdrawn over time, forcing clubs to sell players to clubs who can afford to pay for them regardless of relegation. In the recent case of Crystal Palace when the Administrators sold their most valuable player, the FA dictated which other clubs were paid from the proceeds. When another Championship club faced a winding up petition from HMRC their zero tolerance attitude resulted in several football clubs, which were due payments, agreeing to defer payment in favour of HMRC as if the Club had gone out of existence there was no guarantee that parachute payments would be forthcoming. The football creditors therefore became subrogated behind HMRC.

    There are no easy solutions. However until the football authorities and HMRC cease hostilities and seek to fund a workable solution, then it is only a matter of time before a significant football club becomes extinct. This cannot be in the interests of the industry and will deprive HMRC of future income.


  42. scapaflow14 says:

    essexbeancounter says:

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:15

    I’m afraid the accountancy profession has some way to go to sort itself out. The piece below, is now nearly two years old, but, sadly things have gotten worse in the interim.

    ” During the House of Lords inquiry last November, the “Big Four” chiefs seemed to suggest they considered it perfectly acceptable to deceive investors by fudging “going concern” statements on behalf of banking clients”

    Not just banking clients, for how many years was the “going concern” concept fudged at Ibrox?

    http://www.ianfraser.org/accountancy-has-abandoned-its-primary-role-to-keep-capital-markets-honest-to-detriment-of-us-all/
    ======================================================================

    Scapa…I read Richard Murphy every day and agree with you 1,000,000%…I only wish more people would read and act on his findings.

    The accountancy “profession” has no real interest in sorting itself out…it has too much to lose by way of fee income.

    I banged on relentlessly on RTC about the failings of the so called “professionals” at the time, including my fellow members of ICAS and surpisingly, nothing changed…if anything, matters got worse.

    As the old Clydeside shop stewards would say after protracted and fruitless negotiations…”it is back to the status quo brothers…”


  43. chipm0nk says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:33
    2 0 Rate This

    The issue is closed for me I am off the belief that they are a new club. However, I don’t think it can be ignored that there are a plenty who disagree with this view. Now all the facts of the matter as far as I can see are very cloudy and murky. The SFA have allowed the malaise of the matter to fester to feed hope for the bottom feeder’s. Newspaper’s and phone in’s etc all disagree over the matter. The bottom line is no one has come out and said one way or the other, and I know what liquidation is, but it seem’s the SFA don’t have the same rulebook as everyone else is. So I don’t see what the problem is with the ASA telling the SFA how it is, more power to them I say. Let’s get this issue dealt with for the more they believe it the longer we will have to put up with the oldco Rangers mentality, something we could all do without i’m sure.


  44. oldcobrokemyheartbycheating says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:59

    There’s nothing either cloudy or murky about it, and something being said by the ASA is certainly not going to change anything.

    Newspapers, phone-ins and the like having people disagree is really neither here nor there either. Some things are a matter of opinion, who was the better player Larsson or Laudrup, McNeill or Greig, Pele or Maradonna. That is down to perception and opinion and everyone is perfectly entitled to one.

    Some things aren’t, though. Much as people would like us to believe it. Rangers was formed as a members club, that members club became a limited company. That was not a new company, or a new business, it simply changed it’s nature. That then became a PLC, again it was the same organisation and business. It simply changed it’s nature. That is being liquidated.

    The whole club and company thing is revisionist nonsense.

    It’s true now. There is a holding company called RIFC PLC, with RFC Ltd being a separate legal entity. The Ltd company could be sold by the PLC and still exist as a separate legal entity. It quite possibly will be. However that is not the way it was structured before.

    The ASA ruling will be irrelevant in that.


  45. “Murray Group Management (MGM) Ltd, provides management services to the companies of the Murray Group. It is one of 100 or so companies owned by Murray Group Holdings Ltd, which in turn is owned by Murray International Holdings Ltd, the Group’s ultimate holding company.

    One of the companies in the Group is Rangers Football Club Ltd. During the years in question it was loss-making for Corporation Tax purposes.”


  46. had to put bbc sportsound off – ma ears are bleedin’

    they’re saying that although there was stories about cva’s/liquidation/title stripping etc etc
    – it was all nowt to do with fitba…all business guff, so was boring, and there was no point
    “discussing” it in the papers[msm].

    they [msm] forgot what the offside rule was…

    now that scottish football is in it’s worst state in history, “everybody” really must think hard about the reality, of “demoting” one of the biggest clubs in the game.
    the game is on it’s knees and needs dragged back up.

    as it’s all about “opinions”
    this is my opinion;

    get rid of the old guard guidi,keevins,BfDJ,spiers,forsyth etc

    and for the life of me
    i cannot understand why – if 1 club has more debt than all the rest put together,
    then why is removing all that debt/club from the “game”, such a bad thing for the game?


  47. chipm0nk says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 16:15
    1 0 Rate This

    If the ASA ruling doesn’t help then due to the SFA the Ranger’s will continue that’s just the way I see it. Look at what’s gone on before they will bend over backward’s to help them. Can anyone produce a statement from SFA or UEFA that’s say’s there you go they are a new club? I suspect not as I’ve been willing one to come from the start, as I knew this would happen! It’s unjust and not right but without chasing the definitive answer, The SFA will do nothing and allow them to be as before. Do you not think this has begun already?


  48. oldcobrokemyheartbycheating says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 16:32

    The SFA are corrupt in favour of Rangers, old and new. That has been proven time after time.

    You and I both know it is a new club.

    Walter Smith Knows it is a new club.

    Charles green knows it is a new club

    Jim Traynor knows it is a new club.

    The ASA making a decision, either way, on complaints about a specific advertisement will not change anything.

    It’s a new club, no matter what propaganda they try to feed us.

    In a way it doesn’t really matter, as they have learned nothing from it and are not changing their business model to something actually sustainable. So, the hubris, arrogance and self-delusion is really only hurting rangers and their fans.


  49. chipm0nk says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 16:38
    0 0 Rate This

    Agreed. We also know come next admin, it wasn’t our fault it was Mr Green etc, but we’re Ranger’s men you can trust us! I wonder how that’l go.


  50. oldcobrokemyheartbycheating says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 16:44

    I still don’t see how there can be a “next admin”

    Unless it is the PLC which forces the Ltd Co into administration, for not paying debts to them.

    Which would make no sense.

    Who do the Ltd Company (the club) currently owe money to. It can only really be the PLC (holding company).

    If someone can explain the sequence of events which would lead to administration I would be interested to hear it.


  51. essexbeancounter says:

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 15:15
    ——————————————-

    Great to hear that others share my concerns …

    Treasure Island …. Highly Recommend to all ….

    And the website a worthwhile bookmark …. http://treasureislands.org/

    Not OT at all (as you pointed out) ….. It’s why i’m on sites like this …. via ….. Climate Change !!!!!

    Climate Change > Economics of CC > Shadow Economy > The Missing Billions > Tax Fraud > RFC …… !

    My own piece on this ….

    http://newtz.wordpress.com/economics-of-climate-change/the-shadow-economy-and-the-missing-billions/rangers-fc-and-climate-change-the-connection/


  52. chipm0nk says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 16:56
    0 0 Rate This

    Only going on what Phil Mac has been saying, and the money they are losing monthly if indeed those figure’s are accurate. But you are right I would reckon any future liabilities i would bet, would be met with Ranger’s men who surely must realise how silly they were letting the club slip to Green at such a generous price (insider trading?). I reckon come selling time the we won’t buy season tickets unless it’s a Walter Smith consortium will be played very hard. All conjecture but just how recent event’s add up to me. Thanks for the debate least we are in agreement, the SFA is not fit to govern.


  53. oldcobrokemyheartbycheating says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 17:07

    They are spending money, the PLC’s money.

    So that isn’t a problem, unless you are the PLC that is.

    It’s the administration thing that confuses me. Once they run out of money then they have to raise more just to keep going. In the normal course of events that would be borrowing, which if it wasn’t paid back could lead to administration. Fair enough. However who is going to lend them money, to creat debt, to not repay, to lead to administration. I just don’t understand that.

    When they run out of money they will need more. If they cannot borrow it then they will have to either sell assets, or simply cease to trade.

    Bottom line, a business can only really go into debt if someone is providing it with credit. If it can’t get that credit and pay it’s bills then it will simply be sold off, or wound up.

    Someone may be waiting about to buy it for a song. Whetrer it be the PLC, or the Ltd Co. I suspect the latter.


  54. Another Audio clip on its way?

    Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharlotteFakes 3m
    Audio almost ready, Charlie again turning the air blue, trip to uefa, buy someone a good drink (wink wink), over the heads of the sfa, etc


  55. Unsure if this is accurate –

    Mark Le Tissier – Managing Director at Trident Trust Company (Guernsey) Ltd.

    “All three of Matt Le Tissier’s brothers – Mark, Kevin and Carl – also played football, but never professionally. Mark is currently secretary of Guernsey FC.”


  56. Extract from Spiers’ interview with Donald Findlay
    ==========================================
    I found this extract to be breathtaking in its arrogance and ignorance – and coming from a QC no less.

    “(Findlay)…With Rangers sent down, what are we left with? We’re left with Rangers in the outer darkness for three years, and a one-team league in the SPL. What is the benefit of that to Scottish football?”

    But, surely, I argue, the matrix of right and wrong cannot come secondary to simply what is best in terms of cash-generation? “Why not?” he replies…”

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/findlay-has-his-own-style-but-was-seldom-in-vogue.21228304


  57. easyJambo says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 18:30

    0

    0

    Rate This

    Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharlotteFakes

    Nothing of any consequence on this audio I’m afraid.
    _________________________________________________

    apart from CGs intimation that Uefa officials could be bribed to overrule the SFA in RFCs favour?


  58. The SFA made deals with this man, and contrived with him. They tried to bully other people into him and his club getting their own way, and they were willing to break their own rules for him.

    They should be ashamed of themselves, the lot of them.


  59. chipm0nk says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 18:41

    The SFA made deals with this man, and contrived with him. They tried to bully other people into him and his club getting their own way, and they were willing to break their own rules for him.

    They should be ashamed of themselves, the lot of them.
    —————————-

    They won’t be, they had to deal with him to save the club, it’s still job done.

    Anything else will be ignored, nothing to see here, move along.


  60. easyJambo says:

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 18:30

    Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharlotteFakes
    Here’s Charlie sharing his views on uefa and the sfa. Drinks all round. https://soundcloud.com/charlotteandthefakes/cg4 … #ParentalGuidanceRequired

    Nothing of any consequence on this audio I’m afraid
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Are you sure EJ. For me I realised that we seem to be hearing just different parts of the same conversation, which does make me wonder why, if we are going to hear it, why can we just not hear the whole thing and make our own minds up.

    But beyond that. The thing that kind of hits me now, is that these two are WELL acquainted with each other – CG is relaxed to the point of being a total blowhard. Did he not say that they had met just the one or two times in the setting of a formal meeting.


  61. achillesacronym says: Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 18:57
    ————————————-
    Let’s say that there is nothing new to learn from this recording.

    Green is acquainted with Whyte
    Green is a blowhard
    Green doesn’t like the SFA
    Green swears a lot

    There is nothing in the audio that is going to influence any of the key parties in this saga to do anything different.


  62. chipm0nk says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 16:56
    5 3 i
    Rate This

    oldcobrokemyheartbycheating says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 16:44

    I still don’t see how there can be a “next admin”

    Unless it is the PLC which forces the Ltd Co into administration, for not paying debts to them.

    Which would make no sense.

    Who do the Ltd Company (the club) currently owe money to. It can only really be the PLC (holding company).

    If someone can explain the sequence of events which would lead to administration I would be interested to hear it.

    ==================
    Chipmonk. What would happen when/if they simply run out of money? What avenues are open?


  63. barcabhoy says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 18:09

    On Gordon Smith……
    ————————————-
    I’d be more than happy if we’ve seen the back of him as far as punditry is concerned, and I don’t doubt there are very many more people whose financial difficulties are much more worthy of our concern. But as far as this forum goes, his bankruptcy is peripheral to Scottish football (other than perhaps as some kind of metaphor for his club), and I still therefore am heartened that posters haven’t gone in for the aggressive gloating at someone’s personal predicament that can be seen at various times on other forums.


  64. In Southampton today. Beautiful weather. EDL demo. Reminded me of Glasgow mid July but without the football colours.
    Just bought a green and white polo shirt and feeling relaxed about it as that kind of thing doesn’t brand you like in the west of Scotland. Nobody gives a damn or thinks Scotland has a diddy part time league.
    Love it, miss it and hate it.
    I think I’m suffering from TSFM addiction.
    I need my fix everyday but I’m starting to feel fatigued by the Great War that is Scottish football. It’s stalemate in the trenches and there never was a nuclear option.


  65. barcabhoy says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 18:09

    I have sympathy for anyone who loses everything if they operated within the law, worked hard but through circumstances beyond control, be it the current economy or whatever lose everything. As we know lots of spivs whilst declared bankrupt rarely lose everything if they are clever.


  66. Apologies if this has already been posted.
    On the train back to Berkshire.
    Agree with you haddock but rotten time of year to pickup any extra media work for the perma tanned and raven haired ex CEO.


  67. easyJambo says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 19:20

    There is nothing in the audio that is going to influence any of the key parties in this saga to do anything different.
    ————————————————————————————————————

    I would agree with that – so why has she released it? Is this another case where it is a warning regarding the content of another part of that conversation prior or after the recorded section CF has released. Is this just another warning shot across the bows to increase pressure without actually revealing the content to third parties such as ourselves?

    It’s a bit like the 5-way agreement threat which I can only conclude is aimed at the SFA and is effectively warning them IMO that if they ‘swallow’ the Rangers reporting of the P&M ‘conclusion’ without questioning it then they will pay a price?

    Personally now that Smith is King of the Castle, even temporarily, I don’t think these tactics would work as the SFA and Rangers know that the stakes are now too high that if they don’t hang together then they will surely hang separately. The removal of the Green ‘wild card’ element means that even unspoken agreements will now be observed, no matter what, to maintain the Establishment line.


  68. I agree EJ. We knew all this, sort of. But is there a point at which we might wonder if all that is happening just now was also part of a convo between CG & CW. Is it only just the Sevco support, SFA/SFL/SPL/MSM/UEFA/FIFA/ECA/SFO ( any missing?) that are the mugs here?

    Of course, I also believe that nothing will affect the outcome here. Sevco will line up for the new season, new star signings in place, CO brisling with pride, Sir Dignity of Polyester in the hot-seat, the history ever more historic, the swarm in ecstacy, Mr Traynor in a job!


  69. Who says they don’t know about this fiasco in Engand? Question on ‘In it to win it’ two minutes ago about a former SPL Scottish team in Third division and a wee English lassie got it right!!!! The Rangers!


  70. easyJambo says:
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 19:20

    2

    3

    Rate This

    achillesacronym says: Saturday, June 1, 2013 at 18:57

    _________________________________________

    I think it depends who this ‘angelos’ is that Charlie is referring to, whether he (a) exists and (b)really did have a call with Mr Green that morning (remember this was purportedly before Charles’ sevco had acquired RFC assets or even secured preferred bidder status).

    I can find no reference to an Angelos (sound like) Tavlos? on Uefa website.

    Is Green shooting Whyte a line?
    And if so… Why? Surely CW would be able to check up on the name dropping and discover it easily?

    Or is Angelos real, and Green is basically basically bragging that he can use Uefa clout to get through any difficulties or sanctions the SFA present? In which case, the relationship between Green and Uefa at that point deserves some serious scrutiny!

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