A Blog by James Forrest for TSFM
I am a socialist, and as a socialist I believe in the fundamental goodness of people. Some people find that hard to believe when they read the stuff I write.
I published my first novel recently, on politics and the corrupting nature of it, and it is a deeply cynical book, a book where no-one has clean hands come the end. What has surprised some of those who’ve read it is that I didn’t focus on the lies and smears of the right, but the hypocrisy and deceit of those who claim to be of the left.
Corruption, you see, doesn’t respect political boundaries or points of view. It’s like rainwater. It finds every crack, and gets in there.
My political beliefs revolve around two apparently paradoxical elements; the belief in the inherent decency of people and the need for a strong, and powerful, state. I believe the second underpins the first, and this brings me into conflict with a lot of people, some on the left and some on the right. Too many people see the state as inherently evil, as something that interferes too much in the lives of ordinary people. As something suffocating.
Yet the state exists to protect us. It exists to provide a safety net. It exists to regulate and to oversee. If the state is made up of bad people, if the gears of society are captured by those with malicious or selfish intent, the results are obvious; war, corruption, chaos.
The vast majority of our problems in the modern age can be neatly summed up in two lines from Yeats’ poem “The Second Coming”, which I used to open my novel. “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
We live in a time when those who are protecting their own interests have assumed such power that they’ve cowed the rest of us. They have become a law unto themselves. They have changed the nature of the game, because they have sapped our will to the extent some barely put up a fight anymore. The weak get weaker, and the strong use their strength to crush the rest even more. It is a vicious struggle, a downward spiral.
Society is held together not only by the endeavour and common interests of its citizens but by a collection of laws. We elect the people who make those laws. They do so in our name, and we can remove that right every four years. That is a powerful thing, and we do not appreciate it enough. The present corruption exists because we allow it to exist.
The people around me continue to puzzle over my uncommon interest in the affairs of a football club on the west of Glasgow. My own club plays in the east end. I tell those who ask that my primary interest in the goings-on at the club calling itself Rangers is no longer about football; how could it be, after all? With promotion this year they are still a full two divisions below us, emasculated, skint, weak and unstable. If we were fortunate enough to draw them in cup competition the match would be over, as a tie, by the halfway point … in the first half.
In footballing terms they are an utter irrelevance.
Rangers is more than a football club to me. They are a symbol. Their unfolding calamity is an on-going outrage. What is happening there, what is being allowed to happen, is an offense to decency. It is a stain on the face of our country.
In short, it is a scandal. It is a scandal without parallel in sport.
Yet it’s not just a sports story either. If it was, I might not be so focussed on it. What is happening at Rangers is a colossal failure of governance. It is a damning indictment against the very people who are supposed to oversee our game. It is a disgraceful abrogation of responsibility from those at the top, those who claim to be “running things.”
If this is not a failure of governance it is a result of corruption at the heart of our national sport. It says they are bought and paid for, and I will say no such thing here.
So let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ll say instead that what they are is weak, indecisive, inept and disconnected from reality.
It reminds me of our political class, which has become insular and ignorant about what the public wants, and what it needs. It’s not a wonder parties like UKIP can achieve national vote shares of 25% at local elections. Nigel Farage strikes me as a dog-whistle politician, the kind who knows how to appeal to a select group of voters. He is little different to Charles Green, the man who beguiled Rangers fans into handing over large amounts of money, because he was “standing up for the club.” It is easy to do what he did, easy to do what Farage is doing.
Real leadership requires toughness. Say what you like about the Tories, but they have that in spades. Yeats was right about the worst being full of passionate intensity. Green was. Farage is. Cameron and Osborne personify it in their political outlook.
It is easy to be cowed by blunt force politics, and by “tough talking Yorkshire men” and venomous speeches about “strivers and skivers.” The politics of divide and conquer is the oldest form of politics there is, and it’s no surprise to see it practiced by some of the vested interests in the game here in Scotland. Yet, lest we forget … something significant happened last year. The maligned and the ignored, the weak and the voiceless found something they never realised they had. They discovered that, in a very real sense, the power was in their hands.
Last year, the fans rose up when the governing bodies and the media went all-out to save Rangers from the self-inflicted wounds caused by a decade of cheating, malpractice and ineptitude. I have no problem calling that what it was.
What happened at Rangers seemed incredible, but it was all too predictable, and some of us had been talking about it for years before it hit. The Association seemed caught in the headlights but it would amaze me if they really were as insular and ignorant as they appeared. They must have known how bad the outlook was for Rangers. They just chose to ignore it.
They were aided and abetted by a thoroughly disreputable media, a collection of cowards and compromisers, charlatans and frauds, masquerading as journalists, but who long ago laid aside any claim to be bold investigators and settled for commenting on events as they unfolded. More often than not, with their ill-informed opinions, sometimes due to weaknesses in intellect and others wilfully ignorant, they failed even in that.
Entire newspapers became PR machines for crooks and swindlers. They aided in the scam because they didn’t do their jobs, some because they were lazy, some because they were incompetent and others because they wanted a seat at the table and were willing to sacrifice whatever integrity they once had in exchange for one.
That all of this was embraced by the Rangers fans is amazing to me. They trusted when they should have been asking questions. They closed their eyes, covered their ears and sang their battle tunes at the top of their voices so they wouldn’t have to hear anything they didn’t like. As incredible as I found it then, and still find it now – and now, even more so, when they have already seen the results of it once – I find it pathetic too, and I do feel pity for some of them.
A lot of these people are genuine football fans, and nothing more. They have no interest in the phony narrow nationalism, or the over-blown religion, or the notion of supremacy which manifested itself in a ludicrous statement from McCoist when interviewed recently on Sky.
Some of the Rangers fans look at their team of duds, kids and journeymen, they look at a boardroom of cowards and crooks, they look at a failing manager in his first (and last) job in the game and at a dark future and are not in the least bit impressed by, or interested in, the chest-out arrogance espoused in those ridiculous words “we are the people.” They know full well that their present crisis was made by men like McCoist, and they understand that pretentious posturing is not an act born of strength, but a scrambling around in the gutter, and a symptom of weakness.
They understand their position, and they hate it. And because they care about Rangers, because they value the club, because they cherish those things that made it a great Scottish institution, they want that back. They understand that before the Union Jack waving, Sash singing, poppy wearing, Nazi saluting, Orange element became the public face of their support Rangers meant something else, and that, above all things, is what pains them the most.
People do not hate Rangers. When the country appeared to turn its back last year, they were turning the back on favouritism and the bending of rules. Yet it would be a lie to say that there is not an element of dislike in the gleeful mockery of many rival fans.
But they don’t hate Rangers either. They hate the version of it around which a certain section of the support continues to dance. They hate the version which hates, and so too do many, many, many Rangers supporters, and they definitely deserve better.
David Murray chose not to openly challenge that version. Indeed, he encouraged certain strands of it to flourish and grow, with his “Britishness Days” and his effort to turn the club into the “team that supports the troops.” Other clubs have done as much, if not more, for the British Army than the one that plays out of Ibrox. Other clubs have given more money. Other clubs have lent their support to those on the front lines. They just chose to do it with respect, and with class, and with dignity. They chose to do it in private, understanding that there eventually comes a tipping point between looking after the ends of the soldiers and using them to promote your own.
The army has not battened on to Rangers. Rangers has battened on to them, and although it is unclear when an altruistic motive became darker, what started out as a gesture of solidarity is now used to entrench division and promote a notion of superiority.
Craig Whyte took over from Murray and immediately understood the lure of the “dog whistle.” He knew too that the media would accept whatever he told them, without question, and as he spoke up for “Rangers traditions” he made sure the lunatic fringe was well onside. He met face to face with the hard-core extremists in the support first and made them his praetorian guard. They spoke up for him until the day the club entered administration.
So, whereas Murray pandered to them and Whyte used them to further his own ends, it was only a matter of time before someone suggested to Charles Green that he could use the same tactics to win over the support. He went even further and blatantly promoted and encouraged this mind-set, and stoked the hate and nonsense to frightening new heights. The same people who cheered Whyte to the rafters jumped on board the Big Blue Bus and the results are clear.
Through all of it, the ordinary Rangers fan has seen his club buffered against the rocks, battered, broken, smashed to smithereens and sunk. Now there’s a big hole in the side of the lifeboat, and they are terrified that further tragedies await.
They are right to be concerned. Much of the media is still not telling them what they need to know. The people in charge of their club – the owners who have lied, the former hack who covered up the truth about Whyte and now acts as a mouthpiece for Green, the “club legends” who are content to sup with the devil and take his greasy coin when they should be standing toe-to-toe with the fans – are trying to silence those members of the press who do have facts to present.
How many times now have media outlets been banned from Ibrox for daring to report the truth? The manager who demanded the names of a committee last year defends those inside the walls who are desperate to keep secret the things that are going on. He is either an unprincipled coward, or he is, himself, bought and paid for. The fans suffer for it.
The “inconvenient truth” is still being kept from them, and this denies them any chance to play an active role in their club. Indeed, it is all too possible that they’ve passed a point of no return, and that their club is heading for a new liquidation event and it can no longer be stopped.
In either case, their power has been eroded to the point at which they must feel they have nothing left to do but stand back and watch what happens next.
They are wrong. I am a socialist. I believe in the inherent good of people. I think the ordinary decent Rangers fans are the only people left who can save their club … and the means by which they will do it is as simple as it could be.
They must stand up for “big government.” They must embrace the need for a “strong state.” They must lobby the SFA, and they must trust the SFA and they must get the SFA to follow its own rules and thereby save them from any further harm.
There is a tendency amongst some Celtic fans to see our governing bodies as pro-Rangers. If it is true then those running our game are ruining Scottish football without benefiting the thing they love more. The incalculable harm that has been done to Rangers in the last 20 some months is a direct result of the subservient media and the willingness of the football authorities to be “deaf, dumb and blind.” Those who believe this has actually helped the Ibrox club have not been paying attention in class. It has irrevocably scarred them, and it may yet have played a hand in destroying them once and for all, as a force if not as a club entirely.
For years, the SFA sat and did nothing as a club in their association operated a sectarian signing policy. They did nothing whilst the fans sang sectarian songs. In their failure to act they strengthened those elements of the Rangers support, instead of isolating, alienating and eventually helping to eliminate those who saw that club as a totem pole of division and hate. Their failure over EBT’s, and their lack of scrutiny, led to one of the greatest scandals in the history of sport, and I say that with no equivocation at all. The testimony of their registrations officer in the Lord Nimmo Smith investigation was a disgrace and in years to come it will rank as one of the most disreputable and damaging moments in the association’s history.
The most egregious failures of all were the failures in the so-called “fit and proper person” tests, which allowed first Whyte and then Charles Green to assume controlling positions at Ibrox. They will pass the buck and say the responsibility lies with the club itself, in much the same way as they are content to let the club investigate itself at the present time, but any neutral who looks at this stance knows it is unprincipled and spineless. It’s like letting the defence set the terms at a trial. It is foxes investigating the chicken coop.
It is a blueprint for corruption, and a recipe for disaster.
It is now too late for the SFA to declare Green “unfit”, as it was too late when they finally slapped that title on Craig Whyte. He and his allies own Rangers, and they control its destiny. They can push the club to the wall if they choose, in the final extremity, if that gets them what they want. The time for changing that is past. The damage has already been done. The barbarians are not at the gates. They are inside the walls, and sacking the city.
The SFA will be forced to punish Rangers for the sins of the owners, for the second time in as many years, and whilst it is right that the club face up to that, all the better to send a message to other clubs and other owners, the SFA cannot be allowed to slither off the hook here as though this was none of their doing. Green will skip off into the sunset. Craig Whyte has yet to pay his fine. These people never cared about Scottish football and they don’t care now.
The SFA are supposed to. Our governing body is supposed to govern, for the good of the whole game, and not as a support system for a single club. What they have allowed to happen on their watch is absolutely shameful and if the people responsible were men at all, with any sense of accountability, they would resign en masse.
They can pretend ignorance, but only the truly ignorant would accept that. Craig Whyte was not inside Ibrox a week before RTC and other sites were dismantling his entire business history, with some of the people here doing the work the SFA would not. Whyte himself claims to have made the governing bodies aware of the scale of what was facing the club, and they did nothing at all. Heads should have rolled a year ago.
In October of last year, on this very site, I posted an article in which I wrote:
“Which isn’t to say the due diligence matter isn’t worrying, because, of course, it is. Again, no-one is going to convince me that the SFA has conducted proper due diligence on Charles Green and his backers. No-one will convince me they are satisfied that this club is in safe hands, and that the game in this country will not be rocked by a further implosion at Ibrox. They failed to properly investigate Craig Whyte, because of lax regulations requiring disclosure from the club itself, regulations which are just a joke, but they can be forgiven for that as the press was talking sheer nonsense about him having billions at his disposal, and a lot of people (but not everyone!) were either convinced or wanted to be convinced by him.
To have witnessed what Whyte did, to have witnessed the Duff & Phelps “process” of finding a buyer, and having Green essentially emerge from nowhere, with a hundred unanswered questions as to his background and financing, for the SFA to have given this guy the go ahead, only for it to blow up in their faces later, would annihilate the credibility of the governing body and necessitate resignations at every level. There would be no hiding place.”
There are times when it is fun to be right, but this is not one of them. It is dispiriting and disquieting to have been so on the nose. It scares the Hell out of me, as someone who loves football in this country, to have seen this matter clearly when the people running our game apparently either did not or chose to ignore very real, very obvious, concerns. The Internet Bampots had no special insight or access to information that was denied those at the SFA. We just weren’t prepared to ignore it and pretend that it wasn’t there. There was too much at stake.
I have become convinced that things will never change until the Rangers supporters join us in demanding the full and unabridged truth here. They need to come out from under the bed, and confront their fears. They need to be willing to take the consequences, so that their club can emerge clean from this, and start again, with all this behind them.
And it can all happen with one simple thing. The application of the rules.
The existence of laws comes down to a simple principle; they protect society from those elements within it who are interested only in their own selfish ends. We may cry out at those rules and regulations we see as “restrictive”, but the law was not made to restrict our freedoms but to protect them. Had the SFA years ago acted against Rangers sectarian signing policy, and the songs from the stands, the club would not have mutated to the point where there was no help on hand when they needed it the most. Let’s not kid ourselves about this; Whyte and Green were only able to grab control because the club itself has a dreadful image which put off respectable and responsible buyers. The SFA could have helped change that perception years ago and did nothing.
The SFA could have conducted its own investigation into who Craig Whyte was. They could have asked David Murray for full disclosure when he was running up £80 million of debt, a sum of money that is beyond belief for a single club in a small provincial backwater league. Had they had the guts to do that the club would never have spent itself into oblivion and forced the hand of Lloyds, which led indirectly to their ignominious end.
The SFA could have fully investigated Charles Green and the means by which he took control, instead of rushing through a license. His emergence at the last minute was transparently suspicious and designed to force them into a quick decision, but they did not have to bow to that pressure by making one, without being in possession of the facts, as it is now 100% clear they were not.
Had they asked for every document, had they insisted on legal affidavits and personal securities from investors (and this would have been perfectly legitimate and is common place in other licensing areas) none of this would have come to pass. After Craig Whyte they had a moral responsibility to the rest of the game to get this one right and their failure is without parallel in the history of Scottish football.
As the club hurtles towards a new abyss, names are cropping up which should send a shudder down the spines of every honest, genuine supporter of not only Rangers but every team in the land. The SFA claims that a strong Rangers is essential for the sake of Scottish football, but they have been extraordinarily lax in protecting that club, and therefore the game, from destructive elements. Craig Whyte and Charles Green had dubious personal histories, and the acquisition of the club itself was mired in controversy and scandal. Yet it was allowed.
Neither Green nor Whyte were known to have operated outside the law, yet neither was worthy of trust or stood up to scrutiny. Neither man should ever have been granted the status as fit and proper persons to assume a role in our national sport, and if it is true of them what can we say about the three men who are, presently, being touted as the Great White Hopes for a bright, new Rangers future; Dave King and the Easdale brothers?
King recently cut a deal with the South African government over an on-going dispute over taxes. In other words, he pled guilty and accepted the central plank of their argument; that for years he was engaged in wilfully with-holding vast revenues from their Treasury. The media does not like to put it like that, and the SFA seems willing to ignore it utterly, and this would be scandalous enough. But it does not stop there. HRMC rules – as well as the SFA’s own governance documents – actually bar him from serving on the board of the new club.
Last but not least, aside from being an admitted tax cheat, King is also awaiting trial in South Africa, having been indicted for corruption, forgery and fraud – 300 charges in total. Yet as recently as last week, we were told that the Association was willing to look at him and consider representations from his lawyers. This is almost beyond belief.
If Dave King’s position is untenable, and he is yet to be convicted of a crime, what can we say about the position of the Easdale’s? One of the two brothers, Sandy, has already served jail time. He is a convicted criminal, a fraudster nonetheless, who’s “victim” was the same Treasury who are appealing one case involving the old club and liquidated it entirely over another. This is precisely the kind of “businessman” the fit and proper person test was supposed to weed out, and if the SFA holds its nose here the reek will stink out the halls at Hampden for decades. If King or the Easdale’s are judged fit and proper, then who exactly is the test for? What exactly do you have to do to fail it? How do we explain the existence of laws, when these are not applied?
Pascal says “Law without force is impotent.” The SFA’s weakness has allowed one version of Rangers to destroy itself, and has allowed an existential risk to another. If the next power at Rangers resides in South Africa or Greenock I can say with some certainty that the Association is engaged in an even more dangerous roll of the dice, because the surfacing of fresh scandal will be an ever present risk, and will be of the sort no-one will survive.
The damage to Scottish football will take years to heal. The Scottish game has been through enough trauma. It does not need more. It barely survived the last calamity to hit Rangers. The rest of us should not be forced to pay the price of the next one.
The greater damage will be done to Rangers itself. If the Green crisis ends in another collapse – as it well might; another administration event is a certainty, and another liquidation is a much more likely prospect than it was before 14 February 2012 – the club will once again have to start from the bottom, and this time the reputational damage will be impossible to repair. The club faces internal strife, sporting sanctions, and criminal investigations. The last takeover might be declared a fraud. the Whyte takeover will almost certainly be. The share issue might be invalid, as well as criminal, and the people involved may well end up in jail. Lawsuits could follow from investors, there could be as yet unknown consequences from the Upper Tier Tax Tribunal (thank you Brogan Rogan for pointing out what those might be) and a host of other issues.
Rangers fans must be the loudest voices here. How do you want the world to view your club in years to come? Do you want one to be proud of, or one forever associated with the shame and disgrace of these days gone by? The one which bailed out on its tax obligations. The one with supporters who disgrace your very name. The one which allowed Whyte and Green to take you to the cleaners and send you to the wall. The one which handed over control to one convicted criminal and another awaiting trial. Do you want to be reborn clean, or mired in the muck?
David Murray destroyed your financial stability. He made it so no bank would issue you a line of credit and no investor of note wanted to buy. Craig Whyte liquidated you. Charles Green has cast the future of the Newco into doubt and acted in a manner which has annihilated your credibility with the financial markets for decades to come.
Between these three men, they have taken everything from you, and the press and the people who run the game here, as well as some of your own blindly ignorant fans, have allowed them to do all this and more. Now they conspire to hand the keys to Ibrox to other men of questionable character, who will wreck further havoc on the reputation of the club.
The Scottish Football Association has damaged the game it was supposed to protect, but above all else their greatest failure of governance was a failure to protect one of its biggest clubs from its own excesses and those of its owners.
Rangers fans, the SFA have betrayed your trust, more than the trust of any other club. What you must insist on now is full disclosure and transparency from the powers that be in Hampden. The SFA has to end the charade of allowing your club to handle this in-house. They must hand everything over to an outside agency – whether a legal one, or a footballing body like UEFA – and they must demand co-operation and answers, and threaten to withhold the license if they don’t get them.
You must not be afraid of that. You must embrace it. The men with their hands on the gears at Ibrox are motivated by money, and nothing more. If the license is withdrawn their “investments” are worthless. They cannot risk that.
You must demand that the rules on fit and proper persons are applied, and where necessary even made stronger, to prevent your club falling into unclean hands. You must demand that they protect your reputation from further damage, by getting this all out there and acting accordingly, even if that means your club does not play football for at least a year.
You must be willing to suck it all up, knowing that what will emerge is a Rangers which has been cleansed and moves forward with honour, and dignity, led by custodians who treasure it rather than those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
The Rangers Standard has recently emerged as a genuine voice for those in your support who are sick and tired of what Rangers has become, and want it restored to something that is worthy of the love and respect in which you hold it. On that website, there are discussions about the kind of club you seek to be and about whether the institution of Rangers is about more than just football.
If that’s how you feel about it then you know it is about more than how many titles the club can claim, about more than just results on the park, about more than just the game. Rangers, like Celtic, is an idea. It has to be something you are proud of.
I am a socialist, but one with a fevered imagination and a tendency to write very dark things. This piece won’t have been good reading for some of you (perhaps all of you haha!) but I think there’s more hope in here than in other things I’ve written.
In spite of everything that’s come to pass, I still believe. I believe in Scottish football. I believe in our system of football governance, even if those who are working in it are failing on some level.
In society, as much as we strain against them, laws exist for our protection. To fail to enforce them is to leave us at the mercy of those elements who would do us harm. The rules of football ensure the protection of all clubs, not just a few.
The failure to enforce the rules has never had graver consequences than here in Scotland. The irony is that bending and breaking them has hurt the one club those violations were designed to help. It cannot be allowed to happen again.
The rules must be applied without fear or favour.
The best must find their conviction, and their passionate intensity once more.
James is a co-editor of the On Fields of Green Blog http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/
Well look on the bright side.
With Campbell Ogilvie’s track record of administration it is only a matter of time before the SFA ends up in administration or backruptcy.
Have said that he will either change either his own name while claiming his own history or change the name of the SFA to ‘The The SFA’.
What a sad state of affairs and it speaks volumes for all club chairmen that there was not even another candidate publicly put forward.
If a bigger indictment was needed today then it was the failed attempt to pass a piece of legislation for racist or sectarian songs. Whatever happened to the all encompassing ‘bringing the game into disrepute’ charge?
The fact that they do not even enforce this law says all you need to know really.
scapaflow14 says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:00 pm
I have never read the minutes of any meeting of either body, so I have absolutely no idea what either man said at them.
Neither have I any idea what anyone else sitting on those bodies has said.
However I do have a reasonable idea what Whyte, Green, Ahmad etc have done. I have listened to tapes, read documents, and watched what was going on. I am entirely convinced that they are liars, cheats, fraudsters ans spivs.
To describe Peter Lawwell and Eric Riley’s behaviour as “every bit as despicable” is totally unjustified in my view.
However, like I said, you are entirely entitled to your opinion, I just disagree with it.
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:54 pm
======================
Thanks for that.
I do think that with the season ticket prices being frozen and no sign of substantial sponsorship, stadium renaming, or European income, it would appear to be just as untenable a business as the previous one.
Unless of course they continue to cut the wage bill fairly dramatically.
Gaz says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:12 pm
Fair enough!
neepheid says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:54 pm
Celtic will not be playing in the junior leagues any time soon, the stench of corruption and bigotry will be around the SFA until the end of time, and the only fun avaiable to the directors, managers , players and supporters iof the Celts is to win trophies , keep stum and watch the master race from Govan slowly implode again.
what is not to like? Still if you cannot enjoy football now then Blantyre Celtic will welcome your cash.
martybhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:59 pm
‘..@john Clarke………no more onus on the main mouthpiece of a football club and it’s fans…..CHEATED out of CL income and football matches by a corrupt organisation?
—-
martybhoy, you are kind of demonstrating my thesis!
Peter Lawwell would have got slated if he had spoken out like that.
The time for that will come when the EVIDENCE for such beliefs comes to hand in a way that not even a Beltrami or sash-singing QC could get round.
And, as I say, every other club, including non-league clubs, was in some way cheated, some in ways that were proportionately more damaging .They would have even more reason to complain about cheating.
There is no way that I personally can accept any attempt to make Celtic part of the villainy.
The damage, the whole damage, has been done by one be(k)nighted club, and by the unwillingness of certain officers in the SFA and elsewhere to take all appropriate and just action.
Can’t stop laughing @corsica1968 58s
Remember folks: as of latest RCF accounts, they had not even been paid their 10% by RFC (IA). #rangerscharitytheft
Expand
Can’t stop laughing Can’t stop laughing @corsica1968 2m
BTW @RFC_Official @rfc_dickson @Chris_Graham67, I’ve got all the figures. £178,637 in costs including £40k for “player travel”.
Brian McHugh (@pbmchugh) says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:05 pm
1 1 Rate This
DuffAndPhelps6June2012Part08
A few of the lads chewing the fat round the table… (Whyte, Mr A and Mr B)
Mr A What about Alistair is he still there?
Whyte: I’ve never heard from Alistair. Have you heard from him?
Mr A: No
Whyte: He’s a Lunatic…
Mr B: He IS a Lunatic! I don’t know what makes him tick …didn’t he used to… didn’t he get Bill Miller?…he had some sort of involvement in getting Bill Miller and then he went to the media and said oh Bill Miller’s a lunatic and gave all this negative press. And I was thinking why don’t you just stay out of it…
(Someone yawns)
Whyte: I don’t know what he was trying to achieve at all.
Mr A: It was funny when we were up with you that day..
Whyte: (laughs) He was trying to get twenty grand on the day we went into administration (laughs)
He is totally out of his depth of the whole thing …Totally
————————————–
What Alistair can they mean? …surely not….Mr. J
———–
Brian, I heard that as Ellis.
Btw, suprised that Charlotte is enaging with some of the non-thinking, angry mob on twitter.
Gaz says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:16 pm
1
1
Rate This
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:54 pm
======================
Thanks for that.
I do think that with the season ticket prices being frozen and no sign of substantial sponsorship, stadium renaming, or European income, it would appear to be just as untenable a business as the previous one.
Unless of course they continue to cut the wage bill fairly dramatically.
________________________________
Agreed.
Cutting costs massively. Cash injection from somewhere (selling players) or obatining a credit line from somewhere (or a combination of these) are the only way to secure any future.
I never knew that Smith was on £1.7 million as manager – according to Whyte – I suppose that makes McCoists’ £700K look like a bargain.
ecobhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:31 pm
0 0 Rate This
I never knew that Smith was on £1.7 million as manager – according to Whyte – I suppose that makes McCoists’ £700K look like a bargain.
__________
do you not mean McCoists 700k makes smiths look like a bargain
as CW said on tape he got them into the CL 3 years running
sally got them papped out all cups first go 🙂
Regarding the re-election of C.O.
It was inevitable.
Mr Regan has maintained all along that C.Os’ position was not compromised by events at Edmiston drive and that view has largely been adopted by the SFA members, associate or otherwise. I do not recall reading or hearing a contradictory statement from any member club regarding C.O. (I drink a lot of wine right enough, so maybe I missed something).
In my view, Celtic have been wise to keep their wheesht on this matter and should continue to do so. No point in arming the MSM and it is no more Celtics’ place to comment than it is Alloas’, Q.Ps’, or East Fifes’. All members of the SFA have equal rights to an opinion.
Well, all except one.
CO is an irrelevance anyway. The circus surrounding the SFA, SPL and Sevco Rangers will play out regardless. They do not control the agenda nowadays. We do.
i like the bold craigs comment after the 1.7m they are all rangers men but never put their hands in their pockets to help
ecobhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:31 pm
1 0 Rate This
I never knew that Smith was on £1.7 million as manager – according to Whyte – I suppose that makes McCoists’ £700K look like a bargain.
———
Incredible. A financial buffet, with a free bar serving EBTs! A lot of people got very rich before it was sold as a basket case for a quid to Whyte. You can understand why he goes on about his media image on these recordings … he came along at just the wrong time.
Brian McHugh (@pbmchugh) says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:05 pm
“What Alistair can they mean? …surely not….Mr. J”
—————–
I made a note on that Brian. I heard it as ‘Ellis’ not Alastair. Audio 8 at 3:30.
I’m interested in Ellis so it caught my ear. Have another listen and see if it sounds the same.
Andy says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:33 pm
0
1
Rate This
ecobhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:31 pm
0 0 Rate This
I never knew that Smith was on £1.7 million as manager – according to Whyte – I suppose that makes McCoists’ £700K look like a bargain.
__________
do you not mean McCoists 700k makes smiths look like a bargain
as CW said on tape he got them into the CL 3 years running
sally got them papped out all cups first go 🙂
______________________________________________________
Did they suggest that Lennon is only on £300K?
To think I thought Butcher was underpaid on ~£80k!
Action … Houston we have lift off !!!
I appreciate that everyone is getting excited about the CF revelations but let’s face it, are we surprised?
Now it may be the case that provenance is uncertain regarding some of the information. However despite the protestations of Tom English and others the sheer volume of material from various sources, combined with possible legal gagging issues tends to suggest there is far more than a grain of truth in what is being put out to the wider world.
Dress it up in any way you want but the average fan on the terracing now has their suspicions confirmed that ‘those and such as those’ were all working in one way or another to ensure that ‘The Establishment Club’ survived.
We know from the MSM and those inside the game, current and ex managers and players along with the majority of pundits, have also most to a man have supported not only the survival of T’Rangers but that they should be in the top division and they voiced that whenever possible. Many a chairman was probably of the same view but it was only fan power that stopped then allowing Sevco into the SPL or Div 1
Only a few outside the cabal – Phil Mac, Daly, Thomson have offered an alternative story and even then Daly and Thomson are more interested in the corporate governance and tax avoidance issues than football matters.
Nobody sitting within Scottish borders has dared take a hatchet to the forest of thorns surrounding both Ibrox and the national stadium. English and Spiers, to an extent, have voiced their concerns but where a chain saw is required they have produced nothing more than a key ring sized souvenir penknife. Attractive to look at but insignificant, blunt and not fit for purpose.
We also know that the football authorities have wanted to see ‘the club’ survive. I personally have no problem with that. After all it should be their job to try and ensure that their ‘member clubs’ flourish and gain entry into as many competitions as possible.
However for God’s sake just tell us how it is. The rules were never applied without ‘fear or favour’ and everything was done and every loophole explored and exploited to ensure both the oldco and newco took to the field.
Just let the ‘highly conflicted’ re-elected President stand on the steps of Hampden and tell us that is how it is but at the same time tell the rest of us not to worry because the exact same time and effort will be put in to save any other club who find themselves in a similar predicament.
Fans of other clubs have always felt the whole show has been rigged for ages, so just confirm that this is how business was done and let them decide on whether or not to turn up week after week.
Dare I even suggest that what is required now is ‘Transparency’ from all, as opposed to weasel words and hiding behind legal niceties otherwise this will rumble on for years to come.
Frankly, what harm can it do because unless there is openness, honesty and change, people are already walking away from both newspapers and the game alike.
The thing I like about this blog is that I can read two diametrically opposed opionions and agree with both.
I’m only halfway through the most recent tapes, but one thing is clear, thus far, D&P were not aware of Whyte being involved as a backer in the CVA or the asset sale. That is quite important when considering whether or not D&P were party to the change from Sevco 5088 or Sevco Scotland, or if it was a simple case of Ahmad and Green misleading or duping them.
test
John Clarke says,
Always respect your posts John, but re CO, noone had to give a full justification of why he had to go, all that was needed was for an alternative candidate to be put forward or a vote of no confidence, or for a majority to vote against his re-appointment, whatever was allowed for in the constitution, and whatever strategy enough dissatisfied clubs could cobble together.
That none of this happened is a disgrace in my view, and I emailed my club in those terms prior to the AGM (no reply or acknowledgement of course, thanks for nothing AFC). Can all the chairment really believe this farce can carry on indefinitely?
I can only hope that as someone wrote, maybe there’s a long game being played here to give them enough rope or by letting them fail, but I fear this is not the case.
neepheid says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:11 pm
“I do not think it is unreasonable for me to ask to know where they stand on this issue, which is important to me, although apparently not to you. ..”
—–
Not sure where you get the notion that it’s not important to me. Of course it is.
And I have every belief that where they stand is on the pinnacle of principle.
Celtic are but one club, with no particular remit to speak up for or on behalf of any other club.
AND with no duty to make a present of themselves to people who wish to drag them into some kind of emotional , ranting shouting match.
Celtic will patiently wait for the truth to emerge.
They themselves cannot undertake any investigation. (Nor should that be expected of them).
They, of themselves,cannot instruct the Board to hold an enquiry.
They, of themselves, cannot approach the PF, or LH, or UEFA or FIFA or even their fellow clubs,until there is at least some prima facie evidence of wrong-doing by SFA officers.
They have had generations of experience of how the SFA power clique worked and continues to work, and of how untouchable SDM’s reckless and improvident behaviour was indulgently smiled upon by the SFA and the press.
They know how to wait.
Test
easyJambo says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:52 pm
“…most recent tapes, but one thing is clear, thus far, D&P were not aware of Whyte being involved as a backer in the CVA or the asset sale.”
————-
That came across for me too. D&P, CW, CG & IA are all playing their own hands and it is not clear to what extent the collusion between them extends. CW pretends to be largely oblivious of CG’s plans but D&P can see his guard slip at times.
When talking about evidence to prove that CO shouldn’t hold the office that he does it’s worth listening to the latest CF tapes on what D&P and Whyte thought of the police inquiry into Rangers and whether any prosecution would follow.
My take on a first hearing was that the Scottish Police reportedly appeared to be keen to establish jurisdiction for any offence was south of the Border so they didn’t need to do anything.
Then there was the curious bit about HMRC supposedly wanting the cops to act and start arresting people but the cops becoming reluctant virgins and saying Hector’s got the same power of arrest as us.
For whatever reason it seems there is little appetite for police action unless ScotPol or whatever they now are are playing a blinderout of sight and building a watertight case and that we will shortly see dawn swoops.
I personally am unhappy that my Club has not actually done something more directly constructive for the good of Scottish Football by making at the very least some kind of statement on a number of issues. However, I speak from a position of ignorance and who knows what is taking place.
However I am mindful that any moves can lead to violence against innocent people and then there is a very valid argument about the legal duty of the Celtic Board being to its shareholders and that becomes a very tangled issue. At some point of course if enough fans walk away then where a Board’s duty lies might switch.
However I will be taking a leaf out of the position I see a lot of Rangers fans adopting and that is to support the players on the park and a plague on owners, Board and mystery investors. It might be simplistic but it is also my position and being someone who nearly saw the death of their own club I have no intention of doing anything to irrevocably damage it because I believe it has a morality and moral compass about its activities which is absent from those poisoning Scottish Football.
And my club are not the prime movers in destroying Scottish Football – all reasonable people know where the responsibilities rest for that and IMO weakening Celtic and other Scottish clubs will only provide the guilty parties in various positions within Scottish society to continue their nonsense unimpeded.
We all have our own choices to make – I will stay and fight in whatever way I can to expose the prime movers in the corruption. Others will make their own decision whether to stay or go and that’s their choice.
As ever, can i just ask, does anyone have a view on how the other CEOs, Chairmen or whoever was there voted (if there even was a vote).
Does anyone have a view on what the people from other clubs may or may not have said at the meeting.
What did the Kilmarnock chairman say, how did he vote, or the St Johnstone representative, what part did he play. What about the person there from Hearts, Hibs, Brechin, Queen of the South.
so that’s it – we are all to blame for CO, and we just wait, my question is wait for what? I think that is precisely what they want us to do, wait, and wait some more and we all get bored and the season starts and to be honest CF is not really helping, all very entertaining but very little in the way of real illegal or damning connections with SFA/SPL/SFL, the line taken will continue to be “no firm evidence” and “the game needs to move forward” (or to paraphrase “shut up and go away”)
Danish Pastry says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:41 pm
Castofthousands says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:41 pm
I immediately thought of Johnson because of his slightly higher profile:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17992838
On another listen it does sound more like Ellis. He was, of course, also involved with Miller in some way (Sports 9?)
The confusion is understandable – either of them could be quite easily be described as a lunatic
martybhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:02 pm
Sorry but I agree with John Clarke could we heve a simple TU with those who also agree and a TD for those who disagree
martybhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:48 pm
@john Clarke…..
First they came for the Jews…..we were silent
Next they came for the gypsies….again we were silent
Next they came for the disabled and unsound of mind…..still we were silent
Then they came for us….there was nobody left to speak out for us
The strongest group must ALWAYS speak out first.
====================================================
The way I see it is that the strongest froup is currently speaking-out.
It’s up to all the rest of us to combine and defeat the establishment position on this and by walking away you allow the corrupters to remain in charge. But it is your choice after all.
It would also help to actually get the sequence correct and use something closer to what Niemoller actually stated:
First they came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Catholic.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.
martybhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:02 pm
‘John Clarke….happen to think ..’
——
Canny be all that brilliant, martybhoy! I wasn’t able to convince you!
I can add that I am emotionally with you, in that I share the frustration of many, and earnestly wish that things would come to a head.
I just think that an initiative by Celtic alone would not only NOT advance the cause of right, but might even hold it back by apparently ‘polarising’ the matter.
It is not Celtic’s fight, but the fight of all of us to try to ensure fair play all round.
Your approach has its own validity, and you are perfectly entitled to advocate it, and many others appear to share it.
And thank you for the manner of your sharing.
Castofthousands says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:51 pm
“The thing I like about this blog is that I can read two diametrically opposed opionions and agree with both.”
—-
That makes two of us. Or should that be four?
Nicely apt post, cot.
I was reading the news this evening.I came across this nugget in the guardian online regarding the prism leaks in the US.
“Pressure was growing on the White House to explain whether there was effective congressional oversight of the programmes revealed by Snowden. The director of national intelligence, James Clapper, said in an NBC interview that he had responded in the “least untruthful manner” possible when he denied in congressional hearings last year that the NSA collected data on millions of Americans.”
now there’s some doublespeak that some of the players in this sordid debacle could learn from. I wonder who coached this fella for that appearance.
🙂
willmacufreewilmacufree says:
June 11, 2013 at 4:17 pm
For CO to be ejected there needed to be a majority of clubs wishing his removal.
Since his presence is more likely to enrich them as he makes sure Rangers get protection to climb the leagues, the clubs who will benefit from that climb are unlikely to want to see the back of him.
I think that the UEFA licence could be the extra leverage Celtic require to give them the upperhand when dealing with Ogilvie and Regan.
Unless the SFA can provide hard evidence of a written agreement between HMRC and Rangers that was not subsequently breached (if it existed in writing in the first place) then they have a case, along with the CF releases indicating how the SFA and Rangers sold UEFA the idea that the outstanding tax bill was not a payement overdue, that Celtic will have all the leverage they require to get the changes they want.
jerfeelgood says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:29 pm
” I wonder who coached this fella for that appearance..”–
—-
Possibly that Limey parliamentarian , whit’s his name,Yim Teo? He’s some thing of a coach in that area, I believe?
Just listened to Audio 09. There was a short exchange early on in the audio where D&P ask CW about a meeting between him and Green, where CW allegedly asked for £1M a year. CW laughed it off, in a way that I thought that it may well have been true.
I think that might actually be an important starting point for understanding why Ahmad and Green may have done the dirty on Whyte.
CF has given us tapes of various encounters between Whyte, Green and Ahmad, but there has been nothing in those discussions about what CW would get out of the deal other than indications of a shareholding which depended on the level of the ultimate fundraising.
It got me thinking, what is CF not letting us hear? Lets say that Whyte did indeed ask for £1M a year in perpetuity at one of these meetings (it might even have been recorded). What would Green and Ahmad think about that? Would they think that Whyte was a greedy b****** and that he hadn’t done anything to deserve such deal.
So the two hatch a plan to cut him out of the deal. That meant setting up a separate “Scottish” based Sevco and Green using his position as a director in both Sevco companies to request that D&P conclude the deal with Sevco Scotland and the rest is history.
The timing of the meetings is probably critical, given that Sevco Scotland was set up on 29th May. We have heard tapes of the meeting between Whyte, Ahmad and Stockbridge on 31st May where Ahmad came across very confidently in what would happen. Was it because he and Green had agreed on their plan and the process had started a couple of days earlier with the creation of Sevco Scotland.
That’s my theory for today, but I’m sure that CF will be able to dismiss it, or can she?
Castofthousands says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:08 pm
easyJambo says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:52 pm
“…most recent tapes, but one thing is clear, thus far, D&P were not aware of Whyte being involved as a backer in the CVA or the asset sale.”
————-
That came across for me too. D&P, CW, CG & IA are all playing their own hands and it is not clear to what extent the collusion between them extends. CW pretends to be largely oblivious of CG’s plans but D&P can see his guard slip at times.
============================================================
I don’t think CW’s guard slipped – I think he was playing with Duff and Duffer in a way but he was also testing to see if there was ways of getting the deal done more cheaply if Green didn’t come up with the cash. But D&P on the surface were playing hard ball by saying he would lose the money already put-up.
But it was obvious that raising the cash was tight which again makes me wonder if CW renaged on the money that he was supposed to be putting-up. If CW didn’t actually come up with the cash we’re back to the possibility that’s why sevco 5088 got ditched and sevco scotland became the vehicle. I just wish the company had been named during the conversation but the fact that CW didn’t mention it makes me feel he was relaxed that he was still in the deal.
But being the cynic that I am – just say that he had someone on the inside at D&P and I have to say that I truly find that highly unlikely because they are surely all professional and honourable people.
So even if one of the Duffers was his inside man then he has got to play it all with a straight bat in any conversation including a straight Duffer and in a way that provides an alibi for the bent duffer. Who knows the CF is churning out stuff perhaps some facts might appear to fit my fantasy. Now wouldn’t that be something.
The SFA and SPL would have had TRFC/RIFC/RFC/SEVCO ,anyone,straight into the SPL – no accounts, new club, whatever. They created and supported the breathtakingly brazen Bryson line.They have walked a tightrope with UEFA, albeit probably in the knowledge that they were supportive.I wont go on.
The only threat to Newclub is their own incompetence or greed. If they look like going belly up support will be withdrawn and the next incarnation arranged, in the meantime its business as usual.
When you make your own rules, where is the danger?
martybhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:28 pm
Ecobhoy….thank you for the sequence…..long day at work and too tired to recall it all.
The general gist was similar hopefully?
=======================================================
Gist similar but understanding off IMO.
If Celtic acted on their own they would be picked-off and slaughtered by the MSM. I have enough faith in Peter that when he acts he will win. And I don’t think for a minute that he or DD or anyone else at Celtic Park is happy with what is trickling out.
But very very often softly softly catches the monkey.
Having listened to all the most recent audio (D&P 6 June 2012) and taken a few notes, I’d beg your indulgence to allow me to recount and comment :
Audio excerpt number @ time
02 @ 4:50 “Saffery’s.”
03 @ 0:40 “Saffrey Champness” ( http://www.saffery.com/ ) London accountancy firm that CW says “has not been picked up by the media”.
05 @ 1:40 “Withey thinks HMRC are all Celtic fans”, CW says in disbelief. Echo’s the text of a J. Irvine e:mail that Charlotte posted.
05 @ 7:10 “Tax case catalyst for everything”. CW’s comment struck me as being a bit more meaningful that its most basic interpretation.
07 Full of personal stuff. These people are human beings after all. If you want to snigger quietly to yourself however, I think the assasinations start about half way through. Ally gets a slating then a wee gold star.
08 @ 3:30 “Ellis tried to get Bill Miller involved”. I’m interested in Ellis since Charlotte introduced her arrival with the strap line ‘The Chris Akers and Andrew Ellis show begins’. If there was a big picture Ellis may have been a key figure, though he is discounted in this audio excerpt.
08 @ 7:15 “Lloyd’s debt was assigned”, as opposed to paid off. This means something I think but I’m not sure what.
08 @ 7:30 “Structure of CVA agreed with CW”. I didn’t think this was part of the administrators role but I am unaccustomed to such skullduggery.
09 @ 3:35 “HMRC must not know about CW/Ticketus connection”. I wonder how that panned out. CW was already on the naughty step so didn’t want anyone to see he had stolen a biscuit as well.
09 @ 5:20 “Still planning a CVA”. CW doen’t appear to have been planning a fatal crash. However this may just have been the hand he was showing to D&P. He may have already given CG the keys to the ambulance at this stage.
10 @ 2:00 CW tries to mask his concern with Gary Withey’s predicament. Could have been simple human sentiment?
10 @ 4:20 “Withey was a source for Mark Daly’s BBC expose”.
10 Much talk about the publicity effect of Mark Daly’s programme.
General observations.
Can’t remember the audio location but CW is probing D&P to divine their view on CG’s financial position. CG was in for £4m at that point but was due to pay £7.5M in total. CW introduced the £5.5M as an interim figure with the balance to follow. CW seemed to be priming D&P. Could a shortfall in funds allow a 5088/Scotland switch to be done?
It’s actually possible to get to like CW as he comes across as a lot more straightforward than D&P, CG or IA. Best of a bad bunch. He seemed a bit stressed out in the audio but more relaxed by the end. He was interested in getting the Jerome pension fund money sorted quickly. Was this money needed to fund the transaction?
CW is concerned about Ticketus throughout. He suggests on a number of occasions that if Ticketus colluded in the club buying itself (can’t remember the terminology) then this would invalidate the contract. Seemed a precarious tactic to me.
easyJambo says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:34 pm
————
easyjambo I’m positive that Whyte made reference to this £1 million when he had his meeting with Imran and Stockbridge. It was in the context of a promise green had given him in regard of the ticketus money he(Whyte) was liable for. Green had promised him £1 million a year to help with the cost of it or words to that effect.
Auldheid says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:30 pm
“..Unless the SFA can provide hard evidence of a written agreement between HMRC and Rangers that was not subsequently breached (if it existed in writing in the first place) then they have a case, along with the CF releases indicating how the SFA and Rangers sold UEFA the idea that the outstanding tax bill was not a payement overdue, that Celtic will
have all the leverage they require to get the changes they want…”
———-
With the necessary reminder that the fight is not Celtic’s alone,I agree. And as said elsewhere,the CF stuff would have to be authenticated.
easyJambo says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:34 pm
“Just listened to Audio 09. There was a short exchange early on in the audio where D&P ask CW about a meeting between him and Green, where CW allegedly asked for £1M a year. CW laughed it off,”
————–
Interesting hypothesis EJ. He does make a point of laughing it off and that may indeed be significant. 09 @ 1:28
We are all complicit
All the recent and not so recent events have made some thoughts I have had swirling around clearer. This saga has been going on for years and what struck me very early (back in the RTC days) was how amateurish most of the participants have been. This includes RFC execs, SFA/SPL/SFL execs, journalists, and even some of our esteemed legal and marketing professionals.
Some history of my involvement may be appropriate here, I first starting following RTC a long time ago when I heard of the rumours that all was not right down Ibrox way, at first it was the equivalent of the guilty pleasure of watching a car crash, but as the events unfolded a sense of anger drove me to a different reason for engaging in this story, simply put – as a follower of a smaller football club I know for a fact if East Fife had committed even a fraction of the same offences or similar financial debts they would not exist today and no one in the corridors of power at Scottish Football would have lifted a finger to save them And I know EFFC would not have been unique in this situation.
Look at some of the draconian punishments handed down by the SFA over the years for minor paperwork issues or relatively benign comments onto other teams. But over the last few years Rangers have pretty much been able to twist things to their satisfaction time after time – with the one exception, when the fans spoke out in unison. And this is what is needed now – we need to unite together (even RFC fans if they see that they too are being shortchanged by our “leadership”).
Uniting everyone to a common purpose is not going to be easy and there are three main strands to the fans efforts at the moment, firstly “rangers must die” this is a sizable group of to be honest mainly Celtic supporters who feel that nothing less than the complete shutdown of RFC is acceptable for their sins. Secondly “rangers must live” the RFC fans position that regardless of wrongdoing or scams or nefarious investors making money from them RFC must continue now and forever etc and thirdly “the SFA/SPL/SFL leadership must be cleansed” – this is where I am, quite frankly if RFC live or die is not really my concern as long as it is done legally and with no special treatment.
This is the one point where fans of most clubs and even RFC can see some common ground – the leadership of our governing bodies over the last few years has been nothing less than amateurish and embarrasing, from Doncaster’s Ratner moments to Regan’s deer in the headlights act they have failed Scottish Football, and all the while taking large professional salaries. Bryson’s testimony was one of the most farcical statements to have come from the SFA ever.
There is one thing that could bring this to a head – the semi mythical 5 way agreement. So much has been written about this and analysed but no-one has really nailed Regan and co on the specifics : “is there a 5 way agreement” – yes or no? “if so why is it confidential?” “was rangers treated with special consideration?” “if not then why is this agreement not made public in the spirit of transparency?”. And this is where we are all complicit – we could focus as a group on one thing (it doesn’t have to be the 5 way – but one specific action) but instead we are all pursuing hundreds of different threads with sometimes manic attention to detail, the problem is the effort becomes diluted, it becomes background noise – Charlotte is teasing but not delivering.
In a lot of ways we missed our chance months ago – Auldheid put together an excellent letter which was sent to all clubs, the response? as far as I am aware nothing – not even acknowledgement of receipt (TSFM/Auldheid can correct this) – that was when we missed an opportunity, because as we all know but it is worth spelling out again – the SFA does not rule by divine right, it is owned and run by its members, who are? – our clubs, who are owned and run by our boards. Who owe their existence to our money, fundamentally the only sources of income for our clubs and the SFA is through the fans, by gate fees, tickets, merchandise and our willingess to buy products that encourage sponsorship – so through our money – we collectively are the SFA – we should have seized the moment and collectively pinned our clubs down on the response, they ignored it and sadly so did we. Again – “time to move forward”. Time to move forward is the constant refrain but forward to where? not with this leadership – so can we unite on one thing to drive a fan led movement for change? or do we just sit back and listen to more hilarious Craigy Whyte outtakes while running the RFC numbers over again to see when they will go bust? Should auldheid’s letter be dusted down? can we get TSFM & Twitter & Fan groups & Alex Thomson & Stuart Cosgrove & even Tom English together to have one focused cause that becomes the story? A public protest? a letter campaign? we need to stop being the “monitors” and start being a force for change, The SFA must go. sorry for the rant.
easyJambo says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:52 pm
I’m only halfway through the most recent tapes, but one thing is clear, thus far, D&P were not aware of Whyte being involved as a backer in the CVA or the asset sale. That is quite important when considering whether or not D&P were party to the change from Sevco 5088 or Sevco Scotland, or if it was a simple case of Ahmad and Green misleading or duping them
——————————————————————–
Yep ………
At one point CW nearly gave the game away …. PW said …. you know more than letting on (or similiar) …
CG already paid 4.2m ….
must pay by next week ….. what happens if does not pay on time …….. Breach … we keep the £4m …… CW gulped (or gasped) …..
CW suggested that they assist the CG bid ….. can they delay ….. again no, that is breach and would be a disaster …. opens door to Blue Knights ….. but agreed they have no money ….
The realisation that they would have to fund june payroll of £3m ….. disaster …
CW again suggests then that they assist the CG bid, maybe £1m per month to help payment …. D&P suddenly receptive …..
Got to admit …. CW played a blinder ….
Castofthousands says:
June 11, 2013 at 9:51 pm
23 0 Rate This
The thing I like about this blog is that I can read two diametrically opposed opionions and agree with both
&&&&&&
I’m not sure I agree! 🙂
Just listened to the latest D&P tapes:
The worst part for me was hearing how Strathclydes Finest are looking for ways not to follow the evidence or get involved by simply putting it down to a jurisdiction problems.
bayviewgold says:
June 11, 2013 at 11:11 pm
18
1
Rate This
We are all complicit
______________________________________________
Well said.
Agree fully.
Fans must unite and that includes TRFC fans.
If we stand together, we pwn these crooks and charlatans. If we dither and squabble, the spivs and their placemen will legistlate to divide and rule.
The fact that Ogilvie had the gall to even stand for re-election on the basis of what is factually known already is proof of his unsuitablility for the roll and his lack of personal integrity.
ForresDee says:
June 11, 2013 at 11:54 pm
2
0
Rate This
Just listened to the latest D&P tapes:
The worst part for me was hearing how Strathclydes Finest are looking for ways not to follow the evidence or get involved by simply putting it down to a jurisdiction problems.
__________________________________
Conjures up visions of cheif wiggum chewing a doughnot, dunnit just?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6Q4IRg73AI
bayviewgold says:
June 11, 2013 at 11:11 pm
“All the recent and not so recent events have made some thoughts I have had swirling around clearer. ”
——————-
Looks as if you’ve been cooking up a storm. The lack of focus on this blog is both a strength and a weakness, depending upon the circumstances. I’m not sure we can do anything other than voice our opinions, get informed and possibly influence those around us. Over time that alone may be sufficiently corrosive to wear down the barriers. If nothing else it allows us to vent our feelings and perhaps therefore feel a little less frustrated. You never know, maybe someone is looking in that might be able to influence situations.
It will be hard to unite opposing factions against the authorities since their grievances have a different root. Rangers fans feel they have been ‘punished’ enough whereas others believe too much lenience has been applied. There may be a common enemy but to unite on that basis would be mob rule.
Its interesting to hear the perspective from a supporter of a wee team and someone who has engaged with these affairs over a long period. Your summary was very concise. The divide and conquer principle is a great encumbrance however. I blame the Normans but I don’t want to go over all that again. We must hope that the drip drip effect of TSFM will attract other Charlottes and the suchlike, to share their views and information.
The keyboard is mightier than the nucleur device.
I think neepheid would be able to comment generally on the 5 way agreement. However if Charlote’s material fails to shake the foundations of the establishment then we must presume they are built on solid rock. If they are built on sand however the drip of information will slowly but surely undermine them irrevocably.
Some interesting points from the D&P audio today …
On TU deal being Finacial Assistance ….
CW was keen to get out of the TU deal and that D&P would use the funds to pay off Jerome. Not surprising really since there is the possibility of pension fraud looming.
D&P raised the question of thorney issue of the TU deal being Financial Assistance, but as the discussion progressed they seemed to side with CW that he is in the clear since he was acting on Legal Advice ….. Bad advice
CW laywers say not Financial Assistance (referred to Withey email) …… CW says I had no idea ….
They (legals) must have made a mistake ….. they did not identify any roadblock …
Also … TU aware of assignation of Lloyds debt and so CW in clear …. ie Not Financial Assiatance
CW asked where the police investigation was going ……. D&P appeared to say that after initial enquiries that it was not going anywhere …. more interested about wrong doing in Scotland but deal done under Eng law … they don’t want to get involved …
Then ….
GW is Daley (BBC) source …… turned it into D&P issue …..should have been about him
Finally …. nudge nudge wink wink …
Group can/will go bust ….. does’nt matter ….. need that to get at CB ….
as long as CW is not included in claims … not to come and backfire on me ( CW )
Its a shell (Group)….. owned by Liberty Capital …. theres nothing there .. !
Amazing …!
Again …. you just gotta hand it to CW …. he played D&P like a violin ….. It’s just that D&P were so compliant in this audio …..
I think the little twitter exchange below is illuminating.
A TRFC fan berating Charlotte for NOT doctoring the tape????
They really don’t do irony, do they!
And while I have no interest in former RFC players venereal diseases, and I don’t know (less care) whether CWs assertion is true – I have no axe to grind with the gentleman concerned, I find the fact that the administrators of the insolvency are matey enough with CW to exchange such gossip illuminating and pertinent.
Let me be clear disclosing private medical records is ethically contemptible. Whereas unsubstantiated gossiping about footballers sex lives is a national obsession. The disclosure/ unsubstantiated gossip in this instance was perpetrated by CW. If the information had reached our illustrious 4th estate instead of CF would they have censored it? I don’t reckon so.
And so I would like to furnish a nice conundrum/logical dilema for those exercised bears with the required intelectual faculties (not you Chris Graham!) to try and get their heads round:
Pick your preference:
Is it
(a) CFs incidental dislcosure of ‘pathological liar’ CWs verbal assertion about a former players medical condition was clearly a lie told by a known liar, therefore no harm was done by the incidental disclosure and CF is in the clear.
or
(b) CW was telling the truth on this element, and therefore possibly also on some of the other revelations in the CF tapes, therefore the CF materials and even some of what CW says in them cannot be dismissed out of hand without further scrutiny.
Which is it? It can’t be both! Or can it?
Is this one of those ‘Same club’ history, honours,/ New club debt & punsihment scenarios? i.e. was transubstantiation involved?
________________________________________________
Esta, you get the complete unedited tape and you’re picking up on this. Question the administrators FFS.
Reply
Retweet
Favorite
3 Retweets
19LisbonBhoy67 Joe Chalmers stevendoyle
3:27 PM – 11 Jun 13
Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ @esta_x 50m
@CharlotteFakes @Gri64 @TomEnglishSport so that makes it ok for u to release private medical information we don’t even know is true? #morals
Details
Fr. Paul Stone Fr. Paul Stone @FrPaulStone 48m
@CharlotteFakes @esta_x @Gri64 @TomEnglishSport Re morals Esta, is it ok for you to pretend ur the same club after stiffing the creditors?
Details
Gordon Gordon @Gri64 47m
@FrPaulStone @CharlotteFakes @esta_x @TomEnglishSport Oh fuck off
Details
Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ @esta_x 44m
@FrPaulStone @CharlotteFakes @Gri64 @TomEnglishSport pretend? SFA membership transferred, so no pretending.
Details
Fr. Paul Stone Fr. Paul Stone @FrPaulStone 42m
@esta_x @CharlotteFakes @Gri64 @TomEnglishSport Sure thing. I’ve got Andy Murrays gym membership, now I’m playing at Wimbledon next week.
Details
Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ @esta_x 38m
@FrPaulStone @CharlotteFakes @Gri64 @TomEnglishSport aye & 50 000 tennis fans will come & watch you play
Details
#Obsessed Par #Obsessed Par @doelcmila 33m
@esta_x Wimbledon doesn’t hold 50,000. @frpaulstone @charlottefakes @gri64 @tomenglishsport
Details
Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ @esta_x 32m
@doelcmila @FrPaulStone @CharlotteFakes @Gri64 @TomEnglishSport but if it did they would go watch paul play #whoosh
Details
Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ Esta ☆☆☆☆☆ @esta_x 25m
@CharlotteFakes @Gri64 @TomEnglishSport you could of / should of, edited that out. Not really important for Scottish fitbaw was it?
Myself, kids & Grandkids all wear Bacelona tops now.nae other scottish club tops will be worn untill the corrupt SFA & all cubs complicit in re-electing CO are outed .We always bought tops for the kids that had a scottish connection,But they do not want them any more & are not bothered where they are from.Thats 4 Grand kids 4 Kids 8 Adults all buying about £650 quid every year thats lost to scottish football.multply that across scotland & see whats lost….
newtz says:
June 12, 2013 at 12:23 am
‘…. he played D&P like a violin ….. It’s just that D&P were so compliant in this audio …..’
—–
Undoubtedly. But can this tape be considered as evidence of a conspiracy between Clarke and Whitehouse?
Would that it may!
…fund raising suggestions for the site?
How about releasing a ringtone download of Craig Whyte taking a wazz? (c.f. @CharlotteFakes D+P 6 june 2012 pART 12/12 2:17:2:48?)
Has the added advantage of acting as a viral ad for this site and CF without drawing any attention actionable written record?
OK…OK… I’ll get me coat!
Newtz says:
June 12, 2013 at 12:23 am
==================================
I’m intrigued by the whole financial assistance thing.
No matter how I try to figure it out, I simply don’t see how financial assistance can apply to Craig Whyte’s purchase of Rangers.
The Ticketus deal did not result in a reduction in the net assets of the company.
When Wavetower became the holder of a floating charge over the assets of Rangers, it was only because it took on an existing debt associated with that floating charge.
If Wavetower had borrowed money to buy the Rangers shares and assigned the cost as a new debt against the club then that absolutely would have been financial assistance.
But, as I understand it…
With no additional debt burden, the loss of intangible assets (future ticket sales) would have been cancelled out by the reduction in debt as those tickets were sold.
As it turned out, the vast majority of those future tickets were not sold. Therefore, to my mind, Wavetower have a valid floating charge and are creditors in the liquidation of Rangers to the tune of £18m or so. Exactly as BoS would have been if the Ticketus deal had never happened. As I say, as I understand it.
Of course it suited D&P to say definitively that the club’s purchase was the result of financial assistance. It simultaneously allowed them say that they would strike out the Ticketus contract and Craig’s secured debt should a CVA be agreed.
But, did they truly believe that a CVA would be agreed?
Long time lurker finally joining up… And testing to see whether the instructions are correct and this works..!!!
Nonsensical SFA statement – MSM now spinning
How are the SFA considering how they might `investigate` a liscense breach?
– Have Green and Whyte in for a wee chat with CO?
Blimey
BBC Scotland news are reporting on the ASA decision but refer to it as relating to the administration of RFC! Again, it’s like liquidation didn’t happen (which would make the complaint a nonsense). Is Mark Hateley now writing news bulletins for the BBC?
Part 8 – 6.30 mins
Duffer 1: Under the terms of the deal, this is….there’s a lot of conflicting documentation, erm, but the overriding spirit of the documentation is that Wavetower acquired, erm, the Lloyd’s debt, if, if it had repaid the Lloyd’s debt, so if Ticketus had advanced the money to repay the Lloyd’s debt, ie not to assign the Lloyd’s debt, ie the assignment, there is no argument it wasn’t financial assistance
Client: Right
Duffer 1:But they didn’t repay the Lloyd’s debt, they, there was an assignment document, there was an assignation of the Lloyd’s debt
Client: Right
Duffer 1:So if we could show they were aware of the assignation
Duffer 2:(inaudible) reasonable
Duffer 1:Yep, then you’re home and dry
Client:Yep, yep, are you gonna strike out their claim next week or you gonna let them vote next week
Duffer 1:We, how we do it next week, is, because we can’t, don’t have access to Group files, we got to admit their claim but mark it, but called it marked, objected to
Client:Right
Duffer 1:So you demonstrate its disputed
Client:Right
Duffer 1:And the CVA agreement provides that it will be subjected to (inaudible) legal review
Client:Right, ok
Duffer 1:Which is what they are asking about (inaudible) shouldn’t say that
Duffer 2:Why does it say that
Duffer 1:In, maybe (inaudible) their a bit dim witted
Client:Is there, they must surely be the right, the easy target for them surely should be, is to do with Lloyd’s
Duffer 1:Unless their lawyer wrote to them to say it’s dodgy and they bought it.
Client:Pretty funny stupid if the did
Duffer 1:Yeah
Auldheid says: June 11, 2013 at 10:30 pm
willmacufreewilmacufree says:
June 11, 2013 at 4:17 pm
For CO to be ejected there needed to be a majority of clubs wishing his removal. etc
Since his presence is more likely to enrich them as he makes sure Rangers get protection to climb the leagues, the clubs who will benefit from that climb are unlikely to want to see the back of him.
======
Sorry about the name. In the change of system I seem to have got squared.
Thanks for that Auldheid. Calmed my rush to judgment. I’ll never learn.
So Peter Lawwell is one vote among 42. Also, a look at the composition of the various boards indicates a preponderance of card carrying fans of oldclub/newclub. Getting anything through that lot would be impossible without a lot of support, which may not be forthcoming.
I’ve always felt that the power lies with those who have membership across the various boards, since they would have the knowledge of all events. After that, those with permanent jobs, like civil servants, will influence events.
Auldheid says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:30 pm
………………………………….
I’m still struggling with what is wrong with open honesty from clubs?
ecobhoy says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:46 pm
………………………………..
One simple sentence from Celtic would most likely have allthe impact needed in this farce to put a lot of things to bed…and that sentence…
TRFC are a new reformed club with 1 div 3 title…the old club ceased to exist…
Their current position looks like…smells like they are complicit.
bayviewgold says:
June 11, 2013 at 11:11 pm
49 1 Rate This
We are all complicit …
————
Excellent signpost contribution there bayviewgold.
It’s true, the SFA has become a ruling elite; its members seem to believe that fans exist for their sakes. Secrecy has no place IN the running sport. It is contrary to the essence of fair play. How the SFA can justify a secret agreement is beyond credulity. It needs resignations en masse and democratic elections for each and every post.
To be fair to Rangers fans (there’s a phrase you don’t hear too often 🙂 ) the instinctive reaction of many, when the seriousness of the situation became apparent, was to accept a demotion to the lowest division for a restart. They felt embarrassed and humiliated. After the newco kicked in, the propaganda from the media and authorities covered the fact of liquidation and new club with a nice myth about the club existing outside space and time, and independent of any financial input. Charles Green did his bit too, and that is probably the reason why his stock is still high among the fans. And also why his stock is high. The propaganda has been successful. Hugely appealing to the confirmatory bias It’s now a uniquely Scottish myth. Sadly, for Rangers fans the manic insistence on beng the same club has condemned them as forever Sevco in the eyes of others.
Oddly enough, I believe, the ‘Rangers must die’ sentiments were, in hindsight, what would have served Rangers fans best. A year or two out would have been the best reboot and would have given the proper football fans who go to Ibrox at least a chance to re-define their club, and like Airdrie United fans, they could have carried on the footballing legacy of the former club with some pride.
To all fans of Sevco how does it feel to have your manager spoke about in terms of, he is useless, he is not up to the job, I would have got rid of him, the players do not respect him.
But here is the crucial point, but he SELLS season books. Wake up and do something.
I take that back, as Walter (£1.7 million a year man with no financial help to old Rangers) is back. Go buy your season books and enjoy.
I would add to my comments last night that I have never suggested that one club only should show some transparency. I think every supporter in Scotland is entitled to hear from the club which they support, emotionally and financially, how that club voted and why.
If the answer is that Osborne was returned unopposed, with no vote taken, then what’s the big secret? Are we too stupid to be told stuff like that? Of course we would all draw our own conclusions, but at least our conclusions would be based on what actually happened. Was it Regan who promised transparency at the SFA, or is it just my imagination? What a joke. But really not funny.
Test
Completely disheartened by the re-election of CO tbh. I’m not sure what I expected but I suppose I hoped some of the better run clubs would be lying in wait to act for his removal at the correct moment.
It does rather seem that they are all happy with CO and SR, indeed no moves have been made to remove DL or ND either.
I’m struggling to get my head around what this tells us. Are they all complicit in whats going on or are us bampots so far off the mark?
neepheid says:
June 12, 2013 at 8:33 am
I would add to my comments last night that I have never suggested that one club only should show some transparency. I think every supporter in Scotland is entitled to hear from the club which they support, emotionally and financially, how that club voted and why.
==================================================================
I read what you say and I want to agree with it. But we have seen the way in which just about every sinew of the Scottish establishment, from top to bottom, has been employed in this disastrous debacle.
I therefore think that all the other fans falling out with their clubs and possibly even deserting the sport will suit the ongoing agenda. There will never be enough leaving to significantly damage a club in financial terms. But disillusioned activists leaving is critical in the sense that these kind of people can motivate others and often see the bigger picture because many look beyond just the football being played.
And most of all they will stop questioning the things they see as totally unfair because it has ever been true that it’s better to be inside than outside the tent especially when it’s p*ssing down.
So where do we go we have to have dialogue with the clubs to explain what our concerns are and why we think a vote should be cast a certain way or not even cast. We have to hear what their arguments might be against this and broaden the discussion.
But mostly we have got to recognise that SFM has no writ to tell any club what to do – most clubs have mechanisms by which their fans can express matters that are of issue or concern them. We have to stop inventing the wheel and use what exists. So instead of people walking off in the huff we should develop the argument and propagate that to the various existing fan groups/club mechanisms.
It’s easy to mouth-off about things but so much harder to do the work to actually help build the kind of grassroots think-tank and power house to disseminate information on issues to as wide a range of Scottish football fans as possible.
Always remember, however, that many fans don’t want a sore head over their hobby. Many just want to be able to have a few pints with their mates and watch the footie and nothing else. They just want a release from pressures of work, family, whatever. And that doesn’t make them any less a fan than a budding revolutionary who spends every waking hour bent to the destruction of the SFA or anything else.
Because for that ‘revolutionary’ to succeed he needs the backing of ordinary fans in their tens of thousands. But they won’t be easily persuaded as most of them ain’t daft – and that’s why we need to supply the info and create arguments that will reach them and create discussions and debate in their own clubs or groupings. That’s how actual change will come and not with hot air or hot heads.
By Gordon Parks, Gary Ralston
D-Day for the Scottish Football League as clubs rage over ‘betrayal’
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfl-sides-claim-been-betrayed-1947225
vforvernacular says:
June 12, 2013 at 9:40 am
I’m struggling to get my head around what this tells us
========================================
i think it confirms what we kinda already know, that at pretty much every level, the game as a whole and individual clubs are very badly run.
And before anyone comes on and says Celtic are a well run club….in recent years we’ve had Bangura, Murphy, Miku, Lassad, Juarez, Ljungberg, Zheng Zhi, Rassmusen, Fortune, kaddouri, brozek, hooiveld…..a lot of cash out the door for hardly a ball kicked in anger (or in the right direction!)
I don’t think it’s a scottish disease though, i think most countries clubs are basket cases. Of course, FIFA are the most self serving/incompetent/corrupt (delete as you see fit) organisation and as such “lead by example”
Unless FIFA change and drive that down, then I expect no changes at all – and of course, too much money at stake at FIFA to stop shenanigans going on
so, in summary, the game is a bogey and it’s probably better to just let it implode upon itself.
A Kyle Bartley groin strain from 20011 is the 4th most read story in the Daily Record website this morning 🙂
No need to wait, depserately hoping for any of these corrupted clowns to show shame or humility – Boycott Hampden for international and domestic matches – The SFA cannot hide that under Campbells carpet and neither can the MsM ignore such either.
All fans who wish their grievance to be noticed, simply refuse to acknowledge Hampden as a venue and tell you’re club you will not attend any domestic ties there until Campbell Ogilivie is shown the door. It’s as simple as that.
If we want to take control of affairs, we can, all it would take is a couple of ties played to a ghost stadium and the lot of them would panic.
Do nothing and we will still be debating these bozo’s in 2 years time, a Hampden boycott is the one thing they would least wish for and possibly the only way to get rid of them.
or 2011 as the case may be