The Immortality Project – or – Death and Denial – Guest Post by Humble Pie
Death has a tendency to put everything else into perspective.
My family recently suffered a bereavement. It wasn’t a sudden death but it was still far too quick and far too soon for any of us to get our heads around. As our loved one’s illness progressed, each of us, in our own way, began to prepare for the inevitable. In the end, whilst it was not unexpected, it was nevertheless very traumatic, for everyone concerned.
Grief is a strange and often debilitating set of emotions. Even now, a few months on, when the intense sadness and tears have given way (mostly) to disbelief, we still find it hard to fully comprehend what has happened. We might never completely ‘come to terms’ with that fact, however, we do accept that it DID happen, much as we all wish that it hadn’t.
Many of you will be familiar with the Kubler-Ross model of the five stages of grief; Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. Well, I am aware of having experienced each of these stages over the last year, as well as a couple of others which I wasn’t prepared for (a lot of personal reflection, a little guilt and a not insignificant amount of pain).
It seems to me that the Rangers supporters have been purposefully ensnared in an interminable cycle of the first two stages of KR; alternating between the denial of the death of Rangers and anger at what they feel has been done to their beloved club then back again to denial. This, as any first year psychology student will tell you, is a very unhealthy state of mind which, if not addressed, can quickly lead to physiological and behavioural problems.
At its lowest level, for example, people throughout the ages have continued to set places at the dinner table for their long-dead loved ones. They know in their hearts that the person has died but are comforted by the familiarity of doing the same things that they have always done. However, in extreme cases people have even kept and maintained the actual cadavers of the deceased, dressed them, talked to them and watched TV with them, in a state of absolute denial.
In archaeology, accepting and recognising the inevitability of death through conducting ceremonial burial services is considered to be one of the very first signs of a civilised people. You see, grief is a uniquely human and cathartic process i.e. it can produce ‘a feeling of being cleansed emotionally, spiritually, or psychologically as a result of an intense emotional experience’.
In short, grief is ultimately a good thing which leads you through a series of natural psychological steps towards acknowledgement of an unalterable situation, allowing you to take stock, re-evaluate and start to move on with your own life in a positive way.
That is what should have happened with the fans of the old Rangers.
Instead, this ‘never-ending cycle of the undead’ was positively encouraged by those many unscrupulous individuals who saw a way of making a fast buck from maintaining the ‘Then, Now and Forever’ illusion. Worse still, this resurrection fantasy is being facilitated by the very people whom we have entrusted to stop this kind of thing from happening in the first place. If only the SFA or the MSM had told them the truth, they might have had a chance to actually face up to the situation.
Unfortunately, these two bodies were so complicit in Rangers demise, so right up to their necks in the brown smelly stuff, that they were too afraid to face the inevitable anger which would have rightly come their way. So, they made up grim fairy tales to feed to the bereaved souls about non-existent ‘holding companies’, the ethereal ‘club’ which transcends death and by suggesting that it is ‘all a matter of opinion’.
Ernest Becker, in his 1973 Pulitzer Prize winning book ‘The Denial of Death’, posits that “human civilization is no more than an elaborate, symbolic defence mechanism against the knowledge of our own mortality”. This fear of death acts as an emotional and intellectual response to our basic survival instincts.
‘By embarking on what Becker refers to as an ‘immortality project’, in which a person creates or becomes part of something which they feel will last forever, the person feels they too have become part of something eternal; something that will never die, compared to their physical body that will die one day’. When this ‘immortality project’ is threatened it leads inevitably to fear, depression, loss of identity and sense of purpose.
In that case, the initial reaction of the fans to the imminent demise of Rangers was entirely predictable and understandable. “No way, this can’t happen to us, we are the people”. However, as soon as the full realisation of their club’s inexorable slide into liquidation began to sink in, came the expected anger. But towards whom should their righteous wrath be directed?
“Who did this to us, who are these people?” they cried. “Not I”, said Sir Murray of the Mint, “for I was duped”, “Nor I”, said President Ogilvie, “for it was never my role”. “Nor I”, said Mr Smith, “for I never knew nothing or nothing”. “Not us”, squealed the media monkeys in unison, “for that’s what we were told”, “Nor us”, said the SPL “it was nothing to do with us”.
“Who then?, we demand to know who these people are”, howled the horrified hordes. “T’was the Whyte knight”, they all concurred, “he alone caused this calamity”. “And the bampots”, sneered the slimy slug. “And the taxman”, puffed the pundits. “And the unseen hand of Mr Lawwell”, whispered the bilious bears from the safety of their den.
There were even those who tried to warn them, not least Hugh Adam, Phil Mac and RTC but they didn’t want to know. Even when their very own Messrs Green and Traynor spelt out, in no uncertain terms, that liquidation meant the death of their club, still they chose wilful ignorance. The MSM, with access to the same information, encouraged them to keep their heads firmly ensconced, ostrich stylee, on the banks of that ironically blue and white river in Egypt. Which just goes to show ‘you can lead a lamb to knowledge but you can’t make it think’
The point though is that the Rangers fans have heard the truth and once you have heard something you cannot unhear it. Even if you reject it, even if you deny it, it gnaws away at the back of your mind, infecting your subconscious.
Almost a year ago, I posted the following on TSFM. http://theinternetbampot.wordpress.com/2012/09/ in which I postulated that the SFA were too frightened to say anything which might imply that The Rangers were a new club.
Looking back at that post, I am amazed at how little the landscape has changed.
A year on and it has become apparent that the corporate cancer that destroyed Rangers has continued to metastasize in its new host. Charlotte’s revelations may have shown us that the rabbit hole goes much deeper than we first suspected. However, in my humble opinion, the information provided has only succeeded in ‘poisoning the well’ and deflecting attention from the main culprits in this disaster. Layer upon layer of complexity has been added to an already opaque story and the majority of her utterances appear designed to engage the more enquiring minds on this forum and consume their excess mental energy.
I know that some people are bored with this ‘debate’ but, to my mind, the single most important step for the redemption of Scottish football is the fan’s acceptance that The Rangers, who currently ply their trade in the SPFL First Division, are a new club. Once they have accepted that then everything else that they perceive has happened to them will begin to make sense. They will see that rather than everyone having a fly kick at them when they were down, most were actually trying to help them. It will also dawn on them that the very people who have been telling them that there is an anti-Rangers conspiracy against them are actually the same ones who are screwing them over.
Rangers were not relegated to div 3, The Rangers applied as a new club and were granted entry into the bottom tier of Scottish football. They are not banned from European competition, merely ineligible as a new club without the requisite financial ‘history’. Any reference to ‘rulings’ from ECA, ASA, the BBC Trust and any internal or so-called ‘independent’ enquiries are completely irrelevant, as none of these bodies are the final arbiter in this case. Scots Law is clear that there is no distinction between club and company after incorporation, when the company dies the club dies with it. That is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.
Sooner or later The Rangers fans are going to realise this fact and when they do, there will be hell to pay. Until they do, their new club can never become truly cleansed. Only then can they move on and only then can they join together with fans of other clubs to root out the real cancer at the heart of Scottish football. That’s why the MSM and the SFA are still petrified to say anything. In the meantime the real creators of this disaster are sneakily positioning themselves further and further away from the scene of the crime.
I am sure the majority of us would happily accept a new Rangers, cleansed of its financial, emotional and supremacist baggage. A club that all decent Rangers fans could support without feeling any guilt about Rangers downfall or that they were being taken for mugs. The prospect of a new dawn in Scottish football, where sporting integrity took primacy and clubs lived within their means was very real. However, as usual the SFA couldn’t miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
The truth is that Scottish football is in the state it is in, not because Rangers died but because those with the power and mandate to effect the prognosis sat back and did nothing. I am sure that they believe that ‘time heals all wounds’ and that the longer this injustice is allowed to stand the more likely it will be accepted by the man in the street. No doubt the authorities feel it is in the national interest to ‘let sleeping dogs lie’. However I cannot accept this. I believe that it is vital that we are able to face up to reality so we can move on for the benefit of all football supporters.
Scottish football is at a crossroads right now, I think we all feel it. Rampant corruption has become so mainstream that many of our fellow supporters have began to accept this as the norm. However, it just doesn’t sit right with me and I suspect that many regular contributors and readers of this blog feel likewise.
We have quite lost our way and we live in a society which spends vast amounts of money paying people like Jack Irvine to ensure that we stay lost. The mainstream media treat us like little imbeciles and demand that we conform to their assumed ‘professional superiority’. The PR machine plays up to our stereotypes and feeds our fantasies while the poorest people pay to swallow their poisonous propaganda and relentless trivia.
So what can we do ? Clearly, battering out a few blog posts and strongly worded letters to the various authorities involved has been rewarded by the square root of FA.
How can we make this an opportunity for growth rather than contributing to the destruction of Scottish football ? It is not good enough to tear down a system unless we have a better system to replace it. However, I believe that it is not the system itself which is broken. It is that those charged with administering the system are hopelessly corrupted, hugely conflicted and unable to apply their rules without fear or favour.
By their incapacity and inaction (wilful or otherwise) the SFA have facilitated a motley crew of various spivs, chancers and con-artists to glean the last few meagre pickings from the bones of the emaciated loyal supporters of this new club purporting to be the once mighty Rangers. They have permitted these ne’er-do-wells to collectively appropriate many tens of millions of pounds from the Rangers fans, the creditors and the public purse. They have already allowed this corporate malignancy to spread to a new host, ‘The Rangers’, and the absence of ‘moral hazard’ makes it more likely that the disease will continue to spread.
Benjamin Franklin once said, “‘Nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.”
Someone else once said, “The wages of sin are death, but by the time taxes are taken out, it’s just sort of a tired feeling.”
I sense that we are all beginning to get tired of this. It is time to stand together, all football fans, face the facts and direct our anger against the officers of the SFA who have allowed this sham to develop into a catastrophe.
I have no doubt that my humble opinions expressed here will raise the ire of many deluded souls. However, I am comfortable in the knowledge that the only people who get mad at you for speaking the truth are those that are living a lie.
RIP Big Man.
Jim Spence has been treated appallingly.
We are now , if not in a fascist state, certainly in an Orwellian era of rewriting history and accepting truth as lies, as well as living in a culture of constant supervision and surveillance every bit as pervasive, if not as malign, as that of 1984.
Rangers has been identified as a necessity of Scottish life by those in power. All facets of the establishment will work to that end, and with that basic assumption. We should not expect the BBC to be any different. They will defend JS against the torrents of abuse that he has faced, but will not defend the logic and substance of his statement against the irrationality of those who attacked him.
And on a more positive if OT note:
Congratulations to Scotland last night. First time since Ally McLeod that we have an adventurous manager playing attacking football ( we lack a lot of raw talent and are not a great side by any means). This is a welcome change from decades of safety first mind numbing, if well organised and stuffy teams.
We can, unfortunately, expect the odd drubbing from top sides, and I do fear that at some point Gordy will come unstuck against the media we have in Scotland, when such events occur as, with the style he is adopting and the pool of players at his disposal, they must – from time to time.
arabest1 says:
September 10, 2013 at 11:29 pm
_________________________________________________________
I have registered my complaint.
The main reason for insisting Rfc* are the same entity as The Rfc* is to avoid acceptance of any guilt associated with their crimes. The club* is innocent of any cheating, they are whiter than Whyte a bad man
merely ruined the administration dept running the company associated with the club.
When the lady doth protest too much it is indicative that they know the truth, their level of outrage is relative
to the reality.They are well aware of the truth and the reality but to admit it is also to admit that for a decade they were cheating.This is an act of contrition to far for the supreme peoples council to swallow.
When Kim il Sung died in 1994 he was not replaced but instead awarded the title of eternal President
try telling the North Korean people that he died and was replaced by the son of Kim il Sung and they will be quick to say
Kim il Sung then , Kim il Sung now, Kim il Sung forever.
When can we expect an announcement from the BBC in regards their support of Spencey?
the herald ran it’s story of “apologising for any offence taken” by Sevconians 2 days ago, the “incident was 4 days ago
In the interim, Spencey has felt compelled to quit his job and been subject to a torrent of abuse.
Will the statement be one of support for their employee who has come under attack by twitter, email and text – and simply be offering the protection of an employee carrying out his job
Or will the statement be defending his statement as being factually correct and that they will be challenging the BBC Trusts earlier statement?
What do they support – the personal attacks or the opinion he aired? Or Both? And when will that support be publicly announced via the BBC?
TSFM says:
September 11, 2013 at 8:50 am
Not having a pop echobhoy, and I understand and agree with your general point, but that point falls over if there are inaccuracies in your rationale.
====================================================================
I don’t mind anyone having a pop at me including yourself 😆
It helps me reassess my position and sometimes alter it but I can’t do it on this occasion because I don’t know what point you are referring to. As to inaccuracies in rationale well I wouldn’t use the term ‘inaccuracies’ as I believe that the rationale applied by a thinking individual to any subject being questioned or under discussion is usually based on a complex interplay of their experiences, education, knowledge and the weight of opposing and supporting rationales advanced by others.
A mature rationale to me is the opposite of a closed mind and knee-jerk emotive utterances. Differences in the rationale held and employed by different individuals provide a fruitful area for the debate which sites like this thrive on. That debate often sparks ideas in those with open minds through exposure to genuinely held contrary viewpoints based on different rationales.
So even without knowing the specific post you refer to I am happy to hold my hands up and say that often my rationale is found wanting when exposed to public scrutiny. That doesn’t necessarily make it ‘incorrect’ and often it makes me dig much deeper into the issue under discussion and sometimes I have my rationale reinforced and other times shattered.
This is the ‘joy’ of posting on sites like this where, quite rightly, fellow posters aren’t slow in telling you why you have got it wrong and often advance a detailed rationale to support their point of view.
And long may it continue ❗
peteedin says: September 11, 2013 at 10:36 am
upthehoops says: September 11, 2013 at 7:20 am
Murdo MacLeod (Celtic); Richard Gordon (Aberdeen), Peter Houston (?), Willie Miller (Aberdeen). Derek Ferguson (Rangers), Billy Dodds (Rangers), Jim Spence (Dundee Utd), Gordon Smith (Rangers) Jim Traynor (Rangers), John Robertson (Hearts), Chic Young (St Mirren ), Craig Paterson (Rangers), Sandy Clark (Rangers), Graham Spiers (Rangers), Stuart Cosgrove (St Johnstone), Tam Cowan (Motherwell), Archie McPherson (Rangers), David Begg (Rangers), Paul Mitchell (Hearts), Liam McLeod (?), Dougie Donnelly (Rangers)
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A few quibbles with your list: Craig patterson is a Hibs man (3rd generation), Liam McLeod is an Aberdeen fan, and you could attribute David Begg to Hearts and you should also add Alan Preston (also Hearts?)
I am not sure how Celtic Murdo is, seem to remember he was a childhood Rangers fan – nothing agains the guy, he gave Celtic his all when he played for us & was one of my favourite players growing up, am just sayin’…
upthehoops says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:20 am
38 0 Rate This
Just had a look at the comments section in the Herald under the piece Graham Spiers did on Monday. There are the usual screams about the BBC being blatantly anti-Rangers. One contributor challenging that view listed every pundit who works / did work for them and their ‘main’ club association. It really does blow any accusation of anti-Rangers out the window. Here is the list – I have added a few others that were missed.
Murdo MacLeod (Celtic); Richard Gordon (Aberdeen), Peter Houston (?), Willie Miller (Aberdeen). Derek Ferguson (Rangers), Billy Dodds (Rangers), Jim Spence (Dundee Utd), Gordon Smith (Rangers) Jim Traynor (Rangers), John Robertson (Hearts), Chic Young (St Mirren 😆 ), Craig Paterson (Rangers), Sandy Clark (Rangers), Graham Spiers (Rangers), Stuart Cosgrove (St Johnstone), Tam Cowan (Motherwell), Archie McPherson (Rangers), David Begg (Rangers), Paul Mitchell (Hearts), Liam McLeod (?), Dougie Donnelly (Rangers)
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FYI I have it on fairly good authority that Peter Houston is a life long Celtic fan.
Another good article from James Forrest:
http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/the-fall-of-empires/
upthehoops says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:20 am
38 0 Rate This
Just had a look at the comments section in the Herald under the piece Graham Spiers did on Monday. There are the usual screams about the BBC being blatantly anti-Rangers. One contributor challenging that view listed every pundit who works / did work for them and their ‘main’ club association. It really does blow any accusation of anti-Rangers out the window. Here is the list – I have added a few others that were missed.
Murdo MacLeod (Celtic); Richard Gordon (Aberdeen), Peter Houston (?), Willie Miller (Aberdeen). Derek Ferguson (Rangers), Billy Dodds (Rangers), Jim Spence (Dundee Utd), Gordon Smith (Rangers) Jim Traynor (Rangers), John Robertson (Hearts), Chic Young (St Mirren ), Craig Paterson (Rangers), Sandy Clark (Rangers), Graham Spiers (Rangers), Stuart Cosgrove (St Johnstone), Tam Cowan (Motherwell), Archie McPherson (Rangers), David Begg (Rangers), Paul Mitchell (Hearts), Liam McLeod (?), Dougie Donnelly (Rangers)
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Eh? I thought Dougie Donnelly was famously one of ours? Unless his support for the Bully Wee is the same as Traynor’s support for Airdrie…..
Tell you what was good about the Scotland game last night – we took to the field with a front line comprised entirely of small, tricky players. We were deliberatelly forced into a passing game, as the big punt up to the physically strong forward wasn’t really an option, and whilst our ball retention could be better, we are slowly coming round to playing the sort passing game that proper teams play!
Anya looked pretty good – although I think we might want to avoid getting too hyperbolic about his performance – his final ball is still absolute mince for the most part.
But, hey, we look like a decent side. My only wish is that we would destroy teams when we have the chance. With all the chances that we messed up in the first half, I was expecting us to get hit with a sucker punch and lose it in our usual manner. Also, when we score, could we at least go looking for a 2nd goal? There’s a sort of air of ‘job done’ at 1-0. I’ll take the easy option and blame it on a hangover from the Levein ‘careful now!’ era.
To TSFM
I appreciate that you spend a lot of your own valuable time running the site (so understand if you wish to ignore the following suggestions) but I wondered if it would be worth having a “resources” section accessible via a new button at the top of the page in which could be stored template wording to cut and paste into e-mails/letters complaining to authorities/writing to newspapers etc (e.g. example wording of e-mails posters have been sending to BBC over Jim Spence have been posted here over the last couple of days and look useful for anyone else wanting to do the same). It might also be worth keeping posts such as the one a couple of days ago (possibly by Ecobhoy I think) which set out the details and timeline of transactions/securities entered into some of the big players behind the scenes at ibrox and which was obviously the result of a lot of research/detailed knowledge.
In case anyone thinks it’s a good idea to contact the supporters trust/s of their own club with an introductory note about TSFM to raise the profile of the blog I have copied some suggested wording below which could be adapted and certainly improved upon. I have also copied below suggested wording for people to adapt as they like to send to their own clubs should they wish to complain about what’s going on. This sort of thing might also be usefully saved in a “resources” section of the blog to make it easily accessible.
As I said above please TSFM don’t take offence by these suggestions as i know you must spend a lot of your time on the site already.
Thanks
Introductory e-mail/letter to supporters trusts:
As you will know, Rangers football club were placed in liquidation in 2012 as a result of failure to pay massive debts accrued over a period of many years of dominance in Scottish football.
Supporters of your club are being asked to believe (by both the media and football authorities) that the outfit currently calling itself “Rangers” (a company formed in 2012 as “Sevco 5088 which subsequently changed its name to “The Rangers football club limited”) is the same club with the same list of trophies as the club that went bust in 2012, leaving behind millions in unpaid debts and taxes. A large number of these trophies were won at the expense of clubs who lived within their means whilst Rangers spent money they couldn’t afford. Check the website of the SPFL 1 and you will see that “Rangers” foundation date is given as 1872, and lists 54 league titles, among various other trophies. In other words the truth has been conveniently overlooked. This is an insult to anyone who pays good money to follow other Scottish clubs, which don’t have a lengthy honours list, but have lived within their means.
For further information and discussion see the Scottish football monitor at http://www.sfmonitor.org. This is a forum for supporters of all clubs whose motivation is that the Scottish game should be run in a fair, transparent way and that the rules of the game and laws of the land should not be simply ignored for the benefit of one club.”
Letter to clubs:
Dear [ ]
I am a season ticket holder [ regular attendee] at [insert name of club]. I am extremely concerned that the outfit calling itself “Rangers” currently playing in SPFL1 is being portrayed officially by other clubs, the football authorities and the media as the same club with the same history and honours as Rangers football club PLC, a company which was placed in liquidation in 2012 leaving behind millions in unpaid debt and taxes. I will refuse to tacitly accept this lie by paying my hard earned money to attend any game involving this new entity unless and until it is officially acknowledged by the Scottish footballing authorities in all official publications including websites and fixture lists that the current club was formed in 2012, is called “The Rangers” and currently has one third division title to its name. In the absence of this change of approach I will not be buying any season ticket that includes games against “Rangers” and would suggest that a new category of season ticket is made available which doesn’t include games against “Rangers” and has an appropriate price reduction. For the avoidance of doubt the use of the word “The” in the name of this club is essential in order for a distinction to be made between it and the football club called “Rangers” which is listed on the SPFL website has having been was formed in 1872 but which was dissolved in 2012.
I look forward to hearing from you.”
BTW ecobhoy – going back to your response to my post about the current spate of driving related offence alledgedly perpetrated by Celtic players & staff. I wasn’t suggesting that footballers should not obey the same rules as others and i do not minimise the danger posed by uninsured drivers (in terms of compensation I guess), only that i noted there was a few of these accusations recently and they may not be best use of resources – Lennon’s “using a phone whilst driving” accusation failed as “the judge accepted an argument from Lennon’s solicitor that the Crown failed to provide the evidence necessary to convict him” and I would be interested to know what evidence they have in the Izzy case, which would seem on the face of it, even more nebulous.
That said, Alan Thompson’s drink driving convictions were instrumental in highlighting his own personal problems, and were seemingly a factor in Celtic and him parting company.
As discussed tit for tat
See page 25 onwards – http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/appeals/esc_bulletins/2013/apr_may.pdf
“The complainant said that BBC Scotland has a list of approximately 30 regular
presenters and pundits, almost all of whom are not just pro any other team but
are vociferously anti-Rangers. The complainant did not feel that this situation
demonstrated fairness or balance.”
“The Committee noted the complainant’s concern about anti-Rangers bias by BBC Scotland
and the choice of presenters and pundits during debates about matters related to Rangers
FC. The Committee agreed with the SESA that, on the points where the complainant had
not provided specific examples of output which could be tested against the Guidelines the
BBC had already provided an adequate and proportionate response.”
Allan Preston’s name was missing from the BBC list, ex-Hearts and St Johnstone and a massive jambo.
See someone beat me to it.
Dougie Donnelly has been regularly seen in the Ibrox directors box over the years. Not doubting he has a soft spot for Clyde.
theoldshed says:
September 11, 2013 at 12:37 pm
It’s a noble attempt, but unless you can persuade every other fan in the country to join in, then it will come to nothing.
I tried the same with Clyde – they didn’t even bother to respond. Still, it means I’m £150 richer than I was this time last year…..
theoldshed says:
September 11, 2013 at 12:37 pm
… Supporters of your club are being asked to believe (by both the media and football authorities) that the outfit currently calling itself “Rangers” (a company formed in 2012 as “Sevco 5088 which subsequently changed its name to “The Rangers football club limited”) is the same club with the same list of trophies as the club that went bust in 2012, leaving behind millions in unpaid debts and taxes.
———————————–
A small point, but if you’re going to go into the fine details, it’s better to be accurate.
It was Sevco SCOTLAND that later became TRFCL.
(Sevco 5088 was the company originally granted the right to buy the old club’s assets, but for reasons never fully explained (probably connected with ‘shafting’ Craig Whyte), they were purchased instead by Sevco Scotland, a separate company.
Personally, I’m not keen on template complaint letters, although I agree some guidance may be useful. I think it’s better for each complaint to be expressed in the writer’s own words, otherwise it looks like an artificially orchestrated campaign.
A bit out of date but here is the entry in Wiki for Sportsound
Presenters
Richard Gordon (host of most live matches; sometimes works as a commentator)
Dougie Vipond (host when Richard Gordon is unavailable or commentating)
Annie McGuire (host of midweek shows and Friday ‘Footloose’ edition)
Kenny MacIntyre (host of midweek shows)
Kheredine Idessane (a further host of the midweek shows)
Jim Spence (a host, formerly of the now defunct 90 Minutes – which was replaced by the weekday Sportsound)
Stephen Craigan (co-host of The Pitch on Sportsound on Tuesday evenings)
Jack Ross (co-host of The Pitch on Sportsound on Tuesday evenings)
Commentators/reporters[edit source
David Begg (main commentator)
John Barnes
Paul Mitchell (also works for Sportscene and Match of the Day)
Scott Davie
Liam McLeod
Rob MacLean
Kheredine Idessane
Alisdair Lamont
Jim Spence (generally games at Dundee)
Chick Young
Bill Leckie (generally covers Scottish Football League matches)
Jane Lewis
Dougie Vipond
Charlie Mann
Martin Dowden
Sandra Brown (generally Queen of the South matches)
David McDaid
Charles Bannerman (generally games in the Highlands)
Brian McLauchlin
Analysts
Sandy Clark
Steve Cowan
Jim Duffy
Derek Ferguson
Stephen Frail
Brian Irvine
Des McKeown
Murdo MacLeod (generally Celtic games)
Craig Paterson
Allan Preston
John Robertson
Gordon Smith
Jim Traynor (not an in-match analyst, host of “Your Call”)
Scott Booth
Billy Dodds
In addition, managers or assistant managers of Scottish Premier League clubs can be heard as “guest” analysts, especially for Sunday games.
Pitchside reporters
Chick Young
Chris McLaughlin
Both reporters also provide reports for Sportscene.
Former commentators
Alasdair Alexander
David Francey
Donald Garden
Derek Rae
Jock Brown
Former presenters
Brian Majoribanks
Tom Ferrie
Derek Rae
Roy Small
ANOTHER EXPLOSIVE PIECE BY MR SPIERS, YAWNNNNNNNNN.
Scottish football remains poisoned by the continuing fall-out over the liquidation of Rangers WHY? last year. Bitterness and venom are spouting forth in ways the game has scarcely known north of the border. STICK TO YOUR GOLF SHOW, IF YOURE NOT GOING TO CHALLENGE ANY OF THESE ISSUES AND STOP REGURGITATING WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW, SERIOULSY YOURE WORK IS TEDIOUS AT BEST!
The context of Spence and the BBC will have to be worked out separately. In recent months, the BBC Trust set out guidelines for referring to “old” and “new” Rangers, and held that the BBC in Scotland had failed to be precise in this. WHY IS THIS? DO A PIECE OF PROPER JOURNALISTIC WORK ON THIS, ARE YOU CAPABLE?
But a wider point is more intriguing: are journalists, reporters and commentators really to be hounded for referring to the liquidated Rangers as “the old Rangers”? YES , UNLESS THEY WRITE THE TRUTH………….
There has been something sinister about the way Jim Spence has been treated, given that many would argue he merely stated the bleedin’ obvious. HAS THERE?, EXPAND ON YOUR VIEWS THE WORD “SINSTER”
“Perhaps” (MORE POWDER PUFF) Spence and Traynor, in their separate ways, were trying to be controversial or provocative in their remarks. In which case, controversy can have its place, just as it must also be counter-challenged, such as here.IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL CHALLENGING? SUCH AS HERE , DON’T MAKE ME LAUGH
It inevitably needs a phrase such as “old” or “oldco” or “original” Rangers or some such delineation. The very language, though, makes some Rangers fans livid. “NOT JUST SOME RANGERS FANS, TRY THE REST OF SCOTTISH FOOTBALL, MR SPIERS, YES A LINE IN THE SAND, TELL THE TRUTH AND WE CAN START TO MOVE ON.
It is proving a painful subject. Some have argued that it shouldn’t matter; that even for ardent Rangers supporters, the club is here, it plays at Ibrox, it has the same name, the same strip, the same lustre. Why, it has been asked, make such a song and dance? IS IT PROVING TO BE A PAINFUL SUBJECT TO YOU? WRITE THE TRUTH ABOUT IT THEN. RANGERS FANS CAN BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT , LETS SEE WHAT THEY BELIEVE WHEN THE TRUTH IS PRINTED , YOUR COMMENTS ABOVE SMACK OF A PHOENIX CLUB BUT THAT’S FOR OTHERS TO DECIDE (BDO, PERHAPS?)
But I’ve discovered (WHEN DID THIS OCCUR?), this won’t wash. For some Rangers fans it is an emotional agony to think of their precious club being dissolved last year – the notion is simply not for consideration. THAT’S RANGERS(IL) FAULT , NOT THE REST OF SCOTTISH FOOTBALLS
The famed phrase “it was the company, not the club, which went bust” was born roundabout the spring of 2012, when liquidation became a certainty, and has been clung to ever since by fans. BECAUSE CHURNALISTS LIKE YOURSELF ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN And hell mend anyone – and certainly any pesky hack – who dares to differ. WHY , BECAUSE OF FEAR AND INTIMADATION IF THIS IS WHAT YOU MEAN THEN SAY SO!
This has been a very painful experience for Rangers. And the venom and anger are showing no signs of abating. WHOS’S FAULT IS THIS THEN, AGAIN GO ON WRITE YOUR VIEW ON HOW YOU WOULD FIX IT OR WHO SHOULD BE FIXING IT, WRITE SOMETHING ABOUT WHY THE SFA ARE’NT PUTTING OUT ANY STATEMENTS ON THE SUBJECT, BETTER STILL PHONE NASA AND ASK IF YOU CAN BORROW THE HUBBLE TELESCOPE TO SEE IF YOU CAN LOCATE MR REGAN FOR ANY MEANINFUL COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT , THEN ONCE YOU HAVE GATHERED PROPER INFORMATION, PUT IT IN PRINT AND YOU MAY HAVE SOMETHING WORTH READING AND REGAIN SOME SORT OF CREDITABILITY AS JOURNASLIST .
timtim@12.16
A fine post.
At a time when analogies are as scarce as a scarce thing in a land of scarcity, your North Korean comparison is original and apt. ” Kim is dead (-ish) ; long live Kim “.
Away and have a word with yourselves, ya shower of deluded mentalists.
( not you, nice people of North Korea. You’re all lovely ).
BigGav says:
September 11, 2013 at 1:18 pm
3 0 Rate This
theoldshed says:
September 11, 2013 at 12:37 pm
———————————-
Cheers for the feedback and the correction. A good idea to get the details right as you say.
Do you think the BBC will be ordered to muffle it’s pitch side microphones when The Rangers get to the SPL. It would certainly cause offence if the entire home crowd at Cetlic park/Pittodrie/Tynecastle/Easter Road or wherever were to chant incessantly “You are new club – Old club’s dead club” to the chimes of Big Ben. Maybe games involving them will be broadcast with a digitally altered crowd noise.
p.s. .Rangersness = The state of being free from responsibilities but endowed with limitless rights
Am I missing something here?
Twenty-four hours after bemoaning Jim Spence’s treatment by the BBC, we seem to have started a subthread in which we try and determine which BBC presenter/pundit etc supports which team. I appreciate it has emanated from arrant nonsense from the Darkside about an anti-Rangers bias at BBC Scotland, but should we not be setting an example here in seeking a situation where all such individuals leave their personal allegiances to any team outside the doors of a BBC studio.
I hope Jim spence hasn’t been betrayed by his employers but I’ve come to expect exactly that.the message should be relayed to all through this forum and all other scottish football fan outlets that anyone who calls the bbc,s Saturday phone in should make their point but should also add and hammer home their disgust of the cowardice of the bbc bowing to nobody,s like Chris graham is unforgivable. Where are you twitterer s get tweeting.
Can anyone on this forum inform me when:
1. The SFA stated Rangers are the same club
2. UEFA stated Rangers are the same club
——————————————————-
The UEFA thing seems to be based on Rangers still appearing on club ranking list and accummulating national co-efficient points.
It can also be pointed out that FIFA list the 1990/1974 & 1954 World Cup winners as West Germany. FIFA records also indicate that East Germany and Zaire participated in the 1974 World Cup, as did the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia in 1982 but none of these states actually exist today.
Never mind that the UEFA club rankings list does not constitute a “statement”.
Any SFA “statements” have been contradictory and barely coherent.
A link was posted on here the other day to the Rangers Standard guy who boldly stated that “High Court Judges [plural]” have stated that they are the same club – so this is the level of delusion and denial we are dealing with
I think that the UEFA listing is for old Rangers, and as the years progress, their co-efficient will drop as the old club falls down the rankings.
theoldshed says:
September 11, 2013 at 1:40 pm
Do you think the BBC will be ordered to muffle it’s pitch side microphones when The Rangers get to the SPL.
+++++++++
It’s already happened as I recall: the Ibrox side’s boycott match at Tannadice in February had dumbed down crowd noises.
Anyway: to those who accuse many fans of being anti-The Rangers, I’d have to hold my hand up and say I’d be in the hostile category. And I think most supporters I know, if they have no Govan inclinations, absolutely abhor what Rangers brought and The Rangers bring to Scottish football. I can’t understand Ibrox fans who are upset at this notion: maybe someone can explain?
Personally I could not care what teams someone supported as a boy – their job is to comment without fear or favour – if they can leave their favouritism as soon as they start work, I am ok with that.
If they are like Archie or Arthur, where no one had a clue who they supported, then they are ok by me.
smartie1947 says:
September 11, 2013 at 1:44 pm
Hear what you say but I’d tend to argue the exact opposite.
For the type of programme run on Radio Scotland the knowledge that certain people on the shows support or have a soft spot for certain clubs actually improves the programme from an entertainement point of view.
We can laugh when one guy gets a ribbing my his fellow presenters for his teams failures, similarly we can sympathise when the same guy is in pain bemoaning a dreadful performance of his club as he can be seen to be a fan just like the rest of us.
Yes we expect a degree of professionalism and that a joke or tears don’t last too long or detract from the overall aim of the programmes and thats what I think we generally get.
The problem only really seems to arise when the talk turns to Rangers and, currently to a lesser degree, Celtic that fans seem to get on their high horses.
The rest of Scottish football are not afraid to celebrate, what Cosgrove and Cowan would refer to as, their ‘Diddyness’.
Exiledcelt @2.42
“If they are like Archie or Arthur, where no one had a clue” – what they were talking about !!!
smartie1947 says:
September 11, 2013 at 1:44 pm
21 0 Rate This
Am I missing something here?
Twenty-four hours after bemoaning Jim Spence’s treatment by the BBC, we seem to have started a subthread in which we try and determine which BBC presenter/pundit etc supports which team. I appreciate it has emanated from arrant nonsense from the Darkside about an anti-Rangers bias at BBC Scotland, but should we not be setting an example here in seeking a situation where all such individuals leave their personal allegiances to any team outside the doors of a BBC studio
—————————————————————————————————————–
I have always thought the up front partisan nature of Sportsound (Richard Gordon, John Robertson, Derek Ferguson, or Jim Spence) works well……….so long as its up front. If however you use…………let me think…………….. St Mirren or Airdrie as a cover and then steer the discussion away from scandals or even events that protect particular clubs and individuals or even steer the programme onto ‘agendas’ that suit particular clubs, then the partisanship becomes something else entirely….it becomes misinformation, disinformation and that is never a good thing.
borussiabeefburg says:
September 11, 2013 at 2:10 pm
I think that the UEFA listing is for old Rangers, and as the years progress, their co-efficient will drop as the old club falls down the rankings.
++++++++++++++++++
I believe this is the case as FC Unirea Urziceni are shown as being ranked 97th, even though they haven’t played a match in two years due to their dissolution in 2011.
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/single/?p=12465985&t=8837773
http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/markets-economy/aberdeen-asset-falls-foul-of-tax-tribunal-over-its-7m-scheme-tax-avoidance-scheme-falls-foul-of-the-tribunal-1.1083671
“A tax avoidance scheme worth £7 million used by Aberdeen Asset Management to pay bonuses to seven senior employees, including chief executive Martin Gilbert and former director Chris Fishwick, has fallen foul of the first-tier tax tribunal.
Aberdeen used a discounted options scheme (DOS) created by accountants HLB Kidsons, now Baker Tilly, to remunerate directors between 2000 and 2003, but in 2007 it was challenged by HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC).”
jockybhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 12:41 pm
I’m afraid the long delay in your response means you have missed the boat on this one with me – the world and the blog moves on I’m afraid. I also have no real interest in responding to a post cataloguing a list of old driving issues naming football players of any team. I would also caution you about describing a criminal prosecution against anyone as ‘nebulous’ if you are unaware of the strength of the evidence or even lack of it.
borussiabeefburg says:
September 11, 2013 at 2:10 pm
I think that the UEFA listing is for old Rangers, and as the years progress, their co-efficient will drop as the old club falls down the rankings.
——
You may expect that as the logical path. And it’s bound to happen for the next few years because the new Rangers won’t be in Europe. By the time they get back, their club coefficient will be miniscule as it’s based on the previous 5 seasons.
However, I refer everyone once again to Budapest Honved. Their “History” page on the UEFA website runs from 1956 to the present season.
They are currently, as previously mentioned here, a completely different company/club (delete as applicable) to the one which participated in European competition pre-2004.
I foresee huge wailings and dental gnashing if/when Rangers get into Europe and it is discovered that their UEFA history includes that of the Old Rangers. And it will, mark my words.
The UEFA coefficients represent what happened at a precise moment in time.
Rangers earned coefficient points when they played in European competition. That contributed to the Scottish national coefficient. The points earned by all participating clubs over the last 5 years go to make up the rankings , and would be used by a club , which has never played in Europe before.
So for example if Partick Thistle win the cup this year, they will be given the Scottish National coefficent. Where they start in European qualifying will be down to the previous efforts over the last 5 years of Scottish Clubs.
Rangers are not eligible for UEFA competition for another 2 seasons, and even if they were eligible for next season they would be given the same coefficient as Thistle. The link at the bottom of this post shows that this is currently 3.213 and therfore any Scottish Club who havent earned their own coefficent points would be given this. It is coincidentally one place below Cliftonville.
Unirea Urziceni, who famously beat Rangers (under Walter Smith) 4-1 , now no longer exist in any form. They dissolved and there was no Tribute Act or New Club/ Old Club scenario. They do however still feature on the UEFA rankings and in fact are currently shown as 98th in Europe above Swansea and Wigan amongst others. The other anomaly is they still are attributed the Rumanian average coefficent since their demise . The reason for this is that the National coefficients do not tally if you remove a club who earned points , but are now no longer.
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2014.html
peteedin says:
September 11, 2013 at 10:36 am
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upthehoops says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:20 am
Just had a look at the comments section in the Herald under the piece Graham Spiers did on Monday. There are the usual screams about the BBC being blatantly anti-Rangers. One contributor challenging that view listed every pundit who works / did work for them and their ‘main’ club association. It really does blow any accusation of anti-Rangers out the window. Here is the list – I have added a few others that were missed.
Murdo MacLeod (Celtic); Richard Gordon (Aberdeen), Peter Houston (?), Willie Miller (Aberdeen). Derek Ferguson (Rangers), Billy Dodds (Rangers), Jim Spence (Dundee Utd), Gordon Smith (Rangers) Jim Traynor (Rangers), John Robertson (Hearts), Chic Young (St Mirren ), Craig Paterson (Rangers), Sandy Clark (Rangers), Graham Spiers (Rangers), Stuart Cosgrove (St Johnstone), Tam Cowan (Motherwell), Archie McPherson (Rangers), David Begg (Rangers), Paul Mitchell (Hearts), Liam McLeod (?), Dougie Donnelly (Rangers)
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A few quibbles with your list: Craig patterson is a Hibs man (3rd generation), Liam McLeod is an Aberdeen fan, and you could attribute David Begg to Hearts and you should also add Alan Preston (also Hearts?)
——————————————————————————-
Re the list of alleged allegiances…
These people do not operate in a vacuum where they can just say what they like and therefore their public utterances are not necessarily dictated by personaly loyalty and/or opinion. Ask Jim Spence about that.
It is widely regarded that Murdo McLeod was a Rangers supporter prior to signing for Celtic – as was Kenny Dalglish, Danny McGrain and Davie Provan. This is not easily verifiable as100% fact but widely accepted. Therefore, with this knowledge, in theory it would be much easier for Murdo McLeod to take a critical view of Celtic which he has many times throughout his career. This is not to say he is not being fair and balanced.
But the over-riding factor is not personal allegiance but the prevailing culture an individual operates in. All this ‘he’s a Rangers man, he’s a Celtic man’ talk is a smokescreen. Murdo McLeod and Andy Walker are regular critics of Celtic in public forum. Have you ever heard Derek Johnstone or Mark Hateley being anything other than slabbering cheerleaders let alone publically critical of Rangers? If you have I’ve missed it, as I miss all their content these days.
For whatever reason – a combination of personal allegiance, a concerted Jack Irvine PR machine driving the agenda, an economic reality of pandering to national demographics – it leads to a prevailing culture where criticising Celtic and praising Rangers is easy but helmets must be worn to do the opposite. At this point, simple human nature will kick in where people don’t need the hassle and/or are happy to line their pockets regurgitating Media House trash.
People can then point to Murdo McLeod, Andy Walker and then say “well they’re Celtic men” when spinning the party line like the rest – just like it was a black judge who oversaw the Rodney King trial giving a superficial veil of credibility. I have agreed to disagree with many on this forum but I fail to see how an individual or organisation that is Pro-Rangers can simultaneously be Pro-Celtic (see J.Irvine’s placing of negative stories about our rivals) which explains a lot of what is seen in the Scottish media currently.
By the way, I happen to find Archie McPherson the most impartial football commentator in Scottish football and rather think he’s a bit hard done by with his Only an Excuse parody in sharp contrast to one or two others who have been lampooned on that programme.
So what happens now…wrt Jim Spence ‘support’ ?
Does the BBC – and the rest of the MSM – just keep their heads down and let the TRFC newco/oldco issue blow over…until the next time the TRFC fans are ‘outraged’ when a factually correct statement is made which they just don’t like ?
The silence from both the SFA – and TRFC itself – is deafening.
I have not seen any condemnation from TRFC, [unless I missed it], so does the club condone their fans’ behaviour towards Jim Spence ?
The SFA’s mute leadership continues to be pathetic.
If the MSM ‘journalists’ wanted to show support for Spence, then now could be the time to ask simple questions of the SFA – repeatedly – until they get answers.
Like:
“To avoid becoming the target for distressing, personal abuse when reporting on Scottish football, how are journalists supposed to refer to TRFC ? Is it the same club from 1872, or is it a new club ?”
23. borussiabeefburg says:
September 11, 2013 at 2:10 pm
I think that the UEFA listing is for old Rangers, and as the years progress, their co-efficient will drop as the old club falls down the rankings.
—————–
Exactly. The only points they are picking up are the 20 or whatever % is earned from the national co-efficient through the ongoing performances of other – actually existing – Scottish clubs. Eventually they will drop off the radar along with Whyte’s billions
StevieBC says:
September 11, 2013 at 3:47 pm
If the MSM ‘journalists’ wanted to show support for Spence, then now could be the time to ask simple questions of the SFA – repeatedly – until they get answers.
Like:
“To avoid becoming the target for distressing, personal abuse when reporting on Scottish football, how are journalists supposed to refer to TRFC ? Is it the same club from 1872, or is it a new club ?”
————————
the answer to that is simple, to avoid getting abuse….say it’s the same club. Doesn’t matter if its true or not, but anything OTHER than that mantra will leave you open to abuse.
that doesn’t resolve the issue
You think the SFA are going to make a statement that puts them in the firing line when they can easily leave it to hacks to get slaughtered?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
September 11, 2013 at 3:56 pm
StevieBC says:
September 11, 2013 at 3:47 pm
…
You think the SFA are going to make a statement that puts them in the firing line when they can easily leave it to hacks to get slaughtered?
============================
Agreed, I do like to be optimistic some times.
However, it would be depressing if the MSM journalists simply refused to at least ask the question of the SFA.
IMO, if the journalists do not follow up the treatment of Jim Spence with the SFA at least, then there has been no progress since RTC started his/her blog over 2 years ago : to highlight and query information which the Scottish MSM simply refused to touch.
Meant to add to my half baked post above….
What I do object to is ex-players who are writing “their” opinions in the red tops who produce illiterate nonsense – and then we find out they are on the payroll of said club as PR/media employees.
Mark Hately and Derek Johnstone to name but two – am sure Jack has others on his payroll
I think we have to be aware that Journalists wont write an article saying ” we asked, they didnt tell”
I had a DM from a prominent Scottish Journalist who assured me he and others were persistant in asking the SFA why the transfer window was closing early in Scotland compared to most of Europe. The SFA just point blank refused to answer. At some point the story moves on, and there is no point in the journalists keeping asking .
When the story is bigger, such as the role played by Campbell Ogilvie and the SFA, then the journalists will continue to ask , and very probably continue to be stonewalled
33. StevieBC says:
September 11, 2013 at 3:47 pm
Stevie, We already know the SFA answer – ‘We regard Rangers as a continuation of the club’. Effectively they’ve released a statement that means, appropriately, SFA!
A ‘continuation’?!? It means that Rangers fans can go ‘see, we ‘re no a new club’, and non-rangers fans will go ‘Why not just say they’re the same club? Why even acknowledge that there’s something to be continued as such?’. People will take from it what they want…… or rather The Peepil will take from it what they want. The rest of us seem better placed to spot the ambigious wording that means that it amounts to nothing.
Despite the lack of a definitive statement from the football authorities, I think we all need to remember that the only thing the SFA/SPL/SFL/SPFL have had to do OFFICIALLY in respect to the new club/old club issue is placing them in cup competitions. The season before they were put into liquidation, Rangers finished second in the SPL, which meant that they would be exempted from the early rounds of relevant cup competitions during the subsequent season.
TRFC played in the early rounds of all competitions in their first season playing under the auspices of the SFA. If they were OFFICIALLY the same club, that wouldn’t have happened.
That is the OFFICIAL statement from the SFA, as far as I am concerned. That they are now unwilling to confirm that official view, either because they are afraid of an angry reaction from the fans or because they are genuinely worried that cash will be lost to the game because the fans will refuse to follow a new club (even if it walks like a duck!) casts great shame on them.
http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?t=974589 slowly they are starting to get the threat to the club if they aren’t getting the deceased part
Aye, lots of interesting speculation in the twittersphere today, even on TRFC sites, regarding what a Sevco admin will look like.
Any wise heads here who can see how this admin would work, since the only real creditors appear to be inside the club … er … company? Or have I missed a loan shark or two more? The players contracts along with the staff would have to be re-negogiated I take it. Of course, a fire sale of players such as Wallace, Tempelton, and so on, could maybe bring in enough to see out the season?
But I just don’t see the logic in the likes of the Easdales buying shares, along with this Isle of Man company, if the project could be about to run out of moolah. Is another cash injection from the Far East on the cards, via the usual ‘verbal agreements’?
Barcabhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 4:28 pm
I think we have to be aware that Journalists wont write an article saying ” we asked, they didnt tell”
I had a DM from a prominent Scottish Journalist who assured me he and others were persistant in asking the SFA why the transfer window was closing early in Scotland compared to most of Europe. The SFA just point blank refused to answer. At some point the story moves on, and there is no point in the journalists keeping asking .
When the story is bigger, such as the role played by Campbell Ogilvie and the SFA, then the journalists will continue to ask , and very probably continue to be stonewalled
===================================================================
But if everyone subject to press interest refused to comment then the ultimate logic is that no stories would appear other than those provided by PR companies on behalf of their clients. The brutal truth is that if you are an ordinary guy or gal without power the press will gut you and make-up your comments from a ‘source close to’ or a ‘relative’. And on the odd occasion if questioned as to the identity of the actually fictitious source then the protection of sources excuse is trotted out.
Don’t get me wrong it is a paramount principle that certain sources must be protected in the public interest but not the imagined ones that exist only in a journo’s imagination.
Journalists write stories all the time where the main party only gives a ‘No Comment’. I read plenty of stories about the Scottish transfer window dates but I don’t remember seeing any which stated that the SFA refused to comment in fact I seem to remember their ‘Saturday is a normal business day’ quote getting extensive coverage as a fig leaf for rabbits.
I’m afraid the SMSM in general put more effort into finding excuses not to print stories than growing a pair and telling it as it is.
And I don’t believe for one second that CO is being asked any question by the SMSM other than whether he enjoyed his holidays 😆
andygraham.66 says:
September 11, 2013 at 5:50 pm
http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?t=974589 slowly they are starting to get the threat to the club if they aren’t getting the deceased part
===============================================================
Timescale seems to agree with what has been posted here by our spreadsheet wizards. Their accountant seems to have missed the £1.5 million though which is shown as income from SportsDirect via Rangers Retail which is actually a draw-down loan.
TRFC share price down to 50p. 7% drop!
Barcabhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 4:28 pm
————————-
I disagree BB!
Everyday in the news I hear or read stories where a central character refuses to make a statement and it is clearly stated that this person or organisation refused to give a comment.
The known facts of the case are presented, the supporting data or evidence so far is shared and the viewers or readers are left to make their own assumptions based on the “no comment”.
There were many trees chopped down due to the transfer window in Scotland not being extended and I didn’t see one single instance of any reporter mentioning coming up against a brick wall when attempting to speak with The SFA, there is no reason why they would not mention that, no reason at all.
I believe the communication on this subject from The SFA was extremely poor (this coming from a person who supported the decision), but I cannot accept that not one journalist, reporter or pundit who had the right and means to question this, informed their customers that The SFA refused to cooperate.
ringostar says:
September 11, 2013 at 6:29 pm
3 0 Rate This
———-
Ringo! Where have you been?
“They never give you their money, they only give you their funny paper” 🙂
Madbhoy24941 says:
September 11, 2013 at 6:52 pm
Correct.
In the world of daytime consumer affairs TV programes and early evening ones such as Watchdog and Rogue Traders the presenter’s issuing of the words that a company ‘refused to take part or refused to comment’ is universally taken as being a nod and a wink to the audience that the ‘perpetrators’ are at it 🙂
RE the old/new issue with Sevco; in reference to John McClelland, for example, what’s wrong with saying the following;
“John McClelland, former chairman of Rangers Football Club PLC, who, it is being suggested by some, could soon be on the board of The Rangers Football Club Ltd”.
Its merely stating a fact isn’t it ? No mention of Old, or New, etc… if anyone challenges this, or complains, it can be pointed out that people are Board members of Companies, and they are separate companies, called Rangers Football Club PLC, and The Rangers Football Club Ltd. Personally, I find it hugely amusing that the companies have the name Club in their name, and are therefore 2 completely separate Clubs.
I’d love to see anyone in the MSM print a simple fact such as this… mind you, its getting a bit late in the year for gardening leave 🙂
nostarsandbarred says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:11 pm
I was under the impression that John McLelland was being put forward as a potential Chairman of Rangers International Football Club PLC. As you say that is not actually The Rangers Football Club Ltd, it is an entirely separate entity which happens to own TRFC Ltd.
The nearest comparison to the PLC (holding company) is the relationship between MIH and the old Rangers. The holding company which owned the football club.
It is deliberately convoluted and is why they use the names they do to sew confusion.
MIH was the holding company Rangers International PLC is the holding company.
Rangers PLC was the old club, Rangers Ltd is the new club.
Oh dear
The way finances are heading at sevco I can see the baby bears having to forego their wish lists for xmas ,again, they way its going they will be getting another tranche of shares ,all be it ,not identical to the ones santa brought last xmas ,just a slight difference but hey its for a good cause,and just keep them at opposite ends of the mantlepiece and no one will notice,you know I just have this feeling that Charles on a big whyte horse is going to ride back into town ,soon.
BB
And I don’t believe for one second that CO is being asked any question by the SMSM other than whether he enjoyed his holidays
——————————————————————————————————————
But he is a really nice man according to Mr Young. It would not be fair to ask him awkward questions about his beloved club and it’s demise.
Maybe the man sevco fans refer to as the anti Christ (Mr Lawell) might bring up the subject over coffee with Mr Ogilvie in the happy home that is Hampden.
With some luck maybe the BBC will push the subject that Mr Spence seemed to be reviled for. Someone once said “you cannot handle the truth”. Why is the truth on this issue so avoided by the SMSM. Still the worry of social unrest? When will this deid club be able to finally rest.
Angus1983 says:
September 11, 2013 at 3:40 pm
The circumstances of Honved and Rangers are not quite the same.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/may/10/sport.comment3
FIFA says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:31 pm
If the PLC is to survive, and still own and operate the new football club, I full expect another share issue and have said it before. I simply do not see wher the necessary income will come from otherwise. Unless of course a new “sugar daddy” comes along and provides them with expensive borrowing facilities.
However it is by no means a certainty that the PLC will continue as owner of the football club.
theoldshed 12.37pm
________________
I think ‘theoldshed’s’ idea regarding complaints to the media, and the idea of a resource button at the top of the page to help amateurs, like myself, post a half decent complaint to the remiss media.
Last evening I attempted to complain to the BBC re Jim Spence, using a template provide by one of our contributors. Before I got to the substance of my complaint I was stymied by the info required before I could proceed to the body of the complaint. i.e. the time of the program, the panel etc etc.
If the resource button provided the full background details of the offending program, or newspaper article I think ‘theoldshed’s’ idea would be a very important weapon in our armoury in trying to battle the establishment’s mouthpieces.
PS I gave up my attempt at complaining as I could not access the info required.
Wottpi and Madbhoy
I dont think we can make those comparisons. A journalist on rogue trader has no need for a future relationship with the Rogues
A journalist in Scotland needs working relationships with key people in clubs, leagues and associations. If every time and on every subject there is a refusal to comment, even off the record, then the journo will say this relationship is worth nothing , and at that point may let loose with both barrels. The journo has a judgement to make tho, if the contact is generally helpful and only on occasion will say nothing
We all have information or views we can’t or don’t want to put into the public arena. Clubs , Leagues and Associations are no differen. On the Rangers issues, difficult as they are , the SFA have been appalling . This is the biggest administrative issue in the History of the game here, and they have blown it at every turn. They have done nobody any favours by their approach, not even Rangers.
If they had insisted on an SFA review rather than the LNS SPL instructed slap on the wrist, then we would be over this now. The reason so many people get emotional over the New Club / Old Club argument in my view is because LNS handed down an absolutely derisory sentence
That is all probability because given the way the enquiry was framed and questions set and witnesses picked, he couldnt do much else.
If that enquiry had been properly scoped, then Rangers would be minus a number of titles, and deservedly so. The Rangers fans would have been outraged, everyone else from other clubs on the whole would have felt justice done, and we wouldn’t be discussing Club status
The SFA allowed a whitewash to be perpetrated. Thats their biggest crime, and its a long list to choose from.
As an aside, those with a good memory will remember CF’s list of those who would benefit by his/her disappearance.
Neil Doncaster x 100, if I remember the wording. I think we can take a pretty good guess as to why that is.
Finally back to Journo’s
There are only 2 biggish selling daily papers in Scotland, Record/Sun, although at the current rate of convergence the Daily Mail could catch both of them in less than 18 months. The Herald & Scotsmans readership is not majorly affected by the position they adopt of whether to be tough on Rangers or not. However there is a window for someone else to grab some market share in tabloid land , if they decided to go after the TSFM, RTC, CQN audience.
Lets say the Star, humour me for a second . Decided to hire a decent investigative Sports journo and let him loose with a mission to do what the Bampots have been doing for 5 years. If they could get it published then going from 50000 at present to 100,000 wouldn’t be impossible. That brings lots of added Advertising Revenue as well as significantly more hard copy sales revenue
I know many people wouldnt buy the Star because they see it as sleazy, however it could easily be the Express who currently sell 54,000.
The reason , in my view, that none of the titles have gone down this road, isn’t some kind of protective instinct towards Rangers. It’s because firstly they couldnt publish a lot of the stuff the Bampots speculate about, and get right ultimately. Secondly they would have no relationship with Rangers at any level and other clubs would also be wary of them turning on them.
I have quite a lot of sympathy with journalists. I have no sympathy with Editors, who are the ones who make the decisions on a commercial basis, as well as other criteria. Most journo’s just want a good story, although some can legitimately be accused of being propagandists for a particular club.
Standard response from Spivs to being outed is, thats not true, here’s my lawyer, publish and i’ll sue. In circumstances like that you have to have absolute proof, and the first thing a Spiv does is go into Covert mode
There can be many legitimate accusations thrown at the MSM over Rangers, and continue to be so. However there are good people in their Industry. You can’t judge them all by Traynor and Keevins
Barcabhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:55 pm
A journalist in Scotland needs working relationships with key people in clubs, leagues and associations.
————————————————————-
Journalists took the succulent lamb from the now dead club in what was a symbiotic relationship; They helped smear those who spoke out against the reckless spending on moonbeams and they media housed the other clubs when it was deemed necessary.
Any journalist brave enough to speak out was delambed.
With the death of Rangers, the worm turned when Sevco needed to sell those season tickets,
This dead club/same club nonsense, and all the other controversies could have been kicked into the long grass if our fourth estate had the courage to do what it is morally obliged to – tell the truth. But still they pander to the blue.
It’s shamefully not a surprise that the list of wrongs by both the Ibrox clubs will never be fully reported in this country (until Phil Mac’s next book).
senior says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:50 pm
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The medium is radio.
The programme is Sportsound.
Leave the exact date blank.
Section 4 of the BBC’s Editorial Guidelines deals with bias and similar.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/
macfurgly says:
September 11, 2013 at 8:35 pm
re: senior says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:50 pm
———————
The medium is radio.
The programme is Sportsound.
Leave the exact date blank.
===============================
actually the programme was Sportsound Extra
the date was Saturday 7th Sept 2013
the programme time was 5:30pm
Dougie Donnelly is a Clyde fan.
From a Scotsman interview:
You’re a self-declared Clyde supporter, but some people insist that your real allegiance is to Rangers. What would you say to disabuse them?
Anybody who supports any team outside the Old Firm gets that – it stems from a kind of arrogance that some Old Firm supporters have. “You’re a Dundee United fan – but are you a Dundee United fan who supports Rangers or a Dundee United fan who supports Celtic?”
I’ve been a Clyde fan since I was a kid living in Rutherglen and my grandad took me to Shawfield. I’ve got the cheque-book stubs to prove I’m a Clyde fan.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/dougie-donnelly-slams-scottish-government-over-sacking-1-1074484
Broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 8:20 pm
3 0 Rate This
Barcabhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:55 pm
A journalist in Scotland needs working relationships with key people in clubs, leagues and associations.
————————————————————-
Journalists took the succulent lamb from the now dead club in what was a symbiotic relationship; They helped smear those who spoke out against the reckless spending on moonbeams and they media housed the other clubs when it was deemed necessary.
—————–
Agree with that, there were a number around 4 or 5 , who embarassed themselves and their profession over Murray
I dont know enough about the motivations of others to include them in this group
Barcabhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:55 pm
Hear what you say but don’t totally buy that.
Paxman Humphries Question Time etc rely on relationships with politicians so that they keep coming back but that doesn’t stop them badgering and being down right rude.
Tom English called Green for what he was and didn’t seem to be too worried about being frozen out of Ibrox. Of course he can do a bit more than repeat ‘over the moon’ quotes.
At the end of the day its about managing the situation in a way that you can have a go at them but at the same time those in power have to come back to get their story across or gain some publicity for this initiative or the other at some point.
The point is that no-one has had the cajones to really have a go at Ogilvie, Regan or Doncaster who have apparenlty been living in a cave for the last year and a half apart from the odd sighting.
Therefore without any challenge whatsoever these guys go on unhindered and as such are unaccountable to the paying customer who is the same man who pays his license fees and buys the papers.that pays the wages of the cowardly reporters.
The only place the man oin the street has to ask the really hard questions is on here and simialr sites and then it is only to each other. It is the reporters and the likes who actually have the access to the authorities and they do very little to make them accountable to the rest of us.
Therefore why be surprised when we put most of them together on the same stinking ship?
spurtle says:
September 11, 2013 at 8:49 pm
——
Ta.
Jagsman says:
September 11, 2013 at 8:50 pm
================================
Dougie Donnelly spends a quite incredible amount of time in the Ibrox Director’s Box for a Clyde fan.
Barcabhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:55 pm
A journalist in Scotland needs working relationships with key people in clubs, leagues and associations.
———
If they all speak out, the fear disappears. Now is the time for them to do it: to stand up for one of their own, for their own sense of worth, for truth and for journalism. Spence has forced the issue, they can no longer look away. Who will have the courage to speak first?
Barcabhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 8:53 pm
Agree with that, there were a number around 4 or 5 , who embarassed themselves and their profession over Murray
I dont know enough about the motivations of others to include them in this group
====================================================================
I was 25 years old when David Murray took his seat in the Ibrox Boardroom. From then until the Internet became freely available I read and heard nothing other than words amounting to the following;
1. Murray was a business genius
2. Rangers were the biggest and richest club in Britain
3. Celtic would never challenge Rangers again
4. Celtic were a poorly organised and managed club compared to Rangers
As a Celtic fan it was utter torture to live through what we now know were utter lies. It was not just 4 or 5 people who wreaked this carnage on us. 90% of the Scottish Sporting media were guilty.
ecobhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 6:19 pm
http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?t=974589 slowly they are starting to get the threat to the club if they aren’t getting the deceased part
===============================================================
Timescale seems to agree with what has been posted here by our spreadsheet wizards. Their accountant seems to have missed the £1.5 million though which is shown as income from SportsDirect via Rangers Retail which is actually a draw-down loan.
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That financial breakdown looks to have been posted by Mark Dingwall himself and he would only put that out with the nod from someone inside Ibrox.
This is just another part of the ”plan”
I see it in a different light:
For someone alleged to be a Rangers fan, Donnelly spends a lot of time helping Clyde FC.
But then as I am a Thistle fan, I have no problem believing that people from Glasgow don’t necessarily support one of the cheeks.
http://www.cumbernauld-news.co.uk/sport/launch-of-clyde-supporters-trust-1-355156
http://www.rutherglenreformer.co.uk/rutherglen-sport/local-rutherglen-sport/2012/05/23/football-clyde-fc-golf-day-riases-10-000-63227-31024470/
https://www.facebook.com/clydefootballclub/posts/560323280666364
Barcabhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 7:55 pm
A journalist in Scotland needs working relationships with key people in clubs, leagues and associations.
————————————————————-
I would agree that a ‘working relationship’ is fine but the journo isn’t in that relationship to represent the interests of ‘key people in clubs, leagues and associations’. He or she is their to inform their readers and some of these stories will be good news and some bad news.
A weak journalist is always tramped on and gets absolutely zilch respect and is used as a dumping ground for p*sh and flying kites.
But the normal way of protecting sports hacks is for them to give a damaging story to the news desk who stick a rota reporter on it to do the story and the sports journo gets to ‘warn’ the club that an ersehole hard news thug had got a story about a player so it would be better to warn the player to keep a low profile or let his wife know about his away games. So the sports guy is the good guy and of course he never reveals his source which is invariably another player with a personal grievance.
Various ‘accommodations’ like this happen throughout the media and even local papers who come up with a story too hot for them to handle will leak it to a Daily and organise the publication day to suit the local’s publication day.
That’s how the business operates in the very dirty and oily engine room of news rather than the airy fairy world of sports journos who couldn’t write their way out of a wet paper bag but all of them think they are wonderful wordsmiths 😆
spanishcelt says:
September 11, 2013 at 9:16 pm
ecobhoy says:
September 11, 2013 at 6:19 pm
http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?t=974589 slowly they are starting to get the threat to the club if they aren’t getting the deceased part
===============================================================
Timescale seems to agree with what has been posted here by our spreadsheet wizards. Their accountant seems to have missed the £1.5 million though which is shown as income from SportsDirect via Rangers Retail which is actually a draw-down loan.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
That financial breakdown looks to have been posted by Mark Dingwall himself and he would only put that out with the nod from someone inside Ibrox.
This is just another part of the ”plan”
———————————————————————-
I don’t think it came from Ibrox and Dingwall posting it would be to protect his accountant source. No matter what people say about Dingwall he was one of the earliest to warn and worry over the Murray financial manoeuvres and raised the issue at agms but the Bears weren’t interested. Little has changed for many of them but I was actually quite encouraged with some of the posts I read on FF from Bears who certainly seem to have a grasp of the danger.
It’s a bit late but better late than never as they say.
My complaint to the BBC was not about the radio show. It was about the BBC’s reaction to complaints made about that show. As a result, my complaint was in the General category.