.. is More Secrecy
We all now know Lord Clark’s judgement on Friday has kicked off an arbitration process to solve the case raised by Hearts, Partick and their sleeping partner, Stranraer.
He seemingly had no option and did this because it is the “pre-decided” SFA procedure for football disputes.
Accordingly three qualified persons will be chosen from an existing SFA list and in effect become the judges and jury tasked with coming to a decision on a complex and complicated situation.
Be cogniscant that this is a situation where relegation will have huge financial impact to the three clubs and their members of staff at a time of pandemic related economic hardship.
Real people and real jobs cast aside by what could be classed as myopia and lack of leadership.
And potentially exacerbated by a decision made in secret, in an unreported process, with no avenue to appeal.
Did Hearts and Thistle and Stranraer deserve to be relegated I hear you ask?
Yes so far, and on points per game, but there were enough games left and all three could easily have avoided the drop.
By the same judgement Hearts should already have been awarded the Scottish Cup as they were statistically the remaining club with the best cup record and goal difference!
The three Arbitrators will now hear the SPFL case and the Hearts and Thistle case put forward by their expensive legal teams and then decide.
Simples.
Maybe not.
From press reports the SPFL even tried to block their own members, Hearts and Thistle, getting access to their co –owned SPFL documents but Lord Clark seemingly stopped that.
It seems being aware of the severe time constraints, and maybe also possibly suspecting downstream game-playing, he also offered his and the court’s availability if required.
Let me clarify something that I didn’t know until last week.
Arbitration is not the same as mediation.
Not even close.
From what I’ve read since, mediation would have been better for all concerned but progressing that way that would have taken a less dysfunctional corporate structure across our game.
It could and should have been the best way forward for us all.
If only.
But fair enough we all need a result and arbitration we’ve been told can maybe deliver that in around 10 days.
In the meantime ask yourself if an arbitration decision made and dished out without any kind of public scrutiny or redress is the way to go?
What if deep inside the system there is any kind of unseen bias?
By the way that’s just a question.
I’m not suggesting that there is inherent bias.
Surely no biases in Scottish football exist.
Being positive I can see the advantages of coming to a conclusion in a process that is quicker and less costly to our game than going to the courts but something about the whole thing is wrong.
My instinct says it’s the secrecy.
Most of the people I have spoken with agree.
We all live in Scotland where our government is open to the public and where government committees are on the public record.
The fourth estate is all over everything they do.
Likewise our courts are generally open to the public and to the media to report on what is happening within.
There is nothing in this dispute that should be kept secret from the real stakeholders in the game, the fans.
We all have a stake in the game.
There is nothing healthy about this closed doors charade.
It should all be out in the open.
Any judgement made without the presence and scrutiny of the media and SFM’s very own Easyjambo and John Clark is open to retrospective revisitation ad infinitum and will never bring the fairness and closure we all need.
It is not in any way the formula for the reconciliation that is needed across all 42 clubs.
Football fans don’t always have to agree but we need to know that it is refereed fairly. Arbitration rules laugh at that basic requirement.
How The Hell Did We Get Here?
As I write the countdown to the new season is underway and a sans-Hearts fixture list is imminent.
I have no idea what will happen if the three wise arbitration men decide to block the Hearts, Partick and Stranraer SPFL enforced demotions.
They might indeed.
The majority of fans wouldn’t disagree with them if they did even if it becomes a mess.
Yes that would be a doomsday scenario for all but we’d bounce back.
If it is the right thing to do for our game then a bit of hassle for Neil and Co should not stop it happening.
10 days or so will tell.
Were the Leagues Called Too Soon?
Chick and Tam on the radio certainly, and indignantly think so.
Most fans concur with many of us already watching English football nightly and wondering what if?
I think only four countries in Europe ended their leagues early.
We’ve been told the SPFL came to the decision to trigger payments because of our new TV contract.
Seems plausible enough and to be fair there was great club impecuniosity and huge amounts of uncertainty at the time.
I’ve since also heard that the old broadcast contracts were renegotiated and compensation paid for the lost games as the new Sky deal became the focus and probably the driving force.
Money rules and Sky calls the tune in their 4 old firm games view of our world.
This combined and meant two big decisions were immediately on the horizon.
First Hearts, Thistle and Stranraer were to be relegated.
(“Bye-bye guys, tough luck and take your medicine”, from your erstwhile football family friends, almost certainly avoiding eye contact in the zoom meeting)!
Secondly Brechin City, or another, was spared the play offs and with the pyramid chain broken the top team from the play offs was told to forget their hopes of joining the SPFL.
Outrageous.
Someone at the SFA should have thrown a hissy fit and done something for their 2 disadvantaged members but I don’t think they ever did.
A real insight into how heartless our game can be.
Along the way
We all sat back in amazement as Neil’s “Good Friday Disagreement” evolved when John Nelm’s Dundee’s vote got first lost, then found and then changed over the weekend.
Didn’t smell right then.
Smells even worse now.
Along the way Dundee somehow became the casting vote.
(I hope there are full records of what really happened for the Arbitrators).
At the time, and rumbling still, there was huge criticism of the SPFL board for conflating approval of something or other to the much-needed payments due to the clubs.
(Apologies for the brevity but it all merges. So much was going on and a lot we never heard about too).
Rangers then came in live on radio demanding Neil D and Rod McKenzie to be spanked very hard but never quite being able to tell us why.
Other stuff happened after the vote too.
Maybe it was clever diversionary tactics, maybe something else, but for two or three weeks it was all go in all directions.
We had task forces set up here, there and everywhere.
So many I can’t actually remember their remits and to be honest like so many I can’t quite be bothered now.
It seemed we had the game looking at the genuine change that fans want and even us the independent SFSA were asked to help by Les Gray one of the task force co-chairs.
We did by taking it to our members and to the SFM too, in good faith even though deep down we thought it was all part of a game and said so.
Sadly it was a waste of effort and time moved on but fair play to Neil and the SPFL board.
Fair play because at the 11th hour they tried to get approval from their members to temporarily extend the leagues.
Neil’s attempt to do that wasn’t an actual formal vote.
That never happened.
What was termed by the SPFL as an “Indicative Vote” was heavily defeated.
Several weeks on and 18 of our 42 clubs still won’t even tell us their fans how they voted.
I had already asked Neil Doncaster how clubs voted and he told me it was secret ballot.
So it’s still mostly secret and like all secrets has the inherent ability to fester.
None of us can blame the clubs for voting the way they did.
A couple of weeks ago when trying to analyse the vote I highlighted that Hibs inexplicably voted against an Edinburgh Derby.
Having enjoyed many I still don’t get that.
I’m also on record recently stating that Ross County also voted no and effectively sentenced their two nearest neighbours and friends, ICT and Brora, to significantly less revenue in the next year.
And at the same time their no vote helped stymie the pyramid that was introduced to allow clubs like Ross County of old access the higher leagues.
(I well remember them in the Highland League – and played against them at the time).
I haven’t spoken with Roy MacGregor about his vote but I know that if I was a chairman of a bottom six club I too would have foreseen the approaching tsunamic, post-Covid crunch coming down the tracks. That was the season when the Covid induced “temporary league” of 14 had to be reduced back to 12, meaning 3 clubs get relegated, and 1 goes into a play off position.
4 out of 14!
Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! and ouch!
Not good business for anyone.
Like Roy, I’d have said “Sorry” to ICT and Brora and voted the same as he did. Roy’s fiduciary duty is to his club not to his neighbours.
Roy, I respect your position and all other chairmen too but it should never have come to this in our totally unnecessary football civil war.
And you know after hearing John Collins say on the radio today asking “Where’s the fairness in any of this”? I can’t disagree.
Words Of Wisdom For The 3 Wise Men
Fairness would be my starting point.
We know fans will never all agree about anything because we love our clubs and they will always come first.
But we crave fairness, openness and transparency.
That’s probably the first time I have written the transparency word since Stewart Regan nearly wore it our 8 years ago.
Out message to our Arbitrators is as follows.
The Scottish Fans are the bona fide stakeholders in the game and fund the clubs.
We collectively want and will welcome bigger leagues.*
We want no extra damage to any club from Covid.
We believe that there should be transparency in everything in football.
We abhor and have no trust in closed doors and secrecy.
Please publish your results and allow access to the process along the way.
What would be wrong with that?
What harm could it do?
A significant majority of fans don’t agree with these enforced relegations and would prefer either to finish the season or enlarge the leagues permanently.
And finally fans demand to be listened to because it seems we are the only ones who are able and willing to see the bigger picture for the good of the game.
No Closed Door Festering Secrets in Scottish Football
- Arbitrators we are happy to share our research with you.
Apologies if covered already, but it looks like the detail behind the new kit deal for TRFC is becoming clearer – and the SMSM doesn't want to talk about it…
I went onto 'Bears Den' and they seem to be aware and not best pleased at being lied to by the Blue Room. They realise – belatedly – that Big Mike has not done walking away at all.
From what I've managed to see so far, TRFC/Castore are claiming 50K pre-orders.
IIRC, it was £50 to join 'Mygers' to have access to pre-order.
Tops are c.£60 (?).
The first orders are due to be issued on August 1st.
I'm guessing the 50K orders total might be optimistic – but, back of a fag packet estimation;
Castore has already pulled in c.£3M.
Mygers has pulled in c.£2.5M.
Not a bad start for generating cash up front.
It does raise the rather obvious question though: will this small operation – which has never had a kit deal before – actually be able to deliver 50K tops on August 1st?
…and that's even before taking into account the impact of the pandemic on production, supply chains and distribution…?
It must be tempting to just do a runner with the money…
So the SPFL finally issues the Premiership fixtures for 2020/21.
I’m sure that everyone will be astonished to find that the first Celtic v Rangers fixture has been scheduled for Round 11 of the first round of fixtures. That of course offers the best opportunity for the game, scheduled for the weekend of 17/18 October, to be played in front of a live (possibly restricted) audience.
Now, for Celtic, what league game would be their best opportunity of maximising revenues from the sale of tickets, hospitality, merchandising, advertising etc. Isn’t it an amazing coincidence any such game should end up being scheduled to offer Celtic their best opportunity to boost their income after having to deal with a number of games against other Premiership clubs behind closed doors.
I appreciate that it may not be possible to have that particular fixture played in front of fans in any event, but I find such gerrymandering of fixtures goes against all principles of sporting integrity and I find it as frustrating as hell.
eJ, I thought it was supposed to be “a computer” which generated the fixture list?
Didn’t CFC get very lucky then to land the TRFC game in Round 11?
And if you put your points to Lawwell, he would probably reply – with a straight face – that he hadn’t seen the fixture list, until published!
Just another murky item to sweep under the SPFL carpet.
It seems that the UDA PR man has taken a tight grip on any information about TRFC/RIFC . No info on the Katic injury last week , and nothing about Alfredo . I heard a rumour that Lovenkrands fell foul and got bumped .
Is there a protocol that that fixtures are mirrored ie if the home game against a club is bcd, the return fixture against the same opponent is also bcd to ensure the integrity of competition ?
StevieBC 6th July 2020 at 13:37
It must be tempting to just do a runner with the money…
===============================================
Or have someone on board who has the infrastructure to deal with the demand.
They would probably want a piece of the action as well though.
Dundee United has decided to seek financial support from other clubs or crowdfunding to defend their position at the arbitration tribunal.
https://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/news/6503/CLUB-STATEMENT.html
I won’t comment on the whys or wherefores of the content, save to say that it is highly unusual to see “sporting integrity” and “SPFL” in the same sentence.
The arbitration process is now officially underway
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/notice-of-referral-to-arbitration/?rid=13929
I agree with the blog comments about removing secrecy at Hampden.
It's supposed to be the 'People's Game', so why can't SFA and SPFL meetings be livestreamed, as routine?
Ok, there might be an occasional meeting where commercial confidentiality has to be respected… but we're talking about the administration of a sport: it's not exactly State Secret level information being discussed.
But, ANY/ALL 42 clubs could have pushed for such a significant move to improve trust levels with the fans – and for minimal cost.
The clubs are not interested in what the fans think or want.
They're just interested in our money for overpriced ST's and exorbitantly, overpriced replica tops.
Nothing changes: nobody at Hampden is listening either.
As discussed many times over the years, it seems ever more relevant to have a professionally run, independent service to provide governance.
I note that under the Scottish Arbitration Rules ( which are laid out in Schedule I to the Arbitration (Scotland) Act 2010) there is not a requirement that witnesses be put on oath before testifying.
“36 The tribunal may—[my bold]
(a)direct that a party or witness is to be examined on oath or affirmation, and
(b)administer an oath or affirmation for that purpose.”
I think that it’s rather a pity that swearing an oath is not mandatory.
We have had plenty of evidence that people in football governance and in football clubs in the recent and not so recent times have shamelessly lied.
Indeed, one of the most outrageous untruths in the history of Scottish Football (you know the one I refer to) has been sedulously bolstered and propagated for several years now; and barriers were put up to block investigation into another, slightly earlier, set of covert dealings which were and are highly questionable.
There is no guarantee that anyone asked to give evidence to the Arbitration Tribunal that will hear the dispute between HoM/PT and the SPFL would tell the truth even if he was under oath. But at least he would be liable for penalties if he lied under oath!
In my view, anyone giving evidence in any legal ‘tribunal’ should as a matter of course be required to be on oath/affirmation.
It can be argued , of course, that in the case in question no one is being charged with a ‘crime’, and that the Tribunal is not about proving criminal guilt on anyone’s part.
But where relatively large sums of money,and sporting honour, position, and good name are at stake for either party, there might be a temptation to prevaricate, tergiversate, equivocate, obfuscate or even lie!
As I say, we have seen and heard it done!
So I hope that witnesses are called, and are put on oath and cross-examined rigorously!
"Doncaster also insists Scotland’s Premiership has a golden opportunity to take centre stage across the globe in August.
The SPFL chief executive believes a gap in the footballing calendar elsewhere opens the door for the country’s top flight to showcase the game in “its best light.”
He said: “With so little other sport going then, Scottish football has the chance to be shown in its best light and we are looking forward to the return of it.”
So our Keef reports.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/football/neil-doncaster-in-spfl-appeal-to-nicola-sturgeon-as-clubs-seek-pre-season-friendly-green-light/ar-BB16pARF?ocid=msedgntp
I'm not sure what audience it is who will see 'Scottish football in its best light' because in August there will be so little sport going then?
I am genuinely ignorant and not necessarily being critical. What does Doncaster refer to?
easyJambo 6th July 2020 at 16:47
'……save to say that it is highly unusual to see “sporting integrity” and “SPFL” in the same sentence.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
It certainly has been, since 2012!
In the panic caused by the Liquidation of RFC in 2012 which came about because of sports cheating on an unheard of scale, 'sporting integrity' was cast aside and an absolute fiction was created to deny, in effect , the deliberate, planned , sports cheating (and tax cheating) that had been going on for about a decade by a guilty, cheating, dishonest football club's knighted majority shareholder.
The SPFL bought into that fiction to save liars and cheats!
Yet, in the circumstances of a pandemic they yet find themselves bound by 'Rules' to inflict damage on clubs innocent of any crime or fault!
It is a measure of the dirty mind of Scottish Football (and the SMSM ) that a normal liquidation of a club was 'specially' dealt with at the expense of sporting integrity, while the wholly unique circumstance of a pandemic is allowed to damage innocent clubs.
In my opinion.
Peter, the most influential man in Scottish Fitbaw doesn’t tend to do surprises. He much prefers to deal with his many friends in the SPFL and SFA and help them to arrange outcomes.
Peter prefers to work/lobby/demand in secret, silently wandering the 6th floor. Although, during that smelly Good Friday Vote fiasco, there was a leaked whatsup message from Eric Drysdale (Dundee) that included this revealing expectation regarding who Neil Doncaster would first turn to when the plan was somewhat in the air.
“..I’m imagining that Neil will have been talking to Peter just after 5, and the SPFL not having received our vote, has led to further discussions with John of which I currently have no knowledge..”
Let’s park that for now and move to the fixture list, where Peter got what he wanted.
What use friends and influence, if you can’t use them to help you and your club get your way. To hell with thinking about other clubs, it’s Peters duty to look after number one, Celtic and self. A man has to look after his seven figure renumeration package in these hard times.
Why wouldn’t Ian Blair (SPFL fixture guru) think of Lower Leagues clubs, who start on that same October weekend and make sure that the media spotlight wasn’t so consumed by an Old Firm match. Last week when on Sportsound, Blair said and I paraphrase, that because of other circumstances, the first Celtic v Rangers fixture had 4 possible dates? Mr Blair is one of Peters Friends and so it seems as if the Lower Leagues can go hang. Not to mention every other club who would ideally have wanted their big revenue raising match on that weekend.
Silent Peter can always be found when you follow the money.
He doesn’t do sporting integrity, but sometimes likes to talk about it.
A SECRET hearing (arbitration) suits the SPFL down to the ground.
That kind of says everything about the type of corporate goverance and dealings that they like to engage in.
Don’t know if it’s a Scottish thing but apparently, Peter doesn’t like leeks.
They aren’t in season but the Scottish game could do with some big beauties, so as to help cast some light in secret corners (help clear passages, so to speak).
Oh, the memories come flooding back, the vocabulary (administration, insolvency event, points deductions , potential rescuers……) How corrupt is English football ? Will there be a genuine out-of-admin purchase, or a Scottish- Football-style Big Lie a la TRFC ?
We wait with bated breath!
"Wigan Athletic's administrators have launched an appeal against the club's impending 12-point deduction, while rugby league side Wigan Warriors have announced their intention to bid for the stricken football club.
The Sky Bet Championship club entered administration on Wednesday and are set to be handed a 12-point penalty by the EFL once the season has been completed."
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11682/12022798/wigan-athletic-appeal-12-point-deduction-wigan-warriors-intend-to-bid-for-football-club
Maybe somebody in the ever diminishing (in power influence – and sales) SMSM could Castore some light, by emerging from their very own secret corners, on Big Mike’s position vis-a-vis the Sevco kit deal, and refute the following
Wiki Castore reveals “the Fraser Group appears to own Castore…Ashley is CEO of FG, and among their dozens of brands is Castore which means, in fact,we believe Ashley retains control of Rangers kits after all”. (6th May!).
I couldn’t swear to this being a fact, you understand, but I know where my money would be.
How (or, just as importantly importantly why?) did they apparently/ allegedly they miss this from a simple Google search?
bect67 7th July 2020 at 13:41
==========================
I would refer you to the most recent shareholder list dated 8/8/2019 and the persons with significant control submission dated 15/1/2020 for Castore’s operating company J.CARTER SPORTING CLUB LIMITED.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09670915/filing-history
Can you identify through which of those shareholdings Fraser Group controls Castore?
The SPFL fixture fiddle fiasco is a disgrace and only goes to confirm the fixation with 2 teams and 2 teams only. Sky no doubt stating that they want to maximise the "match day experience" for audiences throughout the country/world by having fans present if at all possible. I am already sick of this season. For the MSM it is only about getting or stopping TIAR. Why do they not just have these 2 teams play each other every week and put the games on Sky and see how quickly interest fades (or would it??).
Scottish professional football is broken! How do we mend it? 35 years since any team out with these 2 teams won the top league FFS! And who would bet against, if things continue the way is is, that in another 35 years folk will be saying 70 years! Is it mendable? I would love to put some realistic proposals forward but sadly can't. I think there are too many professional clubs in Scotland and 2 of them are too big compared to any of the others in terms of available resources (wherever the money comes from). I would shed no tears if new Rangers went tits up (don't think they will though) but that would not solve anything as we saw when their was not a Rangers in the top league.
I could go on but really what's the point.
Easyjambo – 2019???
So – the situation hasn’t changed since then? My apologies if so (though I’m not so sure).
May I humbly and innocently suggest that the source I quoted is as good as any impartial one. However, just a wee follow up question (and please be gentle as you remember I didn’t claim any fact here!)
At which outlets will kits be sold (other that TRFC, Frasers and maybe ‘The Barras’/Turkey?)
bect67 7th July 2020 at 13:41
Maybe somebody in the ever diminishing (in power influence – and sales) SMSM could Castore some light, by emerging from their very own secret corners, on Big Mike’s position vis-a-vis the Sevco kit deal, and refute the following
Wiki Castore reveals “the Fraser Group appears to own Castore…Ashley is CEO of FG, and among their dozens of brands is Castore which means, in fact,we believe Ashley retains control of Rangers kits after all”. (6th May!).
I couldn’t swear to this being a fact, you understand, but I know where my money would be.
How (or, just as importantly importantly why?) did they apparently/ allegedly they miss this from a simple Google search?
================================================
I think some wee devil added castore onto that wiki listing rofl have a check not there now.
=========================================================
reasonablechap 7th July 2020 at 12:53
A SECRET hearing (arbitration) suits the SPFL down to the ground.
That kind of says everything about the type of corporate goverance and dealings that they like to engage in.
Don’t know if it’s a Scottish thing but apparently, Peter doesn’t like leeks.
They aren’t in season but the Scottish game could do with some big beauties, so as to help cast some light in secret corners (help clear passages, so to speak).
=====================================================
Yes and all the way back to when oldco died paranoid much.
bect67 7th July 2020 at 15:34
Easyjambo – 2019???
So – the situation hasn’t changed since then? My apologies if so (though I’m not so sure).
=========================
The company would be required to notify Companies House (within 21 days?) of a change that affects a “Person of Significant Control”, i.e. controls 25% or more
The company would be required to notify Companies House (within 21 days?) of a change that affects a “Person of Significant Control”, i.e. controls 25% or more
============================================================
Are there any penalties for not so doing? Do they check up that companies do obey their rules?
We have seen how JC is being messed about by the people that are supposed to protect shareholders.
‘easyJambo 7th July 2020 at 14:40
I would refer you to the most recent shareholder list dated 8/8/2019 and the persons with significant control submission dated 15/1/2020 for Castore’s operating company J.CARTER SPORTING CLUB LIMITED.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09670915/filing-history
Can you identify through which of those shareholdings Fraser Group controls Castore?’
#####################
I’m not a trademark expert, but the term ‘Castore’ appears to be unprotected. I can’t find it, anyway!
A company of that name was incorporated on 31.03.20 (by a David Jason McLaughlin: David Jason/Del Boy!), possibly with a view to a future sale of the name to a third party; a popular & sometimes financially rewarding pastime.
Jingso.Jimsie 7th July 2020 at 17:03
https://trademarks.justia.com/792/42/castore-79242124.html
Following the name Steven Perez, there is a man of that name, but I can’t say he is “Employee” Steven Perez, or whether either are connected to a US legal firm, but Global Brands Limited deal in third party trademarks and licensing
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/03366749/GLOBAL-BRANDS-LIMITED/companies-house-data
(Un)Reasonablechap , I swore I would nt bite but how you can come on here and spout supposed injustices when you have witnessed your team CHEAT every club in the land for years and years . Have you no brass neck ? ( rhetorical question ) not just that but your team (Mk 11 ) were allowed to play in the bottom Leaugue which in itsef should nt have been allowed . Any other club would have been grateful that they were indeed allowed to participate in the bottom league . Not your club or its fans , no because in your warped mind you Arra Peepul and you are entitled. ….. Your Club died …fact…can you acknowledge that ? Your club was never properly punished , can you acknowledge that ? Again rhetorical questions . ……Now you are rabbiting on about secret meetings , Which I actually agree that nothing should be seceret in our game. But its not for you to try and take the moral high ground , you have no right to ask those questions … Why not you may say , I,ll tell you why . Your club and its fans are in complete denial about how the original Rangers have behaved . Your club along with your SFA cabal of friends had secret meetings all for the purpose to benefit ONE club only, your club or should I say clubs , Rangers and "the Rangers" . You even rigged a so called enquiry , set up in a way that the outcome was pre determined . Remember Super Ally with his cheeky wee grin telling everyone before the enquiry " They wont be stripping our titles " ….yes he knew the fix was in , he knew the SFA and "Lord" Nimmo Smith were in the blue corner. So dont come on here playing high and mighty with guys who genuinely want whats best for Scottish football . You have been on here loads of times under different names ….do us all a favour go on to the OCNC part of the blog and argue with yourself or get guys like Daryll Broadfoot to join you and you can let off steam with each other til your hearts content
roddybhoy
Although to most posters on here, RC, in terms of reasoning, is a ‘goner’, your relapse is perfectly understandable – so don’t be too hard on yourself about responding to his drivel (if you think that what it is!?).
Just sing the following words to yourself every now and again;-
“Here he goes again, spouting p*** again etc” a la Green Brigade
and you will feel better.
Then ‘cease and desist’ from feeding him – ah’m no’ tell ye again boy!
Re my post of 1703hrs:
After a bit more Googling, I've found a series of UK TMs referring to Castore.
WE00001413119
UK00003153614
EU017839259
Apologies if anyone was misled!
looking at the last few posts I rest my case. Good luck for the coming bigotfest season!
EJ points out no change in the companies house details of significant ownership in so much as any Mike Ashley involvement, but on the 16th of January this year the Beahons also relinquished their position as persons of significant control.Begs the question just who/what body does exactly have significant control?
bordersdon 7th July 2020 at 21:54
looking at the last few posts I rest my case. Good luck for the coming bigotfest season!
========================================
There were a total of 9 posts between your own 2, surely you didn't find fault with them all. Just for clarity, what's ones did you object to and find bigoted?
gunnerb@22:34
I'm with you on this one. It's easy to read the "relinquished control" as a matter of choice but it isn't. It is a statement that the Beahons now hold less than 25% control. The set up now suggests that no-one has more than 25%, that's all.
At around about the same time there was a cash injection of £7.5M from an unnamed source and, as far as I'm aware, the source is still unnamed. In exchange for what?
As far as I'm concerned this all meshes in perfectly with SD's exclusive claim for the strips and the fact that big Mike has "allowed" the deal to go ahead without matching it or even commenting on it. If the Castore deal went against the matching agreement then I would doubt very much that we would be seeing the strips being sold in HoF. Apart from anything else it would leave SD on very shaky legal ground should they decide to chase it through the courts again.
But we crave fairness, openness and transparency.
That’s probably the first time I have written the transparency word since Stewart Regan nearly wore it our 8 years ago
………………
Now 8 years later we have a club involved in a deal that was so secret and given No Transparency screaming from the roof tops for even-handedness and fair play, equality and respect.April 2020.(Respect. The old Buzz word used by Mark Warburton many a time)Anyway.
…………………….
The Scottish Fans are the bona fide stakeholders in the game and fund the clubs.
We believe that there should be transparency in everything in football.
We abhor and have no trust in closed doors and secrecy.
……….
If you were to ask any ibrox fan if they would like the Final draft of the secret 5 way agreement to be made public the answer would be NO. Fans can’t pick and choose when they want Transparency the same as clubs should not be allowed to pick and choose when they want Transparency. You can’t call for Transparency on one matter
that involves the whole of scottish football and at the same time turn a blind eye on another matter that involved, and still involves the whole of scottish football.
……….
No Closed Door Festering Secrets in Scottish Football.
…
Good luck with that request.
How things change !
It now appears that squirrels can change colour and investigate an individual club kit deal on wikipedia when the football authorities are having an omnishambolic summer.
Peter and Neil would approve.
According to Neil, the decisions and actions of the SPFL have been vindicated #NaeShame
Peter has supported him and the SPFL executive all of the way, mainly because Peter got what he wanted from his friends. From the conflated and railroaded push in April all the way to the fixture list that was published on Monday.
At the GM (via zoom?),we hear that Peter gave a rousing speech against an Independent Inquiry. Peter prefers the status quo, silence, darkness and secrecy. It gives him a better platform to do his thing….Wearing his ECA hat, did Peter put in a word for Neil to get on the UEFA ethics committee? Mibbes aye, mibbes naw but I wouldn’t bet against it. Maybe Peter has a dry sense of humour.
Follow the Money.
Money is power, Peter has power and wants more money for club and self.
The rush to calling the Leagues was about various things but for Peter, the single most important aspect was access to CL qualifiers and potential group stage money. The losers would just have to take their medicine.
The fixture fix wasn’t random. It was about giving Peter what he wanted, the potential opportunity to maximise revenue and home advantage against direct rivals. The losers can go hang, including 30 clubs in the Lower Leagues that will be kicking off the same weekend. At a time when clubs must try to maintain interest and not lose fans, the SPFL should have ensured that as much focus as possible was on getting the lower leagues up and running.
I think that one club has a disproportionate and unhealthy influence within the Scottish football authorities. The rest can take their medicine.
At least for a moment, please ignore the need that so many on here have, to view everything through what Easyjambo called the Rangers prism and look at the current state of play.
That request is probably doomed but for those whose default answer to everything is something along the lines of “but TRFC 2012” ,then I’d invite them to look at Peter again and follow the money, Peter isn’t interested in Res12, it’s bad for business.
easyJambo 6th July 2020 at 13:41
………..
Since 2002 there have been, including this year 5 October derby games as a start date.
8 September start date since 1998. and 4 Aug start date since 2000 and 1 November since 1999.
But for this season coming and because of the pandemic, if i was a betting person like Albert Kinloch i would have had a bet that the Derby game would not take place in Aug or Sep. May have even had a flutter on no game in Oct.
If only the bookmakers were open before the fixture list came out, could have booked a holiday to nowhere with the winnings.
Re the kit sales/deal, Big Mike still has Sevco ‘by the short and curlies’ whichever way you look at it. In short, SMSM jist no’ reportin’ it!
Also, are there any outstanding court settlements to be made in his favour?
Where’s ‘Cut throat Jake’ when you need 40 mill? (do I hear £10m max?)
There ye go Mike – that’s you sorted – noo leezalane tae go doon the tubes wursels!
Re the Castore ownership issues all I have to say is:-
ROOFS!
While I would have a huge laugh along with the rest of you if it is found Mike Ashley had some controlling interest in Castore, we have been here before.
Remember when the roofs at Ibrox were falling down? Phil Mac had one of his ever developing stories that the council were calling in safety inspectors and the likes, nets were up to stop debris falling on fans, the repair costs were going to see the end of the Govan club etc etc etc.
Many seasons of high winds, storms and the likes since then and they are still standing, staunchly!!
From Rangerstaxcase through to SFM what drew many people towards the sites was that we didn't lap up the types of conspiracies, nonsense and rumours that are sometimes spouted on some individual club's fans forums.
We have tended to look at the facts, review the available evidence, debate and then make reasoned judgments and have been all the better for it.
reasonablechap 8th July 2020 at 09:50
……………
I get this feeling you don’t like Peter and the influence he may have or have not in the game in Scotland, Don’t worry about it, let me tell you a story.
There was once this chap called David. One day David held great power over scottish football and the SMSM. This power sometimes he would say it’s only business. such influence he had that some of the smsm scrambled to have a seat at his daughters wedding, were the most succulent lamb was the dish of the day.
But as spidermans Uncle was known to say “With great power comes great responsibility”
This was David’s Downfall, The responsibility to stick to the rules was too much to Bear (no pun)
In the end it all came crashing down on top of David and all he was left with was a shiny new pound coin(and anything else he could Syphon off for himself)
Anyway. Ond day you may get your wish and peter will be gone, Will he be gone with a Golden handshake or a shinny new pound, only time will tell.
As a general observation, I suppose many, if not most, of us have been guilty of the occasional fudging of the truth, perhaps about some little facet of our personal and social lives.
It takes a certain kind of devilish malevolence for people to persist in sustaining and defending manifest and absurd lies over a period of 8 years or so, and to seek to divert attention from those lies.
People can be misinformed, or genuinely mistaken and therefore innocent of the charge of lying.
But liars know themselves to be liars and are driven to fury and further absurdities in trying to defend the indefensible.
The SPFL no doubt , having been an integral part of the 'Big Lie', may very well have lied again in more recent times.
We do not know ,however, that they rigged the fixtures list with the same certainty that we know that they continue to lie about TRFC being RFC of 1872.
But even if they did 'arrange' fixtures, that 'arrangement ' simply would add to their guilt, without in any way reducing or removing the guilt of RFC of 1872 for its cheating, the guilt of the signatories of the 5-Way Agreement for the construction of the Big Lie, and the guilt of RIFC plc for claiming to be the holding company of RFC of 1872!
wottpi 8th July 2020 at 10:19
Remember when the roofs at Ibrox were falling down?
…Yes and the fans were removed from seats as part of the roof was hanging ready to fall. I remember Dave king stating there was a lot of money spent on repairs to the stadium as it had been left in a state of dissrepair by previous boards.I believe if parts of the roof was falling down safety inspectors would be the first to get called. celtic would have done the same when part of the cladding came off during one of the named storms. I am sure that if repairs were not carried out and at some cost the safety inspectors would not pass any safety certificate. Someone had to stump up the cost and in the ibrox roof, someone had to bite the bullet and did.
Cluster One 8th July 2020 at 11:02
On 1st December 2015 740 fans were moved before the start of the second half of a match because of issues with the roof. This cause a 10 minute delay to the game restarting. Basically bits of the room had came away and were swinging above the supporters. It is fortunate none of it actually fell down whilst they were below it.
On 2nd February Glasgow Council announced that they would inspect the damage, and would expect any remedial work to be carried out by the time the next game was due, on 12th December.
Clearly the loss making club had to get that fixed. In November 2017 Dave King had this to say about the stadium.
“A lot of the work we’ve done over the last couple of years has probably not rightly been termed ‘improvements’.
“I think what we’ve done is refurbishing and repairing a stadium that had become dilapidated to get it back to being fit for purpose and something Rangers supporters should be proud of.
“We’ve spent a lot of money on that side and we’ve already committed another several million to improving it.
“There are areas – roofs, within the stands, painting – there’s a whole bunch of things that we need to be doing there.”
That’s just looking at the facts, a reasonable inference is that there were problems with the roofs at Ibrox and the club had to pay to get them repaired.
Ballyargus last night
There were a total of 9 posts between your own 2, surely you didn't find fault with them all. Just for clarity, what's ones did you object to and find bigoted?
—————————————————————————
You misunderstand. I did not imply that any of the posts in themselves were bigoted but that, I felt, that they confirmed the obsession with all things Celtic and Rangers. Yes, as WOTTPI says, we would all have a good laugh if Mike Ashley controlled Castore. But according to Tom Beahon he is not the £7.5m investor and according to Companies House is not a major shareholder.
The Beahon brothers who formed the company were both persons of significant control up until January this year. It was then announced that they no longer held that position.
On the same day this was announced a share issue was also announced. That presumably took them below the threshold.
There has been a general meeting subsequent to that, where special resolutions were passed to allow certain share dealing to take place, there has been another share issue.
Based on the above it would appear that someone, or group of people have been investing in the business. This is hardly surprising as they would appear to be trying to grow reasonably quickly and would need a cash injection in order to do that.
In addition to the cash they may wish to tie in with someone who has the infrastructure and retailing experience / outlets to assist with the expansion.
That people are conjecturing that Mike Ashley may be involved is hardly surprising. Particularly when he released the story about selling Rangers replica kit, when most of the support thought that he would never be doing it again. Particularly when he used the word exclusively.
Rangers' nebulous equivocation in response to the supporters anger hasn't done much in my view to dispel that. Bearing in mind that they were actively seeking someone to promote and sell their kit for them.
Castore were an unlikely choice and they may have had conditions of their own, with regards for example their own "partners", to allow them to take the contract on. Rangers may not have had much in the way of choice on this.
It is hardly surprising that their has been some conjecture. Even if that is for the most part mischievous.
Cluster One 8th July 2020 at 11:02
Homunculus 8th July 2020 at 11:56
Yes there were issues with the roof , but it was minor external cladding damage in the area of the stands and clearly some repairs were required behind the scenes, as was admitted by Dave King in public. Money was clearly spent by the Ibrox club and will probably be able to be identified in annual accounts.
My point is that it was nowhere near the catastrophic, major and hugely expensive refurbishment, such as lifting the roofs off etc, that was being talked about and hoped for.
Every stadium in the country needs regular maintenance, it does not mean that they are unsafe, ready to fall down and will result in clubs going to the wall.
wottpi 8th July 2020 at 12:22
=====================================
What I have said is on record.
Where do you get your response from "… it was minor external cladding damage in the area of the stands …"
How for example was "external cladding" in danger of falling on the heads of supporters inside the stadium. Why were 740 supporters, in the stands, moved because of "minor external cladding damage".
How much was spent in order to repair the damage. Do you have any idea or is that just conjecture on your part.
At the time it was reported that there was damage to flashing leading to water getting in and damaging the roof. That does not sound like external cladding damage to me.
You have accused others of conjecture, rather than examining the facts and drawing a conclusion. You seem to be doing that yourself. Look at Dave King's comments, he even used the word "dilapidated" and talked about spending a lot of money. I'm afraid your talk of "minor external cladding damage" does not fit with either his comments or a load of people inside the stadium having to be moved during a game.
John Clark 8th July 2020 at 10:52
…
It takes a certain kind of devilish malevolence for people to persist in sustaining and defending manifest and absurd lies over a period of 8 years or so…
==============
Since you mentioned “devilish”, JC.
My comment is not about TRFC or CFC – but about the Collective that is the senior, Scottish game: the 42 clubs.
As time goes by, nothing seems to change/improve in terms of governance – but one aspect is becoming painfully clearer every day.
In 2012 the Collective had a choice: change and improve – or lie.
The Collective made its choice: the Big Lie was explicitly or implicitly accepted by the 42 clubs.
In 2012 the Collective decided – in its wisdom – to sell the soul of the Scottish game (to the Devil? 🙁 ).
A new club was not only fast tracked into the bottom league, but it was also accepted by the Collective as being the same club which was liquidated in shame.
IIRC, not one club has ever publicly stated or protested otherwise.
You, me and every other supporter had no say in any of this.
All we could do was threaten to withhold ST monies and support: this resulted in the new club being forced into the bottom league – rather than either of the top 2 leagues!
My attitude hasn’t changed since 2012: the Ibrox club should have been kicked out of Scottish football sine die – for sustained, industrial scale cheating over many, many years.
Instead of using the circumstances of 2012 as a catalyst for change in governance and the game, the Collective decided instead to drag the Scottish game down to the level of a corrupt, cheating, lying club.
All for money, of course. Business trumped sport.
Today the Collective desperately needs supporters’ cash to survive. Well, the clubs chose to be businesses first and foremost back in 2012. Businesses go bust and die all the time: pandemic or not.
Maybe this is a time of reckoning for the Collective: I’m not overly sympathetic towards its fate.
bect67 8th July 2020 at 10:07
Re the kit sales/deal, Big Mike still has Sevco ‘by the short and curlies’ whichever way you look at it. In short, SMSM jist no’ reportin’ it!
…………….
But they have registered a New badge and the smsm are reporting on it.
https://twitter.com/GLiveSport/status/1280836581037871104
Homunculus 8th July 2020 at 11:56
………..
Thanks for clarification on that matter, i did it from memory and did not yet have my morning coffee, and could not be bothered to look it up. Thanks again.
Lockdown and lousy weather appear to be causing some friction . Something to cheer you up – a wee poem by Don Paterson about an aspect of Scottish football .
https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/nil-nil/
Homunculus 8th July 2020 at 12:40
Pictorial evidence of the damage to the roof that caused 740 fans to be moved can be seen here.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3341864/Rangers-match-delayed-300-fans-moved-safety-concerns-stadium-roof-Ibrox.html
If given the size of Ibrox you wish, in engineering terms, to describe this as something beyond minor external damage then please go ahead.
As far as I can see the damage was spotted on the night, those in charge at Ibrox assessed the situation and rightly moved fans away because while the damage was minor, the potential risk of injury was substantial should the panel fall into the stand.
Of course a larger section of external cladding fell from the Jock Stein stand due to high winds a while later and Celtic blogger James Forest described it as ".. a little structural damage on the side of a stand: a single panel has blown out in our freakish weather. Nothing that doesn't happen all over the country…."
I'm not suggesting, and never have, that there wasn't some issues regards the roofs at Ibrox that needed attention. However, from what there is in the public domain it is clear that the issues and any expense to resolve matters were not of the magnitude that people posting on here and elsewhere were hoping for. That being, 'major works' with a cost that would bankrupt the club/company.
People were full of conjecture that the roofs were going to be the latest in a long line of rumours that was going to see the end of the club from Govan. Fears were raised regarding the whole lot coming down if subjected to heavy snow or winds.
At the time I said this would not be a major issue and it would not result in the end of the club. I also said that neither would anyone with an ounce of professional decency allow an unsafe condition to continue without reporting it to the relevant bodies or whistleblow to the the press if need be.
Given that four and half years on they are gearing up for yet another season at ….err, Ibrox with the roof intact, I have so far been correct on both points.
I'm not looking for an argument, just pointing out that I think SFM should be better than circulating what you describe as mischievous conjecture.
wottpi 8th July 2020 at 14:47
—————————————————-
You are still conjecturing, you don't know how much other damage there was, or how much it cost to repair it. Those photographs don't show any of the internal structure.
The only point I am making is that you are doing exactly the thing you are accusing other people of. To me Dave King's words suggest the damage was more than superficial external cladding. You choose to claim that's all it was, based on a few photographs showing very little, and a suggestion that it will be in the accounts somewhere.
Without further evidence there is little point in continuing with this. So I will leave it at that.
There is a lot of stuff that comes out of ibrox and beyond ibrox of impending doom. just off the top of my head the Orlt winding up saga, At the time it was denied from ibrox to later to be found they had to pay a large bill if i remember correctely. The Rangers need £10 mill to stay afloat Malcolm Murray, to I paid gers electricity bill. Maybe in a few years all the material may come out about the roofs. In the meantime don’t be sad that this ibrox club has not gone bust yet just, be happy you were alive to see the old one die.
Somehow these posts remind me of the Craig whyte interview he had with the vanguard bears on Feb 11, 2012 and there was no chance the club would goto the wall(those message boards must have been full of praise that night. Look how that turned out.
Re the Castore shareholdings (J.Carter Sporting Club Limited)
Here is the timeline of what has been notified to Companies House.
12/04/2019 – Total number of shares issued 91,713
8/8/2019 – Confirmation that the two largest shareholders P Beahon and T Beahon each held 25,000 shares, or 27.3% each.
13/01/2020 – A "Written Resolution" (not another one
) authorises the issue of up to 11,625 new shares, (expires 6/3/2020).
Also authorises P Beahon and T Beahon to each transfer 3.75% of the shares in the company to a "new shareholder" (expires 13/03/2020)
15/01/2020 – 7,751 new shares issued, raising £2.625m. Total shares issued now 99,464.
P Beahon's and T Beahon's 25,000 shares would each now represent 25.1%
However, a Person with Significant Control statement (PSC08) issued on the same date indicates no PSC (no person with over 25%), suggesting that P Beahon and T Beahon had transferred at least some shares to drop below the 25% threshold.
6/3/2020 – 4,633 new shares issued raising £1.434m with a further 63 shares issued and purchased at the nominal value of "one tenth of a penny", raising 6.3 pence. Total shares issued now 103,760.
In summary 12,047 new shares were issued between January and March, raising £4.059m in total. The new shares represent 11.6% of the company. The "new shareholder" (if a single investor) could therefore own that 11.6% plus 7.5% from the Beahon brothers making a maximum holding of 19.1%. The Beahon brothers would each still own around 21%, depending on the exact date of their share transfers.
Homunculus 8th July 2020 at 15:51
Here is what I said earlier at 12:22
Therefore I was referring to both the minor 'external' cladding issue and other issues which wouldn't be visible to fans and the general public.
I have no idea why you think I was only referring to a piece of damaged cladding given King's public utterances were all clearly related to more significant works required.
At the time people were conjecturing the issues with the roofs were going to:
a) cost the club so much they could go bust
b) going to fall down.
Yes I had no specific knowledge of the extent of the problems or the costs but from what I do know about such matters I offered a view that a) & b ) above was poppycock and have, to date been proven right.
Same with Castore, people have been saying Ashley owns them.
IIRC, this was dealt with on here a while back and shown to be false, as far as we know to date.
The claim has been raised on here again but without any new evidence being provided.
In fact it was all the same stuff spouted earlier.
As EJ has pointed out (again), from his experience and knowledge of Companies House processes etc there is nothing new or different in the public domain, as yet.
It may be conjecture but it is more sound than simply repeating 'back of the cab' rumours in the hope that they come true.
easyJambo 8th July 2020 at 17:37
=================================
Thanks for the breakdown and timeline.
It makes sense that they wanted to bring some money into the business. Particularly if they expected to be making large sales to their new customer base, which seems to be transpiring as the pre-orders are apparently sold out.
It would also make sense if that new money came from a source which was already in the business and could help not just with investment, but also with infrastructure, contacts and expertise.
As I said, given Ashley's announcement and the pathetic attempts that Rangers have made at denying his involvement it is hardly a surprise that people are conjecturing. Even if they are putting 2 and 2 together to get 5.
Cluster One 8th July 2020 at 17:24
Nothing would make me happier than see Sevco go down the toilet but I just hate it when folks grasp at straws.
For those with long memories we have seen countless stories such as when Barcabhoy said there was something 'nuclear' going to happen. Still waiting!!
Phil Mac was on the ball when the old club died but we have had eight years of 'developing stories' that have generally amounted to nothing other than to reinforce what we know given the position of the annual accounts published each year. That being, both old and new clubs like spending more than they bring in.
The reality is that Sevco will go bust when the simple accountancy catches up with them and (as per SDM) they have no-one left to bleed dry. Either that or they try and reach a position of sustainability but accept the limitations that may have on their ambitions.
In terms of a financial implosion it could be a sudden unexpected event(this virus), it could major expenditure arising as the result of putting something off (dare I mention roofs repairs) or it could be a creditor finally taking them to court.
However, everything points to them clearly walking a financial tight rope but still having adequate juggling skills in terms of managing to pay wages, pay taxes keep their facilities running and manage creditors.
wottpi
In terms of SEVCO financial implosion, what will ‘do them in’ is the desperation to stop 10IAR.
They will, I believe, stretch themselves beyond any financial skullduggery hitherto undertaken in their quest to do so. Should CFC achieve the Holy Grail, the state of Govania will hopefully finally crumble. I see no reason to change this opinion which I offered at the start of 2019/20 campaign.
Away from the financial aspect, desperation has already broken out within their ‘ranks’ – as sympathisers greet about the fixture list (e.g. Darryl Currie, Ally McCoist – please check the start of 9IAR season!), the distinct likelihood of Morelos being ‘on his bike is rarely mentioned, Kris ‘yir finished Leigh’ Boyd reckons they have the player resources to challenge all the way – to name but a few!
The media frenzy will only increase in proportion to the desperation to see CFC undone (how will they actually achieve this?). The paranoia traditionally associated with Celtic is becoming ever more pronounced amongst allies of SEVCO in the count down. IMHO, they are going round in ever decreasing circles.
As for me – I will ‘keep the faith’ by placing my trust in Pistol Pete, wee Lenny, the players (whoever they may be), and supporters.
wottpi 8th July 2020 at 18:36
However, everything points to them clearly walking a financial tight rope but still having adequate juggling skills in terms of managing to pay wages, pay taxes keep their facilities running and manage creditors.
…………….
I can’t remember just how much money they have gone through since 2012. Share issues, loans, then loans converted. Directors paying the electricity bills. Loans against security.Director after director trying to juggle the books.everything points to them clearly walking a financial tight rope. That is why when any number of points arise that it looks as if they will go over the edge. Back in 2010 to 2011 few expected them to go bust, but they hung in there deals were done behind closed doors to keep them alive, and they walked the financial tight rope for a few years until failure in europe brung the whole house crashing down around them. One bad decision by whyte in keeping McCoist as manager (he may have had no choice Golden contract and all that) was the catalist of their downfall. Just one bad decision by this board could see the end of this ibrox club. Who knows what may be going on to keep this ibrox club afloat, because there was a lot going on to keep the old ibrox club afloat.
reasonablechap 8th July 2020 at 09:50 Edit
How things change !
It now appears that squirrels can change colour and investigate an individual club kit deal on wikipedia when the football authorities are having an omnishambolic summer.
Peter and Neil would approve.
According to Neil, the decisions and actions of the SPFL have been vindicated #NaeShame
Peter has supported him and the SPFL executive all of the way, mainly because Peter got what he wanted from his friends. From the conflated and railroaded push in April all the way to the fixture list that was published on Monday.
At the GM (via zoom?),we hear that Peter gave a rousing speech against an Independent Inquiry. Peter prefers the status quo, silence, darkness and secrecy. It gives him a better platform to do his thing….Wearing his ECA hat, did Peter put in a word for Neil to get on the UEFA ethics committee? Mibbes aye, mibbes naw but I wouldn’t bet against it. Maybe Peter has a dry sense of humour.
Follow the Money.
Money is power, Peter has power and wants more money for club and self.
The rush to calling the Leagues was about various things but for Peter, the single most important aspect was access to CL qualifiers and potential group stage money. The losers would just have to take their medicine.
The fixture fix wasn’t random. It was about giving Peter what he wanted, the potential opportunity to maximise revenue and home advantage against direct rivals. The losers can go hang, including 30 clubs in the Lower Leagues that will be kicking off the same weekend. At a time when clubs must try to maintain interest and not lose fans, the SPFL should have ensured that as much focus as possible was on getting the lower leagues up and running.
I think that one club has a disproportionate and unhealthy influence within the Scottish football authorities. The rest can take their medicine.
At least for a moment, please ignore the need that so many on here have, to view everything through what Easyjambo called the Rangers prism and look at the current state of play.
That request is probably doomed but for those whose default answer to everything is something along the lines of “but TRFC 2012” ,then I’d invite them to look at Peter again and follow the money, Peter isn’t interested in Res12, it’s bad for business.
===============
If it wasn't for "Peter", who denied knowledge of the 5 Way Agreement and more, there would be no "Rangers " playing in Scottish football.
Be careful what you wish for.
easyJambo 8th July 2020 at 17:37
"Re the Castore shareholdings (J.Carter Sporting Club Limited)
Here is the timeline of what has been notified to Companies House."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
You will have noticed, eJ, that one of the shareholders in J. Carter Sporting Club Ltd is Tom Singh.
Singh is the 'founder', and was until quite recently the owner of New Look , with its 400+ retail outlets, and is up there with the mega-millionaires.
He sold New Look to South African Company, Brait, a company which declared its intention some months ago to sell Iceland, Virgin Active and New Look (it owned all three)on the market over the next few years. (It sold Iceland in June of this year, and at present New Look appears to be toiling somewhat.
Nigel Oddy is currently CEO of New Look. He was previously CEO of House of Fraser Group(resigned in April 2017)
House of Fraser is in Ashley's control.
I make two observations: Tom Singh has a known stake in J Carter , and may very well have an unknown stake that he may wish to back [The Articles of Association of J Carter Sporting club Ltd, in the 'definitions' section ( under TS and AS respectively )seem to give him and Anna Singh some kind of special place?]
and New Look might be attractive to Ashley with its retail stores all over the place.
Nigel Oddy's next move may be back to work for Ashley!
I really don't begin to understand all that (relatively small)world of big business, but it's good fun trying to make connections.
Links
http://www.inceconnect.co.za/article/brait-offloads-iceland-to-founder
https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2019/12/nigel-oddy-new-look-ceo-alistair-mcgeorge-chairman/
https://www.retail-week.com/fashion/brait-completes-new-look-acquisition-and-installs-new-chairman/5076444.article?authent=1
StevieBC 8th July 2020 at 12:45 Edit
John Clark 8th July 2020 at 10:52
…
It takes a certain kind of devilish malevolence for people to persist in sustaining and defending manifest and absurd lies over a period of 8 years or so…
==============
Since you mentioned “devilish”, JC.
My comment is not about TRFC or CFC – but about the Collective that is the senior, Scottish game: the 42 clubs.
As time goes by, nothing seems to change/improve in terms of governance – but one aspect is becoming painfully clearer every day.
In 2012 the Collective had a choice: change and improve – or lie.
The Collective made its choice: the Big Lie was explicitly or implicitly accepted by the 42 clubs.
In 2012 the Collective decided – in its wisdom – to sell the soul of the Scottish game (to the Devil? ? ).
A new club was not only fast tracked into the bottom league, but it was also accepted by the Collective as being the same club which was liquidated in shame.
IIRC, not one club has ever publicly stated or protested otherwise.
You, me and every other supporter had no say in any of this.
All we could do was threaten to withhold ST monies and support: this resulted in the new club being forced into the bottom league – rather than either of the top 2 leagues!
My attitude hasn’t changed since 2012: the Ibrox club should have been kicked out of Scottish football sine die – for sustained, industrial scale cheating over many, many years.
Instead of using the circumstances of 2012 as a catalyst for change in governance and the game, the Collective decided instead to drag the Scottish game down to the level of a corrupt, cheating, lying club.
All for money, of course. Business trumped sport.
Today the Collective desperately needs supporters’ cash to survive. Well, the clubs chose to be businesses first and foremost back in 2012. Businesses go bust and die all the time: pandemic or not.
Maybe this is a time of reckoning for the Collective: I’m not overly sympathetic towards its fate.
=============
Your words in bold, nail on the head.
The SPL rules of April 2011 which would be based on an earlier set of rules going back to SFA inception in 1998 had this provision
Relationship between Clubs and the League
A3.1 In all matters and transactions relating to the League and Company each Club shall behave towards each other Club and the Company with the utmost good faith.
The LNS Commission Decision does not mention rule A 3.1 or its prior history, but it does cover in detail the various player registration rules under Section D Players: Registration and eligibility that applied from 2000.
The matter of non compliance with the good faith rule was not directly addressed and it could not have been as evidence of such, in the form of HMRC correspondence accusing Rangers of fraudulent or negligence, was itself kept from the SPL in April 2012 by Duff and Phelps whose knowledge of the wee tax case DOS ebts was already known in Feb 2011. So an act of bad faith was covered up by another one.
Check https://res12.uk/part-5/ for the details.
Did the SFA/SPL know more about the DOS ebts in the early part of 2012? They seem to have on 17/21st Feb 2012 on the above Timeline, but LNS himself knew later in 2012 as can be read on same Timeline at 12 Sept 2012.
The conclusion from that Timeline is inescapable, the LNS Commission was set up to achieve a desired result which was Rangers did nothing dishonest for 10 years, because had LNS found otherwise it would have been impossible to allow them a place at the Scottish football table.
However thanks to the 5 Way Agreement and side letter and Celtic's subsequent failure to act on the evidence the SPL did not get in April 2012, provided to Celtic in 2014 (not to mention evidence of fraud in 2011 in Rangers UEFA licence application, a form of Rangers with no official taint of dishonesty survived on the back of a carefully constructed and subsequently protected myth, especially by Celtic whose supporters would have no commercial concerns to consider but were/are angry that the truth has been buried alive with Celtic standing at the grave side.
Auldheid
If it wasn’t for “Peter”, who denied knowledge of the 5 Way Agreement and more, there would be no “Rangers ” playing in Scottish football.
Be careful what you wish for.
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So we seem to agree that Peter can’t be trusted.
Although IMO, your point is flawed in that it’s the PLC at the root. If Peter wasn’t there to carry out the remit, Paul would just take his place.
Peter’s friends at the clusterf**k of an SPFL wish for greater executive powers to deal with potential covid related problems for 2020/21.
We have seen that during the covid crisis, Peter gets what he wants from his friends. Why should the rest of the clubs trust and grant greater powers to an arrogant yet omnishambolic executive with no self awareness ? #vindication!!
An organisation with strings attached, that this very week (fixture list), prioritised the needs of one club instead of 30 lower league clubs.
Ironic really, but the ideal scenario would have been to have held an Independent Inquiry into the SPFL. One way or tuther, this would have helped to draw a line of sorts under the levels of distrust that have arisen due to what happened before, during and after the smelly Good Friday vote fiasco.
I bring you back to the question of why Eric Drysdale thought the first thing Doncaster would do when the Dundee vote issue arose, was to call Peter?
Cluster One 8th July 2020 at 22:37
The 'one bad decision' can be applied to any club.
Hearts ended up where we are because Budge held onto Levein for too long, then Stendel continued to play our loan goalie from Man Utd for too many matches when everyone and their uncle could see he wasn't up to it.
Celtic's strong financial position has been aided by developing a system that has managing to make good choices regards signings that have been sold on for very good money. However a run of poor choices could have seen a different picture.
There are plenty of businesses out there operating with losses, Tesla for example, but do so because 'investors' keep putting money in.
For what it is worth I think the fall out from the pandemic will effect the amount of free cash the 'investors' have from their own business interests to put into the Ibrox club to make up the balance from the overspending.
Therefore if they want to avoid being a Gretna, Wigan or whoever, they will need to attract in new money or reduce costs.
The current unknowns are if income streams like the new strip deal will add monies to the coffers and how much of last seasons Euro income have they burned through already.
As you mentioned earlier, it is that big choice of going for bust to stop Celtic's 10IAR or looking at longer term sustainability that will need to be made.
If they do decide to go over the top this season then it will, to my mind, be a big big gamble.
If King is not able to dictate things, in his apparent and usual reckless manner, then I think they have a better chance of steadying the ship.
Auldheid@02:03
There is one small thing about the commissioning of LNS that is rarely mentioned but in my opinion should never be left out as it underlines what went on. It is clearly stated that when commissioned the remit covered the years that included the DOS but when the report was published the dates of the remit were excluding those years.
A decision was made to alter the years covered by the inquiry.
To me this is far more telling than actually ignoring the DOS. At what stage and why was it decided to do this?
While it may not have any particular bearing on the upcoming Arbitration case (partially due to the Belgians apparently taking different approaches for their league 1A and 1B) , for anyone interested there seems to have been further developments in Belgium.
As it stands:-
Netherlands – null & void, no champions declared and no promotion/relegation. Compensation sums paid to teams missing out on promotion and euro spots.
France – Relegation currently stands as court ordered footballing authorities to look at reconstruction but league came back to say it couldn’t be done. Relegated clubs may still go to back to court. (to seek compensation ???)
Belgium – Court dealing with competition law said decision to end season and apply relegation was unlawful but then seemed to reverse its decision. However now the Belgian Arbitration Court for Sport have stepped in an muddy the waters again. Note the focus on Sporting Integrity and the potential for teams to avoid relegation, even down to the last game of the season.
(Google translation direct from the Waasland-Beveren club website)
wottpi 9th July 2020 at 09:23
…
As it stands:- Netherlands – null & void, no champions declared and no promotion/relegation. Compensation sums paid to teams missing out on promotion and euro spots.
…
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No intention of going over the “null & void” argument for the clubs again – but from a paying customer perspective, would they not be due compensation / refunds for league tickets purchased?
Trying to think of a similar-ish scenario, I thought of the Mike Tyson v. Buster Douglas world title fight back in 1990 – when Tyson lost his first professional fight.
He was the undisputed, world champion with the 3 world championship belts. He lost the fight – and lost his titles.
However, what if, at the end of that fight the M.C. announced that in fact, Tyson hadn’t lost his titles because there had been a decision taken – during the fight – to NOT make this a world title fight?
(OK, I’m making assumptions here to make a point.)
You paid premium money for a ticket – in good faith – to watch the fight live or on Pay TV as advertised: a world title fight.
You probably wouldn’t be too pleased, feel a bit cheated – and mibbees want your money back?
Going back to the footy: “null & void” suggests – IMO – that Dutch supporters paid good money to watch league games, but it turns out later that they were not league games at all – but meaningless games, perhaps like preseason friendlies?
Additionally, ticket prices for league games can be significantly higher than for friendly matches.
Mibbees the ticket small print prevents supporters from claiming compensation or refunds for a “null & void” league? (I have no idea.)
But, if clubs can receive compensation in a “null & void” scenario,
then, surely the paying customers of voided league games should receive compensation as well?
Confused.com
Mickey Edward's
On the date change:
The answer is contained in my post regarding Duff and Phelps not providing the SFA with the HMRC correspondence.
The date chosen 23 Nov 2000 was the date of the earliest side letter Duff and Phelps provided to SPL for Andre Flo. Given it related to his DOS ebt that seems contradictory but in fact Flo after leaving Rangers got a payment under the big tax case scheme which took it into the same category as the majority LNS was to cover but his wages on first signing were via DOS ebt.
Based on side letter dates being what determined the range of the Commission then De Boers side letter of 30 August 2000 should have been the start of the range covered. De Boer moved to the BTC ebt payment arrangement in 2003.
There is a document stating the the start of the range was determined by the earliest side letter the SPL were given.
The SPL did ask for details of ALL ebts with side letters and associated correspondence. That would include the De Boer one which was included in a bundle of correspondence from HMRC dated Feb 23 2011 just after D&P took over as Administrators so it's not as if they were unsighted on the WTC ebts as the Timeline shows.
Whether deliberate or an oversight matters less than the ommission skewed the ToRs of the LNS Commission to a less serious breach of rules.
The SPL were informed of this in 2014 as were Celtic. The SPL eventually passed the matter to SFA who waited for the Supreme Court decision but when it was made they rejected SPFL attempts to revisit LNS but interestingly suggested SPL take the testimony of SDM at CWs trial re advantage of ebts to LNS but that was never taken up by SPFL or Celtic who also had the HMRC correspondence since 2014.
The illusion of balance created by separation of SFA as governors and SPFL as the governed is simply an illusion to mask the reality that they work hand in hand to keep the business of football continuing.
Reasonable Chap
I'd welcome any lesson learning enquiry that began looking at events from 2000.
That is where acting in good faith to member clubs got lost.
StevieBC 9th July 2020 at 11:22
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From whom though.
Who would be responsible for paying this compensation.
H, from the clubs who sold the tickets?
It's all hypothetical of course,
but I don't quite grasp why clubs should get any compensation from any source for "null & void" – and especially when there is no consideration for the paying punters.
Just seems inconsistent, IMO.
StevieBC 9th July 2020 at 13:20
I would have thought the ‘contract’ on buying a ticket or season ticket is that you are paying an entry fee to watch a game or a specified number / type of games (e.g league fixtures on a season book but not cup or euro games)
If a club’s game or games are cancelled then you, get entry to a rescheduled game (or similar), a refund or some type of compensation.
The ‘contract’ is unlikely to extend to the point of guaranteeing to determine the end result of the game or the competition the game relates to.
As Homunculus implies there is no real contract between fans and the SPFL, so who are you going to go after?
Compensation to the TV companies for not fulfilling a season, as per those contracts, is however a different matter and that’s why they are getting a payout for an incomplete season.
StevieBC 9th July 2020 at 13:20
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That seems a bit unfair on the clubs, they sold the tickets and have provided the service the customer paid for.
It's hardly their fault that the meaning of the games was retrospectively changed.
I know most in Scotland, have quite rightly offered a refund on games not actually played. I don't see what more they can realistically be expected to do.
Steve
Going back to the footy: “null & void” suggests – IMO – that Dutch supporters paid good money to watch league games, but it turns out later that they were not league games at all – but meaningless games, perhaps like preseason friendlies?
Additionally, ticket prices for league games can be significantly higher than for friendly matches.
Mibbees the ticket small print prevents supporters from claiming compensation or refunds for a “null & void” league? (I have no idea.)
But, if clubs can receive compensation in a “null & void” scenario,
then, surely the paying customers of voided league games should receive compensation as well?
=======================
Spectators paid money with expectation of watching a league game and came home after watching a league game. Nothing remotely pre-season friendly about them.
Compensation was paid to certain teams because of performance/results in those league games. This obviously means that league games did count for something.
The question of compensation to fans was/is more relevant to the games that weren’t played * and generally, supporters have financially supported their clubs and haven’t been difficult to deal with.
In other news, I noticed the Daily Record went with the following headline today…
“SPFL facing crisis rerun as Peter Lawwell perception problem sees clubs line up against new power proposals”
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/spfl-facing-crisis-rerun-peter-22325261
Surprisingly, it was under the Keith Jackson byline. Since Good Friday, he has/had been batting on behalf of the SPFL, his summer source.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53346709
Dundee Utd, Raith & Cove ask SPFL clubs to help pay legal costs
Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers have asked Scottish Premiership clubs to pledge £5,000 each towards their costs as they defend legal action taken by Hearts and Partick Thistle.
Championship clubs have been asked to pledge £2,000 each, with League One and League Two sides asked for £1,000.
The legal action by Hearts and Thistle, which is going to arbitration, could result in United, Raith and Cove having their promotions overturned.
United say the trio have spent £50,000.
The club believes costs are expected to rise to around £150,000 in the next week when the independent arbitration panel meets to decide if Hearts' and Thistle's claim on being reinstated to the leagues or awarded damages of £10m is heard.
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I can understand why they are doing it, it just seems like a strange one to me, verging on a civil war with clubs being asked to take sides.
Homunculus
I can understand why they are doing it, it just seems like a strange one to me, verging on a civil war with clubs being asked to take sides.
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You say “..verging on a civil war..”……. Peter’s friend, Neil, calls it vindication.
It would be interesting to tally up all of the fairly predictable costs incurred by the SPFL/clubs on the back of the railroading of a conflated resolution through, back in April.
This of course, wouldn’t include the substantial negative goodwill (bad blood) created, that will continue affecting the game, for some time to come.
For Doncaster (the teflon Don?) to survive in his 388K job, he’s going to need powerful friends.
#OmnishambolicVindication
You may have noticed that I’m a regular user of the word, omnishambles.
Its origin was the BBC comedy, The Thick of It and the Scottish government advisor, Malcom Tucker (Peter Capaldi), delivered the line with suitable Scottish venom.
However, within Scottish professional football, I really think the word has found a new home.
Imagine for a moment,…as a replacement for Only an Excuse,…BBC Scotland commission a 45 minute comedy with a similar idea to The Thick of it, but based on Scottish fitbaw administration throughout this Spring/Summer. Locations, the 6th floor at Hampden, club offices, newspapers, (pubs?) fan conversations , etc.
Peter (not Capaldi), could even play a Malcolm Tuckeresq role but he would mostly have to hide behind curtains or stay in the shadow.
Homunculus 9th July 2020 at 16:05
Yes it is all a bit strange. Especially when you consider the SPFL are effectively fighting the same fight to maintain the outcome of the resolution and also avoid paying compensation.
You can’t help but wonder if this just adds to the Hearts/Partick case by providing evidence (if indeed other clubs are found to be contributing to the fund) of the majority being overly keen to take actions that disbenefit the minority. Hardly seems to be acting in good faith to fellow members as required by the SPFL rules.
As discussed the whole situation has come down to who was where by fate at the time of the shut-down. For 0.0036 and 0.037 of a point it could be QoS and Falkirk opposing each other.
I’ve always seen the clubs affected by the resolution and counter petition as being innocent casualties to a poor decision by the SPFL board when other more balanced solutions were surely available.
At least the initial matter will hopefully be resolved soon but regardless of the result I can’t see that removing the bad feeling that is now within the game.
If they don’t get their skates on the Lord Clark’s offer of making court time available may come to fruition!!
On a lighter side two Arabs are trying to raise money for the legal costs by proposing a walk between Tannadice and Tynecastle. They were originally going to travel north to south but quickly realised they may not get a warm welcome on their arrival in Gorgie. They have now decided to travel south to north but while they say they will be starting at Tynecastle I can’t see them taking any risks.
South Queensferry anybody?