The last 12 months has seen a lot of water pass under the bridge. For a newcomer it is very hard to see past what the MSM are currently printing – I hope this article will go someway to rectifying that, and allow those who didn’t follow this story from the start to get a basic understanding of the views that have been formed on Rangerstaxcase.com and on TSFM. Further, I hope it refreshes the memories of those of us who have followed the saga since the early days and focuses our attention on asking key questions that remain unasked or unanswered.
I have provided links where possible throughout the time line. I have also highlighted in red where the story seems to end, a question remains unasked, or no answer has been forthcoming. I may also have missed some critical points – feel free to mention these and we can add as we go.
The Rangers Saga as it happened…
June 2001: Christian Nerlinger joins Rangers. Little be known to the rest of Scottish football he will be the first player paid by an EBT (an Employee Benefit Trust) which will later be declared illegal (as administered by Rangers) by HMRC.
Summer 2004: Jean Alain Boumsong rejects English Premier League sides to sign for Rangers on a free transfer. Six months later he is sold (January of 2005) to Newcastle in an 8million deal . This deal is later investigated by the City of London police who raided Newcastle and Rangers in June 2007.
A later report from Lord Steven remarked:
“There remains inconsistencies in evidence provided by Graeme Souness – a former manager of the club – and Freddy Shepherd – apparently acting in an undefined role but not as a club official – as to their respective roles in transfer negotiations.”
April 2010: HMRC hit Rangers with a tax bill of 24m before penalties for non payment of taxes on monies remitted to players and staff via the EBT scheme.
27th March 2011: A new blog appears on wordpress named ‘Rangerstaxcase.com’. Little did we know the impact it will have on Scottish Football.
6th of May 2011: Craig Whyte buys Rangers FC PLC for 1gbp from David Murray, with his holding company Wavetower taking over 85% of the Football club.
Mid-May 2011: Craig Whyte renames Wavetower to the ‘Rangers Football Group Ltd’, the holding company for Rangers FC PLC. He immediately claims he has cleared the Rangers debt to Lloyds Bank and is ready to invest in the team. He quickly removes Alastair Johnston and Paul Murray from the Board and suspends Martin Bain and Donald McIntyre.
5th June 2011: RTC uncovers a MG05 document filed at Companies House showing that Rangers have assigned 4 years of season ticket sales to another company. This is later denied by Craig Whyte, but later on turns out to be the mechanism by which Whyte funded the takeover.
19th June 2011: Craig Whyte is asked about the RTC blog, remarking:
“I’m aware of a website that has dedicated itself to talking about our tax case, I’ve looked at it. What they’re saying is 99 per cent crap”
August 2011: Rangers are knocked out of Europe by Maribor. A seemingly irrelevant event, but one that leaves a £15m hole in Craig Whytes budget. One that he meets by not paying the tax man. RTC questions in October where this money was coming from…
10th September 2011: Court papers from Martin Bain, related to his employment case against Rangers explode across the internet (papers in full here). Within them there is a plea from Bain’s lawyers to freeze the claimed compensation as they feel there is a question mark over the clubs solvency. Further it exposes the assignment of ticket sales to a 3rd party and shows that the debt owed to Lloyds Bank has not been discharged completely. RTC analysis’ of these ‘Bain papers’ is concluded with the following:
While Rangers’ supporters might not be in any mood to thank anyone for helping shed light on this situation, it is good for their club (if not its current and previous owners) that this information is in the public domain. It is especially good for our national game as a whole that we discuss the problems of the last decade openly. Rangers supporters need to ask themselves why they have meekly stood by while the future of their club has been imperiled and whether their “friends” in the media have done them an injustice by becoming complicit in the cover-up of this story.
Unfortunately, despite the information being exposed to all, the Rangers fans failed to listen…
October 2011: In the first mainstream feature on the case, the BBC air a documentary proving that Craig Whyte had been banned from holding a director position in UK companies for 7 years for ‘putting assets out of the reach of creditors’. BBC are banned from Ibrox and Whyte claims he will sue the BBC for presenting false evidence – but later admits that he was disqualified. Rather amusingly he admits this the same day he reveals Rangers have reduced their debt to 14m…. (they hadn’t)
The SFA stay silent on the matter and the writ received by the BBC in February 2012 has since vanished.
30th November 2011: Rangers PLC release un-audited accounts for the year 2010/2011 revealing profits of 2 million pounds and NET Assets of 76m. The accounts are NOT signed by an auditor leading to rumors all is not well in Ibrox.
January 2012: RTC explains in detail Succulent Lamb Journalism… the phrase becomes a defining point of the story, along with ‘internet bampots’, coined by Hugh Keevins.
18th January 2012: The ‘Big tax case’ concludes. We still await the findings…
13th February: Rangers file papers at the Court of Session giving notice of their intention to enter administration within 7 days…
14th February: HMRC petition the CoS to allow them to appoint administrators. After a short hearing, HMRC withdraw the motion and Rangers PLC promptly appoints the now infamous Duff & Phelps as administrators. On Valentines eve, Craig Whyte stands on the steps of Ibrox and announces to the angry mob the unthinkable… Rangers FC PLC is now in administration.
That evening it is confirmed that HMRC had pushed for administration over £9 million in unpaid VAT, PAYE and NI since the Whyte takeover. This later rises to 18m.
99% what Craig?
15th February 2012: The SPL immediately deduct Rangers (IA) 10 points for entering administration, as per league rules. Possibly the last time they follow their own rules throughout this saga.
Bizarrely, Rangers (IA) push ahead with the proposed signing of Daniel Cousin on wages of 7500GBP/week. The SFA make no comment, despite this being against the rules for a club in administration.
David Murray, in typical fashion, professes surprise at events which RTC warned about 12 months earlier while Murray was still in charge. Murray also says:
“Firstly, there has been no decision, and there is no present indication as to the timing of a decision, from the first-tier tax tribunal concerning the potential claim from HMRC of £36.5m excluding interest and penalties.
“Secondly, legal opinion on the strength of the club’s case remains favorable.”
21st February: Daily Mail confirm what RTC told us last year, by confirming that Ticketus bought 100,000 season tickets at Ibrox over the next 4 years. It was this money that Whyte used to buy the club. Rangers fans are up in arms. Even though they ignored the warnings a year earlier.
The SFA announce that Lord Nimmo Smith will chair an inquiry into the circumstances leading to administration.
25th February 2012: The Sun on Sunday launches by printing what they claim is a ‘side letter’ given to Rangers players. A financial expert tells them:
“Number one, you are going to get £122,000 and number two you get £1,200 for a first-team game.
“It equates to salary as far as I am concerned. I would say this sort of letter will be a central thread in the big tax case.
RTC will later confirm they are correct.
27th February 2012: The SFA confirm they will start an investigation into these ‘side letters’
3rd March 2012: D&P admit Rangers have no chance of making Europe next season, as they admit audited accounts by the 31st of March would be almost impossible.
However, in a baffling move, one month later D&P reveal they are ‘appealing’ the decision to ban Rangers from Europe. UEFA respond by saying
“Licence applicants must demonstrate that as at March 31, 2012, they have no payables overdue towards their employees or social/tax authorities as a result of contractual/legal obligations to their employees that arose prior to December 31, 2011.”
8th March 2012: Lord Nimmo Smith forwards his report to the SFA Judicial Panel. The report contains prima facie evidence that Craig Whyte was not a ‘fit and proper person’. A hearing is set for the 29th of March. This is later postponed at the request of Whyte. The full Nimmo Smith report has still not been released by the SFA.
9th March 2012: With no redundancies in sight, Rangers players agree to pay cuts, ranging from 75 – 25%. It is later revealed that these are not ‘pay cuts’, but pay deferments which must be repaid in the summer, otherwise Rangers will be in breach of contract. No info is forthcoming in the summer on whether this was paid or not.
5th April 2012: D&P reveal in their first creditors report that Rangers debts could top 134m, with HMRC claiming 93m of the total.
The report also details debts to football creditors of around 2.3m. It also details debts of hundreds of creditors, such as that for Susie Thomson – a face-painter from Glasgow owed 40quid. These were the real human losers in this story.
Interestingly, assets are valued at 116m, as per the 2011 accounts.
23rd April 2012: The SFA’s independent panel finds Rangers (IA) guilty of 5 different breaches of SFA rules relating to disrupte charges and are handed a 160,000GBP fine, the maximum available and a 12 month transfer embargo. The judicial panel state that the offenses committed by Rangers were only one step “lower than match fixing”, and reveal that they considered the punishment of suspension of license or expulsion from the SFA. They determine a fine would not be enough given the seriousness of the charges and thus impose a transfer embargo.
In the judgement, the panel make reference to evidence given by the Rangers Financial Controller who said invoices to Ticketus were such that they ” appeared as though Clip Art computer processes had been involved in their creation.” The FC tells the panel he had never seen them.
24th April 2012: The uproar from Ibrox is loud, with the Bears taking their anger out on the SFA. McCoist makes a rallying call, demanding to know “who these people are”. He makes an ‘apology’ the next day for putting their lives in danger, but stops short of apologising for forcing names to be released, despite his club previously voting in a motion to keep names confidential.
As a result, a poor director at Raith Rovers takes his family into protective police custody, and Raith are forced to hire round the clock security after arson threats to their ground. Finally, in August 2012, McCoist is charged by the SFA for his remarks. He has decided to challenge the charge and the case is ongoing.
Rangers blame the SFA for not stopping Whyte earlier, despite warnings before he took over from RTC.
“Why did the SFA not investigate when they said they had suspicions before Christmas rather than wait until the club went into administration?
9th May 2012: American tycoon Bill Miller walks away from a proposed offer for Rangers (IA) after being subjected to threats from the Ibrox crowd and discovering a “30 million black hole” in the Rangers accounts.
11th May 2012: Rangers reveal they will appeal the transfer embargo and fine imposed. The SFA inexplicably name the 3 man panel that will oversee the decision, going against SFA rules agreed by ALL clubs, including Rangers (IA).
13th May 2012: Reports suggest Charles Green, backed by a global consortium (still unknown!) has bought shares from Craig Whyte for 2quid. He is given an exclusivity period to propose a CVA worth 8.5m.
17th May 2012: SFA uphold the transfer embargo against Rangers (IA) . The SFA state that it was “proportionate to the breach, dissuasive to others and effective in the context of serious misconduct, bringing the game into disrepute.”
The Rangers Fighting Fund along with D&P announces they are paying a lawyer to challenge the SFA in the Court of Session. SFA say nothing.
22nd May 2012: It is now May, 3 months since the SFA/SPL announced an investigation into side letters and unauthorized payments to players from Rangers FC. RTC once again provides evidence of a ‘prima facie’ case by revealing details of Christian Nerlinger’s EBT letters.
23rd May 2012: BBC air a damning documentary revealing details of EBT payments and side letters to Rangers players since 2001. They also uncover emails showing that D&P’s David Grier seemed to have prior knowledge of the Ticketus deal. D&P and Craig Whyte threaten legal action, but none is forthcoming. The BBC also hint at payments made to managers not employed by Rangers at the time, including Graeme Souness.
29th of May 2012: D&P reveal their ‘CVA’ proposal. One that was doomed to fail, offering creditors little or nothing. It also revealed if it was rejected then the ‘assets’ would automatically be sold to Charles Green and Sevco 5088 for just 5.5m (the ‘new’ value of the assets. No evidence has yet been presented on how these ‘assets’ were valued.)
On the same day (seeing the pattern of bad news being overshadowed by good news yet?) Rangers ‘win’ at the Court of Session, with the court ruling that the SFA had no powers to give a transfer ban. They decide to refer the decision back to the SFA judicial panel to decide on a new punishment.
Lawyer Gregory Ioannidis remarks:
“If the Scottish Football Association decides to not take action against Rangers, in relation to Rangers submitting the application to the Court of Session, then Fifa can actually penalise the SFA, and the individual club, and the national team of Scotland, and impose an international ban on all of them.”
No action is ever taken by the SFA or FIFA.
12th June 2012: HMRC release a statement saying that they will reject the CVA. Given that they have over 25% of the debt, it makes the creditors meeting scheduled for the 14th irrelevant.
“A CVA would restrict the scope of such action. Moreover, the liquidation route does not prejudice the proposed sale of the club. This sale can take place either through a CVA or a liquidation, so the sale is not being undermined, it simply takes a different route.
“Liquidation will enable a sale of the football assets to be made to a new company, thereby ensuring that football will continue at Ibrox. It also means that the new company will be free from claims or litigation in a way which would not be achievable with a CVA.
“Rangers can make a fresh start.”
14th June 2012: The CVA is formally rejected. D&P immediately sell the assets to Sevco 5088 Ltd and Rangers FC PLC (IA) cease to operate as a football club. The assets are later assigned to Sevco Scotland Ltd. SPL rules state that a club that ceases to function as a football club should immediately relinquish its share and membership. This does not happen.
15th June 2012: Ian Hart denies being part of the Green consortium buying the Rangers assets. Green had earlier named him when pushed to name his backers
So starts the misinformation campaign from Sevco.
17th June 2012: Rangers FC are excluded from the fixture list for the forthcoming SPL season, replaced instead by ‘Club 12’. It is widely reported, that if Sevco Scotland are refused a place in the SPL, then Club 12 will be Dundee. The SPL give no reasons why.
17th – 27th June 2012: Walter Smith, Allan Stewart and Stephen McKenna, and then John Brown all turn up in the papers making ‘bids’ for the assets which Green has already bought.
22nd June 2012 – Lord Hodge seeks report from D & P re: a potential “conflict of interest”, after information given to him by the BBC.
25th June 2012: The BBC reveal that Sevco Scotland will not be granted admission to the SPL, after 6 clubs publicly declare their opposition, after season ticket sales fail to materialize as fans make their views known.
27th June 2012: John Brown stands on the steps of Ibrox and pleads with Rangers fans not to buy season tickets until Green reveals who are his backers and who owns Ibrox. This question remains unanswered. Brown is now silent.
4th July 2012: Despite weeks of pressure from the SFA, SPL and MSM, the SPL clubs reject the application from Sevco Scotland to join the SPL.
Stewart Regan warns of Armageddon for Scottish Football if Sevco are not admitted to SFL1 instead. We are still waiting.
5th July 2012: Stenhousemuir reveal details of a talk given to them by Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan, where SFL clubs are threatened with bankruptcy if they don’t vote Sevco Scotland into Division 1. Figures presented are ridiculed by the internet bampots.
Clyde and Raith Rovers emerge as the cheerleaders for sporting integrity in the lower leagues, with both clubs openly speaking out against what they describe as “irresponsible”. Raith Chairman Turnbull Hutton suggests the SFL clubs send their mascots to vote on the proposal for Sevco to enter SFL1.
9th July 2012: the SFA refuse international clearance for players who decided to leave Rangers (IA) when the assets were sold, as were their rights under the TUPE laws. This decision has yet to be explained, and is contrary to legal advice.
Meanwhile, Sevco director Imran Ahmad, when asked what he felt was the exit price to sell Rangers/Sevco was, replied:
“On a bad day the club is worth £50m.”
Of course, they had just bought the club for just 5.5m, and still had no league place for the forthcoming season.
13th July 2012: Expiry of deadline for submission of report on D&P conflict of interest. News suggests that Lord Hodge is on holiday. No news has been heard since and the administration continues…
13th July 2012: Sevco Scotland are allowed to start life in the 3rd division, subject to gaining an SFA licence, after SFL clubs vote to reject the proposal to allow Sevco Scotland into the 1st division. There is no sign of Armageddon.
15th July 2012: FIFA write to the SFA asking for reasons why former Rangers IA players are having their registration transfer blocked. The players claim their free agents and have rejected the TUPE arrangements with Green’s new club. As of August Allan McGregor’s move to Turkey is still onhold as they wait on international clearance. We await an answer, as we suspect FIFA do to.
24th July 2012: Ian Black signs a 3 year deal with Sevco Scotland. It is unclear how he is registered or who he is contracted to.
9pm, 27th July 2012: Just 48 hours before the first scheduled match for Sevco Scotland the SFA grant an unheard of ‘conditional’ membership to Sevco Scotland. It is reported that Sevco Scotland have agreed to a 12 month transfer embargo, starting on the 1st of September 2012. They also agree to pay all football debts of Rangers (IA).
Sevco, playing in strips of Rangers (IA) defeat Brechin City in extra time to record their first ever victory. Ian Black plays as a trialist, despite signing a contract with Sevco Scotland earlier in the week. It is further unclear whether players are registered to Rangers IA or Sevco Scotland, and if the former, how?
31st July 2012: At an EGM of Rangers FC PLC (IA) the directors change the company name to Rangers 2012 (IA). At the same time Sevco Scotland pass a resolution to change their name to ‘The Rangers FC Ltd’. Companies house data shows that Charles Green owns more than 10% of The Rangers FC Ltd, despite his claims that no one person would own more than this. No one from the MSM thinks to ask this question.
3rd August 2012: The Rangers FC Ltd are granted full SFA membership, after having the membership of Rangers 2012 (IA) transferred to them. Under what rules this was possible is not clear.
ESPN follow SKY in agreeing a new deal with the SPL for TV rights. No sign of Armageddon yet.
15th August 2012: Dundee Utd in a short statement reveal that they have not been paid by Sevco/TRFC for the unpaid debt relating to last season’s Scottish Cup with Rangers (IA). Despite an agreement with the SFA to pay these debts, Charles Green blames the SPL for going back on a agreement made in May to pay this out of money owed to Rangers (IA). Dundee Utd, and other European clubs remain unpaid, as does the poor face painter from Glasgow.
It is unclear how the ‘conditional’ membership works if the ‘conditions’ have not been met.
STV further report that SPL clubs still do not know how much TV cash they are going to get from the new SPL SKY deal. The SPL make no comment.
17th August 2012: Lord Nimmo Smith is appointed to chair an independent commission into Rangers (IA) making undeclared payments to players from 2001 onwards. They are unlikely to sit before October.
22nd August 2012: ‘The Rangers’ announce they have signed a joint venture with Sports Direct for the merchandising rights. Companies House shows that the new company, ‘Rangers Retail’, is owned 100% by SportsDirect.com
23rd August 2012: There is still no word on who are the investors in Sevco Scotland. The SFA have not released any details to explain how Green passed the fit and proper person test. No details of proof that Sevco Scotland have the finances to last the season. The question of where are Ticketus is silent. Lord Hodge has still not returned his findings on a conflict of interest in the appointment of D&P. The FTT result is still awaited, just like BDO await the liquidation of Rangers 2012 PLC. Meanwhile, Stewart Regan resurfaces to announce details of league reorganization in time for next season, reducing Scotland to 3 leagues from 4.
Oh… and there is still no signs of Armageddon.
28th August 2012: Campbell Ogilvie finally breaks cover to talk about how league reconstruction was on the agenda long before Rangers ran into problems. He managed however to proclaim;
To be fair, nobody really saw the situation coming
Yes Campbell… just like you didn’t see the side letters.
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timtim says:
August 30, 2012 at 10:51
I punched the roof when the 2nd goal went in last night, advancing to the next round was
more than I could have hoped for but we did it . Results like this dont happen that often its a bit like winning the cup itself but to be fair Dundee did go down to 10 men.
As for Celtic ,I thought the fans were fantastic ,a real 12th man for the club and a credit to the Scottish nation
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I also believe Timtim….it wasn’t so long ago that the the Scottish media were declaring it would be a long time before they would see a Scottish club compete in the CL group stages again….
Jangles and Jobbie must be due some therapy…
Hoopy 7 says:
August 30, 2012 at 11:10
Thanks for your thoughts on that.
This site is called ScottishFootball Monitor not RangersTaxCase.
How does anyone know what is off topic and what is on, I thought open debate was allowed.
Stick to what is corrupt within the corridors of Hampden.
Ok, so what is the corruption within the corridons of hampden?
Who makes up the SFA board, the one that empowers Regan to pursue his agenda?
Hoopy 7 says:
August 30, 2012 at 11:10
1 0 Rate This
Good Morning.
Somewhat perturbed by the calls for CL money to be distributed, apart from the fact that it appears well off topic, strange that it raises its head at this time and better discussed elsewhere.
Stick to what is corrupt within the corridors of Hampden.
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Hoopy – it is only being discussed because with Celtic now qualifying (congrats btw) it becomes a live issue. It was also discussed previously on the old blog several times as one of the distorting and double-edge “benefits” it brings to Scottish football.
Perhaps if we can get rid of the corrupt within the corridors of Hampden and those who serve to further the interests of the Glasgow clubs then we might get Football Officials who will take closer scrutiny at the financial distribution and imbalances within Scottish Football and more radical changes like gate-sharing or how UEFA monies impact might actually get some air-time and discussion at a higher level where real changes can actually be proposed and voted on?
I live abroad, dont have cooncil telly, but am tuned in to BBC Scotland and STV. Both stations have been struggling to run stories about Sevco on a par with Celtic (or indeed Hearts and Motherwell.)
The transfer ‘stories’ re Sevco will have dried up by the weekend.
The Ramsden and Scottish Cups will ensure that Sevco will pop up now and again until, God forbid, they get knocked out. Then what?
I actually hoped for the long awaited ‘nuclear’ event and believed that, that would finally put an end to all the shenanigans. On reflection, I now believe it will be the slow, lingering death many on here foretold.
The morale at Sevco is already in the sewer and it will take a group of players with extraordinary strength of character, to even attempt to play good, committed football, at stadia where they simply do not wish to be. Its going to be a long cruel winter.
What we will witness will be palliative care, not an executioners axe, but the ultimately, the same result.
I was really just chucking a few arguemtns out there in response to the suggestion that silence meant approval of Auldheid’s comments. I am open to debate, as indeed I was when the subject came up on RTC, but echoing Danish Pastry’s point that as Celtic have finally, after 4 years (3 of which they were of course not Scottish Champions as despite What Was Rangers being apparently technically insolvent they still bought those titles) it will raise hackles to bring this debate to the fore today, when we should be celebrating a Scottish team getting into the group stages.
Oh and btw Enfakid 10:36: “It has been widely reported that Celtic will benefit by circa 12m by simply participating in the CL” – Celtic had to get through two qualifying rounds, beating the league champions of Finland and of Sweden (Sweden are ranked 29 places above Scotland in the World Rankings btw) to gain entry to the CL proper, so I think saying “simply participating in the CL” is rather minimising the team’s accomplishment.
Serious Questiojn: Are there any ideas for generating income in Scottish football other than just redistributing Celtic’s gate money or Celtic’s prize money? What about the windfalls from the other teams in Europe? Are they also ripe for redistribution? Or is it only Celtic int he cross-hairs?
CL money should be kept by the team that qualifies. There will always be disparity in wealth between clubs. The equality is the laws that all teams play under (first time post)
Yes the glasgow clubs, this is where your real SFA corruption lies. Please, Celtic and Rangers are treated no differently by the SFA, if any other manager had conducted themselves in the same manner as Lennon and Mcoist they would have been hammered by the SFA.
The corruption is the SFA bending over to allow the Glasgow teams to rewrite the rule books and bully the other associate members.
Get back on topic – lets take care of Sevco first and then we
can discuss other matters 😉
Far to many people getting ahead of themselves in here.
MSM,SFA,SPL all predicted Aramageddon
and now you are predicting that Celtic will dominate Scottish football
We are only 3 games into the league ……….. calm yir jets guys
Oh and btw Enfakid 10:36: “It has been widely reported that Celtic will benefit by circa 12m by simply participating in the CL”
Yes and what were their respective coefficents, would you have been suprised if Celtic had not progressed.
If you win the championship you go through as champions it is coming second that is the big problem, ala Celtic v Arsenal or Hearst v Spurs.
Fairly predictable that the Trolls would rear their heads today
enfakid says:
August 30, 2012 at 11:32
Not quite sure about the attempt to tie a cheating, tax dodging outfit that last year employed a manager who has with every press conference tried to bully or threaten innocent members of the public and who has no managerial accomplishments to date other than being a pal of Cardigan and a “witty” jack the lad on Question of Sport – or maybe you mean the current T’Rangers in the bottom rung of the SFL – with a team that has managed to bring success without going into massive debt and have a few good Scottish stars in the making (Watt and Forrest to name a few)……
As James Sanderson would say to you
And your point is caller?
Seamus says:
August 30, 2012 at 11:39
What’s with the Off Topic pish about Celtic and CL money?
Bottom line they got into the CL proper by not cheating.
Trolls trying to deflect a great night for Celtic.
Get back on topic – lets take care of Sevco first and then we
can discuss other matters
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This site is getting worse by the day.
and now you are predicting that Celtic will dominate Scottish football
Yes and Celtic are what 50:1 on to win the SPL? The bookies rarely make mistakes.
My point was if you allow a team, any team, to become so much richer than their competitors then, the other teams cannot afford the top transfers and wages, and so the gulf widens. Just take a look at the sevco shower in the 3rd division, do you honestly believe that rangers do not have an unfair advantage?
That is not good for a competitive league.
jocky bhoy says:
August 30, 2012 at 11:28
Serious Questiojn: Are there any ideas for generating income in Scottish football other than just redistributing Celtic’s gate money or Celtic’s prize money? What about the windfalls from the other teams in Europe? Are they also ripe for redistribution? Or is it only Celtic int he cross-hairs?
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Jocky – it’s not about taking Celtic’s this or Celtic’s that – of course the same rules must and would apply to all teams. Firstly we have to decide is the current set up working? Does it lead to more positive benefits for Scottish football than negative ones? Most would argue that the policies and changes made over the last quarter century have harmed Scottish football more than they have benefited it.
Would examining the possibility of sharing attendance revenues benefit more clubs than it would harm?
would examining the possibility of sharing some portion of the UEFA payment monies provide more benefits than it would harm?
would examining the possibility of actively encouraging and incentivising our clubs to pro-actively buy, sign, and play more national team & home produced players provide more benefits for our clubs and national teams than it would harm them?
of course Celtic would be affected both positively and negatively by some of these changes or proposals as would other / all clubs to some extent.
It’s not about taking money from Celtic and just giving it to others – it’s about creating an overall structure that is better than the current one which apart from rare successes like last night’s shows more obvious failings than successes and even celtic’s much welcomed victory last night was achieved by a team that had 9 of the 14 players used by Celtic neither Scottish nor home produced. A welcome Club success but a National failing imo. 🙂
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/30/jjb-shares-plunge-rescue-deal
knock on effects of the saga (at least in some part) continue …
enfakid says: August 30, 2012 at 11:42
“Yes and what were their respective coefficents, would you have been suprised if Celtic had not progressed”
I’m a Celtic fan and I would not have been at all surprised had Celtic not progressed. In fact as eminent a Scottish manager as Sir Walter Smith of Cardigan would not have been surprised had a Scottish club not progressed to Champos league.
What I think is unusual, given the oft reported parlous nature of Scottish football by MSM and Scottish footballing authorities alike that the press, and you, seemed to think Celtic’s qualification was a foregone conclusion, I can assure you no Celtic fan thought so….
The Invisible Line says
The real problem here is that this is not a site for all scottish football supporters to engage in, it is a Celtic site.
It might actually be benificial to you to know that Celtic are not some sort of paragon of vertue but are considered by most other teams as equally obnoxious as your Glasgow cousins.
What the SFA has to do is make sure all teams are treated equally, and that no one team dominates, there must be wage caps, transfer budgets and equal share of revenue. Teams must be allowed to compete on a level playing field.
enfakid says:
August 30, 2012 at 11:32
Yes the glasgow clubs, this is where your real SFA corruption lies. Please, Celtic and Rangers are treated no differently by the SFA, if any other manager had conducted themselves in the same manner as Lennon and Mcoist they would have been hammered by the SFA.
The corruption is the SFA bending over to allow the Glasgow teams to rewrite the rule books and bully the other associate members.
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You’ve opened a can there kiddo….make yersell a cup of tea and wait for the incoming… 🙂
Sorry enfakid you won’t win debates or arguments by insulting people so i gave your post a merited thumbs down. I actually agree with much of your second paragraph but this is NOT a Celtic site albeit many do support Celtic but Hearts, Hibs, The Rangers, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, East Fife, Accies, Queens Park etc all have fans & posters than regularly contribute.
I share some of your aspirations about changing certain factors within Scottish football to hopefully help generate some stimulus or improvements especially for more longer term considerations like the quality and number of national team eligible players playing in our top clubs and also the amount of full-time football clubs we can sustain without creating a massive financial gulf between rich, middle & poor.
But insulting people won’t help you to win any friends or influence people.
I argued on the old RTC site that I would like to see Celtic keep their gate money from the CL but have the TV income/prize shared out with all FULL members of the Scottish League in order to sustain smaller clubs and to develop better competition. I even proposed that this money be ring-fenced specifically for the development of Scottish talent.
But as an Idealist and something of a Socialist, I am well aware that my view is a minority one amongst Celtic fans and that this scenario is extremely unlikely because we have businessmen running our game and not football men. So as a compromise, what I would like to see is Celtic distributing the CL revenues by purchasing the best Scottish talent available rather than going abroad; and by spending more on scouting and boys club development within Scotland. At least this way Scottish football can benefit. I think there were four Scots on the pitch at full time last night. I’d like to see that number increased.
And to those who might say “off-topic” I would say that the chances of Sevco getting away with it and becoming successful will be reduced if Scottish Football can be seen to prosper without their corrupt influence. Rangers killed themselves and tried to take everyone else down with them. I would like to see Celtic take the moral lead in recognising that it has a responsibility to more than just its shareholders and to act for the good of the game as a whole.I truly believe Scottish football is better off without Rangers and would be better off without Sevco or anyone of that ilk. I think if Celtic dished out some prize money from the CL, we might hasten the day when the establishment corruption is gone for good.
enfakid says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:01
The Invisible Line says
The real problem here is that this is not a site for all scottish football supporters to engage in, it is a Celtic site.
It might actually be benificial to you to know that Celtic are not some sort of paragon of vertue but are considered by most other teams as equally obnoxious as your Glasgow cousins.
What the SFA has to do is make sure all teams are treated equally, and that no one team dominates, there must be wage caps, transfer budgets and equal share of revenue. Teams must be allowed to compete on a level playing field.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Marx had similar ideas…but sadly… human nature just didn’t take to it…
It’s all fine and dandy being fair and equal with other peoples money… yea we can all do that…and do it with great enthusiasm… but when it comes to your own…different matter….try it…this weekend…go to the neighbour with the nice car in the drive…
Chap his door and say…I don’t have as much as you…so me and the Mrs have decided it’s only fair that we create a fair and equal balance to our wealth…so we suggest that we get to use your nice shiny new car Tuesday..Thursday and Saturday (cos a go fitbaw on a Saturday) and we should pool our wages and split it evenly…
Let us know how that chat went once you’ve been discharged form Hospital…
enfakid says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:01
The Invisible Line says
The real problem here is that this is not a site for all scottish football supporters to engage in, it is a Celtic site.
It might actually be benificial to you to know that Celtic are not some sort of paragon of vertue but are considered by most other teams as equally obnoxious as your Glasgow cousins.
What the SFA has to do is make sure all teams are treated equally, and that no one team dominates, there must be wage caps, transfer budgets and equal share of revenue. Teams must be allowed to compete on a level playing field
————————————————————–
The obnoxiousness of Celtic to others is neither here or there nor is this a “Celtic” site. Of all the people who are prepared to engage in substantial and meaningful dialogue about Scottish football Celtic fans are certainly in the majority but they are not the only ones and for you to suggest otherwise is misleading.
On your other point about a level playing field, it would be fantastic if all teams were equal but you and I know that will never be the case. Should East Stirling be given the same amount of money that Hearts get?
The days of amateur football and corinthian spirit are long gone and will never return no matter how much you yearn for it.
night terror, should we all drive the same cars and have an identical house ? stop talking nonsense.
There has to be an advantage to winning the league and doing well in europe rather than rewarding poor teams sitting on thur bahookie and waiting for the money to roll in.
Campsiejoe,
Yeah the trolls will be trying to upset the nature of the blog,
especially today 😉 Also as TSFM and contributors expose
Sevco and all that are associated with them, they will rear
their ugly heads and opinions to try and deflect the truth.
Please posters don’t take the bait. As the Aberdeen fan said
the other day life without Sevco makes football a better place ;-).
tomtom says:
The days of amateur football and corinthian spirit are long gone and will never return no matter how much you yearn for it.
——————————-
It was very much alive last night tomtom
🙂
paulmac says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:16
1 0 i
Rate This
enfakid says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:01
The Invisible Line says
The real problem here is that this is not a site for all scottish football supporters to engage in, it is a Celtic site.
It might actually be benificial to you to know that Celtic are not some sort of paragon of vertue but are considered by most other teams as equally obnoxious as your Glasgow cousins.
What the SFA has to do is make sure all teams are treated equally, and that no one team dominates, there must be wage caps, transfer budgets and equal share of revenue. Teams must be allowed to compete on a level playing field.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Marx had similar ideas…but sadly… human nature just didn’t take to it…
Let us know how that chat went once you’ve been discharged form Hospital…(edit)
========================================================================
Paulmac…pure dead brilliant…nice to see your “Glaswegian” sense of humour has not been softened by your time in Surrey…!
Sorry if the non-Glaswegians are miffed, but be honest…!
The days of amateur football and corinthian spirit are long gone and will never return no matter how much you yearn for it.
Is the the NFL and other sports in the USA and Canada amatuer? Ok they are franchises but it gives all teams a better chance of competing.
As for me insulting people I apologise if the truth hearts but you are not considered any better than rangers. I would suggest supporters from teams outside of glasgow, despise celtic as much as rangers and probably find that celtic supporters claiming SFA corruption as quite ironic.
Rather than calling for a club to simply distribute some of their European income – the kind of giveaway that runs contrary to sensible and responsible operation of a business and, rightly, riles many of the clubs supporters – why not call for some form of incentivised exchange of value?
Many clubs in Scotland will be facing financial difficulty over the coming years. If its considered ‘just’ that European ‘windfall’ money achieved by the club(s) at the top of the pile be partly distributed through the broader Scottish game, then what would be offered (by the rest of Scottish football to the clubs that achieve European qualification) to make it worth their while?
Can I suggest? – to open the discussion on this :
– first dibs on any young Scottish talent that arises from the ranks of the ‘lesser’ clubs in subsequent years at a reduced price … which might in the past have seen the likes of James McCarthy or Steven Fletcher transfer to Celtic instead of EPL
– much more favourable arrangement of dates for domestic games that allow the clubs involved to focus their preparation on the European games that would be so important
– …??
TSFM is blatantly not a Celtic site.
It insist so, merely makes us suspicious of the rest of your argument. The issue of European money in Scottish football can be discussed in a civil manner without the need for partisan insults.
For the record, I think any club earning money from a European campaign should be entitled to keep all the money they generate, they have earned the right to it from their previous league campaign, but as a quid pro qo I would like to see all finishing positions in the SPL awarded equal prize money.
Strange we’re almost into September and still not sign of any imminent SPL reform(including my personal bugbear 11-1). I’m starting to come round to EJ’s assertion that everybody’s favourite abstainer has been ‘bought’ with a seat on the SPL board.
paulmac says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:16
Paul in member owned organisations like the SFA & SPL & SFL are it is the members who collectively decide how the revenues are to be split and apportioned and the rules pertaining to these, and over time changes can be proposed and amendments voted on and/or accepted to become the new de-facto status quo. Several such changes have happened over the lifetime of Scottish football.
The members voted in and voted out such things as salary capping, gate-sharing, financial distribution, the split between member clubs and division sizes. All these things are open for debate and remain possibilities for clubs to change or vote upon should the will of the majority ever decide to do so.
What I find a bit disturbing and strange is the sudden lack of any desire or urgency to change any SPL rules or voting structures now that RFC(IA) or their successor club are no longer members and the 11-1 voting requirements that enable or disable changes despite this being an apparently urgent matter for the non-Glasgow clubs as recently as May this year.
Stop feeding the Troll……….
Its strange these people arrive right on cue to devalue the achievements of a team innocent of Tax dodging, debt evasion, collusion, and all the other skullduggery associated with Sevco. Just a small tad Jealous, Me thinks.
I would like to know Enfakid what riches Celtic are plundering from participation in the SPL or any of the cups in Scotland? Did Hearts and Kilmarnock both cup winners get less money than Celtic would’ve? Is there a massive gulf in prize money between winning the SPL and finishing second?
There is opportunity for Scottish clubs to increase income now that The Rangers aren’t around. The real income is to be had through selling tickets and merchandise as far as Scotland. Maybe you should concentrate on that instead of implying that Celtic aregetting a financial leg up from governing bodies.
I too want to see Scottish clubs do better and be able to generate enough income to be competitive but at the same time live within their means. Unfortunately SPL clubs aren’t exactly doing themselves any favours at the moment, 4 clubs out of the cup already to less wealthy lower division opposition. Surely the clubs have the financial means to prevent exits like that or are the early exits the fault of Celtics too?
Carl31 says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:28
Carl – I can agree with fixture scheduling that is more sympathetic and helpful to all our European participants although this will rankle with some of The Rangers persuasion who will argue that they were given no such sympathy on their UEFA Cup run but that’s water under the bridge and what matters is what we do from here going forward not old gripes from the past.
I can’t agree that players should be bought for anything less than full market price indeed it has been the ability via dark arts of Club like the former Rangers ability to tempt or lure Scottish Clubs players to Ibrox for less than full market price that has not only advantaged Rangers (& others) but has also simultaneously weakened other clubs in the process – even more galling when at times it has appeared to be a deliberate ploy to weaken a rival or remove a nuisance when the player involved is subsequently nothing more than a bench-warmer for much of his time at his new club.
Scottish clubs exchanging players for full market value HELPS improve the lot of Scottish clubs particularly if this money creates and stimulates an internal transfer market.
For example Celtic buy a player from Aberdeen who then buy a player from St Mirren or Killie who then buy some players from Dundee & Hamilton who then buy from Ayr United & Stenny and the money flows down through the Scottish game in that way. That is what used to happen. One memorable example being Aberdeen sold Stevie Archibald who bought them Peter Weir from St Mirren who bought the buddies Frank MacDougall from Clydebank who bought them x from y from z. The Scottish transfer record between clubs was broken three times in as many weeks that summer as a big fee from an English club filtered it’s way down and around Scottish fitba.
Hoopy 7 is correct of course, but to answer your question, there is the main board of seven members. Four of these are full-time, policy-making, agenda-setting, strategy-developing members.
There are two advisory boards one for the professional game, one for the non-professional
The four horsemen have membership on all boards, presiding over all. I think you’ll find that’s where the power lies, but I may be wrong.
It’s all on their website. In this instance, nothing is hidden.
Surely a Clue as to the purpose of this blog is in its title, to monitor what’s going on in Scottish football…
Are we monitoring Scottish Football by talking about whether Celtc should keep or distribute CL money? Frankly, no.
We need to concentrate on all aspects of what needs monitoring; and in no particular order, I’d say this is the SFA, the SFL, the SPL, the MSM including the BBC, Duff & Phelps, BDO, SDM and of course, Mr Charles and his Sevco franchise.
A great con is being attempted, fans of all Clubs need to be vigilant that the same level of scrutiny and analysis is applied to everything this season and beyond, as it was from the birth of RTC.
If there’s another story where obvious corruption and deception is being attempted to benefit one club above all others then focus and attention can shift to that, but for the time being there’s only one show in town.
Yesterday BRHT gave a fantastic analysis of D&P’s ability to cost creditors £4m. There’s not a peep from the MSM on this, not a single word. Also this week I learned that it’s standard practice for SPL refs to ref Div 3 games. Again I didn’t read a word about this on this online or in the press, but it’s not difficult to think that ‘special treatment’ is continuing to be administered to one Club.
The question remains, why? And from whom? This is the purpose of this blog, to answer these two particular questions in relation to any action where ‘rules’ are not being applied ‘without fear or favour’. It really is that simple, surely?
It is unfair and just plain daft to discuss Celtic and CL money like it exists in isolation.
It doesn’t.
The laws of economics dictate that any club who gets lucrative CL money will (if they invest it wisely) dominate their own leagues and keep qualifying at the expense of the other clubs in that country. That is what we see every year.
The CL prize money is a UEFA wide problem and in creating the CL where 4 teams from the top leagues routinely qualify UEFA made a horrendous strategic error – even if the top clubs were the ones who pushed it through.
The sad thing is the centrally negotiated TV and sponsorship money could have been substantially re-invested in grass roots football across Europe rather than simply funding over inflated wages to the international mercenaries who chop and change between the top teams.
Sir DM was not the only one in Europe who coveted the CL and he won’t be the last casualty of spending money he didn’t have, to try to get something he could never get.
Is there a massive gulf in prize money between winning the SPL and finishing second?
No but there is a big gulf between finishing 2nd and finishing 3rd indeed the 3rd place team gets prize money closer in value to the team finishing last 9 places below than the team just 1 place above them.
How do you explain that? How do you justify that? How do you change that? Why don’t we change that? and also change the thought processes and mechanisms that lead to it in the first place?
SpecialsWon says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:50
I agree with all or most of your well thought out and well constructed post however we also can surely debate about what kind of Scottish football we’d like or aspire to if even only to see how far removed we are from such a scenario and how the current actions of those who need to be ‘monitored’ take us closer or further away from such ideals? Not everybody will agree with everything but surely we can debate it in a fair and civilized manner? Of course that doesn’t legitimize deliberate off-topic trolling or whataboutery but the structure of Scottish football, and what Scottish football exists for and aims for is surely a genuine topic for discussion and how current affairs impact on that? 🙂
Again with the gate sharing/euro pot distribution. Is this money to be split equally between all 42 clubs or should it only be split amongst the top league. Why shouldn’t the rest of the top league clubs not hand over gate revenue to lower league clubs and allow these clubs a better chance at top league football. Anyone proposing gate sharing should be asking for a central pot from all leagues and this total distributed equally amongst everyone, otherwise its just an opportunistic smash and grab for their own club, and not about a fairer game for all of scotlands clubs at all.
Lets lobby for a good chunk of the sfa’s new windfall instead, they are the ones who think we face armageddon after all.
Sorry I missed a bit in reply to E’kid. The four horsemen are C. Ogilvie, S. Regan, R.Petrie, and (I’ve forgotten his first name) Mr Rae. They chair all Boards.
Would it be fair if all the scottish teams helped pay off rangers debts.
Absolutely not, of course not.
So is it fair that the more affluent clubs should be expected to fund otherwise unsustainable business models for other clubs.
What happens when clubs have adjusted to the new model and celtic have a very poor season, no euro football, star players sold and falling attendances. Will clubs end up in debt and blame celtic. Will other clubs be able to pressure our manager out the club cos he has a bad season and affected the other clubs revenue.
Again with the gate sharing/euro pot distribution. Is this money to be split equally between all 42 clubs or should it only be split amongst the top league. Why shouldn’t the rest of the top league clubs not hand over gate revenue to lower league clubs and allow these clubs a better chance at top league football. Anyone proposing gate sharing should be asking for a central pot from all leagues and this total distributed equally amongst everyone, otherwise its just an opportunistic smash and grab for their own club, and not about a fairer game for all of scotlands clubs at all.
Lets lobby for a good chvnk of the sfa’s new windfall instead, they are the ones who think we face armageddon after all.
Yes the hearing is today.
How will McCoist be able to concentrate on tonight big game with this ongoing harrassment?
When will these people stop picking on the select few?
Any news? Any reports of any news?
Chris McLaughlin says
“Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug
McCoist to appear before #SFA judicial panel at 1230. Green around 1400. Both charged with not acting in best interests of the association.”
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/129005-rangers-pair-charles-green-and-ally-mccoist-brought-game-into-disrepute/
layman00 says:
I would like to know Enfakid what riches Celtic are plundering from participation in the SPL or any of the cups in Scotland? Did Hearts and Kilmarnock both cup winners get less money than Celtic would’ve? Is there a massive gulf in prize money between winning the SPL and finishing second?
I think you might find there is a huge difference between 2nd & 3rd. Like I say the SFA and SPL are complicit to aide Celtic and Rangers. No one else matters, thats why it is ironic that this site concentrates on rangers, gentlemen Celtic during Lennon’s purile refereeing outbusts was an embarrement to Scottish football.
As for your question as to why Celtic could not win the Cups, it was probably down to over confidence. Same as Ross County gubbed you, Oh sorry not allowed to speak the truth.
Charlie Brown
I agree totally the money should be distributed more evenly and hopefully these changes take place. If this was introduced then the real financial incentive for doing well in the league comes from European participation. Scottish clubs need help though to achieve European qualification. That is precisely why I think Scottish Football governing bodies should be bending over backwards to ensure that Scottish participants in Europe do as well as possible. European football is the best revenue stream for a Scottish club to increase income yet for some reason the SFA are still reluctant to change the start dates. Has anyone at the SFA ever provided a valid reason why this is not possible?
In these times of financial hardship surely it is in the best interests of the clubs? Not only for European participants but all the rest of the clubs as its not exactly beneficial to attendances to be playing over the festive period in the depths of winter.
As a long suffering Hibs supporter since 1962, I know what it feels like to be a supporter of one of the wee “diddy” teams within Scotland. While we are generally subjected to a roller coaster of results and emotions due to the inconsistencies in the team, there are the occassional moments of utter joy and celebration such as beating Hearts 7-0 and 6-2, together with 3 No Scottish League Cups, 2 No Dryburgh Cups and 1 No Summer Cup victories. The fact that these moments of celebration happen approximately every 10 years and are counterbalanced by shatttering defeats in 4 No Scottish Cups, 5 No League Cups and too many other defeats to remember, does not reduce the desire to support my team.
While the last 25 years in Scotland have been dominated by Celtic/Rangers(Deceased) and now for the forseeable future by Celtic, due to their huge resources, it is essential that supporters of all clubs continue to back their club, in the hope that a memorable day will arrive for their club in the near future.
The added advantage in SPL for the next 3 years is that we do not have suffer 2 No visits of Rangers to Easter Road each season and be subjected to the 3500 “minority” of Ranger’s supporters singing songs from their sectarian and bigoted songbook. Unfortunately those clubs within the Scottish League, will now be subjected to this verbal abuse from the “minority” of Ranger’s supporters, until the police and the football authorities take the actions required to eradicate this cancer from Scottish Football.
rab says:
August 30, 2012 at 13:09
Rab if we had proper prudent, stringent and meaningful financial rules for Scottish football and it’s clubs and oversight mechanisms to detect miscreants then No Scottish club would be able to factor & price into their budgets any unfunded liabilities so the situation you describe would simply never occur and indeed neither would the Rangers Tax Case have happened or certainly not been allowed to have persisted for a decade ultimately ruining that club & damaging others.
Sepia says:
The four horsemen are C. Ogilvie, S. Regan, R.Petrie, and (I’ve forgotten his first name) Mr Rae. They chair all Boards.
Yes very good, have you not forgotten someone, or is it a Freudian slip,
I think and I have stated before that CL money should be divvied up. 50% to the club that earned it and, once we have a clean and legitimate governing body ( I know), then 50% put in a pot by the SFA for Youth Development or wider development of the game. I do not believe that other clubs should directly receive any monies for the achievements of another club – the game itself possibly – other clubs definitely not!.
We desperately need a functioning and professional Scottish football academy – the clubs are too small to fund these on their own-and the talent that needs nurturing has to be pooled to receive proper coaching and guidance. We seem to be producing fewer and fewer players of significant quality. I believe that these academy products could be registered with the SFA until the age of 18 and each club could be given up to two or three every year on a loan basis in the last year of that set up.
At present however talk of divvying up CL money is unacceptable. We have no legitimate organisation or governing body to do it – and the process of dividing these resources could lead to a weakening of the club or clubs that earned this amount.
I think if ( and I think it’s a vast and lengthy process ) a structure of Scottish football free from the influence of RFC and its followers could lend itself to such thinking. I believe however that this is unlikely – ever as Rangers is a tentacled cultist mindset whose followers riddle Scottish society and not just fo otballing organisations .
At the moment we are governed by a cabal of cheats who rip up their own rule book and ignore offences committed to suit one club’s interests. There is no way any CL money can be distributed at present.
Why should Celtic contribute through the organisational structures of a body whose governance has allowed it to be cheated systematically for decades. I am aware that all other clubs have also been cheated but unless the SFA is cleansed then no distributive model will be possible.
@MattLindsayET: In today’s @TheEveningTimes . . . Rangers players squared up to each other after Berwick flop – as manager Ally McCoist looked on. #rfc
Dear oh dear
Before we start on doing what we pay our Mafia for doing ,finding funds to run Scottish football,lets make sure we clear the desk first of current issues,deal with the mess they have created in not administrating our clubs properly ,RFC [IA] ,the monies that they have denied to member clubs is immeasurable and god will only know how this might have changed football in Scotland ,will they try and let this be swept under the carpet because it should not be ,we need to know in some form what was denied to member clubs by a member club and for how long.
Onto distributing other clubs success ,we dont have to go too far back in history to when the current Scottish CL representitives where only saved at the 11th hour from being history themselves ,where was the clamour from all and sundry outside of CFC to help save an institution,no reply to that one,no someone came along with a bold 5 year plan that is the result of where they are today, and not without going into serious debt ,but with the right people at the helm guiding it through to what they deserved last night,again going back a shorter period in time when at a xmas time it looked at last that we had a Hearts team that would at least split the big 2 and might have even finished first under their manager Mr Burley at the time before they imploded,why should Celtic fans pay for this and it is Celtic fans due to putting their hard earned money into the club when asked,it never fails to amaze me when the other Scottish clubs reach a final and then DEMAND a fifty/fifty of the ticket allocation due to their support ,the same support that fails to turn up at home games,what are these clubs boards doing to harness this missing weekly support,again I dont here a reply ,no lets take Celtic supporters cash , shareholders who put their money in when asked some clubs boards need to grow a set and start managing to a level that can create a long term plan to bring their club forward ,what happened to the Aberdeen and Dundee Utd of the seventies ,why did they not sustain the level reached in Europe and at home ,other smaller nations seem to have overtaken Scotland in being able to sustain entry in Europe and reap additional income,I am going to stop here as my key board is starting to smoke ..
layman00 says:
August 30, 2012 at 13:17
0 0 Rate This
Charlie Brown
I agree totally the money should be distributed more evenly and hopefully these changes take place. If this was introduced then the real financial incentive for doing well in the league comes from European participation. Scottish clubs need help though to achieve European qualification. That is precisely why I think Scottish Football governing bodies should be bending over backwards to ensure that Scottish participants in Europe do as well as possible. European football is the best revenue stream for a Scottish club to increase income yet for some reason the SFA are still reluctant to change the start dates. Has anyone at the SFA ever provided a valid reason why this is not possible?
In these times of financial hardship surely it is in the best interests of the clubs? Not only for European participants but all the rest of the clubs as its not exactly beneficial to attendances to be playing over the festive period in the depths of winter.
==========================================================================
Totally agree about doing our utmost to help all our European participants especially as it is the most lucrative opportunity for our clubs. I don’t even have that much of a problem with clubs keeping their European spoils provided it was being used for the betterment of Scottish football and not just the individual clubs involved. If that money is being used to help pay & retain the best Scottish players in Scotland so they can participate in high level matches as Mulgrew, Brown & Forrest have done then fine. That ultimately benefits Scottish football. If Celtic or Rangers want to spend 2 or 3 million quid to buy Johnny Russell or Chris Humprhies etc that’s also fine as long as they are paying fair market prices as that also benefits the selling club getting the most they can for their better players and hopefully that money filters down through our game or improves our clubs financial position which should improve their ability to compete or retain their better players for longer in future and more able to receive good value for them.
What i don’t think is beneficial is what we’ve seen over the last 10-15 years when the UEFA money was largely spent to assemble and maintain teams & squads stuffed full of foreign players bought and paid at great expense with money that ultimately went straight out the Scottish game and no lasting benefit was derived from it.
Try to disrupt the blog with gate sharing debates to shatter the cameraderie, if that fails, attack neil lennon.
Pitiful.
Enfakid
I’m lost with regards to your comments regarding Celtic not winning cups. My post mentioned SPL clubs being knocked out this week to less wealthy lower division opposition. Your view point is that clubs in Scotland are not being successful because of Celtic but clubs are throwing opportunities away to lower opposition. How does that sit with your Agenda?
I am open, as with all contributors on here, to opinions and ideas of ways to improve Scottish football, to make it more competitive and attractive to supporters. Sadly you have turned your posts into a Celtic hate campaign when the real point is to try and bring about change
rab says:
August 30, 2012 at 13:33
Try to disrupt the blog with gate sharing debates to shatter the cameraderie, if that fails, attack neil lennon.
Pitiful.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Or revert to the time-honoured tactic of blame Peter Lawwell for everything. Go on ‘our kid’, you know you really want to say his name but don’t dare for what will surely follow (follow)….
Charlie Brown
Again I agree with your sentiments, money would be better invested in Scottish based players who are just as good as some of the dross that is been imported over the years. I think clubs are coming around to that way of thinking purely because costs of players outside of Scotland are far too high. Any players now imported should be with a view to improving and providing a sell on profit.
The financial climate might mean that we at last take seriously again nurturing and progressing our youth players. Hopefully this in itself can help generate income into Scottish football which will remain in Scottish football.
Lets see what kind of balls the SFA have today in dealing with
McCoist and Green. IMO it will be a slap on the wrist and they’ll
be told they’re letting their “Brothers” down ;-).
Charlie Brown.
We could still have all those safety measures in place without redistribution of finances, this would have clubs operating within budget and living debt free.
The Iceman says:
August 30, 2012 at 13:22
Iceman – it depends if you believe top-down or bottom-up systems is the best way to create & provide footballing talent. National & Club Academies are obviously beneficial to an extent but there are limits to centralised control and it’s effectiveness. Football talent can of course be improved but ability emerges and is revealed. There is also the conudrum about how and why we created better players before we had any of these facilities yet H.McLeish thinks we need a centralised top-down approach and half a billion pounds in infrastructure investment. Funny how a Politician would come up with that kind of solution?
I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a documentary film about Cristiano Ronaldo’s life but here is a kid born in Madeira in the mid-1980’s and who for the early part of his life learned to play football on a dusty old basketball court playing street football with his friends and no modern facilities or even comparable with SPL Clubs facilities today yet such a basic environment allowed a dedicated kid to play, practice and reveal his talents just as previous generations of Scottish players did before them. Most of it is about the desire and dedication of the individuals involved not facilities.
Champions League money needs to be divided as equally as possible amongst the CHAMPIONS of each UEFA league before it can be shared between clubs in those respective leagues. Celtic might not qualify for the CL for another 10 years because the competition is rigged to favour the bigger leagues. CL money is being pumped into the biggest leagues like EPL and La Liga and should not even be called CHAMPIONS league. UEFA need to change the entire system before we can even consider changing distribution amongst the individual leagues.
Enfakid, I accept that this forum may well appear to be ‘Celtic minded’ on certain pages, but stick with it and you will find fans of various clubs very much part of the debate.
Regarding the finances of Scottish football, I thought Kenny Shields made an interesting observation last night (honestly Kenny Shields!) when he pointed out that many promising youngsters are now as likely to continue as a part-timer in the lower leagues, with another income from a trade or other career, giving them a more stable income with more secure future prospects. This may well partially explain why the League Cup produced some of the results we have seen this week. Not good news for a team seeking rapid promotion through the lower leagues!
Scottish football is witnessing a levelling down and it may well be an essential period in our renewal; we may well need to regress before we can advance. The problem of a bloated Celtic is a difficult one to deal with and simply taxing them will only breed resentment, but there are a number of things we could do to help facilitate a renaissance.
-Summer football, significantly reduce lost revenue from postponements, significantly reduce costs for under-soil heating and floodlighting. Be well into our season when we play Euro qualifiers giving us a much needed advantage at both ends of the season. Better pitches = better football
-Single authority, bin the SPL, SFA, SFL and save millions in Admin an attempt to establish credibility in the wake of the current debacle. (Turnbull Hutton as President, and Stuart Cosgrove as CE. ;))
-Pyramid structure, 2 leagues of 16 fed by regionalised lower leagues. Include in the Highland and Junior (if they want?)
-Brand Scottish football as a single entity with every ticket, scarf, programme carrying a tax of 2% which is used to fund community coaching for every club in the new pyramid structure, they lower the league finish the more hours of coaching awarded. The coaches would be trained a Largs where we appear to still have a reputation for producing high quality coaches. The nation wide proliferation coaching positions may also encourage more youngsters to commit to the game as a professional career.
-Betting rights and TV rights would have far greater potential if not in competition with the big leagues.
Feel free to tell me I’m an idealistic fool, I’ve been called much worse!
David Murray attempted to reduce Scottish football to a nursery to feed his own vanity project of Glasgow Rangers, who would consequently be Scotland’s representatives in a European League. The way to do this was to create a footballing power that was untouchable domestically. The Bosman ruling and the lifting of the ‘three foreigners’ rule aided this vision, and by the early to mid 90’s it appeared as though Murray had judged the zeitgeist perfectly. The big misjudgement was the lack of appetite for a European league beyond the current Champions League format and the inescapable realisation that TV money would remain linked to national TV audiences, huge advantage for big nations, and direct kick in the nads for small nations. I often wonder too about the significance of Murray’s bedfellows Bernard Tapie and Silvio Berlusconi losing interest and moving on to fry somewhat bigger fish! The failure to extend the Euro league format left Scottish football with Celtic and Rangers entombed in a small nation set up with a big nation infrastructure, and more importantly big nation expectations, with disastrous consequences for Murray and fatal consequences for Rangers.
Woops! Somewhere in cutting and pasting the 3rd paragraph became the last, sorry!
paulmac says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:16
enfakid says:
August 30, 2012 at 12:01
The Invisible Line says
The real problem here is that this is not a site for all scottish football supporters to engage in, it is a Celtic site.
It might actually be benificial to you to know that Celtic are not some sort of paragon of vertue but are considered by most other teams as equally obnoxious as your Glasgow cousins.
What the SFA has to do is make sure all teams are treated equally, and that no one team dominates, there must be wage caps, transfer budgets and equal share of revenue. Teams must be allowed to compete on a level playing field.
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Karl Marx had similar ideas…but sadly… human nature just didn’t take to it…
It’s all fine and dandy being fair and equal with other peoples money… yea we can all do that…and do it with great enthusiasm… but when it comes to your own…different matter….try it…this weekend…go to the neighbour with the nice car in the drive…
Chap his door and say…I don’t have as much as you…so me and the Mrs have decided it’s only fair that we create a fair and equal balance to our wealth…so we suggest that we get to use your nice shiny new car Tuesday..Thursday and Saturday (cos a go fitbaw on a Saturday) and we should pool our wages and split it evenly…
Let us know how that chat went once you’ve been discharged form Hospital…
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As one of the few remaining practising Marxists in Scotland I have to challenge your suggestion that Marx would have been in favour of wage caps.
Its not about taking money from one club and handing it out willy nilly to everyone else. There is a post above this one which explains clearly that for the game to benefit in Scotland there has to be a fairer distribution of income and open and transparent administration of the game. Stuart Regan gets shot down on here all the time and rightly so but often the pint that he is simply the “hired hand” gets missed.
enfakid says: August 30, 2012 at 13:21
Sepia says:
The four horsemen are C. Ogilvie, S. Regan, R.Petrie, and (I’ve forgotten his first name) Mr Rae. They chair all Boards.
Yes very good, have you not forgotten someone, or is it a Freudian slip,
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II think you need to take a look at the SFA website and read that with the full comment I made. Also everything you raise has been discussed on here ad nauseam. Why not read back through the posts. I’m certain you really do not want to waste your time regurgitating same old same old. I sure do not have the time.
I’m lost with regards to your comments regarding Celtic not winning cups. My post mentioned SPL clubs being knocked out this week to less wealthy lower division opposition. Your view point is that clubs in Scotland are not being successful because of Celtic but clubs are throwing opportunities away to lower opposition. How does that sit with your Agenda?
No I do not have that agenda, what we can see is that teams in lower divisions can beat teams in higher divisions, if the situation is correct. However as can be seen by Rangers; Brechen; Peterhead; etc it is not necessarily true.
rab says:
August 30, 2012 at 13:48
0 0 Rate This
Charlie Brown.
We could still have all those safety measures in place without redistribution of finances, this would have clubs operating within budget and living debt free.
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Indeed we could and should – if i was Ogilvie or Regan and having had the biggest financial failure in Scottish footballing history on my watch i would be shouting from the rooftops and demanding that our football and our clubs put their collective house in order and certainly before external bodies like Politicians and the ripped of and rightfully aggrieved Tax-payers demanded it.
but i also think we need to look at the financial distribution as well. Revenue sharing was the norm across all competitions in Scottish football from 1890 until 1981 until we changed it.
Was that a positive change? what have the consequences been? have they been positive?
In the early-mid 80’s crowds at Celtic Park & Ibrox were just over 30K on average and crowds at Pittodrie and Tannadice were 20K and 15K but now the attendances in Glasgow have doubled, the crowds in the North East have halved so has their ability to compete and the cumulative effects of 25+ years of increasing financial imbalances has meant our overall club and national team performances have declined. Even positive events like Celtic’s result last night and Celtic & Rangers UEFA Cup Final appearances were achieved with teams with as many or more non-Scots than Scots.
To my mind something has to be changed because the current set up is clearly not working?
Anyone notice this:-
The Clydesdale Bank Premier League game between Celtic and St Johnstone has been put back 24 hours to Sunday November 11 to avoid a clash with Rangers v Peterhead.
There is a similar scenario on the weekend of September 22/23 when Celtic v Dundee will remain on the Saturday and the Rangers v Montrose fixture will now be played on Sunday.
Sunday November 11, 2012
Celtic v St Johnstone, 3pm
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Where else does a 3rd division side have priority over the Pemier league.
I take it moving it to Rememberance Sunday is not seen as a contentious decision?
The wheels of justice……how slow are they?
The sfa is as sickeningly corrupt and bent towards one club and one club only as ever….as usual….as expected. Why why why is Campbell Ogilvie still in situ? This is incontrovertible evidence that the corruption is institutionalised and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
The fix is in……the drip is firmly in the vein….the somnolent pace of the dirge will continue to emanate from Hampden until it’s time for some wheeze re. Chucky & The Sevcovians……Scotland’s premier tribute act.
If I wasn’t in such a good mood I’d be sick.
enfakid: you raised a fair point, then your true emotions got the better of you. You are simply trying to spread discontent amongst fans of different clubs. You have an obvious agenda, however you really are wasting your time, the posters on here will not be manipulated playground s**t stirring.
miki67 says:
August 30, 2012 at 14:17
Miki – Campbell Ogilvie is still there because nobody we know of, not from Celtic, Raith Rovers, Hearts, Clyde or anybody else that Iam aware of has demanded that he resign or motioned for this to happen?
I’ve seen people within football ie some SFL clubs call for the removal of Regan & Doncaster but they all remain strangely silent on Ogilvie ………why?
Perhaps now is not the time – perhaps that will come later after the FTT results or BDO findings?
miki67
? Has something else happened? Did chuck and ally get off?
Fifa,
Well put.