The increasing attacks on social media by the main stream press, fuelled in some respect by David Murray’s vague threats of litigation against bloggers, has brought into sharp focus the challenges facing the Blogosphere. It also brings into even sharper focus the prescience of Stuart Cosgrove’s assertion that this summer’s ‘epistemological break’ had begun to marginalize the Scottish sporting wing of the MSM.
The reality of that assertion is embedded in the misreporting of the FTT decision as a victory for RFC, falsely alleging that those who operated the EBT scheme had been exonerated, that RFC had ‘done nothing wrong’, and consequently accusing ‘vindictive anti-Rangers bloggers’ of playing a part in the downfall of that once great Scottish institution. It is also evident in Tom English’s rather bitter and one-dimensional anti-RTC polemic today in the Scotland on Sunday. Had it been entitled “Self Preservation”, it may have rung a few more truth bells.
I am not of the belief that the MSM is an instinctively pro-Rangers estate, but I do think that their reportage of the FTT is more geared towards discrediting the newly emergent forces in the social media area than it is towards rehabilitating the public image of RFC or David Murray.
However despite the contempt in which many people here hold the MSM and Murray, English does have a point that we would be foolish to ignore. No-one can deny that we do have a duty to ensure that we are responsible in how we present ourselves to the public. Now that our (and others’) success as a real and creative alternative has spurred the MSM into action, we are subject to greater scrutiny than at any time in the past. Our view is that we have to be pro-actively engaged in setting a standard for ourselves that is above those that the MSM have set for themselves.
We have on TSFM an audience exponentially greater than the number of posts. That presents us with a great opportunity to get our message across, but it also burdens us with an increased responsibility not to fall into the trap which has besought the Succulent Lamb Brigade.
We are a very different animal from RTC. RTC him or herself had information and insight to bring to the table that the administrators of this site do not. The founder and former admin of TSFM had the idea that the talent available from posters on the RTC – not just RTC himself – should continue to have a forum in a post-RTC world, and that those talents could be used to challenge the myths regularly represented as facts by lazy journalists in the MSM.
We have at our disposal on this blog forensic analysis of legal, media and corporate matters. We have an abundance of creative minds, all passionate about the game of football AS WELL AS a partisan love for their chosen club. With all that talent and expertise, we can make an impact on the agenda by challenging the misinformation and substandard journalism of the MSM, and our finest moments are when we do that. We lose authority and influence when the debate is impeded by bald accusation or innuendo backed up with little more than an historical view of our country.
Our biggest impact (and largest audience) is to be found when when our experts have collectively torn apart those myths presented as truths by the MSM, and when we have asked the questions that the MSM either can’t or won’t ask or answer. Those are the things that have driven the traffic to this site, and many of the emails we get congratulate us on that.
Our credibility plummets though when we go down the partisan path. We also get literally hundreds of emails from fans who ask that we cut down on the comments of those who are merely venting outrage at how they see the game being mismanaged (mainly so they can access the important stuff more quickly), and from fans who are just fed up with the constant name-calling – almost exclusively aimed at Ally McCoist and other Rangers figures.
If we claim to be an intellectual and journalistic rung or two above the likes of the Red Tops (not to mention to be decent and respectful of others), we need to refrain from the name calling and accusatory culture. We can ask questions, put items for debate on the public agenda, point out apparent irregularities and anomalies. In rushing to judgement of others from the comfort of the glow of our own laptop screens, we are guilty of the same lazy journalism we see in others. Name calling (all good fun of course on a fan site) is just a lazy thought process and as English says, comes across as “nasty”.
We never saw RTC as a fan-site. The original administrator of this blog never saw TSFM as one either, and nor do we. In order to succeed properly, we need sensible fans of ALL clubs to be comfortable and feel secure in our midst. Of course we are not breaking any laws, but can anyone honestly say that we have evolved into a welcoming place for Rangers fans?
TSFM is not about hounding any one club out of existence or into shame or infamy. In the Rangers saga we have sought to ensure that the football authorities play fair with everyone and stick to their own rules. One well kent RTC contributor, and no friend of Rangers, often said that if the FTT found in favour of Rangers we should move along and accept it. Well they did find in favour of Rangers in the majority of cases. That may not suit many of us, but we are the Scottish Football Monitor, not a Judicial Watchdog. We can say why we disagree with the decision, but criticism of the process through which the decision was arrived at is beyond our purview.
Since the accusation is often made in the MSM, we should state, unequivocally and unreservedly, that we are NOT anti-Rangers. Their fans face the same issues as the rest of us and they are welcome here. We are however, equally unequivocally against the gravy train journalism of the Scottish Football Wing of the MSM (with one or two honourable exceptions).
If the Anti-Blogateers in the press are correct, the popularity of the TSFM will recede as the Rangers Tax case reverts to the back pages before disappearing for good. However I do not believe that they are correct. I don’t believe that Scottish football fans are only motivated by either hatred – or even dislike – of one club. I believe we are more concerned with the game itself than the pot-stirrers in the MSM would have us believe, because we understand the interdependence of football clubs.
But we also understand that the people who run football clubs do not always run their clubs for the benefit of the fans. In the business world, that may not be out of the ordinary, since businesses are run for the benefit of shareholders.
However football reserves for itself a special place in the hearts of people in this country. If the people who run football clubs want to retain that favourable status, they have to be accountable to the fans.
The difficulty in holding them to account though, is that the cosy relationship cultivated between club directors, managers and players and the press renders the access to information a closed shop, and the information itself is heavily filtered and spun.
As long as we keep asking questions in response to the fruit of that cosy relationship, we will be providing people with an alternative angle and viewpoint, allowing them to come to their own conclusions, and not the one the MSM post-presser huddle delivers to us wrapped up in a bow.
For the SFM specifically, we believe that to have any influence, we need to enable the expertise at our disposal to flourish. It is also vital to our project that Rangers fans are included in our dialogue. We just can’t call ourselves the Scottish Football Monitor if they are largely excluded from participation because they feel they are being treated disrespectfully.
We can’t tolerate the accusations and name calling. We need to stick to what we have done best; factual analysis, conjecture based on known facts and on-line discourse leading to searching questions being asked.
One of the things we are looking at for the near future is to set up some kind of formal and transparent channel of communication between the SFM and the football authorities. Being truly representative of fans will make that easier to achieve.
The MSM will continue to attack the social media outlets. In one way you can understand it. Their jobs are at stake. The business model of the print media in particular has changed massively over the last five years, manifesting itself mainly in increasingly under-resourced newsrooms. Consequently it is besought by increasingly unreliable and under-researched journalism, even to the point where much of it is no longer journalism at all.
By comparison the Blogosphere has access to greater human and time resources, is able to react to unfolding events in real time, and crucially (because it has been eschewed instead of embraced by print media proprietors) has been occupied by ordinary folk with little or no vested interest.
We are still in position to provide a service in our small niche of the on-line world. We have rights to publish and speak freely about our passion, but we also have to live up to the attendant responsibilities, and thus the appeal for discretion on posting comments.
Where Tom English got it completely wrong (in the uniquely ironic way the MSM have about them), is that his industry has mistaken the rights others have earned for them as entitlement, and ignored almost completely the responsibility they had to act on behalf of those who pay their wages.
Repost from other blog.Great post TSFM.
If this possible link has been made before then apoligies,again look at directors names and addresses.
PPG LAND NORMANTON LIMITED
Appointment Date: 05/03/2010
Position: Director
Company Status: Active
Address:
ONE ELEVEN EDMUND STREET
BIRMINGHAM
B3 2HJ
GB
Directors and Secretaries
Mr Michael Scott McGill
Ms Lynne Higgins
Sir David Edward Murray
Mr David William Murray Horne
—————–
UNICORN MUSIC AND DANCE LIMITED
Appointment Date: 01/12/2001
Position: Director
Company Status: Dissolved
Address:
RUTLAND HOUSE
148 EDMUND STREET
BIRMINGHAM
B3 2JR
GB
Directors and Secretaries
Mr Eric John Cater
Mr Martin Randall Flitton
Mr Charles Alexander Green
Mr Paul Edward Rebeiro
Mr John Francis Devaney
Mr Peter Roy Teague
SQUIRE SANDERS SECRETARIES LIMITED
SQUIRE SANDERS DIRECTORS LIMITED
———————–
Could be right next door l guess.
http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/5475/5048/0/dispositif20UEFA-OLA202574.pdf
F.C SION:
Finally, the Panel refers to the fact that OLA signed the entry form in May 2011 according to which OLA accepted to respect UEFA’s statutes, regulations, directives
and decisions, in particular the UEL Regulations and the UEFA DR. Respondent
therefore knew the consequences of playing with players that were ineligible.
(Sion were deducted 3 points for every Cup game ineligible players played in.)
Sorry but what on Earth has the first comment got to do with the blog.
If this is supposed to be a blog, then it should be actual blogs, with relevant comments, which after a time just naturally may drift onto other things.
To “re-post” comments from the previous blog is in my view to do exactly the opposite of what it should be about. To continue on the same topic no matter what the new blog was about.
If this latest blog was about the financial difficulties Hearts currently have, or the business model of a single owner and the difficulties that has would it still have been OK for the first comment to be simply a repeat of something from the last one. Re-directing this conversation back to that one. Why not keep that conversation going in the comments section of the previous blog.
If that is what is wanted then simply have one thread, running on and on forever, with people just keeping adding to it. Though to be fair some forums actually have that. It is not what a blog is about.
To me the first post, and the content of it, just goes to reinforce the view of this not being The Scottish Football Monitor.
I expect plenty of people to disagree. I am entirely comfortable with that.
dear tom, if you think RTC became “bitter and pompous” – can you advise your thoughts on jim traynor, who is “bitter and pompous” permanently but at the licence payers expense ??
Agrajag says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 13:06(Edit)
Sorry but what on Earth has the first comment got to do with the blog.
To me the first post, and the content of it, just goes to reinforce the view of this not being The Scottish Football Monitor.
____________________________________________________________________
I think Robert was worried that the stuff he posted would get lost in the new thread. People do it quite often – and there is a history of it in RTC as well.
Not quite sure how that reinforces “the view of this not being The Scottish Football Monitor.” ?
TSFM says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 13:17
Not quite sure how that reinforces “the view of this not being The Scottish Football Monitor.” ?
=====================================
Because it reinforces the belief that whatever the blogger says then people will just continue to discuss the same things over and over.
Now that may happen eventually anyway, that’s how stream of consciousness works. However the first comment on this blog were simply copied and pasted from the last. So the clear intention is not that a new blog should be developed, simply to continue the previous conversations.
If you can tell me what his comment had to do with the blog you posted I would really appreciate it. I just don’t see it as being relevant to what you posted, in any way.
Let me be clear on this, it’s your blog and if that’s what you want, great. I thought I was actually supporting your piece with what I said, clearly you disagree. Like I said I am entirely comfortable with that. I think it’s a mistake but it is your blog, and therefore your rules.
Many people posting on here and RTC previously, including myself, clealry hoped that the FTTT would find in favour of HMRC. In my view the whole EBT thing is still a ‘sham’ and regardless of what the 2:1 decision says it makes a mockery of all hard working tax payers.
However many people have always pointed out there was the chance that the FTTT could have favoured Rangers, I for one posted a number of times querying how the side letters would be viewed and about what the consequences of the loans being declared ‘legal’ would be. I also entered into debates about whether or not the payments are from third parties. In fact I believe from looking at documents on the web the HMRC’s view is that the trust is irrelevant and the loans should be considered as coming from the employer. To me that could mean that the LNS inquiry could go either way as there is an argument that no third party was involved and the loans did not need to be declared in the same way as normal wages etc.
As Stuart Cosgrove said on both Off the Ball and Your Call yesterday, he called it wrong with regard to the FTT and admits that.
He may not speak for all bloggers but I would like to think his honesty and the stance taken will be reflected in all our future contributions.
That being said, compare us bloggers to the MSM who awarded Keith Jackson the sports journalist of the year award. The same man who claimed Craig Whyte had off the radar wealth. Where was the apology and honesty there?
People in glass houses etc etc.
PS Pity there are not more Rangers fans like Andrew on Your Call last night willing to raise their heads above the parapet. His well reasoned and thoughtful comments did him proud, a true fan but not one blinkered into believing all was rosey in the garden.
Agrajag
I don’t disagree with you at all. I’m just a bit more relaxed about it is all. Yes you were posting in support of the new blog, which is appreciated – and I apologise if my inquiry appeared to ungrateful.
TSFM says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 13:35
Agrajag
I don’t disagree with you at all. I’m just a bit more relaxed about it is all. Yes you were posting in support of the new blog, which is appreciated – and I apologise if my inquiry appeared to ungrateful.
======================
No problem.
I have a simple question though, and please take it in the same spirit.
If people want to keep discussing the previous blog because they fell there is still “mileage” in it then why don’t they just do it. Re-posting comments relating to that, with absolutely no relevance to your latest blog just opens you up to the very accusations you want to avoid. Same old discussions, over and over, and never discussing anything else about Scottish football.
Like I said, please take that in the spirit intended. It is kid of what you were saying.
With regard name calling, that is exactly why I tend to refer to Mr McCoist or Mr Romanov or Mr Traynor. I think it’s just the way I was brought up. In less formal moments I will also use their forename, but I try to avoid some of the silly nicknames people have came up with. To my mind, and I think this is in agreement with you, that also does your blog no favours.
“One of the things we are looking at for the near future is to set up some kind of formal and transparent channel of communication between the SFM and the football authorities”.
From the experience of the posters here, answers are rarely if ever received from the footballing authorities. They do not appear to have an effective means of communicating with individuals who e-mail them or write to them.
I have to say though that during the height of the SPL/SFL discussions about what to do with the leagueless rangers some individual clubs took the trouble to answer e-mails, individually or by a general response.
Back-room briefings and insipid press conferences, where a pointed question risks exclusion of the journalist, are ineffective in getting facts into the open. It took the intervention of Alex Thomson to open up some of the lines of questioning.
I see no evidence yet the Tom English will risk his career in Scotland by asking the uncomfortable questions, the questions that we all want to see put to Mr Black, Mr Red and Mr Green, and that should have been asked long ago. Tom English had ample chance to ask them.
Stuart Cosgrove and Tam Cowan at least have the intelligence and wit to open up the debate, a debate that Mssrs Traynor and Young would love to draw a line under. Tom English needs to decide whether he’s gonnae fly wi the craws.
So good luck to TSFM in pursuing a line of communication with the footballing authorities, we sorely need it.
Agrajag
The discussion under each blog post never has any relevance to the actual blog anyway. It’s just a place to discuss whatever comes up until the next blogpost, then the same chatter moves to that one.
As I have said many times, this is the nature of having the site in blog rather than messageboard form.
I’d much rather it was the latter, but the site owners have opted for the former.
It will always be like this if TSFM remains in the current format, with multiple strands of comment under the same mostly unrelated blog post, so you’d best get used to it.
Redetin,
Yes, they are reluctant to communicate. My point though is that if we can present a temperate, articulate and representative argument to the public, and have high visibility, then it will become difficult for the authorities to ignore us.
There are more ways of communicating than just via the blog in an effort to raise our profile. Public awareness of RTC came about in part because of constant references to it on radio phone-ins. The propaganda aspect (if that it what it is) of these productions is a double-edged sword in that respect.
We may find we have some sympathetic voices in the media as well, and there is nothing to stop us from producing our own Podcasts in an effort to engage with more fans.
Lewis Grassic Gibbon’s classic statement towards the end of Sunset Song that, ‘It was the old Scotland that perished then, and we may believe that never again will the old speech and the old songs, the old curses and the old benedictions, rise but with alien effort to our lips’ would seem to sum up the demise of the MSM in the early C21st as much as it reflected the passing of the traditional way of life in rural Aberdeeenshire in the early C20th.
The coming of the internet has seen the MSM decline – not only in terms of sales – but, more importantly, in terms of influence.
With the 2 v 1 majority verdict ifo Rangers in the BTC, the MSM may feel they won that particular battle; however they know, as we know, that they will ultimately lose the war.
No longer need ordinary people meekly accept what is written by journalists. We can use the internet to freely access material from other sources on finance, politics, sport, whatever.
We are no longer ‘slaves’ to the MSM, we are now the Masters.
Better written, alternative views (“The truth?”) are out there; via the internet we can access it.
With regard to the influence of the MSM, the old Scotland has indeed perished and not a day too soon. And not a tear will be shed at its passing.
Times have changed. We with time must change.
Night Terror says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 13:53
I fully appreciate how it has worked in the past. Like you I think it would be better as a forum as well, but that’s probably because I have more experience using them, and different topics being discussed at the same time. With people who have no interest in that topic simply not posting in it.
However I kind of took it from this blog that the blogger saw things evolving. The name of the blog itself kind of suggests that. To use my opening example, if this blog had been juxtaposing the sole owner model with fan ownership would it still have been OK for people to simply re-post irrelevant comments from the last one. Heading the conversation back down that road, rather than discussing the new topic.
Like I said, if he and the people commenting want to continue operating the same way then I have absolutely no issue with that. It is the interweb and it is for fun. So if that’s what people want to do then cool.
Have to agree with TSFM.
I know sometimes we get fixated on ‘seeing justice done’, but we have to remember that Rangers fans are victims in all of this as well – not in a ‘sly kick when we’re down’ sort of a way, but that they were the ones deceived and lied to by their own board, which was compounded by the MSM refusing to report the truth, and, crucially, still refusing to report it. Having been told that ‘Rangers have been exonerated’, what happens when the tax bill they’ve been told has gone away suddenly crops up in a few weeks, perhaps shorn of several million, but still very much alive?
Again, with Mr Green’s share plan – very few are asking questions, and the fans are sleepwalking their way into it, believing that they are helping their club in some fashion.
I know it can be hard to feel sympathy for them if you frequent some of the more rabid forums, but you have to remember there are decent fans there – they tend to be the ones getting called various unsavoury names for daring to question the guy with the loudest voice.
I always believed that the exposure of Oldco methods of operation were only a sad part of a wider problem; Football’s emergence as a “content” business that transfered the wealth of the many into the hands of the few.
As in any in demand global entertainment sector the exceptionally gifted should be well rewarded and Oldco patently could not compete for such exceptional talents without resorting to creative accounting.
In order for others to not repeat the failings of Oldco of “moonbeam chasing” the full extent of their methods of operation should be documented and understood and the relevent actors exposed.
The latest Paul McConville blog
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/why-its-nonsense-to-say-rangers-won-the-tax-case-so-the-spl-should-drop-its-witch-hunt/comment-page-1/
has attracted interest from the same usual suspects who argued all sorts of deflectinionary literal regulation points previously argued on the RTC blog. Its a huntactic.
P McC sets out the case for continuing with the Nimmo enquiry but I feel a key issue is being missed in the subsequent exchanges.
What is the purpose of the SFA/SPL regulations? Why do all payments have to be declared? Is it for accounting/tax or sporting purposes?.
Given there are bodies responsible or the first, it has to be assumed it is a sporting matter. So what was football trying to do with those registration regulations?
Going back to the days of cash it must have been pretty obvious that players were being attracted to play for one club as opposed to another by the amount of cash on offer. By offering more to a good player the offering club could get an advantage. That was accepted as a market force, but the authorities at least wanted to know what was being offered and that what was being offered was subject to the same restrictions across the board.
Those restrictions were Tax and NI ones and by paying under the counter a club doing so gained the sporting advantage at a much lesser cost than their opponent who had to meet the tax/NI overhead the opposition were avoiding.
In effect the competing club were forced to pay more to attract the services of a player than the club paying under the counter. This was clearly unfair.
Under the counter payments became known as “bungs” , off the record payments offered as inducements to secure services that otherwise would not have been secured and that I submit is why the SFA registration rules exist in their current form.
In days of yore such bungs were delivered in brown envelopes. In 2001 Rangers used ebts as brown envelopes in which to deliver a bung.
Dress it up as legal under tax law all you like, a bung is a bung is a bung. The delivery mechanism is not what matters, players did not covet the envelope, they wanted the contents.
Rangers knew that if they sought approval from the SFA to use ebts back then, they would fall foul of the same rules as they should now, so they did not ask. In doing so they usurped SFA authority, not in error but to avoid the consequences of asking the question they should have – no players would sign without a side letter.
All of this of course comes with the caveat “dark forces notwithsatnding” but if they are excused of illegal football behaviour on the same basis as the FTT, that a loan is not a payment and so cannot be a bung, there can be do no doubt due process and principles are being being turned on their heads by semantics.
It should all be cut and dried, a slam dunk, a shooty in, but in a world where nothing is at it appears, when a loan has no repayment conditions but can still be a loan, who can possibly say what the outcome will be?
Would any of the admins of TSFM be willing to guest on ‘Off The Ball’ to get the ‘ahem’ ball rolling?
The SPL terms of reference I believe set for LN Inquiry are I believe restricted to playing staff. Given the SPL formed in 98 and this EBT scheme has run through most of the SPLs existence, will the FTT `evidence in fact` be employed by the SPL – to widen the scope of the LN enquiry to question the conduct of certain people running that club for a decade. Will the SFA investigate the `evidence in fact` likewise?
Surely there are fundamental lessons of governance with respect to their oversight responsibilities to the League and National Association to minimise the possibility of such events re-occurring.?
Or is that wishful thinking?
Comments in an article in the Observer today by Will Hutton on the impending publication of the Leverson Report resonate with the MSM reporting of the Rangers saga:
“Yes, freedom of speech is the great Enlightenment gift that comes with the freedom to dare to know and to challenge. But it is not a charter for systematic character assassination by powerful media organisations that offer no right of reply, nor redress for mistakes.
The precious freedom of speech of an individual is different from the freedom of speech of a media corporation with its capacity to manipulate the opinions of millions, which is why it must take place within the law and within a framework of accountability. Freedom is not only menaced by the state; it is also menaced by private media barons and their servants, a reality that those doughty, self-anointed champions of freedom, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, never address.
An avalanche of highly spun journalism to serve partisan interests has become habitual. The public realm has become degraded. The trade and craft of journalism has been abused; the journalists who work in newsrooms, where standards are routinely sidelined, need protecting. We must do as much as possible to rebalance the current madnesses. Free societies have rules; otherwise we get the abuses through which we are living.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/25/will-hutton-leveson-report-regulate-press
“An avalanche of highly spun journalism to serve partisan interests has become habitual.” Indeed. I don’t know whether Leverson will make any difference but maybe the rise of the blogosphere will not be the only challenge to the habitual modus operandi in much of the British Press that Hutton refers too?
TSFM
I believe the task of bringing msm into in line in terms of reporting a reality many can buy into as opposed to one created to meet the aims of any narrow group is the genie that has already left the bottle.
Journalist’s views are now savaged/challenged/supported by the online Twitterati who will pick any fallacy to the bone like a school of pirhana, which is why journalists have joined the Twitterati (oh that and to pick up points from intelligent bloggers that might otherwise have evaded their attention). Those msm guys who do not engage, indeed make a virtue of not engaging, will die away as irrelevant or retire (and I wish a certain well known irritating Scottish journalist a long and happy retirement when it comes because he GOOD at irritating).
As regards engaging with football authorities there are already avenues for doing so
http://fansfirstscotland.com
and
http://www.supporters-direct.org/
and these are the channels the SFA will engage with. Best we all amalgamate our approach or we will be picked off.
Football does not want to give up the element of control and unaccountability it enjoys, they seem to think they know best although through the type of intelligent discourse you wish to preserve (I think that in spite of various faults the intelligence and brainpower is evident) I can say with some certainty that some can see the benefits of such an engagement.
Auldheid
Good points.
My own view is that we should have a dialogue with those existing fan groups, and we are hoping to hook up with them soon on another project which is about constructing a Football Index (focusing on transparency, tax policy and fan involvement). However I think our focus is rather different from theirs in that I see the evolution of TSFM as being more of a foil to the print media.
Definitely on the agenda though.
I have read some filth on MSM websites’ comments section – some gets moderated (later rather than sooner) some is allowed to stay – notably oblique references to Scotland’s greatest football manager. This site and many others are better intellectually and morally than many of the newspaper websites. The MSM got a bloody nose with the furore regarding Rangers tax case, the Motherwell Born Billionaire debacle, the Duff and Dufferer administration and subsequent liquidation, the fan solidarity regarding not allowing Newco to parachute into the upper echelons of Scottish football and their subsequent birth into Division 3. They were behind the curve the whole way – however, the surprise result from the FTT has given them a temporary boost. It wont last. Much like Newco hasn’t solved the inherent problems of Oldco, the MSM has fixed nothing of their structural problems and rather than face up to the and deal with them, they go after the medium not the story.
WE won’t go away MSM. Get used to it.
Heads up guys be proud of what RTC did what your involvement with it and of course this blog. You can also be proud of the fact the SPL is the most competitive it has ever been since its inception and you had an influence in that. I challenge you all to sit down and reflect on the fact if not for the presence of this blog and RTC where would Scottish football be today. Here’s to the future.
Re Tom English’s Piece
After Stuart Cosgrove’s mea culpa on yesterday’s Your Call me thinks this is TEs own attempt.
As writer he never fell in totally with the MSM script re The Govan Club tending to sit-on-the fence.
It’s a piece of ingratiation…”OK, can I get in now, boys?”
But at bottom when TGC hit the dust much of Scotland’s power brokers turned to default.
TSFM: “… an historical …”. Please don’t do that. An “h” is an “h” is an “h”, and it doesn’t need an “an”. Acceptable in speech, but not on the written page.
Anyway …
Am I alone in thinking Mr English wasn’t 100 miles wide of the mark with his piece about RTC today?
He gave credit where it was due, and pointed out the shortcomings as he saw them. He seems a reasonable character, and we’re all quick to back him when he highlights failings in the TRFC/RFC camp. Can he really be so right about them and so wrong about us?
As he points out, RTC has vanished. The blog history is gone, the twitter account dried up. Explanations are nowhere to be seen. Unless there are compelling (legal) reasons for this, Mr English is correct to note the apparent moonlight flit.
Personally, I hope all is well with RTC and that his withdrawal is for good reason rather than some form of gagging.
angus1983 says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 16:59
As you say lets hope it is “for a good reason”.
Regardless of the result in the FTT, I have always regarded that as a separate issue to the most important issue that still requires our perseverance for answers! This is after all TSFootballM not the TSFinancialM.
The FTT was a side show and is now being cleverly spun by the MSM that the oldco did nothing wrong. If only our football authorities had investigated the footballing wrong doings of the oldco or even a fraction of the HMRC investigation into their financial affairs, then the SFA, SPL SFL might just have held some credibility but they didn’t and they DONT unless they apply the rules and not by changing them.
All true fans must look for the truth and if MSM aren’t going to ask then, it’s up to us to keep pressure on the football authorities and MSM till we get it.This site enables us to do so.
So the next step in the MSM master plan is league reconstruction because “they say” we need it or the game will die………let’s just see at the end of the season if its required or not, I am sure that Hibs, Aberdeen, Hearts, Motherwell etc etc and any other team that could be chasing Celtic (if they are in pole position come the end of the season) won’t be complaining that much, instead of the usual two horse race it had become over the years.
The fact is most fans should or do see it for what it is, and it comes across as lets change the rules because it happened to Rangers, if this had been any other club within the SPL the rules that we had in place would have been applied no questions asked.
If we have league construction then the current incumbents must have nothing to do with it, let the clubs and the fans decide how we want the reconstruction to happen not people who have ruined our national game over many years and that includes our national team also.
it doesn’t matter what is printed and who is currently running our game………
its the FANS who keep our clubs alive and its the FANS that buy the papers without the FANS and our power not thiers they will have nothing. So if we are serious about change let us change it , HOW ? a demonstration outside the SFA to start with.
Phil MacG and Paul McConville keep plugging away, so the bampots live to fight another day. The RTC deletion is a loss, though. Tom English has been back and forth on this issue, quite amusing on the claims of the bold Charlie Green last week, but sounding a bit churlish re RTC this week. He’s normally pretty readable but he was making himself sound as bitter as Traynor on Twitter.
martybhoy says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 17:27
Marty this blog will survive as long as it it continues to be relevant and there are issues to be addressed and if it inclusive of supporters of all clubs including Rangers. It may have to change and evolve going forward.
P McC explains the appeal procedure:
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/how-to-appeal-from-the-first-tier-tribunal-tax-to-the-upper-tribunal/
Point for discussion, alluded to by Mr English – readers of this blog are unwilling to see any point of view other than their own.
To witness this effect, try posting an opinion that doesn’t fit with e.g. Rangers = Bad, RTC/TSFM = a shining beacon of light. Give it a couple of hours, and then count your TUs and TDs. I have mentioned this before.
TRFC supporters will never be attracted here (and I wish they would be) until we’re able to see their point of view. At this time, I believe the majority can’t.
angus1983 says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 18:20(Edit)
Point for discussion, alluded to by Mr English – readers of this blog are unwilling to see any point of view other than their own.
To witness this effect, try posting an opinion that doesn’t fit with e.g. Rangers = Bad, RTC/TSFM = a shining beacon of light. Give it a couple of hours, and then count your TUs and TDs. I have mentioned this before.
TRFC supporters will never be attracted here (and I wish they would be) until we’re able to see their point of view. At this time, I believe the majority can’t.
____________________________________________________________________
With respect Angus, what arrant nonsense. I don’t doubt that there is an element of groupthink involved here, but those who jolt us out that are usually treated with respect. If they are not, the mods’ job is to deal with those who don’t give anyone a hearing.
As far as the Rangers fans are concerned, trolls aside, they have been treated with a good deal of respect. There are too few of them for sure and one of the main intentions in my post today was to make it clear that we have to find room and a welcome for them. There are many strong willed and opinionated characters who post here, and anyone will have a hard job changing their minds about things – mainly because most of us have engaged in a bit of thinking before arriving at our opinions. That’s just the politics of it. People can agree or disagree all they want, but respect has to be the number one priority.
For the life of me I can’t understand why anyone, I mean anyone at all, gets hung up on TUs or TDs. I only ever look at them on my own posts if I have asked for them as a straw poll. Otherwise who cares?
TDs are not a vehicle for opprobrium, they are an indication of how far that comment strays from the consensus – and from my point of view that makes it interesting enough to read.
angus1983
Most TRFC fans are not equipped for debate on this forum.
The suggestion that their club is being liquidated through gross mismanagement by Murray and Whyte is readily dismissed as Timmy propaganda. They are more inclined to accept the teachings of Leggat, Graham et al, which profess that a huge conspiracy involving SFA,SPL and Celtic led to their downfall.
Whenever faced with facts about their clubs finances they respond with tiresome and baffling references to child abuse.
I can understand that under the weight of such overwhelming wrong-doing, they can find it difficult to defend, but a little contrition would go a long way.
People who were supposed to be representing the interests of Rangers FC have let the club down – and I include Directors, all those who were recipients of EBT’s, the weak administrators who done nothing, the MSM who ate succulently, and the Rangers fans who’s behaviour and beliefs that made them so disliked. That’s a lot of people.
That said, I do agree this site can become very anti-Rangers on occasion. I appreciate people want to see justice done, the good guys win. I was even accused one of being a “troll” because I put forward my opinion, and what I felt was a balanced view. I am not a Rangers fan. Neither am I a Rangers hater. I simply believe that Rangers cheated, and justice should be done.
A new club called Rangers now play in Scottish Football. Whether they can claim the 140yr history or not, I don’t care. If they hold the old Rangers membership then I believe they can (this was the opinion that led to my “troll” accusation). They are a massive club if they are 140yrs or 1yr old. It doesn’t matter. It is the 49,000 fans that turn up to cheer on the team that matter.
As long as new Rangers play by the rules, I look forward to seeing them in the top league sometime in the not too distant future. As a Celtic fan I also hope their team is rubbish when they get there, but that’s the way it should be.
The majority of the supporters of Sevco and it’s predecessor by and large do not want to engage in debate
In their eyes, if you do not agree with their vision of the world, then you are against them
There is no middle ground, no room for discussion or debate
Martybhoy at 18:29 gives a good example of the type of rhetoric that will prevent this blog from attaining credibility.
I would hope he wrote it for the purpose of giving an example of how not to post rather than being serious.
stmiley says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 18:41
Headlines attributed to Mr McCoist “No one can call us cheats now” certainly shows no sign of contritition or an understanding oh how the accusation was raised
Martybhoy at 19:02
I think you´d be happier posting on a Celtic supporters site and with that attitude I think the TSFM would be happier too.
martybhoy says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 19:02
3 5 Rate This
Greenockjack; You are entitled to your ‘point of view’.
One suspects it has a hue of blue.
Revisionists and apologists still exist for the Khmer Rouge.
Maybe their PR skills will be studied by the Klan Bleu?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, do we need a new law? Or does Godwin’s still cover it?
angus1983 says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 18:20
1 0 Rate This
Point for discussion, alluded to by Mr English – readers of this blog are unwilling to see any point of view other than their own.
To witness this effect, try posting an opinion that doesn’t fit with e.g. Rangers = Bad, RTC/TSFM = a shining beacon of light. Give it a couple of hours, and then count your TUs and TDs …
———–
Angus,
There aren’t many who dare risk the dreaded TDs 🙂
I believe what Tom English was referring to was the piling on of misery on RFC and the joyous gloating at the club’s demise. Watching a slow-motion car crash is not normally pleasant, no matter the reasons or the karma involved. It was very marked when I first stumbled onto RTC. Of course, it was small beer compared to the horrendous threats that have been referenced on RM. But still, it was an ethos that did the blog no favours. It’s also coming back to bite RTC and TSFM. Whether or not we believe it was merely perceived as such, the important thing is to try to see ourselves as others see us.
In retrospect, it may have been better if RTC contributers had been vetted, or if membership had been by invitation. That way the high standard of blog posts would have been maintained and the P&B contributions avoided. But that would have been censorship too extreme perhaps?.
Nevertheless, a lot of us read more than we post. And I reckon RTC would still have had a significant effect without people just being able to log in and let their tummy rumble.
Don’t see RFC fans flocking to TSFM anytime soon. I think those of us who once had – or still have – tenuous links to Ibrox are few. And the effect of last week’s decision will probably increase polarisation in the short term. But it’s still the biggest domestic sports drama ever – and still with no end in sight.
Could be an idea with a number of blog posts active and the homepage merely showing links to current blogs and their threads. That way we could keep other issues alive as Agrajag was mentioning today. I expect reconstruction and reform is at least as important an issue for most fans as the various issues surrounding TRFC.
TSFM – why do you say the Tom English article is bitter? I was on RTC since the start and enjoyed a lot of what he had to say, but I do think Tom English has some very good points to make. Have you heard of the “cult of personality”?
Martybhoy at 20:00
My surname isn´t Irvine.
All I say is that people should listen to what TSFM is saying and make an effort to be as objective as possible and not indulge in unnecessary language which might discouage a wider spectrum of posters that in turn would give more credibility to the blog.
Sorry,
Here’s the link:
https://twitter.com/BBCSporf/status/272781720011563008/photo/1
Man Utd in the dock?.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/nov/25/manchester-united-tax-glazer-brothers
Danish Angus
For many of us, who didn’t (and still don’t) want to see Rangers disappear completely, the Jardine/MCCoist “Who are these people” days of rage were a watershed moment.
That appalling and calculated behaviour did more than anything else to harden attitudes amongst otherwise moderately inclined fans. While many struggle to understand how the FTT result was arrived at, the catalogue of quite outrageous behaviour by those acting on behalf of RFC contained in the FTT report, means that it is unlikely that there will be a forgiving attitude amongst many non rangers fans any time soon.
It was Rangers men and Rangers fans who sowed the dragon’s teeth, I am afraid that we will all be reaping the whirlwind for quite sometime to come.
On RTC there were certainly many who came on to gloat about what was happening, or indeed, mistook it for yet another Celtic website and would post all sorts of rubbish, but by the same token, there were many who objected to such schadenfreude.
From what I recall, the general consensus was that we just wanted the rules applied ‘without fear or favour’. In fact, most expressed their hope that were Rangers to ‘pay their dues’ and drop the baggage, then they would be welcomed back to the SPL with open arms when the time came.
I, for one, hope that HMRC get a move on and formalize an appeal to the Upper TT: some of “reporting” we have seen from the MSM this week following the FTT decision has been nauseating, and looks like continuing for some time yet.
HMRC have known the FTT result for a number of weeks now, so what is delaying their decision (one way or the other)?
Does anyone know if the Creditors meeting with BDO scheduled for the 4th of December, has any bearing on what HMRC’s next move will be?
fanclubcharity says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 20:04
TSFM – why do you say the Tom English article is bitter? I was on RTC since the start and enjoyed a lot of what he had to say, but I do think Tom English has some very good points to make. Have you heard of the “cult of personality”?
—————————————————————————–
Someone posted earlier some examples of a things that appeared her occasionally which might justify some of English’s points and I replied that these might be valid but only with caveats.
For instance TE’s article made it seem like the blog had descended completely into anti-Rangers rants, which just wasn’t true. There were times when it – briefly – got a bit out of control but usually quickly got back on track.
I know in a brief article you have to be concise in what you say but it doesn’t absolve you of misleading by omission. But then saying that the blog didn’t really get totally out of order and that RTC had stated he intended to close down anyway doesn’t fit in with the “rise and fall” theme he’d set out to write. A “rise and then got a bit full of itself and went a bit OTT but was still pretty interesting and informative despite that and then stopped when it had said it would” doesn’t quite have the same ring, does it?
I followed RTC and now TSFM and agree that to encourage fans of all clubs to participate in the blog it must be inclusive and appropriate language must be the starting point for debate to flourish.
scapaflow14 says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 20:25
3 0 Rate This
Danish Angus
For many of us, who didn’t (and still don’t) want to see Rangers disappear completely, the Jardine/MCCoist “Who are these people” days of rage were a watershed moment.
That appalling and calculated behaviour did more than anything else to harden attitudes amongst otherwise moderately inclined fans. While many struggle to understand how the FTT result was arrived at, the catalogue of quite outrageous behaviour by those acting on behalf of RFC contained in the FTT report, means that it is unlikely that there will be a forgiving attitude amongst many non rangers fans any time soon.
It was Rangers men and Rangers fans who sowed the dragon’s teeth, I am afraid that we will all be reaping the whirlwind for quite sometime to come.
———-
I don’t disagree with you scapa. Turned us all off. So there’s the dilemma: wanting an inclusive blog, hoping that the ‘Andrew from Bridge of Weir’ types turn up and not the Chris Grahams of this world.
monsierbuddy – agreed, it didn’t descend into absolute anarchy but I think Tom English is quite right to say that, near the end, RTC was dispelling of opinion as if it was complete fact and that nobody else’s opinion mattered. He/she was in such a rush to pronounce MIH/RFC as losing the EBT case that he got the result wrong.
It’s a bit ironic that on what should have been RTC’s moment to proffer more words of wisdom on the BTC that he has packed up and gone AWOL. What’s even more ironic is that the person who appears to have done the most “shredding” in this whole story is RTC himself!
martybhoy says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 20:35
Give the guy a chance. Someone disagrees with you and you label them Jack Irvine from the off?!? isn’t that the favoured tactics of RM etc.?
If he is that sort, then it’ll come out in time anyway. It always does, but until such time, give the guy a chance.
I disagree with Tom English about the why RTC took on the tone that he criticises.
It was not from bitterness but that over the period of the blog’s lifetime the evidence that unfolded and Rangers response to the situation they had put themselves in created a moral certitude by most bloggers that they had done wrong.
The decision of the FTT has done nothing to change that and it was refreshing to hear that at least one Rangers man phoned Traynor on Sportsound to affirm that view.
The absolute aversion to admitting wrong doing and the extent of that wrong interests me in terms of why it is so. The attempt to get the Nimmo enquiry stopped is symptomatic of this mindset. If wrong doing could be admitted it could be forgiven, until then the prevailing natural attitude whatever club (bar the Rangers) that we are supporters of will be “hell mend them”.
It is certainly making the effort.
Where we are reminds me of post WWI Germany where the myth that they had been stabbed in the back created the conditions that enabled old Adolf to draw not only Germany but the whole of Europe into a second world war.
This stabbed in the back myth needs to be exposed for the myth that it is before it creates further mayhem and I hope more Rangers supporters like the guy who phoned speak up.
There can be no forgiveness or moving on until the wrong doing is admitted.
Adam
November 25, 2012 at 5:37 pm
“the bloggers have been bang on with all the outcomes” – Are you sure about that Mick ?
Ticketus are not in the picture.
3 7 i Rate This
IS IT HIM ?????????
Reply
Auldheid (@Auldheid) @ 21:05
I think you know within in yourself, that those who support Sevco and the now defunct RFC(IL) will never admit to any wrong doing
They see themselves as the injured party, and far from apologising, are demanding apologies from all of those that they think have wronged them
They cannot see, nor can they accept that the only people who have wronged them, are those that they trusted to run their club
The FTT result has only stoked up their sense of injustice
Sigh. Ticketus are out of the game. They are suing Whyte to make him good on his personal guarantees.
I think whilst we’re all in hair shirt mode tonight, it might be worth reminding people that the tax case became almost a sideshow – it was what unfolded between the case coming to light (if we remember, Murray denied there even being a tax case) and the result being published that ended up becoming the focus of the blog – the distortion of our game, the attempted intimidation of the SFL with, frankly, lies, and the rules being bent so far out of shape to try to accomodate Newco that it leaves the SFA very exposed.
This seems to be overlooked in the rush to demonise the RTC website in the press.
It would seem strenuous efforts are being made to shut off any serious examination of the affairs of RFC PLC or its successor.
Whose purpose would be best served by that?
No one paid attention when “internet bampots” predicted that the Murray empire was in severe financial difficulty and that this would impact on RFC. Were the bampots right?
No one paid attention when the bampots predicted that the scale of the Big Tax Case could sink RFC. Were the bampots right? (Note: Despite the verdict, it was the threat of the mammoth bill that guided the actions of Murray and Whyte).
No one paid attention when the bampots revealed that Whyte was a shyster who would liquidate RFC and predicted that he’d sold off their season tickets to pay for his takeover. Were the bampots right?
And now the bampots are predicting that Green’s IPO could be a disaster and that FC Sevco is already heading for a cash crisis. Will they be right?
Who knows.
But what I do know is that Rangers would not have gone bust if true Rangers fans had listened to those bampots and taken pre-emptive action to save their club – rather than react by attacking the messengers (for wearing the wrong colour of scarf) and trusting subserviently to the “Man in the Big Hoose”.
For what it’s worth, I don’t believe RFC, in whatever form, will ever approach the status they believe is theirs by right until they get people into their boardroom who can approach, for transparent corporate achievement, those currently guiding the fortunes of their greatest rivals, Celtic.
That day will come, I’m sure of that. But it’s not even on the horizon yet. Not by a long chalk.
I am still baffled about how anyone sees the published FTT ruling as a victory for Rangers.
It may have been a partial win in relation to the tax due, but as discussed before it just means that they went into liquidation owing HMRC £20m+ that they couldn’t afford anyway, rather than a larger amount that they could not pay.
At the same time it was damning of the club and it’s actions towards both the tax authorities and the footballing authorities. It spoke of their lying, cheating, obfuscation and procrastination. The club and it’s officers were publicly trashed.
it also did nothing to assist with the SPL enquiry, if anything it made the situation much worse. Openly discussing how the football authorities had been lied to and how contract details and side letters hidden.
If that was a victory in the eyes of Rangers (IL), the fans of the former club, and the MSM then it was the most pyrrhic one imaginable. The outcome could be much worse than a simple tax bill to be written off by the liquidators anyway.
The independent lawyers said there was a prima facie case they cheated.
The FTT detailed how they seem to have systematically cheated.
It is now down to the Lord Nimmo Smith to rule on that from the SPL’s perspective.
Some victory, a reduced tax bill you weren’t able to pay anyway, at the cost of your reputation and heritage trashed forever and some people see that as good.
Wow, just wow!
For what it’s worth I think English’s article was in essence nonsense. There were a range of bloggers on RTC and the anger when directed was rarely if ever st Rangers fans but with the refusal of both Rangets and the MSM to explain the truth. That still remains. I feel sympathy with some Rangers fans still and they ate unquestionably the ones to suffer most in all of this. That sympathy is tempered by their defiance,
their denial and the pandering to the dangerous obnoxious and
aggressively sectarian in their midsts.
This blog and RTC should not move either on to the defensive or offensive. Nor should we engage in excessive naval gazing. It remains a source of information and links to other sites. It is at present operating on a mindset of confusion and didbelief yet has still provided the only source of deconstruction of the truth of the FTTT judgement. Indeed far from wondering as to wherr we go next the last week has shown the strength and vibrancy of the blog. Keep on keeping on.
johnboy5088 says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 21:35
John, I’d say currently that Celtic shouldn’t be their role model – St Johnstone should be. In fact, they should be the role model of most teams in Scotland. You cut your cloth according to your material, and don’t put the existence of your club at risk. It wasn’t doing that that got them into their difficulties in the first place.
Celtic are very dependent on being in Champions League every season, and that’s not a good position to be in. They can sustain themselves outside of it for a season or two, but you only need to look at the way that Celtic’s debt has gone when they weren’t able to participate.
BTW, that’s not to say that I don’t agree with you about the corporate side of things. There’s no doubt that Celtic are very good at exploiting commercial opportunities, even if a defeat in a friendly against the European champions in America sees them labelled ‘Celts in Crisis’….
I don’t believe the popularity of this site will decrease in the foreseeable future.
The quality of contribution on here is consistently high, and allowances must be made for feelings running high from,time to time. The game is nothing without passion.
There are many issues to keep this going, not least:-
Rangers Tax Case
We will know shortly if an appeal is being made; the mood music from HMRC is positive at present but let’s see. If they do, then this whole issue will keep going for another couple of years.
What we need to press for is any appeal to be held in public, not a squalid “closed door” event and then anonymity granted in a situation where it meets none of the criteria for either being held behind closed doors or anonymity being granted.
It really was ironic of Murray to squeal like a stuck pig about leaks – what did he expect when he tried to hide all of his dirty washing behind the cloak of anonymity? There were many people disgusted that the truth was so concealed from the public.
If the case is appealed and does go to the Upper Tier, then the calibre of judge will be on an entirely different level and they won’t necessarily be Scottish males with all the connotations that brings.
SPL Enquiry
Despite the pleadings from Charlotte Square and Ibrox, there is every reason for this enquiry to continue to its logical conclusion.
Nothing that has been alleged in terms of breaking the football rule book has been dis-proven in the written judgement of the FTT; quite the opposite in fact.
MSM
There is still energy and great pressure we can bring to change the tried and weary ways of the MSM, written, audio, internet and visual and give us a press we can be proud of.
In particular we need to focus on those who should know and do better – English, Forsyth, Speirs – and get them to up the game from the 4th tier sort of stuff they have served up over the past year, when they have been happy to be led rather than take the lead. Being a thinking man’s Mark Hateley is not exactly a commendation. There is not much we can do about the truculent bams except boycott their media in all its forms.
In terms of the BBC, it is a public service broadcaster, so if the public feel it is not serving them as it should, then the public can make its feelings known.
This is where I feel we have most clout – we need to strongly support the vibrant, independent voices on the airwaves of Sportsound and campaign to get rid of the tired, old, compromised bores.
In my view into the former category come Jim Spence, Richard Gordon, Stuart Cosgrove and, yes, even Al Lamont. He’s made some mistakes recently but he has youth on his side as mitigation. I also include Tom English who frankly is a much better broadcaster than he is writer. I think with his writing he has too much time to think
Into the latter category fall (stumble?) Traynor, Young, Rob McLean, Billy Dodds, Gordon Smith, Craig Paterson and Stephen Craigan.
If we could mount a concerted campaign to drive up the level of debate, discourse and comment on that forum, we would really have achieved something. When a satirical programme like Only An Excuse fails to live down to the people it is meant to be satirising, then the game really is a bogey.
So, much still to play for and comment on. Unlike many, I think in time this past week will come to represent not a stunning reversal of fortune for Rangers but actually the briefest of respites before the downward plunge in its reputation and that of its past owners resumes with a vengeance.
Ad multos annos
Apologies for mass of typos in my last post. Not too good on Samsung touchpad. Truth will out. In next couple of weeks the limitations of Rangers “victory” will percolate the mainsttream. A quieter spell will then ensue.
I’ve removed a couple of posts which were merely bickering between two posters. Get a room.
I’ve also, sadly, had to remove a couple of posts which are using exactly the kind of language which I asked people to refrain from using.
If you need it explained guys, you really need to go somewhere else.
martybhoy says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 21:37
1 2 Rate This
Johnbhoy75; Do you believe what you have just typed?
Yes I do. I am a fund manager. I am very familiar with Venture Capital Trusts and Enterprise Investment Schemes. I am also somewhat familiar with Octopus.
The losses in Rangers are small fry to their overall portfolio. (2.7% of ca. £1 BN)
The fund managers would have received their fixed percentage (usually about 6%) regardless of whether the fund makes profits or losses.
The investors would have made large profits from their income tax relief. £1 invested in an EIS or VCT usually gets a relief of 25% to 30%. A loss of 2.7% from the Rangers debacle is acceptable in this context.
In fact, Octopus are under pressure from HMRC to demonstrate that their investments are not sham risk free vehicles that facilitate tax avoidance but are indeed within the spirit of the regulation, i.e. they invest in entrepreneurial and risky businesses. The losses from Rangers will go a long way in this cause.
VCT Managers have to jump through a large number of hoops from the FSA and HMRC to demonstrate that they are kosher. Their clients are retail, yes usually high net worth individuals via IFAs, but retail nonetheless. They are regulated. e.g. They would not be allowed to invest in a non approved startup like Green’s Sevco consortium. They would also not be allowed to operate a side pot for someone like Minty or Dave King wanting to recoup their investment. The numbers involved would be too small for them. The FSA would come down on them like a ton of bricks – they would be shut down.
The fund managers themselves have made no losses. It is HMRC that has lost again. Profits are privatised and losses are socialised.
In fact the biggest loss for Octopus has been their reputational risk. This is why they need to be seen to be doing something. They will go through the motions of suing Whyte etc but it will be half hearted.
I know it would make a brilliant story for Ticketus to still be in there. Minty, King and Whyte behind them. Sevco burdened with £40M of debt. All fantasy and wishful thinking I’m afraid.
Test
Panorama programme tomorrow night with an expose on tax avoidance/evasion schemes.
Johnbhoy75 (@Johnbhoy75) says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 22:12
I guessed some time ago that you (and others) represent the Ticketus interests on this blog Not a problem unlike some other blogs Freedom of speech applies to all
RTC also had posters representing D&P and no doubt Media House and others
Of course the Ticketus involvement in the Green deal is a matter of opinion at the moment but it will soon be a matter of fact
If Ticketus declare themselves a Creditor of RFC on 3 Dec then they have lost their £40m ST contract and will get next to nothing
If I had invested in RFC STs with Ticketus 2 LLP and lost 100% (not 2.7%) of my investment I would be fairly annoyed to say the least
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 15:20
As regards engaging with football authorities there are already avenues for doing so
http://fansfirstscotland.com
and
http://www.supporters-direct.org/
and these are the channels the SFA will engage with. Best we all amalgamate our approach or we will be picked off.
************
Sorry auldheid, but I think that Supporters Direct lost all credibility when they did not state one single word about the implosion of RFC over the summer and not only that but actively avoided it at a Scottish level for one reason only – fear – and at a UK level for a different reason – complete and utter indifference. Compare how quickly they became involved in Hearts this month…
They have been funded for three years to develop a Scottish Football Fans forum to be the official conduit and link between fans, governing bodies and government and they have spectacularly failed. They should have been a voice of reason and, indeed, a rallying point for decent RFC fans but they, like the MSM, chose to impersonate the three wise monkeys out of fear of the mob.
…which would be my main riposte to Tom English and any other accuser: those who have failed to see, hear or speak over the past 18 months should reflect on their own behaviour and work before casting any aspertions.
Yes, there may have been some wild conspiracy theories, partisanship and even the odd OTT comment, however, both RTC and TSFM have (by and large) been bastions of decency and reasoned and (even) intelligent debate which is more than can be said of anything in the MSM (outwith Mark Daly). I have seen comments on just about every MSM website which would not be allowed either here or on RTC and I think Tom English should remember that RTC frequently admonished or banned transgressors and stood up for RFC fans who came with genuine interest and comment. Can he say the same for the MSM and even his own newspaper? I challenge him to name one single article by RTC which fits with his rather bitter and twisted memory.
The truth is not a commodity to be brokered, traded, hidden or ignored. It is neither part-time nor temporary. It is the light that guarantees democracy and freedom, and I would suggest that Tom English sits himself down one evening soon and watches “Mr Smith Goes to Washington” to get an idea why he and his ilk and others have spectacularly failed Scotland and all of its people.
There does seem a weird irony when the MSM see tax avoidance as a virtue,still we probably get the press we deserve as a society…………………the MSM days are numbered(as circulation figures confirm) and this could be one of the last hurrahs of the sports desks frantically trying to justify their existence in a world thats moved on.
Johnbhoy75 (@Johnbhoy75) says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 22:12
The investors would have made large profits from their income tax relief. £1 invested in an EIS or VCT usually gets a relief of 25% to 30%. A loss of 2.7% from the Rangers debacle is acceptable in this context.
==================
I don’t understand this sort of reasoning.
The RFC loss by Ticketus may be only 2.7% of the total funds run by Octopus, but surely individual investors were invested specifically in Ticketus? And if they were, they have lost 100% of their money? They will get tax relief at 30%, but that tax relief is in no way a profit. If I invest 100k, and lose the lot, then 30k tax relief just reduces my loss to 70k. As an investor I would be very far from happy, especially if no action was being taken to recover my money. A loss of 2.7% may be acceptable to Octopus, but not to me if my entire life savings are part of the 2.7%
Or maybe I’ve just totally misunderstood how investment in Ticketus works, if so, please enlighten me.
Danish Pastry says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 20:51
You have to welcome both. There can’t be any shibboleths, the funny hand shakes and secret passwords,are best left to those who get a kick out of that sort of thing.
Or perhaps the true shibboleth should be a willingness to engage in a positive debate about the future of Scottish Football.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20451176
Tax evasion flourishing with help from UK firms Tax evasion costs the UK taxpayer an estimated £4bn a year Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
Tax evasion aided by global inertia
When is tax dodging illegal?
Wealthy ‘hiding’ at least $21tn
A flourishing industry which helps people evade UK tax has been uncovered following an investigation by the BBC’s Panorama programme.
One company formation firm said the odds of getting caught by the UK tax authorities are roughly equivalent to winning the lottery.
The programme secretly filmed corporate service providers offering services that would break the law.
Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs says tackling tax evasion is a priority.
Tax evasion costs the UK taxpayer an estimated £4bn a year.
‘Sham directors’
Secret filming by the BBC as part of a joint investigation with the Guardian newspaper and the Washington-based International Consortium of Investigative Journalists identified a number of corporate service providers – firms that specialise in setting up companies both in the UK and abroad – willing to facilitate tax evasion and turn a blind eye to criminal activity.
Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
What I’m shocked by… is the apparent ease with which you’ve discovered these people”
End Quote
Tristram Hicks
Money laundering expert
In one instance, an undercover reporter posing as a businessman with £6m in undeclared income sitting in a Swiss bank account is advised to move his money into a complex structure involving an anonymous foundation in the tax haven of Belize, which he would control in secret.
James Turner of Turner Little in York, which specialises in forming companies, assured the undercover reporter that his company already had 10,000 of these structures up and running with secrecy guaranteed.
“We’ve had Inland Revenue investigations on clients that have used companies like this… and they haven’t got to the money,” Mr Turner said during secret filming.
The complicated structure proposed by Mr Turner also involved the use of nominee directors to help keep the undercover reporter’s name off company paperwork.
Nominee directors can be legitimately appointed to run companies on behalf of others. But according to James Turner, his nominees would not be running anything at all.
In other words, they would be a sham.
“They won’t even know that they are a director, they just get paid,” he said, adding that the directors’ signatures could be provided simply by using a stamp.
Continue reading the main story
Panorama: Find out more
Darragh MacIntyre presents Undercover: How to Dodge Tax
BBC One, Monday, 26 November at 20:30 GMT
Then available in the UK on the BBC iPlayer
Jonathan Fisher QC, one of the UK’s leading barristers specialising in white collar crime cases, said that what was being proposed would break the law.
“If this proceeded and the company was set up and it was set up in the way in which it is being discussed, then plainly some very serious criminal offences would be committed.”
Those potential offences would be helping to cheat the revenue and launder the proceeds of crime.
Mr Turner denied any allegations of criminal misconduct. Turner Little said it takes its statutory and regulatory obligations seriously but said that once an internal investigation has been completed, if appropriate, it will take action.
Panorama also discovered corporate service providers offering to appoint sham directors to UK companies. UK law states that directors are responsible for the companies they run and should know what those companies are doing.
‘Sark Lark’
The use of sham directors was supposed to have been stamped out in the late 1990s after a scandal on the Channel Island of Sark.
In what became known as the “Sark Lark” one islander was discovered to be the director of more than 1,300 companies. Between them, the 600 inhabitants of the island held 15,000 directorships. New laws have reduced that to fewer than 50 posts today.
But the Panorama investigation found that the Sark Lark is not dead – rather it has moved and gone global.
One corporate service provider based in Dubai, Atlas Corporate Services, showed a list of its 19 nominee directors to one of Panorama’s undercover reporters.
The programme discovered they had held more than 6,000 UK company directorships. The company involved said there is nothing unlawful in Dubai about the use of nominee professional directors.
‘Tip of iceberg’
Panorama also approached other firms posing as the representative of corrupt Indian government figures who wanted to invest in the UK.
Russell Lebe, Managing Director of Ready Made Companies Worldwide in Bushey Heath, Hertfordshire, told an undercover reporter that, if approached by the Indian authorities about tax evasion, “we wouldn’t give a monkey’s”.
HMRC confirmed it has not prosecuted any corporate service providers in the UK
Despite being told that the fictional clients were earning “commissions” on government contracts that they wanted to move offshore, Mr Lebe said he would be content not to know their identities and even agreed that the undercover reporter could front for them by pretending to be the owner.
“There’ll be no emails and nothing in writing to say that anyone else is the owner and it’ll all go under your name. Absolutely fine,” he told the reporter.
Ready Made Companies Worldwide said they would not provide company formation services if they knew or suspected they would be used to launder the proceeds of crime or defraud tax authorities.
As a precautionary measure, they said they have asked a law firm to review their procedures and will provide staff with further training.
Former Metropolitan Police Detective Superintendent Tristram Hicks, a leading expert on money laundering, said: “What I’m shocked by, and concerned by, is the apparent ease with which you’ve discovered these people.
“It tells you that maybe it is the tip of the iceberg that you have discovered by scratching the surface and that our regulation regime is not catching enough people.”
In a statement, HM Revenue and Customs, which regulates the 2,467 registered trust or company service providers in the UK, said most in the industry have nothing to do with criminal activity.
But it did confirm that it has never prosecuted a single corporate service provider for breaching money laundering regulations.
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Should point out that I looked back both pages and these hadn’t been posted, although the news there is the panorama issue tomorrow RE same issue has been posted.
martybhoy says:
Sunday, November 25, 2012 at 22:44
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Other posters have disagreed with Johnbhoy75 but treated him with respect. I haven’t disagreed – simply because I don’t have the knowledge to do so and am grateful for their input to let me see both sides of the argument. I think I come down on their side but in no way do I think Johnbhoy75 is a troll.